Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2090: How to Be a Shobae

Episode Date: November 26, 2023

Ben Lindbergh talks to Portia, proprietor of super-popular Shohei Ohtani fan account @shoheisaveus, about her Ohtani superfan origin story, life as a self-described “Shobae,” Ohtani’s popularity compared to other athletes and celebrities, following Ohtani from 15 time zones away, stanning a private person, the many mysteries of Ohtani, where the Shobaes would prefer for Ohtani […]

Baseball is a simulation, it's all just one big conversation, Effectively Wild. Hello and welcome to episode 2090 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, not joined today by my co-host Meg Raleigh, who is wisely practicing what she preached last time about the importance of taking some time off for the holidays. I, however, have not heeded her advice. It's the weekend after Thanksgiving, and I'm showing my thanks by giving you this episode. Hope you'll like it. I'm pretty sure you'll like the two great guests who have assisted slash enabled me today. You know, on Friday, Mets broadcaster Howie Rose briefly caused a stir by tweeting, hearing there might be Otani news today. And then less than an hour later,

but lots of likes and retweets later, added, operative terms might end today. Hearing now it was premature. No misdirection intended. Well, at least people are paying attention. Don't worry, Howie, premature transaction affects many men. And yes, people are always paying attention to Shohei Otani, as we often do on Effectively Wild. And we could wake up every day and say, there might be Otani news today. I can promise you an Otani segment on this episode. This is going to be an extremely off-season edition of Effectively Wild, folks, hopefully in a positive way. To end the episode, we're going to discuss the end of life, specifically baseball players' lives, with Sam Gagejack. Sam runs the blog RIP Baseball, where he writes about every baseball player who dies,

which I'm sad to say is every baseball player eventually. He also visits and documents and spruces up baseball grave sites. Maybe it's macabre, but it's beautiful and fascinating too. And I have long wondered what motivates him. But we will lead with a lighter topic. You know I'm interested not just in the baseball on the field, but also in the culture surrounding baseball, the ways that people pursue their passions through and for this sport. In Sam's case, it's a passion for a particular area of research. But in the case of my first guest today,

it's a passion for a particular player, a passion I share. Without Meg's mildly moderating influence, I'm going deeper down the road of two-way player preoccupation, which is not premature preoccupation. And I'll be bringing you a conversation with someone I consider to be one of the world's foremost experts on Shohei Otani. Her name is Portia, and she's a woman in the Philippines who operates one of the most popular Shohei Otani fan slash stan accounts on the internet at Shohei Save Us on Twitter. Someone who has taught me a ton about Otani through her constant coverage of all aspects of his past and performance and personality. I have never talked to Portia before, but we've

corresponded on occasion for years. I wrote a little bit about her in a Ringer article on Otani in 2021. And when I wanted info on Otani's new dog and his history with pets, I consulted Portia, the Oracle of Otani. Portia has never seen Otani play in person. She was living in China during the pandemic. She couldn't come to the US. She hopes to attend an Otani game in 2024. But even from afar, she is one of the most plugged in people in Otani fandom. She is a self-described showbae. If you sign Otani this offseason, you don't just get him and whatever win value he produces. You also get the showbae's attention to your team. And a lot of that attention on Twitter comes from Portia, whose account is an Otani

content clearinghouse. She used to be a big J-pop fan. She speaks Japanese. She's done dubbing professionally. So she is extremely dedicated and adept at aggregating and disseminating Otani media and esoterica for an English language audience. And today, to you. So without any more monologuing from me, I give you the queen of the showbays. I'm joined now, maybe for the first time, by someone who probably likes Shohei Otani more than me. I can't say that about that many people in the world, but I think I can say that about my guest today. Her name is Portia, and she runs the at Shohei Save Us Twitter account, which has brought me a lot of entertainment

over the past few years. Portia, welcome to the podcast. Hi, everyone. I just want to ask just a little bit about your origins as a Shohei Otani fan. Were you a baseball fan who became an Otani fan or were you an Otani fan who became a baseball fan? My family used to love baseball. They were baseball fans. But it's not like the ones you've seen in America. It's more like casual. I've watched baseball. They were baseball fans. But it's not like the ones you've seen in America. It's more like casual. I've watched baseball since I was growing up, but it's not anything serious for me.

But then I randomly saw Shohei on Twitter. And yeah, that's it. The rest is history. Yeah. So love at first sight. Was it, I think you told me once it was his first hit with the Angels that you saw, right? Yeah. It was the first pitch that he seeded the MLB versus Oakland A's. Probably not Oakland A's anymore. Not for long, maybe. That was the first pitch and first hit.

It was a single. Yeah. And that was his first game. That's the first thing I've seen. What was it about that that attracted you instantly to him? I'm not gonna lie. He looked super cute. Yes.

He looks really good because he removed his helmet. Oh, yeah. When he got to first base and I was like, no way a hot Asian guy is playing baseball right now. There is no way. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, he'll take off the helmet. He'll run his hand through his hair. Right.

You know, maybe maybe wipe off some sweat or something. And yeah, I can see how that could hook you right away. And he was young. Yes, right. I guess at the time he was still, what, 23, 24? 23. And then back then, there's no Asian guy. I'm sorry, but there wasn't.

All I know was, of course, Ichiro and Matsui. And that was it. I don't know anyone else. Were you in the Philippines at the time or in China? Because you're from the Philippines originally and you've lived in China. Is that right? Yes. I think I was in the Philippines at that time, but I've always traveled back and forth to China. So it's like another home for me. Do you have family in both countries? Yes, I do. My mom, my aunt, and a couple of relatives in China. And I also have relatives in the U.S.

What's the level of baseball's popularity in the Philippines, in China? Was it common for there to be baseball fans there? No, it's zero. There is no baseball fans in China or Philippines. But there is one thing, though. Babe Ruth did go to the Philippines before, and he hit the home run here. But then that was during the American occupation when the Americans were here to colonize us. And so you inherited some awareness of baseball from your family.

Yes. Were you aware of Shohei Otani at all before 2018? No. Because of course he was famous in Japan, but you had not noticed him yet. No, I don't know him at all because baseball wasn't something you see on TV. And it's not something you see on social media yet, but something changed. Yeah. And you've been a big part of that change. So how did you decide to become the owner, the operator of a Shohei Otani fan account? Oh, it was just something. It was not something that I was going to share. I just like to

talk about the things I like. But then all of the baseball fans back then, they were just like guys. And no one was really talking about how he looks. Because I don't think they see how hot it is. I'm sorry about that. But he looks great. Yeah, don't apologize. Yeah, no, it's true. I don't know if it's like that in the Western side, but he looks great yeah don't apologize yeah no it's true i don't know if it's like that in the western side but he looks really great and that's when it started and then once you get started you just

realize how fun baseball is and then you just just went into this game that is so amazing. Like there's so many things to learn. Yeah. And the game is amazing. It takes like four hours and that's the best time. So did you prefer before the pitch clock because it lasted longer? I like the before the pitch clock. It's just like 25 minutes. Yeah.

Difference. Yeah. Difference. it's just like 25 minutes yeah difference yeah difference i kind of like it longer maybe because i get to see everyone longer but they said the pitch clock was great i don't really mind an extra 25 minutes of my time but yeah you get to spend more time with Shohei, I guess. Exactly. So your interest in Otani then has led to a larger interest in the sport, right? And are you still following baseball primarily through Otani? Or has he been an introduction to other teams, other players, other storylines for you? He's definitely an introduction. He's a big part. But then I kind of got into a lot of things.

Like I look up other players, I look at other teams, what they're doing, what they're up to. I even go to Reddit and I listen to podcasts. And I met a lot of people who have no idea about baseball and just learned through Shoei. And now they're so into baseball. Oh, that's great. Do you mean in person in the Philippines, in China or on the internet mostly that you've managed to? In the Philippines and not in China though. But I've a lot in the Philippines, a lot has changed because before a lot of people didn't know

I was from the Philippines and I don't really type in my language because there's no one there listening anyways. But now, there is a big group of Filipino fans

just for Shohei. We have a group chat. Oh, that's great. There's a lot of us now and it's, it's crazy. So did you start tweeting about him on your personal account? And then gradually, it just took over the entire account where it just became all Shohei all the time? Yes, it was my personal account. And I was

just tweeting lots of photos. Because back then I was following a lot of Angels fans and they don't really share photos of the players. It's just very baseball stuff. But there wasn't really an update through what's happening behind the players' lives, what they're doing, what they're up to in their Instagram. No one was doing that. It was just baseball, some words, some stats, but no one was really showing what it's like on how they look, who's friends together, who's always together, who's hanging out together. It was just very basic baseball stuff.

Yeah, you have filled a niche. You have managed to provide this other information that maybe is harder to get. And obviously, it's been incredibly popular because when I first messaged you, I congratulated you on getting to 10,000 followers. Now you have more than 150,000. So clearly, people are interested in what you're doing yeah it's quite crazy and it was so fast like it was suddenly getting more and more i think it because of the wbc too that time i think i suddenly got 50,000 followers because of WBC. And then you just got to meet more people from different countries getting interested with baseball.

Because before it's mostly Japanese fans and American fans. But now there's a big group of Southeast Asian and a big group of Korean fans people searching for Shohei Otani content. I remember reading how many Instagram followers Otani gained during the WBC. It was a lot, as I recall. He was actually posting, which he hasn't done a whole lot of in the past. So is it just that as he's gotten more successful and more famous that inevitably people look for more information about him and that then leads them to you? Yes, I think so. But there was a change during the start of the WBC. He was actively promoting it. Yes.

Like the press conference that he did, he was a surprise guest of manager Kuriyama, the coach for WBC. And also he was the old coach in the fighters. He was really active in promoting wbc he would it was something new because he he was never like that but he was constantly updating his instagram instagram stories sharing information it was crazy because he wasn't using his instagram since 2020 right he. He would just share one photo that the season was starting and that's it. Yeah. It was just quite a big change.

Is yours the biggest Shohei Otani fan account? Are there others on other platforms that are also very large? There are large Shohei fan accounts in TikTok. If you go to TikTok and just search his name, it's crazy. There's so many things there. Yeah. Maybe for Twitter, it's mine, but there's some big Japanese accounts,

but I mostly tweet in English. So maybe that's the difference. How do you define the difference between a fan and a stan? Do you draw a distinction between Otani fans and Otani stans? And how would you classify yourself? I'm an Otani stan. I'm proud of it. There's no need to pretend like I'm a baseball fan or something.

But first thing, if you ask me, I will say I'm an Otani fan, Stan, more than a baseball fan, because I love the sports because of him. If he retires, I don't even want to think about it. No. No.

Yes. One day that will have to happen, I assume. but let's hope it's not for quite a while, right? But for the Stan fan difference, is that just a difference of degree? Is that just the same sort of idea, but you just like him more? You just follow him even more fiercely than a fan. Is that the difference between Otani Stan, Otani fan? Maybe because the Stan ones are more dedicated. That's the difference. The Otani Stans would constantly share updates and would constantly search for his name, look for new information.

That's what we all do. If you ever get to join a showbay, we call ourselves showbay. If you ever get to join a showbay group chat, I think you should join one of ours. Yeah. Oh, definitely. You will see something there that is quite different than maybe your normal baseball group chat. How many people are in the Showbay chats? Well, there's a level, how intense you want it to be.

So if you want to start from the bottom, there's a lot, but there's a high level, Stan. I will invite you. Oh, wow. I'd be honored to participate. Yeah, this is obviously I follow you publicly and I see the public content. How is the private content different? The group chat content? The group chat content would have a lot of not safe for work kind of things.

And definitely more rumors, which is nothing. Maybe we're just bored because it's off season. You shouldn't take it seriously. It's off season sadness. Yes. And what is the breakdown of the showbiz in terms of gender and nationality? What kind of people become showbiz? Is it skewed more toward people in certain countries or men or women? Or how does it break down? More women, but we do have a lot of male fans there. And mostly from America. And definitely more Southeast Asians.

But I got to meet a lot of new fans. And it started to really grow. Especially in South Korea. If you don't know, there's a whole lot of them now. Maybe because I like to interact more with Shoei fans. That's why I could see it. And maybe there's a big difference. But even if you search his name, have you used Google Trends before?

Yeah. If you search his name, you can yeah if you search his name you can see which countries search his name the most and the top ones is of course u.s i mean japan south korea then u.s and you will see lots of southeast asian countries so that's that's quite the big thing for shohei he's really out there now maybe if he goes to europe i think he will have more fans yeah and how do you think he compares his level of popularity to well let's start with other baseball stars right before we branch out into other sports or other celebrities? Is it just an order of magnitude difference? Is it just a completely different stratosphere of fame, you think, with the Otani fandom versus any other baseball player anywhere in the world?

There's such a big difference because I have never met a baseball stand before like most of them would tweet about baseball or their team but you will never see just for one player that constantly updates about what he does and there's there's even what we call otani youtubers if you ever encounter them they will go to every games and we call it fan cams yeah they will take videos of shoy that's one thing that is different he has that and he has there's a lot of fan content that you guys probably don't know but fans will take photos. But my favorite is the Shoei YouTubers because they just film Shoei 24-7 in the dugout. Right.

Which I think is maybe something new for American fans, but us here in Asia, that's normal. Right. Yeah. NHK does that on the broadcast right yes otani cam there's a tonic on with nhk but there's also the otani cam for the youtubers which is a different perspective view yeah so that's something that i could there's a really big difference there's a really big difference. And just the amount of photos he has on a game. I think there's so many. I could save about a hundred photos and I don't even save all of them just for one game.

Yeah. Do you have a hard drive just full of Shohei images and GIFs and videos? Oh yeah, I have too much. I had to buy an external hard drive. And it's so full of his videos and photos. How big is the hard drive? How many gigabytes or terabytes are we talking here?

Two terabytes. And it's just him. Okay. And then my... That's very big. Yeah, it's so much content. That's very big. Yeah, it's so much content.

Now, do you think that Otani likes that or minds that? Because he is a pretty private person, right? And he's conscious of this. He's used to it now that he knows that eyes are always on him and he's always being filmed. It's just, it's been the case for his entire adult life, right? But do you ever worry that, oh, this is invasive, this is disrupting his privacy, he would rather not have this level of attention? How do you think about that? For me, because this has happened since he was in high school yeah you could watch lots of old videos of him like reporters in japan visiting his high school and he will they will even visit his house in iwate and he will show his bedroom i think because he got used to it he doesn't mind at all. I think it's harder in Japan because there's a lot of paparazzi that waits for him outside of his house. One of the official reports said there was 60 paparazzi in Japan just waiting if he's going to do something or go outside. Yeah. And that's harder.

But in the U.S., it's definitely easier because the camera is only during games. But in Japan, it's more invasive, I think. And you could tell because he was asked if he went somewhere. This was just last year when he was in japan 2022 yeah and he said he only went out three to four times when he was in japan and he was filming something in in the suburbs and he he he was trying to hold his um bladder he needs to pee really badly so they had but he couldn't do it so they had to stop to a convenience store and then he he felt really nostalgic and he almost cried because it was his first time in years to go in a convenience store and he bought something i think his favorite convenience store dessert and he he knew that

the cashier recognized him but didn't bother him so he was like very happy so i kind of felt like oh he can't he can't even go to a convenience store in japan i think that's the big difference. So I think he likes living in the U.S. more. Ichiro and Matsui moved to the U.S. They live there and they just visit Japan. I think that's what's going to happen with him. See, this is why I enjoy following you and talking to you because you know all the stories, everything that has happened to Shohei, everything he's said in any interview. You know that, you have that in your memory or in your hard drive even, and then you can share it with us. My Shohei memory is pretty good. So I get a lot of messages if they're trying to look for something,

I could send it to them. If they're trying to look for something, I could send it to them. Yeah, see, I do wonder about this because he is someone who doesn't really go out that much anyway. He talks about the fact that, you know, he just goes to the gym and he goes to the ballpark and then he goes back to his home, right? He's kind of a homebody, a recluse, I think, just by nature. kind of a homebody, a recluse, I think, just by nature. But it's hard to tell how much of that is just that he's so dedicated to baseball 24-7 that he's always training or sleeping or preparing for the game in some way. And how much of it is just that he's such a huge star and celebrity that it's hard for him to live a normal life and to just be out and about, right? It's hard to tell how much of that is preference and just his personality and how much

of it is necessity that he has to have that lifestyle. Yeah, I think that was because he grew up in a way that there's so many cameras around him that he got really used to not going out and i'm not trying to hate on iwate but shoy has always said how there's there's nothing to do there and they ask they even asked him last on 2022 if he went home that's what he says that no i did not go back to my hometown there's nothing to do there and it's cold maybe that's why you just he stays at home but i think it's the attention he gets uh there is there is a report that is called monthly e-pe in Sponichi, which really follows Shoei. And that's one of the writers and news site that Shoei trusts. So they get all of this info.

So during Monthly Ipe, Ipe is the one interview, he said, Otani cannot go out in Japan if the restaurant doesn't have a back entrance, like another entrance, and if there's no private room. Because he's just very noticeable and everyone's just, you just can't function with that. He just can't. So as you were saying, it seems like there's no other baseball player

with this level of dedicated fandom and following and a Stan community, right? But how do you think it compares to other sports stars, let's say, other global sports, soccer, for instance, sports that are popular all over the world? There are obviously athletes who have more social media followers than he does, and maybe they're more active on social media as well. But how do you think his fame and the way that fans follow him compares to some of the other megastars in other sports? The big difference with Shohei is he's not active in the social media world yeah but then his fans are if you just visit there's a lot of Otani YouTubers Otani TikTok people Shohei Twitter X guys I think that's the big difference is that the showbiz are really active.

In Instagram, there's a lot of fan accounts that have huge followings. And it's just huge. If you just look over how many followers the Shoei fans have, my favorite Shoei YouTuber has like 300 000 followers i haven't checked recently maybe it went up and then my favorite shoy instagram person has like of uh showy videos in tiktok trends so you will see like the comments like who is this guy what is he doing what is the sports i'm like yeah that's shy and he's he's saving baseball right how would you compare Showbiz to Swifties? Do you think there are some similarities?

There is. Because I did some work for Taylor Swift back in the day. The big difference is there's a girl's kind of side for Showbiz fans, but there's also a guy of side for Shoei fans, but there's also guys side. Yes. And there's a big difference with them. Because when I was doing some work for Taylor Swift for a game, because it was like,

it was a lot, I could see lots of users back then. And they're mostly girls, young girls. And for Sh Shohei fans, the age demographic is really wide. And I've met a lot of male fans and they're the ones who really love Shohei

for how good he is and they're really into the stats and would fight for him. Uh-huh. And the girl side is more about having fun, meaning new friends, sharing things that we create. Like there's a lot of good Shoei artists out there. And they make lots of good art.

And some of them are my friends and they're so good. I think that's the big difference too if you ever seen the things i retweet like every day there will be new show a art and maybe we're also a bit we fight for show a that's about it so if someone's trying to like undermine his achievements we're like what are you talking about? Yes, right. If Stephen A. Smith says he can't be the face of baseball or something, then the showbays are going to be out in force. Yes. Now, you mentioned there are a lot of guys who appreciate his play and are very into his stats.

Obviously, I am very into his stats. Now, does that make me a showbae? How do you qualify as a showbae? Because I definitely admire him as a player and as a person. And I'd probably focus more on his on-field accomplishments than his appearance. But I'm not above making comments about his appearance and admiring he's a handsome man. So what's the line between a fan, a stan, someone who's covering him in the media like I do, and a showbae? Can I be an honorary showbae or do I not qualify? I think you qualify so much. You could really join us. Wow. Okay. That's flattering. Because you probably don't realize, but you're really on the show bay level right now. I've never been so flattered. I'm honored. You're there. I think I saw the last podcast and they say you watch too many angels game. Yes, I definitely watched too many Angels games over the past few years.

That is true. So that's one step. And the second step is if you're really interested beyond what else he does with baseball, that's pretty much a show bay right there. Okay. Well, I think I've crossed the line into show bay territory. And that is unusual for me. Obviously, as someone who podcasts about baseball, writes about baseball, I cover the players and interview the players. But I am more interested in Otani's life, right, and his personality and his interests than I am in the typical player where I'm maybe more interested in them as a player than I am in them as a person. There are other baseball players I appreciate and like and I'm interested in as well. But with Otani, it's a different level because he's a different type of player. And it certainly started with my appreciation of him as a player. Oh, he's a two-way player. I've never seen that before.

He is incredible. And then that leads to, wow, I'm just interested in all aspects of him, right? Now, I do have a two-terabyte hard drive. There is no Otani content on it, I must say. But I follow you for that, and I outsource that to you. And I know that you will see everything and you will tweet about it.

And you tweet, I think, almost 40 times a day on average, roughly. Some days more than others. Oh, yeah. I tweet too much. How do you find things to tweet or retweet? Are you just constantly searching? Sometimes you're resurfacing old interviews and old photos and old quotes, right? And sometimes it's original tweets and sometimes you're promoting other people's tweets

and stats and articles. But how do you find the content that you create or share? How do I find? I've been doing this for five years. I mostly know where to go and i have some experience with running a website and i can speak a little japanese maybe that helps and mostly because yeah i hang around in shohei's circle of friends i'm sorry shohei but i Ipe. I follow your besties like Patrick Sandoval. Yes, of course. And if you just go to their Instagram, you will see interactions. That's about it. And sometimes people will message me, send me a DM about how they know this, how they saw this one.

And they said I could share it. And maybe because I've known a lot of people, I have contacts. And yeah, that's about it. And what we showbiz like is that we all, I don't know how, but we get lots of updates about him. Yeah. how but we get lots of updates about him yeah the japanese news write about 20 articles a day just about him and that's just on a low a low day like there's nothing going on it's crazy when you uh i use yeah i don't know if i can say it but it's a very big news site for Japan.

You search his name every constantly every day. There's an update. You could just see how dedicated the writers are. You know, they know everything. Yeah. And now you do, too. And I wonder whether the fact that he's so private, so he's not creating a lot of gossip and rumors himself, really. So in that sense, it makes it harder to be a fan or Stan or a show bay because he's not supplying that much information.

He's not tweeting or Instagramming all that much. Right. But does that make it more interesting for you in a sense like he leaves a lot to the imagination you know because he's not broadcasting his whole life he's not an open book and so you wonder well what's going on there under the surface what are we not seeing right so do you wish that he were more open, more public, or do you prefer it this way? Does it actually make him more intriguing because he is pretty private? I think it goes both ways. I don't want him to be too open, but then I would love it if he shares more about his life.

Not every day. I will take crumbs. Right. Like, just the name of his dog. Right, I was going to say, because he doesn't put that much information about his personal life out there. So when he puts his dog on TV,

then that must make waves. That must be just a huge, just earth-shattering moment for the showbiz. That was a big surprise. No one saw that coming. It was, everyone was shocked. That just created like this, this feeling that no one was focused about the MVP announcement anymore. Everything was about the dog.

Yeah. Well, the MVP wasn't a surprise. We all knew he was going to be the MVP. We didn't know he was going to about the dog. Yeah. Well, the MVP wasn't a surprise. We all knew he was going to be the MVP. We didn't know he was going to have a dog. Yeah. Because for the past three years, I mean, two years, he was alone there and he was always in Japan during the announcement. So he looks so sleepy during the interviews. But this is the first time where he looks like he's happy and energetic i don't know what to call it he just looks different he looks really happy about the dog i think yes right and the point that he shared something about his private life that was kind of crazy he never

shares anything that personal it's always about baseball That's the most personal thing I've seen since ever for five years that I was a fan. romantic partners outside of baseball? Because as you said, we know about his baseball friends and his relationship with Patrick Sandoval or Lars Nupar or many of the other players that he's been close to. But does he have other friends? Does he date? You would know better than anyone, right? What are his relationships like outside of baseball or are they non-existent? For his love life, we've tried our best to look for anything, but we couldn't find. No one has ever found anything remotely even close. And the Japanese paparazzis, they are really good. Right. They would know. Yeah. They know everything.

I follow a lot of Japanese entertainment things. And their palbarazzi are intense. They would constantly have new gossips, photos of celebrities. And this is a bit different but one of the recent celebrities athletes in japan the figure skater yuzu ruhanu he got divorced after just three months because of media harassment and paparazzi constantly following his family, his wife. Yeah. And that's how hard it is to live in Japan if you're a celebrity because of the paparazzi.

And everyone wonders why Shoei has never been caught by the paps. And the only closest thing that the paparazzi got on Shoei was how there's a woman who was entering his apartment, but it was just his mom. Cooking him food and bringing food to him. That's the closest thing that they got. And the only thing they got is Shoehei going to his gym in Japan. Yeah, right.

That's about it. He never went out. He showed up at an equinox in Anaheim or in California the other day, right? Which I knew from following you. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, he did. That was a shocking thing. Yes, yes. Lots of new developments this offseason. And he got a haircut with a famous celebrity haircut person. I don't know what to call them. Hairdresser? Barber? Barber. Yeah. And she only does A-listers. Okay. Oh, I was like, yes, go get that. Yeah, I wonder whether he's just saving that part of his life for after his playing career, maybe when the attention dies down a little. Who knows, right? We didn't know he had a dog and then suddenly he showed up with a dog. Maybe one of these days we'll just suddenly know who he's dating, right? But maybe not. He's been described as a baseball monk, right? He's just so dedicated to his craft and practicing and training and sleeping that maybe there's no time for anything else. Or maybe it's just not

possible with the scrutiny that he has on him. But maybe it's something that he's just waiting until he's done with baseball to do other things, right? I mean, he must have some relationships, some friendships that go back to when he was a kid, right? Even when he was playing back then, but he must have some non-baseball friends probably, right? But maybe we wouldn't know about that. There's only one instance is that Shoehei likes hanging out with his high school friends, the high school baseball friends. And that's the only group photos of non-baseball related things Shohei has is when he goes out with his high school friends. Got it. That's the only thing we have.

Yeah. friends. That's the only thing we have. And lots of photos with his friends in SoCal, like Patrick Sandoval and David Fletcher. Fletch Tani, right? Oh, yes, Fletch Tani. I wonder what your day-night sleep schedule is like, because just to do this interview, schedule is like, because just to do this interview, we're 13 hours apart. And so it's morning for me as we're speaking, it's nighttime for you, whether you're in the Philippines or in China, it's I think 13 hours different, East Coast time, 16 hours different, West Coast time. So you have a job, you work in tech, You've worked in games, as you said. How do you fit in watching Angels games? What time are the games for you?

How do you structure your life so that you can pay attention to Otani? Him being in the West Coast is perfect for me because games start at 10 a.m. here. My time, 10 a.m., that's just perfect time because that's like my free time. That's why I've rarely missed any Angels game. The Angels game I do miss out on is when they go to East Coast and the time is like 2 a.m. or 1 a.m. That's my sleeping time so that's very hard because i need my sleep so in a sense i think i understood why shohei chose to move to the west coast i think he was being nice for the japanese fans because that's the time that would be easiest to watch him. But then now I think he knows they won't care. Everyone will wake up for him at 2 a.m.

Right. I think geographical-wise, he wouldn't care where he is. Now, in his career, he knows everyone will cater to him. And also, it's just easy for me. It's the same with all of my Asian friends. The time is not hard. It's easy for us in the morning to watch baseball. I think it gives more of a sense of having brunch while watching baseball.

I think that's something you guys have never experienced. Yeah, we've... Because it's mostly nighttime, right? Or afternoon? Yeah, usually. Yeah, we have done, my wife and I and friends have done Otani brunches maybe on a Sunday. If there's a day game, then it's roughly at the right time and other people in adjacent time zones rooting very hard for him to stay with a West Coast team? I would like for him to stay in the West Coast. It will be easier for me, living-wise.

But I think I will still wake up at 2 a.m. if he ever chose to East Coast. I think we're at this point that most of his fans are really into him, that we will do whatever it takes to watch his games. And again, true to form, typical Otani. We're not getting a lot of news about where he's visiting or what he's thinking. People are speculating, of course, but no one really knows how he's going to make this decision. And it's even been reported that he would hold it against a team if news of his visit leaked. So who knows when he will sign, but it might just be like one day he announces his new dog. Maybe one day he announces his new team,

right? We might not know in advance, though I'm sure that the paparazzi will be paying attention and so you will be paying attention. But it's not the typical free agent process where we know, oh, he visited this team, right? Or he's interested in that team. We might just not know until we know for sure, which is frustrating, I guess, in some ways, especially for someone like you who it really matters to sleep schedule wise. But it's also, I guess, exciting because you never know, right? Almost any team could have hope because no one expected that he would sign with the Angels. Usually with big free agents, you kind of get a sense, okay, these teams are

in the running and these teams are not. With Otani, because he could do a really long-term deal, he could do a short-term deal. Again, no one knows. And so you can't completely rule out any team or any city yet. Exactly. Just because I've read a bunch of articles of like top 10 lists where Shoei will go and all of the top 10 lists are quite skewed. I just read the recent one where they said the ninth place is Dodgers, but then most of the others would say the first one is the Dodgers.

So in the end, no one really knows where he will go. Everyone is just speculating that he might choose the Dodgers because it's the most convenient one and they have the money. Then I think everyone will have the money for Shohei. I think that's what it is. I don't think money will be a big thing right now for him. He wouldn't really care. He gets like, he earns more, not on his baseball salary, but his, you know, sponsorship with like Hugo Boss and Porsche, my name, but the car. Yes. Right. Spelled differently.

Yes. So even if I read the top 10, everyone's saying this is the best place, but there wasn't really any concrete evidence where he would choose to go. So it's quite exciting. Where will he, what will he want or where will he go? Because no one really knows. I mean, one day he want or where will he go? Because no one really knows. I mean, one day he could just choose the East Coast. Maybe stay in the AL or maybe decides to just go to the NL.

I don't know what he wants, to be honest. Rationally speaking, maybe the Dodgers is an easy choice, but you never know with him. It's kind of mysterious. Yes, a man of mystery. And it's why he's so fascinating. And it really affects your life, not quite as much as his life, but more than maybe anyone else's. Because you're watching every game.

And it's not just the time zone, but it's also what team are you going to be following and hoping makes the postseason so that Otani can make the postseason. So aside from your preference for West Coast over East Coast, is there a particular team that you're hoping he signs with because you think it would be fun to follow that team? with because you think it would be fun to follow that team? Originally, I would like him to stay in the West Coast. I would like him to go to San Diego, Patras. I think that's something new for him.

But then the NL West looks really, it looks really hard over there. Maybe the Dodgers would give him more a sense of going to the playoffs. It's more stable. But then he might not really like it there. I don't know. But preference-wise, I like the Giants. It seems something new, but everyone say Oracle Park is not good for lefties. I don't know how that would affect his decision, though. Does he take it into consideration, like the stadium?

Yeah, right. Who knows? Who knows? He's really into stats. So maybe he's thinking about that. He's like, he's always in his iPad looking at things about baseball. And he's really into that. When you actually interview him, he enjoys it more when you ask about those kind of things, like about stats. He enjoys it. You can see it those kind of things like about stats. He enjoys it. You can see it in his face.

Yeah. And he talks more. Yeah. Then you can lure him in to asking. And you can lure him in and then ask about personal stuff. Yes. He wouldn't notice. Start with some stats and then ask him what his dog's name is.

Yeah, exactly. That's what you need to do. But some of the reporters are like asking the same question. They should ask about something different and then ask about the dog. Yes, that's helpful with a lot of player interviews that I do. I find because they get asked certain questions over and over again. And so if you can find something new that they haven't been asked about, and if you can focus on some specific stat that maybe most people wouldn't have noticed,

then that gets them to really open up. Now, with most players, I wouldn't use that to then ask about their dog, but with Otani, maybe. What is one thing that you wish you knew about Otani, What is one thing that you wish you knew about Otani if you could ask him a question or if you could get the answer to a question that you have about him? Is there one thing other than the name of his dog that you would most want to know some secret that all the showbiz are curious about? The first question is, why did he go to Hawaii last year before he went to Japan? What did he do there? I don't know if this is the right question, but he enjoys the beach a lot because he went out with Tor and Lorenzen. They went on a beach date together, the three of them. Yes.

And that was something shocking. And we got about like 10 photos from random fans who took photos with him. This was in Newport Beach. And then Lorenzen said everyone recognized Otani. And they were, I don't know what's up with them but they like to ride on their bikes uh-huh yeah shohei has you know has his own bike and this is from ipe that shohei made him ride a bike together with him they just go around the angel stager the parking lot and shohei already went twice around it and ipa was like

not even halfway done or something like that he that's what he said that's what ipa said and lorenzen and torah likes to ride the bike too and lorenzen said some kids recognized shoi and started following him while riding his bike, shouting his name. Well, that was quite fun. But I also wanted to know more about how he enjoys the beach and how he likes sailing. Yeah, because this was one of, this is Ipe's monthly Ipe report, by the way. I did not make this up. Shohei rode Nez Balelo, his agent's yacht.

And Nez Balelo was driving and Shohei absolutely loves it. And there's photos of Shohei Ipe was in Hawaii. There's two photos, so it's not made up. He was really there. He's two photos, so it's not made up. He was really there. He was with a fan. A fan took a photo with him and people spotted him in the airport. Yeah.

So I don't know if this is a weird thing. Maybe this is a show baiting, but we'll ask him like, if you go to the beach, please share some beach photos. Right. Preferably shirtless i assume he was wearing a shirt during that time with lorenzen and tor but i have seen you share shirtless photos from a previous beach trip maybe that was the one with his high school friends yeah that was in hawaii

yeah with his what do you call them fighters teammates okay but that was in Hawaii with his, what do you call them, fighters teammates. Okay. But that was a long time ago. I think that was 2016. Well, that's good to know. Maybe if he's interested in the beach and sailing, then he'll be most interested in a coastal team. Maybe it'll be easier to persuade him to sign with a team that's close to the ocean, close to the beach, right? You could use that to persuade him to sign with your team. What is something that you know about Shohei that the showbiz know about Shohei that not enough other people know, or maybe most American fans don't know, right? Because you have shared with me the NHK documentaries. You actually did the English subtitles for one of the documentaries that I shared last week, right? So you read all

the interviews, you know, all these things that most fans who follow him in the US may not know. So what are some things about him, his career, his interests, anything you think that people would be interested in knowing that are really the deep cuts that only the showbiz know? The deep cuts? Well, I don't want to say this, but let's not go there. But one of the things that most baseball fans don't know to say. Yeah, please join the group chats first. One of the things that most baseball fans don't know about Ohtani is maybe his playful side. Yeah.

He's actually very good at arts. He's very good at drawing. There's a bunch of drawings that he did before that are really good. He is actually very smart. In his high school, he was one of the top students. Okay. Which is quite shocking because he's busy with baseball. And that really takes so much time.

But he's one of the top students in his school. Like he's very good at math and tests. He was even asked, why are you so good at taking tests? And I was like, it's nothing. It's easy. That's what he said.

And he has very good handwriting. And another one is he likes desserts. Which desserts? He likes crepes and sweets. And one of Ipe's father is a chef. This is from Ipe again, not from me. Ipe said they invited Shohei to a party at their house because Ipe grew up in the area, the Angels area, OC. He said they used to live

15 minutes away from Angels' stadium. And when he was there, there was leftover dessert that his dad made which are panna cotta. And Shoei asked if he could take all of them home.

There was like a lot of it left and he took everything. So yeah, that's something different. But I don't know if that's interesting enough. And if you follow me, you will see how playful he is. Right. If you're interested in a lot more shohid details about his life you should follow my account i agree but i don't want to share something that are just rumors because yeah you you've been very diligent very responsible about citing your sources

some people might get mad if i'm just making stuff up, but I don't really because I'm very skeptical. That's just my thing. Maybe because I worked in a tech company where you can just guess your way through stuff. Yeah. When you were talking about Shohei and Ipe riding bikes together, I was picturing a tandem bike, you know, a two-person bike where one person's on the front of the bike and one person's on the back, which I recently rode a tandem bike with my wife for the first time. I was picturing Shohei and Ipe riding a tandem bike, but it was not that. They each had separate bikes, right? They had their own bike, but that would have been cute. Which leads me to maybe my last question. You have, during this conversation, called him cute.

You have also called him hot. Now, is Shohei hot or cute? Acknowledging that attractiveness is subjective. And I'm not saying he can't be both or that those are mutually exclusive, cuteness and hotness. But this was a debate that I saw some of my podcast listeners having recently. Is he hot or is he cute or can he be both? What would you say? He's definitely both because when he wants to be hot, he is.

And when he wants to be cute, he is. Like there are so many videos available of him being acting so cute. And then when he's all serious and really into baseball he's very hot and he would sometimes say bad words he would cuss is that the right word i'm sorry yes yes he would do that a lot especially when he's pitching he gets more fired up that's his hot face but when he's in the dog aisle he's really cute and he just makes fun of his friends they're throwing things at them like sunflower seeds and bubble gums right so he's both hot and cute and not only that during the off season he does a lot of photo shoots and commercial shooting. So we get a lot of his hot side by doing like Hugo Boss campaign.

Yeah, his modeling, his thirst traps, they're out there. And his immense line of beauty products. Oh, yeah. His skin is so perfect. Oh, yeah. His skin is so perfect. him not purely for the physical, right? You appreciate how great he is at baseball and how dedicated he is to his craft. And also, as you said, his silly side and the fact that he seems to be a caring, polite person, right? Whether it's with his friendships with players or his family or whatever it is, you get glimpses of him. And at least as far as we can tell publicly, seems like a really nice guy.

Yes, very nice guy. I think maybe him being quiet helps with the nice guy concept. And he's really nice to his teammates. You can see it during WBC too, if you ever watch the documentary but there's a wbc documentary that is on amazon prime and it shows that when shoy was there a lot of the younger players they all of them were mostly young he was like just call me by his name no need to use do this and he did the same with nude bar trying to make him feel more comfortable

something like that he did a lot of stuff and everyone kind of respect him for that because he took on the leader role during wbc even though he's not the oldest player in the team which is quite rare because i didn't think he was going to be chosen as the leader because um obviously darvish is older because usually in japan they would choose the oldest player or the one more experienced the veteran but he was chosen and he really took on the role and he did so well. Every year, there's something new about him. That's why we get excited about Shohei.

Because it's just suddenly he would show us something different. Yeah. Maybe that's the mysterious part. He doesn't show everything. Just live little crumbs. And then you wait for more and you get really hungry. or they want to go farther down the path toward full showbade-dom, what would you recommend? Obviously, other than following you, which I encourage everyone to do,

are there other accounts that you would recommend? Or how do you get into the group chats? How does one go about becoming a showbabe? It's really easy because every showbay is really accommodating. First, maybe follow me first and then you can send me a DM and I will add you to the GC and you will get fired up. It's crazy over there and it's really fun. You get to meet lots of people and we share a lot of things. And then a lot of us also make Shohei products that you can buy or just for sharing. If you're into stickers, perhaps,

we have lots of that. And we do lots of things that normal baseball fan wouldn't even think of. Like this is a different thing here. And we're starting it. And everyone's picking it up. And maybe follow the Shohei YouTubers. I will ask you for some specific accounts.

And I'll link to them on the podcast page for people to check out. Yes. And maybe if you really want to go deep into the rabbit hole, go to the show a TikTok world where there are a use if you're really into that kind of thing. Or maybe you're just looking for something new. You can get in. You can get into that. Can you explain for the people who may not know? Oh, it's augmented reality. It's like fan fiction. Yep. And storylines of me possibly meeting Shohei. Yes. Fan fiction. Yeah. Yeah, that's in TikTok. But I usually don't post something like that. I'm more into Shohei updates. Right. And it seems to be a community that's very friendly and welcoming. And I'm sure that there are different subcultures and maybe even disputes sometimes. But it seems

like the Shopeis are pretty united in just supporting Shohei in every way that they can. United and active. I think that's one. Yeah, you will never get bored because we always have something new to talk about. for first pitch if this were during the season, right? So it's not too late for you. But it's been a pleasure to talk to you after these years of following you and messaging you occasionally. So thank you so much for coming on and for all the entertainment that you've given me

and many other Otani fans. Thank you, Ben. I've enjoyed this because I've never done podcasts and I've always watched one. Please do invite more showbiz. I could introduce you to some who are really fun to talk with and they know a lot. All right. Well, thank you, Portia.

This was a pleasure. Thank you. Bye. All right. Thanks to Portia, who makes me feel like an amateur Otani admirer, an Otani dilettante. If you've been wondering what it was that Portia was about to share when I asked her what most fans don't know about Shohei until she thought better of it, well, you better believe I asked her after we stopped recording. She gave me the goss, and it was good goss, but I cannot go against the Shobei code and repeat it on a podcast.

So if you want the deets, you better follow her, send her a DM, join those group chats, and get Shobei-pilled yourself. And now that we've contemplated a player who's full of life and who makes our lives full, let's contemplate our mortality, but in a baseball way. It's time to talk to Sam Gage Jack, baseball obituarist, a man who knows where all the baseball bodies are buried. And when he doesn't know, he tries to find out. And despite the subject matter, we're going to keep the mood light. And so to play us into the second segment,

let's hand the mic to Otani-san himself as he performs his rendition of Despacito on the Angels team bus in 2018.あくびすじからゆっくりと 問いくれたらめちゃめちゃ 愛をもらってくれよ 手を重ねて濡らせるよ 受けたてないのさ恋のメロ 長い髪ある夏 君と Is there nothing the man can't do? He can carry a team and carry a tune and karaoke. We will talk Otani again soon.

But now, let's talk to a man whose work begins when players' lives end, and who, in his way, makes fans feel closer to them after they're gone. Are you a ghost? Karen. Just kidding. It's okay. What do you think? You look real to me.

Well, then I guess I'm real. All right. Well, I am joined now by Sam Gage-Jack. He is the founder and author of RIP Baseball and the chair of Sabre's 19th Century Baseball Grave Marker Project. Sam, welcome to Effectively Wild. Thanks, Ben. Thanks for having me. I'm so curious how you got into this line of work. I know this is not your day job. It's just in your spare time. You chronicle dead baseball players and you do a really great job of it. But I wonder how someone gets into that and realizes like about the baseball community, the baseball research community, is that no matter what your interest is, no matter how niche or obscure that you think it is, there are other people that share that same interest. And if you can write about it and do a good enough job about it, you can find a community or create a community of people who will read what you have.

And so, I didn't know that until I got into it. I only joined Sabre maybe about four or five years ago, and I had been interested in baseball all my life and had been writing for most of my adult life. But I never had had the opportunity to put the two together. And once I got involved in Sabre and saw all the different areas of research and all the niche markets that people had created with the research that they do, I thought there might be some interest in what I had. So, it kind of just exploded from there. I've just got a natural love of history and love of baseball.

And when I was a kid, I went on a whole bunch of historical tours of the East Coast and West Coast. And of course, if you go on the East Coast, you stop by all the cemeteries where the dead presidents are. And that kind of kicked off my interest in, well, who else is in these cemeteries? Are there any famous people in these? And I developed that interest. And then way late in life, I kind of figured out that I could kind of combine everything that I really like into one thing and just write about baseball players who have died and try and find their grave sites. Was there a formative baseball death in your life as you were growing up as a fan? Do you remember when you first became conscious of the mortality of baseball players who sometimes seem larger than life, right? But sometimes they are struck down in their primes and that is particularly affecting. So I was wondering whether you remember the first time you became conscious of a baseball player passing or whether there was any experience of that during your younger days. Not so much the younger days, because I mean, you know, when you're a kid, you know, everybody

seems very old at that point. You know, anybody who would have played, like when I was growing up in the 80s, so anybody who played in the 30s, 40s, 50s, they were ancient. And then, you know, much later in life, Gary Woods from the 84 Cubs passed away. And the 84 Cubs was the first team that I fell in love with. And in my mind, they're all that age still. You know, they're all in their 20s or early 30s. And then when I found that he had passed away, that was a sad moment for me. And then I went online and realized that there was just very little information about him. Apparently, I think he was working or had worked for the Blue Jays extensively after his playing career, but there just wasn't a ton of information. And so, you know, I'd been collecting,

I think I'd just started going to cemeteries at that point. But then that was kind of when I thought that, you know, I could take baseball players who have recently died and do a little digging into their past and try and tell a bit more of a story of their life beyond just when they played, who they played for, what their career batting average was. Right. Do you see yourself as sort of a speaker for the dead, someone who is bringing recognition, maybe especially to the underappreciated players, the players who aren't going to get a big obit in a prominent paper, right? There might be some local coverage, but otherwise people might not know their names or might not know what they went on to do after baseball. Do you try to cover every baseball player who dies, or is there a certain class of baseball players that you pay particular attention to? I do my best to cover everybody, although that gets really, really difficult, especially, you know, I started the blog a year before COVID. So it's gotten, that was not great timing. Um, and it's gotten difficult to try and

keep up with people like, right. Like today, as we speak, I learned that Ron Hodges passed away, the longtime catcher for the Mets. And so I've had to add him to my queue. And right now I think there's about five or six people in the queue. So it's, it's hard to catch up, but I do my best to try and make sure that everybody that I can, everybody that I can find gets a story. I've always been a storyteller. I've been a professional journalist since 1998, and I've written about a lot of different things, a lot of different types of articles.

But at the end of the day, the things that I really, really loved to write most about were about people, whether that was a company profile, talking about the founder of a company, what drives them, or a musician, and what was the inspiration behind their latest record, or just things like that. So it's kind of using the skill set that I've developed over the last couple of decades to take on ballplayers who, yeah, like I said, just might have a short obit or might not get any kind of mention at all and do the research and figure out what their story is. And there's a lot more to it. When someone like Frank Howard, who recently passed away, or P. Ladd passed away, there are a lot of

recollections about those guys because their careers might not have been long, but they were pretty memorable for what they were. And so there's a lot of, you know, a lot of remembrances from some really great writers. But like someone like Dennis Higgins passed away a couple weeks ago, and that was just a very short obituary and not much more beyond that. No articles that I could see about it. So that was where I come in and do my best to do the research and try and tell his story. Yeah, you celebrated Thanksgiving by publishing an obituary of Dave Stenhouse. I know that you've been under the weather lately, so I don't know if you were sitting down to a traditional Thanksgiving dinner.

So maybe that was just, well, I guess I'll publish my Dave Stenhouse op-ed today. I was formatting photos while watching the Macy's parade. So that's as you do, of course. And, you know, you could write a book about every baseball player, right? Even the obscure ones. There's something really interesting about their lives. You could hopefully say that about every person, not just every baseball player. So you have to decide how deep to dig. their lives. You could hopefully say that about every person, not just every baseball player. So

you have to decide how deep to dig. And of course, a lot of these players will have saber bios and other chronicles of their lives. So if it's someone who is very famous and there are going to be big obits ready to go in prominent papers, do you try to look for something unsung about them, something sort of off the beaten path? Or how deep do you know to go when you cover various players? Well, and we had a spate of Hall of Famers who passed away a couple years ago. And yeah, those stories, I mean, in one sense, they kind of write themselves. Because like Henry Aaron, for example, you know what you have to cover. You know you have to cover the home runs. You have to cover his debut in the Negro Leagues.

You have to cover kind of what he did afterwards. Of course, you've got to devote a couple of paragraphs to 714 and 715. And so if you don't do that, then you kind of feel like you're shortchanging people a little bit. But what you do to fill in the areas between those stories are the interesting part. And with Henry Aaron, I found some articles. The newspaper archives for black newspapers are not as thorough as a lot of the mainstream ones, but they are out there. And I found some really neat articles as to how the mainstream newspapers covered Henry Aaron versus how a lot of the black newspapers of the day did. And so I tried to focus in a little bit on that difference and how these two very different communities saw him. I wonder also how you learn about baseball player passings.

And one way is the Facebook group, Baseball Player Passings, right? And one way is the Facebook group, Baseball Player Passings, right? I think I first became aware of that because David Laurel at Fangraphs in his Sunday Notes column will often give a little nod, a tribute to a player who passed away and will often cite that Facebook group as his source. And I joined always amazed that some of these players who are obscure by baseball standards, right, and they may have had very short careers, but their deaths come to light one way or another. And I wonder how that is exactly. Are there baseball researchers who are sort of scouring the death notices to see if there was a baseball player among them? Or does this kind of organically come to one's attention? Well, it's like I said, you know, once you find a niche of baseball, you'll find this whole community. And so there is a very active community of people who follow baseball player passings.

And a lot of it is for biographical information. You know, you've got all the information about their birth and their playing career. So you want to be able to put a period at the end of that sentence. So there are people who go through a lot of obituaries. It used to be a little bit easier. A couple of different programs that had it have closed, but you can just do searches in obits with baseball in them and see if you can find people who mention that they've played somewhere. and see if you can find people who mentioned that they've played somewhere. I'm also part of an email group that whenever there is a passing of someone, that they'll just send out an email notice of that.

And there are a lot of minor leaguers that get included into that too. But it's like anybody who had anything remotely to do with professional baseball, people will find out about it. And then they spread that out to the community at large, and then everybody kind of starts keeping an eye out for what the online, the family-placed obituaries and burial information, that sort of thing. And that's how a lot of that information eventually makes its way to baseball reference and all the other stat sites. Yeah, just going to the Baseball Player Passings group right now, which has about 7,000 members. And there's a post just from a couple hours ago about the passing of Preston Hanna, RIP. And that was actually posted by the former player,

John D'Aquisto. He had had a Facebook post about it that was then posted in the baseball player passings group. So I guess there are many ways that one finds out. But it's interesting that there is sort of a systematic search set up because we want to know everything about baseball players. Right. And that can include both the details of their birth and their career and also how they go out, right? So it's important to find out about that somehow. Yeah. And a lot of the people in the group, they might be experts in one particular region or so, or maybe they've got a lot of inroads to specific major league teams. So if you hear something through the grapevine, you keep an eye on it and you let people know about it so that everybody else can kind of keep aware of it as well. So there are members from all over the

country. So even if you're just following the passings in your little region, that makes a big difference. That makes a big help. So tell me about the grave marker research and also effort, because I know this has been a big emphasis for Sabre going back some time. And there's a Sabre landmarks committee that just released a new Sabre baseball graves map a few months ago that was based on the research of former Sabre director Fred Wirth, who has chronicled the burial locations of many thousands of players. And now there's a map in case you want to go visit and pay your respects. And you have contributed to these efforts as well. So how did you become part of that is because they did not have the nice contracts that everybody but not always able to afford a grave marker. Or sometimes just over the course of 100 years, those markers get pretty worn and eroded,

and it's hard to even tell who they are. So this group was created several years ago by Sabre to try and right some of those wrongs and place grave markers over baseball noteworthies. Some of the first people that they did were like James White Davies, who is one of the Knickerbocker pioneers. And they've worked on Andy Leonard and Pud Galvin and several others before I got in. Ralph Carhart was the first chair of that committee and did some fantastic work. And he became aware of the fact that I had an interest in trying to find ballplayer graves. And I was especially trying to figure out the exact location of Ed Williamson, who for one brief season in 1884 was the home run king of all of baseball.

And he was part of it with the Chicago White Stockings, and they had a playing field with ridiculous dimensions. I think it was maybe less than 200 feet out to left and right. So it was, you know, you could hit a lot of pop fly home runs, and he hit 28 home runs that year, and that shattered the existing home run record and stood up until Babe Ruth broke it.

So, you know, he was, you know, you can make some arguments as to exactly how it happened, but he was the home run king and he was buried in a cemetery in Chicago in a marked grave. And I tried a couple of times to find it, at least, you know, find the near location of it. And Ralph got in touch with me and said, well, if you can find an exact location for it, then we can do this grave marker project and put a marker there. So I worked with the cemetery and was able to find that location. And we got that project done. And kind of as a result from that, Ralph stepped away to tend to some other things. He was in the middle of a move. So he had a lot going on in his life. And so I became the chair of it. All American Girls Professional Baseball League players. In fact, I believe there's a Negro Leagues Baseball Grave Marker Project that is sort of a standalone dedicated initiative.

So the umbrella is bigger. And I'd imagine in some cases it's even harder, of course, to find the biographical details for players in leagues that weren't as well covered, let alone finding out where they're buried. Sometimes it's tough to tell what their first name is, right? When you just have a box score at times, but people are working hard on all the leagues, all the players. There's someone trying to track down where they are and more information about them. We've got the benefit of 50 or 60 years worth of research. So a lot of the really heavy lifting has been done by folks who were, they actually had to go to the libraries and go study microfilms and go to cemeteries and go walk these rows after rows until they found stuff. So, you know, those of us in 2023, we've got the

benefit of a lot of expertise from people who came before us. So, as you mentioned with Dr. Wirth now, you can use that MAP. It's a MAPTIF program, and it'll get you within a couple of feet of any grave that is listed there. So, that makes it even easier still. But there's a lot to be done. was a huge boon because now, along with having the statistics, you actually had the biographical information. Some of that stuff was there in the past, but it wasn't at the level of the major leagues. But Baseball Reference has upgraded all that data. So now we've got cemetery locations for a lot of Negro League ballplayers, not only the stars, the ones that are in the Hall of Fame or the ones that are pretty well known, but people who just had a cup of coffee there. Maybe someone who played five games for the New York Black Yankees or pick your team. So they're in there too now. And so we've got to try and track them down. And that gets really difficult because if you think old

cemeteries that were predominantly populated by white people are sometimes run down, the ones that were predominantly occupied by African Americans did not have nearly those kinds of funds. So they're not in great shape. And I've tried to find a couple of them, had very mixed luck. I've gotten a few successes, but a lot of failures because just those cemeteries are not well maintained. Finding information is pretty difficult. So people trying to move and find these locations. So we've got a little bit more work cut out for us now. cemetery where a lot of baseball luminaries are buried. What do you get out of making that pilgrimage out of being there and physically visiting, obviously, you know, erecting a marker or cleaning up the plot, whatever it is, it's a way to pay your respects and have other people remember who those people were and what they accomplished. But what do you feel when you visit one of these sites?

Is it just the physical, tangible connection to history that brings that, I guess, paradoxically to life for you? Yeah, I've been to the Hall of Fame. I've been to a lot of really great museums. And it's amazing to look and see uniforms belonging to Buck Leonard or Honus Wagner or pick your superstar there or artifacts that they have. But to me, it's just another level to actually be where they're buried and kind of pay that pilgrimage to them. And to me, it makes it all feel more real. And this is not to slight the Hall of Fame in any way, shape or form. But I mean,

to borrow from Jerry Seinfeld's old routine, you are kind of looking at just old laundry and this is not to slight the hall of fame in in any way shape or form but i mean you know to to borrow from jerry seinfeld's old routine you are kind of looking at just old laundry at that point it's um but to to be at the grave of you know some superstar that's that's real for me that that brings it all home for me and that inspires me to want to go back and you know for a player that i don't know very much about, to try and, you know, find the information. Who were they? Where, you know, I can find out where they played, but finding, if I can find a couple of quotes about what they thought about baseball, how they felt, how they acted, anything that I can get that's just beyond what you can summarize

from a stat line is a major victory for me because then I get to feel that I start to know who they were as a person, not just as a player. I almost referred to your interest in baseball as morbid earlier, and then it seemed to me that that had too negative a connotation. I guess in some literal sense, it's true. But of course, you don't have to find death disturbing or unpleasant. Some people take a stroll in a cemetery and they find it peaceful and comforting, right? And other people find it creepy and terrifying. Maybe it depends on what time of day or night it is.

But is that something that brings you calm, contemplating the end of others or even your own end? Or is that, I guess it's not something that you don't like to think about, or you probably wouldn't be constantly writing about baseball player passings, but is there sort of a philosophical, hey, this is a part of life aspect to it? Yeah. And early on when I was looking for a tagline for the website, I think one of the ones that I used was pretty morbid, but kind of interesting. So, you know, I get that that is, like I said, it's a niche and it's not everybody's niche. And I totally respect that. If you're not in the mood to think about your mortality or anybody's mortality, then that's perfectly fine.

But for me, like I said, I like finding out about a person's life. And for me, this is, it's a different way to take on baseball history, is to do it a life at a time instead of a team at a time or a league at a time. And so, that feeds my personal interest and my personal love of the game to do that. And, you know, just for the record, cemeteries are actually really quiet and peaceful. And if you go into, you know, some of the modern day ones where it's just nothing but flat graves, they're pretty boring and nothing too much there. But if you go to some of the ones that were put up kind of in the Victorian era, they were meant to be tourist attractions, really. They were destination locations. You would

pack a picnic and go out on a Sunday and eat with your family and walk around. And a lot of these places have lovely lakes and lovely scenic areas and walks. And so, you know, if you're lucky enough to live in an area where there is some Victorian cemetery, it's well worth taking just a walking tour of it. I hate to say you'll never know who you come across, but it really is that to a degree. I was in Oklahoma City, and I was there for work, but figured I'd take time, run over to a cemetery or two, and see if I could find a few of the folks who were buried there. And as I was looking there, I saw this massive monument and I went to check it out. And it was for the guy who founded the Sonic drive-thru chain, which is not something that I ever really thought about or ever would have found on my own, but it was like, wow, okay,

that's pretty interesting. But, you know, Chicago's Graceland Cemetery is home to a ton of ballplayers, most notably Ernie Banks. But there was an earlier grave marker project there for Bob Carruthers there. But if you go there, there's a lovely lake that you can walk around and you will find family after family. If you ever wondered where all the Chicago street names come from, they're all there. I forgot who they all are, but I know like Wacker Drive there and just a lot of the big areas in downtown Chicago at the Loop. All the families are there. And you go around a little bit further and there's Charles Dickens' kind of wayward brother, Augustus. He came to the United States and got married and didn't necessarily divorce

the woman that he left overseas, but he got married anyway. And it kind of was a bit of a scandal at the time, but there are architects, there are ballet dancers, artists, there's phenomenal sculpture around. So, it's more than just a final resting place, although that is there. There's an awful lot to see in these places. Yeah, you could start a network of spinoff sites, right? RIP fast food to cover the Sonic guy, just whoever you stumble across, right? Who has the grandest grave in baseball, or at least that you've seen, just a really ostentatious mausoleum? Who really went all out with their final resting place.

Ty Cobb has a pretty substantial mausoleum. The Ernie Banks monument that's in Graceland now is really nice. It looks like something that might have been sculpted in the Victorian era. And that's gone through a couple of different changes because for a time it was unmarked and then for another time it was a very small, modest marker, something as a placeholder while they were putting this larger one together. And now it's got one that's just gorgeous. If you go to Austin, Texas, there is a Austin National Cemetery there. And that is seriously a who's who of Texas history in there. Like Stephen Foster's there. There is, like everybody who is buried there, it's almost like they've got their LinkedIn profile like carved in stone.

There are judges and senators, but Willie Wells is there, El Diablo, and he's got a phenomenal monument and another marker that was added by the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. And then right across the way from him is Don Baylor, and that is a beautiful monument as well. And then there's Augie Guerrero, who was the head coach, I think, at Texas for a long time. the head coach, I think at Texas for a long time. There's not any marker there the last couple of times I was there, but they're imagining if it's going to be like the stones around it, they're getting ready to put up a massive mining for him too. So those two are pretty amazing. And just that whole cemetery as a whole is just astounding. whole cemetery as a whole is just astounding. Is there a most wanted list for missing grave sites or players we do not know where they repose?

It's getting harder and harder to find with modern players because that information doesn't always get included. So I'm sure there are a fairly large number of All-Stars Hall of Famers from the last four or five years who have passed away, and we haven't gotten information as to where they're buried yet. So I think we're waiting on a lot of that information to become public or at least get released to us so that we can let people know about it. There was, I found out, there was maybe upwards of about two dozen, maybe three dozen people who we don't know when they died.

And this is going back again to the 1800s. I think there's some guys who played in the 1870s, played from the National Association, and they just kind of went off and vanished and have no idea what happened to them. So no idea if that is information that will ever be able to be found because you know those records might not exist any longer but uh that would be it would be nice to be able to find some of those folks and put a little closure there yeah um i was there's been a couple people who tried to find uh the grave of john glenn who is maybe one of baseball's biggest villains. And it's a story that, again, the 1800s has got some wild stories to it, but he had kind of a modest career. I think he was a pretty decent fielder, not a terrible hitter, but...

Not the John Glenn that people may have immediately thought of when... Not the astronaut, no. Different John Glenn yeah who is a good friend of ted williams but right but yes yeah but this john glenn um he was actually shot by a police officer who was attempting to protect him from a lynch mob who was trying to murder him after he had assaulted a couple of girls and um he had went to a hospital uh the newspapers report that he died in great agony and i don't know that anybody necessarily feels bad about that, and that his body was taken away, and we have no idea where after that. So, again, if there are records that indicate these sort of things, they might be gone.

They might be buried in a box in a basement in some funeral home. We don't know. Well, until it's confirmed, they might be immortal. Just could be vampires. You just can't completely rule that out. It's funny, my former co-host Sam Miller once memorably made the case that the point of baseball is to entertain people and make them forget that we're all dying right in front of each other, that this is just a horrible,

rotten slog to rigor mortis, is how he put it. And you are kind of putting the lie to that, or at least you are focusing on the aspect of it that Sam said, we're all just watching baseball to try to forget. So there's something admirable, I think, in just confronting it head on and maybe also making it a little less scary, perhaps. I think if I were a baseball player, an aging baseball player, I might take some comfort in the fact that, hey, Sam's out there and I'm going to get a write-up at RIP Baseball when my time comes. Hopefully it won't be for a while, but at least I'll be remembered. I actually had gotten the chance to meet a baseball player through my wife's work. And he was in his 80s. And I was very hesitant. He asked me a little bit about my blog, and I was just very hesitant to mention it because-

Yeah, it's like you're the Grim Reaper or something. Yeah, exactly. I'm here to write about you. Yeah. And I felt really bad because one time in my life, I've written a story for the Saber Bio Project. It was for a book that they were working on for the Braves. So, I wrote a story about Dwight Smith. And then about two years later, he died.

And so, I kind of was like, I didn't do that, did I? I didn't wish that into the universe or anything. Right. Yeah, I have interviewed many nonagenarians and octogenarians and even centenarians on this podcast. I like history too. And I love talking to older players, especially some who are not marquee names, maybe, and they often have some of the best stories. And unfortunately, I suppose I sometimes get to them not long before you do, right? Because, you know, they don't always last a whole lot longer when they reach that age, which is one reason why I feel this need to talk to them while I still can. You know, when you get to them, they speak to you in a sense, but not in the same sense as if you can pick up a phone and call them. Yeah, yeah. I'm just pulling, I'm trying to do my best to pull my stories from newspaper archives. So anybody who can actually get ahold of them

while they're still living and maybe get a different take. Or sometimes it's really interesting to hear how the story changes over time too. Yeah, all of our memories are malleable, of course. But yeah, sometimes when baseball players will immediately recollect something or describe something that happened

and then maybe late in life, they will reminisce about the same event. And it sounds like a completely different event or some details certainly have changed. I mean, none of us is immune to that. But yeah, sometimes memory is flawed. Do you ever go to family members or talk to friends? Or do you have any desire to do that to add sort of a personal touch and get details that aren't already out there in the record? Or would you worry that that was intrusive or something? I don't know that I'd want to do that just because I think they probably are dealing with enough at the moment and they probably don't need some random guy. Day of, but yeah. What I do end up finding out is that invariably a lot of the obits that I write make their way to the family.

Sometimes they will add something to it. Sometimes they will say, well, there's a lot of stories here that even I didn't know. So that's always pretty nice. So I don't reach out to the family, but I do hear from them in that way. And they're usually very grateful or, you know, if I have omitted something, they'll let me know and so I can correct the record. But so I do have those interactions after the story has been published. That's funny. My co-host Meg says that, you know, sometimes fan graphs will publish

scouting reports on prospects, let's say, and often you will hear from a parent or a family member or something who wants to correct the record or object to something in there. This is a little different. This is the other end of the life cycle, I suppose, but similar in some ways. Are there obits that you are particularly proud of? Or maybe that's not even the way to put it, but I'm sure that when you hear of some player passings, those players may be new to you, or you may not know anything about them other than their name. And I'm sure part of the enjoyment that you derive from this is just being able to discover these guys, even if it's after they're gone. So were there some that really

opened your eyes? Like, how had I not heard of this guy? I'm sorry that I'm just learning about this player's amazing life. Oh, yeah. One of the first ones that really took off for me was when I wrote about a guy named Tom Waddell. And he had pitched for Cleveland in the 80s. And it was strange to me because that was the area where I was just starting to know baseball and was obsessively going over my baseball cards. And yet I was not familiar with the guy's story at all. The one thing that I saw in baseball reference that I thought was odd was that he was born in Scotland. There's not a lot of ton of people who are Scottish and especially now who are playing

baseball. So I thought that was interesting, but I dug into his life a little bit and it was absolutely, you know, he completely defied all of the normal methods of getting into baseball that you would hear about. Like normally you have a great high school or college career, you're drafted, you make your way up to the majors and you get there. He had gotten ill in his senior year of high school and didn't play at all. He had a decent career up until then, but that basically killed any hope of getting drafted. So with no draft and nobody looking to sign him afterwards, he ended up working for a clothing store in New York City. After work, he would go across and play for a local semi-pro team

and played enough that he got the attention of one of his neighbors who was a major league umpire. And the umpire had a connection with the Atlanta Braves. And so the Atlanta Braves flew him in for a tryout and he said he did well enough that they signed him to a minor league contract. And he joked that his signing bonus was a Hank Aaron autographed baseball, which he gave to a kid in the parking lot, and 20 bucks, which he then spent on a case of beer. And he made his way into the and this was a couple years after his eligibility. So, I mean, he was a 20-something in A-ball playing with a bunch of 18-year-olds. So, he caught up really quickly and eventually made it. He started off behind everybody, but he ended up surpassing everybody and got to AAA within, I think, just about a year or two.

And for the first year that he had, he was a phenomenal reliever. He actually got a couple of save opportunities, was really good. And then unfortunately the injury bug hit and he only pitched, I think two, maybe three years at tops. And, but just, you know, he was one of those guys that he had a good enough personality that when people interviewed him, they asked him more about baseball. So I was able to get a lot of the stories about how did he find his way? What was his tryout like? Afterwards, he became a youth coach. And so you could see some of his videos on YouTube.

And so I was listening to some, kind of wondering if I would hear a Scottish brogue or something. No, he was New York, totally. So that was fun to some, kind of wondering if I would hear a Scottish brogue or something. No, he was New York, totally. So that was fun to hear that. That was not what I was expecting at all. But that was one of the first cases where I wrote that. It got published, and then his wife left a message on the website saying that there are some stories that I'd never heard. Thank you for taking the time to write about my husband. That made that, and I get a compliment like that,

and that's enough to keep me powered for months at a time. Yeah, that's really nice. And every baseball player's got an interesting story, at least to us. They've all lived full and rich and interesting and varied lives. And I love the tagline that you did choose for your site. You say that a lot of baseball blogs talk about the goings on of MLB. You just focus on the goings. But where can people find you on various platforms? And if they're interested in getting into this world that you've gotten into, I'll link to the baseball player passing this group and those Sabre resources.

But if people want to check out, hey, who's buried near me that I could go make a visit or even help track down some information that isn't known, what can people do to get involved? involved? I'm at ripbaseball.com and I am over pretty much all of the multitude of social media websites that are out there now as RIP Baseball or RIP underscore MLB. So you can find me one way or the other through those ways. And then Baseball Reference has, you can find out where people are buried just going through there. And then if there is somebody – I've been to about 600 grave sites or so. I'm actually kind of small potatoes in the Fed Worth world, but that is out there. But if there is somebody that I have written about that you'd be interested in, I keep coordinates of everybody that I've visited. So I can, you know, if you want to pay a visit to Bill Wamsgantz or, you know, I just did a story about Charlie Greek George in New Orleans, Louisiana. So if you have an interest, I can

get you there. I'm sure when people see the name of the site, maybe sometimes they think, another person complaining about baseball dying. That's not the case. That's not what it's about. Baseball is alive and well, but sometimes the baseball players, they do die. And when they do, then you are there to write about it. And I'm glad that you are. So I really enjoy your work.

Thanks so much for coming on and telling us about it. Yeah, again, thank you for having me, Ben. This was fun. All right. There's your memento, Maury, for today. Thanks to Sam for discussing some matters of grave importance. By the way, both of our guests today, Portia and Sam, have sites where you can send them some cash to support their efforts. So I will link to those pages on our page in case you feel like sending them a few bucks.

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