Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2130: The Incomparably Comparable Catchers

Episode Date: February 29, 2024

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the Cubs signing Cody Bellinger, Scott Boras’s offseason, and what Bryce Harper’s walk year could portend for Juan Soto’s. Then (33:27) Ben and Meg talk to Ben Kramer and Robert Toner of the Anchorage Sports Association about the Fur Rendezvous Festival snowshoe softball tournament and the finer points […]

More than 2,000 episodes retrospectively filed, and at each new one we still collectively smile. That's Effectively Wild. That's Effectively Wild. Hello and welcome to episode 2130 of Effectively Wild, a Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Raleigh of Fangraphs and I am joined by Ben Lindberg of The Ringer. Ben, how are you? Doing all right. How are you? I'm all right. We got some closure on Cody Bellinger. It's about time. We have some closure on Cody Bellinger. We have the potential for a reopening in due time. But yes, we have for now closure on Cody Bellinger. We have the potential for a reopening in due time. But yes, we have

for now closure on Cody Bellinger. Yes, the matter is at least temporarily settled because Cody Bellinger has signed with the Chicago Cubs for three years and $80 million. Although, as you're alluding to, there are multiple opt-outs in this deal. So it's really a few one year deals in a row. He gets to decide whether he wants to stay after the first year, after the second year. It's a 30, 30, 20 structure. Now, here's one thing we know. This is another devastating blow to you in the offseason free agent contracts draft. It is. We knew that this was likely to be the winning move. Right. We didn't really fight over the first overall pick in the over-under draft, but I think we both knew that, or at least suspected strongly that this estimate was

optimistic. $262 million prediction by MLB Trade Rumors. There's a reason why that was the number one draft pick in our draft. Yeah, it seems like too high a number. And, you know, I'm not trying to make anybody at Trade Rumors feel bad. Like, you know, it's fine to want good things for people. But we suspected that the good things would be, you know, a little less rich when it came right down to it. So there you go. Yeah.

And you had pulled ahead as of our last update. But we knew that there were other shoes that had to drop, including this one. And there still are because you've still got Blake Snell on your board. And I still have Montgomery and Chapman. You've still got Blake Snell on your board, and I still have Montgomery and Chapman. We've got the Boris Four, who are now the Boris Three, unless we're going to elevate J.D. Martinez to being part of the Four, then it would have to have retroactively been a Boris Five. But this is not settled, but the difference between 262 and 80, that was a bigger blow

to your chances than even the Shohei Otani number being what it was. So it will be tough for you to continue your comeback. But look, I've counted you out before and thought better of it. So I'm not going to count you out until all the contracts are signed and the dust is settled. I'll put it this way, Ben. Otani's deal just like detonating my board so early. I like to think that I was a good sport about it, one could say, hey, Meg, why did you think he would sign a normal deal? That was ridiculous of you to assume. So, like, I felt not good about losing on those terms. These are terms that I expected. You know, it's easier to swallow. So, yeah, Cody Bellinger for a wild cub.

It's possible that people care more about the real world baseball implications of this contract than the effectively wild free agent contracts over under draft implications. And so just in case that is true, we can maybe consider what this means for the Cubs. Now, it's not so surprising that he ultimately landed back in Chicago. This was sort of the most predictable outcome. The way it happened or when it happened was maybe somewhat surprising. But we had a feeling that there was mutual interest here. There was a reason for these two to re-up. We even talked about that on our Cubs preview.

So it didn't really take us by surprise, but it is an important addition for them. And the uncertainty about how Cody Bellinger will play is obviously a big part of why he signed this contract and not that contract, the predicted contract. But even so, this could be decisive because the Cubs and Cardinals and Brewers and Reds even, all these teams are really bunched up. If you look at the Fangraphs playoff odds from first to worst in the Central right now is about six and a half wins separating the Cardinals and the Pirates.

a half wins separating the Cardinals and the Pirates. So whether you think that Bellinger is a two or three win player or a five or six win player, if you're super optimistic, then this could very well make the difference. I think that this actually did catapult the Cubs over the Cardinals in some projection systems. The Fangraphs playoff odds still have the Cardinals as the narrow favorites here. But we're talking division odds of 36% versus 24%, about a two-win separation. So the Cubs really were at the point on the win curve. We're adding a Cody Bellinger, whatever Cody Bellinger is now. Those wins are pretty important. There's the actual production that they hope to get from him. That's obviously quite important,

but I also like this for the additional insurance that it provides them, as we talked about, was hot of like the way that they were constituted prior to bringing Bellinger back, back really counting on like michael bush being aces and uh and then potentially um strong contributions from pete crowe armstrong their top prospect and i imagine that they still hope that those things are true right and if you look at the way that our depth charts are currently constituted like we expect that they will get meaningful production from both of those young guys but there's always the possibility that they won't and you know i think that in some ways like pca is a more extreme version of bellinger's own profile where his defensive acumen which is incredible like he is a superlative center field defender. At some point we should talk about how I feel like I've been center field

defense pilled lately. We can talk about that later, but I'm, I feel like I'm, I'm at a point where I'm, if it's possible, potentially overrating the importance of defense, but I,

I, I'm, I'm really, you know, my estimates of guys sort of baseline production has trended strong in an upward direction if they can play really good center field. Anyway, that's like center field defense is valuable. News at 11. You know, that's not.

It is a weak time for center field just as a position. So maybe that makes you appreciate center field production even more. There aren't a lot of star center fielders out there and some of the star center fielders maybe shouldn't be center fielders anymore. So that does tend to make you appreciate the few who really can do it. I know you're mostly talking about defense, but overall, there aren't a whole lot of guys who fit that profile right now. Yeah, you're, you're right. It's like, it's not quite Julio or bust, but like it's a, You're right. It's not quite Julio or bust, but it's a small contingent. But anyway, PCA, as I was saying, is in some ways a more extreme version of Bellinger's profile,

where the defense really does give him a solid floor in terms of what he can contribute on a big league roster. And he's actualized power in a way that I think everyone was kind of surprised by in the last couple of years. But there are concerns around the hit tool that could be a big problem for him. And then Michael Bush has been great at AAA, but also has struggled in the brief big league time he's gotten. So in addition to what Bellinger will hopefully be able to do just for himself wherever he's deployed, his ability to be a meaningful stopgap at both of those positions, I think brings a lot of value to Chicago as well. surrounding this has been about Scott Boris, the agent of Cody Bellinger, and whether this is a loss for Boris, whether Boris has lost it. We got an email from... Hands overplayed.

Yeah, right. We got an email from listener Brian, who says, I'd be curious to know if this offseason represents a shift in power between Boris and Pobos. Boris used to be able to go straight to owners to land big deals, but it seems like with most teams following the same models, including organizational structure, that's not an option and Pobos are content to wait him out. So I think, you know, people are always eager to pile on Scott Boris because he is not well liked by many people who follow baseball. I think somewhat unfairly in some ways, but he is really good at his job. That is the perception and also the reality in general. I know that there have been some studies to that effect that have shown that he gets his

clients paid. Now, not in every case, obviously, and not particularly in Cody Bellinger's case. And we'll see where the chips fall with his remaining clients here. But Bellinger's deal doesn't bode well for them, I suppose. And so I wonder to what extent you can extrapolate from this and say, bad job, Boris. Because it's not that it is such a bad deal for Cody Bellinger relative to his projected production. Like the Zips projection for Bellinger is basically this, if not less than this. Jay Jaffe had that courtesy of Dan Saborski in his transaction analysis for Fangraphs. The reasons why Bellinger didn't get paid more were pretty

predictable and pretty reasonable. Probably everyone has their doubts about Cody Bellinger because he's gone from being one of the best players in baseball to one of the worst players in baseball back to being pretty good again, but being good in a way where there was some question about the sustainability of it. And so even if you think, OK, it was just health and injury issues, and now he's back to full strength and he'll be good again. But there are still questions about the quality of contact and how hard he hit the ball and can he keep that up? I think the floor is pretty high just because of the defensive acumen

that you mentioned and the positional flexibility and the youth. But the bat remains something of a question mark. So really, the fact that this is seen as disappointing probably stems from the fact that there were some people predicting much bigger numbers, and Boris and Bellinger were reportedly seeking much bigger numbers. I know it was reported by Bob Nightingale, at least, that Bellinger was seeking in excess of $250 million. And if that's a number that Boris put out there and circulated to try to juice Bellinger's market, and then he doesn't end up with that contract, well, even if that number was sort of unrealistic to begin with, then I guess he's hoisted by his own petard here.

He's kind of a victim of inflating that number to try to inflate his market. And I guess you could judge them based on that. At the same time, when we saw numbers like that, we immediately picked the under because we thought there's no way. Right. So do you fault Boris for this or does this count as a strike against Boris? A couple of things can be true simultaneously. I think that Boris could have, in this instance, sort of overshot the mark, although I don't think it's unreasonable to view that as like a negotiating tactic, right? To say this is what we want in the hopes that he is able to affect a similar sort of approach that he has in prior years where some owner somewhere is just like well i really like

cody bellinger so i guess we're gonna give him 200 million dollars congratulations guys you know yeah you know in much the same way that i don't want to credit him for like four-dimensional chess where there isn't any. I also am conscious of the fact that like the back and forth of negotiations is very much like a messy process that may or may not be reflective of what his real understanding of Cody Bellinger's market is, but could be somewhat aspirational. But he didn't get him $200 million. So we should acknowledge that. But I think like the, you know, reports of Scott Boris's demise are perhaps greatly exaggerated also, because like, do you remember how Jose Altuve signed a five-year $125 million extension and he is going to be 34 in like three months. He's a Scott Boris client, right? So like, you know, I don't think that he has to bat a thousand for him to be viewed as

someone who tends to get very good results for his clients. And I also think that, you know, we want to be mindful of the macro environment around free agency. So like this year, there was the Otani situation, there was Yamamoto. And then, you know, we had what we viewed to be a relatively weak class, particularly on the position player side. And into that already perceived to be less good talent environment, you had the injection of uncertainty around the RSN situation. And I think we can have a, you know, we can talk about like how much that should have mattered and how real those concerns were versus how convenient those concerns were for owners. And like, that's probably a conversation, but I think that he gets good results for his guys a lot of the time. And if

you have a client who is perceived to be flawed in a way that is backed by data, a good way to sort of maximize his earning over the long term is to get him paid, first of all, a high AAV deal in the short term and give him the option to opt out, you know, when he may have been able to say, okay, last year, all of my peripherals, all of my underlying quality of contact data suggested that I was not in fact a 134 WRC plus hitter that I might regress pretty significantly that I might not always run a 319 BABIP, but I'm only going to be like 29 next year. So maybe I'll be super awesome. I just made 30 million bucks and then I'll opt out and do something else.

And I'm still a really good center field defender with other positional versatility besides. So I don't think it's like an unequivocal victory for Boris, but I don't think that I, you know, I came away from this winter being like, losing a tick on the fastball. Although, you know, they didn't insist on micing him at winter meetings. So maybe they know, Ben, maybe they know. They didn't want us to hear him, you know? Yeah, we did question whether his wordplay game was slipping somewhat. It was not the best year for him in that respect either. But maybe that reflected a lack of enthusiasm about the market of these particular clients. That is also reflected on team's part because I think you can point to these players and say that they're players with warts to use the moneyball figurative terminology. I know nothing about whether they have actual physical warts.

I'm just saying. Don't care to know. There are questions about all of these guys. They were still toward the upper tier and echelon of free agents in a weak free agent market. But all of them were kind of like, I don't know. You know, the track record here is not super long or the injury history or whatever it is. Right. Even Blake Snell being a reigning Cy Young Award winner.

Everyone's kind of like, I don't know. So I think that those reservations are something that can't really be held against Boris. And he got Jung-Hoo Lee a good contract. Yeah. Double what he was predicted to get in many places. Right, this is my point. Yeah. It's not like it's been such a long time since we've seen Boris do well.

No. We're just so used to him. Right. It's like, I guess part of the question that we have to answer in order to answer the larger question is like, what is our barometer here? Like, what's the yardstick for success? Because to your point, he got Zheng He Li much more money than I thought he was going to. Remember Xander Bogart signing a $280

million deal? He's a Boris guy. Remember last year when the Giants continued to just not be able to sign marquee-free agents when they wanted to, including realizing that they did not trust in any way, shape, or form Carlos Correa's lower half. And the way that Boris dealt with that was to trampoline Michael Conforto into a surprisingly rich deal. There are always going to be a mix of guys who get way overpaid, and there are going to be guys who maybe get paid like what is kind of something that's reasonable giving given the flaws that they have in their profile and i think that our instinct as a as an industry is if boris isn't getting a guy overpaid relative

to expectation and by a dramatic amount we're like oh, oh, this was a complete failure. And it's like, well, is that true? Like, is that the right way to think about these? It's a testament to his track record, right? If he fails to get anyone 200 million, even if it doesn't seem like someone whose skills in production would command that, then you think, oh, he's slipping because he's been doing that for decades. So I think he's entitled to one off year, off season, given this client roster.

And because he's the person who popularized the pillow contract, I mean, he kind of owns that. I guess you could say that any pillow contract is kind of a concession because the pillow contract is what you do when you can't get the enormous long-term deal. And you say, okay, we'll take the pillow contract is kind of a concession because the pillow contract is what you do when you can't get the enormous long-term deal. And you say, okay, we'll take the pillow contract. It'll be a one-year deal. We'll rebuild our value. We'll come back. We'll take another crack at it next offseason. And so, yeah, I guess the player and agent would always prefer to sign the super

long-term lucrative deal now instead of the pillow contract. And so it is some kind of failure. But again, if Bellinger just goes out and has another good year, then he will still be young enough to get an enormous contract next offseason when there's less uncertainty about him, at least, if not about the TV situation. And like he got how much money for both Corey Seager and Marcus Simeon? I know Seager is a Boris client. I'm pretty sure Simeon is too away. That happens too, right? But yeah, I don't, I don't like, what are we rooting for here? Right? Like, I think a lot of people are rooting for Scott Boris to fail. We're not, we're not invested in that. We don't have a horse in that particular race. The only, the only way that we're invested is that we want better wordplay. Not every signing has to be a referendum on Scott Boris's job performance, probably,

because he has a long enough track record, right? We can continue to re-evaluate, but I don't know that we need to draw a earth-shaking conclusion from one deal. Let's see how the other guys sign and where and when for one thing. So I had one other observation about another Boris client and outfielder, Juan Soto. Did you see that Juan Soto dove for a ball in the outfield in a game the other day? It stood out to me. And you're always looking for things in spring training that might be predictive, that might be telling of what's to happen in the season to come. And Juan Soto just dove and rolled. And it was sort of a scary moment because it looked like, you know, you never know if they jam their wrist or anything. But he didn't come up with the ball, but he went all out on this play in the first inning in a spring training game in February. And I think a lot of people were like, chill out, like, be careful, Juan, you know, save it for the regular season. This thought to me because I remember that when Bryce Harper was entering his walk year or in his contract year, in his walk year, his last year with the Nationals, it really was a walk year for him because he never dove or slid in the outfield that season. And his defensive metrics were pretty awful that season. And I wrote

something at the time about this and I dug up some numbers courtesy of Sports Info Solutions because he'd had terrible defensive ratings. And also, at least subjectively, it looked like the effort wasn't quite there. He was not diving and sliding for balls. And I was able to quantify this with the help of SIS, who they track leaps and dives and slides and such. Incredible. And Harper almost never slid or dove that whole season, which was kind of unusual for him. Now, maybe it was wise. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. You should try to stay on your feet and not hurt yourself. But especially when you have an enormous payday coming. And in Harper's case, at least, his team was not great at the time. And so you say, should I go all out for this one or maybe I'll wait. So I found or SAS supplied me with the stats that in 764 opportunities in

right field from 2016 to 2017, Harper dove 11 times and slid 17 times in 506 combined opportunities in right and center in 2018, his walk year, he dove one time and slid four times. And among the 21 outfielders with at least 460 opportunities, Harper. His defensive metrics reflected that. Not that he usually graded out as a great outfielder, but that year was particularly poor. And then the next year when he was safely on the Phillies, he bounced back a bit and looked a little more energetic out there. So I don't know. I don't want to question his motivations, but coincided with a time when you'd think that you might play it safe. And coincidentally or not, it was his first pro season without a single day lost to injury. And so I wondered whether the same would be true for Juan Soto because Juan Soto doesn't have a lot of leeway when it comes to outfield defense.

I know he was a gold glove finalist, oddly, a couple of seasons ago, but he's been like first percentile and third percentile in outfield outs above average the past couple of seasons. So Juan Soto, who was maybe not doing the dive, for all I know, when he dives, it's ill-advised. I don't know. But if he were going at less than full effort as he enters a free agency or prepares to, then he might really be a liability out there. So the fact that he was diving in a spring training game kind of makes me think maybe not. Maybe he will not actually be putting his future free agent earnings in front of his effort in the outfield. So I guess that's good news. Or maybe it means nothing at all. But it stood out to me that he would be doing that in February of all

times. Maybe, you know, he's just trying to make a good impression in his new city, Ben. You know, maybe he doesn't want anyone to think that he's a malingerer. It's a fun word. It's a good word. We don't have enough opportunities to say malingerer. It's a fun word. It's a good word. We don't have enough opportunities to say malingerer. It's not a word that you want applied to you. But if that's the case, yeah, save it for April. Save it for opening day when more people are watching and you can create that first impression. Maybe he got a call from Scott after that. Juan, you know, be careful out there. There's a big payday for us riding on this. I also wouldn't be surprised if he got a call from Scott after that. Juan, you know, be careful out there. There's a big payday for us riding on this. I also wouldn't be surprised if he got a call from the Yankees who were like,

hey, buddy, we really need you out there. A lot of this offense being productive is predicated on you being able to hit every day. So please don't. I have thought, though, to go back to Brian's question that what he said about Boris not being able to themselves more business minded and less likely to fall prey to a Scott Boris binder or someone's stats being pumped up, right? Or they're just kind of cheap and not willing, not susceptible to that sort of pitch. Or they're more likely to defer to their baseball people. And yet, I haven't really noticed any sign of that. So it's not like the front office structure and ownership structure of teams flipped completely this offseason.

If that were the case and he were being blocked in those appeals, then you'd think we would have seen that manifesting itself in recent years. And I really haven't noticed that. So he has managed to remain successful, whether he's going over the heads of the executives or he's just able to turn their heads himself. It really hasn't seemed to me that the Boris schtick doesn't work anymore when it comes to selling his clients to teams. There was a receptive audience to both the general idea of spending and his particular guys in San Diego. And now that Seidler has passed,

we kind of have to wait and see like what their eventual approach will be. If they get to a point where they want to spend money again, John Middleton still seems to want to spend money, but that roster is pretty complete, right? The way that they spent their money this year was bringing Nola back in Philly. So,

oh, and Whit Merrifield. I am so sorry. I forgot Whit Merrifield. I am so sorry. I don't get the Whit Merrifield type, but that's neither here nor there. So you look at teams like, you know, like the Rangers are pretty stacked and complete, even if their pitching strategy is somewhat terrifying. And then you just had a lot of teams this year that were, like I said, sort of in a weird holding pattern because of TV stuff. So there probably are receptive ownership suites out there, but maybe this is just not a fruitful year for them.

And a lot of that just comes down to the quality of the players that were available in free agency. And again, it's not like they're all bad. Like, you know, they're free agents to be had who are useful, good additions. And there are some guys on that list who, like, you win because of, not just with. But they both play for the Dodgers. We'll see how Juan Soto does. As long as he doesn't dive and slide and turn an ankle or break a wrist, I think he's going to do just fine. Just fine.

Yeah. Okay. We've got a couple interviews for you today, and I think they'll both be fun ones, a little bit off the beaten path here. And both were suggested to us by people, and we were only too happy to take these suggestions. So, at the end of the episode, I will be conducting a conversation with two journeyman catchers whose journeys have proceeded along remarkably similar paths. Ryan LaVarnway and Tim Federovich, who you may remember from their 10 and 8 year careers

in the majors, respectively. It was pointed out to us more than two years ago by Patreon supporter Stuart Joyce that they are basically baseball doppelgangers. Now, Baseball Reference uses Bill James' similarity scores to list the most similar players for any given player. Turns out that you need at least 500 at-bats in the majors to qualify, and neither LaVarnway nor Fedorovich quite got there. But it's hard for me to imagine that any other players could be more similar to them or to each other than these guys, considering the whole arc of their careers. I will save the specifics, all of the ways that their careers resemble each other for when I start that segment.

But they have had almost identical paths through baseball. And I thought it would be fun to get them both on the podcast to reminisce a little bit about that. They started in the same organization at the same time. So they know each other. They've crossed paths. They've followed each other's careers. And I wanted to ask how they feel about those careers in retrospect. They're playing careers.

They're now into coaching and managing in the minors, but unbelievably eerily similar kinds of careers. And so I wanted to ask them about that and see if they feel the same way about those similar careers. And I've been trying to arrange that interview for quite some time, and I'm happy that it has finally come together. Before that, though, we will be talking about snowshoe softball, of all things. I mean, or the most effectively wild thing, you know? Right. Yeah. We've talked about baseball on ice early in the podcast history. So this is baseball on snow and also on snowshoes.

So this one was suggested by our producer, Shane McKeon, who alerted me months ago to the fact that there's a popular annual tournament in Alaska in Anchorage. The Fur Rendezvous Festival holds a snowshoe softball tournament. And we are about to talk to two gentlemen who administer the Anchorage Sports Association and oversee this tournament, Ben Kramer and Robert Toner, because they just played the latest tournament this past weekend. And we had a lot of questions as it turned out. I have a lot of questions about the fact that this exists and how it's played. And in fact, after we concluded the interview, they commended us on reading the rules of the tournament and coming prepared to talk about snowshoe baseball and softball, which evidently a lot of their coaches and team managers did not do. So we were better prepared for this interview than some people were to play in the snowshoe softball tournament. I take pride in that.

Yeah. I mean, I... Do you think you'd fall? I'm sure I'd fall. I would so. I'd fall immediately. I think I have only snowshoed. I have only been snowshod once in my life, and I remember it being awkward and requiring quite a bit of exertion. Now, I ski and I ice skate, so I think that probably prepares me better than most maybe. But I think it's still

a whole different ballgame, clearly, to try to play softball or baseball on snowshoes. And as we will cover, falling is quite common. I love snowshoeing. I think it is a beautiful way to be in nature if one is given the opportunity. It will use muscles that you are not aware you have and you feel a special kind of sore the next day, but it is great, wonderful fun. And I am confident I'm going to do a swear and you decide if we need to bleep it out. I'm confident I would eat immediately upon trying to play softball and snowshoes, particularly these ones, as we will get into in the interview. Yes. All right. Let's take a quick break. And we'll be back with a couple of fellows to talk about the Anchorage softball snowshoe tournament. And after that, I will talk to Ryan LaVarnway and Tim Federovich about basically being the same guy. All right, if like me, you have spent some time lately immersed in creepy content about Alaska, courtesy of HBO's True Detective Night Country, maybe you're in the mood for a palate cleanser,

some wholesome Alaska content. And I don't know what could be more wholesome and silly than this. It is time to talk for the first time ever on Effectively Wild about snowshoe softball. I don't know what's taken us this long, but we are rectifying our oversight now with the help of two guests and coworkers. One is Ben Kramer, who is the executive director of the Anchorage Sports Association. Hello, Ben. Hi there. And we're also joined by Robert Toner, Program Director for the Anchorage Sports Association. Hello, Robert.

Hello. Thanks for having us. Thanks for coming on. So let's set the scene before we drill down to the snowshoe softball of it all and talk about the event that snowshoe softball is just one part of, the Fur Rendezvous Festival or Fur Rondi or Rondi. I guess it goes by many names. So tell us, Ben, a little bit about the history of this event and how it's grown and what else it involves. So the Fur Rondi event is something that started way back in the 1930s. Back then, Anchorage had a population of about 3,000. It started as a sort of an opportunity for trappers to come in and meet and sell and trade their goods. And then also the population here in

Anchorage to connect with those guys and purchase products. Initially, it was really a bunch of sports competitions. So different native events such as like blanket toss, they did running of the reindeer, started off as a kickoff for the world championships of dog sledding, which is still ongoing. It's grown to include a lot of other events. They do ice sculptures now. There's a huge fur auction that happens every year, along with a curling tournament and some other events, one of which is snowshoe softball. And Robert, tell us how that entered the picture and how the tournament works.

When did this start? The original start was a baseball game in 1971. And then it transferred over to slow pitch softball because I think that's a little more inclusive of everybody. And that happened in 1972, the first slow pitch softball game. We actually know one of the guys that played in the very first one still. His name is Rod Hill. He actually works with us on occasion, and he was at the event this weekend. So it's kind of fun.

How might it differ, apart from the obvious presence of snowshoes and snow, how do the rules of the tournament differ from what our listeners might be used to in their own sort of rec league softball games? Well, first off, there is a great equalizer, and that's the snowshoe. And everybody's required to wear the same one. So we are supplied by Rondi with old military-style surplus snowshoes. So they're not the greatest snowshoes around. So everybody brings a little extra straps or whatever to hold them on so once that's on you

know for the most part it actually is very similar to a regular rec league softball game you hit the same kind of balls they're just painted red so they can find them when they go in the snow and then use regular bats regular bases they're a little shorter we play play about 55 60 feet instead of 70 or whatever you know know. And then you can't dive, slide when you're running bases for safety purposes. And hopefully the snow's not super deep. So if you fall down, you can get back up. Now in Anchorage, how comfortable are people on snowshoes typically? I mean, I'm sure it varies. And snowshoe softball is a little different from other forms of snowshoeing. But is this like just about everyone has snowshoe experience or is it more of a specialized skill?

I believe it's a specialized skill. I'm originally from Arizona and I played in it probably four years ago, I believe it was. And I was not very skilled in snowshoes. So I spent more time getting up out of the snow than I did walking on top of it. It was pretty difficult task for me, but there's some veterans out there that they're really fast. They're really good. You know, part of, well, you asked what one of the difference of rules are. So if the game ends tied, we play for 45 minutes. And if it ends tied, instead of going into extra innings,

they do a snowshoe runoff. The fastest players from both teams start at second base, and the first one home wins, and that's how you decide the tiebreaker. So it's a little difference of a little caveat we have special with the snowshoe here. And are the teams that competing together for long stretches of the year, are there any sort of titans of snowshoe softball that have reigned supreme, or is there a lot of turnover year to year? I've been directing for two years, and I've been involved with it for about three or four now. We have had one team that won back-to-back, and they won last year and this year. It's Wetsu, and they do play in our normal softball leagues as well. But for the most part, it's a lot of, a lot of teams, just like people just pick up to play for fun. Cause it's, it's a really,

it's a great to watch cause it's really funny. A lot of people fall, a lot of people are stuck in the snow, they're chasing the ball all over. So, I mean, it's, it's a great thing to witness. So, you know, outside of having fun playing, you know, it's a great sport to to sit down on the bleachers and watch people struggle out there to get around the bases and hit the ball and other stuff. So I have a great time directing the tournament every year and people have a great time and we've had really good participation. As far as participation team wise, we're pretty close to a lot of our normal tournaments that we run over the summer. Last year, we had 18 teams, and this year we had 15.

That's not too bad for our normal tournaments over the summer. We're typically getting into the 25 range, so it's pretty close to our normal participation. There's a lot of fresh faces when it comes to snowshoe. Guys and gals we don't see in our normal leagues uh participate in the snowshoe so it's it's fun everybody enjoys it and they have a good time every year i've never never really had a whole lot of complaints about it because they're there for fun more so than than to win it all we actually had a team from the uk reach out to us this year about coming to play in the tournament it didn't pan out but uh we welcome all comers every year we get we get some interesting new faces that will come out

just to take a stab at running around the bases in snowshoes. And to paint the picture, these snowshoes, like Robert said, are big military surplus snowshoes. So they're, gosh, they're probably four feet long or so, three, four feet long. I don't know if they're quite four feet, but they feel like it when they're strapped on your feet. Yeah. And I'll tell you my first experience with it. I was out there at the fields the first year I was involved. And the number of folks I saw with bruises on their backs

from slapping themselves with the snowshoes. It's pretty funny to see the chaos out there every year. Ben, what would ideal snowshoe softball weather be and how close did you come this past weekend? You know, anything below freezing is good for us. Once it gets slushy, it gets a little scary, you know, especially if we get melt and then it turns into ice. That's when it's not a whole lot of fun to play out there. So we like at least a foot or two of snow to cushion the fall this weekend was pretty phenomenal i would say we had some good sun weather stayed cold toner can comment more on that he was out there the whole weekend as well yeah it snowed it snowed quite a bit on saturday pretty much snowed the whole day saturday and it was a little dreary out there gray skies and and uhfall. But the nice thing about gray skies, it stays a little

warmer. So it was nice and warm on Saturday. And then Sunday, we had the sun shining. It was beautiful. With it glistening off the snow, it's pretty bright, but it's a little more chilly. So I think we had probably a 10-degree swing. But this year, I don't know if you guys have heard, we've had record snowfall here in Anchorage. And we've had over six feet of snowfall this year. So the fields probably had a standing, I bet four, four and a half feet of snow on them. So the first few games are always the most difficult because the snow's soft. But after you get about six, seven games on each field, it kind of compacts a little bit and the players have a little bit easier time running across the top of the snow on it at least on the

infield because it gets compact a little bit then the struggle is really just with the outfielders trying to dredge through the snow to get a ball hit to the outfield and a lot of times if it gets hit out there especially late in tournament when the infield's nice and the outfield. And a lot of times if it gets hit out there, especially late in tournament, when the infield's nice and the outfield's still rough, person's going to go all the way around and score because it's hard to get to the balls out there still. Yeah. I was going to ask her, are there a lot of inside the park home runs just because of how treacherous the outfield can be? Absolutely. Yeah. That's probably the most common thing. If you hit a ball over an outfielder's head a lot of the times, if you don't score, you're getting a third. But that's what the equalizer snowshoes are for, though, too. If you've got somebody that hits the ball far and's why we paint it red so it's easier to find out there. But sometimes they don't

find them. I think this year we lost about a dozen red balls out there and that's not too bad over 29 games. So you find them in the spring, I guess. And the ground rule is just if the ball is lost

it's in play? Or is that an automatic some type of hit or something? If it's lost, the runner keeps running until it's found. If the runner scores and that's the end of the play and we put a new ball in play. I see. So what does this do to hitting mechanics when you're on snowshoes? Because I read in the rules that everyone starts with a one-two count, right? And a foul ball is an out. So you're encouraging just a

quick action here. So what kind of leverage can you get? What kind of balance can you get when you're swinging? Like, do you pick up a foot with a snowshoe on it when you swing or are you just, I wonder just how that affects power? I've seen a lot of different styles out there. You don't really see the big leg kick though. That's something that doesn't really coincide with snowshoe. The dynamics of a normal swing involves a lot of rotation with the hips and twisting of feet and lower body generating into a rotational swing, but the snowshoe doesn't allow that. So it tends to be more arm strength and hip rotation rather than lower leg movement. It just doesn't.

The snowshoes don't allow that. And if you do try, you usually end up falling down. But there's still guys that hit them out. I think I saw four home runs this weekend. So there's still people that can put power into it. And in the years where you don't have record snow, has it ever been to the point where you haven't been able to play in snowshoes? Because I know if you get too light of snow dusting, they're not really workable, right? Yeah, that's true too. I think there's been a few years where people have told me they were ice skating out there.

But yeah, they're still required to wear the snowshoes as long as there's any form of thing out there. And I do believe I heard one time they weren't able to because there wasn't enough snow and they played in snow. They call it snow boot then. So you just play in your boots. But that's pretty rare. Like I think that's – as far as I know, as far as anybody I've ever talked to that's played in it, it's only happened once. And for either of you, is snowshoe softball, that's a difficult thing to say, snowshoe softball or snowshoe baseball, are those common events in Alaska over the winter or is it sort of confined to this festival or other isolated events? As far as I know, the actual snowshoe tournament, that's the only one that is in Alaska that I know of.

There's other places in other towns that hold snow boot tournaments. So you're required to wear a boot when you play, but not necessarily a snowshoe. So there's a couple of those. Like there's one of those coming up next month in a different town. I believe it's in Nelchik. But yeah, there's pretty much when you're required to wear a snowshoe, this is the only one that I know of. You know of any other, Ben?

Yeah, I was going to say probably as far as organized tournaments go, we're likely the only one in the state here. But I wouldn't be surprised if there's some small towns around Alaska that maybe throw together a goofy game like that every once in a while. Yeah. Just from searching, I know that some other states have their own traditions of snowshoe softball tournaments that have been going on for some time, too. So who won this year? How competitive was it? This year, the winner, actually the back-to-back winner, so the same winner last year and this year is a team called Wetsu. They're one of our local Anchorage summer teams.

And the games this year were very, very competitive. The year I played, I don't recall anybody scoring more than three runs. Last year, I also directed the tournament, and I don't really remember anybody scoring more than four or five. And this year, there was a lot of teams getting up in the tens. So there's a lot more offense this year than what I think normally occurs. And then as far as competitiveness, the top three games, the last three games were all really, really close or high scoring. The championship game went to an if game.

So Wetsu lost, I think Ball Too good was the name of the team that finished second. They actually beat Wetsu by a run rule in the championship game. And then Wetsu was undefeated, so obviously they got the if game. And then Wetsu, I think, won by two runs in the if game of the championship. So I believe the final score is at 9-7 for that game. So they were all really, really close. And it came down to the last batter. Ball too good had two people on.

Actually, I believe they had a person on second and third. They were down by two with the last batter in their lineup. So snowshoe, another rule, you get a hit till you get three outs or everybody in your lineup is hit and you can hit up to, you know, as many people as you want. So their last out was a foul ball with the bases loaded. That just was off just a little bit foul down the left line. That was the end of the game. So, so it was very close and it was some, some really good games this year, very high scoring games, a lot of great players out there, and it was good weather and good times. So if you're on base, then just any part of your snowshoe has to be in contact with the base,

so you could be a few feet off the base and still be considered on the base. That is correct. Okay. So some people are probably beating out balls just by a snowshoe, buy half a snowshoe. The modified leadoff. Yeah. Same with the people playing first base. You know, they get a little bigger stretch because the back of the snowshoe is on the base.

Right. And have there ever been any snowshoe-related injuries? I know that you're trying to reduce the possibility with the lack of sliding and whatnot, but have there been any grizzly collisions? You know, no, not that I've been involved in since I've been there the last couple of years. Obviously, we try to prevent it with no diving and sliding when you're running the bases. People still forget and try to do it every once in a while. Luckily, we haven't had to deal with any of that. And I'm sure they do it unintentionally quite often.

Yeah. Yeah, it happens. I mean, when you're used to doing it regular ball and you go out and you just get aggressive and you go diving into one of the bags and the ball or the play is close, you know, trying to hurt nobody or anything, you kind of get to that groove where you're, you're going into normal mode and out there, we just don't allow it. But yeah, I think worst injury we had this year, somebody dislocated their finger and that was, that was about it.

They did it when they were hitting. So that was, that was about the worst injury we had this year, you know, and I've never seen anything other, other than that, you know? Yeah. And well, so I know that you, you have eight-run mercy rule right after half an hour. And then, as you say, an inning ends after three outs or when everyone has batted, however many people you have in your lineup. But it sounds like the offensive environment, the scoring environment is not way out of whack. I was wondering whether it would be super high scoring or super low scoring because on the one hand, it's cold.

Maybe the ball doesn't carry so well. It's hard to hit on snowshoes and it's hard to run on snowshoes. But then as you discuss, it's hard to field on snowshoes. It's hard to do everything. I guess it kind of balances out in the end. And the scores seem sort of what we're familiar with, more or less. seem sort of what we're familiar with, more or less? Oh, yeah. Yeah, the snowshoe is a great equalizer. So they really do prevent both sides from being effective. Yeah.

And I read that rings are awarded to the top three teams and the champions get sweatshirts. Is that right? You're playing for sweatshirts? Yeah, the rings are a new thing this year. We typically have been handing out trophies, but we want to do something a little different. The prizes for the Ferrandi snowshoe hadn't typically gone past first place. It was usually just the trophy and then the hoodies for first place. But we want people to get involved and want to know that they have an opportunity to win a prize when they're out

there. So we went ahead and went to the top three and did runner-up rings and championship rings for the top three teams. And then Ferrandi provides us with hoodies to give out to the championship teams as well. It's just, you know, it says Ferrandi champ, snowshoe champs 2024 on them. And then the championship rings just said they were a champ, you know, says ferrandi champ snowshoe champs 2024 on them and then the championship rings just said they were champ you know championship for that particular tournament you may already know this but the tournament is basically a fundraiser for greater anchorage for the municipality any of our proceeds are donated to ferrandi and the greater anchorage to use as part of the budget for the ferrandi event moving forward so, we're essentially just out there running the tournament

as a fun event. The Rondi royalty comes by and presents awards every year, which is super fun. So it's really a partnership between us and the municipality and we're just raising money for the cause here for Rondi. What are the biggest draws at for Rondi? How does snowshoe softball compare? Is that sort of a niche interest or what are the biggest participation events every year? Yeah, I would definitely say snowshoe softball is a niche sport in terms of, you know, a lot of folks just are either not softball players or baseball players or maybe not super athletically inclined. but it is a huge event every year. One of my favorite parts of the Ferrandi event is they do an outhouse race, it's called.

So everybody builds their own outhouse, and they take them down to Fifth Avenue downtown, and you put it on skis or some kind of slides, and the whole team will push the outhouse down Fifth Avenue, and they do a huge race, and there'll be 100 outhouses out there on Fifth Ave downtown. And it's just a mass exodus of people running and pushing their outhouses. They'll bump into each other and collapse them, and sometimes they'll fall over, and people are trying to run their outhouse over the top of somebody else's. It's a hoot. So, yeah, it's a super fun event.

It's really just a goofy event. It's grown over the years from being initially just an opportunity for trappers to sell their wares to now just a fun carnival with tons of goofy events. There's some phenomenal ice sculptors that come up here, too, and do pieces for the event. And you can go down by the river, Ship Creek, which is right by downtown. And there's a whole area set up with all these beautiful ice sculptures. So it's just a fun community event. Now there's lots of different things you can get involved with as part of it. And Snowshoe Softball usually has a good turnout every year. I would say we probably have somewhere between 150 and 250 players that

participate, which is pretty phenomenal. Not a lot of people are brave enough to get out there on the snowshoes and dig through the snow looking for softballs. Yeah. Yeah. The outhouse race, that sounds like only an Alaska style event. I know they do snowshoes, softball and baseball in Wisconsin and Idaho and Washington and even Pennsylvania, other places. But I don't know if they do the outhouse build and race. Maybe that is unique to Ferrandi. But are there any other strategic, tactical implications of snowshoe softball that we're not considering as non-snowshoe softball players? Like, I assume that the players use regulation gloves, but can you use your snowshoe to trap a ball or stop it and pick it up?

Like, is there any other wrinkle to this that we have not discussed? You know, I've never seen that. There's nothing in the rules that wouldn't prevent it, I guess. As long as it's still attached to your body, I guess it would probably be more beneficial to a pitcher or something if a ball guy hit back up the middle to knock it down but yeah for the most part everybody uses you know the same tactics they use in a in a normal uh softball situation they just uh they do it a little slower and a little clumsier right yeah i assume this is this is slow pitch right it is yeah yeah okay yeah fast pitch might be an even greater challenge because for the most part we use usa softball

slow pitch rules and we did have our state commissioner out and uh vice president of usa softball i believe he's also vice president and then our umpire in charge of Alaska is also the regional UIC for Idaho and Washington and Oregon. He came out and umpired some games. So some of the guys that are big into the softball, USA softball here in Alaska, took the time to go out and volunteer their time to umpire too. So that was kind of cool to see. Do you ever have a detachment of a snowshoe mid-game all the time so yeah all the time if it comes off mid-play it's not a stoppage or anything you just

have to get it back on somehow yeah so it basically becomes a you know at that time there's a time i was called the runner has to go to the previous base unless they're going to first and if they're on their way to first they have to get to the base. So even if their shoe comes off, they have to make it there. If it comes off after first base, they have to return to the previous base. So that's why, I mean, there's a lot of tactics to keep the shoes on. This weekend I saw, you know, people who had cut up old inner tubes and wrapped them and tied them up around their shoes. I've seen zip ties. I saw tie who had cut up old inner tubes and tied them up around their shoes.

I've seen zip ties. I saw tie-down straps. I've seen bungee cords. I saw duct tape this year. So you see everything anybody can think of to get them on there. They've got them on there. They don't want them coming off. Do the teams get a chance to practice with the provided snowshoes in advance,

or are they just seeing them for the first time when they get to the field for the game? They see them for the first time when they get to the field, and everybody has to get there early to get them put on before their game starts. That's great. The Fernrande group bring snowshoes down the night before typically and lock them up in a dugout, and we show up in the morning, unlock the dugout, and everybody wanders in and tries to find a good pair because there's some that are pretty rough and there's some that are decent. So, so yeah, get, get there early if you want a good pair.

We do have people showing up hours before their game, trying to find some solid snowshoes and good luck getting them off their feet the rest of the day to find a good pair. So. Oh yeah. And what is typical snowshoe softball attire other than the snowshoes? Are we talking snowsuits or what? Well, yeah, there's, I mean, another thing, too. They're all over the place. We have people in full snow bunny suits out there so they don't freeze.

We had teams that dressed up in pajamas this year, a team that dressed up in pajamas. We had a team that dressed up like a basketball team this year. I don't know. This is kind of a lot of just kind of all over the board, all over the board with, with how people dress, you know, when you run it around out there, you stay pretty warm. So you don't really have to dress up too warm. It's a, it's the cool down session afterwards. You probably need to throw some stuff back on, but you know, for the most part, you know, people are all over the place. We don't have any direct rules as to what they need to wear out there. You know, we don't require uniforms or numbers or anything like that. So come as you are.

If you want to stay warm, bundle up. If you want to have fun, dress up in some gears and a tutu or some pajamas and go get it. Well, it sounds like a ton of fun. And this is a case where due to our lack of experience, I don't know that I'm asking the right questions. So if there's anything we have not discussed about snowshoe softball or about Ferrandi in general or Anchorage sports that either of you cares to mention here,

the floor is yours before we wrap up. But if we've hit it all, then I guess we can call it. The only thing I'll say is we always welcome people from out of state that want to participate. If they want to get involved with Ferrandi, you can reach out to the Anchorage Sports Association and we can help you get signed up. We also run a lot of slow pitch tournaments throughout the summer. So if anybody's ever interested in coming to visit, give us a ring and we'll get you registered for a tournament and you can come up and play some softball. All right. That's a compelling pitch. I will link to the website on our show page. And if

Meg or I ever happens to be up in Alaska at the right time of year, then we got to strap on the snowshoes and try it ourselves. All right. Well, Ben and Robert, thanks so much for coming on. This was fun. Thank you, guys. Thank you, guys. Yeah. And if you ever do make it up, definitely give us a shout. We'd be happy to take you out fishing and play a little softball or do whatever. We will let you know. Okay. How do you segue from snowshoe softball? Well, you take one more quick break,

and then you proceed to my segment with two incredibly comparable players, former Major League catchers Ryan LaVarnway and Tim Federovich. It's effectively wild With an N-line bike In back rally Well, we're joined now by two Major League veterans whose careers have looked a lot alike. Their similarities are the basis of this segment, so I wasn't sure which one to introduce first. I guess I'll go alphabetically. Tim Federovich played for the Dodgers, Cubs,

Giants, Astros, Reds, and Rangers during his eight-year big league career. He's the author of The Modern Day Catcher, Embracing Innovation for Excellence on the Field, and he's starting his first season as the manager of the Tigers' AAA affiliate, the Toledo Mudhens. Hello, Tim. Yep, happy to be here. Ryan LaVarnway has a slightly longer list of teams. He played for the Red Sox, Orioles, Braves, A's, Pirates, Reds, Marlins, and Cleveland during his 10-year career. He's the author of Baseball and Belonging and the host of the podcast Finding the Way with Ryan LaVarnway. And we talked about Cody Bellinger earlier in this episode, but let's not neglect another recent acquisition by the Cubs. Ryan is starting his first season as the Cubs minor league roving catching coach. Welcome, Ryan.

Hey, they're happy to be here. Now, I know I'm not the only one to notice that your careers had a lot in common, because when I Googled you guys together, the first result was a 2014 blog post at Think Blue LA headlined, Is Ryan LaVarnway a Tim Federovich clone? To be fair, we could also ask whether Tim Federovich is a Ryan LaVarnway clone. And I know you don't look the same and you're not from the same states and you didn't go to the same schools. You aren't actually identical. But let's see if I can list the similarities without creeping both of you out. Here we go. You were born two days apart. You were both catchers, both batted and threw right-handed, were drafted in back-to-back rounds by the Red Sox, debuted with the same minor league team, the Lowell Spinners, in 2008, ultimately played for five

of the same minor league teams. You both made the majors in 2011. You played almost the same number of major league games, played in the 2020 Olympics, wore number 50 in your last big league stints. That's sort of a stretch, but I've thrown it in there. And since you both stopped playing, you've both been catching coaches and dads and authors of books that were published last year. Now Ryan is coaching for a team Tim played for and Tim is managing for a team Ryan played for. How did I do? Did I leave out anything else? Any secret similarities there? That was pretty impressive. I didn't even realize some of those similarities. That's cool. The only thing I think you missed is that we used to play

cards as partners. Oh, what game? Spades you missed is that we used to play cards as partners. Oh, what game? Spades. Okay. And we used to play chess against each other. Oh, all right. I'm uncovering new similarities here. This was not in the public record, but now it is.

So has this often been brought up to you? Have you guys been very conscious of the fact that you followed some similar paths in the games or had some of the same experiences? Ryan, is this something that people have been making this comp to you before, or is this sort of out of the blue for you? No, for me, it was, I got drafted as the catcher that could definitely hit. And we had to see if he was going to catch enough to make the big leagues. Definitely hit, and we had to see if he was going to catch enough to make the big leagues. And Tim was the catcher that was just a defensive whiz, and if he hit at all, he was going to be an absolute stud. So for me, on the catching side, I was always trying to play up to him as a friendly teammate, but also competition, right? And just trying to stand out in any way that I could. but also competition, right?

And just trying to stand out in any way that I could. Yeah. And Tim, have people been calling you a Ryan LaVarnway clone or vice versa before other than that one blog post? I think I do remember that blog that was written by Think Blue. But I didn't really think about it until, I mean, we both played against each other a lot. We played with each other when we first started out. You know, Ryan was spot on with those comparisons, him kind of being the hitter, me being the catcher. And we're kind of both looking up to each other in a different aspect of the game.

And I don't know. I mean, just hearing you rattle all that off. I mean, it's pretty cool. We both had some amazing, amazing careers. And yeah, it was fun watching Ryan on the other side. Do you remember the first moment you met or were introduced to each other? I don't know if either of you remembers or if you have the same memory, but if either of you does speak up. Yeah, Ryan, you might have a better memory than me. I know at some point in Lowell. I just don't remember where or when. I don't remember when I met Tim in particular, but what I remember, my first day in Lowell,

I walked in because I had surgery on my wrist six days before the draft. So I wasn't physically able to play until August of that summer. Tim had been there earlier, certainly, than me. When I walked in the room, the team and Lowell had been rained out that day. And someone had maybe showered before they officially called the game. So when I walked into the locker room, the manager, Gary DeSarcina, was ripping the team a new one. And I walk in the door like, hi. Yeah, I do remember that.

I do remember that. That was probably the first time that we met, hi. Yeah, I do remember that. I do remember that. That was probably the first time that we met, honestly. What was he so angry about? Just being unprofessional and showering and trying to go home early when the game wasn't officially called yet. As you said, you were rivals to some extent. I mean, you're teammates, but also kind of competitors for playing time and to get call-ups and prospect rankings and everything. So what was the relationship like at that time? I mean, were you friendly or was there sort of unavoidable tension there? Because you know that success for one of you comes at the other's expense. Ryan, do you recall? I recall that our first full year together in low-A Greenville, South Carolina,

Tim caught the majority of the games, and I DH'd a lot. And there was a point maybe 60 to 75 games into the season where I approached our manager, Kevin Bowles, and I was like, listen, Tim's great, but I want to not be here just And I was like, listen, you know, Tim's great, but I, I want to not be here just to keep him healthy basically. Cause I felt like I had become his backup really quickly. Yeah. And Bowles, he had the hard conversation with me at the time. And I'm so grateful he was willing to do this is he said, Tim's better than you. Like you're not good enough to catch five

days a week because if you do, you'll get exposed. And I was so grateful that he had that brutal honesty with me. And I was also grateful that Tim soon got called up to HiA to create more playing time for me. As much as you want to maybe dislike the guy that is your direct competition, Tim is such a good person and he's such a likable guy that, you know, we were always friendly competitors and teammates. And like we said, we played cards together. We played chess against each other. We were together all the time so that it was a friendly competition.

And it ended up working out that we both made the big leagues the same year. And that's what they always say will happen, even if you can't see how it's possible. Yeah. And Tim, from your perspective, are you feeling some pressure when Ryan shows up and now you have a rival for playing time, or did you think that would all work out one way or another? Yeah. I mean, I think what the Red Sox did really good was they had staff that was ready to help young players. You know, when we first started in Lowell, it was Desar leading the team, you know, a long big league career, teaching us the ins and outs, how to be a pro, similar to how he

wore us out after that one instance. And then obviously Bolzy. Bolzy was great for us. Just, and I know Ryan can probably attest to this, but that conversation that he had with Ryan probably pushed him even harder than he ever thought could. And that's why he was able to improve on his defense and have the length of the career that he did could. And that's why he was able to improve on his defense and have the length of the career that he did have. And Ryan was spot on and right back at you, right? Like such a great guy and so easy to get along with. Like it was, it was definitely a friendly competition and I don't know, it was really cool to see us both succeed. Yeah. And I could imagine that it would be really easy to take that the wrong way, not to use it as motivation, but either to get down about it or to feel resentful or to feel like, oh, they don't see my true value.

Because, you know, you're what, a 20 year old kid at that point, and you've probably always been the best player, best catcher around in local leagues, et cetera. And then suddenly you're told that this other guy's better than you. So what's the key to using that kind of constructively instead of just lashing out or, or feeling down about it? No, I mean, it was true. It was true. I was a terrible catcher when I first got drafted. Um, so him being honest with me was what I needed. And he took the next step also of, if you want to not be terrible at catching anymore, let's work on it. And the fact that he was willing to take the next step and he worked with me really one on one almost every single day in the heat, no matter where we were. And I grew a lot as a player physically that summer and also, you know, emotionally.

You know, I was going to ask since you guys were one time rivals, if you could share one thing that you each admired about the other or envied about the other or tried to emulate about the other. As you said, I guess one of you was seen as defense first, one of you is offense first. So maybe that's an easy answer. But, you know, Tim, when you followed Ryan's career and saw him up close, what was it about his game or his approach to the game that you really respected? Honestly, probably his will, his will to get better because from the point that I left

him, when I got traded out double-A, we were playing together on the Seadogs team and I ended up getting called up that year. And then seeing the improvements that he made just in that little bit of time and then the years progressing, you can tell that Ry took it upon himself to make himself better. And if there's any weakness in his game, he was going to get better at it. And it's a testament to him, it's a testament to his will and the competitor inside of him to just do everything he could

to make sure that he succeeds. And I don't know, that was just, that was great to see. And Ryan, as you were looking at Tim and his defensive skills at the time, what did you try to pick up from him, if anything? Well, I was always impressed by Tim's throwing. He was so fast. But beyond that, again, I talked about Tim as a person. i remember a conversation and tim you gotta i bet you don't even remember this because it was probably so unimportant to you i was supposed to be the catcher that hit and early on in greenville i was slumping and you were raking you were killing it and we went to like walmart or something or Subway. We were somewhere away from the field and you made an offhand comment about your hitting and you gave me some advice about my hips or my barrel.

I don't remember what it was, but I remember feeling like this guy's so generous to try to help me when like, if I make it, he doesn't. And if he makes it, I don't. And I just remember thinking about your generosity that you showed more than anything. Yeah, no, he doesn't. And if he makes it, I don't. And I just remember thinking about your generosity that you showed more than anything. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I actually do remember that. And I mean, that's, I guess it was how I was raised. You know, even though you have this competition, you just, you always want to give back as much as you can. I've been there. I ended up getting called up to the high eight that same season and went to like a two for 50 slump, you know, so it goes both ways. And there's always teammates that were next to me willing to help.

So I tried always be that teammate when somebody's looking for it. You guys didn't get to make your major league debuts together because, Tim, you got traded in the Eric Bedard deal at the 2011 deadline. And by then, Ryan, I mean, you were raking, you were hitting in AA and AAA. And I don't know if there was a perception that this organization isn't big enough for the both of you or, you know, only one can stay, the other's got to go or whether Ryan making strides offensively made Tim more expendable from the Red Sox perspective. Obviously, it worked out well for both of you anyway. You both ended up making the majors that season. But was there a perception that you couldn't both make it there, that you kind of had to branch out in order to

both make it to the big leagues? Never, never once for me personally. And at that point, you know, I think Tim and I weren't really thinking about each other. In 2011, I was worried about what I was doing, solely what I was doing, because ahead of us was David Ortiz and Jason Baratek. So it didn't really matter what we did other than just trying to take care of business because you had two Hall of Famers, or at least Red Sox Hall of Famers, in our path. So we were just trying to play for where we were, at least Red Sox Hall of Famers in our path. So we were just trying to play for where we were, at least in my head. And Tim, what did you think when you got traded? Did you think, oh, this is a path to more playing time potentially for me? Or were you sorry to relocate at that point? Yeah, I was very excited at that point. You know, every season as a minor

leaguer, you're excited about the trade deadline. Is this the year? You never know if it's going to happen. But I just take it back to the staff that the Red Sox surrounded us with. They always kept the old adage of there's 29 other teams out there. It really doesn't matter. Just go out there and work on your game and get better each day, and it'll work out. And this was a testament to that for both of us.

You know, he got called up as a Red Sox and I got called up as a Dodger and we both ended up having great careers when we were both in the same spot, kind of playing equally and both succeeding. So since you started out together, do you kind of keep tabs on each other throughout your career? You know, as each of you bounced around, went to different teams, were you kind of tracking where the other one was or texting from time to time, staying in touch? Yeah, I mean, I don't know if Ryan was, but I was definitely tracking him. I mean, it's just, you know, we built that friendship and the friendly competition that we had. It's always good to check up on that. And I wasn't very good at keeping up with ex-teammates. I wish I would have been better, but you know, it was just, it was just cool to have somebody that,

you know, we were drafted together, played together for a few years and then we're branching off on our own separate careers. And, and it's just cool to watch from the outside. Yeah. Ryan, were you aware of where Tim was? No, it's impossible to keep track of this guy. But you hear it through the grapevine, like, oh, Fed just got called up again, right? Like, oh, Fed's with this other team now. And it's like that with everyone. I think over the course of my career, and, you know, if this is fan graphs, you guys might have way better information. I think I had over a thousand teammates as a professional baseball player. Yeah, that makes sense.

So, I mean, it's impossible to keep up with everyone. But the guys that you came up with, that you grew up in the game with, like Tim and Peter Hissey and Madison Jungener and Stephen Fyfe, Casey, these guys, you grew up together is what it feels like. So seeing them be successful, Rizzo, who we came up with, that's really cool. But not necessarily sending each other birthday texts on your mutual birthday week. Yeah, both of those, our birthdays are during the season. So that's a tough time. But yeah, that is actually something that I forgot when you mentioned it, that we were that close to each other in birthdays. So you each had, I guess, what you could call a journeyman career,

right? I mean, you were well-traveled, you played for a ton of organizations and you were up and down and really persistent and stuck it out and kept making it back to the majors. And I wonder, you know, if, if you could have known exactly how your career would work out. I mean, both of you guys were, were prospects to prospects to some extent, you know, not like number one, but, you know, you had some high expectations when you're coming up through the system. I guess at that time, if someone had shown you the path that your career would take, whether you would have been happy, whether you would have been disappointed in some respects, whether it was everything you hoped and imagined, whether there were things that you would have wanted to go

differently? I mean, I think initially when you start out and especially when you get drafted and you start your career, you always want to be that starter, that everyday guy, the guy that's making all the money in the world, you know, and that's at least your goal, you know, but as you go and as you see the length of our careers and the amount of people that we met and I don't know about you, right. But playing for all these different teams, like you had to kind of learn on the fly. You got to learn how to command his pitching staff on the fly and meet new people and blend in from the start. You know, it's, it's, it's very good quality to learn. Um, as you go out into the real world, just the connections and the network that you build. So, I mean, to that point, it wasn't great that we never got to be the starting big league catchers

for the same team for 10 straight years. But at the other end of it, we kind of set ourselves up better for the life after baseball because of the network and the amount of people and the way that we had to build relationships on the fly. It kind of makes it perfect for us to kind of move on past. So what I, what I like to joke about is that if I had played better at the big league level, I'd have less uniforms and more service time because, you know, I got called up 26 times over the course of 10 big league seasons. But then 26 times, they were okay with letting me go. So it speaks to a very specific threshold of ability and performance. But I think it also speaks to being a good teammate, being a good clubhouse guy.

Because there was a number of teams the last few years that I played that when they called me to ask if I wanted to sign, you know, we have a third catcher opportunity. We have maybe a fourth catcher opportunity starting the year. Oftentimes they would mention, yeah, we called around and everybody has good things to say about you. Like that's more important. Almost once you reach a certain threshold of experience. They know what they're getting on the field. They want to know what they're getting off the field. I don't know if you guys have had a chance to read Eric Kratz's book, The Tao of the Backup Catcher.

I'm reading it right now, and it is tremendous. He did an amazing job with this book. tremendous. He did an amazing job with this book. And it's really dives into like the, that intangible, that immeasurable, you know, clubhouse guy mentality that the backup catcher has to have, because you're not the guy that they're relying on for a hundred RBIs in a year. You're not the guy that's going to catch 120 games. You have to find a way to provide value to the team and the morale and the vibes really really, for 100 games that you're not playing in. Yeah. And I guess it was, you know, Ryan, you had 14 minor league seasons. Tim had 13 minor league seasons.

Your career minor league OPSs were 10 points apart. So, again, pretty, pretty uncanny. But, Ryan, we actually we do a segment on the show called The Stat Blast where we do some sort of statistical deep dive. It's fan graphs, as you said. And many episodes ago, episode 1743, we did one that turned out to be about you. And I think you'll take it as a compliment, which is kind of how it was intended. So you guys, as I said, ended up with almost exactly the same number of major league games, 163 for Tim, 165 for Ryan. And when you came up for Cleveland in your last

big league season, 2021, Ryan, you got to 162 games played that season. And we determined that you had the most seasons ever to get to 162 games. So it took you 10 years, right? 10 big league seasons to get to your 162nd game, a full schedule. And no one else had ever done that, had gotten to game 162 in that many years. Now, I'm sure you would have liked to get there sooner and to have more games. But I do think that says something about you, that you stuck it out and you kept coming back for more and you eventually got there and you had that many years in the game, right? So, I mean, for me personally, I think I would wear that as a badge of honor to some extent, but I wonder how you feel about it. So funny. So for me, I think early on in my career, before I fully understood

what it meant to be a journeyman, it sounded like a dirty word to me, something that I never wanted to be. But as I became one, I understood about the clubhouse guy part of it, the leadership part of it, the experience. You have to have a certain minimum threshold of ability, the part of it. So I love that. I think that's great. Do I wish they had given me more at-bats and I had hit 100 homers in the big leagues? Yeah, of course. Also, I love these very, very specific, fringy records. So I'm going to use that going forward. out of or a favorite memory from the game? And is there a particular regret that you have about any aspect of your career? And maybe you can give me one of each, if anything comes to mind. Tim, you want to lead off? The good, I don't know. I mean, that first time you come through for your team in the big leagues is always an exciting one. We both played for storied franchises to

start our major league careers and getting that first big hit in Dodger Stadium to clear the bases and score the, like, get the go-ahead run across the plate was pretty exciting. Just to hear the crowd, I mean, it was electric. And a high fly ball to left field and deep back. It's off the wall. One run scored. Two runs scored. Here's the third run to score. And the Dodgers lead the game

5-3 on a double by Petter Roedde. So that's definitely probably the first, the good memory. The bad would be my 2015 season where I had two knee surgeries and had them missed the whole year. You know, I was traded from the Dodgers to the Padres, you know, had a clear path to kind of be the starter that year and blew out in spring training. And it was a pretty bad tear to my meniscus and missed almost the whole year trying to recover from that. And I think that definitely takes the top spot on the bad.

Yeah. Ryan, how are your knees doing? Because that's kind of an occupational hazard when it comes to catchers and maybe particularly tall catchers. And that's one way you guys are different. Ryan, you got several inches on Tim. So 6'3", 239, at least your listed dimensions. That's pretty big for a catcher. So how are your knees holding up? Yeah, my knees have always been okay,

thankfully. I have some restrictions on my ankles and my hips, but that's another story. I'll start with a bad memory, I guess, so I can finish on a positive. Going into the 2012 season, I had one minor league player of the year in some variety three years in a row with the Red Sox. And we had a managerial change and a GM change. So all the people that had seen me be successful, all the people that had brought me up, drafted me, they were all gone. And I was told on the last day of spring training that if the season was 50 games long and every game mattered, I would be our starting catcher on opening day. But since my contract had options, the season's 162, they wanted to keep both of us. I had to go back to the minor leagues.

That was a hard pill to swallow for me. Because you hope that it's the best players are in the big leagues, right? That's what you're told your whole life is, be the best and you'll be rewarded Yeah. Yeah. I got released from AAA with the Yankees. And then I was in the big leagues with the Reds the next day and broke a franchise record, had the game of my life. So to go from a low to a high like that in such a short time, that was pretty cool. Ryan LaVarnway in his first start in over two years in the big leagues. An RBI double, a three-run home run. And he puts a charge into this one straight away. Center field.

Are you kidding me. Halfway up the batter's eye for the Barnard way he has knocked in six of the nine Cincinnati runs in this game. It is indeed a career night for this young man. That's just amazing. Just activated yesterday.

LaVar, and why it was, it was released by the Yankees minor league team in Scranton-Wilkes-Barre the day before that. That's another similarity. I think you were both with the 2019 Columbus Clippers, but not at the same time, right? You didn't overlap, but they had both of you on that team at different times. Was there one particular catcher you each learned from most at the major league level, not necessarily a coach coming up, but kind of a catching mentor when you were young and getting started? I know, Ryan, I mean, Veritech was your favorite player growing up, right? And then you're playing with him when you get called up. So was he the guy?

Yeah, I mean, Veritech was so, first of all, intelligent and cerebral and he was a leader by example, more so than vocally. And I really tried to be like him for a long time until I realized that I am not like him. So I had to find my own leadership style and that took a lot of maturity to understand. But between him and I'd say AJ Pruszynski did a lot for me because AJ is very, very different than Jason in that AJ is in your face and he's going to tell you how he feels, whether you like it or not. And I found that to be valuable in its own way. And, you know, AJ was great for me. And, you know, AJ was great for me. And Tim, I guess you had an AJ in your life also because AJ Ellis was on the Dodgers when you got called up. Was he or anyone else a particular catching influence on you? AJ was definitely an influence, especially to start when he was kind of up and down for a while with the Dodgers.

Never really hit. He was kind of just the defensive catcher that was good with the pitchers. He was kind of just the defensive catcher that was good with the pitchers. And he kind of really helped me game plan and teach me his process, the process that I believe he learned from Ausmus when he was first coming up. Between him and Rick Honeycutt, going through the scouting reports and learning that system was definitely valuable going forward. But I would say as far as like a true veteran mentor that I played with would be David Ross in 2016. I got to play with Rossi for about three months of the 2016 season.

And just learning from him, you talk about a teammate. I mean, he wrote a book called Teammate, and it is spot on with how he acts. I mean, he was a great guy in the clubhouse. He knows when to get on the guys. I mean, he was the perfect leader for that team for that year with the young guys on the team with KB and Javi and Riz. You know, like he really knew how to like keep them relaxed, but also get on them if they if they mess up. So he's probably definitely takes the takes the win right there. So I wanted to ask you about the evolution of the catching position and

catching technique. And Tim, you wrote the book about it or wrote a book on it at least. And it has changed so rapidly since you guys started out, even just in the couple of years since you stopped playing, right? I mean, you have the emphasis on framing that comes in during your career. Now you have rules changes that make throwing more important. Again, you have the emphasis on framing that comes in during your career. Now you have rules changes that make throwing more important. Again, you have the change to the one knee down catching stance. We're kind of catching nerds here. So feel free to get into it as much as you want. But Ryan, you're a current catching coach.

And Tim, you were the Tigers big league catching coach last year. So how different is what you're teaching now to what you were taught? Tim, you want to start? Yeah, it has definitely changed. And that kind of led me to start that book because when I got the catching coach job, obviously I knew how I was trained and how I went about business, but I wanted to kind of see what other information was out there. Just like, what are the, what have these kids learned? What, what do they know? Um, and I, it was really hard to find anything that was up to date on everything that has happened in the cat, the catching position. So that's where I was like, well, you know what? I'll start putting my thoughts together. I never

thought I would actually write a book out of it, but by the time I put all my thoughts down on all the different areas of catching, it was starting to form like a book. I didn't want it to be super in-depth to where a high school kid couldn't read it. I wanted it to be just a simple guide just to kind of catch everybody up on what has changed in the game, you know, from the framing numbers that came in. I think I first learned about them in 2016 and I heard other teams were teaching even before that. And then it kind of turned into getting on a knee. And then, you know, for me, when I was playing, especially when everyone's starting on a knee, like coming up, we always thought it was lazy. And then you go down on a knee to try to get

better leverage on the low pitch. And then you just feel like you won't be able to block, you know? So then there's the evolution of blocking where the best blockers in the game are now just picking more than anything. You know, you have, you have the hands, you have the hand-eye coordination to be able to just simply pick the balls that are outside your body, rather than trying to kick yourself six to 12 inches outside into the other batter's box to block the ball. You know, so that's another thing that has changed. You know, I was just block at all costs for majority of my career and now it's receive at all costs. And if you have to just pick it, you know, so it has changed so much. And then learning how to throw from a knee, you know,

there's a bunch of different variations now and it kind of just depends on the flexibility of the catcher that you're working with. And then now they're trying to take away a little bit of the throwing leverage that we had with the pitch clock and the disengagements. And I mean, it's, it really has evolved and Ryan and I both lived right through it and we both had to change our games to appease it. So, I mean, it was pretty cool that we kind of lived through that evolution of the catcher. Yeah, it's a continuing education in catching because, Ryan, you debuted 2011. It's a very different position than it was when you finished up in 2021. So, what have you made of all the changes at the position?

2021. So what have you made of all the changes at the position? Yeah, I wish I would have understood that it was evolving and been a earlier adapter because I was so bad at catching when I did get drafted and I put such a focus on the blocking and then the throwing and then receiving was almost an afterthought for me because it wasn't measured and it wasn't important as I was learning the position. And then as I was learning it that way, it changed on me. And I was late to the game. It ended up being fine. But as Tim is saying, the importance and the skill set, the priorities have totally flipped on their heads. And I think once we go to an automated ball strike system, which I think is inevitable

at some point, it'll flip on its head again because receiving will no longer be important other than presenting a good pitch, building confidence in the pitcher and target and so on. But a strike will be a strike and a ball will be a ball regardless of how you catch it. Then we'll get back into blocking and throwing as the main priorities. Yeah, I want to end there. I'll ask you guys about that in a second. I did want to ask Ryan, since you were so bad at catching your words, not mine. Does that help you then as a coach now if you're working with younger kids and they have a lot of work to do? Does that give you the credibility? Are you coming in and saying, I was very bad at this and I got better and here's how I did it? saying, I was very bad at this and I got better and here's how I did it. I think it helps me understand and be empathetic. And I also think the fact that I learned it as an adult more recently than having good habits as a kid, I remember how it felt to learn it. And with my physical range of motion limitations in my hips and ankles, I had to learn how to do it specific

to my body. And that was a little bit different than how Tim's hips and ankles and knees work. So if anything, my hope would be that I can help kids and players learn what will work for them specifically and be more open to a little bit of personalization. Were you so raw as a catcher initially just because you had had less experience? I know you played catcher in Little League, but you played some outfields at Yale. Did you just not have as many reps back there, or was it just not where you wanted to play

or not something you focused on the defense? No, I actually always loved catching. I never caught one game on the varsity team in high school because we had somebody that was better than me in my grade. And then when I went to college as an outfielder, I played my first year. And as an outfielder before I switched back, I really just didn't have catching coaching growing up. catching coaching growing up. That's such a specific position and it's changed so much that most little league coaches, most high school coaches, and even college coaches never played the position at a high level. So they don't know how to coach it. And it's really the same stuff that their granddad or their dad taught them who also never played catcher at a high level.

And that's what I found. You know, I live in Colorado when I'm not playing or coaching. There's nobody that coaches it. Maybe we can close then by looking at the future of the position. Tim, you just wrote the book and you might have to rewrite it, right? I guess you accounted for this in there too, but I'm hoping personally that we get some sort of challenge system at least that would preserve some of these traditional techniques and receiving skills. But which way do you think the position is going and what does catching look like in a post-Robo-Umps, ABS baseball world? Yeah, I think a challenge system is really the only way you can get everyone to agree. And I think it makes it more exciting for the fans. I know you're starting to get mixed reviews. My first year as a manager

in 2022, we had the automated zone for basically half the season. In the last half, we had the challenge system. And a lot of the guys preferred the challenge system. But from hearing the reviews last year from the coaches and the players and the pitchers, they preferred the automated zone, um, over the challenge system. So it is starting to kind of tip a little bit, but I still believe that the challenge system is the best way to go, which would still allow for catchers, especially the receiving, the better receiving catchers to stay in the game, just because you're still going to because you're going to have to put the pressure on the hitter

to challenge the pitch. And they've made it so quick with the challenge system and the visuals on the scoreboard. It's pretty exciting. I mean, we had an incident in Tacoma that we had a ball four overturned into a strike three for the third out of the inning, and the crowd went wild. So it was really cool to see. They did a strike three for the third out of the inning and the crowd went wild you know so it's just it was really cool to see they did a great job with the visuals and I think it would

be more exciting for the fan base and I think at the end of the day that's what they're trying to get and Tim I mean some of the kids you'll be working with this year it is possible if not likely that by the time they get to the majors, if they do, they will be in that world, right? Where there's either full robo-umps or some sort of challenge system. And I guess that really affects player development because what skills do you emphasize? What do you focus on? What drills do you do? You know, if it's possible that you're spending all your time working on receiving and framing, and then a couple of years from now, it's conceivable, at least, that that might not matter at all. I hope that's not the case.

But how do you think that's affecting instruction? You know, I mean, it just comes down to the player. You know, if he wants to get better, obviously right now it's not going to happen this year. So the guys that I'm going to be managing that get called up to Detroit, they're going to have to still be able to go up there and receive. So my message to them is just treat it like there is no RoboOp. Give it your best effort. Especially, you can almost give it more of an effort with no one on base because there's no ramifications if you miss it.

You could really try to rip it to the zone because no matter what, you're not going to miss a ball or miss a strike because you're trying to catch it better. You know, I think that's always a fear is like you don't want to try to move too fast and then all of a sudden miss the ball. But I mean, right now, if it's a strike, they're going to call it a strike just because it is the RoboLump. So I think it's on the guy and his will to get better and just recognizing that it's

still in the game right now. And until it comes out of the game, we need to still keep training for it. Let me ask one more thing that each of you could weigh in on. International competition. Now, Ryan, you've been heavily involved with the WBC and you've both been in the Olympics. And I think everyone kind of caught WBC fever last year, right? That was sort of the breakout year for the World Baseball Classic. And that seems like a real growth area for baseball.

There's so much global interest in the game and it seems like players are really taking international competition seriously. So I wonder how that evolved over the course of your careers, the caliber of players who were recruited for those teams, how seriously they took it, how it compares to minor league play or major league play. What was your experience, Tim? Yeah, I thought it was great. I mean, we're having the Olympics in the U.S. in 2028. I really hope

they let the big league players play because it's still kind it's still kind of, uh, hits deep. Just thinking that Japan took a two week break just to beat our triple a all-star team. You know, I think it's, we need to put the best team on the field and it'd be great if MLB comes out and allows those players to play. I know there's a lot of hoops to hoops to get through, but, um, I think it'd be really exciting because it was, it was a great experience. great experience. It's going to take away the opportunity for players like myself and Ryan that are not on the 40-man. And getting that opportunity was great. I unfortunately didn't really get to play. I was there as a backup.

Ryan got to play, which was probably a lot more fun. But it was still a really cool experience to get out there and represent your country, kind of be there on the bench for the guys as a mentor. What about you, Ryan? So I've played in two WBCs, the Olympics and the European Championships. I played in the Australian League, played in Venezuela, played in Dominican Republic. The passion that these other countries have for the game, it's like a college football party atmosphere that you don't get in Major League Baseball unless it's the playoffs. So you're bringing this playoff World Series type atmosphere

to games in April for the WBC or March or in the case of the Olympics in July. I think it's great for baseball. It's some of my best baseball memories, and I'm all for it. I think that they should continue to grow it and continue to get other countries as interested in the game as the U.S. is,

and it's a huge opportunity to do that. Well, I'm glad I could get you guys together for a little reunion here, sort of an exit interview on your playing careers and entrance interview for your post-playing careers. And speaking of those, it seems like you guys are going in some similar directions here with minor league managing or coaching. Ryan, I know you've done some broadcast work and podcasting as well. So it seems like you're both going to be around the game for years to come and we can keep monitoring to see if you cross paths. Is that basically the direction you're going down, that you're both really interested in instruction, coaching, potentially managing? Tim, is that the future for you?

think that's the ultimate goal. You know, it's tough. I got a young family at home, you know, it's tough leaving my wife with the two kids. So that's something we're kind of working through, but it's, it's really, really fun. I love managing the guys, you know, getting out on the field, staying in the dugout. I think Ryan, I think eventually I don't want to speak for him, but I think he would be a great manager as well. And maybe that'll be one of the similarities we'll have back on this podcast one day. Right. Ryan, is that in the cards for you? Are you still dabbling in the media world or what? Yeah, we'll see. I love the game.

I feel like I have a lot to give back and baseball has given me a lot. So, you know, I have a family with a wife and young daughter also. So we'll see what the future holds. You know, I never thought I'd broadcast and then last year I loved it. So we'll see what's next.

All right. Well, the latest of many similarities, you've now both been guests on Effectively Wild, and we're happy to have had you. Ryan, good luck with the Cubs. Tim, good luck with the Tigers and everything else. Thanks, guys. Glad to be here. Thank you.

All right. That will do it for today. Thanks, as always, for listening, and thanks to all of our guests. I'm recording this at about 3 a.m. Eastern time as I'm about to post this episode. And Shohei Otani just announced that he is married. I'm in shock, but I'm not in as much shock as the Shobays who are in absolute tumult right now. Let's all just take some time to process this and we will be back to banter about it next time. Just in absolute awe that despite the intense interest in Shohei Otani's personal life, he completely concealed a relationship so serious that it resulted in marriage.

This may be his most impressive feat yet. Congrats, Shohei. Here's hoping you and your mystery spouse are very happy together. One quick follow-up from last time on episode 2129. I did a stat blast about that popular but inaccurate Greg Maddux fun fact and the rate of pitchers going to 3-0 counts. We mentioned that the most impressive pitcher in that respect, minimum 500 batters face, was actually Seth Maness. I did not recall that appropriately Seth Maness emulated Greg Maddux. Listener Jake wrote in to direct me to

a 2013 interview with Redbird Rants, where the interviewer asked Seth Maness who his favorite player growing up was, and Maness said, I grew up a big Braves fan because they were always on TBS during the summer. Watching them, I took a liking to Greg Maddox. His feel for pitches and also his ability to field his position was very impressive to me. That same year, Maness' AAA pitching coach compared Maness to Maddox because he had not just control but also command. So Maness modeled his game after Maddox, and in this respect,

he actually outdid him. Mentioned that I'd had Maness on the Ringer MLB show once to talk about the elbow surgery he had. Now someday I guess I gotta get him back on Effectively Wild to tell him about the results of that stat blast. Much like I just told Ryan LaVarnway about the results of a previous stat blast. You can help ensure that we keep stat blasting and interviewing by supporting the podcast on Patreon,

which you can do by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going.

Help us stay ad free and get themselves access to some perks. Chris, Matthew A. Riley, Jake Otsuki, Casey Jo, and Brandon Forkham. Thanks to all of you. Patreon perks include access to the Effectively Wild Discord group for patrons only, monthly bonus episodes, one of which we just released earlier this week.

I think it was a fun one. I shared a few wild takes. We answered some listener AMA questions. We had a good time. You might too if you listen. You can also get access to playoff live streams and discounts on merch and ad-free Fangraphs memberships, potential podcast appearances, signed books, so much more. Check out all the offerings at patreon.com slash effectivelywild. contact us via email. Send your questions and comments to podcast at fangraphs.com. You can join our Facebook group at

facebook.com slash group slash Effectively Wild. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and Spotify and other podcast platforms. You can follow Effectively Wild on Twitter at EWPod and you can find the Effectively Wild subreddit at r slash Effectively Wild. Thanks to Shane McKeon for his editing and

production assistance. This will be a backloaded week and we will be back to previewing soon. Next two teams up are the Phillies and the Angels. Talk to you a little later this week. Lindbergh and Beck, Riley. I want to hear about Shohei Ohtani. Or Mike Trout with three arms. Who are you with this year? Toledo. I'm managing the Toledo team. Oh, you're managing Toledo?

I am.