Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2261: Rickey Broke Records, and the Mold

Episode Date: December 24, 2024

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley discuss the career and life of Rickey Henderson, focusing on changes in public perceptions of his play and personality, how underrated he was (even though he was highly rated!), and his impact on the modern game and media, then (41:52) catch up on a flurry of transactions, including a run […]

Hello and welcome to episode 2261 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from FanGraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Meg Raleigh of FanGraphs. Hello, Meg. Hello. This is our last pre-Christmas Hanukkah Kwanzaa holiday episode. You're on the road. I am not yet, but I will be.

And so we're going to try to cram our recording in when we can this week. And I had mentioned, by the way, that we were trying to set up a series of interviews about baseball jobs that we could run this week and next to give ourselves and producer Shane a bit of a holiday break and that didn't happen. I tried, but it was kind of complicated to schedule all those interviews. A lot of people I reached out to said, oh, after Christmas, which was a very reasonable thing to say, but also didn't help us because that was why we were trying to pre-schedule those things. Also, it turns out that it's very tough to pre-tape this podcast while still continuing

to tape the usual episodes, which is why we don't usually bank a lot of stuff in advance because we're barely keeping up as it is. We're paddling as fast as we can. We're buckets of water just tipping over the side so that we can keep from sinking all the other things that we do in addition to this podcast. And so it doesn't leave a ton of time to get ahead on things, but I want to do that idea still. And hopefully even this off season, we can make it happen. And a lot of people wrote in with excellent suggestions for people with cool, perhaps unsung or under known baseball jobs that would be fun to hear from. And we will set that up sometime soon. So thanks. We're just kicking the can down the road a tad here.

We are grommet on the little train, laying the track as fast as we can. But one thing we want to do before the end of the year, which means soon, is our annual tradition of highlighting some stories that we missed about each team. I put a call out at the end of the last episode, but want to highlight that here at the top of this pod. So please get those to us this week. If you have something, if you've been sitting on some story that we did not discuss about your team, we talk about a lot of things, but

far from all the things, this is a national baseball podcast. You know, all the teams have their own podcasts. So we barely cover a fraction of what happens in baseball in any given year, even though we do cover a lot. So let us know. It could be a fun fact. It could be some heartwarming off the field story. It could be an interesting debut. We didn't discuss some weird game, whatever it is.

If you thought, oh, this would be fun for Effectively Wild to talk about, and we didn't, or you're not sure whether we did, then just email us at podcast at fancrafts.com and let us know. So we've got a few things to discuss today. Partly a flurry of pre-Christmas shopping that is happening here. The stove is pretty hot right now. But sadly, we must begin, and we want to begin, by eulogizing Ricky Henderson, who died on Friday, just a few days short of his 66th birthday, seemingly because of complications from pneumonia or asthma. And I was well aware of how old Ricky Henderson was and when his birthday was,

because we share a birthday. We're both Christmas babies. That's right. We're Christmas babies. Yeah. And that's, it's always a nice thing. If you're a baseball fan, I mentioned this in my piece, which I wrote for The Ringer about Ricky over the weekend, but you usually know who the good players born on your birthday

were. And I always knew because Ricky, that gave me bragging rights. I could top almost anyone else and their best player on their birthday, one of the best and one of the coolest. And so it was always kind of nice to think as I was celebrating my birthday, somewhere out there, Ricky was cutting his cake and blowing out his candles and getting birthday wishes too. And sadly that will no longer be true for the first time in my lifetime. So I'm very sad to see him go so young too, because I just kind of felt like for a guy who played forever, I guess I sort of felt like he'd probably live a really long time too, which is silly.

Obviously there's no correlation necessarily there, but he just, he postponed retirement for so long and would have postponed it a lot longer if teams had let him. And so it's sort of sad that he didn't have a longer post-retirement life and that we couldn't keep enjoying him. And it's a tough double whammy for A's fans to lose the A's, lose the franchise, and then lose the franchise icon. No more A's games on Ricky Henderson field and no more active Ricky Henderson, though we have the memories. Yeah. It's, you know, in moments like this, you, I don't know, I have this, um,

this editorial instinct to like, try to resist the, the easy narrative. Right. But it does feel, I don't know, like the, the two are just inextricably linked. You know, it's not as if his only tie to Oakland was the A's. Like he, he was, he was of Oakland. He was from Oakland, you know? Um, and so important to that franchise and, and to baseball writ large to so many others, I think that because, we all have sort of a dominant understanding of him

with the A's, that sort of top of mind, but because he played for so many teams, there are a lot of people who can kinda lay claim to Ricky, right, to some portion of his career, to some piece of his stolen base legacy. San Diego Surf Dogs legend, the 2005 Golden Baseball League. Yeah, I mean, it's funny when Oakland, and I'll refer to them that way for the purposes of this discussion, when the A's closed out their season series in Seattle, when they played in Seattle,

which was right after they had played their last game in Seattle when they played in Seattle, which was right after they had played their last game in the Coliseum. Ricky threw out the first pitch for one of those games and he was wearing a split Mariners A's jersey. Just one more reminder of his sort of itinerant career. Parapetetic, if you will. It's just funny to be able to say that someone whose career, big league career started, one when he was so young, which is part of what enabled the sort of long career that he had, but like, you know, he is someone who I have active memories

of playing and so did my grandfather, you know? And that's, and in different eras of my grandfather, you know, and that's, and in different eras of my life, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't watching Ricky just when he was, uh, you know, a young buck when I was a young buck, right? Uh, he remembered the glory days. So it's, it's just a fascinating legacy and you know, someone who I think because he lasted so long, people were able to sort of reckon with and recontextualize with some of their understandings of him that had been made early in his career. And I don't want to say that they were all negative, but you know, people had, people had stuff to

say about Ricky and it wasn't always positive. And then I think as time went on, people came to appreciate what they had failed to appreciate about him earlier. You know, the way that we talked about players kind of changed. And I think that, you know, as he kind of moved into the phase of his life, where he was like an ambassador of the game and present, you know, you'd like see him on the backfields in Arizona. He was around. He was one of those guys who was present long after his career was over. And I think, you know,

I don't know that we'll ever have another quite like him. I didn't expect it to hit me as hard, but like you, part of that was because I was like, well, he's just gonna live forever, you know, he might outlive all of us, you know, he's just gonna be around. So it feels very strange to contemplate an opening day without him, you know,

and that'll be what next spring is. It's just very sad and bizarre. He was famous for thinking and saying long after he had finally retired, which I guess there's some dispute about whether he actually officially retired. Clearly at some point he resigned himself to it, but he also would have resigned if anyone had offered him a contract. Up until almost his dying day, he continued to think, put me in coach. I could do that, which was part of his, his confidence, which was justified because he was so great. But yeah, he turned 28 the day I was born.

Because of that, you'd think, oh, we wouldn't really have strong memories of him because 28 that's, that's like, you know, you're coming out of your prime maybe even at that point. And no, like I remember him very clearly because he hung on so long and we didn't see his prime of course, but even his post-prime was pretty darn productive. Yeah, it wasn't bad. Yeah. 1998 where he won his record 12th stolen base title in his age 39 season, still sold 66 bags, led the majors. And then 99, he had that year with the Mets where he had 315, 423, 466 with 37 steals

in 121 games. He was 40 at that point. Yeah, he had 135 WRC plus. Yeah, it was pretty ridiculous. Even though he slowed down, he was still faster and better than most people ever were and played for 25 seasons in the majors, 30 professional seasons, four different decades. It really is pretty extraordinary. And I wrote an obit of Ricky and I'm always nervous when I get pressed into service to write an obit or sometimes volunteer. Cause it just feels like a lot of responsibility to sort of serve as the

speaker for the dead for, for an icon, essentially. And I'm always conscious of, especially cause it's usually on a deadline to some extent you're trying to get something up. And so I always feel like, well, I don't want to rush this because what a legend. And also how am I going to do justice to him or say something that hasn't been said and all these people paying tribute who actually knew him or grew up rooting for him and what is my personal connection other than the fact that we shared a birthday.

So it always makes me a little anxious and yet I'm usually glad I did it in the end because the silver lining of losing a legend like this is that you get to immerse yourself in all the lore of that legend and rewatch all the highlights and dive deep into the stats and read all the anecdotes. And I had fairly recently read Howard Bryant's Ricky Bio, which he was on the podcast to discuss a couple of years ago, episode 1876, if you want to hear Howard talking about Ricky. And so I had a grounding in him, but as I was doing that writing and research, I gained an even greater appreciation for him. Not that I didn't have a healthy one when I started, but I think you're right. He really has been appreciated even more in

retrospect and I think that's because he was such a modern figure in some respects. And I think he would have fit in better in today's game and today's media environment. And yet maybe that's partly because he played a part in creating today's game and today's media environment. You know, like he helped shape the game of today and also the way that players are perceived today. Yeah. Sometimes you're just confronted with actual greatness.

And I think that like he was perceived as brash and braggadocious at times. And then you look at it and you're like, I don't know if he bragged enough, you know? And I think that when you have such a standout tool, even someone whose career has been talked about as much as Ricky's was. And I feel so strange calling him Ricky because I didn't know the man. But he's the kind of figure where if I had met

him in person, I would have felt compelled to call him Mr. Henderson. I'm sure he would have looked at me like, what are you doing over there exactly? But- CB That's a testament to the legend. LS I know, I know. CB Yeah, when it's Ricky, when it's, yeah, when it's Ricky, when it's Reggie, when it's Willie, when you ascend to that one name level, then you've made it. Yeah.

But you just, you know, you want to, you want to genuflect when it's appropriate. But you know, I think that when you have a player like him where there is such an obvious standout tool, one that set records, you know, in kind of any way you dice up his stolen bass prowess, it is just awe-inspiring. You can lose sight of all of the other things that he was good at. He had a career 401 on bass percentage, you know, like he was so skilled in so many ways and the combination of those skills really put him in just like truly superlative territory, the way he was able to couple his ability to get on base and then steal. It was just

like amazing what he was able to do, all the runs that he scored, you know. Even for someone whose life and career is as well documented as his was, there are still times where you look at his player page and are sort of taken aback and surprised by just how impressive he was in all aspects of the game. And I hope that people sit with that as they're kind of contemplating what his game really looked like. And it's so interesting because it's like, I think because you lead with the stolen bases so often, I mean, understandably, I don't think anyone's like getting it wrong to lead with that to be clear,

but you say like, oh, he would have been a great player for the modern game. And I think that there might be folks who are like, well, the stolen base, like, but like, look, when you look at the sort of totality of his resume, the shape of his production, I think he would have been right at home in, it's not like he didn't play modern baseball.

He played it in 2003. But, you know, in today's game, and I think you're right, like part of why he feels like such a modern player is the way that he talked about himself and his willingness to acknowledge like that he was the greatest. It's not bragging, it's just an accurate reflection of his talent. And I think you're right that part of why he feels like he would have fit there is because he really did challenge a lot of people's understanding of how players ought to be talked about, how they ought to be able to talk about themselves, what their expectations of play should be. And I think that, you know, players in today's game, they owe a real debt

to him in terms of how they are able to interact with the world around them, the media fans. And I think, you know, for as much as there were at times pain points, like he was just so beloved and so appreciative of the fans who did respect and care for his game. There really was a warm exchange there in a way that feels very of today to me too. So it's just, I don't know. I don't know what you, I told Jay,

Jay's writing our tribute and not to impugn your editors, but I was like, you can take your time with it. You know, people are still going to want to read about Ricky after the holiday break and it's, you know, you want to sit with it. This one has hit me harder that we've lost a lot of really tremendous players and people in the game over the last couple of years. And I don't know, this one just feels more, it's so funny to say that as like a fan of the Seattle Mariners, a team for which he played all of like 90 games, 92 games, something like that, still managed to steal 31 bases. I mean, what a gem of a guy, but it feels very odd to wake up in a world where he's

not around. And yeah, not only because he lasted so long, but because he was so young on a relative basis, I didn't think we'd have to contemplate this one for a while. Yeah, no, it's been just six months since Willie Mays died and Willie was Ricky's idol and the reason why he wore 24 in many of his stops and stints. And when we did an episode after Willie's death and talked about, well, who's the greatest living player now. And of course it's Barry Bonds, but if you are going to do some kind of clean quote unquote, player carve out and yeah, someone who's not tied

to PEDs, then I think it was clearly Ricky. And now it's a little more up in the air. And if you were going to say position players, I'd probably say Mike Schmidt, I guess, would be the reigning holder of that title now. But it's really tough to lose Ricky so soon after that. And someone who was much more recent in terms of his career and we actually watched. And so, you know, Willie Mays was just this legend

way before we arrived on the scene, whereas Ricky, he was flesh and blood. We were actually watching him and seeing him run. And yeah, he was just an unbelievable player. There's the famous Bill James line from the New Historical Abstract about how if you could split them in two, you'd have two Hall of Famers. And it's essentially true. So his baseball reference war 111.1. If you divide that in half, he is basically six war away from half of the median non Negro leagues, Hall of Famer position player, like the average 172 non Henderson Hall of Famers who didn't play predominantly in the Negro leagues. The median is 61.8 war.

So he really is half of him is almost that. There are 72 Hall of Famers hitters, non-Negroleaguers that his half a Henderson matches or like, you know, he matches or exceeds them. So that's kind of incredible. And yes, you could say that the stolen bases you might think would lead to him being overrated because we know that stolen bases, they're valuable. Certainly if you're stealing them in vast quantities, but often they're not as valuable as you might think. And that's part of why we've seen fewer of them that teams and players have learned. There's a big cost to getting thrown out, which early in his career, he got thrown out a fair amount. He got better as time went on, obviously had the most times caught stealing also, but that

was largely just a function of how many attempts he had. But between the value that you lose by being caught and then the wear and tear and the injury risk and all the rest teams have largely decided it's just not worth it. Even if you could run like Ricky, if Ricky came along today, they probably wouldn't let him run like Ricky did. But if you just take away his stolen base value, he's still a hall of Famer. And if you just look purely at the batting runs and separate it from the running runs, this was one of the stats that kind of blew my mind in my piece.

If you look at his prime period, so say 1980, his first full season through his age, 34 season, 1993, and that's a long period. It's a long prime. He was the fifth best hitter in baseball over that period. Just hitter. If he had never stolen a single base, he had a 145 WRC plus in that span, which was bettered by only Frank Thomas, Mike Schmidt, Barry Bonds and Fred McGriff. That's it. So he was one of the best hitters in baseball. He's like 32nd all time in career batting runs alone.

And the only players who have more batting runs but are not in the hall of fame are either not yet eligible, Albert Pujols, Mike Trout, Miguel Cabrera, or excluded because of PD stuff, Bonds, Manny Ramirez, A-Rod, Sheffield. So that's it. He would have been a hall of fame hitter regardless of the base running. And that's playing in pitcher's parks for a lot of his career, Oakland, obviously. He fell just short of 300 homers, which was one goal he said that he didn't quite accomplish. He ended up at 297. Well, he hit more home runs on the road than he did at home over the course of his career. And that's largely a park effect. Also he was a backwards hitter. What did we call them? The rare natural lefty who hit righty. He was a backwards guy, just by far the best ever to do that. And he did it.

That's so much better than weird ass. Yeah, that was what I was looking for. It feels disrespectful. Yeah. And the reason he did that was just because all his friends hit righty and he thought that was just the way you hit. And so he threw left and he could have been better maybe if he had been a natural lefty and hit from the left side and had a platoon advantage. His OPS against righties was 74 points lower than his OPS against lefties and he faced righties more than twice as often as lefties.

Even with those disadvantages, he was still just absolutely a game-changing offensive player purely because he got on base and because he had power. Those things enabled the base dealing. Not only did he have speed and fantastic insights and he studied the pitchers and everything, but it's a function of how often he got on base. As you said, 401 on base career, even playing as long as he did and having an extended decline phase. But then the power, also the power, the 297 homers and everyone knows that he holds that record too.

The most homers, 81 homers to lead off a game. And those things all worked together because the power that he had made pitchers respect him so they couldn't just, you know, throw it right over the middle and know that he couldn't hit it. They had to be careful and pitch around them a little. And when he did, of course he had the teeny tiny strike zone cause he had his crouch and he was selective and he wouldn't chase. And so you were screwed, whatever you did, like you just lobbed something in there.

He could take you deep. You nibbled, he would get on base. And then once he got on base, he would take second and often third and sometimes even home. And it's kind of incredible that he walked as often as he did, even though pitchers knew that it was essentially giving up two or three paces. And so, yeah, not only does he hold the Stolen Bass record by a mile, but probably more than a mile, literally, if we were to probably a lot more to add up all those distances, but also holds the Runs record and holds the Unintentional

Walks record. He broke Babe Ruth's Walk walks record and then Barry Bond surpassed him, but he still holds the unintentional walks record. And yeah, it's partly a function of longevity, but not purely longevity, it was talent too. Yeah, you can miss the forest for the trees on a career like that. And I think most people are, you know, I don't think we're like breaking new ground

to say that Ricky Anderson was good. I don't think he's like, you know, I'm not trying to say that he's one of those Hall of Famers where people are like, he wasn't good actually. And it's like, no, he was, you know, everybody, everybody knows about Ricky, but I just think that his game was so much more complete and multifaceted than it is sometimes given credit for. And I think you're right to, to point out like his stolen base prowess wasn't simply a function of his speed. There are plenty of fast guys,

but the way that he engaged with and studied pictures, his instincts in those moments, you roll all of that up with the speed and he was just this incredible force. And I don't know, I guess you're right on a technical basis that maybe Mike Schmidt is the greatest, was the greatest living guy. But like when you, when you compare the cultural impact, like no disrespect to Mike Schmidt, sorry,

sorry, I don't need to, but also like, come on, come on. Yeah. Almost no one compares to Ricky in that respect. And I do think he really was underrated, even though obviously people knew he was good for a few reasons. I think one, he didn't make the all century team, which was in 1999 and he was still a productive player at that point. It was, the evidence was right in front of people's faces that he was 40 years old and still good. And he was the 17th leading vote getter among outfielders in the all century voting. And so he didn't make that team.

He was behind say Tony Gwyn, who was, you know, great player hallfamer, but not really in Ricky's class overall value wise. And not only was there that snub, but really he made 10 all-star teams. Now that's a lot, but it's not really a lot. It's not enough. Yeah. It's not enough for someone who played 25 seasons and had 14 seasons of greater than four and a half war. And when you're a legend like that, often you just get into the All-Star

game just for sentimental reasons. And for him, that didn't happen. He didn't make an All-Star team after 1992 when he was 33 years old. He didn't get those all-star team after 1992, when he was 33 years old. He didn't get those just, here's a victory lap, you know, the old guy comes out and gets to take his bow. And during the years of his career, there were nine hitters who made more all-star teams than Ricky. And there were not nine hitters who were better than Ricky. There was one, Barry Bonds. Cal Ripken Jr. Made 19 All-Star games and he played, you know, he was a contemporary of Ricky and he made a bunch of post-prime appearances. Tony Gwynn was an All-Star 15 times.

Maybe that was partly because Ricky was floating around a lot and he was getting traded and he was playing for nine different teams, but it wasn't solely that. And he won one MVP award in 1990 and he could have, or should have won three. Maybe he just, he had some low placements in the MVP voting when he was the war leader or close to it, he won one gold glove, even though he led ALF fielders in fielding runs five times and even center fielders one time and just one gold glove. Look, they didn't have the stats that I'm looking at to say, oh, this is underrated. And how could they, they weren't looking at war or total zone fielding runs or

anything, but even so I think they could have given him more of his due. And, and he said that, said that he wouldn't get his due and he lumped Barry Bonds in with this. We never got our due and we're never going to get our due until it's all over with. And now sadly it is all over with and we can give him that overdue due because he wasn't just great.

Like he was all-timer top. He was an all-timer. Yeah, top 20 minimum player all-time. And that might be underselling him even. Yep. Yeah, I agree. Here's the other mind blowing stat that I came across that was kind of touched on by Bill James in the abstract, but even he undersold it, I think.

And I have this table in my piece. So the career stolen base leaders, if you look at the leaders under 30 years old and 30 and older, Ricky Henderson is number one on both leaderboards, but the 17 guys after him on each of those lists, there's no repeat. There's no guy who placed on both of those lists in the top 18. And that's, you know, arbitrary. That's where the facts cuts off. But, but 18 guys, the 17 trailing him on the under 30 leaderboard and the 17 trailing him on the over 30 leaderboard,

they're all different guys. And yet there's Ricky, number one with a bullet on both lists. And that's how you end up with 1400 plus stolen bases because he just never slowed down. He was Energizer Ricky, but that's kind of amazing. And I guess it's because if you're a great base dealer, you might not be a great young base dealer because maybe you take time to refine your technique and learn how to channel your raw speed into actually picking your spots. Or maybe you're

just not that great an offensive player early on and you have to figure out how to work your way on base enough to have steel opportunities like an Ozzie Smith or someone. And then maybe if you're a great young base dealer, there's just so much damage that you do to yourself that you can't keep it up. I think we've talked about the Maury Wills quote when he stole 104 bases in 1962. He said, I don't see how I can ever come close again. The physical beating I took is more than I want to endure. And he never got to triple digits again.

Ricky reached triple digits three times in four years and he just never stopped. And so that's really the difference with him. He didn't lead Ty Cobb by that many on the under 30 list or Lou Brock, he barely beat on the over 30 list, but he was miles better than anyone when you combine both lists because just an absolute outlier in continuing to keep up that stealing at an advanced stage. So just unbelievably durable, even though he's never connected to any PEDs or anything. So many players from his era were, and even his teams and Jose Canseco, even vouch for him as not a PED guy.

And Ricky said, my God, could you imagine Ricky on Roids? Oh baby, look out. I'm almost sad we didn't see that, but happy also because there's just no stain associated with his career. Yes. Being able to just enjoy it and appreciate it for what it is, is I think a really tremendous gift because there are so many guys from that era where how much it matters to you, your mileage can vary on that stuff, but not having to have the conversation is just such a gift because it just allows you to bask in like, what was an incredible

career and, you know, an incredible person and personality to go with it. So it's like a really special thing. It is. And he was one of those guys who's like naturally built. Obviously he stayed in shape and he worked hard and he ran and he did all sorts of bodyweight exercises, but he's very much kind of like Willie where you look at shirtless pictures of him and you're like, damn, you know. And he just, he had that physique and maintained it really late in life. And I think he's more appreciated today and partly because we've kind of caught up to the value that he offered. So the on-base ability,

people didn't appreciate that as much during his career, which is a very batting average first era. And that's why Tony Gwyn was rated as highly as he was. And now we know, oh, Ricky getting on base as often as he retired or his last year in the big leagues was the year Moneyball came out and then everything changed. So he was a little too early really to get the proper appreciation there. Yeah. It's not like he had bad batting averages through his career, but they did, you know, it wasn't like he was a 300 hitter every year either. Although he did have plenty of seasons. Sometimes. He hit 300 or better.

Yep. He had so many seasons that at some point in there. Yeah. And that's part of it. And then I think also the power that he brought to the leadoff position. And a lot of people have talked about how he just became the new leadoff archetype, where it wasn't just the on-base speedster, but also someone could really wallop pitches. And so now I think that probably his leadoff home run record will be broken in the not too distant future by George Springer, Mookie Betts or Kyle Schwaber or Ronald Acuna Jr. or someone like that. And I think that owes a debt to Ricky showing that yeah, you can have pop in the leadoff spot and that's actually advantageous too. So he really remade the

institution of being a leadoff guy in his image to some extent. And then just the way he played the game, again, he helped here and this is sort of Reggie preceded him in this in Oakland. And then just the way he played the game, again, he helped here. And this is sort of, you know, Reggie preceded him in this in Oakland. And as a black man in that era, who was probably in for greater abuse, just doing something that any other player wouldn't have been criticized to the same extent for. But the fact that he stunted a little and he pimped his homers and he talked a big game and played a bigger game. Right. That stuff now I think would be celebrated.

We would look at that as he's showing emotion. He's sincere. He's authentic. We don't want baseball players to always just be buttoned down, not smiling, not celebrating. Now, like he'd be big on social media and all the quirky Ricky stories, which were largely apocryphal, but there was some truth to them and some of that was distorted and maybe kind of turning him into this comic figure in a way, but there was an aspect to him that was just genuinely funny and like no one else. All of those things I think would be celebrated now or like he wanted to get paid.

All of those things I think would be celebrated now, or like he wanted to get paid. And fans now to some extent, and certainly the media is much more pro-labor than it was back then. And so- I think the reaction to that would be among the things that would be the most different about how he was received today,

I think that would be number one easily, that it's like he wanted to get paid, and you know what? Fine. He was a great player. Yeah. And there were some times where he'd sign a longer term deal and then someone else would get a bigger deal and then he'd want to tear up his contract to be the new highest paid

player. And that sort of thing. Even now people are like, well, you signed your deal, so you got to abide by that. But when he would hold out and just get what he deserved or closer to it, at least people would support that. But, but when he would hold out and just, you know, get what he deserved or closer to it, at least people would support that, you know, and, and people, anytime anyone mentions the Mike Piazza autobiography story about Ricky, where he relates how Ricky always called for a full post-season share for anyone because it could change someone's life. That sort of thing now is very much celebrated. And, you know, even though there was a bit of bragging that went on justified, like off the field, he seems to have been fairly humble and like a good, kind

guy who would do things for people and the community and kids. And it was just refreshing because how often with legends these days, if we're talking about either their passing or their hall of fame candidacy, you're wading into just terrible stuff that they did. I mean, Pete Rose obviously, but even current hall of fame candidates or recent ones where it's not just the cheating and the PED stuff, but even more glaring, you know, it's not quite as visible, though I think it should be, but all the domestic violence stuff or the DUIs and all this nasty off the field stuff. And Ricky, there's nothing,

really. You look at the personal section of his Wikipedia page and it's about how he married his high school sweetheart and they had three kids. That's it. That is it. He's pretty spotless. it. That is it. He's pretty spotless. So all the controversy, it's such small beans in retrospect. There's just nothing really to ding him about the way that there is with so many other legends from that era and since. And it was really refreshing to see that, especially for a guy who rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. And when Manfred said in his statement that he earned universal respect, admiration, and awe from sports fans, maybe now, definitely not during his career, it wasn't universal, but he ruffled feathers and really looking back in it. Now it's, there's just really nothing to get on his case that much about.

Also like load management. He would take days off. And people would give him guff and like question his want and that's like you think about it in hindsight is absolutely wild to contemplate given, you know, first of all just like the physical toll that being as prolific a base dealer as he was had to have taken for him to have tried to manage that in largely in service of being available as often as possible. It just seems, you know, in hindsight, what he was trying to do is sort of accepted best

practice. And I know there's a lot, there's a talk now about like, has load management gone too far and this and that. But when we think about a guy who managed to deliver just like incredible, not only value from a team perspective, from a runs, created a run scored perspective, but entertainment value to the game, to the fans of the teams that he played for, you take a couple of days off because your hammies spark in a little bit. Like, oh, okay. to the game, to the fans of the teams that he played for, you take a couple of days off because your hammies spark in a little bit, like, okay.

I just think that the way that we, you know, it's impossible to separate the parts of the rubbing the wrong way. Like there was absolutely part of that that was the era and probably would have applied to any player. There were absolutely parts of that that had a racial component to them. And then you look at how all of that would have been received now. And I don't mean to say that like the way that fans or the media talk about players

is always, you know, pristine when it comes to those things. But I just think that so much of the quote unquote controversy around him would have been just a nothing burger, you know? And to your point, like so many of the indiscretions that had real human impact that some of these guys, even beloved figures within the game, you know, participated and committed over the course of their lives, you know, for him to, I'm sure he wasn't a perfect person, no one among, you know, none of us are, but seems to have been a guy who cared for other people, tried to help others where he could, did not have either baseball-related or personal indiscretions that really mattered. And so many of the things that sparked conversation in the course of

his career, I like to think that we are more enlightened about now than we were when he was an active player, particularly early in his career. I think it did change over the course of the way that his coverage changed over time is probably a really interesting case study and sort of how labor questions, race and sports, how that stuff started to evolve and change over time. And again, I'm sure that it wasn't perfect, you know, even in, in 2003, but I'd like to think that we have at least come a distance, even if not all the way. And the famous proclamation that he's the greatest of all time when he broke

Brock's record, that's a case where if he said that now, I don't think anyone would bat an eye, first of all, it's indisputably true that he was the greatest of all time. And he was talking specifically about the base stealing records. And also you hear that little sound bite at the end of it where he just matter of factly says and truthfully says that he's the greatest of all time. But before that, you listen to the whole speech. He thanked God, he thanked the fans, he thanked his mother, he credited Brock with being the symbol of great base-dealing. So yeah, he had some swag, but this wasn't like the height of hubris. He was just stating that he was the greatest of all time in terms of base-

dealing, obviously. So I don't think anyone would look down on him now for saying something like that. And that just colored his image for years after that. We don't actually get to encounter the true greatest at something very often because it's hard to be that, you know, and we're recording this on Monday. And I was watching NFL games yesterday and, you know, they're talking about Saquon Barkley and, you know, rushing records and all of this stuff. And like some of these records just stand in sports for such a long time that you get to a point where most sports fans have not even seen the previous iteration of that.

We don't get to encounter true greatness very often. And I think that there are a lot of people who claim it falsely and, you know, professional sports is really hard and what these folks put themselves through is challenging physically and mentally. And if you got to say you're the greatest to psych yourself up, you know, it's not really my place to counter that. I might quibble with the accuracy of the proclamation, but you know, I think that people have to find their bulletin board material where they can. But I think that when you are quite literally the greatest at something and to your point, like, you know, he wasn't saying he was the best baseball player of all time. Like you said, he's certainly high up on that leaderboard. I think you get

to say it, you know, you get to say it so that people can take a moment to sort of bask in it and appreciate like, oh yeah, indisputably true. How about that? CB And you said there's only one Ricky, there only was, there probably only ever will be, but MLB would like there to be more Ricky's and is trying to make the game more Ricky-like. And Manfred in his statement did acknowledge that the rules changes when we consider new rules for the game. In recent years, we had the era of Ricky Henderson in mind. And so they're trying to bring back that high contact speed type of era. And there was the Brian Cranston promo field like Ozzy run like Ricky. And you see the shot of Ricky running and you just can't quite do it.

Even if you make it easier to steal bases, they're just not going to steal quite as many as Ricky did. And Ricky of course said he wished they'd leave the game alone, but if they were going to make those changes, they got to add 50 or 60 to his total. I don't know whether he meant lifetime or per season, probably. Knowing Ricky, likely the latter, and you could make the case, but you're still just not going to get that kind of volume in this day and age. And who knows if Ricky, if he were reincarnated, if there were some

Ricky like player who came along now, I don't know that he'd be a baseball player because Ricky was a football first guy who had to be convinced to play baseball and his mother was pro him playing baseball. She thought it would be safer. His career would last longer. Can't argue with that in retrospect, but he loves football and given the ascendance of football since then, and given the dwindling African-American player population in MLB, which is again, another thing that MLB is trying to

restore, who knows if we would even get to appreciate him as a baseball player now, but I'm glad that we did and we do. Yeah. I kind of can't imagine the game's history without him. So RIP Ricky, we will miss him, but we will think of him often. Yeah. And now I guess we should talk some transactions. Oh yeah, there were so many.

Yeah. We can just do some rapid fire. No, we don't have to get through all of them. Some of them weren't that notable, but we can kind of lump some of them together because there was a run on first baseman almost in a fantasy draft style way where someone takes the first baseman and everyone's like, oh, I got to go get one of the few remaining first baseman and then suddenly they're all off the board. That's what happened here. Christian Walker signed with the Astros who had traded Kyle Tucker and missed out on trading for Nolan Arnado because

he rejected the trade. And then Josh Naylor replaces Christian Walker. He gets traded from Cleveland to Arizona. Carlos Santana gets signed by Cleveland to replace Naylor. Then the Yankees get Paul Goldschmidt, the Nationals trade for Nathaniel Lowe. And then I guess you could kind of lump the ace signing Geo Urshela in there, maybe, but that's who knows. I don't know if he'll play first and also he's Geo Urshela.

So what do you make of the fact that every team seemingly filled its first base vacancy in the span of a couple of days? I'm mostly fascinated. This is such an annoying answer I'm about to give because it is about someone who didn't sign, but I really am curious what this means for Pete Alonso. I think that that was my first thought Well, my first thought was that I was very happy for Christian Walker Sad that I will not get to continue to watch him sort of up close in Arizona The Mariners fan in me is annoyed that he's gonna be an Astro

But good for him. I know that I think he was looking for a fourth year and obviously didn't get it, but three years and 60 million certainly validates the decision to reject the qualifying offer. He's a tremendous player. Good for him. Really excellent defensive first baseman. And you know, we'll have to see kind of where he settles between the highs that he's set and and some of his lows but um when he is healthy uh he has been very productive in recent seasons so really great player think that that's a great fit really closes the door on any potential Aeronauto stuff because I imagine they will have Parades at third and Bregman for

that matter right and Bregman yes um so And Bregman for that matter. Right, and Bregman, yes. So Alex Bregman gonna be wearing a different uniform seemingly. The Santana reunion for Cleveland makes sense. It sounds like he was actually offered more money by the Mariners, but decided he wanted to go back to Cleveland, which further cements my suspicion that he just really loves living in the Midwest.

Naylor, like, I don't know, I feel, I don't wanna be too harsh on him. Definitely a step down for the Diamondbacks from Christian Walker, but you know, not a bad player. I think that Lowe is an interesting- Defensively, big step down, certainly. Big, big, big step down. Big, big step down.

Like, he had a 118 WRC plus last year. It's not like he's a bad hitter, 31 bombs. So like that's nice, but yeah, you're, you're really taking a hit in terms of your first base defense and it'll be interesting. Like this is such a me watching the Diamondbacks a lot thing to say, but when they cemented Cattell on the infield, as opposed to trying him in center,

obviously they don't really need to do that given their outfield options now, but it could tell us fine out there. But I think that there were times when he kind of got bailed out a little bit by Christian Walker and his ability to make good plays at first. So I'll be curious to see sort of what that means for the rest of that infield, but where's Pete Alonso gonna go now, Ben? Yeah, who's left? Who doesn't have a first baseman? I guess the Mets. The Mets. Maybe he's gonna be a Met, although the Mets keep giving like three or 75 million

dollar deals to pitchers. Yeah, we'll get to that too. Yeah, like I don't know. It does seem like a lot of what the guardians are doing is, is driven by money. And the single year difference, I guess, is not big here. I mean, they signed Santana, what was it? 12 million or something for a year. And it's, you know, he's coming off that very fun gold glove at an advanced stage and still pretty productive though, at his age, you never know. The know the cliff could be coming, but it's cool for him to go full circle and go back to the guardians and everything.

But it does seem like a lot of what the guardians are doing this off season is driven by who's getting expensive and who's arbitration eligible trading. Josh Naylor for Slade Zaccone. It seems like it's mostly just salary dumping sort of, right? And I know they have depth at the position and they can just pencil in Kyle Manzardo and other guys long-term, but does this exchange make them better? I don't really think so. And are they going to take money that they save in any of these moves?

I guess they're not one-to-one saving money here, but yeah, it's just, you know, standard operating procedure for the guardians, which doesn't mean they're not going to be good and competitive and that they can't keep it going because they have managed to do that and have come out better after a lot of trades. But yeah, it just does seem like that's what's driving a lot of what they do. Yeah. I mean, I am interested to see what they are able to kind of make of Slade Saccone because

I think that their pitching development is obviously superior to Arizona's. So it's not like that isn't a potentially interesting move, but yeah, I think that, you know, there's a very obvious through line here with all of their moves where they have a couple guys, they're getting expensive relative to what the guardians are willing to pay. They're looking to either the young guys who are up now like Menzardo or young guys who might be up in the near future like Bazzana. And so they're just, you know, they're doing, they're doing guardians stuff. Um, and it's like you said, it's not to say that it can't work and it's not to

say that they can't be good, but it also feels like they remain a franchise committed to like playing on hard mode. So yeah, it does sort of stink to break up the nailers, but oh well. Well, does it though? This is a question that I have. I don't have any, to be clear, I don't have any insight that the brothers like secretly don't get along or whatever, but I am curious, like on some level, are they like, are they sad? Cause they aren't going to get to see each other. Do they get to like kind of stand on their own now? You know, it's,

it's interesting at least, at least they both remain on teams that, you know, do spring training in Arizona. So they'll presumably get to spend some amount of time together in the spring. But yeah. For hang up and listen, I just watched the two Hallmark lifetime Christmas movies inspired by Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce. How are they? Not good. Yeah. Yeah. Swift and Travis Kelce. How are they? Not good. Yeah. Yeah.

Fun, kind of fun. On a Hallmark Netflix like Christmas movie adjusted basis, how are they? Yeah, not bad. So pretty par for the course, I guess. I enjoyed one in particular Christmas in the spotlight, which was the lifetime one. And that was very much about the younger brother, Jason Kelce dynamic and the younger brother is under, it's in his older brother's shadow and you know, likes having his guidance, but chafes at his leadership at times or outshining him.

So yeah, who knows? Maybe there's something similar going on with the nailers. Maybe they should make a Christmas movie about it. But you look at MLB trade rumors, they had a post, where will Pete Alonso end up? This was on December 18th. And the likely suitors were Astros. Okay. We can cross them off the list. Yep.

Nationals. Well, we can cross them off the list and Yankees. All right. They're off the list too. So that leaves only the Mets in the likely suitors. And then you've got plausible dark horses, blue J's. Okay. Diamond backs, cross them off the list too. Yeah. Giants, reds, tigers. So yeah, the market's getting a little thin. I'd be a bit nervous

if I were the polar bear there, but if a Mets reunion happens, that's nice from a sort of sentimentality standpoint. I don't know how nice it'll be from a contract standpoint from his perspective. Yeah. I mean, right now they have, I guess they have the intos that they would probably play at first, right? Cause they'll have that Beatty at third, but they don't have like a real pressing need necessarily. So I do wonder, I'll feel bad for Alonzo if he ends up kind of out in the cold on this because you know, he's a new 30, a young 30, a recent 30, happy belated birthday Pete Alonzo, but he's not necessarily at the age where you're like, oh yeah, definitely take a pillow, you know, one year pillow contract and then see what, you know, there is to see out there. He's, he probably wants to sign something a little long-term and I wonder

if he will come to regret having rejected the qualifying offer. I don't know. It's premature. Like you might offer prior to that. But yeah, well, if he does end up in the cold, it's a natural habitat for the polar bear, but there are a lot of old first baseman here, changing teams, getting jobs, not so much Naylor who's 27 or I guess Lowe who's 29, but there are some contenders here that are entrusting the position to some pretty long in the tooth first baseman here. So you've got Carlos Santana. I know they're like our age, if not younger, but still. Carlos Santana and then the Yankees going with Goldschmidt and they had been in the market for other candidates and Goldschmidt's the guy they got.

And it's a one year deal. And obviously if he repeats what he did last season, that wouldn't be great. It would be better than they got out at Anthony Rizzo, I suppose, but they're obviously hoping for some last gasp, some slight bounce back here at a Goldschmidt's bad. It's a 12 and a half million dollar deal and he still hits the ball pretty hard. He hit a lot better late last season. If you split up the season, he was well above average late in the year. So he did kind of get it going. And I guess you hope that's the case. You're not hoping for a rebound to MVP Goldschmidt level, but just decently

productive veteran kind of contract here. That's what you hope you're getting out of him. And then of course, Walker is what he'll be 34 by opening day. And that's a three year deal. So they are making a longer term commitment there. Can't go worse than the Jose Abreu signing, but you are still banking on the bat holding up and the glove holding up. And I don't think that's a bad investment necessarily, but it can be kind of confusing given that the Astros are shipping out Kyle Tucker and then also

trying to bring back Arnado and then signing Christian Walker. What are you doing here? They're weird. It's weird. They're weird. They're weird now. It's weird. They are weird now.

They're weird now, team. They were always weird in a different way, but now they're weird in a way that is kind of internally inconsistent or the logic is difficult to discern. Whereas it used to be more, you could see the logic. You could question the, the cutthroatedness of it or the sort of, you know, putting emotions aside and running everything via computer kind of approach to, to team building, but now it's just like, huh, what is the through line here? So if you don't think you can either convince Tucker to sign, or you, you

don't want to commit that money long-term. Okay. I guess it's good that they're still going out and getting Walker and not just raising the white flag and they're still spending some money and trying to compete here, but it's also like, but you could have just kept Kyle Tucker and maybe signing him long-term would have been a good investment. And yeah, it's just, I don't know exactly what is happening there, but you still, you got to say they're the favorite in the

West now. I think after adding Walker, even losing Tucker and Bregman presumably, still the Mariners can't or won't seem to sign anyone of great import here. So I think I saw John Becker post that they are one of nine teams that has yet to commit to a major league deal. So that's a thing that's happened. And you know, Rangers also signed Jarred Peterson, so like they're doing stuff. Yeah.

So what do you make of that? Is that just, it was too crowded once you got Jake Berger or why get Berger and then trade Low and then you send Peterson too. Yeah. I, I would rather probably have kept low and had him play first in the DH burger. But I suppose that they will play burger at first and then they will DH jock. They have Simeon and Seager at the top. You know, you, you figure that Langford will take a

step forward. We'll kind of see what kind of year Garcia has. He seems to vacillate pretty widely, but obviously is capable of a lot. And then you still have some, in addition to Langford, you have guys like Josh Young and Evan Carter where you're kind of trying to sort out what they're going to be. I think that they will have an impressive lineup. I think the big question marks with Texas remain like what version of the rotation are they gonna get both in terms of how effective the older guys are gonna be and then like how much are you getting out of some of them, right? Because they have a rotation that is quite old and often injured and you don't know how many innings you're getting out of de Grom. So you're like really banking on Nathaniel Valdi. We talked about that

when that signing happened. So I don't know, I think they'll hit but I don't know what their pitching is gonna look like. So I don't know, it's a weird division. Yeah, one of these moves I always think just because you got this guy doesn't mean you have to get rid of that guy. We said that about the Cubs and when they got Tucker, you could still keep Bellinger if you're, especially if you're going to pocket that cash that you saved by signing him and not get anything back, at least in that trade.

They still have an opportunity to sign someone. We'll see if they do. But even if you have a little bit of redundancy there, and you could say the same about Berger and Lowe, if they had kept both, that's okay often because these problems tend to resolve themselves. As we saw with the Rangers last year, you start and think you have too many players for this number of positions and then suddenly half of them ever hurt. And you're happy that you had that depth.

So sometimes it's good to go in with an extra layer of protection or a fallback plan. Every time I hear Jake Berger's name, I want to say it like I'm Brian Cox and the burger, juicy burger. Can't help it. That's what I think of every time. And I guess a few pitching moves we should touch on here. Some NL East specifically pitcher moves. So the Nationals, they signed Mike Soroka to a one-year deal. That was the smallest print headline move that happened. And then the Mets re-signed Sean Manaya to the Nathan Ivaldi deal, essentially three

years in 75. Yeah. Although in this case, there was deferred cash involved. So, you know, just to re-complicate things, we had a nice little run of simple contract terms. And this one's got about $23 million in deferred money that will be paid out over a 10-year period starting in 2035. But they get Manaya and then the Phillies made a pretty major trade.

They did. And they traded for Jesus Luzardo previously, by the way, they signed Max Kepler to a one-year deal as well. So they trade for Luzardo from the Marlins. And that would have been bigger news a year ago than it is now coming off the season that Luzardo had, but still pretty significant. And they traded some notable prospects to the Marlins in this move. So I don't know if you have insights into the prospects dealt, but that Phillies rotation,

woo, if Luzzardo is healthy, which is always a question with him. I was going to say that's doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. Yeah. They have leapfrogged the Dodgers now on the positional depth charts, so starting pitcher projections and, and they've perennially been at the top there, but Wheeler, Nola, Sanchez, Suarez, and Luzardo with Andrew Painter and Tywan Walker and others backing them up. Man, that, that's a top five for you. How often those top five will actually

be the rotation, who knows? Though the Phillies have been pretty lucky or good when it comes to keeping their top arms healthy. But if all those five, if they're firing on all five cylinders, that's a pretty sexy group. Yeah, it is a sexy group. If you want to say something encouraging about the injury front for Lazardo last year, it was a back injury, right? That kept him out. It was not another arm issue. But also back injuries are terrifying because they recur all the time, especially as you get into your 30s. Kaba is... He was a top 100 guy for us. I know that Eric's gonna write about that deal. Really elite rates of contact. is he was a top 100 guy for us. I know that Eric's going to write about that deal. Really

elite rates of contact, incredible defensive player. I think that Eric had an 80 future value grade on him in terms of his fielding and I don't think he's moving off of that. Shortstop, right? Starlin. Shortstop. Starlin Kaba. Yeah. He's 19 though, so he's probably a ways away. He was like in A-ball. Yes, he played most of last year on the Complex and then he went to A-ball and did not perform particularly well there, but yeah, he's only 19.

So kind of, you know, you're gonna see what you get there as time goes on. You know, probably an acknowledgement on the part of the Marlins that they are not in shape to compete next year, right? Because Boyd, the other, the outfield prospect that they acquired, who they acquired is, was in high A last year. So you know, it's not like they're like getting close to the majors guys or existing

major league talent. Yeah, I mean, like, again, if Lizardo is healthy, then watch out. But he has not been healthy really at almost any point in his career. The 178 innings he threw in in 2023 were a high, an easy career high for him. So there's always been something, but he's incredibly talented and he's very effective when he's on the field. He'll be there and then I think they got Paul McIntosh also in that move. And yeah, they signed Kepler.

I still think that that outfield needs reinforcement for Philly, but what are you gonna do? Shamanaya, good for you, bud. Even with the deferrals did better than I thought he would do. So that's nifty. Yeah, that was an interesting free agency because it was how much the teams buy into his midseason reinvention as Chris Sale light. And I guess they did. I guess. Enough. Yeah. Well, and you know, if any team, I guess it's a vote of confidence that the team that ended up buying in was his team.

If anyone's going to know, it would be the Mets. Then I guess the news that broke this morning is Walker Bueller to the Red Sox. Yeah, it's going to be weird to see Bueller in a different uniform, but the Red Sox also signed Patrick Sandoval. So they're picking up a couple players who are or have been damaged goods kind of coming back from elbow surgeries and banking on rebounds for both of them. And I have no idea what to make of Walker Bueller really. He struggled most of the season and then showed some signs in the postseason, but was still not quite peak Bueller, but another off season of rest and training and recovery. Yeah.

Shock me if he got some of his stuff and command back and became a good pitcher, but yeah, it's sort of a speculative play. I don't know. And Sandoval, he had internal brace repair, So he had his surgery at some point last season, but he could be back at some point this season and they got him on a two-year deal for 18 and a quarter. So that if they get a partial season from him this year, then they get 2026 as well, which could work out for them if he's good. Whereas Bueller is just a one-year 21.05. It's

like exactly the qualifying offer amount. It can't be a coincidence. It's interesting. Obviously a lot will be dictated by health as is always the case with pitchers, but that group, assuming it's healthy and assuming that Buhler is able to continue to pitch as we saw him do, assuming that Bueller is able to continue to pitch as we saw him do, particularly as the postseason went on, you know, you lead with Garrett Crochet, you see what you can get out of Tanner Hauck, you see what half a Tanner Hauck season you're getting. I still am always just going to assume that Brian Baio can pull it together and then you got Crawford and Bueller, like that could end up being a really good group. But you know, there are some question marks with all of them, even with Crochet, you know.

And I think Garrett Crochet is going to be really good, but you still have to wonder like, what is the durability going to look like? And you know, is he going to be able to sustain? And so I would say it's a group with the potential for a lot of positive variants. And it's also a group where if you told me like half of them are hurt come the middle of the year, I'd be like, well, yeah, you know, that's, that's what's going to happen with that crew. So there's a lot there that is, is kind of interesting. You know, they have, like you said, like they're sand of all. When did G Alito have his surgery? Oh yeah. I guess. I guess it was right before the season, right? I think it was right before, it was like spring training-ish. LS You know, and he exercised his adoption.

So we'll see. We'll kind of see what's going on with Boston. I don't know. We'll see. CB Yeah. Mid-March, Gioelito. You can say that about the Mets too, just like half these guys could be hurt or not very good, or they could all be really good. And it's going to be tough for me because maybe it's better actually, because I sometimes, and I don't think I'm the only one, but people confuse Sean Maniah and Frankie Montas, I think because like they both have the six letter last names that start with M and they're like less than a year apart in age. And there's a lot that separates them. And they're both former aides, apart in age. And there's a lot that separates them.

And they're both former aides. Yeah, right. So you have that. And Maltas is a righty and Manaya is a lefty. And there are many other things that separate them, but they're also, yeah, kind of comparable careers and like, you know, similar career value, almost identical projections now that I look at it and injury issues. I feel like they've been on the market at the same time at various points. So I get it,

but yeah, the handedness is the easiest way to tell them apart, apart from anything else. And hair. Also, when I has got that hair. Yeah, right. Yeah, but well, maybe it's good. They'll be on the same team. At least I'll get the team right, even if I confuse them. Although I'm even more liable to mix them up probably internally at this point. But yeah, they're kind of doubling down on their strategy from last year of like, let's shop in the middle of the market sort of. Maybe Manaya, given his mid-season mini breakout is closer to the top of the market than he was, but we'll just piece it together and we'll hope that Senga is healthy and gives us a full

season and maybe it'll work. And who knows, there are the Mets, can't count them out in anyone's market. So. And there's, there's still, you know, there's still some high profile guys out there. Obviously we won't get an answer on the Sasaki question until after January 15th now. I was like, okay, I can at least cross that one off. That one's not going to happen over the break because we're in between signing periods for the guys who are bonus pool restricted. But yeah, like we still, you know, the Corbin Burns shoe has yet to drop. I guess Flaherty is still available. Uh, and then, you know, you can kind of go down into the next, uh, wrong

Pavetta is still out there. And then you have like the old guys, you know, you got the old guys pen. Yeah. One thing about the Sandoval signing, it makes the angels decision look odd, which maybe it already did, but the fact that the angels non-tendered Sandoval, who was a bright spot for them. He was a good pitcher. Now, not so much in 2024, he was not so good and also he got hurt and had Tommy John, but he still, or I guess internal brace repair, I must specify, but prior to that, he was a good, well above average pitcher for them for a few years.

And they non-tendered him, even though he wasn't in line for a huge payday. If you believe Matt Swartz's MLB trade rumors arbitration predictions, he said 5.9 million. That's not a lot, even though you're not getting a full season from him. But even so, if he could go out and get 18 and a quarter, then you'd think like the angels could have kept him around for a lot less than that. And it's not like they're swimming in, in starting pitching or anything else. So odd. I mean, not the first time that the angels have done something odd, but, uh,

but that's a weird one. Yeah. It's an odd choice. Oh, and I guess Clay Holmes, Clay Holmes is a M one. Yeah. It's an odd choice. Oh, and I guess Clay Holmes, Clay Holmes is a Met too. I'm a starter for the Mets. I'm going to keep forgetting until he actually is like on the mound in a start. And I'm going to be like, oh yeah, remember when you were a lever, but now you're a starter.

Yeah. And also- We'll see how long it goes, I guess. Andrew McCutcheon resigned with the Pirates, which one year, 5 million. It feels almost like a given at this point, but it's still nice. As long as he is moderately productive and certainly as long as the pirates are not very good, then just keep running Cutch out there. Cause it's heartwarming.

You know, like happy they had that reunion, happy they can keep it going as long as it's mutually beneficial. Also some of those deals, Passon broke the Manaya deal at 144 Eastern in the morning, that is, and I know, you know, he's probably not on Eastern time, maybe, but still, and then Heyman chimed in at 1 50 AM and confirmed it. And then Rosenthal confirmed it at 4 57 AM after breaking the Jock Peterson signing at 4 a.m. eastern two minutes later passing confirmed jock peterson at 452 do you think boys go to bed yeah and passing joked about that he

was like go to sleep people but uh but you go to sleep like yeah jock peterson is not worth pulling the all-nighter for right like if you're breaking some enormous signing, okay, fine. Right. Sean Manaya, that's somewhat significant too. And okay, that was only, that was before 2 a.m. Eastern, but we don't need Jack Peterson news at 4 50 in the morning. First of all, like, why is that news even surfacing then? Did that actually get done at that hour or how is that?

I would love to get some sort of behind the scenes breakdown from, yeah, from Passenthal about how they were both notified about jock Peterson signing with the time and backs it like for something in the morning. How does that happen? And then are you already awake or do those guys, do they just never set their phone on silent or do not disturb? Is it always like loud just in case they get some scoop in the middle of the night and they need to spring to life? And then is there a bar that they have to clear?

Like, okay, I'll tweet this one when I wake up in the morning. I guess, you know, you could tweet it, bleary eyed, turn over and go back to sleep, I suppose. But like, that just, that doesn't even clear the bar of we need to know about Jack Peterson. 450 and not seven or something. Yeah, I mean, I think you're right to note that like, not all of those guys are on Eastern time, although like, you know, I don't keep like tabs on Jeff and Ken and where in the world they are at this particular moment. but in terms of where they live, not always in those time zones. But yeah, as we came into this week, we'll have a couple of Hall of Fame things go up.

Our Jase Dustin Pedroia profile ran today, for instance, but we largely have viewed this period particularly with Christmas on a Wednesday and it's like what do you do? And we just were like it's nice for people to have a break at the end of the year And you know if you have kids like everybody's off and everything so we're like running best of fan graphs and doing some Hall of Fame Business, but largely we'll pick this stuff up on the on the other side of New Year's but I had to sit there with my own thoughts and my on the other side of New Year's. But I had to sit there with my own thoughts and my pre-write list and say,

who needs to sign where I would go, hey Ben, you busy? You gotta write this today. And I have decided that, you know, it's not a long list of guys that I'd break in on. Sasaki we know we won't get, so that's nice. You know, if Bregman signs, Byrne signs, I'm probably going to be like, hey Ben, hey Batman, what are you doing?

Time to do a little work probably. But I would just implore GMs to remember, Pobos to remember, everybody needs a little break. That's why there should just be a transaction freeze. They can't be trusted, none of them. We've talked about that. Yeah. And the main offenders, Dipoto and Preller, they've been quiet this winter, which makes me too quiet. I know. Too quiet.

Feels like they're saving up something for Christmas or Christmas Eve. I mean, Jerry did it last year. I was so relieved when Soto broke on the first night of winter meetings. I was like, okay, thank goodness. Because again, everybody needs a little rest. Not everybody's celebrating Christmas, but people have kids, they're off from school, there are other holidays going on. Let people enjoy the holiday season rolling into New Year's or football games to watch. They're on weird days. Some of them are on Netflix. That's not going to

go well. That's my prediction for the holiday break. They've been stress tested by Jake Paul and Mike Tyson, so they'll be ready to go now. Yeah. I'm sure the exact same number of people are going to be tuning in to watch the NFL and also a Beyonce concert as tuned in to watch Unannoying Influencer and Mike Tyson. There were a lot of people watching that thing. There's like 60 million households or something. So maybe. That ain't nothing compared to the football. Anyway, I just want to remind everyone that you are allowed to take breaks and spend time with your family and to our listeners and readers, if big, big news breaks, we will do it. But,

you know, we have families too and we want to take a little respite, recharge, get back to the new year full strength. And we appreciate everyone's patience as we do so. But yeah, Ken, than we appreciate everyone's patience as we do so. But yeah, Ken, Jeff, John, go to bed. Yeah, it does show a lot of want this deep into their career as journalists and newsbreakers to be tweeting out Jack Peterson signings at that hour of the day. Is it water or is it eye wash? I'm just saying no one's doubting Ken's want. No one's doubting Jeff or John's want. Everybody believes the want. So you guys take a little break, have a cookie.

Oh, I meant to mention the number of bad Boston accents we're gonna get because of Walker Buehler signing with the Red Sox. That is, oh my goodness, that is maybe an underrated aspect of this signing is that everyone is gonna be bringing out their Boston accent for the, it's going to be Nomar all over again with Walker Bueller. Can you do it right now?

No. Really? No, I don't. You know who whose name I thought would be a low key and now he's going to be a Dodger for a while, so it's not going to happen. But I was always of the opinion that Tommy Edmond was like a great Boston like sports talk radio. Like, yeah, freaking Tommy Edmond, dude. You gotta see, I did it. I'm brave. I'm brave. Look, I do. I do voices on the show and occasionally I'll do a voice, but this, yeah, I don't know if this is in my wheelhouse. I don't know that you can screw up really a

Boston attempt at Bueller, which is why we're going to get it so many times. It's kind of your standards, stereotypical Boston word to say or name. I suppose that for you, a native New Yorker, the stakes of the Boston accent attempt are higher because you might set off like a regional war, whereas I'm just some rube from the West doing voices over here. I'm doing voices over here. That's another voice. It was really perfect. And also want to mention, have you looked at the payroll page lately at your website, Rasta Resource, because the Marlins, having traded Luzardo now, they are down there, they are tied with the A's in projected payroll, 66 million, and they're actually below the A's now in projected.

In projected luxury tax, look at that. Yeah, it's only the White Sox are lower. So if the A's are over here spending by their standards to avoid the grievance from the Players Association, the Marlins are now very much in that territory too. And they've been on the receiving end of grievances in the past. None of this is new for the Marlins, but they are down in that danger zone as well. And maybe the revenue sharing there, there's a difference there when it comes to the A's and the Marlins, but yeah, they're, they're not spending.

And really they don't have a lot of players left who are making much money. And you gotta think that if Sandy Alcantara comes back from his Tommy John surgery and reestablishes himself, he's going to be gone too. So, yeah, at the deadline for sure. Yeah. I know that your point is about the bottom of the barrel and I want to respect that point as an important one to make, but you know, it's just like. Mariners, Do you have a

bet with yourselves about whether you can have a bang on league average payroll and avoid any conversation? Good grief, you guys. I know. Oh dear. I guess they did try to have a reunion with Carlos Santana. I should acknowledge the attempt to. We tried. They tried. Yes. And lastly, I'll note because Raymond Chen, effectively wild wiki keeper, he wrote in to say that there was one prediction that we all made that we have not yet reviewed. And I guess it would have been good to bring this up when Sam was on last time, but overlooked

it on episode 2108, which was when we talked about the things we would remember about baseball in 2023 with Sam, he asked us to predict the average number of stolen bases per game in 2024 because 2022's rate was 0.51 per team per game and 2023 was 0.72, big jump with the rule change. And Sam was of the opinion that we had peaked when it came to stolen bases. And I was of the opinion that we had not peaked and that that rate would continue to climb. And so he called upon us to predict what we thought the rates would be.

And I guessed 0.8. So another significant jump up from 0.72. You guessed 0.75, so up a little. You sort of split the difference between me and Sam because he guessed 0.71 that it would actually recede and regress somewhat. And the actual ratio was 0.7445 rounds down to 0.74. So you were the closest. It was a 0.74 stolen bases per team, per game. I feel vindicated just because I brought this up because I thought it's going to

go up again. That was my main thing. I don't think it's gonna go back down again. And I was right about that, but you were more spot on when it came to how much it would increase, which was not very much. I would just like to say I have no memory of that conversation at all, but I'm glad that past Meg did present Meg a solid

and split the difference between the two of ya. So Ben, this is like our last show before many of the holidays. So Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, or Happy taking a day off if you don't celebrate any of those holidays. We hope you have a restful, safe one out there, friends. Yes, we do. But also send us some stories that we missed from this year so that we can talk about that before the end of the year too.

Rest mostly, but not all the way. Exactly. All right. One more non-accent related implication of the Bueller signing that I meant to mention, it also has some free agent contract over under draft implications. Meg took the over on MLB trade rumors prediction of 15 million for Bueller. So she adds to her total. She has a healthy hefty lead over me.

And I think she just might run away with this thing. Here's another ramification I hadn't considered about Passon and Co. tweeting in the middle of the night or the early morning. Friend of the show Brent Rooker had tweeted earlier this month having post notifications turned on for Jeff, aka Jeff Passon, is the only way to exist in the offseason. Well on Monday morning, he tweeted, this really backfired when my phone was popping off at 4am this morning. To be fair, if you're not silencing your phone, that's kind of on you. Sorry, Brent. As Meg would say, skill issue. But also, probably plenty of people did forget to

silence their phones, or at least to silence that particular notification. In which case, maybe they were rudely awakened by some semi-significant signings. And I learned after we recorded Courtesy of the Athletic that Carlos Santana had just sold his house in Cleveland before he heard from the Guardians. It was the first home he purchased in the US. Back in 2012 after he signed his first multi-year deal, all four of the Santana's children were born in the area. Last Monday, thinking he would never play in Cleveland again, Santana instructed a realtor

to put the house on the market. A buyer quickly emerged. On Thursday, Santana signed papers completing the sale. And on Friday, as luck would have it, guess who called for the first time? The Guardians, of course. That is unfortunate timing, though it's nice that he was able to sell his house so quickly. Still, why not wait just in case?

You're a free agent. You never know. You've had this house for more than a decade. What's another few days? While you wait for your present situation to become clear, guess it came back to bite him. But you know what? He can afford another house. And late-breaking additional transaction, the Phillies signed Joe Ross as a swingman.

So some extra starting insurance. Also, I mentioned a moment ago that I wasn't sure offhand about the details of the Marlins use of revenue sharing other than the fact that they receive an ample amount. Ken Rosenthal actually wrote about this at the Athletic the other day. He noted, baseball's collective bargaining agreement requires teams to carry a luxury tax payroll more than one and a half times the amount they receive from local revenue sharing. The Marlins, like the A's, are expected to be among the highest revenue sharing recipients next year at roughly 70 million, if not more. Using that 70 million estimate, the Marlins luxury tax payroll by the end of the season would need to be 105 million. As I said, it's currently estimated at $83 million.

Ken continued, what's amazing about the Marlins' luxury tax number is that approximately 45% of it is unrelated to their current roster. Two players no longer on the team's 40-man, outfielder Abisail Garcia and Reidy Wusuk Goh, account for $15.25 million. Through 2027, the Marlins are also getting hit with a $3 million annual charge as part of the Jean-Carl Stanton trade with the Yankees. And like all teams, they're charged $17. million for player benefits and 1.67 million for their share of the pre-arbitration bonus pool. Ken concluded, can't wait to see how the Marlins raise payroll with owner Bruce Sherman kicking and screaming. Like the A's, they have little choice but to spend. Speaking of spending, you can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going

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The nonagerian baseball legends selectively dialed. But their spiciest takes are still respectfully mild. More than 2,000 episodes retrospectively filed. And at each new one, we still collectively smile That's effectively wild That's effectively wild