Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2296: Season Preview Series: Yankees and White Sox

Episode Date: March 15, 2025

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about completing the season preview series, then preview the 2025 New York Yankees (7:48) with Gary Phillips of the New York Daily News, and the 2025 Chicago White Sox (1:04:41) with Sox Machine’s James Fegan. Audio intro: Xavier LeBlanc, “Effectively Wild Theme” Audio interstitial: Liz Panella, “Effectively Wild Theme” Audio outro: Cory […]

It's the Zombie Runner Bobby Shands, Bobby Shands, Bobby Shands, Effectively Wild! Joey Meneses! No! Walk off three run digger! Stop it! Walk off three run shot! Oh my god! Meg, he's the best player in baseball.

Effectively Wild. Hello and welcome to episode 2296 of Effectively Wild, the FanGraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I am Meg Raleigh of FanGraphs and I am joined by Ben Lamberg live from the floor of the US Senate. No, he's of the ringer. Ben, how are you? I'm thrilled to be wrapping up our season preview series. This is it. We did it.

We have done it once again. We have vanquished the beasts. We have made it all the way to the end of the season preview series. We have learned so much. Yeah. We sort of, we speed ran this one. We did this one quick.

We were very efficient. Yeah. And usually we do it slower by design because we like to have little bits of breaks between the previews, because it can get kind of overwhelming. I mean, not just for us scheduling wise, but also Shane editing wise and then listeners just being bombarded by the previews. And so, yeah, in most years we have done like two previews a week and then something else in between. And we often just went wall to wall previews this year, which worked out well from a scheduling perspective.

That was the real virtue, which probably doesn't matter so much to listeners, other than the fact that they want things to be a little easier for us, hopefully. But yeah, it was good to front loads to kind of cram some previews in early, before even people were at spring training and then before the games began.

Cause that's when it gets tough to get people during the day when we typically record the podcast, cause they're at the ballpark, they're at games. So yeah, and they're at the ballpark, literally like in the ballpark at the press box, there's music playing, there's weak wifi. It just gets harder and harder to do. Door slamming. Door slamming. Never forget the 2025 Meritorious season preview.

But yeah, it was easier that way. And then once we got into the rhythm, it was just, let's do it, let's go for it. Eyes on the prize, I can sniff the end of this thing. And we finish not just before opening day for everyone, but opening day for the Dodgers and Cubs even. We did. So how about that?

We previewed the season before any tiny percentage of the regular season was played. No games played. And as always, we have to thank all the many beat writers who spent time with us because, boy, did you know there are 30 teams, Ben? So many teams and they employ so many guys.

They're just like a bounty of guys. And we talked about, I mean, maybe not every single one of them because we had to get on with it, but we talked about a great many of them. And I always, I always feel much better going into opening day having done our previews. And I have to say as someone who's about to embark on editing the positional power rankings, which kick off on Monday for us at Fangrass, I feel better equipped to do my, my editing for the PPRs this year. I feel like I've got my arms around the whole league,

although I will remain surprised that Michael Conforto was a Dodger just until he's not. So there is that part. Well, we did sort of skip him in the Dodger's preview segment more or less. So that's probably why. But yes, yeah, it's good prep. And we get new listeners who find us one way or another through the team previews. And then we do our bait and switch where suddenly we go back to being weird. Not that we weren't weird at times during the team previews, but we talked about jacked Mr. Mitt last time, but you know, we get talked about Jacked Mr. Met last time, but we get a little more effectively wild.

This is the most meat and potatoes we ever get throughout the year, which probably for some people is more of what they want, and for some people is less of what they want, but we aim to give everyone something that they like, whether it's during the previews or not. So yes, thanks to our guests. We had good guests this year, I think.

Not that we don't normally have good guests, but I just felt good about our guests. I do too. We can kind of pencil in or pen in probably, I don't know, two thirds of them at this point, because they're just perennials. They're just with us every year and we know them and love them.

And then people leave the beats or people are unavailable or whatever it is. Whatever it is. And we have to try out some new folks. And I think we did well with the new folks this year too. And in fact, we will be talking to a new folk this episode. We have a Yankees preview and we will be talking to Gary Phillips of the New York Daily News

for the first time. And then we'll be bringing back one of the annual guests, the returning people who's always with us, James Fegan. We'll be here to talk about the White Sox. And I think we're just going to get right into it because, you know, it's been a slow news week for baseball. Slow nose week as well, I guess. Probably haven't heard any nose related news that really rose.

Mine's still on my face as far as I can tell. Me too. So, it hasn't been a slow news week in other areas. It never is anymore. But in baseball, yeah, we're just kind of fresh out of banter. And that's okay, because we have like two hours of previews for you. So, we don't have to press here. We don't have to feel like we need to give them something else when we have two hours of episode here. So we will just get right into it. You know, we're, we're gassed. I think at this point we've, we've made it to the end of our 30 team sprint. Yeah, exactly. Yes, we will lean on our previewers today and let us know if you enjoyed the series, if there's anything you'd like us to do differently next time this thing rolls around.

And look, we aim to be pretty comprehensive, probably more comprehensive than most people, less comprehensive than say, if you are a team specific local podcast and you're covering everything, but more comprehensive than probably any other national podcast is going to be for better or worse. But hey, we're, we're for the sickos here, but we also aim to be for everyone else. We want it to be a big tent. We don't want a gatekeep. We welcome the casuals and maybe we can convert the casuals into sickos. That's the ultimate goal here. But yeah, whether you tuned in for all 30 or you dipped in and

out depending on your interest in the team, I welcome yours either way. And also, you know, I thanked the B writers, but also, you know, we want to say hey, we always pick up some new listeners through the team previews. And so we welcome you. We hope you enjoy the pod as we transition to in-season content. I feel like last episode where we spent time with some guests, we talked about breakups and then we started the episode by sharing something weird and horny. Like that is, you're getting a sense of it, you know?

Like you're getting a feel for the pod. We will talk about the mascots. We will occasionally talk about tits. Only occasionally though. It doesn't come up very often except when it's on a hat. So, you know, this is the pod and we hope you stick around for the rest of this episode, but also the season because we like having folks here.

So there you go. Yes, we do. And thanks also to Shane McKeon for shouldering an even heavier than usual load. Yes. Our episodes are long always, but they're especially long during the team previews. And the audio quality can be variable. And so you never know what you're going to get.

So thank you, Shane. Thank you, Shane. All right. Well, we won't even take a break because this hasn't been long enough that you need a break. So we will just roll our first preview guest in here. And then we will talk to James about the White Sox a little later on. Alright, it is time to talk about the walking wounded, the New York Yankees, and we are

joined by Gary Phillips, who covers the Yankees for the New York Daily News. Hello Gary. Hey, thank you guys for having me on. I'm excited to talk about what's left of the Yankees roster. Yeah, I'm sure Yankees fans would have been more excited to hear you talk about that a week or two ago. I guess it's good that we're doing this now in the sense that it will more accurately reflect the Yankees season than it would have if we had done this say 10 days ago, but it might have been just a happier listen for Yankees fans and we will get to why, but maybe we can talk about the offseason before we get to spring training.

Juan Soto, no longer a Yankee. He was last year. That's not the way they drew it up. Obviously they wanted to keep him around. They certainly tried. What do you think ultimately made the difference to the degree that we can tell? Did the Yankees in any way blow it with Juan Soto? Could they have done anything else, realistically speaking? Or did they make the best effort anyone could have expected and

for whatever reason, he was just seduced by the team across town? They could have offered more money. They didn't. I guess that's always true. produced by the team across town. They could have offered more money. They didn't. I guess that's always true. You know, there was all this talk over the off season and there's still been some talk about the importance of family with like Steve Cohen and the Mets and I'm sure that played some sort of role. Obviously a guy wants to go where he's going to feel welcomed and comfortable and his family

is going to feel that way. There was talk over the offseason about getting suites and different allowances and issues with security guards and all that. I think if the Yankees offered the most more money than the Mets he would still be a Yankee and that's okay. There's nothing there's nothing wrong with that and I'm not even saying the Yankees were wrong for coming in last because the way it's been told is that this was blind bidding Yankees versus Mets so one side didn't know how much the other was offering and this came out to be the result you know it was five million dollars more in guaranteed money and then when you throw in the opt-out clause that the Mets gave Soto, it's a significant amount more. So I can't blame

a guy for taking the best deal, making the most money. These guys are all competitive on and off the field. So that stuff matters to them. Who's making the most money, who's got the highest contract. And that's how it played out. And I think if it was reversed, he might still be in pit strifes. Jared Ranere Do you think that they thought they were going to get him? I mean, you never know, obviously, going into free agency. It did seem clear that there probably was going to be a Steinbrenner versus Cohen bidding war for his services. They obviously, they pivoted and they made many subsequent moves and we can talk about some of those. They certainly didn't just raise the white flag on the winter or this season, but do you think that they were taken back? Do you think that they really had the inside track because of how great a season he had?

I think on one hand, if you offer somebody $760 million, you're probably going to be baffled or surprised when you don't get the guy right? But on the other hand, everybody and their mother knew like Steve Cohen was going to go to the death on this thing. So I think they knew that was always a threat. I do think as you mentioned, they had hoped that Soto's year in the Bronx was going to influence him. He seemed to love everything about being a Yankee last year from the clubhouse to the fans to you know the Dominican culture that's in the Bronx. I mean all that stuff seemed really genuine which now kind of brings me back to my answer before like he got the money he went with the team that offered him the most money of the two

finalists and that's how it played finalists. But yeah, you mentioned the pivot, the Yankees certainly didn't sit on their hands after losing Soto. You go out and get Max Freed two days later, that's a huge addition to the rotation. They doubled down then on run prevention, knowing they couldn't replace Soto's offense when they traded for Devin Williams. And then they bring in Cody Bellinger, Paul Goldschmidt. You hope that they can turn back the clock at least a little bit. I'm a little skeptical. I know they're both having very good springs. I'm skeptical overall about the lineup,

but it's not like the Yankees did nothing with the money that they were ready to give Soto. Right. So we kind of joked, I think a lot of people joked about the moneyball line, you know, recreating the aggregate and, you know, you add up the projections for the guys they got. I guess there is sort of a Soto amount of projected production there with a bunch more roster spots occupied by those players. But was that kind of the goal for them? Just as you said, well, we can't go get a bat that's as good as Juan Soto's roster spots occupied by those players. But was that kind of the goal for them? Just as you said, well, we can't go get a bat that's as good as Juan Soto's because

there aren't any really, certainly weren't any on the free agent market. So a little here, a little there. I think that's certainly what they were focused on. You also saw how bad they were defensively last year. The World Series really hammered that point home but watching the team all year I wasn't shocked to see that type of sloppy play so they've improved defensively, they've improved their pitching staff. They're gonna hope that run prevention is the answer to losing Soto. As for the hitters they brought in, like I said, I'm a little skeptical. Hal Steinbrenner a couple months ago made a comment saying that he hopes Bellinger and

Goldschmidt can make up for a great deal of Soto's offensive production. I personally think that's far-fetched. I think they're both still capable of having good seasons, but numbers-wise matching what Soto did last year is one thing. And on top of that, he brought so many intangibles as a hitter that you just can't replicate. I'm talking about the way he worked counts, the way he set up Aaron Judge to see more pitches, the way he set—he did it really for the rest of the lineup too, but especially Judge hitting behind him. There's just a different

fear factor and carefulness factor if you're an opposing pitcher facing Juan Soto in his prime than facing Cody Bellinger or Paul Goldschmidt at this stage in their careers. AMT – I don't want to put additional pressure on him with this question because I think that the weight of expectations has to have been a part of his understanding of his career pretty much since he was a teenager. But I guess one of the guys they might hope to backfill some of that offensive production is already on their roster in Jason Dominguez. Man, that was a long windup.

But here we are. We've arrived. Talk to us a little bit about the timing of his arrival last year because that inspired some amount of controversy as Yankees fans tired of Alex Verdugo and then kind of what they're expecting from him in an outfield corner this year. Last year, after weeks of public pressure, whether you want to say that's from fans or media or whatever, they finally call Jason Dominguez up in September after Alex Verdugo had like a low six something OPS since the month of May. And they say, okay, we're going to give this kid a shot. We're going to see what he can do.

Dominguez, because of Tommy John surgery and because of an oblique injury had very limited reps in the minors last year, very few at bat, very little time spent in left field which was a new position to him. He comes up, doesn't really hit, doesn't play defense well at all particularly in left field and the Yankees say okay we're gonna stick with Verdugo and he's gonna be our starter in the playoffs. You barely even see Dominguez get off the bench in the postseason. And yeah, the Yankees essentially ride it out with Verdugo until the end of the year, despite a lot of complaints basically throughout the entire second half of the season. Fast forward to now, Alex Verdugo is still a free agent. He was starting World Series

games for the Yankees. Nobody wants him it appears, not yet anyway. Dominguez meanwhile is back in left field, the plan is for him to be their left fielder. There have again been a couple gaffes so far this spring where he doesn't look necessarily all that comfortable out in left. The one thing I'll say there is if he hits the way they think he's capable, if he hits the way he did during his first cup of coffee in 23, the defense isn't going to be such an issue. Now they'll live and die with a couple misplayed balls in left field if he can be the hitter

that they believe he is going to be. That might eventually mean he's in the leadoff position. That could eventually mean he's in the middle of the order. That's where the Yankees are hoping he ends up this season. CB So explain to me how he ended up in left, other than just there not being a vacancy potentially or the circumstances in which he came up. The fact that he has had some issues in left field doesn't argue for put him in center, except for that guess you could say, well, maybe he's just having difficulty adjusting to a corner and maybe he was just a more natural fit for center. Cause when he was coming up as a prospect, he was seen as a competent

defensive center fielder, right? And so why would you want to turn that guy into a corner outfielder unless you think he can't handle center anymore? Is it just not a great fit for him in left or has his defense regressed? Not that Bellinger can't handle that position or Trent Grisham for that matter, but I just hope that this guy is going to be the future of your outfield. So I wonder why shift him over possibly prematurely. You asked a few different things there and I'll start with how we ended up here. That goes back to Soto. Soto's as great a hitter as he is, a terrible defender. The Yankees wanted him to be in right field because that's the least amount of ground that has to be covered in the

Bronx. I know Soto played left field previously in San Diego a bit. Putting Soto in right shifted Aaron Judge over to center. Having Judge in center meant that we've got Alex Verdugo to start the season in left and that's going to be the guy that Jason Dominguez is competing with at the end of the season. So Dominguez ends up in left field because Verdugo was the only bat you were going to try to replace in that outfield. As for coming up in the minors as a center fielder, yes that was always his natural position from what I've heard. I know he had a better reputation as a defensive center fielder than left fielder.

I don't know that that holds a lot of water from what I've heard. He didn't rate all that well in center either, so perhaps the Yankees look at it as center field is still the more important position even though it's incredibly spacious in left field at Yankee Stadium so let's stick him there, see what happens, hope he hits, hope he learns how to read the angles and adjusts and all that. So far it remains a work in progress. Another reason that they're going with Dominguez and left right now is because they don't want to move him back and forth. They want him to just focus on one position.

They're going to have Cody Bellinger in center this year. They feel comfortable asking him to move around and be flexible at a moment's notice, whether that means going to play first base when Paul Goldschmidt isn't there, whether that means going to play right field when Aaron Judge isn't there, they're comfortable on any given day saying, hey, Cody, go play this position for us today. They don't want to move Dominguez around. They can have Trent Krishnam come off the bench and slot into center. So that's another one of their reasons that they're using when it comes to sticking Dominguez

in left opposed to center. Whether you agree with that or want to argue whether that makes sense, that's a totally different story, but that's what they're going with. Let's shift to the infield because you mentioned the diminished defense that this team has. They project reasonably well in terms of their infield defense, at least as they're currently configured. Maybe we can talk about what the return of DJ Lemehu would mean to that. But right now they're set up to have Jazz Chisholm Jr. play second, as well as Cabrera

third and Volpi shortstop. Do you imagine that is the configuration that they will go with for the rest of the year? Is Cabrera in any danger of losing his job back to DJ Lemahue, to the kind of view that as maybe addition by subtraction. Talk to us about the infield. J.J.R. Jazz is going to play second base based on the personnel that's currently on the team. They had toyed with leaving him at third, where some of the metrics were actually pretty favorable to him last year, especially when you consider he was learning on the fly. Yeah, he didn't grade out badly.

Yeah, if you watched him on a daily basis, there were some, I guess you would call them baseball IQ mistakes that he had playing a new position, things like where to be positioned or cutoffs, relays, that kind of stuff, where I just think the Yankees were more comfortable with him at second base. I think they're also hoping that between him and Volpe, two speedy guys in the middle infield, they can cover a lot of ground. That way, as for third base, when we'll see DJ Lemahue again, I don't know. He's still shut down. He's still owed a ton of money over the next two seasons. The past few years we've seen he has not been able to be himself after injuries. So whether or not the Yankees decide they want to bite that bullet or not, midseason

I'm not sure. They were always going to roster him coming into spring training to see what he has left in the tank if anything. Perhaps that equation changes a little bit if we get to the point mid-season and Cabrera is playing well or another third baseman becomes available or the Yankees just don't like the way LeMahieu looks on a rehab assignment and says we can use the roster spot in better ways. All that remains to be seen.

As for right now, you're looking at, like you said, Osvaldo Cabrera as well as Oswald Peraza are the remaining competitors for that job. Cabrera is and should be the favorite. He hasn't been an amazing hitter by any means in the major leagues, but he has shown he's capable whereas Paraza has not over a couple different opportunities. So that's his job to lose right now. Whether or not the Yankees decide to bring in somebody else at the end of spring training, that's always a possibility.

There's always the possibility they add somebody at the deadline, of course, but based on the personnel they've got, it's Cabrera's job to lose. Let's talk about Volpe's bat. We know the glove is good, especially if you look at the stat-cast metrics, elite, which makes him a good player, even if he's a below average hitter, but he sure was a below average hitter, but he sure was a below average hitter. And there was a lot of talk this time last year about how he'd rebuilt his swing, and he was going with more of a level flat plane. And ultimately he ended up more or less in the

same place, but got there kind of differently. More contact, less power. If you look at the expected offensive stats, he was worse than he'd been as a rookie. So has he now gone back to more of the rookie approach? Do they still think that he can be a good bat guy in addition to being a good glove guy? They still have high hopes for his offensive capability. The jury is still out on it, you know, not a ton of this is obviously a pivotal season for him. Not a lot of players go through three years in the majors and then suddenly turn into a totally different type of hitter in their fourth season. The one thing that the Yankees keep pointing back to is his postseason, which obviously is a very small sample size even though it's under high stakes,

high pressure. They kept talking about last year throughout the offseason and then again this spring about how the week before the playoffs began during workouts, Volpe made some mechanical adjustments and that immediately caught Aaron Boone's eye and he told him keep doing this, this, this. He hasn't really explained in too much detail what those mechanical adjustments were. And then you look at the results in the postseason, and he had a pretty solid postseason.

His expected batting average, exit VELO, hard hit, squared up line drive, pull percentage, ground ball, soft contacts. I mean, all those numbers improved which is why I think the Yankees have hope that there's more in there. And then even if you go back to his first two regular seasons like there's been flashes of potential of offensive stardom in there whether it was hitting for power as a rookie, whether it was getting off to a really hot start last season like he has shown That he can be a good hitter the thing with Volpe that I always think about and always come back to is he has

really high but super short peaks and then the valleys last for weeks or months at a time like he's never Shown any middle ground so far, which to me is kind of perplexing. If he could ever just go halfway down the valley when things aren't so good instead of rock bottom, his numbers would be a lot more respectable over these past two years. I'm also perplexed as to why he hasn't been an on-base guy at all. In the minor leagues, he always had good on-base percentages, was always known as a patient hitter who worked counts and controlled the zone. So we haven't seen that either from him. The Yankees are hoping this is the year.

AMT – When Austin Wells was coming up, he was thought of mostly as a bat-first catcher, and then his defense really started to improve. And last year, at least by the metrics, he graded out incredibly well, and he was a respectable hitter for a catcher, you know, 13 home runs at 105 WRC+. He seems fully entrenched as the starter, but I actually want to ask about what the options are behind him because as I look at the roster resource page for the Yankees, it looks like Alex Jackson might be a load-bearing piece of this team. What's the sort of state of the catching position for New York? At this point, it seems like Alex Jackson's on the outside looking in.

He came into camp as really the only depth catching option with significant major league experience, but he's not getting starts. He's not getting a ton of at-bats. The favorites right now, and the Yankees might even carry three catchers to start the season with John Carlos Stanton hurt, the favorites right now, the favorite would be J.C. Escara, a journeyman, you know, foreign ball, Indie ball guy who they brought into the organization last season. Now, he looks like the favorite to be the backup catcher right now, and there's also a chance that Ben Rice is looks like the favorite to be the backup catcher right now and there's also a chance that Ben Rice is carried onto the opening day roster because he could DH with Stanton out, he could

play first base, and he can also still help behind the plate. The Yankees still view him as a talented and future catcher. It just might so happen that he has to move off the position because of Wells being entrenched as the starter, but those are their main options right now. Those are the guys they're looking at right now. And at this point, I'd actually be pretty surprised if they brought in anybody else to be the backup catcher. His bat did kind of crater at the end of last season Wells, that is. Was that just seen as sort of a fatigue thing more than anything else? The Yankees have talked about that a little bit. You know, Boone has reasoned that that might have something to do with it. We asked Wells about it at the start of camp and he was just like, I don't, I don't know

any better because I've never played that long of a season. So he was like, no, I'm going to say no. Um, but you know, if you're, if you're thinking about it reasonably and logically, then yeah, you know, he probably had a little wear and tear on him at the end of the season. Most catchers do at that point in the year, which is something Boone has noted a couple times. So this spring they actually had Wells come in and he wasn't taking swings during live batting practice for, I want to say, like the first week or so.

And we were asking about it, you know, is Wells hurt? Is something wrong? What's going on? And their explanation was basically just like, yeah, he was coming off an unprecedented workload for himself, a short off season, and they were going to take it slow with him. Kaitlin Luna 7 You mentioned being skeptical of a Goldschmidt bounce back. And I can understand why, but I'm curious sort of what your sense of the team's expectations are with him because he was a league average hitter last year which for

first base is a real problem but he's not that far removed from being much more productive so where do they expect he's going to kind of shake out in terms of his last couple of years of production at the plate? I think right now because Boone is self-admittedly obsessed with lineup balance, you're probably going to see him batting clean up most days. They do believe that there's still a lot left in the tank. They think, and Goldschmidt thinks this as well, that some adjustments he made in the second half last year when he had much better numbers, he thinks those can carry over and

can keep him playing at a high level this season. So we're going to see if that's true or not. One thing I will say about Goldschmidt is, yeah, last year was a career worst season for him and he was a league average hitter. That would be light years better than what the Yankees got out of Anthony Rizzo. So even if Goldschmidt's just league average again, that is an improvement for them at the position. Now, if you're talking about the lineup as a whole and you get into losing Soto and all that, that's a different story, but it's not a high bar

that Goldschmidt has to clear to be a better first baseman than what the Yankees have had. Well, we have not asked about Aaron Judge, which seems wrong, although really what is there to ask? He's kind of answered all the questions. He's the best hitter in baseball until proven otherwise, but we should probably spend a moment on him before we pivot to John Carlos Stanton and Garrett Cole in the elbows portion of this segment.

So Judge, look, I guess we could ask about October, but I don't want to make too much of it. Did that get him down? Did that motivate him more? Is he sorry that Juan Soto will not be sharing a lineup with him now? Did he feel like that helped his performance? Not that he was bad when he was basically a one man lineup

in previous years. And then I guess getting out of center field, which he handled ably, but one would think that it'll be a little easier on him in a corner. And who knows if that helps him somehow at the plate, not that he could be better than he's been seemingly. So yeah, what's the state of Aaron Judge? Are there any causes for concern slash new reasons for optimism? I would say no to both. You know, you mentioned the postseason. I know that's something that's still certainly lingering with him. He's obviously not happy about the way last October or his

last several Octobers have gone, really. As for missing Juan Soto, he talked frequently last year about how helpful it was to have Soto in front of him. I mentioned Soto's ability to work counts and get more opportunities to look at pitches. That was something that Judge talked about and really valued, being able to watch Soto's at bats from the on-deck circle. That said, he's put up MVP numbers without Juan Soto in the lineup before you go back to 2022. Even in 2023, around the toe injury, he looked like he was going to have an MVP caliber season if he had played an entire year so I wouldn't be concerned at all about judges offensive performance with or without Juan Soto if he's healthy he's gonna

rake as for right field I do think that is a better fit for him you know the metrics were not kind to him in center at all last year I do think there were probably some instances where he prioritized taking care of his body, maybe not going 100% on a ball in the gap or something that he might have had to die for just because of his injury history, particularly the toe injury in 2023 that resulted from an all out type of play. So not great metrics in center. I do think though, right field is going to be a better fit for him. He's played gold glove caliber defense there in the past. Well, John Carlos Stanton's right field days are far behind him, but the question now is

what about his DH days? So what is the state of Stanton's elbows, plural. How did this befall him? What caused it? Does anyone know? And what is the outlook? So, when asked what caused it, Stanton basically just said some bad adjustments and didn't give much of an explanation beyond that. He's been dealing with these elbow issues dating back to last season. He said he was actually dealing with them for most of last season after, you know, Aaron Boone and Brian Cashman had said it was late last season. He said the elbows began hurting two months apart. There's been some speculation or some theories that because Stanton swings harder than anybody

else and swings so violently that that might be causing this wearing tear. But as for what's next, no one's too sure yet. He's gotten three rounds of PRP injections already for his elbows, he's gonna start the year on the IL, he's out indefinitely. The Yankees have said if surgery is required he's gonna miss the year. There was also a report yesterday in the New York Post that he's also dealing with a chronic calf injury. So when we're going to see Giancarlo Stanton again, is anybody's guess?

I'm just kind of amazed that with his elbows being as bad as they are, he was able to do what he did last October. I don't want to make Yankees fans contemplate the prospect of more injuries on the position player side because I feel like we've already gotten them down pretty low. But in the event that there is further injury here, who among their players in the high minors do you imagine we might see this year? Who are the reinforcements that might come up from the farm? Well, I mentioned Ben Rice as somebody who may or may not make the opening day roster. Whether he does or not, the Yankees really like his bat.

They believe he's going to be a quality major league hitter and somebody even who could be a middle of the order hitter. You also saw Everson Pereira get talked up a lot in spring training. He was a top prospect for them a couple years ago. He debuted in 2023 along with Dominguez and Austin Wells and a couple other youngsters. He had a good spring. They've talked about him being possibly a right-handed DH option. He's coming off his own UCL surgery, so he's currently just playing.

He's currently just DHing. He's not back in the outfield, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's a guy who gets another opportunity. Beyond that, you know, it's more on the pitching side, I would say. I'm actually working on a piece right now for tomorrow's spring breakout game. That's a repeat of a story I did last year where I basically surveyed a bunch of Yankees coaches and front office personnel and asked them which under the radar spring breakout players they're most interested in watching. The name that I got the most was Eric Raselman,

a flame throwing reliever that they've got. He's got a fastball that can reach 99 miles per hour. I wouldn't be surprised if you see him in the bullpen at some point this year. So that's one maybe under the radar guy to keep an eye out for. Well, sticking with the theme of elbow injuries, we've got to get there eventually. We might as well now. Garrett Cole, not only the Tommy John, also the internal brace repair, just two for one,

you know, just strengthen that TJ. Unfortunately, it's not internal brace the way that, you know, if you get the standalone internal brace, that means you might come back quicker. That's not the case here, it sounds like. But do we know what caused this sprung for Cole? Was it a completely new injury that he just suffered this spring? Was it at all related to what befell him early last year? I guess with a pitcher and an elbow, it's all kind of related. But was this something that was bothering him at all? And then it just came back with a vengeance when he ramped up or how did this happen to the degree that anyone really knows? Yeah, the Yankees and Cole have talked about it. Like he came back last year. He cleared the elbow inflammation kind of like you said, you know elbow injuries. It's hard not to connect the dots.

elbow injury is it's hard not to connect the dots. Now with Cole there are also a couple of instances that I would say in retrospect were warning signs. You know you start with that elbow inflammation injury last season. You know he comes back there were times where he was struggling with velocity where he didn't or he was struggling with command didn't totally look like himself even though he finished the year strong. Then you get to the World Series, he throws 88 pitches in game one and Aaron Boone pulls him. Boone got criticized for pulling him at 88 pitches. When we asked Aaron the next day about the move, he just kept saying Garrett was done. Garrett was done, done, done. He kept repeating himself. Finally we were like, why? And he said, you'll have to trust me. So that was, that was a weird thing. Then, then you have that

little mini opt out saga where Cole says he's going to test free agency. If the Yankees don't give him that extra year in the contract, the Yankees say, we're not going to do that. And Cole says, oh, I'm actually going to stay here on the original terms of the deal. That has to make one wonder like Okay, did he not want a whole bunch of other teams checking out his medicals was he? Pretty certain that he wasn't gonna be able to match that money as a free agent all those things I think have to come to mind when you now see that he's out for the entire 2025 season and then some you, he did come to spring training

saying he felt great. He actually started throwing his throwing program in the offseason sooner than he had in earlier seasons just because he wanted to keep his arm live. He felt that was the best approach after a mid-season ramp up last year. So on one hand, I don't necessarily think that the Yankees saw it coming the way that it played out. On the other hand, I think you look at all those things that I just mentioned and it's like, yeah, there was maybe a little foreshadowing here.

Well, let's stick with pitcher injuries, but hopefully offer Yankees fans a more positive answer. It's easy for it to be better than going to miss the entire season from your top of the rotation guy. But what is the timetable for Luis Heal's return and what is going on with JT Brubaker and his broken ribs? So with Brubaker, last I've heard he's shut down, his ribs remain broken. He was a guy who would have been in prime position for a depth rotation spot at this point in the spring with everything else that's gone on had he stayed healthy.

I mean, that was a freak accident. He was actually trying to get out of the way of a comebacker, which he did unsuccessfully. That probably just left a little bruise and would have been something he could have gotten over quickly. Instead, he falls on his side and breaks the ribs. So not sure when we'll see him again. And then as for Louis Heel, the Yankees are hoping that he can be back in the summertime. They're saying at least three months. At the time of the injury, it was six weeks no throw. So typically you double that for a starting

pitcher. Maybe we're looking at sometime in June, if all goes well. Well, I guess Marcus Stroman gets his wish. He gets to be a starting pitcher. Which is why I found it so weird that he was so insistent when he reported to camp, like, I'm not pitching in the bullpen. So often we see these things play out exactly as they have. There was no need for him to be so definitive and so insistent. I know he's blamed my profession for creating a story out of it, but there was really no reason for him to be so insistent because odds are at least one guy was going to get hurt.

CB You can usually kind of take that to the bank in spring training. If you're the number six guy on the rotation depth chart and you stay healthy, I like your odds to get some starts. So Max Reed is the new top of the rotation pitcher and you could even have argued that in terms of projected performance, maybe he already was even with a healthy Garrett Cole, he's quite good. So what made him the guy that the Yankees decided after Juan Soto didn't take their money? They said, well, we have a whole lot to spend and we're going to give a whole lot of it over a lot of years to Max Fried. The Yankees had already been doing Zooms with some

of their plan B options even before Soto made his decision. They wanted to have contingencies in place. So that included Zooms with Blake Snell, Corbin Burns, and Max Fried. The way the Yankees tell it, they really just fell in love with Fried during their Zoom and vice versa. They said he was incredibly engaging, asked a lot of questions. Aaron Boone actually went into the meeting thinking, you know, he might be a little reserved and not the guy for the New York spotlight. And he was just blown away by how engaged and curious and what a sponge Fried was on the call. Sounds so much better than most of my Zoom calls, I gotta say. Yeah, yeah, I can relate to that as well.

No one gives me a lot of money after them and I don't know that they're as impressed by me or me by them. This must have been an incredible call. I think it also played a small factor that Omar Manaya was on the call. Omar was in the Padres organization when they drafted Freed several years ago. So I'm actually, whenever Freed makes his debut, which I guess now is going to look like the second game of the season, I'll have a story ready then on kind of just their relationship and how having a little bit of a familiar face on

that call just made Freed feel welcomed and yeah, he's clicked with everybody in camp this year it seems. I mean, from Matt Blake to Garrett Cole to guest instructors like Andy Pettit and Roger Clemens, he really has been the sponge that, boom, talked about him being on that Zoom call. So it's been cool to see that actually from my own eyes. Karla Shrodon's 2024 was certainly better than his 2023. So that's progress, but maybe not quite as good as Yankees fans were hoping when he signed. So what are your expectations for him in 2025? It doesn't look like spring has been

super easy, but what does a spring ERA really mean? Yeah, not much. I tend not to make too big a deal over spring stats, as I would recommend most people do the same. Last year, one thing that flew under the radar with Rodin was he made 32 starts. He was injured so many times, unavailable so often his first season as a Yankee. And that was really a frequent talking point. I mean, not only that he wasn't pitching well, but it was like he's never pitching at all. Why did we pay this guy all this money? That's what fans were saying. Nobody really seemed to make a big deal over him getting to 32 starts And I think he led the team the rotation in innings pitch. Yep. He did. I'm checking that now

Those were important boxes for him to check last year this year I think you got to have a higher bar with Cole out Can he get that ERA down? Can he get his? Average innings per start up, you know, he's really become a five inning pitcher I think they're gonna need a little more from him on a regular basis now that You don't have Cole anchoring the rotation. We'll see if he's able to do that. I'm not sure. You know, one thing he did last year was continue to tweak and fiddle with expanding his arsenal and his attack plans.

We'll see if he continues to make adjustments along those lines this year. Maybe if he does, that helps him go longer in games and keep batters guessing and it gets the ERA down, but we'll see. Hostage One guy who didn't make quite that many starts but was very effective over the starts that he did make was Clark Schmidt. So talk to us about his season, what they're expecting from him this year and sort of what is his state because obviously he had injury stuff he had to deal with last year, but when he was able to take them out, it was very effective for them.

Yeah, the Yankees are very high on Schmidt. And last year you got a glimpse as to why. You even saw it at the end of 2023, or rather the middle of 2023. That season was his first as a full-time starter, and he was pretty awful out of the gate and then he had a stretch in the middle of the year where he was actually statistically one of the best pitchers in baseball. He came a little back down to earth at toward the end of the season you know you could attribute that to being gassed or the workload whatever you want but they've been high on him now for the last couple years they believe over the course of 32 starts he can be a top

of the rotation type pitcher. The question is can he get to 30 plus starts? That's been a challenge for him. He's had a tough time staying healthy not only as a major leaguer but a minor leaguer and going back to college. It just seems like there's always something even if it's on the smaller side, that takes out a chunk of his year. This spring, he dealt with a cranky back a couple weeks ago. He's back from that now. We'll see where he slots in to the rotation, the opening season rotation.

The initial plan was for him to start the sixth game of the year just because he had been delayed a little bit. I'm not sure if that's going to change now that Cole is on the shelf. And I guess we should also talk about Will Warren. There's a little less maybe starting depth than there was when Nester Cortez was around. Not that you mind having Devin Williams, but in retrospect innings helpful. But tell us a little bit about Warren, why he gives them confidence that he can fill this hole, and if he doesn't, who's next? It's a good transition because Boone's repeatedly said that Warren reminds him of Schmidt in just their demeanor, their confidence, their approach.

Boone likes to talk all the time about how Schmidt was super super super confident even when he wasn't good. So I think the Yankees saw some of that in Warren last year as he struggled through his first cup of big league coffee. This spring he's looked excellent, his stuff has never been a problem, that remains super sharp. He's trying to revive his curveball, which he stopped throwing midway through the 2023 season because it was messing with his arm angles on his other pitches. He's now found a way to incorporate that,

so that is not happening. He's expanded his arsenal. He's looked really sharp. I would say he's the front runner now for Cole's vacated rotation spot. They've also got Carlos Carrasco in camp on a non-roster contract, so I'm not sure what his opt-out deadline is. I've been trying to nail that down, actually.

Maybe that would influence who gets that final rotation spot or not, but even so, I would think Warren is the favorite. He's just been that good this spring. And I don't want to make Yankees fans contemplate further injury to that rotation, but in the event that one of these guys goes down and Carrasco ops out, what are the depth options down at AAA? There's not many. Yeah. There's not many. I mean they've got Alan Winans in camp right now, another non-roster invitee. He was a starter in the Brave system from a chunk of his minor league career. Brent Hedrick filled the same role in the twin system coming up through the minors. So those are some options. I wouldn't call them great

or exciting or inspiring by any means. Chase Hampton, top pitching prospect, was somebody that maybe they would have turned to in an emergency, but he's also out for the season with Tommy John surgery, so he's no longer available. They might have to add a couple veteran type guys that they can send to the minors when rosters start getting cut at the end of spring training. They might need to add some depth there because they've even taken some pitching prospects like Clayton Beter and Yonjé Gomez who were starters and said, no, you're just a reliever now. So in some ways there's just, I mean, they've cut into their own depth a little bit.

Yeah. Given these questions, do you expect them to be aggressive when it comes to upgrading? I guess that's sort of a silly question because we are talking about the New York Yankees here, but you know, in some respects they're a little less aggressive than they once were. But send the Alcantara, right? If you figure, okay, he's going to go somewhere at some point in the first half of the season, or even if it's a smaller upgrade or replacement, like I don't know what JD Martinez or someone to replace Stanton, like do you think that they're going to be looking ASAP to make moves here? Or are they going to play it safe, play it conservative and

see what they have and what's left before they try to do anything? So they'd like a right-handed hitter, whether that's an upgrade at third base or somebody that can, you know, platoon at the DH spot while Stanton's out. I'm not sure. They have, as you know, been pretty reluctant to add any significant payroll. So I'm not sure how you bring in a notable name and do that unless you are dumping somebody like Stroman, you know, portion of Stroman salary or maybe Trent Christian who's making five million dollars.

But those guys are now in positions where they're kind of needed based on the other injuries and happenings in camp this spring. So it's kind of tough to cut that bait. As for pitching, Brian Cashman talked the other day to reporters in Tampa, basically said, I really like what Will Warren's done, I like what Carrasco has done, you know, we'll check and see what's going on externally, but typically this time of year there's not much. Oh and also the luxury tax penalties are gonna make things difficult. So I think he kind of set expectations low there I'm sure intentionally. I wouldn't be shocked if they brought in some upgrades. I would say more likely before the trade deadline than before opening day, but you never know.

Let's talk about the bullpen because we've got some new faces here or some relatively new faces. Obviously they have Devin Williams now, they brought back Tim Hill, they traded for Fernando Cruz, they have Brent Hedrick, they have Luke Weaver returning, Ian Hamilton, Mark Leiter Jr., Gomez. Talk to us about how they're piecing things together leading up to Williams and what, I was going to say, what they saw in him to make them want to jettison Nester Cortez, but that's sort of silly, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I think going back to run prevention, like we were talking earlier, their hope is they can cut games down to seven innings with Weaver returning to that multi-inning fireman role,

and then you bring in Williams to close things out. Weaver was as dominant as any set-up man in baseball last year before he shifted to the closers role at the end of the season, and more often than not, he was going more than one inning. So that's a really valuable weapon to have, and then you throw the best closer in the game on top of that. They're in a really good position at the end of the ball at the end of ballgames. They brought back Tim Hill who was absolutely excellent for them last year after coming over from the White Sox and struggling with them. You've got Ian Hamilton like you say you know he's a guy that two years ago

was really in Aaron Boone's circle of trust. Last year wasn't as sharp. You've got Mark Leiter Jr. that they're hoping can be more like the guy they acquired from the Cubs, opposed to the guy who came over here and couldn't keep runs off the board. And then there's a couple other names to look out for, some that you mentioned. There's also Jake Cousins, who's dealing with a forearm injury. He's not going to be ready for the start of the season. There's Jonathan Loisica, who is coming back from surgery, but probably won't be ready for, you know, another month plus, maybe more. When healthy, he was one of the most electric relievers in baseball going back a couple years ago, but that's just been something he's struggled

to do. At the same time, their depth has taken a little bit of a hit in the bullpen as well. Clayton Beter dealt with a shoulder issue over the off season. He's not going to be ready for opening day. I mentioned Cousins reporting to camp with an injury. Scott Efros, who's been through injury hell the last couple of years, has a new hamstring issue. So I think they're in okay position right now, but their depth in the bullpen's already being tested as well.

I say bring back David Robertson. Let's get a Robertson reunion in here. Yeah. That would warm my heart. Wouldn't be the first time, right? So Devin Williams, can we credit him solely with doing away with the anti-beard policy, the beard ban? How much credit should he get for that?

And also, how her suit do you think the Yankees are going to get this year? Are we going to see players really testing the limits here of well-groomed, are guys already growing beards? Is there still going to be some institutional resistance and reluctance to get really hairy here? So I'm on my little break right now from spring training. I'm home. I go back down on Tuesday.

When I left, several days after the new policy was implemented, I was home. I go back down on Tuesday. When I left several days after the new policy was implemented, I was starting to see some scruff already develop as I've been watching games and seeing videos and photos on Twitter and TV. I am noticing more and more scruffy Yankees. I keep doing double takes and going, wait a second, you're not supposed to be wearing that hat with that facial hair. And then I have to remind myself that things are different now. As for who gets the credit, I think Williams gets a lot of it, if not all of it. Hal Steinbrenner made it a point to repeatedly say that he had conversations with multiple

people, multiple players, people even inside, you know, outside of his organization in baseball, outside of his organization just in the world, in business. But Devin Williams went to them and said this wasn't something that he liked and he clearly was not happy with it the first couple of times we talked to him in spring training. You could just tell even during casual conversations that weren't scrums or interviews or anything like that, you could tell he didn't love this policy and he didn't love that there was attention around it. He didn't love that he had to be adhering to it. He did say he would have complied if that was what the policy was and there wouldn't have been an issue,

but then after the policy got changed, he also said it was something he would have complied if that was what the policy was and there wouldn't have been an issue But then after the policy got changed He also said it was something he would have considered in free agency this coming winter when he's set to hit the open market so you heard how Steinbrenner talk about how He was worried the policy has and could in the future Hinder them from acquiring and retaining talent, there's Devin Williams saying like, yeah, this would have been something to think about. I'm curious what the current vibe around Brian Cashman is, because I'm always struck when I talk to Yankees fans about how much they seem to dislike Brian Cashman, despite the

fact that their team, I know they didn't win, but we're just in the World Series. They do have Aaron Judge, and yet he seems to engender a great deal of consternation that he's not doing enough, the team is resting on their laurels, which is a little silly given the amount of offseason activity they had, even if they weren't able to get Soto back. So what is your sense of how the organization feels about Cashman, particularly, I guess, the ownership group? And then is he facing any sort of wobbly chair? Is his seat at all warm? I know that he has two more years left on his current contract, but what is the state of things

with Cashman? Yeah. I mean, Cashman's sitting on as sturdy a chair as there is in baseball. I mean, I think he has this job for as long as he wants it, and even after that maybe he goes and remains with the organization in some advisory role and mentors the next GM and handpicks them and all that. I mean, Yankees fans, I know there's a large segment of the fan base that wants someone fresh, someone new, is tired of him in that position, get past it. I mean, it's not happening.

I would just be absolutely stunned if Eden see the contract through and go out on his own terms. I'd be shocked. That said, I certainly understand some of the gripes from Yankees fans. They've been conditioned to believe the company motto, and the company motto has always been it's World Series or bust. I think they look at a championship drought that dates back to 2009, and they look at some off seasons where even though money was spent, even though there was a lot of activity, they go into

the following season with obvious holes on the roster. Right now, it's third base. We've known this was a problem since last summer when they acquired Chisholm and said, hey, you play third base now. you know, it was left field before that You know that was a revolving door last year where they basically did the same thing with Isaiah kind of a left Hey, you play left field now. Um, you know, so I think Yankees fans are a little frustrated that they keep hearing it's World Series or bust, World Series or bust,

and then they go into each season with a obvious, obvious hole on the roster while at the same time hoping, you know, one, two, three, four other things just break in their favor. That's not to say that the Yankees are not a good team. That's not to say that they haven't fielded contenders throughout really the entire duration of Cashman's tenure. It's not to say he's done a bad job, but I do understand where the frustration is coming from. And I think it's partly the Yankees' responsibility

because they have conditioned their fans to think and feel like this. It's funny you mentioned an advisory role and you also mentioned Omar Manaya earlier. Cashman just kind of collects GMs who probably fired Joe Morgan made fun of in 2005. It's like Omar Manaya, Jim Hendry, Brian Sabian, just you know who was a mentor for him, obviously, when he was much younger. But he just surrounds himself with these sort of old school scouting types, you know, just trying to beat the allegations that he's all about stats and nothing else. But I did want to ask also about the other guy Yankees fans are perpetually mad at, the other guy who sort of symbolizes the lack of accountability in many Yankees fans minds

and who also is under contract for the next couple years because he just got an extension. That's Aaron Boone. So why is Cashman so comfortable working with Boone? What does the organization value? And I guess same sort of question about taking the pulse, taking the temperature of the fan base when it comes to Boone. Just like Catherine, he's not going anywhere. He's just got an extension that Yankees fans need to let that both those ships sail. I'm sure they will. When they hear this, they'll say, all right, fine.

Yes, I'm sure I'm convincing all of them and nobody will complain about either of them moving forward after this podcast is released and it'll all be sunshine and rainbows. But as far as what the organization values about him, it's definitely his clubhouse leadership. And you hear players talk about it as well. The Yankees have a lot of stars, a lot of egos in their clubhouse. They always seem to have a good clubhouse culture and Boone gets a lot of credit for that. You know, his players will defend

him non-stop when you ask about him and the job that he's doing. I mean, I don't know that I've heard a player say anything bad about Boone during his tenure. So I do think that goes a long way as far as just what a manager's job is in today's game, in the modern game. I know he gets criticized for some of his in-game decisions, some of his lineup decisions. I think the Yankees and I think a lot of teams in general just that they view that as secondary at this point. And the Yankees are just really pleased and happy with the way he goes about his business, the way he conducts the locker room,

the way he handles himself in front of the media. That's all first and foremost. All right. Well, our final question is always what would constitute success for this team this season? Now we're talking about the Yankees, who as you said, they're the original World Series or Bust organization. So the answer to that is kind of always gonna be similar for them, I suppose. But beyond that, knowing that only one team

can actually win the World Series, is there anything else that Yankees fans should be looking at or that the organization should be self-evaluating when it comes to whether this season goes well? I mean, yeah, it's World Series or bust with them. I mean, that's what they say is the goal every year. So I don't think you can shortchange them when they fall short. That said, I could see this season playing out in a number of ways. I still think they're one of the better teams in the American League. I think

a few things could break in their favor where they're the best team in the American League. I could also see them having a tough time in their own division, you know, with Baltimore still being as young as they are and the Red Sox making some improvements. I don't have a prediction for how this season is going to go just because there's so many variables between their rivals, one of their rivals getting better between all the injuries that they're dealing with, between their reliance on a bunch of really young, unproven hitters and then also on the flip side, some aging guys who haven't been that consistent recently.

I'm not sure. I'm not sure how this year is going to go. I don't have a confident prediction to give you that, like, oh yeah, the Yankees are going to be right here at the end of the year. I just don't at this point. Yeah, whatever you would have said two weeks ago probably has changed since then, so who knows how it'll change in the next couple weeks. But yeah, we know what they will say at the end, at least one way or another.

So we have enjoyed having you here to say many things to us today, and we encourage everyone to read your work at the Daily News. Gary Phillips, thank you very much for making your effectively wild debut and helping us wrap up this season preview series. Ah, well thanks for having me on guys, it was fun. 29 down, one to go. Back in a moment to see this season preview series through with James Fegan on the White Sox. Well, we're calling in the closer. To drive a stake through the heart of this season preview

series. We are joined by James Fieggen, who despite all that transpired last season and possibly against the advice of his doctors, continues to cover the White Sox for the fine website Socks Machine. Welcome back, James. What order were these previews done in? Yeah, it goes in either ascending or descending order of projected win totals for the second team in these pods.

So I guess I'll let you do the math on that one. And I wish I could say last but not least, but that doesn't really apply here. It applies to our guest to be clear, but not to the but that doesn't really apply here. It applies to our guest, to be clear, but not to the team he's talking about. The White Sox are last in this series because they are least in the projections, albeit barely. And they are projected to win about 20 more games

than they did last year. So I guess the motto for the 2025 White Sox could be, it can't be worse. Or, you know, maybe I should put that in the form of a question because of the top seven players on the 2024 White Sox World Leaderboard, such as it was, only one is still with the team.

And it's not because they signed so many great players this winter. And actually the fan grass projection for the 2025 White Sox is actually four wins worse than it was for the 2024 White Sox at this time last year. So first question, it can't be worse, right? I don't think so. Unlike a existential like wrath of a higher power

type of level, I just don't think that's like the level of everything going wrong can really happen again in our lifetimes. I realize we hear like, oh, it's a 300 year flood on the local news every like two years now. And then things are accelerating and maybe rebuilds will just dysfunction and levels never foreseen in the sport. But I think there's in terms of like injury, underperformance, bad luck, turnover. I don't know if the same thing can happen again, even if they roll out a team

that's the exact same talent level, which many might argue they have. Right, I guess that's another way to ask that because the White Sox last year were nine wins worse than their base runs record. And they did have a lot of bad luck just in terms of what happened in the games and then also injuries and everything else. So I guess the question is true talent wise, are they better going into the season than they were going into this season than they were going into last season. Not by what we know at the moment, I guess. Like ultimately, the kind of last gas window to really see, like,

how close could the core of Yaman Kata and Eloy Menez and effectively, Lewis Robert as well, like, return to their, like what we thought was their baselines based off Prospect Pedigree and, you know, production from 2021, 2020. Turned out to not be very worth that much, but our perception of it at the end of that spring was probably a bit more than, you know, what some unknown little turnover projects

could turn out to be. But I would say like, based on what we know, like Shane Smith looks awesome, but I think we're gonna value what he is and what we project him to be off the idea that he's a rule five pick who hasn't thrown 100 innings in a season. So we've never seen him sit 98 for a while.

So how much value we could project to that. Maybe that winds up being like performing like a backend mid rotation starter for effectively a full season, but it'd be kind of foolish to project that now. So right now it looks like really probably less high upside projects that they had on the roster than last year. I want to ask, maybe this is the same question just put a different way, but I am curious what your sense is of like how far off of their internal expectation was last year.

And I imagine that the answer to that question might be like significantly because they only won 41 games. But you know, in terms of this team's sort of expectations for itself, where do they sit? Like, what did they understand themselves to be? So to put an amount on it, I think they probably thought they could lose 110 games last year. I think they expect to be the worst team in the league. I think they expect to get hammered.

I think they expected to trade off anybody who was playing that well at the deadline and thus produce a pretty hellacious final two months instead of their best week of the year happening in the finals week of the season. But it's not the message that they give to the fans a lot, but the number one word they use for how they described last season rather than like, oh, this is so embarrassing. So sorry that we stay in the franchise forever with this. It was very clarifying. We thought it was pretty bad, but we found out more specific information about like how much this needed to be fixed or this needed to be addressed. So it fuels into obviously

a little bit of like shielding the current leadership from the blame. And I think that has to be captured in, but it fills a little bit into like, oh, well this, it served to justify how much we needed to hire a director of hitting and buy a trajectory machine or why we needed to overhaul international scouting and get a new facility and so forth. Because of that, even lengthening the runway for how far they think it will take to really be a productive team. They're still talking like a team that expects to be last place and sell things off to the deadline and probably be one of the three worst teams

if not the worst team this year. But a little bit of a surprise of last year, not that they expected last year we could by any means, maybe it's just more about them speaking to clarity about what the timeline and what really needs to be done and how long it might take this year. So what was on the agenda for this off season

and did they accomplish everything they hoped to? Obviously, their crochet trade is a big one. There were rumors about some advanced talks for a Luis Robert trades that didn't come to fruition. So was that just those guys got to go or was it only if the right deal comes along, there's always the 2025 trade deadline and then I guess we can get into actual upgrades that they made such as they were.

They, they talk is about the right deal coming along and obviously that's holding true for Robert. And I think with Robert is exceptionally a case where like, I think the value is so low right now and the window of control is long enough that there's no real reason to like effectively sell or low at the moment because the value of like, I don't think it's reasonably going to go down from here. Crochet as much as is waiting for the right deal and obviously they bypass last deadline

and talked about like, oh, we traded still in season spring, we could do that again with crochet or even mid season, the year and a half would still be a lot if you really pitch as well. I think they definitely want it to happen this off season. I think that was the cleanest for both not avoiding some of the chaos of doing it mid spring. And also this was kind of the value into where it was going to spike.

So yeah, it happened quickly because Boston up their offer and all these things that were specific to the deal that got done. But yeah, I think it kind of had to happen now. I think that was the big thing to do this off season. And otherwise, as far as additions, they've been very active on the waiver wire. They haven't signed a free agent who is making more than 5 million annually. And even Martin Perez, I think he's getting like 3.5 this year and then like 1.5 is a

buyout of a mutual option next year. But they certainly signed a lot of free agents. If you're going to buy Keystone and bring it to the party, you don't bring a six pack, you bring a 30. And the White Tex, there are a lot of dudes in camp. It's all about quantity, not quality. I guess let's stick with Robert for a second because obviously he had the injury last year. How much of his underperformance last year do you attribute to health related stuff versus something else? Is there anything that they have kind of given him to work on this off season? Because this seems like a place where, as perverse as it might

be for fans, like the team and the player are directionally aligned. He probably wants to get better so that he can get off of the White Sox, and the White Sox want him to get better so that they can trade him for guys who will be there for their next good team. So give us the sort of state of the union as it pertains to him. I don't think he wants out for like the organization's sake necessarily. Like at least speaks to like it'd be great to play here the whole time. I think he knows the situation and knows that he's gone and thus like would prefer that anxiety of that to be resolved rather than lingering more than it's like, I hate the

colors black and white and I long to wear more bright, vivid, you know what I'm saying. Anyway, the injury obviously, you can't explain away all the ways he struggled with just the injury because he at least claimed to be healthy a lot afterwards. And I think a lot of the ways in which he struggled, just, you know, this is a guy who's swinging missed in the zone a lot, who's chased a lot and he struggled for those reasons. So it's not like he was totally alien to any previous version of Luis Robert that we saw, the way that he struggled. It's more than just the second half of last year that he's kind of more punished just

hangers in the zone, more than really turning around a lot of fastballs. A lot of his damage seems to come on off speed. Maybe that's a little bit of the initiative that everything around him has been about cutting chase and trying to pare back his aggressiveness. He felt that was a little bit of something that was in his head that led him to not perform against Velocity of the Zone, even as well as he had in the past, even if he's always been a guy who capitalizes on your mistake while you're trying to spam him breaking balls over and over again.

Some of that he, you know, when people around him have attributed to, yeah, the team was really bad around him that wasn't good for him. You know, he's kind of this aggressive hitter. He already, to add into his mind that he needs to like carry the offense is not good. And to put him in a position where he's kind of, you know, a chase happy mistake hitter, to have him be the guy that the often guy that the pitching plan is built around every night, probably not great for his production

either. If he was the seven hitter in the Dodgers, he's probably doing a lot of work because he just got to throw strikes at that point to survive. So I think it's kind of a sum of a lot of things. And especially in terms of the approach issue stuff, you could see it resolving by just playing for a better offense, which is obviously something he can only really accelerate by hitting well here. Well, we will talk about the 2025 team, but I imagine most White Sox fans listening, if they are still listening, probably want to hear about the teams beyond that and the players

who will be on them. And maybe one way we could ask about that is to talk about the returns that they've gotten in the many trades that they've made, whether it was the crochet trade this winter or last year's deadline or even the previous year. Have they at least done well and gotten a good haul because most of the farm system rankings have them at least somewhere in the top five,

which you would hope they would be given how bad they've been at the big league level and given how many guys they've shipped out. But that at least would be something encouraging, if you could say. Yeah, they've totally torn it down, but at least they've done well and can give you some hope that they'll be able to build it back up. The reviews are better. The Seas trade was like the first big one they pulled off and it was like, all right, kind of weird that clearly weren't able to get bats the way they wanted. And that was something they even said afterwards, that it was a struggle to get like position player prospects in the deal. And that there was some view that teams just didn't rely on CIS as like a true like top two starter in the rotation. Kind of a consistent thread with some of their trades has been like, hey, you know, teams didn't value this guy quite the way we did. But, you know, that was really what

came out as the kind of response to the Eric Fetty deal, which obviously got really poor responses across the industry. Yeah, I would say probably worse reactions than the C-Strade did by significant measure. And obviously Miguel Vargas coming and then hitting like 120 with the White Sox as being the headliner of the deal wasn't great to as much as we need multiple years to judge it. First impressions are do matter, they linger a little bit. And also becoming a meme for looking so sad. Right. So with Vargas struggling and then the two other guys being like in low A and one of them, Alexander Obertis not playing after the trade because he was dealing with a you know a leg injury Sounds worse as I run it all off the general response. I got a lot across the industry Was a lot better for the crochet trade

There was a consensus that got a lot of major league is back You know the question is whether there's star power Braden Montgomery is kind of you know the wild card of that because there's no pro Experience and there's you know swinging and there's swing and miss issues. Swing and miss issues, not swing and miss issues. I like that. On top of what otherwise would be like a star level tool set if the hit tool allows it to play. So, Kyle Teal is this very like 10 year major league catcher.

Is it just kind of a league average bat and a steady reliable catcher or is it a bit more? It's a question. Maybe there's not the best player on a championship team in this return, but there's a lot of guys, Chase Miedroth is competing in camp to make the team right now and Michael McIntyre is an arm, Brian Bannister is excited about and thinks there's some arm angle things to change that would get him to pop. So there's at least a lot of like operating logic behind it that you can get behind a bit more.

There's some debate like, was this really a lot better than Aiden Curry and Justin Crawford as the deadline from the Phillies before it? But I don't think there's a, there wasn't a, what are they doing type of skepticism the way there was around the first two deals, certainly the second. So a bit of a recovery and certainly they're talking about all the changes to their organization. Seemingly each one is them a little bit farther in their evolution about determining their process and having their new pro scouting operation in place and a lot more influence

from R&D and whatnot. They should be getting better at this and this tradeically suggests that they are. Well, and it's interesting too, because it's sort of all of it combined with their guys already in the minors who are viewed as sort of high upside contribute as a core piece of the next good White Sox team are close. Like these, not, you know, not Braden Montgomery, he's still far away. But a lot of these guys, when you think about how they're going to be sequenced, like we could see some of them this year or next. So when do you think they're going to start the clock on some of the guys they acquired,

but also guys like Colson Montgomery? Cause, you know, I thought they're going to start the clock on Colson a little bit sooner than apparently they're going to since they optioned him a couple days ago, but he's someone they're still kind of pegging to play the majority of the season in the majors. So that would start it now. Brian Ramos is someone who's probably going to start the year on the IL and someone who's placing their core, especially if they're kind of giving third base to Miguel Vargas

this year as a kind of a proof you can do it if we if they're kind of giving third base to Miguel Vargas this year as a, you know, kind of a prove you can do it if we give you this kind of unfettered opportunity season. I don't really know what he fits in. And then after that, figuring out the position outside of catcher where I would think both Teal and, Kyle Teal and Edgar Carra both debut this season. It's still kind of filling out.

Like Jacob Gonzalez kind of ended up and down, uh, season last year offensively. So I think it's too uncertain to even like Pegas ETA rather than anything. George Walcott is who knows what's going to happen. Like the endless mystery of possibilities there kind of as part of the appeal. So it definitely doesn't come with like a set ETA. There was no good reviews of like how Caleb Bonamer, their second round pick looked in Bridge League,

but that's a 19 year old who hasn't played a professional game either. So as far as like, there's pieces of the positional core of like what would make this offense watchable and certainly in Coleson, Montgomery, like who is going to hit the home runs? Would he be the answer to that? They would acknowledge themselves,

like they don't have like their full positional core in. And it's certainly, it's not set up as this for sure wave of what's going to follow like Montgomery, the catchers, and ideally Brian Ramos playing some sort of role. I think it's kind of half figured at this point after the current crop. Well, there is a new manager in town, Will Venable, and that's the end of the Pedro Grafol White Sox experience, which sure was one. And look, he didn't have much to work with, obviously, but he certainly became quotable in ways

that maybe weren't ideal at times. So we'll find out whether Will Venable is someone who will want to watch a total eclipse of the sun or whether he's grinding too hard to spare time for that. But- I think about that all the time. Me too. I think about him opting out of seeing the eclipse

all the time. Well, it clearly paid dividends at the time when he wasn't watching the eclipse. I definitely think Venable watches the eclipse. Yeah, you think so? Yeah, you should ask him about that. Not that there's one coming anytime soon, but still. But tell us, A, why did Venable want this job? I guess it's more almost an interview the other way around, perhaps. I don't know how the meeting went, but he was

a highly thought of managerial prospect. So what convinced him to take the plunge and then what did they like about him? I don't know the answer to the first question as much as I would like to, at least at this point. I've definitely asked him multiple times, but as far as feeling like I truly have a handle on it, other than he's very confident and the ultimate turnaround project maybe has some appeal as something he thinks he can achieve, but I've also asked him that angle and he didn't really embrace it that wholeheartedly either.

He just spoke a lot to connecting with Chris Getz and liking the vision a lot. As much as I don't feel like the organization is built around a single GM as genius thing, it's a lot about enhancing their infrastructure, and maybe Banister has put up in that lane or prioritizing the hitting coordinators. They talk about the vision of Chris Getz a lot in a way that makes him look

like sound like a shaman, like living in the mountains. But that's kind of what Venable is mostly cited when like why he wanted to come here, why this was a fit. But this was obviously a guy who like turned down interviews in previous years and certainly would have been a top candidate if he waited another year since his resume has only gotten like higher with being part of a World Series winning staff with the Bruce Bochy. So I think the White Sox really just saw him as a prize target and they figured why not rather than someone I heard about them targeting like right away. He interviewed very well. There's very little like Pedro Gafol brought with him. So many people from the Royals and just like the Mariners in his previous tenure, you know, a lot of them who got terminated at the same day he was, because they were kind of viewed

to be like, you know, part of an extension of him that he had brought over. Will Venable kind of joined a staff that like Chris Ketz already mostly hired. There's very few additions, the biggest one being Walter McKinven. And even that was more of a, not someone that Donnibel had like a previous relationship with. So it's very much a guy who like bought into like an existing operation and agreed to like be the manager of it. So seemingly is from the way he's acted, like just being down with what their vision of

the organization was going to be or what their plan was. And obviously for him, probably a pretty long rope as far as to not tie to you got to win now and no matter what we do, you do, or how we think of you as a manager, if the results aren't there, you're getting canned. I think it's probably a situation where there's a lot of security to be part of the ground floor of this operation that, you know, until an ownership change happens, which there's a lot of talked about, but there's a lot that has to happen in a lot of years probably in the way of that happening. There's probably a lot of stability here, slowly building the White Sox into something

that doesn't get put last in effectively wild previews at the end of the spring. Well, and as we look at the sort of guys on the roster who he has to work with, you know, we talked about some of the young players coming up. We may see some of them, some we want this year. But, you know, as you look down the projected, like opening day lineup, who among this group strikes you as likely to be there when we aren't talking to you last and next? You know, like who who are the guys who you think have an opportunity either because

they're young enough or because they might put themselves in a position to demonstrate, hey, I do have something in the tank that other organizations weren't able to draw out of me, you know, or I wasn't getting enough playing time, whatever it is, like who are the guys who you could see sort of separating themselves here and being part of the next group? Just offensively? Yeah, let's start. We'll start there and then we'll talk about the pitching in a minute. Especially with Montgomery optioned and like Ramos, you know, has an elbow issue and hasn't thrown in camp,

so he can't play defense and that doesn't make him very roster pull. I'm not really bullish on anyone here. They're obviously giving a lot of runway to Miguel Vargas. It's kind of like the reason to trade for him. He's kind of post-hype prospect and out of options. That's the reason why the Dodgers can't carry him anymore. And so what other reason do you trade for him other than to give him like a runway that he's never really able to have?

So he's going to get a chance to do it. He's, you know, I think I don't know about this place, but some outlets have ranked him in the top 50 in the past. He's someone who hit, you know, all the way through AAA. It's kind of not traditional for a corner because it's hit over power and the power like really dissipated last season as he lost a bunch of weight. He came into camp having added a bunch of weight, which, you know, obviously is what they asked him to do, but it just seems like a lot to go through back and forth in a short period of time. So it kind of remains to be seen how it's held and how it performs over the course of

the season. But even then, it's a non-traditional hit over power for a corner profile and it's defense that's kind of iffy there. He's bounced around for a reason. And usually when you, maybe if you're a shortstop utility man, it's because you have that versatility and skill, but if you're bouncing around different corner spots,

it's kind of because no place is really sticking. So he played one game in left field after the trade last year. Didn't look great and had an error. And he played a third base and mostly looked fine, but probably tick below average is what you're hoping it polishes the bean. It's had some roughness in spring.

So those two things make it a little bit of a difficult path to really see it sticking as being the long-term option. He's got the hurdles of not having traditional plus power and defense to overcome purely on hitting ability, which we just saw him hit 120. So they're going to try it this season and I see why, but it wouldn't be my pick on the roster for what's going to stick. And Lenin Sosa, I just like mentioning Lenin because one, I've been following him since he was 17 and now he's like 25 and someone that the fan base is totally sick of because they've seen him come up and down like 5,000 times.

He swings hard and he hits the ball pretty hard. If he can ever stop chasing, which wouldn't probably be an absurd thing to expect him to improve if he was domestic college player and we didn't really see him debut until he's 24, but instead we saw him debut when he was really young and saw him just struggle at this thing repeatedly at the major league level over and over again. But, you know, any like grade level

improvement in probably chase discipline makes him like a very rostrable bat. But then he has the issue of I don't know where the defensive home is either. So it once again makes it a little hard to be like, yeah, for sure. Lenin's going to have to continue like bashing his way onto like a major league roster, like from here on out, he's out of options. Lenin's going to have to continue like bashing his way onto like a major league roster, like from here on out. He's out of options. It's probably going to bounce around if like he falls off at any point from the stocks here. So here's to him.

But it's another like tricky one where I went bet on even if, you know, kind of personally just from following for us all and I'm rooting for it. I just looked at Joey Gallo's spring training stats, which was a mistake. Well, it's informative. 11 strikeouts and 20 at bats as we speak. Is that good? That doesn't seem good with two singles, I might add.

He's talked about working on swing path. Could be just a blip in a larger progress. Sure, he's just working on stuff. He'll turn it on as soon as it's opening day, if he's around. Can we just talk about Andrew Vaughn for a second, who's been one of the more mystifying players over the past few years.

Why did his development stagnate the way it did? Initially, I kind of got it. It's like this guy's playing outfield. He's not suited to be an outfielder. Maybe that's why, but then even when he was allowed to settle in and play more natural positions, that just didn't wake up his bat whatsoever. So what went wrong and is there any hope left that it could go right? So you talk about development and Vaughn didn't really have much because he kind of played like a handful of games in high A in his draft year and then it was COVID and he played at

the alternate site and then he was in the majors next year. So he kind of skipped a lot of adjustments, maybe like what's referred to as the upper minors might have dealt with him. So I think if you watch like college Vaughn, the leg kick is probably a lot more distinctive it is now and you saw him really deal with a lot of like smoothing out of like moving parts that he had in response to like major league fastballs being scrown by him rather than maybe being a bit more gradual process over double A and triple A. That said like That said, Andrew's pretty private about adjustments he makes.

Other than generally the simplifying as he would say of his swing and everything getting smaller in terms of load, I wouldn't say there's some big dramatic alteration to path or huge overall that he's done and talked about that's gone sideways or anything like that. It's just like, he has had some like slow starts, but it seems like it's just a recreation of he stagnated somewhere around his second season and we've just kind of getting diminishing returns from that. But it's still like the same fundamental issues as It's a lot more chase than you would have expected watching Macal where you got pitched around a ton. And it's not as much power

as maybe we were projecting. And it was right along the time where maybe the ball stopped flying the way it did. Whereas it was expected to be able to go out to the opposite field a lot more than really proven to be able to in the majors. It's still a mystery to me. I still don't have great answers, but it seems like it's a tick below what we'd expect. But there's also a level of this was a right, right first baseman. And if you miss by a grade on that for anything, where it's a 5-5 hit in power rather than 6-6, it goes from a franchise anchor to, should we not enter this guy? Every year. There's always kind of like a path that had to be like really perfectly done to deliver

the value that it needed to be. And it was not, it was a very atypical path that he took to the majors and has been gone through since the majors. Like he dealt with back and you know, upper thigh issues as a result of playing the outfield as much. As much as he's fully recovered, that's still something he had to go through. So it's been kind of a rocky path for a project that really had to be a very special bat to play at the level of investment they put into it. AMT – Maybe we can shift to the pitching side of things. You mentioned that they brought

in Perez and then they also have Bryce Wilson. We've noted the notable absence of Crochet. Tell us about the rest of this rotation as it's currently constituted, and then who do you see as the depth behind it in the upper miners who might reinforce it of these guys? Get hurt. I imagine they'll be allowed to underperform for a while, should they, but if they get hurt somebody's gotta throw So who are the guys who might throw?

In in the event of injury who are the depth options behind the rotation start with the rotation and then talk to us about the depth Davis Martin might start opening day for them. I Feel like I could say on the strength of his the virality of his kick change and it would be like at least 30% true. Yeah, they felt like one, he has kind of thrown lots of strikes for the last two, three years now in between having TJ in the middle of it. So there's a reliability level to it. He had kind of a blip walk rate coming off of TJ last year, but it's been really good in spring. And that was kind of his reputation even before his stuff kind of took a jump and he put himself on the major league radar. So

they feel like, other than like it's a below average fastball, they feel really good about like everything you can do spin wise. And he just needed something that moved armside and, you know, his kick change has clicked pretty quickly for him. He threw it like a day after learning it in a game and did really well. And it's a high 80s change up that has a lot of drops. So he looks like someone who has average or better control and good secondaries to go to war with a 40 fastball. And that could be like an average just started.

They don't have like this ceiling like crochet anywhere. Like Jonathan Cannon's probably the same way and also not having a very good spring up to this point, which is not creating a lot of certainty, but is another kind of sinker changeup guy who throws a lot of pitches and probably won't throw you the same type of fastball very often. So Martin Perez is basically that, but has, you know, with 500 years of experience, I don't think I've seen him crack 90 in spring, but he's also carved every time I've watched him,

which sounds very like late career Martin Perez, but there are limitations there. He could probably be a solid average low to mid four starter for you, would be a great return on him, and also possibly your open day starter as well. So they don't have like a number one, but they have a lot of like,

oh, that guy belongs in the majors. Sean Burke, I guess has a bit more ceiling, but, um, has four or three career major league starts. I really liked what he did at the end of last season. Um, he had a really impressive outing in September against a Padres team. It was right about to go to the playoffs. And now that he's healthy dealt with a lot of shoulder stuff in the past. He's kind of 94, 96, and you know, was able to throw a you know, a curveball

and slider off of it. And there's another guy that is kind of a big, like Brian Bannister taught me a change up. I never could throw one before. All I could do was spin the ball. And they have a lot of those kinds of devotees on the staff. And I guess it's foreseeable that Burke, just with his like Velo could be like a guy who is an above-average starter but also like hasn't really thrown the innings to like really peg him for like a full season of production this year either and then it's kind of the fist starter war where Wilson was kind of brought in to do that you know being a kind of a sinker ball guy who was going to throw from an even lower slot to try to heighten his change up with you know the guy rule five pick

Shane Smith, who had the really good outing against the Dodgers that got a little bit of attention, but has been throwing 97, 98 in camp, which as much as the White Sox feel like they're teaching everybody changeups that work, and he has one of those as well, the real revelation would be like,

he's a pretty good AA starter, but if he could, he was throwing 94, 95 last year at the Brewers, where he's taken like three to four bump in VELO all of a sudden, like, yeah, maybe he's a lot more relevant as a starter for them, but is probably someone who's can't really throw much beyond 120 innings. So I think even if like all five of the starters work, which obviously never happens, and there's no reason to think this org is particularly like going to have that level of fortune. They're probably looking at a lot of guys where they

have to dig into the miners. Mason Adams is someone who's starting today, which is irrelevant to Santa Podcast because it won't be today, but starting Friday that they're really high on. He's a very kitchen sink control tunneling guy. Hirer Irate, they have been doing a lot of work. His fastball is really off after they got him from San Diego and doing a lot of stuff to get him back to his old delivery because they loved it on video and looking at like 2023 video and they showed up to camp and he was a lot more upright and they have kind of been fixing this thing like all year. He looked okay in spring.

So I think that's, they regularly talk him up as an option, but I don't think it's like ready now. You probably need to see more progress. Nick Distrini had a good camp and obviously was like, won their first starter job last spring, but then got pneumonia. Stretched him out and he's looked pretty good so far, but they've also already optioned him and he ended last year in the bullpen. I think he'll get more chances to start, but he's kind of on, the control has been so inconsistent at this point that I think if he kind of falls into another episode where he can't really reliably throw strikes or get through the order like twice, you know, he's going to be in the game for a long time.

But I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that.

I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to be able to do that. I think he's going to on, the control has been so inconsistent at this point that I think if he kind of falls into another episode where he can't really reliably throw strikes or get through the order like twice, you know, he could make starts for the White Sox this

year. He could be, you know, convert to relief for this year. And I don't think either one would be like a surprising endpoint at this point. So I kind of lean against them, especially with like both of them targeting for like 110 innings. Hagen Smith or Noah Schultz, certainly not being regular members of the rotation. They are fond of bringing guys like that

up to pitch once a week out of the bullpen right at the end of the season to get a taste of the majors. I think that's probably what makes sense for them, given what they have plans for them anyways. So the real upper level future starters, I don't really see pitching for them a whole lot this year. I think it's a lot of waves of,

yeah, that guy could be a guy and trying a lot of them out over the course of the season. But I don't think you see like, this is our future top of the rotation beyond like, watching them like blow away a seventh inning full of lefties while they're losing seven to three like in September. How big a guy could Jonathan Cannon be in terms of performance? I know that physically he's quite a big guy, but he was not a top 100 prospect, but he came up last year as a rookie and when I cited that stat of the top seven white socks by Fangrass wore last year, only one is still here. He was that one.

So how good could he be potentially? Because he's got a good name for a pitcher. Although then again, we never really say that pitchers have a cannon for an arm or a cannon arm. That's usually something you say about position players, I guess because it's just assumed that a pitcher is going to have a good arm. So why would you even need to say that? But I did enjoy that he had some success last season.

So can that continue? It's a plus name. I don't think it's like an ideal starter name, but like it's certainly better. Like, yeah, it's no Jensen junk or I don't know. Kevin Slowey. Yeah. Colin Holderman. You just do this the rest of the preview. Talk about guys who have cool names.

Or not cool names specifically. Right. Yeah. True. Yeah. Justin Dunn as a reliever, I think, is a lot better because you can end the game with him. Or he's a starter and you're pulling him in the fifth and then it kind of plays all that. Right.

Yeah. Eric Bummer has always been a risky one. You just feel like you're sentenced. Scott Bluett, obviously. Bluett, yeah. Yeah. Troubles has always been a risky one. Like, you just feel like you're set in... Scott Blewett, obviously. Blewett, yeah. Yeah, troublesome. Troublesome.

Yeah. Anyway. I've been bullish on Cannon. I wish he was throwing better in spring right now, so I wasn't, like, referring to a guy with, like, a 10 ERA. Brian Bannister brings up Logan Webb a lot with him, which I think is more descriptive of he feels this type, but rather than maybe true value. But it certainly reflects enthusiasm for him. And as I said, he thinks he can be one of the better starters in the league,

but it's kind of a delicate profile because it's not a dominant fastball. It's not really a dominant pitch of any particular kind. It's a lot of based on him harnessing scene effects and commanding it really well and, you know, having very different mixes for different-handed hitters, which isn't that atypical, but I think he is exceptionally wide case. It seems like it's a lot that has to go right for it to click. And maybe it'll seem a lot smoother when he's 28 and 29 and kind of very experienced at this than it's going to look when he's especially last year. He even acknowledged like learning kind of a new way to pitch midseason.

It was really difficult for him because Basterd tweaked a lot of things, and gave him a seam shift change and, you know, change the sinker and, you know, what gave him a sweeper instead of a power curve and all sorts of things. And he was dealing with a lot, you know, still not as consistent as he wants it to be right now, obviously. So I don't know if I'm ready to say, like, this is a guy who's going to pop this season, because I think it's just a lot to work through. And it's a lot of, I think it's going to be like a great old man arsenal when he's really commanding everything, but I don't know if it happens right away. And then if his velocity like ebbs a little bit, does it back up into like more of a backend

guy? I don't know. So I like him as a, as a major leaguer. I don't know if he becomes like, you know, one of the better starters or like their number two guy. And ifaguer, I don't know if he becomes one of their better starters or their number two guy. And if it does, I think that happens a bit later career than now. I think right now roster resource has five guys listed in a closer role for the White Sides. I saw that. I don't think suggests that Jason Martinez thinks that they have five closer worthy arms necessarily. But do you think that they will operate with a set closer and how are they thinking about

sort of piecing this bullpen together? A bullpen that I had forgotten includes Mike Clevengers and NRI. Good times. Got to roll back with that guy. You know, you got to do it. Every time you have an opportunity, you got to bring back Mike Clevenger, I guess. Will it be crazy to bring him back and then like not roster know, we got to do it every time you have an opportunity. You got to bring back my Clevenger, I guess. Will it be crazy to bring them back and then like not roster them? Right.

Right. I guess that's true. I guess so. All right. But, um, in all seriousness, how are they thinking about bringing this group together and sequencing these guys? Um, just put yourself in my shoes. You were walking into the clubhouse of the team coming off

the 41 and 121 season and asking the pitching coach. So who's your closer as if that's like something he can conceive or let alone is like high up on his list of priorities or just like something he thinks of beyond the realm of, well, it would be nice just to get there. They don't have a set closer at this point. They're kind of going to figure it out. Perlando Baroa probably had this stuff and he finished the last season to be someone that like based on talent or stuff level, you'd think like, well, the best case scenario, this bullpen has him emerging to do this and then probably getting traded the deadline as a result. But he blew out and had underwent Tommy John surgery. So now it's even more of kind of a collection of guys you could look at and squint and like,

if they really have their best season, if everything works for them, I could see them working leverage. And then you say, does that mean closer? And then you realize like, oh, I don't know if I'm willing to bestow that on Penn Murphy. I don't know. Maybe like if they have like, you know, the best Penn Murphy season. Yeah. Like they, why not? Like, I don't think they're allergic to the role by any mind, but I think the same thing is like, I could give you an argument for like Brandon Iser that they claimed off waivers has a really low release height. It's kind of funky. And I think he could be effective. Their analysts really like them. Like, is he the closer?

And I'm like, Oh my God, no, I think he's pitched like 10 games. That's kind of funky. And I think he could be effective. Their analysts really like them. Like, is he the closer? And like, Oh my God, no, I think he's pitched like 10 games. That's probably a little too much. I feel like I would talk that way about pretty much any candidate on the roster. Like Gus Varland, you know, pitch really well last year and you know, had really Verde fast ball and it was able to locate it for a good stretch. And they feel good about him. I don't know if he's the closer yet. That seems like a lot. He's had like a good month and a half. I think Justin Anderson technically has the most saves on the team, but it was like pre-COVID and you know, he had a eight run inning in spring cause he's looked a little off. So

I don't know if I'd put that on him right at this moment either. It's really something that's got to get figured out. And it's why, especially with them clearly with some intent bringing Mike Clevenger back and you know kind of bestowing this relief role that he was you know willing to embrace right away it leads a lot of people to speculate he has kind of an inside track of who they turn to in high leverage. I think he's pitched twice and been scoreless so far so sitting around 95 he'd probably view like the old days of Clevenger hitting 97 as probably what you'd hope for if you put him to a relief roll. But we'll see if that matures. He's supposed to be fully

healthy after neck surgery last year. So they're hoping that they can get that stuff back, but obviously you're not trying to get the same little innings back, which usually already reflects a downgrade in physical ability if that's the case. I know you asked Getz about Clevenger and I know that he was not disciplined by MLB after the investigation, but how much grief should the White Sox be getting for continuing to employ him? They kind of ground everything in terms of, well, we know a bit more than the public and from what we know about the case, we're really comfortable.

But I think beyond kind of waiting uninformed into like the factuals of the case, I think it's this point, it's a lot of what the messaging of someone associated with an incident like this kind of communicates to the fan base. Because clearly at this point, it's something that the fans associate this player with this behavior, what he's been accused of. And is this talent like,

well, understanding the that he's not supposed to be punished or have this held against him, you know, given what the league has said. Why is this a proactive choice to make this association or reignite this association with the fan base has with this behavior and thus feels like you're communicating about how much that issue matters? I think the White Sox are just trying to communicate like, you know, we've, we don't view it as that because he's been, you know, we don't view it as that because he's been, you know, effectively in their minds cleared of that or shouldn't be because he hasn't been disciplined and hasn't, you know, lauded his clubhouse behavior and how

he's been with the organization. But I don't think that they're realistic about the fan base accepting that or being able to separate that association anytime soon, or maybe fully in touch with the weight of continuing the association. Yeah. On the ownership front, Justin Ishbia pivoted from potentially buying the twins to instead increasing his minority stake in the White Sox. How meaningful is that? Is he the heir apparent to Reinsdorf? Is there an heir apparent? I think it's a lot of signaling that people are kind of winking, acknowledging like, yeah,

that's certainly something worth following. But can you officially state that it's some sort of like deal that puts them in position or, you know, that's been flat out denied by the team that it has some sort of deal that puts him in position or that's been flat out denied by the team that it has some sort of route to control because the ownership stakes that he's been buying up don't actually pertain to control the franchise. So it's more about like, does this signal something more at work in the future

than what's actually happening? Like the fact that he stopped trying to buy the Twins and did this thing with the White Sox is more like correlation to what seems like an intent of someone who really wants to own a baseball team, shifting their focus to a different baseball team. And what that obviously implies, then these actions that have taken place constitute a succession plan being made. But Jerry's getting up there. He's announced the intent for, or at least it's been reported that he's advised his family to sell when he does pass. And it's obviously views kind of settling the stadium issue, kind of part of what he needs to figure out

while he's currently in control now. We've been seeing kind of both with the, what they've tried to do as far as securing Svelik funding for the stadium or enthusiasm for it, which is hard with the team performing as it is. It's clear that like some machinations being put in place for like how things are going to play out at the end of Reinsdorf's role as chairman. I think it's a ton of smoke and probably points to something that's going to happen in the future. I think it's years off on actually happening or some sort of big change in the organization, how it currently operates. And I certainly think baseball ops is kind of operating that way, but it's certainly something worth following because

I think it probably is connected to the future of the ownership of the White Sox, but I don't know how many more updates we're going to get anytime soon. Okay. Well, our final question, the final question of this segment, the final question of the 2025 season preview series, so no pressure, big finish here. What would constitute success for the White Sox now that they have lowered the bar as low as it possibly could be last year? Is it a win total? Is it trades that they might make? Is it organizational progress and continuing to improve player development? Maybe you'll say all the above, but what do they have to do to make people feel like the ship is being righted? I mean, probably like four out of six or something like that, somewhere in there. Like if they, I don't know, like, cause they obviously can't,

where they performed in a draft lottery, the gates a little bit of their impact to like just nailing their top pick, how much impact they can have. But that would be part of it. Luis Robert played really well and got like a haul of the deadline. Like that would probably be a big highlight

and it certainly would reflect them continuing to do better at trades going forward. You know, at one point during cactus league media day, someone asked gets what like a success to the team would look like. And he was talking obviously about like the major league team. That was the question directed, but he mentioned like better secondary leads and first steps on defense as like a big thing that they're worried about. And if you look at the numbers, like, yeah, they've been really bad at that all the time, over and over again.

Like there's been a little bit of question, like, especially last year, like obviously the team was bad from the jump, but like 2022, 2023, these were teams that like underperformed what people thought they were capable of and sure there are a lot of injuries in it, but just consistently like played a worse brand of baseball. Even the team that won the division in 2021 was just simply more talented than everybody they faced and really got exposed for a lot of things in that Astros series where they got kind of quickly bounced. So there is a lot of just like brand of baseball, like detail things where they can improve,

probably steer clear of 121 losses without a big addition in talent by improving. And it would be like meaningful as far as establishing that as something that he performed to a certain standard with going forward. But man, when I wrote an article about that and that was the big improvement, the white socks wanted to do boy, we're fans, not happy to hear something like that. Secondary leads, some teams get one Soto. Some teams get 15 feet off the bag. Things that reflect larger improvements in organizational quality, I think would be a lot, I think just seeing like, I mean, fans go Gaga when there's any like sign of like some sort of research or data insight, making a player like perform well. So all the signs they can do that they're

capable of doing that, which is not something they felt like they were getting their share of, uh, through a lot of the old regime that would be plus, even if like, you know, you can't build a championship out of Davis Martin, new pitch stories. Like at least a lot of them would make it feel like things are trending in the right direction this year. Even if it's a lot of like, we turned our five starter into a number four, hooray, like doesn't win a world series, but but it's something good teams would do. Well, I am fond of Brian Bannister, so I always enjoy a good Brian Bannister story.

He did come up several times in this segment, so I guess that's a good sign, but it is probably contingent on the investments that they're making organizationally, which it sounds like they are to some extent, certainly in relative sense, just kind of building up the infrastructure, coaches, data, can't hurt. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of, they're on Google Cloud this year, that's their big thing. They weren't before. Hawkeye had their affiliates this year, they didn't have that last year. There's a lot of things that they felt like when they talk about, you know, last year being clarifying was a lot of like, oh God, we don't have that reactions from the new people and kind of addressing it. So it doesn't seem like, you know,

exactly the thing you want to pimp as you trot up the first baseline, but it's something that makes them feel like they're better off now than they were in the past because they have done it eventually. And maybe by working on secondary leads, that implies that they're going to get on base, right? So maybe that's after a 278 on base percentage last season, you know, maybe that evinces some confidence that they will need to take leads this season. I think, well, you can't steal first might've been the first thing that the first base coach said when I interviewed him about that,

the whole secondary lead effort. All right, well, thank you for being one of the White Sox closers mentioned in this segment by helping us wrap up this odyssey of a series, yet another year, always a pleasure to get to end by talking to you, though I'm sure White Sex fans would be happier to have you come earlier in the series.

But we finished strong. Thank you, James, and best of luck to you this season. I mean, I don't think they're beating down your door either way, but I think you ordered your podcast correctly. All right, that will do it for today, for this week, and for the 2025 Effectively Wild season preview series. Thank you again to our guests and thank you to you for listening. And now we return to our regularly scheduled podcasting. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by

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