Employee Survival Guide® - Workplace Stress and Your Health - Interview With Heather Carey

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, it's Mark here, and welcome to the next edition of the Employee Survival Guide, where I tell you, as always, what your employer does definitely not want you to know about, and a lot more. Today's episode is about the U.S. Surgeon General's release of his framework for workplace mental health and well-being. But for this episode, we are doing something a little bit different. If you are new to this podcast, you may not know that I work alongside my wife, Heather Carey, in the same office. Heather is a well-known culinary nutritionist, chef, and provides individual one-on-one nutrition consulting,

Starting point is 00:00:38 but also provides online cooking classes for corporate wellness programs nationwide. Heather also has a podcast called Real Food Stories, where this episode will also air. We both read the Surgeon General's report and had similar reactions, and we decided to record a conversation over the weekend about the report regarding employee stress and well-being. We hope you enjoy this episode, which explores the crossroads of how companies treat employee, in particular, employee mental health and their well-being. Our combined focus in this episode is on the whole employee, a topic never discussed before

Starting point is 00:01:14 until this episode. Enjoy the show. So the Surgeon General just released a report on the state of the workplace, mental health, and well-being, I believe in response to the COVID lockdown. I was very curious about this report since, in case you didn't know this, a big part of what I do is corporate wellness. This was not on the forefront for me until we actually had the COVID lockdown. And with the help of Zoom, I was able to not only help corporations gather their teams together through healthy online cooking classes and webinars, but I was also

Starting point is 00:01:52 able to help with their general well-being. Eating healthy and well has a cascade effect, as you probably know by now. When you know how to eat simple healthy foods and make them taste great, you are in turn helping to stay healthy. Consistent healthy eating helps with all those lifestyle diseases I have mentioned in prior podcasts, heart disease, diabetes, certain cancers, and obesity, to name a few. And eating healthy and well can help lower your stress too. The Surgeon General's report was interesting to not only me, but I also happen to be very closely connected to someone who is an expert in the field of employment law. And to help me with the conversation, I thought I would include Mark Carey, who also happens to be my husband.

Starting point is 00:02:46 Mark is a nationally recognized employment plaintiff's attorney. He also has a podcast called The Employee Survival Guide. And we both read the report separately and had a lot of thoughts on it. So hi, Mark. Hi, Heather. How are you today? I'm actually pretty good. How are you today? I'm actually pretty good. How are you?

Starting point is 00:03:06 I'm good. So not only are we married, but we do work pretty closely together. Our offices actually are side by side. That's right. And we don't normally put our heads together because our careers are very different. put our heads together because our careers are very different. But in this case, we thought it would be a great idea to have a mutual conversation about the workplace and stress. Yeah, I think we felt the same way about reading the Surgeon General's report. That's correct. So the report states that chronic stress is responsible for the overactivation of the fight or flight response,

Starting point is 00:03:46 which in turn raises our stress hormone cortisol and can be responsible for disrupted sleep, slower digestion, and an increase in the risk of infections, diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, heart disease, obesity, some cancers, and some autoimmune diseases, not to mention that chronic stress is a primary factor for mental health. And this applies to our workplace. So I wanted to ask you a question, Mark, today. Is work really that stressful? Do we place too much emphasis on work being everything to us?

Starting point is 00:04:28 Because the workplace cannot be the only thing that is causing us this much stress. But it was clearly enough for the Surgeon General to do a great deal of research on it and write up an extensive report. Right. I agree. on it and write up an extensive report. Right. I agree. I want to start off by saying that this is very obvious that we all have our identities, our work identities. We spend a substantial amount of our lives working. And we're working in work cultures that sometimes are a little bit archaic, this nine to five schedule. But today we have this really new example for us, and it's called the work flexibility, remote work, because of the pandemic.

Starting point is 00:05:14 Now we're, and because you and I are now having a podcast discussion about wellness and, you know, working, I think everybody is now seeking those answers. And I think the two of us just independently had similar thoughts about that. So work is stressful, but does it have to be? I don't think it has to be. Well, it did say in the report also that in the working world, stress can come from long hours, long commutes, unpredictable schedules, low wages. And I know some of your personal favorites, which are the hostile and toxic work environments we can sometimes be in, dangerous work conditions, and of course, a lot of discrimination. We also know that during the

Starting point is 00:06:00 height of COVID, the rate of risky health behaviors, smoking, drinking alcohol, medication overuse, and bad eating habits absolutely went through the roof to alarming levels. So what do you think can be done about all of this? From an employer's perspective, is there anything that is in their control to help their workers? We're at a great pause moment in our working society, and it's because of the pandemic. And it's really shed light on a very important aspect, which is, you know, our work culture. What are we doing? And everybody seems to be responding very favorably to the flexibility of our life, determining their own time. And employers are taking notice. And it's really a monumental pivot in our work history. So I do have favorites about toxic

Starting point is 00:06:54 working environments and life, but we can talk about that later in the podcast. But why don't you go on to the next part of this? So do employers have an obligation to be concerned about the health of their employees? We have so much stress going on outside of work, inside of work, but are employers legally obligated to help employees with their stress? Because the Surgeon General seems to think so, but I wanted to get your perspective on it. Yeah, the Surgeon General did have a very strong perspective of that it's an obligation for employers to help in the mental health well-being of employees. My belief is that the employer has a very strong obligation, a moral one and also a financial one. They're making money off the hours that people work. And if they're not running – the machines are not in well-tuned order,

Starting point is 00:07:46 you're going to have less profitability. And we know that to be factually true, statistically true. So yes, employers have a very strong motive. People are spending a large measure of their lives working. So I know from like, you are probably addressing the more like macro level, you know, initiatives like you are using legal action to sometimes sue employers and things like that. From my perspective, I am more at a micro level with my healthy online cooking classes and I do healthy webinars, lunch and learns all online now. And I read a statistic somewhere that said 52% of U.S. companies offer wellness programs. And more importantly, 72% of employers saw a reduction in health care costs after implementing a wellness program. So do you think that these micro level moves are helpful? I dramatically so, but the employers are, they're not spending enough time and money to do it,

Starting point is 00:08:56 to make employees be, become aware that they should utilize them. The employees are in fear of using them, generally speaking, or they're, how about this? Like I've watched, like you do your corporate classes and the companies are only buying an hour and a half of time and then back to work. How about like doing some more time? It's, you're, they're only just band-aiding something and they're not, the perspective I get from my clients is a very different culture than what you're seeing in your cooking class. What I'm seeing is fear-based management practices that people are just waiting to get their performance improvement plan, or they're operating with a very different perspective. And so when you overlay this

Starting point is 00:09:37 with the corporate wellness, they're not solving the initial problem of reducing and eliminating the fear. So it's a very strange environment. Yeah, I see that sometimes. I think that a lot of companies sometimes have budgets that they have to use before the end of the year. And so they'll sign up for one cooking class here or there and not really consider the bigger picture that multiple classes, maybe a weekly class or something would be really helpful rather than just for the record saying that they did a healthy cooking class with their employees. Yeah, it's not like a check-a-box approach. It's something more deeper than that. And people can really – I think employees know.

Starting point is 00:10:17 They know whether employers are being, you know, transparent and genuine. Right. And a lot of times I also read that it's really helpful to employees when the upper management, you know, and the higher ups participate also in these wellness programs, which, you know, just makes them feel like we're all in this together. And a lot of times the managers and, you know, just those higher ups are not there to participate in the classes. So I think that really makes a difference. You brought up a thought that I remembered early on in the pandemic that companies actually had more of an empathy factor for employees and employees noticed more. And actually that has now shifted backward

Starting point is 00:10:57 because we're pushing people back to work and using kind of default do-as-I-say approach mentality, and we're losing that. That was very important. Everybody knew that early on. And now that empathy factor is kind of waiting away for the sake of profits. It's weird. So you're saying that there was more of an empathy factor during COVID? Yeah, during the lockdowns. There was more care factor. It was statistically proven. Everybody, they liked that. Yeah, I think I saw that too, that during the height of COVID and we were all in isolation and employers seemed a little more concerned about the well-being of their employees and

Starting point is 00:11:35 just making sure that everyone was happy and content being at home. And luckily, we had Zoom to bring us all together. But that, I think, segues into my next question that I had was, do you think that a good work environment creates good health? Or does being healthy create a better work environment? I know this is a very vague question. The first part makes sense to me. A good working environment is one where it's not fear-based. You're in a trusting, collaborative relationship with a good family environment. And people can trust.

Starting point is 00:12:18 I mean, if you have trust with employees, you really can go far and do a lot of things. But a lot of our practices in corporations, mainly, is it because the companies are too big that they can't create that environment? So a good working environment, yes, creates a good health basis for employees to form and have good health habits. Because I read that also with some of these wellness programs that the people who get the most benefit out of them are the ones who are already at some level of health and wellness. They're already participating in exercise classes. They're already eating at a level of healthy eating that they don't – these are just added bonuses. These are just added bonuses. So that, I think, was my question was, you know, is it the obligation of the employer to tell people how to eat well and how to deal with their stress and how to get more healthy rather than, you know, we do this on our own. We do live in a society where we are independent and can take our own initiative

Starting point is 00:13:28 for our health. And so I think that was just my question again. Do employers have the obligation to make sure that their employees are quote unquote healthy? I think what we're all witnessing now is the corporate management is basically reevaluating this exact question that you're raising. It's a good point because we're – these employees are – without a company, you don't have an – without employees, you don't have a company. And they're now looking at these – instead of a very dehumanized way, they're know, the names of people and where they are and what they're doing and maybe the mental disabilities that they have and trying to, they're looking at it, whether they're actually taking action to care for them. I'm not seeing that yet. I'm seeing the exact opposite. I'm seeing the same old cases come into my office. People are just being ruined.

Starting point is 00:14:20 It's just literally gotten fired and it's devastating. I mean, they've lost their identity. So I'm not seeing a good-hearted, good-feel approach from companies. I don't have that feeling from them. So overall, you don't see a lot of initiative from employers? No, I don't see it. And I've been criticizing that aspect entirely. We have this quiet quitting thing happening now. And I've been shouting out and saying, well, this is why it's happening. And it's because of these old management practices that are only geared to making profit. And

Starting point is 00:14:57 they're just driving employees to unhappiness levels. Can you explain what quiet quitting is? I actually don't. I've heard you talk about this, but I don't actually know exactly what that is. It means doing your 40 hours of work and nothing more. So just going to work, putting your head to the grindstone and leaving work for the day and shutting the door. Correct. That's it. And just getting your paycheck. And it's ripping companies apart. Do you think that quiet quitting is adding to this level of chronic stress in the workplace? I think it's a reaction to the chronic stress. And it's emanating from, unbelievably, it's emanating from people who are 30 and under. Those employees are looking at the workspace and saying,

Starting point is 00:15:42 we don't like the older way of working that's been done of our parents. And we want something more meaningful. And then something ironically happened. Everybody started quiet quitting, not just the 30 and under. All right. Well, let's talk about the report a little bit more. So the report did state a lot of facts and figures about the workplace, but it didn't really offer. I think we both agreed

Starting point is 00:16:05 when we read the report, it didn't really offer any concrete solutions as to how to tackle stress from a health perspective, which was interesting to me as a nutritionist because I know how linked stress is to health. So the report stated these five initiatives or these essentials for workplace mental health and well-being. Again, not much emphasis on the specifics of how to achieve these essential goals. But the one that stood out to me as a nutritionist was the connection and community bucket. And again, this is where cooking with others, be it online via Zoom, is a great first start. I have seen my classes bring employees together from all over the world, and corporations are rarely ever based in just one

Starting point is 00:16:56 location anymore. Everyone needs to know how to cook. Cooking and eating well is not just for the upper management. Now, the other essentials in the report were protection from harm, which included safety, work-life harmony, mattering at work, and opportunity for growth. All of these can contribute to stress. So Mark, what specifically do you see that needs to change in these areas? And did any of these buckets stand out for you? Again, I see this micro level change that needs to happen. And these are small steps that can happen, just like without having a cooking class or a healthy webinar. What do you see from the legal point of view that could be changed?

Starting point is 00:17:50 All right. I have a very strong opinion about this, and it's because I've looked at something for 25 years of doing this, and it's really the trust factor. I'll use my example. In my office, everybody is what's called a for-cause employee. This at-will employment situation, we threw out the door. And the reason why I did that is because I wanted to create more trust, that the employee knew what type of basis they can get fired for, not just any day at any hour. So creating the trust, but that's only one aspect. by the actions of a manager to create a collaborative and safe working environment, that they mattered, that everybody was equal, not just people who are brown and black right these days, but everybody's equal. The work flexibility issue, that's a huge issue that came out of the pandemic. We're working remotely. Obviously, not everybody has that special

Starting point is 00:18:43 opportunity to do that. Most people have to – a large measure of the population has to go work in nine to five workspaces. And you just can create a trusting relationship whereby your opinion matters and basically a community, a family environment that is not one based upon fear. But that is the norm these days experienced by many, many workers, both blue collar and white collar. So it was mattering at work. It was trust, really the trust of being the first part. And I know that sounds like a laudable high goal, but it's really basic. And it really is about communication. And it's not putting fear and presumption of fear out in the workspace. It already identifies with trust at work. So I would start there. But the report is by the Surgeon General didn't provide solutions. And this thing is about mental health, of course,

Starting point is 00:19:36 and if we can get into those solutions in a second. So I think from a corporate perspective that employers can do a much better job at offering the small things like wellness initiatives to their employees. I think that will help with the trust factor, like you said. Right. Will help with feeling like they matter at work, the connection and community, work-life harmony. I think it all intermingles with each other. I agree. I know that there's some big benefits of incorporate wellness initiatives, and I think

Starting point is 00:20:11 they address what the Surgeon General Report has to say. In fact, the report says that, quote, organizational efforts to invest in workplace well-being can in turn support the development of a happier, healthier, more productive workforce and contribute to the success and economic well-being of an organization. So again, for me, I teach cooking classes on Zoom to a variety, a number of people, and it's been a game changer for some corporations. People can cook from their homes. I can see what they're doing.

Starting point is 00:20:46 They can taste what I teach and see that healthy food can be easy and taste great. I think it's a total win-win. Hey, can I add a little thought here? Sure. I've been your kind of secret sous chef all along, and I can honestly say, and I'm pitching, that people can learn how to cook. I'm actually a better cook, and I can actually cook any recipe that Heather can give me without asking her questions, just because I practice cooking, and it works. That is true. You have been a very good student over the years. So I've been talking about the micro-level moves that employers can initiate, like corporate cooking classes, to help with the well-being of their employees. But what if you, from a legal standpoint, are just

Starting point is 00:21:35 in a toxic work environment, and you just feel like no matter what, all these little, you know, just feel like no matter what, all these little, you know, cooking classes and things like that are just not helping. Can you just explain what a toxic work environment is and why this would cause so much stress? And then more importantly, what can people do from a legal standpoint to help themselves? Okay. So let's start with what the Surgeon General defined toxic workplaces to be, or at least the attributes, the five attributes of the most predictive of a toxic work environment. Number one, disrespectful. Two, non-inclusiveness. Three, unethical. Four, cutthroat. And five, abusive behavior. What about discrimination?

Starting point is 00:22:27 I mean, I'm sure I know that you deal with this all the time. Sexual discrimination, racism, ageism. So in the Surgeon General's definition, disrespectful, non-inclusive, all of these attributes are, they include discrimination. They include, you know, on base of any sexual orientation or mental illness. I want to make sure that you understand what toxic work environment means to the average person is different than how the courts interpret it. The courts interpret it as being a very high bar of really bad, bad behavior by management, by co-workers to the point where it just becomes

Starting point is 00:23:08 outrageous, where one would say, that's outrageous. That's what the courts think of it is. Well, that sounds very subjective. That's outrageous. I mean, that doesn't... It's a pretty high bar. Is that a law being outrageous? I literally have to summarize the law in a couple of seconds. It's literally has to reach that far of abuse. And that's not what the Surgeon General's he's addressing any level of abuse because no zero level of abuse. Let's all agree is is the is the is the goal. toxic work environment equals stressful work environment equals a hit to your mental health and your physical health, which then in turn comes up with a whole bunch of different lifestyle illnesses, like I had said earlier, diabetes, heart disease, amongst, you know, the few of them. So what can people do then from a legal perspective to help themselves if they are feeling very out of control and helpless at work?

Starting point is 00:24:14 I think the first thing you do is start off with educating yourself about what your rights are. Did you know that the average person coming in my office doesn't really understand what their rights are? And I have to spend the time, which I'm very happy to do so, through working with clients to explain what their rights are. So get education. Don't just assume things and don't. How would they get educated? Well, there are websites out there that people like myself will write or podcasts that we put out. It's designed to educate you.

Starting point is 00:24:44 So it's free. So do that. The second level you can ratchet up is, you know, talk to an employment attorney. That's what I do. And it doesn't mean you're hiring a lawyer to go sue anybody. I actually my my oath to the client is to preserve your job. And I want you. I'll work behind the scenes and I'll examine everything that happens there. And let's say, for example, we're talking about mental illness here. We'll work to try to create a discussion between you and your manager to ask for reasonable accommodations. Like, you know, you need a flexible work schedule to deal with sometimes when you have an exacerbation of your condition. And the employer is obligated to respond to that and to a point of reasonableness, of course. But asking reasonable accommodations is part of the law. Okay, there are essentially federal, state, and local laws that protect employees from disability discrimination

Starting point is 00:25:33 and provide for a framework to ask for reasonable accommodations. Now, if you get into a situation where you're working behind the scenes with a lawyer and it's just not working out with your employer and you get fired, then you really need to up the ante a little bit and think about approaching your employer to ask for severance negotiation, but using the allegations of discrimination that you have in your fact pattern, which will help you develop, to essentially assert claims, not a lawsuit, but obtain money so you can transition to your next job. Because that's really what my goal is, is to help you transition with money. And we want you,

Starting point is 00:26:11 as a last resort, not to file a lawsuit. And you have to understand, most employers don't want you to file a lawsuit either. So with that knowledge, use this information I've given you to help develop a game plan to address these issues. Once things get really terrible at work and you are fired, there are solutions. And hopefully you're not feeling too stressed hearing this. Okay. Well, hopefully we're not going to get fired today. Right. Right. And I think that we have both recognized that the Surgeon General Report is a big push in the right direction, I think, for understanding stress and mental health and that work contributes to a significant amount of it. But it's just a start, right? Would you agree with that? I agree. And there is a lot to do and

Starting point is 00:27:02 to work on. I talked about small steps such as wellness initiatives in the workplace and Mark, you are talking about what I think is the larger picture of the future of work post-pandemic. And we will definitely continue this conversation about stress and how unhealthy it can be on our well-being and health, the toxic work environments, and how to remedy this bigger topic of the whole employee is what we just coined it. I think we did. So if you feel like you're having a work-related problem that is out of your control, the links to Mark's website and podcast, you'll get a ton of information from his podcast, will be in my show

Starting point is 00:27:47 notes. And you can absolutely reach out and speak to him directly to help you get some peace of mind in your work environment. And to take action steps at work, do you have a wellness committee or wellness initiatives in your workplace? These small steps count. You can reach out to human resources and ask about creating more wellness in your environment. Knowing that chronic stress and health are so closely linked together, I think employers can help people bring their people together through fun activities like healthy online cooking classes. And I will also link my information about that in the show notes. Great. Anything else you want to add? No. We have a lot to talk about. We do. Okay. Okay. Well, I hope you enjoyed this

Starting point is 00:28:44 very important conversation between Heather and myself regarding employee wellness and mental health and a lot of things related to employees and how they're treated by employers. This is a very important subject matter, a crossroads between employee well-being and the way the employers treat employees. And you know that I've been shouting at the rooftops this new agenda that everybody really has been asking about. So Heather and I will be doing further episodes addressing these issues from, again, the perspective of the whole employee because no one else is doing that. And we find it very important to continue that discussion instead of ignoring it. So have a great week. Additional information is in the show notes below. You'll find access to Heather's podcast, the Real Food Stories podcast, a very informative

Starting point is 00:29:39 resource for food, nutrition, and cooking. And we will talk to you next week. Thank you.

Employee Survival Guide® - Workplace Stress and Your Health - Interview With Heather Carey

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.