Fake Doctors, Real Friends with Zach and Donald - Blockbuster Musicals with Jon M. Chu + Myron Kerstein of Wicked

Episode Date: March 25, 2025

Zach and Donald welcome the director and editor of Wicked, Jon M. Chu and Myron Kerstein to the show. We try to get more information on Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dream Coat, what it was like listening to Cynthia Erivo sing, and how Ariana Grande nailed the comedy for the Popular scene. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

My husband cheated on me with two women. He wants to stay together because he has cancer. Should I stay? Okay Sam, that has to be the craziest story in OK Storytime podcast history. Well John, that's because it's dump of week and this user writes, last week we had an attempted break-in. I asked my husband, who was supposed to be at his mom's,

to come over and change the locks, but his mom told me he wasn't with her. And it took me less than an hour to find the first two women he was cheating on me with. Did you leave him? Well, to find out how this story ends, follow the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is John Cameron Mitchell, and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently cancelled. In the future, we will all be cancelled for 15 minutes. But don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism

Spin Class and Mandatory Ayahuascaahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How goes lower?

From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20 comes an all-new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi. What's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to The Hook Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey kids, it's me, Kevin Smith. And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith. That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless, d***less version

of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless D***less Me. I'm the old one. I'm the young one. And every week we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it? A lot of cussing, a lot of bad language. It's for adults only.

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Go ahead. How did this happen? I'm very excited. I think a Zach made it happen. Zach's a dream maker. Listen, for any of you out there, this is like the freaking Avengers infinity saga of guests when it comes to musical theater.

Yeah. This is someone who made it so that when you go to the movies as a straight heterosexual male, nobody's gonna question you for wearing green skin, When you go to the movies as a straight heterosexual male, nobody's gonna question you for wearing green skin, green paint, a hat and a dress. Nobody's gonna question you. This is the man.

I need to know more about how you saw this movie, but okay. This is the man that made it okay for anyone in the audience before Cynthia Arriba goes to her, you know, when it reaches crescendo, as they call it in musical theater, climax. Climax. Allows anyone in the audience to go, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I have to turn down my headphones. Sorry, audience. Ah! This revolutionized theater, from musical movie theater, theater, for 2024, 2025, easily. Well, it's quite a movie and it's a good get. We're also gonna be joined, audience, by Myron Kirstein,

who was nominated for an Academy Award for editing Wicked. The reason we got to John was because Myron has cut most of my movies. He cut Garden State, he cut Wish I Was Here, he cut a movie I made called Going in Style. So we've been friends a very long time and his career has been on the up and up and up. And this is his second Oscar nomination. He's going to get nominated again when Wicked 2 comes out. He was nominated for the Andrew Garfield musical that I loved. What was that called, Joelle?

The Netflix one? No, the one- No, no, no. The one that he got nominated for in the movie theater. Lin-Manuel directed it. Yeah. It sounded like Boom something or- Yeah, Tic Tic Boom. Tic Tic Boom. Oh, I love that movie. That's a great one.

Did Lin-Manuel get nominated for directing that movie by any chance? I don't know, but I bet you Joelle Monique could look it up. He should have. It was a Netflix movie. Oh, okay, yeah. Tic Tic Boom was a Netflix movie.

It was directed by Lin- Oh, that's right. You can get nominated for Netflix movies now. That's right. I forgot about that. I love that movie. By the way, can we digress for a moment? Are y'all watching this new Netflix show called Adolescence?

Is it Adolescence or Adolescence? Adolescence. I've only seen the first episode, but wow. It's intense. Donald, every episode is a oner. And I'm not talking a oner with fake wipes. I'm talking like they choreographed the most insane oners and you get to the end of the episode and you're like,

I cannot believe there has not been a cut. They've been, episode two takes place all around this whole school with like hundreds of kids and they're here and then they're there and then there's a fire drill and then they're chasing one kid and they get them down. And then at the end of the episode Sorry, this is not a spoiler. Maybe it is but at the end of the episode the fucking camera takes flight They clipped it onto a drone and it flies to another location and lands It's I'm gonna put it out there. I

Truly believe that in some ways this can be construed as a winner, but there's no way that they can risk that much money and get to like the last five minutes of the show. They did dude. Somebody go fuck what's my line and them have to be like all right we're taking it from the top. That's what they did. Let's everybody roll out the fucking. That's what they did. I'm already, I'm trying to, there's well you can watch the behind the scenes shit on YouTube. I, I, I, I, I'm trying to watch, there's, well, you can watch the behind the scenes shit on YouTube. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm trying to watch them because as a filmmaker, I'm so obsessed with how they executed this, but also I don't want any spoilers

because I'm only, I'm only two episodes in out of four, but it's, it's the, I mean, they just rehearsed and rehearsed and rehearsed and they, it was like rehearsing a play, except then they started folding in the camera. And it's like the cameraman's like a, like a dancer who basically, I mean, at moments he's just going around.

And then at moments I saw from the behind the scenes, he likes getting on, he like steps onto a golf cart. And then the golf cart takes it a tracking shot. And then, I mean, the pilot- It's all done on Steadicam, obviously. No, it's not Steadicam. It's a, it's a gimbal. It's all done on Steadicam, obviously. No, it's not Steadicam. It's a gimbal. It's a handheld gimbal.

But it's, I mean, first of all, the technical production aspects of it are one thing, but also it's brilliantly acted. And it's the number one show on Netflix. I really, really recommend it to everybody. Amazing. How's everybody doing? We haven't been together in so long. I miss y'all. Amazing. How's everybody doing?

We haven't been together in so long. I miss y'all. You've been working, man. You've been working up a storm. I've been directing Han Solo. I don't know if he likes people calling him that. I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to be honest with you.

If I met him and I was like, I mean, I have met him, but if when I saw him, I was like, holy shit, Han Solo, he'd be like, I will never be friends with that kid. He wouldn't like that from you, no. I don't think he likes that from you. I've been directing Han Solo. Well, I don't say, I wouldn't say that to Han, but if you ever call him, sometimes I call him, I'll say something like, okay, Mr. Ford, you're standing here.

And he goes, Mr. Ford's my father. I love it. I love that Harrison Ford is still like, I'm a young man. You call me funny. So at the moment, like this is my senior. There was this moment where something was broken on the set, like a piece of molding or something. And the grips are trying to put back in place. He goes, let me do it.

And he starts kicking it. He goes, let me do it. And he starts kicking it. He goes, I was a carpenter. He's like one of the most famous. He's like one of the most famous former carpenters in the history of carpentry. Him and Jesus, him and Jesus. Yeah. One of the most famous. Did you know that Han Solo was a carpenter before he became Han Solo?

That's the that's the thing. Harrison Ford was a carpenter. He was actually laying freaking with siding in the in the in the office when he was asked to audition. Every human being on the planet is like, yo, maybe I can Harrison Ford it someday. Him. Daniel Day-Lewis, most famous shoemaker other than freaking John Madden, freaking most famous. I say John Madden because John Madden stole so many shoe ideas, but I'm not saying Daniel Day-Lewis, but my point is,

all I got to do is read Daniel's face. Daniel's face is always the one. Yeah, well, Daniel's a good read. I can't hide my emotions. Daniel's a good read for when you say something that we don't know what you're talking about. Daniel's face tells us that we don't know what you're talking about. But so anyway, yeah, I've been directing Shrinking.

It's so fun. I just really like the cast. Everyone's so cool. It's such a good show. Everybody who loves the show, you're gonna be blown away by season three. It's really, really good. Really fun. Did you get on the pit set? I know that was a goal of yours.

I did. I got a tour of the pit set. How was it? You know, it's incredible because it's enormous. It's a huge, huge set of an ER. And what they do is they, everything is controlled. They don't bring in any film lights. Everything is practical lighting within the hospital set. And so the way they shoot the show, they choreograph it and then they don't wait on almost every other thing that's made, you then go and light it

and bring in lights on stands and flags and all sorts of things to shape and cut the light. But on this show they don't do that at all. Everything is lit from the actual practical lights that are built into the ER set. So it's really cool from someone who's a geek of film production, it was a cool thing to see. If you're the, not the D, I guess the DP, how do you, it's just camera setups then, that's it. It is, I think like, you do not have a lighting department?

Yeah, every single thing, I'm sure they have some lighting guys on, in case they have to adjust something, but everything's in the lighting board. So if they want more light on the person, they'll just bring up the dimmer on that little area, you know, almost like a play. I think then they told me they have a couple

of little cheat tricks they do where they can, they can sort of snap something into one of those ceiling lights and that, and that will bring light further down. There's all these little things, but it's just really, really incredible. And what a great show that is, if you're not watching The Pit,

that's just fucking incredible. My mind's going crazy right now, because all I can think of is, is that what we're gonna do when and if we do Scrubs? I really hope so, by the way, Donald, because it gives you so much more time to, particularly the stuff that's just hospital, like if, and Scrubs, when you get into fantasies

and all that stuff, of course that's different, but, and specialty shots, but you know, Scrubs, the camera is such a character, whereas this is, whereas the pit, it's made to feel almost like a documentary. But I gotta tell you, when we're just doing straight, if and when it happens, and we're just doing straight hospital stuff,

we'd have so much more time in your day to not be waiting for all these lighting setup changes. So I would love to convince whomever the DP is to do it that way. I guess it would come from Bill. Bill would just hire someone to say, do it that way. You took the tour on your own or you and Bill went? How'd it go?

No, so, you know, Shrinking also has just incredible sets. For those of you who love the show, all of those interiors are sets. They have houses in the real world that are the exteriors, but the office set, Liz's house, Jimmy's house, just Gabby's house, all of the big interiors are all built huge sets on stage. And the construction coordinator,

sorry, there's an ambulance, I'm in New York City. The construction, the head of construction for Shrinking also did the pit. And he was like, someone told me you liked the pit. I go, yeah, man, can I get a tour of the set? Cause they're not shooting right now, but the set is so massive, they left it up. And he's like, of course.

So he arranged for me to get a whole tour and I thought it was just gonna be him, but he brought like the art director, the production designer, and like they gave me this amazing walkthrough. They were so kind. That's awesome. They gave me merch.

They gave me fucking pit merch. I got a pit ski hat. Ah! Ooh. That's how you know you're on a hit show. When they're like, listen, we're just gonna keep the sets up for the summer. We're gonna keep it up for the whole year.

We're gonna just rent out the stage. The stage is ours. Don't even worry about it. We're just gonna leave it up. whole year. We're gonna just rent out the stage. The stage is ours. Don't even worry about it. We're just gonna leave it up. That's how you know you're coming back next year. Yeah. Well, some of these sets are just, I mean, it's crazy. One of the Shrinking's big sets, they moved stages.

And when you see this thing, you're like, I can't believe the amount of work it must have taken to fucking take this all down and put it back up on a different soundstage. It's really, really cool. There's some great work happening on that show. Really good stuff. Can we get into a little bit of Star Wars? Yeah, but let's keep it brief because we love all those things. All of us love all those things, but... Have you seen... This is how long it's been. Have you seen the trailer for Andor? Yeah. No. Are we not ready for this? But have you seen we this is how long it's been. Have you seen the trailer for and or yeah, no

We're not ready for this this should have you seen the most recent trailer for and or yeah Okay It's delightful I'm very excited I was curious about the Pumping circumstance of the first trailer where they were like all the critics love, but I get that they're trying to get people to see it. Disney recently released, I think, all the episodes on YouTube, or at the very least, the pilot is available on YouTube. They're like, please, for love of God, watch season one and come check out season two. So they believe in it. I'm excited about it.

This looks like it looks more Star Wars than anything I've seen in a really like it looks like it looks like they made the Empire Strikes Back again. But we get battles from rebels in this. It's about to be really good. Like they made the Empire Strikes Back again, dude. Like that's what it looks like. At least that's what it looks like to me. The color tone, all of that stuff. Are you excited about Thunderbolts?

You know, I'm gonna be honest with you. Go ahead, be honest. I just, right now Marvel is putting out things that I'm gonna be honest with you. Go ahead, be honest. I just, right now Marvel is putting out things that I'm, I'm excited for Fantastic Four, let's put it that way. We'll see you, Margot. Okay. Joelle, are you excited for Thunderbolts? I am, here's why.

Marvel has had a bit of a, it's been rough over there, we can't lie, but it's clear they believe in this film. It's clear that Disney is trying to do some new stuff. They have a wild wonky schedule for Andor. They were like, listen, a 24 freaks, you all love cinema. Come see this is going to be movies in a big way here. So that makes me excited. Plus, you know, we we got love for Florence in this house.

She she's talented. There's a lot of good names up in there. So I'm I'm well, I thought I don't know if they did it off of they cut that trailer. There was basically like this is an eight twenty four movie. And I I thought that was really clever. I don't know if it, you know, I thought that was really good marketing because that kind of went to viral. Mm hmm.

There's no way this movie is going to is a twenty four. This ship and halfway through. But you do see the trailer I'm talking about. There's no way this movie is gonna is a 24. This shit and halfway through the movie. But you do see the trailer I'm talking about? Absolutely halfway through the movie, everybody's gonna be like, holy shit. This is like more special effects than any of this. This is an Avengers movie.

This is an Avengers level movie. But I think the level of marketing was we didn't just high. I mean, I'm just seeing what they're selling and they're saying, we hired a lot of people from all of these A24 movies that you love and these are the people executing this particular Marvel movie. It might be a bit different because it's been made

by these people. I think that's a bonus, if anything, to- Yeah, so do they, that's why they're cutting trailers about it. Yeah. And I will say this also. I feel like, and this is me predicting the future, I feel like this universe is dying. And that's why the colors are starting

to turn into this also. I think we're going to experience a new reality in the cinematic Marvel universe to combine all of these characters within the next five years. I think that's where this is going. Well, let me tell you something. I think you can bet on Florence Pugh. Anytime. I will bet on her anytime, any day, anywhere. If you're gonna buy stock, you can buy stock in Florence Pugh. That's a safe bet. That is a safe bet.

When is this gonna air this episode, Joel? Because my event is coming up. Next Tuesday. Okay, well my event for the Midnight Mission, which is a celebration of the music from the Garden State soundtrack 20 years later is coming up. This weekend. March 29th. Oh my goodness.

That's this weekend, buddy. That's not this weekend. That's next weekend. Please. I got a lot to do. That's this weekend, buddy. That's not this weekend. That's next weekend. Please. I got a lot to do. It's this weekend. When people listen, it'll be this weekend. You dumbass. It's this weekend when people are listening. You dumbass. And I wanted to pass folks. I wanted to make sure everyone knows that if you're unable to come, we've partnered with the company called Veeeps.com, V-E-E-P-S.com, and you can buy the stream of the show starting April 6, which is my birthday.

And thanks to our good pals at T-Mobile, every single cent of the money you spend to buy the stream goes directly to the Midnight Mission, which is really, really cool. Great time. Because these things all cost a lot of money. directly to the Midnight Mission, which is really, really cool. Because these things all cost a lot of money. So to be able to have T-Mobile offset the production cost so that every cent of you buying the stream from anywhere in the world, anywhere in the world goes directly to the Midnight Mission.

So check it out. We're going to have a lot of special guests, including spoiler for you, podcast listeners only, Donald Faison. I will be there. Thunderous applause, Daniel. Thunderous applause, Daniel. You know who else is going to be there? I'm going to spoil another one for the podcast audience.

Sarah Chalk. Oh, it's going down. I have a feeling there's going to be a whole lot of scrubs people at this event. They are, they're all coming, but only you two are gonna be on stage introducing a band with me. Nice. Is there gonna be a teleprompter?

There will be a teleprompter, but I'm also going to write your- We can go up the cuff. We can go up the cuff if you want. Well, you know the bit we're gonna do. I'm gonna talk about how you said, are there any black people in this movie? Right. And then about how you said, are there any black people in this movie? Right. And then I'm going to say, are there any black people in this at this concert?

No, don't do that. Please don't do that. Can I do that? No, I can't do that. OK, damn. No, I don't think that's funny. There goes that joke. That's why I don't want you going off the cuff. That's why I don't. That's why I don't want you going off the cuff, bro. You're sticking to the script.

Of all people that are gonna be on that stage, I need you to be sticking to the prompter. Why? Because you go rogue and say stupid shit. That's not stupid, it's a good question. Remember when Doja Cat left you hanging? Yeah, I do remember that. That was me going rogue and doing some stupid shit.

I should've stuck to the script. We introduced a Doja Cat at some event and he went to like do like a high five with her and she didn't see him. She wasn't like being rude, but then Donald left his hand up there and you didn't know what to do with it. So then he started high fiving it himself.

It was so cringe. No, I high fived too, that's all. I high fived too. You didn't, I didn't high five yourself. I pointed to it. Oh, you pointed. And then you hit it. Yeah, don't even try it.

It was cringe though. Sometimes I think about that. Yeah, that's called not sticking to the script. Yeah, that's sometimes I think about that in the shower and I shiver. No you don't. But I, it would be real. When Doja Cat left you hanging.

I know you would shiver. I know you would shiver if I said that shit about how many black people are performing at your show. You'd be like, that'd be, 20 weeks later in the shower. Oh God, I remember that time. Please don't say anything that's gonna make me shiver. I don't like it when you go off script. I'm gonna put your lines in the prompter

in bold with an underline. Sarah's gonna get a regular font. You're gonna get bold and underlined. No. Wait, okay. Is John Chu here? He is, yes, we have both guests here. Is Myron Kirstein here? Both of them. Myron Kirstein. Oh my God, I'm nervous. Is John Chu here? He is. Yes, we have both guests here. Is Myron Kirstein here? Both of them.

Myron Kirstein. Oh my God, I'm nervous. What are we doing? I'm nervous. Donald, don't embarrass me. I'm not going to embarrass you. I wish you had a teleprompter right now. First question, how do I get in your next movie?

No, don't do that. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, 7, 8 I've heard some stories about a show we made About a bunch of docs and nurses and a janitor who loved the hate

I said, here's a story that everyone should know So gather round to hear our Gather round to hear our Scrubs Rewatch show with Zach and Donald Holy shit! Holy shit! Yeah, it's real! Oh my god!

I can't believe we did this! This is the best thing ever! Oh my god, there they are. Okay, listen you guys, I've been prompted to be chill. I've been prompted to be chill and not act crazy, but we have freaking cinema royalty, in my opinion, in the motherfucking house. Wow. You guys.

Good to see you all. Good to see you. Welcome Myron and John. That's our engineer, Daniel, and our producer, Joelle. And I know you know there are a lot of fans of the movie Wicked, but probably the number one fan in the universe Up there is Donald Faison right there Who who has already a song some of the songs for our audience before you've joined us?

I said I wouldn't do it when you're on the air. I'm not gonna embarrass myself. Listen, we need to stop now Just Zach proceed because I'm gonna, I feel it coming. It's coming. You just calm down. It's coming up. It's coming up. I love it. John, I'll be the more calm voice and say,

Donald and I love musicals. And that's one thing we've shared in common since the day we met. It's funny because he's into sports and so many, and Marvel and Star Wars and so many things I'm not into. And, but one thing we overlap with is our just love of musicals and we both from the bottom of our hearts

think you did the most fantastic job with this movie. Both of you did an amazing job. I'm gonna get to Myron, I'm starting with John. Myron, I'm gonna get to, but John, I just think you absolutely crushed it. I loved it. It was my favorite movie of last year. Thank you, I appreciate that.

Appreciate that. And it's been a long time coming for all of us to be together. I mean, I've heard stories of you for so long from Myron. He's given me all the secrets of how you've done things. So it's been perfect. I trained him. So for those of you who don't know,

I think I mentioned it briefly in the intro, but Myron cut Garden State and he was really, you know, just an absolutely incredible editor, but particularly with music. I mean, the reason so much of what worked in Garden State with music was because of Myron and how he plays songs. And I was just thinking the other day, Myron,

of how, you know, I had always imagined that ecstasy party scene to be like something like that, but I just didn't know how the hell we were gonna execute it. And I remember you came to set one day, it was so long ago, I think you may have even brought like a VHS tape and put it in my trailer in the VHS player.

And I just was so floored. I was like, oh my God, I never thought it was gonna be as good as that. So Myron, from the very beginning of me meeting him, has been someone so gifted with music and heart. So you guys are such a perfect marriage for each other because this is like the epitome. I mean, a movie cannot get bigger

when it comes to music and heart than what you guys made. Oh, that's so nice. And you know, the only reason, because we got paired together, I never, on Crazy Rich Asians, I was looking for another editor and someone suggested him. And the one credit that brought him into my life was Garden State, 100%.

Seeing, I mean, obviously that soundtrack became a part of my life, that movie became a part of my life was Garden State, 100%. Seeing, I mean, obviously that soundtrack became a part of my life, that movie became a part of my life. I was like right in the pocket of who you were speaking to in that. And so it's been, and it awoke me to different artists and things like that. So, and how you can make a movie where music is,

and it's using the power of music, which is where it says so much more than what words ever could, and it can be expressed cinematically, visually in ways, and in cuts, in ways that no other medium can do. So it was really- Was music always a part of your life?

Because you, I'm sorry to ask, I know you've been on a mega press tour, and some of these questions you've been asked a zillion times, so I promise I have sorry to ask, I know you've been on a mega press tour and some of these questions you've been asked a zillion times, so I promise I have some original ones, but it's hard not to ask you as someone who's so gifted. I mean, you started with dance, right? With the dance movie. Yeah, yeah.

And then, and then step up. And then, but like how, was it always, are you a dancer? Do you dance at all? No, I mean, I've taken dance when I was a kid. How did you get in, how did like, how did like step up land? Like, how did you know you were the right guy for that? Well, I grew up in the Bay Area and I'm the youngest of five kids

and my parents are immigrants from China and they wanted all us kids to be as Americanized as possible so they could be the opposite of what they came when they came here, because they didn't speak a word of English So they put us in dance classes. I took tap for 12 years I because I had to be with my sisters basically when they were taking it. I took drums saxophone violin guitar I'm not good at any of these things, but I took it and every weekend my parents would take us to the theater in San Francisco

And every weekend my parents would take us to the theater in San Francisco. Musical season, opera season, ballet season, like we would be there all the time. Of course we'd watch movies all the time. TV was always on in our house. So it was just sort of a part of me. And when I started actually working with the camera and editing with my little VHS camera at that time, all my friends were dancers or musicians. And so, I was the guy with the camera. And so, that's where I was sort of theater kid adjacent. I was part of theater, but not great at it. But I knew them well enough that I could try to communicate what I knew from the film side into what they wanted to say. And that's where it sort of all started.

And for Step Up, that came to me, and I did not wanna do it because it was a direct-to-DVD movie, and I called my mom, I was like, I can't have my first movie be a direct-to-DVD movie. I was discovered by Spielberg from my student short, like this is not right, and my mom's like, when did you become a snob?

She's like, if you are a storyteller, you can tell a story in any medium, in any way, you could be by a campfire, you could be in a car, like prove yourself. And I was like, you're right, I'm gonna make the best direct-to-DVD dance movie sequel of all time. And that's where it all sort of started. And you did, right?

And then they changed it to not go direct-to-DVD, right? Yeah, it became theatrical. Two weeks after I joined and I repitched it in a way that I thought a dance movie should be, instead of five numbers, I wanted 13, and all these other things. Disney, who distributed the first movie, came around and was like, hey, let's listen to your pitch.

And 20 minutes later They're like we have a slot, but it's in nine months. Can you get it done in nine months and we did Wow A lot of the kids from that movie went on to do several of the sequels too Oh, yeah that and are very and are looked at as high levels in the dance community Also, do you still use any of them when you're doing other projects? Yeah, I mean, amazingly, one of our actors in it, Christopher Scott, is one of the dancers in it. He plays this bit part. He auditioned for us in Baltimore, because that's where he's from.

He came back after shooting, and we all became friends because we're all young. We're all, it was our first movies, and he would just hang out at the edit room, and now he's the choreographer of Wicked, and he choreographed In the Heights, and so I watched him transition from dancer to choreographer. He watched how I pitched movies, and I taught him how to use certain things in Photoshop and Keynote and whatever,

and he used those skills to get his first choreography jobs, and so now we get to work together. It's really fun. Well, the choreography in this movie was just absolutely incredible. I mean, what has it been, we have so many questions for you, but how does it feel when you watch these kids

and all these videos of people doing the choreography? Like it's meant, this movie has meant so much to people of so many different ages. I mean, we're 50 years old and we're walking around singing it. And then you've got the little kids walking around, you know, doing the dance moves on TikTok. I mean, it just must be so gratifying for you guys.

That's the best. It's the best. And Myron and I share, you know, we're texting each other videos, TikTok videos back and forth of people doing it. You know, we all, you all, especially as storytellers, we want our stories to be seen and to be accepted and for them people to like dig in even deeper

and learn the choreography. I mean, that's how I learned watching all the Michael Jackson videos and, you know, recording it, recording MTV on my VCR, just watching it over and over and over again, studying, like to me, that's like, that's the ultimate goal from it. So he does, so when you just,

if we can just begin to break down, well, first of all, I just wanted to say, how did it come to Cynthia and Ariana? I'm sure every woman of who's the right age and can sing audition for you, both famous and not famous. We can tell why you chose them because they're both absolutely brilliant.

But what was that process like? Did you, I read in my notes that you initially thought you'd hire unknowns. Yeah, I thought Wicked was big enough that we could actually like break somebody. And I didn't want anything sort of dictating how the movie should feel or be because there's some big star or the studio wanted that.

And so when I came in, it was very clear that studio knew that Wicked could be big enough that we could do that. And so that was sort of the, whoever's best for this. And in my head, it was like, well, we're gonna discover someone so wicked is its own thing. And of course you're getting, we got inundated with calls from everyone around town

to come and we said, there's no offers, everyone has to come in and read. And everyone starts at the same spot. And we saw a lot of people and all really, really good. I mean, everyone prepared, everyone was so amazing. But you know, there's a moment where someone just takes it from your lap. And we had been down the road of seeing a lot

and sort of debating. What we realized is, you know, we had to get experienced people because these songs are way more difficult than I thought they were. When people come in, their voices are breaking, I mean, the range is huge. They're double black diamond songs.

Absolutely. You know, I have a funny memory, just to digress for a moment. I was reading in New York at Bernie Telsey's casting office. I don't know if Bernie cast this, did he? Bernie did, yeah. For those of you who don't know, Bernie Telsey is by far the biggest Broadway casting

director, particularly musicals. He's almost got a monopoly on Broadway musical casting and he's a brilliant guy. And I was auditioning, this was many years ago, but I was auditioning for the production of Angels in America. And next to me in the next rehearsal studio, they were auditioning women to replace Alphaba.

And- To replace Nadel Nazim? No, not Nadel Nazim And- To replace Nadel Nazim? No, not Adel Nazim. This was after Adel Nazim. Okay, got it, got it, got it, got it, got it. I think it may have been for a tour. I don't know the specifics. All they know is that while I was waiting,

they have gotten this down to such a science that they really just have them come in and these girls were just, women were walking in and they were like, basically like, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah! It was basically, it may have been like, it may have been like two bars before the note. I don't know. But, but it was brutal because they were just like, next, next, next.

Next. And I was shocked how many of these women walked into this audition, like, you know if you can hit it or not. Why the fuck are you even here? Why are you here? Why are you here? There's that one chance that God will bless me right now at this moment and it'll come out the exact way it needs to be.

I have never hit it before, but I will hit it at Bernie Chelsea's casting office. Yeah, it was an intimidating lobby because you could hear everybody going for it. And that would be any, if you're an actor walking in and we did not just say you had to be able to sing I mean you this is a movie and so we needed them to be able to act and the camera need to be able to be two inches from their face and give layers to this character and not be imitation of what we've seen before but something fresh and new so there's a lot to ask of them and there are people who were like you know what it don't even worry about the the big notes.

Just go do what you can. If you fail, it's all good. There's things we can do that can help. But when those two ladies came in, it was just like they had the full package. They had all the notes. Cynthia can hit that note. Hold up, but you know it's intimidating.

When Cynthia Arebo, who is known for singing very well and killing it and is known for being such a phenomenal actress, had to walk into the audition with a blanket tied around her neck and a damn broom. From the 99 cent store. From the 99 cent store to freaking get a leg up on this audition, man. You know it's real in the field.

When somebody who is accomplished as she is. I would like to walk into audition rooms with the confidence of Cynthia Reville walking into Sing Defying Gravity because she must have been like, I got this. No, man, she walked in with a blanket and a broom. What are you talking about? Let me clarify that.

I think that was like a jacket that she had on earlier. She had taken that off, because we sang Wizard and I first. And she was singing opposite another big actor. And that actor was like, you know, she was like awestruck by Cynthia. She's like, you know, she just sang at a sold out Disney concert hall last night at like 9 p.m. and she's here this morning.

She's like, you know how many people would pay for tickets to be sitting here in this room right now to watch her sing Defying Gravity? And so already you could feel that vibe. And she sang Wizard and I first. And when she sang those first words, did that really just happen? She became a little girl.

She became not the Cynthia Rvo on the big stage of the sold out show. She became a dreamer in their dorm room. And I felt so connected with that little girl singing and then watched her grow in that song to hit those final notes that it was very clear very quickly that she was our Alphaba. You must've been so excited. I mean, when I'm auditioning people, people think, people don't know this, but you're really quite nervous. You don't know if you're gonna find the person.

You know, you're like, I hope we find the person. And when she performed, you must've been like, oh my God, we found the person. Hold up. Absolutely. You mean you got, how often is it that directors and production settles and says, you know what? We didn't find a person, but we found somebody close enough to just tell this story.

How often does that happen? Hold on. This opens up a new conversation for me. Well, I don't know if it's settling. Cause now it makes you feel like, oh, I got the part, but there's a possibility that I wasn't right for it, but. Because now it makes you feel like, oh, I got the part, but there's a possibility that I wasn't right for it, but they just settled because they could tell the story now. I don't know if it's settling.

We're at a time and for me, I might can only speak for me, not John, but we're at a time and this person is great. They might not be exactly what I pictured, but maybe they'll be better than I could have imagined, but we need to go and we need is great. They might not be exactly what I pictured, but maybe they'll be better than I could have imagined, but we need to go and we need to start. Now that's, you know, what John and Myron are engaged in is something that's 18 months of pre-production.

So you certainly have a whole lot more time to make sure you find the right person for your gargantuan movie. But there's always a leap of faith. There's always like a section that you're like, well, I think that I have confidence they can get there in these areas because they haven't dug into obviously the text and all that stuff.

So it's always just a little bit of like, trust your instincts. Myron, how often are you like, look, all right, it's good, but I can fix it in post. Don't worry about it. I'll fix it. I can fix this. Don't worry about it.

You're like freaking Scotty in a lot of ways. You're asking him to answer that in front of two directors that he's worked for. When I get your dailies, Donald, I'm always like, I could fix this. I don't worry about it. Right. You become Scotty. I'm giving it all I can, Captain. Now, what I love is that every actor is bringing on the day and then I'm there to be the that every actor is bringing on the day and then I'm there to be the next collaborator to bring my own take to it and everyone's going to do the best job. And what was so nice about Wicked is that I was privy to see some of these auditions. So it was a real gift to see John's process.

And then when you did see Cynthia and Ari step in, you're like, oh my God, this is on another level. And, you know, of course I think that, you know, there's a different version of every movie with a different cast in there. But then when you actually see it together, you're like, oh, this was inevitable. This is exactly what it's supposed to be.

Let's take a break. We'll be right back after these fine words. Is this a good time? It's me, Dylan Mulvaney, and my dear friend, Joe Locke from Heartstopper and Agatha All Along is my very first guest on my brand new podcast, The Dylan Hour. It's musical mayhem and it is going to be so much fun. I like a man. I like a man. You like a man. What do I like, Joe? You like a man too. We often-

We have quite a similar- There's some cross-pollination happening in here. Not like- No! Have we? No. No. Not yet. Never say never.

I cannot wait for all you girls, gays, and theys to join me on this extremely special pink confection of a podcast. There is so much darkness in this world and what I think we could all use more of is a little joy. Listen to the Dylan Hour on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Love ya. My husband cheated on me with two women.

He wants to stay together because he has cancer. Should I stay? Okay Sam, that has to be the craziest story in OK Storytime podcast history. Well, John, that's because it's dumpin' week and this user writes, my partner told me when we first got together that he has cancer.

He's currently living with his mom while he is in recovery so that it takes the pressure off me caring for both him and her baby until he's well enough to move into our new home with us. So far. Well, last week we had attempted break-in. I asked my husband who was supposed to be at his mom's to come over and change locks, but he wouldn't.

Then his mom told me he wasn't with her. I went to Facebook and it took me less than an hour to find the first two women he was cheating on me with. Oh, what else is he lying about? Well, one thing my paranoia just wouldn't let up was about the cancer in his treatments. I asked his mom about it, who told me he doesn't have cancer. She also informed me he was in rehab, not the hospital.

He suffered from addiction and was trying to recover for me and our baby. Did she leave him? Well, to find out how the story ends, listen and follow the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab

for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes, but don't worry. We'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class, and mandatory Ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing.

Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? Ow, goes lower? From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20

comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. And Santi was gone. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi. And what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Hmm, pillow talk. The most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out of his element hero as he engages in a series of ill-conceived,

investigative hookups. Mama always used to say, God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And, as I was about to learn, no amount of showering can wash your hands of a bad hookup. Now, take a big whiff, my brah. Listen to The Hookup on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. The show is at Dandano. Did you guys always plan to have it be two films? I wanted to ask you that. Was that from the get-go or because I'm so glad you did because it's so much movie, the idea of trying to cram that whole story into one,

but was that always a plan? Well, when I came in, they had been developing scripts, many scripts for the past, I don't know, 20 years before I ever came in. And those scripts weren't ready. And the big question was, can you make this into one movie? And so when I stepped in, the debate was already in progress. And for me, it was like, if you are debating this,

then you're never gonna make two great movies. You're always gonna be in between and you might as well just shove it all into one and that's a whatever, four and a half, five hour movie. Or if you're gonna get it into, let's say you wanna get into a three hour movie, that is, you're ripping out half the songs. And then is that wicked?

And it became very clear, it was, there was almost no question that in order to do wicked properly, you needed to break it up. And then we needed to make that decision fast. Usually when you come in as a director and something's been sort of half developed, then you have about two weeks as the honeymoon period,

you can do whatever you want. And so I knew you have to make big bold choices right from the beginning and that choice of, I don't want, we're not gonna debate this anymore. Two movies, let's focus in to make each movie the best singular movie we can and every piece of architecture that we need to do in this story in order to make that happen is what we need to do

and that's what we need to be focusing on. Of course, in the back of my mind, I'm always like, well, we're gonna shoot two. If it's better to be one movie, then we'll figure that out later. But we had to make bold, very specific choices, intentional choices from the very beginning. So that's where it started.

Can I ask to say something? Yes. Something that I really loved about the movie. You don't have to raise your hand, it's your podcast. Well, you know, sometimes I do. You like to talk too. So what I really loved is that you didn't shy away from the fantasy part of this story.

And a lot of people focus mainly on, okay, let's focus on the music, let's focus on the dancing, usually when musicals are made, let's focus on that part. And then the part that's always left out is either the surrounding area, how the story looks, or the heart. And you tackled all of them at once. And that was, for me, as a moviegoer, like he said earlier, I love Star Wars, I love Marvel,

and it was great to see all of those genres, but flipped upside down with music coming through also. And you don't really see, you never see that to be honest with you. Even the biggest movie musical before this, it didn't have it. I think it was, what was it? Greece? Is that the, you know what I mean?

It has numbers, but it's relying on the dance. It's relying on the singing and everything like that. You have great performances and musical numbers, but the movie also hits fantasy dead on and I really, really appreciate it. As a fantasy lover, I really appreciated that. And so that's one of the reasons why this movie sticks with me so well.

It's like I'm going to see Star Wars, but I'm also getting a nice show out of it too, a good song and dance out of it too. That's great. I think because also, like I said, I'm theater adjacent, theater kid adjacent. I'm not, I didn't come from theater, so I am definitely of the film side,

and yet I love it. Those are my friends, those are my family. That's where I enjoy watching stories, and so I think we could bridge that gap. There was a funny thing, and I realized with Wicked, that oh, this was a property that has opportunities to do the thing that no other musical could do. The world of Oz was as important as the music of Wicked and that we were bringing cinema

lovers back to a world that they had fallen in love with cinema, maybe in the first place, and that there was a great responsibility with that. And at a time after COVID, cinemas were hurting and at a time when people are doubting the scope and scale of what cinema can do. And we're at a time where representation is such an important thing and in works of timeless art that if we could incorporate a physically disabled actor, truly disabled,

playing a disabled person in there. We could have people of all shapes, size, colors, ages, and have the music as not as a separate piece, but as a integral part of the expression of that in a timeless world. And by the way, that timeless fantasy world may be one of the first that has accessible ramps for the characters

and things like that, that we can do that and we, and, cause ultimately the story is digging at truth. If we could, if these actors could portray the truth, and of course Myron digging that out, then we had something that was very unique in Wicked, that I had never gotten that opportunity. I think he's, I love what you said, and from my perspective, I don't go to these,

most of the blockbusters with these budgets and these scale of production, they're not made for me. This was the first movie in a long time I can remember where I thought, oh, I get to enjoy the spectacle that Donald gets to see in these Marvel movies that he enjoys, but in a world that's interesting to me. I mean, I can't think of a movie that... Yeah, I'm reiterating what you're saying

that gives me, a musical theater lover, scope and scale and fantasy and just, I mean, I can segue into this into a question. You built so much of these sets practically. Just, I mean, I can segue into this into a question. You built so much of these sets practically. I mean, this could have been such a, it wouldn't have been nearly as beautiful if this had been a green screen so much as a green screen. I know obviously you have some green screen in there,

but you built so many practical sets. Was that hard to convince the studio to spend the money on building those worlds? Because I know you built some pretty epic sets, was that hard to convince the studio to spend the money on building those worlds? Because I know you built some pretty epic sets, we can tell from watching the movie. Yeah, I mean, it still goes till today. You know, the amount of money it takes to mount Oz is a lot. And the commitment it takes, I mean, today is a lot easier

than it was five months ago. But when we were building these sets, it was very, that was part of the concept. You know how I said, like, you get two weeks to do whatever you want. Like, what I knew is I had to sell this idea that in order to have us revisit Oz, that we had to take the physical attributes

of Wizard of Oz, of the 1939 movie, and break the matte painting. And actually, if this movie was about truth, then we needed to believe that this place actually exists, that it was not in a dream. And so that the grass had to be real, the walls had to be high, the physicality of it had to be there.

And so we wanted this, I always sold this, like Lawrence of Arabia, as Cleopatra, as one of those things that we only get once in our lifetime to really build. And so by pushing that hard in those first two weeks, I sort of held their feet to the fire every time questions would come. And then you get someone like Nathan Crowley,

our amazing production designer, who is a big troublemaker, builds, loves to build. He worked with Nolan for many years and did Greatest Showman. And he's the one who was like, John, we're gonna plant nine million tulips. John, we're going to build the train and it's gonna move.

John, we're gonna make that lake in front of the school. And I was like, they're gonna kill us, Nathan. And he's like, you don't worry, you just keep moving and we'll make it happen. He's like, by the way, the tulips are already planted. So there'll be no choice. I love a guy like that.

I love someone like that. Do you think it's because it's wicked that people feel this way? Like wicked changed Broadway. You know, there are not a lot of shows that come into Broadway and are sold out for two years straight. I think Wicked was, what's the other one

that Josh Gad was a part of? The Book of Mormon is another movie that was sold out for, you couldn't get tickets for two years. Do you think the response that you're getting from all of these other creatives that you are collaborating with is because it's such a special piece? Is that-

Absolutely, absolutely. I think it was on multiple fronts. I would think of course Wicked the show, the work that Kristen, Adina, Joe, all these people did on the. We prefer to call her Adele, I'm sorry. Yes, sorry, yes, yes. Adele de Zime.

Adele de Zime. The work that they did was huge, obviously, lifting. I mean, it said it, it only allowed us to do what we could do. What we did was huge, obviously, lifting. It said it only allowed us to do what we could do. What we were able to do is then take that and use them as excuses to then crank it up and to actually build it into a cinematic world, which is a very different thing.

But absolutely, Steven Schwartz, Winnie Holtzman, everybody who worked on that show for 20 years, who honed those jokes, who honed those jokes, who honed the thing, they deserve huge amounts of credit because you don't get this kind of opportunity without the show itself, of course. Right, no doubt. Let me ask you something. I was wondering, just as an example with the library dance sequence, so you built this insane set that is just so beautiful and then you have choreography

that's specific to the moving library stacks which was and stunt people and I literally watched behind the scenes stuff. That's the level of geeking out I've done. But how do you, how, what's the chicken or the egg with that? Does your production designer say, hey, John, what if there were these circular spinning library stacks? And then you go to the choreographer, okay, what could you do with that? How did that, just as an example, evolve? Because I've never directed anything,

even with choreographers, well, maybe one tiny thing with choreography, but I've always wondered how you as a director evolved something like that. Yeah, it's, well, I have some amazing collaborators, of course, and we've done this for many years. So we have a process, and this may not work for everybody, but for us, Myron's in on that process, Alice, our DP, is in on that process,

Chris Scott, our choreographer, who I've known for so long, is in on that process. By the way, Alice, our DP, I've worked with since college. So she shot my college musical. So we can get in a room, and usually the script is very basic in terms of the description of what's happening within the dance. I ask them not to go too into detail, because I then take all the pieces and I'll break them out and start to sort of, I don't know, just sort of riff off of what I think could happen.

And I'm there with Chris. And so then Chris adds onto that and says, well, and this is all just part of the discussion, well, what if you did that? What if everything is circular? We start with like the themes of the movie, okay. So Oz is everything is circular, everything's been constructed to be perfect circles, and yet in order to be a perfect group, the cracks need to happen, the sharp edges, the Z in

Oz needs to happen, and that's where Elphaba comes in. So, at Shiz, everything has been perfectly circled, we need to create some cracks in that, and this is where the young generation first need to create some cracks in that. And this is where the young generation first starts to let loose in their movement. So Chris starts to work on what movement could look like. And then when I bring up this, what if this is turning bookshelves?

We knew that everything in Oz had to be bespoke, had to be a little bit delightful. If the wizard's sort of whole plan is to distract people with delight so they didn't have to worry about, and they could always feel happy and didn't have to worry about worry or any of that, then he could be in full control. So, okay, let's make the bookshelves not straight but delightfully circular. And of course, when that starts to spin, we had done in The Heights a spinning number on a fire escape.

We had just experienced that. So what if this whole thing was circular? What if there's a little nod to 2001? What if it had all these elements to it? We wanted to do nods to American movies because we were also sort of kicking the tires on the American story. So there was this idea that how would the dancers do that?

And so then we have to convince this. So I pitch it to our group, all our heads of departments, and we have boards that Alice and I work on. We don't know any actual choreography yet. Chris doesn't even know what the dancers are able to do in a spinning wheel because he doesn't have a spinning wheel to actually, he doesn't know if he needs to hire parkour people, gymnasts, or b b-boys or whatever, or combination.

And so then our engineers start to build our physical special effects people start to say what they can build. And then Nathan starts to build what around it, how the whole library is sort of circular. And then we deal with the insurance, which is a whole nother issue, and at some point, Chris goes into all the choreography

before getting into the wheel. We got the wheel and we videotape it with iPhones or whatever we can, we start cutting it together with boards or whatever, and then when we got the wheel, we got the wheel about two weeks before shooting, because it was so expensive, there was a lot of fights of getting it done, there's such huge elements of engineering

to actually complete it. Two weeks before is when Chris started to actually choreograph within that. So we could have shit the bed. Like we could have spent all this money and it wouldn't have been good. We had no idea, but Chris and I just sort of looked at each other and were like,

you just fucking figure it out because I don't want to have to turn to my line producer and say, sorry, it doesn't work. It didn't work. But we knew that there was that risk. And we just don't tell everybody else that. Myron, you must have great rhythm. Yeah, no doubt.

And then we just dump it on Myron. Yeah, I was about to say, Myron, you must have great rhythm. Like when the dance parties happen, you must be front and center on the dance floor. Because literally, like from Garden State to Wicked, bro, like everything has a rhythm and everything is, you know, we've been listening to John, we've been listening to Zach talk about the process of making and everything,

but then you're given this huge puzzle and of course you have help from the directors and everything. And it's now, here's my vision, make it work, you know what I mean? Make it make it when I watch it I want it to feel like I want it to feel like how I saw it in my head. That is so much pressure, dude So much. Well, can you talk about that? Just to rewind a little bit, you know when I when I met Zack I was so excited by the script he had written because I felt this emotion. I felt this kinship with this character. And while making the film, it was first about the heart and wearing your heart on your sleeve. And then the music was secondary. And of course, I loved musicals growing up. I loved, you know, how Ashby films. I loved films that had a lot of source music, John Hughes films, all that.

But it was first about the heart. And so when I got to work on Garden State and I get to apply my love for music, it was mostly about how does that support the emotion? And then when I got to work on more complicated things like in the Heights and Crazy Rich Asians and then Wicked, it all started with a heart. And then the Heights and crazy rich Asians and then wicked. It all started with a heart and then the rhythm and all that stuff afterwards just came from out of the emotion of like, what was I trying to evoke emotionally through dance or through character or through music? And, and so, uh, Zach, uh, came at the right time of the career.

You know, he did train me in some ways. I didn't train you, that was a joke. Then when I found John, it was this further exploration about how do I sincerely express heart without it feeling cynical or something? I don't know what it was, but then to use dance and music, and then the rhythm just comes out of something internally that has to do with just expressing this emotion.

But you must get so much, just to stick with the library example, there must be so much footage. I can't believe how you, on an indie, there's a finite amount of footage. I'm just imagining it's so challenging for you to go, well, all of these shots, I mean, so many of these shots are beautiful for this moment. How do I decide what to go to where?

Yeah, I mean, John shoots a lot of, he has sometimes in some of these big numbers, he'll have three cameras going at once just to make sure he's not missing something or has a little piece that we can use somewhere in the edit. And again, I really pride myself of just watching everything and just being really patient with learning the footage because there is some kind of nugget or kernel. I remember when we first worked together, Zach, it was like, you got to make sure you

watch everything because there might be just that one little piece of improv or Colonel. I remember when we first worked together, Zach, it was like, you got to make sure you watch everything because there might be just that one little piece of improv or something. Well, what I always do, what I always do, and I'm directing Shrinking now, and I'm still worried about it when I'm directing Shrinking even is like, we just, we keep the camera rolling and we're riffing around. And I'm always worried that the editor's going to miss

something that's, it's at the end of take seven. And it was just one take of it. And so I'm always like, you watched everything, right? You watched everything. Let's take a break. We'll be right back after these fine words. Is this a good time? It's me, Dylan Mulvaney, and my dear friend, Joe Locke from Heartstopper and Agatha All Along is my very first guest on my brand new podcast, The Dillon Hour. It's musical, mayhem, and it is going to be so much fun. I like a man. You like a man. What do I like, Joe?

You like a man too. We often- We have quite a similar- There's some cross-pollination happening in here. Not like- No! Have we? No. No.

Not yet. Never say never. I cannot wait for all you girls, gaysays and theys to join me on this extremely special pink confection of a podcast. There is so much darkness in this world and what I think we could all use more of is a little joy. Listen to the Dillon Hour on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

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Now, take a big whiff, my brah. Listen to The Hookup on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. One thing I wanted to ask you with a number like Defying Gravity, you know, so much of this movie was practical, but in Defying Gravity, you obviously have a lot of visual effects. How do you cut something so effectively when so much of it isn't going to be there until you've locked picture? Do you know what I mean? Like that whole sequence. Or seeing herself in the mirror, in the window.

All of that, the whole climax of the end of the movie. How do you cut that with so much green screen footage and stuff you know isn't going to, you have to use your imagination a lot. You have to really use your imagination. You really have to imagine the building in the background, moving with her. But at the end of the day,

again, you're really focused on performance and focused on Cynthia and then looking at this wonderful, I forget the cast member's name, the little girl looking at her. Charis. Yeah. And then, you know, just focusing on the performance and then imagining everything else. And then you're, of course, pacing that stuff out. And then, you know, you start to get things like post vids in there and you get like, you know, really crappy versions of a building flying in the background or, you know, a cut out version of a monkey chasing her. But ultimately, it's just, again, just really focusing on the performance and

then just trying to use your imagination. I mean, you, you, Donald, you talk about all these films like Star Wars or Empire Strikes Back, and I was always thinking about these movies when I was cutting this movie, you know, I was just like, I was just so happy. I finally got a chance to work with this geeky side of myself that I've always wanted to do these movies, these really big epic films. And now I get this chance.

I was like, OK, what would Spielberg do? What would Lucas do? Like, what kind of shot would he want to cut to when the balloon is going up in the air and then the cascades fiery down to the ground. I would be like, what would Shu do, Myron? What would Shu do? But you gotta listen.

I was waiting for it. I was waiting for it. He would never listen. Hello. Do you ever call, Myron, you were cutting, I'm assuming while they were shooting, do you ever call John and be like Myron, you were cutting, I'm assuming while they were shooting. Do you ever call John and be like, hey, you know, be great. You don't have this. It'd be great if you got this.

100 percent. I mean, it's usually a series of texts that I ignore. I mean, what's what is nice, you know, I was in London for eight months during the shoot and it was over one hundred and fifty five days. And, you know, to be there and then I can actually walk downstairs to the set and say hey can I show you this piece and you know I think we might be missing here or are you okay if I ask second unit to pick up something you know oh that's and sometimes like on the balloon chase scene we're kind of, figuring that scene as John was still shooting, like he shot one version of this, of the scene. And then we were like, maybe there should be a ticking clock with the, with the roof closing. So then we, we, we kind of

VFX and then I presented to John and John's like, okay, this kind of works, this we could change and then he shot principal and second unit again. So it's nice to be there to be able to not affect production, but just be involved in it. To have money. That's all that is, man. You're all some rich, rich people. I know. I mean, just for those of us-

Let's just change this. For our listeners who don't know film production, I mean, just for those of us. Let's just change this. For our listeners who don't know film production, I mean, this is just filmmaking on the largest scale. Second unit is a whole nother unit that's shooting stuff that doesn't involve the stars. So for Myron to be able to be like, hey, do you mind if I have second unit go off and shoot this?

That's pretty bougie. Yeah. But I'll tell you what the best part about working with someone like Myron, and you really did, Zach, I don't know how you guys got to this, but finding those little in-between moments, intakes, like that's, to me, was what I've been always looking for because I love finding things with our actors.

You know, the hardest part, I think, about directing is getting used to not being in control all the time. When you're making your little things, you are literally in control all your time. I'm telling my friends to grab the thing at this time and whatever it ever. But when you start to get into the bigger movies, you need people and you need them to make it better

than you ever could. If it's what you could imagine in your bedroom, then it's not good enough. And so you're constantly, I think you have to have the fundamentals right, your intention of the story, where the architecture is, how you want these characters to unfold. Then if you're gonna be truly collaborative,

the actors bring a whole new perspective to that. At a certain point I always say like, we can plan, plan, plan, but when you start making the movie, the movie starts speaking back to you, and you better be listening. And that's where Myron comes in, because he's the ultimate listener. He's getting footage that I haven't even shared

how I think it's being cut. He hasn't even seen boards of some of these things that's in my head. I don't even share boards with people on set, really, because I just wanna feel like we're just playing in most instances, and I want the freedom to be able to do that and not have check boxes. But then I dump it to Myron,

and he has to actually figure it out himself and go where instinctually it feels right in the performances themselves, or where the camera work or whatever it is. And so for me, that reset, and you have to do that reset several times in this movie to find the best version takes experience, it takes trust with each other within yourself, but that's my favorite part,

is that you just don't know. Yeah, and one thing that you're saying that applies to all filmmakers who are listening, whether you're about to direct a several hundred million dollar movie or you're gonna direct your first short film, and you've spoken a lot about this, John, is reliance on your collaborators and trust in your collaborators and not needing to be the one who has the best idea.

That's something I really had to grow into. When I made Garden State, I was like, I have to be the one, this is my movie, I wrote it, I have to be the one who has the best idea. And little by little, Larry Schur, the legendary DP, would be like, I know you want to put the camera here, but look at it over here. And I'd be like, wow, that is cool.

Or Myron would cut some sequence and I'd be like, holy shit, that's not how I, I didn't think you want to put the camera here, but look at it over here. And I'd be like, wow, that is cool. Or Myron would cut some sequence and I'd be like, holy shit, that's not how I, I didn't think you were gonna put, I wanted to put the Simon and Garfunkel song in the movie. I didn't think it was gonna go here. I've got goosebumps all over my whole body. And what you're saying with all your collaborators on set, that's something I'm still doing.

We were improving a scene and shrinking the other day and we had cut and as we were moving on to change the setup, the DP rift a punchline to a joke. And I went, that's the, why didn't you fucking say that earlier? That's the funniest joke we've come up with. And he was like, ah, it's too late. I go, no, no, no, roll it again.

We're gonna go again and do the DP's joke. And that does take a lot of time for me to get to a place where I can have my ego be relaxed and be open to like whoever has the best idea wins. And it's a balance too, because you do have to lead the group to a horizon, and yet you have to be open enough to discover the better things that come about.

And that is a difficult thing. And you struggle with it the whole time, no matter what. Like even when score comes in, and the score isn't exactly what you've lived with in the temp, and then you start to feel like, well, I really wanted that beat, but then they're offering you something. If you're not listening to it, and maybe they're wrong,

and you have to be aware when they're wrong, and get you back on course. But there are plenty of moments where they're wrong and you have to be aware when they're wrong and get you back on course. But there are plenty of moments where they're actually itching at something that, or a symptom of something that you need to address. I'm gonna say two things that are probably gonna get me in a lot of trouble. Two things are probably gonna get me in trouble.

Oh God, see he's gotten comfortable. One. Wait, we need Daniel. Wait, Daniel, come back on. When Donald says something inappropriate, Daniel shakes his head and he knows to stop. Okay, go ahead. One, thank goodness for digital chip in the camera now instead of film.

Because all of these things that you guys, Daniel, don't do that. That's not controversial. Because all of these things that you guys are asking for. I thought you were gonna be like, can I get Cynthia's number? Okay. Okay, go ahead.

No, but thank goodness for that because now you can afford to go back and do things that you couldn't do before. Back in the day when it was film and you had, this is the amount of film we have for the movie, yo. So we can't just go back to the other setup and shoot. That's one. Zach, you told me a story once. This is the other thing that I thought was amazing.

And it was when you were filming Going In Style and Alan Arkin, that one was called Alan Alda. That's the dude from Ash. Alan Arkin, he was on the bench and with the love interest in the show. And they were going back and forth, they had a line and you didn't know if you got it or anything like that. And some of the magic was actually in the in-between takes

where they're just talking as the camera is settling and they're getting shots and everything like that. And he's looking at her and he's giving her looks and she's giving him looks. And a lot of that information wasn't present while you were shooting the thing, but actually came after it was shot. And those things wound up in the movie.

Well, that scene you're talking about was an example of where when it was over, I was like, oh, Jesus, I didn't crack this scene and we're out of time. And I was not operating on a wicked-like budget where it was like, well, we, I didn't crack this scene and we're out of time. And I was not operating on a wicked like budget where it was like, well, we're gonna reshoot that next week and figure it out. So I handed it off to Myron and was like, I don't know, can you make something out of this?

And Myron did, Myron found those moments. And I think that there's so much to be found in the unexpected and just letting the camera roll and letting people continue to talk and riff. And that example you're giving is that they had such a nice banter and friendship, those two actors on set, that there were little magical moments

in just watching them interact that we actually ended up using in a cut of that scene. I'm interested to know like for you Zach too is because you're on you've been on both sides like when you started directing did that change the way you saw acting what your role was as an actor on set of being present and what you were trying to control or did that make you more aware of like oh shit my performance could be changed very dramatically? That's a great question. What I felt was, you know,

sometimes I just need a shot of you looking out the window. Like, you don't need to do all the thinking you're doing and overthinking and get tears in your eyes because your dad screamed at you, just like, I just need a shot of you looking out the window. And that really helped me as an actor because it is such a collaborative collage. On the other side of things,

there's times where I thought I really brought it and I see a cut of my performance and I think, oh, you didn't make me, I remember in the pilot of Scrubs, Bill was cutting, Lawrence was cutting out air from a dramatic moment to make the show so tight. And I was like, I even had the audacity at that young of an age to be like,

you made me look like not as good of an actor because the right thing to do there is to take a pause and digest that information and not just speak right away. So there are moments where you're like, why did you, you know, it does make me as an actor when I'm sometimes feel like there's a better performance than the one you cut with me. And I can sometimes I'm in a position where I can say,

hey, why didn't you use that take? Or, hey, when you play that on my back, I think it's weird. Or a lot of times with comedy, because I do think that's the thing I have the most experience on, I promise you that joke will play better if you cut to me for the reaction, or cut to the other person.

The joke doesn't land on the person saying it, it's gonna land on the reaction for the other person. That kind of thing just has become natural in my body. Yeah, I mean, that also has so much of like, if Myron doesn't know how to cut a joke, then the joke will not work. It doesn't matter how good the performance is. Or you set back and you let the actor play the joke out.

And then, you know, so it's always like, It's funny when you go to somebody, you test the comedy and you go, why isn't that joke working? It was so funny on set. And then it can literally be removing some frames or it can be literally what I'm saying where you're trying to play the joke

on the person who said the funny thing. Whereas then you discover the audience laughs way harder when you cut to the dead pan reaction of the person listening and you just didn't see it that way. By the way, were you able to test this movie or because it was so high profile? Was that helpful to you, the testing process? It was. It was really helpful because, you know, well, first of all, we do a series of smaller screenings, like almost like any other

film, you know, where you're testing it on your friends and like groups of like five and 10 and 15. And then you're, you get more confident over time. And then you're you get more confident over time and then you're testing on like 200 really close friends. Yeah, close friends. But and then and then you go out to like we went out to Arizona and Vegas and San Diego and, you know, they had to, you know, sign in the days and all that stuff. But, you know, we wanted to make sure that the film was gonna work

for a general audience. And I think that was really brave of Mark Platt and Universal to allow us to do that. Yeah, it's so helpful. And I know a lot of times with these huge movies, these huge IPs, they don't wanna do it just cause they don't even wanna risk anything, anyone going online and saying,

I saw an early cut and all that stuff. But I think it should be so helpful for you guys to get the feedback, especially with a musical comedy. Yeah, I think some directors don't like to share because they want their work and that's what it is. And I just think for us, I think it's not necessarily what the audience says back

because most of their solutions are not, they don't know the architectures, they don't know solutions, but the consistency of the symptoms of something, whether they don't, oh, they're not rooting for this character. So it's not necessarily in that scene that's the problem. It's, well, we need to like empathize

with that character way earlier. So I think we need that data in order to find solutions. I think it's's the most valuable thing is just sitting with the audience. I mean, you can feel when they're lost, you can feel when they're bored, you can feel the jokes that aren't playing and that's more valuable than anything

they write on the cards. Yes, Donald? That's part of my question then. When do you know you did it? When do you know? So you completed the movie. Friday night of opening weekend probably, right? Really, is that when it happens? Okay, so here's an example.

I remember when I saw Remember the Titans for the first time, I got to show it to- Oh, were you in that, Donald? I was, it's a little movie by Disney. Oh, is Denzel Washington in that? Denzel Washington is the star of it. I'm in it also with Denzel. I have quite a few scenes with him, by the way.

Yeah, I've heard about that. I hold my own, John. I hold my own. Anyway, the point is, I remember holding a small group of people in a theater, Jerry Bruckheimer and them were nice enough to allow me to have my family come and see the movie. Some of my cousins and my parents were in a big musical theater. They were in a theater growing up for me growing up. So I watched my parents do musical theater. That's what I should say. So a lot of the repertory company came or a lot of the company came and we're watching

it and they're so into it. And there was that moment where it was like, holy shit, I did it. I did exactly what I told my mom I was going to do. I left the house and I became an actor and I'm in a movie that everybody's going to fucking go see. I know it for a fact. I could feel it right now. Just by the way everyone in the room is behaving. Some people look at when you know artists, when musical artists go into the studio and they're making a song and there's that moment where it's like, oh shit, we made a hit before it even hits the radio. They just know when I'm asking all three of you,

at what point Myron, John, Zach, are you Myron, where you're like, okay, this is all I can do. I think this is it. John, where you're like, holy fuck, we made it. Zach, where you're like, I, I, I, there was a point where you saw a garden state and you were like, holy shit, everybody's gonna love this shit. There's gotta be a moment in that for you.

That's a great question and I want John to go first, but I'll just say that there's two different moments really. There's holy shit, I made something I'm proud of and B, holy shit, the audience likes this. So John, what was that for you? Well, I remember it more clearly for Crazy Rich Asians because I did not have any big expectations for that. And I loved that movie.

I loved making that movie. When we were there, it felt like something special was happening, but I still held onto the idea that no one's ever seen this movie, but what we were doing was the right thing to do. the idea that no one's ever seen this movie, but what we were doing was the right thing to do. When we showed it to our first, when we showed that movie to our first audience and watching them fall in love with those characters

who did not look traditionally like their romantic leads and they were crying and following along, these things that felt so specifically to me and my family. And then they stayed in the lobby for like an hour afterwards just talking about it. To me, that meant everything. We hadn't opened yet, but it felt like, okay, we did our thing.

I think for, and then in the Heights, when we did in the Heights, I felt when we were making it, I literally said like, this is the best I can do. Like I don't, something is really working in this and I don't know what it is. And then movie came out and nobody went to see it. And so I have had, and then the critics loved it and then nobody went to go see it.

So I had this like mental whiplash. And so for Wicked, I made myself very prepared that it didn't matter how I felt about after it, that I was only focusing on process. I was only focusing on getting it to as best as we could. And then I had to like shield everything out. It was too painful in the Heights, to be honest. And so I've kept it actually pretty far from me.

And we have the second half, so it's also like, it's not done yet. So I'm thinking a little bit ahead. I think at the AFI luncheon, when they showed the clip from, they showed the clips from all the Oscar nominated movies or whatever, and they showed the end of Wicked. And all those scenes were amazing

from all the other movies. I was like, oh no, they're gonna show a musical scene from our movie, and it's gonna be like, oh, just a musical number, whatever. But when they showed the end of Defying Gravity, that audience in that room connected so hard, and these are people who are jaded, and they clapped so loud and stood up,

what they hadn't done for anyone, and it just felt like no matter what you give us or not give us or acknowledge, it makes you feel this. It makes you feel, and remember the Titans? I remember being in that audience with that audience, when they scored a touchdown, everybody was standing in the theater. I'd never felt that.

I was like, we have that with Define. If we can do that, and I think I said that to you, Myron, remember the Titans? There's a moment, if we can get people to stand up in that theater, that's like our goal. We get this beautiful gift of Define Grab. So I haven't fully let it in, but I've left pieces in yet so far.

So. I love it. Thank you for that. I mean, it's- What about you, Myron? Well, certainly, you know, this is gonna sound silly, but in both Garden State,

Crazy Rich Asians, In the Heights, and Wicked, it's the same feeling I have when I finished the assembly. If I'm crying and feeling emotional, and I'm feeling the same way on the mixing stage and in the theater, I know it's working. Consistently with all those movies, I felt that over and over again.

Of course, it's nice when they're applauding at AFI. I mean, that was an incredible experience. Or even at the Oscars, you're sitting there like, oh my God, they're playing a clip at the Oscars? You know, but it really is that very pure moment of like what it feels like when you see the movie for the first time and you're like, oh my God,

I'm just feeling deeply for these characters. This seems so special. I remember that first, my first cup at Garden State or going to Sundance for the first time. It all felt like the same feeling. It just was like it just was on repeat. And so when that, you know, the first cut of Wicked was before John saw it was on my birthday, like two years ago. And I just my assistants were in the room with me and we're just like just crying. And it was like just you know

Cards saying, you know shot of monkeys missing here, but still it was just like this really Ultimately just beautiful emotional experience Zachary well for me it was you know In Garden State it was you know, Myron I cut that in my living room and so We were sitting there thinking, I think we made something really good, but we had no idea. And then I remember it got into Sundance and it played at the Eccles Theater and I introduced it.

And I went to the back of the theater and I just started sobbing. I just felt like I can't believe this happened. I can't believe we're here. I can't believe my first movie is premiering at Sundance. And then it had such a reaction. It was really one of the greatest moments of my life. And with my last film, A Good Person, I was so happy with it and so proud of it.

And then it didn't really have the theatrical reaction I wanted. And that was really disappointing. It's similar to what John is saying about In the Heights. You know, it didn't really have the theatrical reaction I wanted and that was a really disappointing It's similar to what John is saying about in the Heights I really was was was felt really sad that it didn't have the The actual reaction and then when it finally was free on Prime at Christmas It was number one on Prime and then all these Christmas movies started coming in. I was like, oh, this is definitely gonna get kicked out

of the top 10 on Prime because of all these Christmas movies. And it stayed in the top 10 on Prime with just a good person and Christmas movies for like two weeks. And the executive at Amazon called me and she's like, do you know how many people are watching this movie when you're in the top five on Amazon Prime across the globe.

So then I finally felt like some vindication for it not performing well theatrically. But it's, it's, it's, I had two more questions because I know you guys got to go, but I just wanted to say, Myron, I read that you, it was your idea or John, it was a collaboration, but what was the decision process behind not just going hard cut to black after the big note, but having that boom, boom, boom, boom, which I loved. Yeah, I thought that was rad. And I know there's a little story. And then she takes it off into the sky. Da, na, na, na.

Yeah. Boom, and then she takes it off. Dum, dum, dum, dum, dum, dum. I thought that was brilliant. What was the process of that? Well, I, so, okay. So of course you get ended on the war cry. I sometimes I don't know it.

I love that you called it a war cry. Well, I'm going to kill you. That's what she said. Oh, God. to kill you. That's what she said. Oh, God. Those are not the notes. Sorry, everybody. Not everybody can be here in a revote. Thank you, C-Wel.

John. Yeah, well, at least don't hurt our listener. Don't. Yeah. I think they already shot this part two, Donald. All right. Go ahead, Myron. Yeah, so of course, that's where you're supposed to end.

I think when I was sometimes I so John oftentimes would say, you know, do you want to know my plan with the film, like how to a scene together? And I say, no, I don't want to know your plan because I want to play with the footage and just see, you know, what do I come up with? Just that way, if I make mistakes or just discover something from the course of editing, then that's great. And one of those things was how to end the movie.

And I had basically had a lot of, you know, previs of like, you know, alphabet flying and, and I was like, I want to use some of this footage. And so I, during my first assembly, I actually went to my music editors and said, can we extend the music after the War Cry? And the music editors, of course, were looking at me like, I don't know if we should do that. And we're like, no, no, no, it's just me and you. We're just messing around a little bit.

And it was like, yeah, OK, our amazing music editors, Jack Dorman and Katherine Wilson, they said, OK, we'll try to extend that. And then, of course, you know, kind of worked. And then I said, I literally said to Jack, like, can we try the 2001, you know, Tiffany hits to like how long bomb bomb bomb. And then I said to him, can we can we repeat the word down? And it was just like, no, no, no, we can't do any of this. Steven Schwartz, John, everyone's going to kill us. And I was like, just just try it. And so we did it.

We workshopped the idea at my assembly stage. And then I presented it to John. Little did I know, like, you know, eight months later, I'm watching the end of ET like video, it later, I'm watching the end of, um, uh, ET like video. Uh, and, um, I'm watching and I, literally John Williams is doing these same Tiffany hits, like, and I, so I think that's something just in my, my DNA had told me to extend this moment, make it feel like this back to the future empire strikes back cliffhanger

ending. And then I presented John and, you know, there's a lot of debate after you do these things, you know, whether it's the right idea. But, you know, it ended up sticking. I loved it. He also was not in the room when I when I showed the movie to Steven Spielberg and I'm sitting there after in the dark with him and he turns to me, he says, I heard those ET Tiffany. He did say that? I was about to say, That's the first time. That's so, oh. But wait, John, did you re-record the orchestra or are those literally the timpani's from UT?

No, they're not. They were our own orchestra for sure. Hugh Spielberg watches all of Wicked and at the end of it goes, oh, you took that from UT. You stole that shit. I was like, oh God. Well, that's the highest compliment.

That's the highest compliment when they actually know what you're doing. It's like, it's, you know. All right, last question. Great, that was a great moment. That is one of my, look, there are so many moments in this movie that are my favorite moments. I was really worried about popular.

I didn't know how you were gonna be able to do that. Defying gravity, I, you know, you have an imagination that succeeded, that, you know, you have an imagination that succeeded my imagination, but popular, I was so worried about how are they gonna make this part funny? How are they gonna make this part good? That's the best.

She was so funny. But that's the piece in the play where if you miss that one, guess what? Well, we'll have another bit. And you're in a dorm room and you're stuck in a dorm room and now you're really late in this movie. If you actually look at the architecture, do you really need popular the song? I'm not sure it moves anything forward.

So we had to give reasons for it to be, she had to be fucking on it on every thing and not again copying anything of Kristen and the dorm had to have space and room for them to do, it was a lot. We shot it the second week of shooting. By the way, when I was watching it, I was in the theater going, she's fucking hilarious. She's amazing, absolutely. I was watching this going, holy shit,

Ariana Grande's doing exactly, look, okay, so look, my kids love Victorious, which is a television show that she was on back in the day. And if you watch that show now, it's a bunch of great performances from young actors and actresses and stuff like that. But the person that really stands out is Ariana. You know what I mean?

She's the comic relief in it. She's the voice in it too. She's the actual person who's carrying it with her singing and everything. Everybody else is kind of dancing and singing too, but she's the star. And you don't really notice it until you go back and watch it. When I saw that she got this part, I was like,

she's getting nominated for an Oscar. I was saying that before, I was saying that from the gate. Once the trailer came out, I was like, she's getting nominated. It's a wrap. When that part came up and I was like, all right, now here's the thing. Do you Ariana Grande this situation and you sing it with all of this soul and stuff or do you stick to what the way it was?

And the fact that she was able to find that middle and hit you still with the little riff here and there. You can't beat it. Like I saw somebody say, I don't know where I'm going with this. I saw somebody on the internet say, look, ladies and gentlemen of the Wicked community, those of you who are going to go on and do Wicked on Broadway or off Broadway, please stick to the way it is originally written. You don't have what it takes to do what Ariana and Cynthia did.

Like, sincerely, like, like, like it's just, it was so refreshing because we could have, and I'm, you know, I just love the movie so much, but you can't do the same movie as the play and expect everybody to be like, you know, you did it. It has to be something different. It has to be innovative. There has to, you know, George Lucas is the king of saying this.

If you're doing the same thing over and over again, you're not really making good movies. You're just making a movie. You got to make it different in some way. And you found ways. Thank you. And the theater experience is completely different than the cinematic experience in terms of the perspective of the audience. Like we had to uncover very early that when the audience sits in a theater, you're in with the world

that's in front of you. You're expecting a musical. She comes in in the bubble. She's like, Glinda is the host for the night. And then the odd girl drops in, the green girl, and then you laugh at the green girl. And then she has to win you over throughout. But you still have Glinda as the host. In a movie, the audience is skeptical from the beginning, like, show me why I need to believe in a musical world.

I don't even like musicals. Why, why? And so you have this wall already, and then the green girl drops in and everyone's singing around her, and she's looking around and she's the audience being like, what the fuck have I just dropped into, and why are all these people singing?

And so when her- That's so smart. And so her first words in Wizard and I, did that really just happen? And she starts to sing. You're like, oh my gosh, she has a better singing power than anybody in this movie. And you're like, then you root for her and it's through the medium of the actual way you're telling this story.

And I think all those things, and then the brilliance of Ariana Grande is that, you know, you laugh at her in this movie because she's silly and crazy, whatever, she's fully committed. But by the time you get to the Oz Dust and she sacrifices her own sort of what she thinks is important to be there just with her friend or this new friend, then by the time you get to popular, you're not laughing at her anymore, you're just with her friend or this new friend, then by the time you get to popular, you're not laughing at her anymore, you're laughing with her.

And that transition, because right before she says, it's not your fault. And you can see in Cynthia's eyes, this is Myron's brilliance, is that you see in Cynthia's eyes, her falling for this girl. Like, wow, she sees the world so simply and it has value. And then Glinda says, oh look, it's tomorrow.

Like hope in a bottle. And then she gets to seeing popular and now you're in love with them, you're in love with her, and now popular comes across as like just fun and it's driving their relationship closer. So we had to recognize the different medium in order to uncover the things we need to do in this movie to make it work, actually.

Well, you were such the perfect person for the job, John. I'm about to say that. Thank you. I was about to say that. I'm so glad you both got the assignment. I can't wait to watch the next part. I love For Good. That song is just one of the most beautiful songs ever written. I'm excited to see the battles. These motherfuckers are going to be fighting each other and everything like that. I'm excited to see the battles. These motherfuckers are gonna be fighting each other

and everything like that. I'm excited for that stuff too. John, did you ever see the video of Kristin Chenoweth at the Hollywood Bowl calling up a school teacher to sing for good with her? No, I've seen some of those kinds of videos, but I haven't seen that one in particular. Well, I think it's safe to assume it was a plant

and she knew because just go, the audience go watch this and John, please admire and watch it. It's Cynthia Rivo at the Hollywood Bowl and she says, I need someone to sing For Good With Me and she calls up a woman from the audience and the woman says, she says, what do you do? She says, I actually teach singing, I'm a school teacher and everyone applauds. And the woman proceeds to give the most breathtaking rendition of the song with Kristin. Oh, that's Kristin Chenoweth, not with Cynthia Erivo. That's what Kristin Chenoweth.

With Kristin Chenoweth, yeah. Did I say Cynthia? I meant Kristin. Anyway, it's just a little thing I wanted to share with you. That's amazing. I will say about the Hollywood Bull, is you did a video there for Joshua Raden, and I love that video.

Oh, John, thank you. And there's a simplicity with the light that you did, it was just so beautiful. And I, you know, in our end credits, when we talk about the lights, that was part of the inspiration. I was like, oh yeah, like that video, like that Zach did. And so anyway, that video stays very,

is in my brain a lot. Thank you. We don't have a lot of them, John. But if you wanna come to the Garden State concert, I'm sure my boy can hook it up. Myron, say anything with you. Yes, let's go. You guys are totally welcome.

I don't know if you're in LA on March 29th, John Chu, but Myron's gonna be there and I know a fellow that can get you in. Let's do it. I'm down. We can get you some tickets. I'll make myself available. Since I know you like both Garden State and things shot in outdoor amphitheaters.

Last question, Donald and I heard you're doing Joseph and I know that 50 year old men might be too old, but listen. To play Jesus. No, Jesus is not doing Joseph. And I know that 50 year old men might be too old, but listen. To play Jesus. No, Jesus is not in Joseph. Jesus, you're fucking ruining my pitch already. That's a superstar. My bad, my bad.

All right, now we're down to 45 seconds. Do you want Donald and I to audition? Even though we're 50 and most of the characters probably aren't 50, we would love to. I had a pitch that Donald and I to audition, even though we're 50 and most of the characters probably aren't 50, we would love to, I had a pitch that Donald and I were gonna do Joseph on Broadway, and we were gonna alternate all of the principal roles. And-

Dude, this is not gonna work. He's nodding like, he's nodding like, oh, did you? Really? Interesting. Anyway, I love the show. I love Joseph so much. And I wanna do something that is just ridiculous and crazy.

And for some reason, I don't know, Joseph has always been that for me, but also about a dreamer, someone who's dreaming of something for themselves. I also feel like the show is so much better than the treatment it gets. It's always sort of been treated like a Vegas act. And I think that the show is so much better

and smarter than that. So I'm glad it's in your hands. I'm gonna say this and then we're gonna let you go. He's gotta go. Go ahead. I say this to Zach all the time. You guys both should be directing Star Wars and or Marvel. I'm just gonna put it out Marvel. I'm just going to put it out there. I'm just going to put it out there.

What if I told you that they're on to things that are more important to us than that? All right, guys, thank you for your time. We know you're so busy. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you guys. Is this a good time? It's me, Dylan Mulvaney, and my dear friend Joe Locke from Heartstopper and Agatha All Along is my very first guest on my brand new podcast, The Dylan Hour. It's musical mayhem and it is going to be so much fun. I like a man. You like a man. What do I like, Joe?

You like a man too. We often- We have quite a similar- There's some cross-pollination happening in here. Not like- No! Have we? No. here. Not like... No! Have we? No.

No. Not yet. Never say never. I cannot wait for all you girls, gays, and theys to join me on this extremely special pink confection of a podcast. There is so much darkness in this world and what I think we could all use more of is a little joy. Listen to the Dylan Hour on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

to your podcasts. Love ya! My husband cheated on me with two women! He wants to stay together because he has cancer! to the Dylan Hour on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Love ya! with his mom while he is in recovery so that it takes the pressure off me caring for both him and her baby until he's well enough to move into our new home with us. So far. Well, last week we had attempted break-in. I asked my husband who was supposed to be at his mom's to come over and change locks, but he wouldn't.

Then his mom told me he wasn't with her. I went to Facebook and it took me less than an hour to find the first two women he was cheating on me with. Oh, what else is he lying about? Well, one thing my paranoia just wouldn't let up was about the cancer and his treatments. I asked his mom about it, who told me he doesn't have cancer.

She also informed me he was in rehab, not the hospital. He suffered from addiction and was trying to recover for me and our baby. Did she leave him? Well, to find out how the story ends, listen and follow the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

This is John Cameron Mitchell and my new fiction podcast series cancellation Island stars Holly Hunter as Karen a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled in the future we will all be canceled for 15 minutes, but don't worry, we'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class and mandatory Ayahuasca ceremonies are designed to force the cancel to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing.

Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How goes lower? From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20

comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series. Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. And Santi was gone. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi. And what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously.

Hmm, pillow talk. The most unwelcome window into the human psyche. Follow our out of his element hero as he engages in a series of ill-conceived, investigative hookups. Mama always used to say, "'God gave me gumption in place of a gag reflex. And as I was about to learn, no amount of showering

can wash your hands of a bad hookup. Now, take a big whiff, my brah. Listen to The Hookup on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Well, we were almost in Joseph and you had to ruin it. I didn't ruin anything. You had to make a Jesus joke and then you allowed him to pivot off of us. Look, my point is this. This fucking ice cream truck is back. This fucking ice cream truck is back.

This fucking ice cream truck is back. Oh no. We have to be persistent like the ice, if we want to be a part of his world, we have to be persistent like the fucking ice cream truck and consistently be outside his window. Do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do do. It's good. Do do do do do do do. Anyway, that was amazing, huh? That was wonderful. That was one of my favorite episodes we've ever done.

Two people at the top of their game. I was about to say, this will go down in history 10 years from now. Hopefully this age is like fine wine and you and I both keep our nose clean. But we just had, in my opinion, the next big blockbuster director on this podcast. And I think in 10 years, he will do,

I look at him like Spielberg and I look at him like Lucas in a lot of ways because he's very innovative and he's doing something different with musical and fantasy. I imagine Joseph in the Technicolor dream coat is gonna be freaking outrageous, bro. Outrageous. He's so smart. I love what he was saying when he was talking about how like Oz, everything in Oz is meant to be a distraction and it's perfect.

And then the Z is alphabet that cuts through the perfection of Oz. I was like, oh shit. It's refreshing to see someone. I mean, you're very much like this too, the way you talk about directing and everything like that and telling stories. You could tell he's a fan of the stories that he's telling. Let's go back to the first part. refreshing to see someone. I mean, you're very much like this too. The way you talk about directing and everything like that and telling stories, you could tell he's a fan

of the stories that he's telling. Let's go back to the fact that my Josh Raden video at the Hollywood Bowl inspired him. Not only that, dude, he talked about Remember the Titans. I'm responsible for wicked beings so good. So was Remember the Titans, bro. No, no, no. So was Remember the,

he said Remember the Titans, if we could have that feeling no. So it was remember the, he said remember the Titans if we could have that feeling like that. I don't know, that was Jordan. Did you miss that? Did you miss that? That was Jordan. No, no, no, no, no. Basically, my Josh Raiden music video

is the reason Wicked was so good. I'm gonna go and say the reason to remember the Titans. Remember the Titans is the reason why Wicked was so good because he wanted to get that feeling that you got when they scored a touchdown and remember the Titans and how the audience stood up in the movie theater. He wanted that for Wicked. That's what I heard.

You know what I think about what you just said? What? Eat these balls, Zach. No way. All right, what a show. Juel, thank you for coordinating all that. I know it was tricky to get it all scheduled. That was most impressive.

And the fact that he stayed on for as long as he stayed on, too, he stayed on for over an hour. So holy cow. Thank you to Myron Kirstein and John Chu. And audience, if you're listening and you're gonna be in LA March 29th, come check out my benefit for the Midnight Mission, the Garden State 20th anniversary concert.

And if you can't make it, buy a ticket to stream it starting April 6th. You can buy the tickets right now at veeps.com. Every single cent of your streaming ticket purchase goes to the charity. And also you can buy merch there. The merch isn't even available. This is a little podcast insider scoop.

The merch isn't even available to buy yet, but if you go to the Veep site, they've got it up there so you can buy it already. Ooh, pre-orders. All right, inside scoop. I love you guys. Count us out, Donald. Love you too, bro. What a great show.

Five, six, seven, eight. Gather round to hear our, gather round to hear our Scrubs we watch show with Zach and Donno Mm-hmm My husband cheated on me with two women! He wants to stay together because he has cancer. Should I stay? Okay Sam, that has to be the craziest story in OK Storytime Podcast history. Well John, that's because it's dump of week and this user writes, Last week we had an attempted break-in.

I asked my husband, who was supposed to be at his mom's, to come over and change the locks, but his mom had an attempted break-in. I asked my husband, who was supposed to be at his mom's, to come over and change the locks, but his mom told me he wasn't with her. And it took me less than an hour to find the first two women he was cheating on me with. Did you leave him? Well, to find out how this story ends,

follow the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is John Cameron Mitchell, and my new fiction podcast series, Cancellation Island, stars Holly Hunter as Karen, a wellness influencer who launches a rehab for the recently canceled. In the future, we will all be canceled for 15 minutes, but don't worry. We'll take you from broke to woke or your money back. Cancellation Island's revolutionary rehab therapies like Bad Touch Football, Anti-Racism Spin Class, and Mandatory Ayahuasca Ceremonies

are designed to force the council to confront their worst impulses. But everything starts to fall apart when people start disappearing. Karen, where have you brought us? Cancellation Island, where a second chance might just be your last. Listen to Cancellation Island on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you remember what you said the first night I came over here? How goes lower? From Blumhouse TV, iHeart Podcasts, and Ember 20 comes an all new fictional comedy podcast series.

Join the flighty Damien Hirst as he unravels the mystery of his vanished boyfriend. I've been spending all my time looking for answers about what happened to Santi. And what's the way to find a missing person? Sleep with everyone he knew, obviously. Listen to The Hook Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, kids, it's me, Kevin Smith. And it's me, Harley Quinn Smith.

That's my daughter, man, who my wife has always said is just a beardless, d***less version of me. And that's the name of our podcast, Beardless, D***less Me. I'm the old one. I'm the young one. And every week, we try to make each other laugh really hard. Sounds innocent, doesn't it?

A lot of cussing. A lot of bad language. It's for adults only. Or listen to it with your kid. It could be a family show. We're not quite sure. We're still figuring it out. It's a work in progress.

Listen to Beardless **** with me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. You get your podcast.