Fake Doctors, Real Friends with Zach and Donald - Our Difficult Past: Blackface on Scrubs

Episode Date: June 29, 2020

Zach and Donald are joined by Scrubs creator Bill Lawrence, and one of the stars of the show, Sarah Chalke, as they discuss the shows' difficult history with Blackface. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey Gather round to hear our, gather round to hear our Scrubs Rewatch Show with Zach and Donald. Hey everybody, welcome to a special episode of Fake Doctors Real Friends. We assembled the gang here a bit because we want to talk about blackface in Scrubs. There were three episodes in particular over the years that had instances of blackface. One was me in a fantasy being Donald. One was Sarah in a fantasy being Donald. And the third was Donald and I attending a black fraternity party, him in whiteface and me in blackface. I think we all have a lot we want to say. There's a lot going on in the world right now. And I think it's very good that these discussions are all coming up, not to use a hackneyed phrase, but it does feel like a teachable moment for us all. And I thought, Bill, you might want to start off since you led the charge on this and called the studio and said you want the episodes taken down. So do you want to just first talk about your decision to do that

and your thinking behind it? Look, the most important reason I wanted to do this, besides the fact that I just felt stupid and bummed out about it, and it's my show, and I'm like, fuck, if it makes me feel that crappy, I can take that out. feel that crappy, I can, I can, you know, I can take that out as I did see some things directed at Donald and Zach and Sarah. And everybody should know that the reason that word showrunner exists in television is because you're the gatekeeper and anything that gets allowed on a show, you have to ultimately take responsibility for. So first off, super sorry that any of you

guys had to deal with any stuff because, you know, ultimately, even though we're all friends and it was a super creative and kind of reciprocal environment with, you know, you guys still ultimately at the end of the day did and were receptive to doing whatever, you know, stuff we told you about. And then the second thing you asked is a good starting place because what's so interesting is it starts with ignorance. Even now, I was reading stuff just the last couple weeks. When I first became aware of this, it's because because the podcast

Donald and Zach, you're revisiting old episodes and it's I want to make sure we never sound like we're making excuses but one of the jokes amongst us is that none of us have ever really watched this show when you work on a show, you make it, you film it you shoot it and you see it on TV and none of us have really watched it

for me, 15, 14 years no, 10 years since I saw the finale but 15 years since I saw any finale but 15 years since i saw any of these episodes and you guys saw some stuff and you're like ah man you know there's some issues stuff in there you couldn't do today it doesn't feel great and the disney was really cool we didn't get asked to do this you know i called him up and said uh um hey there's a bunch of episodes have blackface in it and I want to get rid of them. And it was very interesting because the PC cancel culture, whatever,

on Twitter is like, why'd you pull the whole episodes? Why don't you just edit those moments out and put them back on? And I said to one person, I'm like, yeah, well, it's a pandemic. I don't really have an editing facility up right now. And I'll probably do that.

But first thing I wanted to do was get them off TV because it bummed me out personally. And we can talk about why if you guys want to, you know, just made me feel shitty. I want to say one of the biggest naivete things that I have about it, and I'm very sorry for my participation in it. I just want to first talk about the ones where both Sarah and I were dressing up as Donald in fantasies, is that I really, frankly, at the time, delineated in my mind between the traditional blackface that we've seen. I remember when Ted Danson did that blackface thing, and I think it was 93 or so. I remember being like shocked. I remember being like, what the fuck was that guy thinking? And I was just out of high school.

You know, because he had done the you know, the one we saw growing up. Yeah, it was back when he was dating Whoopi Goldberg. Yeah, he was dating Whoopi Goldberg, who comes up a lot on this podcast. And I remember she was laughing at it, and I remember being like, I remember even just as a 17-year-old

or whatever, being like, what the fuck is that guy thinking? But I never – when we were doing this, I'm embarrassed to say now, I never equated it. I was like, oh, it's a fantasy where I'm trying to be my best friend and I never thought it was the same thing. It took a while. It took a while. It took a while. When Donald and I started the podcast, I mean obviously I cringed a little bit about it in years. But when Donald and I first started the podcast, he mentioned – he goes, I mean we did blackface on this show.

And I cringed just to hear Donald – I didn't even tell you this, Donald. But to hear you say it out loud, it really made me feel so shitty and embarrassed. And I just feel stupid that at the time I didn't say to you, Bill, I mean, again, I appreciate you taking responsibility and going, you know, it was my show. But I didn't say to you at the time, hey, this is wrong. Hey, we shouldn't do this. I could have easily spoken up, but I didn't see it. And that's how the climate's changed. where any joke was, you know, was passable as a joke, as long as it was meant to make people laugh.

Nowadays, there are boundaries on what you can, you know, do as far as jokes go. And I know a lot of comedians and stuff like that are dealing with that issue as well. You know, how do you make something that's hurt so many people? how do you use that as comedy? There's the argument that everyone's having now. I think people can still do it. It depends on the voice. Well, yeah, I agree with you. I feel, personally, a lot of people feel this way as well. Dave Chappelle is one of those artists who can go out and talk about issues that we all kind of have.

Some people have pain when it's involved and people will laugh still you know what i mean uh i i i you know i i just feel like you know i used to watch movies when i was a kid that with with stars that i look up to like you know the eddie murphy movie really comes to mind when i think about this. Which movie are you talking about? Trading Places, dude. It's one of the funniest scenes in the whole movie when I was a kid. Me and my friends used to do it together where Dan Aykroyd walks on the train dressed as a Jamaican Rastafari. You know what I mean?

And he's painted his face black. And they cut into him putting the makeup on. And he's using shoe polish and shit like that to put it on when he walks into the thing and i just remember laughing my ass off and i know if that came up now i'd be like oh shit and i wouldn't laugh because now i know thanks to joelle our producer i'm way more educated than I was before. I knew blackface was bad. You know what I mean? And when Sarah and Zach put on makeup to look like me, I didn't look at it as a racist thing. I looked at it as, oh,

we're trying to tell a joke that he fantasizes. He wishes he was me. And she fantasized and he fantasizes that his girlfriend wishes she was you. Yeah. Right. You know what I mean? But then when you go and you listen to where all of this comes from and and what jim crow is or was and you know i'm

gonna be honest with you i knew jim crow was something from the south that oppressed black people but i thought it was a white i'm gonna be honest with you i thought it was a white man named jim crow who was just a fucking you know who made it so people couldn't go into into into and perform in places like that because people be like oh it's the jim crow south i had no idea i had no idea that it was jim crow was a white man dressed up as a black man trying to show america this is how stupid black people are and it goes so deep for me that now I can't even watch Dumbo now because the crows in Dumbo are crows and they're supposed to be black and they've got all of this slick talk and there's talk and jive I done seen you know I done seen just about everything all of this shit shit now is like, oh, I know where it comes from.

And the fact that there are crows doing it and the fucking dude's name was Jim Crow is even more of a mind fuck for me. So it's like how, you know, and this is what Disney was using at the time to educate children on how black people were subtly. And it was like, it's like, holy shit. It starts with ignorance, right? And, you know, we can talk about the history of it because I'm more educated than I ever thought I would be now just by burying myself in reading and stuff. But you guys might've even noticed this is where ignorance starts. We differentiated between kind of that Jim Crow, like what you remember, Al Jolson, almost a shoe polished blackface thing. And we did that bit once on the show with the intention of showing how

idiotic it was. Even now, talking to other people, yeah, we did it that one time with Turk and JD, when Turk had white makeup on and JD had black makeup on and JD got his ass kicked. I'm like, no, we did it the other two times that Elliot and JD were both made up to look like Turk and none of us had associated those as the same thing. You know what I mean? And

I think we were talking a little bit about it. We almost thought I think that we had in a bad way a free pass to not have those thoughts back then because we were so fucking proud of ourselves for doing you know very diverse show in front of and behind the camera great black and white friendship that exists as a real black and

white friendship great interracial couple who are stars of the show you know, and so it was almost a block of arrogance of like, oh, we're so good in what we're portraying and doing and showing, you know, we could never venture into muddy waters. And even now with that same ignorance, you know, we never really connected the two of those things until now. And you do the reading, it's not any different, you know, right. And I'm gonna, I'm over talking, and and i'm gonna i'm over talking and then i'm gonna shut up and let donald everybody talk i do want to say one other thing that bothers me about the internet that's happening is there's a big both sides ism thing you know and i'm getting tons of little connection tissue when i read now going well you're gonna

pull that issue where that episode where donald plays cal tur Turk and as a white guy insurance agent I'm like no I'm not because as a white guy that does not based in any systemic racism for me or history or any negativity I just don't I just for me I just wanted to separate that as well and find that kind of argument to be so counterproductive and ridiculous sorry Donald that was it no it's so good dude look man I'm of all, I applaud you for saying, you know what? This bothers me. I want to take this out. You know what I mean? And educating yourself. This was an educational

thing for me, too, because when we made it, my whole idea of this whole thing was like, well, look, if we could CG this opportunity at the time, it would be my face on Sarah's body, and that's how we would have got around all of that stuff. Donald, just remind everyone the context of that because just with the sarah one for example it was as i recall jd was fantasizing what if his girlfriend

and his best friend were one person right that's how it came right uh one of the one of the through lines of the show was that you loved turk almost even at the end remember it is is uh you tell elliot when you finally marry her i love you more than turk and it's the biggest thing you've ever said and when you're living with elliot you know you the only way it could be any better is if she was turk you love him so much right right sorry so sorry don go back to your cg so my whole my whole thing was like oh well if if we were now we would do a c CG situation and then we wouldn't have to paint anybody. But when you do the research and you look back at it, Bill, you're absolutely right. It's a systemic thing.

It comes from a place of people being very fucked up to black people toward the end of slavery to dehumanize them. And so it's like you're caught between a rock and a hard place. For me, I'm like, I'm not hurt by it. I'm more disappointed that it happened, but I also believe in comedy too, right? So there are things that some of my favorite comedians say and things that are in some of my favorite movies that I've laughed out loud at. And now I'm finding myself having to check that like, wait, hold up. You know, let's, before we start laughing at all of the things that we found funny in the past, let's journey back to where it started at. And that's the only, that's the reason why for me,

I'm very, Bill, I'm going to be honest with'm, I'm very, I'm, I'm Bill, I'm be honest with you. I'm proud of you for saying, you know what, this bothered me. I'm taking this out. Uh, yeah, look, it's not, it's not, you can't do the, uh, you know, I don't, I don't want to revolve around like, uh, uh, oh, we did good. We're, we're, we should be so proud of ourselves. You know what I mean? But no, but that's not that's that's that's not what i mean by it i you know i feel like you felt oh shit this is an issue and it's not all right with me so i want to remove it well my simple go go the way to simplify it donald is for everybody i think is and by the way you know there's always a slippery slope in the arts of what uh you know, there's always a slippery slope in the arts of what, uh, you know, you're allowed to remove, keep in, et cetera. But for me, and I'm not saying it's right for everybody. Uh, it's my

show. I'm really proud of it. And, um, those moments, I didn't, nobody pressured me in those moments, make me feel like shit, make me feel stupid. And, uh, um, and by the way, there's gonna be other moments in the show that make other people angry and go you want to remove those and I'm going back through and watching the shows and there's nothing that has bothered me as much as these three things and so for a good rule

yeah what's the big deal I'm going to pull three things out that make me feel like shit because now entertainment exists in perpetuity and I should be allowed to do that you know it's not a big deal i'm glad you mentioned the thing about uh donald being a white guy because i've i've seen that a lot too and there's and and i i think that it's important to to differentiate that there was uh not this horrible history of of people who were persecuted and and

and and mocked and and and and made fun of it's it's a completely different thing and i i i doesn't have the the stigma that uh that this has well i can hear eddie murphy's uh white guy voice in my head at any point in time and laugh hysterically. It's still one of the greatest bits. I'm buying this. I actually think it was one of the best. I think it's one of the best SNL skits of all time, actually. And Donald, you were particularly hilarious doing that as well. I do want to talk about the other one for a second because there were the two

that we started talking about where Sarah in a fantasy was Donald and then I wasah in a fantasy was donald and then i was donald in a fantasy the other one i i do remember i got to be honest feeling really uncomfortable doing and for those of you listening who don't remember uh donald has an idea that we're going to go to a i think it was called a black and white party at a black fraternity and and he said i go are you something i'm paraphrasing? I watched it. You want the lines? Cause I watched it to prepare for this. And it's, you go, you say, you say, just so you know, you say, are you sure this is going to be okay?

And Donald's like, I'm, I'm going as you, you're going as me, as long as you're with me, it'll be fine. They're going to think it's funny. And, and there you go. So I remember reading this and being uncomfortable about it. And I didn't, I remember not wanting to do it, to be honest. But I didn't want to disappoint anyone. Everyone seemed to think it was funny.

And again, now as an established 45-year-old man, I think I probably would have reacted differently. At the time, I was kind of like, oh, well, I'm going to go along with the joke. And I also remember being so terrified because because keep in mind, there were all these black young men who were playing the college kids. And I said to Scott Harris at the time, who was a black man and one of our assistant directors, I had this makeup on and I said, I'm so uncomfortable, Scott, that these men are not going to know what the joke is. The joke is that JD gets his ass kicked and they throw him out a second story window. But I said, you gotta, I remember being really nervous and saying like, please tell all these men who are the extras, uh, what the

outcome is, what the joke is that I'm, that I'm, my character is an idiot. And then they're going to throw me out a window. And I remember walking up to that set and and feeling really really uncomfortable i do think at the time i thought the joke was funny that donald leaving me i remember he saw like a pretty girl and he goes the idea is that we ring the doorbell and then i'm supposed to be next to my friend and then he goes gina or something and then he walks off what happened last night and then i walk off yeah and he leaves me the guys open the door they pull me and beat the shit out of me off camera and throw me out the second story window um but i remember at the time feeling uh super super uncomfortable but i'm ashamed at myself for not

standing up and and coming to you bill i feel like if i'd come to you you would have said we don't have to do this but i i didn't i was a wimp about it i i well you know it's a good lesson for creators of any kind this is what i I've been thinking about a lot. It's really important to me that on a show that you guys, one of the reasons I think this show worked is every cast member felt, in my head, would always come and go, I think this character would say something more like this. Or I think that it'd be funnier if he or she did this.

Or I think for Carla, I think it'd be better if she and Turk, instead of being sexy, were like this here. And we had that kind of open collaboration. Even in that environment, young actors and actresses so don't want to be people that put a stick in the spokes with the boss. You know what I mean? And don't want to be the person that says, are we sure we should be doing this?

That even if you think you're the most open-minded boss, showrunner, movie director, anything in the world, when there's a differentiation in power, people aren't going to always say, I'm not doing this. I don't want to do this. And that's a weird realization for you if you perceive yourself as like the most open-minded,

you know, of course they would say that. They know they're never going to get fired, in trouble, punished, have less material next week, et cetera. It's just not the way humans work. And it was a big kind of eye-opener for me. The thing I would tell you guys is the dynamic I was just talking about

is even more prevalent in writers rooms because there those are the people that you're directly their boss and one of the hard realizations is even in the most um healthy writers room i'd still say white writers are the majority in there you know even when there are all sorts of people of color you still don't want to be the one in a writer's room the one either white writer or personal color that goes hey boss that thing that other people are laughing at we shouldn't do it because you know to me one of the things i feel shitty about was that you know scrubs that the last episode that did that as 15 years ago that's not that long you know i mean dumbo hear me out dumbo was

joelle how old's dumbo how old is that movie roughly 1936 i want to say let me get you an accurate right but look yeah you know my point being do you is that interesting question because you said i can't watch anymore i used to love it is it different for you if you go something is truly a product of the time something we're talking you know so the gone with the wind argument you know what i mean we we all know that there's still racist tropes in it and there's a lot of people that would argue to the dumbos uh 1941 just got that from uh joelle but you know to me i am harsher on us because it is not that old do you know what I mean to me I do make excuses

in my head I'm asking you honestly because by the way this shit all makes me super uncomfortable like are you going to be able to watch Dumbo again and go with your kids and have go hey it's a product of the times there's certain things I don't like but there's certain things about the movie I don't like

here's the crazy thing Bill that was my favorite part of the movie you know what i mean that moment was my favorite part of the movie and so now it's like holy shit you know what i mean i was at one point when they did the live action version of it i was like man you know what i miss i miss the crows i feel like an asshole and an idiot for that you know what i mean because i wasn't looking at it as i was i wasn't looking at it as that's racist i was looking at it as that was the best part of the movie when i was a kid i loved that part of the movie look when i say i'm ignorant i was gonna say i feel i'm fairly well educated i was never that book smart but zach and i were

randomly talking about this not only did i like you not know that i just let you have jim crow laws i didn't know jim crow was a person with some white dude performing as a minstrel and i had never heard in my entire life of juneteenth until i heard it from a stand-up comic like five years ago and i'm like that's a thing and he was talking about how oh hey other news flash you know texas didn't stop slavery when the war was over, and that's one of the things that lays into this date. They took a second. I didn't know about Black Wall Street, their Tulsa massacre,

until I watched Watchmen on television. Do you know what I mean? And so educationally, ignorance is crazy. It's not built into our system, any of this shit. Well, that's the other thing that, you know, black people have been talking about for a long time. Look, you could teach history, but teach my history, too. You know what I mean? You know what I mean?

For the longest, you know, black history is a small part of the textbooks that we read when we're, you know, you learn more about the Confederacy and you learn more about, you know, that stuff before you know anything about what happened to Africans coming to America and being, you know, being slaves and turned into slaves and stuff like that. So it's only natural that nobody knows about these dates. Nobody knows, you know what I mean? These are stains in America's history, regardless of how- And has that changed now or is that the same that's the same sarah as far as like what's being taught in schools

it's the same and it's and you know it's really it's terrible it's not taught in canada it certainly wasn't when i was growing up and that needs to change and that's why we're here right now you know what i mean one of the things that's coming out of this movement that's really good is that a lot of us who thought we were knowledgeable are able to call ourselves out and go, I don't know shit. I didn't know anything about Juneteenth. I agree with Bill Watchman, which Joelle has written about extensively, educated me on a lot of history. And also just two documentaries I just recently watched. The 13th, which I highly recommend people watch, was something I just blew my mind about the criminal justice system in this country. That's Ava DuVernay, right? Yeah. And another one called Time, which is a series about the bail system and incarceration

in this country. I digress. Just to say that in the spirit of what Bill's saying, I feel like there's, again, this is a moment where we can be educating ourselves and learning. Another thing that thought that came to my mind was that over the years, Donald and I have cringed at people dressing up as Turk and JD for Halloween. And I've been like- I've even gone out of my way to say to people, look, hold on if you're gonna go dressed up as Turk this Halloween that's great just no blackface you know what I

mean I've gone out of my way to say this and every year they tag us and we we cringe and I can't believe people are still doing it and then I had to call myself out and go they're doing it because I did it because well yeah that's what that's what somebody somebody said that shit to me somebody said that to me somebody was like let me just finish the thought they were so i i last night i was like i was like tossing and turning going i had a little bit of a eureka moment i was like that's why all those fucking people probably did it they they they saw that it was okay because we had done it. And that's really fucking embarrassing to me. Well, yeah. I remember I posted that. I said, look, I feel like I have to remind you people

that when you go out this Halloween, if you're going to dress up as Turk and you're not African American, it's not all right to go blackface. And somebody tweeted me back and was like, yeah, but Turk, but Donald, you did this. And they showed a picture of you and me tweeted me back and was like yeah but turk but donald you did this and they showed a picture of you and me me dressed in white face and you dressed in blackface and was like well what about this and i couldn't retort because i was like holy shit that's right we did do this and that's how and i didn't remember that we had done that until that moment you know so there's like these kids that watch the show that like that we this is the thing that makes me cringe and feel horrible and and so uh regretful is that if we contributed in any way to x amount of young people being like oh it's okay because they did it that's what i i truly regret and i'm and i'm so

apologetic about yeah i'm yeah you know bill regardless of how much flack you want to take for this, it's still, we were still in the moment and we were still there and we, you know what I mean? And. No, look, the painful, all of us on the call thought it was funny as shit when we were doing it. We thought we were funny as shit. And it's the kind of the arrogance that comes with success. And it's kind of the arrogance that comes with success.

And, you know, man, it's – I guess I like to think that uncomfortable conversations are good. And people can say the shit they want to say to me. I'm beating myself up plenty. I also do want to talk about, too – I really respect you guys all for doing this. And, Joel, I appreciate you kind of leading us along here too with questions and articles and stuff like that I'm really grateful but the there's also this wave right now as

artists and as actors and actresses and writers directors that you know people are going like oh the PC culture is going to ruin art it's going to ruin art you know and it's not art's going to be fine okay is one thing I want to, it's going to ruin art. It's going to ruin art, you know, and it's not. Art's going to be fine. Okay. Is the one thing I want to say. Art's going to be, and I'm so old and, you know, we're talking about shit we feel uncomfortable about that all comes off this. You know, when I first got into writing comedy, you guys wouldn't, none of the four of you would

believe it, but nine of the 10 writers rooms you would walk into, if there were eight writers, the 10 writers rooms you would walk into, if there were eight writers, it would be seven white dudes and one woman. Okay. And even though there's still tons of way to go, you know, as far as equal representation for not only black writers on shows, but people of color running, creating their own shows, art's better for it. You know, my point being at every stage of my career, there's been some version of this and the end result is not that art's worse. Cause I think TV especially is in a great era right now, you know, for the content, uh, art gets better for it, you know? And so don't beat yourselves up. Keep beating me up because I should have, I was older than you and knew more than you. No, Bill. I mean, I, I do, I, I do. I,

I'm, I'm so sorry. I feel like I shouldn't have done it. I feel like, you know, it's not funny now. It wasn't funny then. And I, I recognize that, um, it hurt people and I would never ever do it again I wish I could take it back the easiest thing to say by the way because a lot of people you know have a lot of different fucking opinions is it's my show tough shit if I uh but if I so if I hurt your feelings I'm super super sorry and if you're one of those people you're like it didn't hurt my feelings and shouldn't go i'm glad that you feel that way you're welcome to but tough shit it's uh it's it's my show i i i get to do what i want in this occasion look back at you i know all you three as people man you're all uh incredibly open-minded incredibly philanthropic uh incredibly kind and we're all able to still be family and close because of it. So again, I'm probably over-talking.

It just bums me out when I hear people beating themselves over something that was my fault. Well, I think the good news is that this has inspired us to educate ourselves and to continue to learn and to not be arrogant about continuing to learn. Well, also, where we are right now as a as a society is a pivotal point and i feel like you know more than ever my voice uh can help you know what i mean and it's something that you know i do want to talk about now. I'm not going to lie. For a long period of time, I was very apprehensive and afraid to talk about stuff because I, you know, my fan base and all of that shit.

But this is way bigger than that. This is my kids' lives. This is my kids' kids' lives. This will go on forever if we don't stand up to it. on forever if somebody if we don't stand up to it and i can't sit back and not say anything about inequality anymore regardless of if it's against african americans if it's against gays i can't not say anything anymore uh women if it's against women i can't not say anything anymore so it's not a it's not a wake-up call for me i was i was woke before this but i'm even more in the fight now you know what i mean i feel like this was you know for for

all of us i feel like this was a a kick in the a kick in the in the private parts but this is unnecessary a necessary kick in the private part yeah but it's a but it's it's it's made it so each and every one of us will check ourselves from here on out. You know what I mean? And that's, you know. Joelle, do you want to say anything? You've been helpful in getting us educated in ways that I don't think we were. And I just want to know if you wanted to add anything.

I guess I just have a question at this point. I believe that when you're making an apology, it's a three part process. And that process is a admitting it, which we've done, apologizing to the people that were hurt, which you guys have done. But then see, and Donald did it a little bit just now, but it's making a plan going forward so that not only does this not happen again, but that we make it better and easier for people coming up. And I just want to ask you guys what you're going to do about it because we know that there's systemic racism and all of you have access and power in the industry to make active changes. And so when I ask you, what do you think you can do? changes. And so when I ask you, you know, what do you think you can do? Yeah, going forward, I want to continue to learn and to read all the books that have been recommended to me. And I want to continue talking to my kids about race. But now it will be more informed. And

most importantly, in terms of projects going forward, I will use my voice every time something is not right. Yeah, I think I agree. A lot of the stuff I've been reading has inspired me to want to be more involved. I think for a while I was just saying, well, I'm not a racist person. And my favorite human being on earth is a black man. Like, you know, I was sort of resting on these ridiculous laurels and not being proactive and taking action. And now I think with what's going on in the country and what we're all reading about,

what we're all learning about watching these documentaries, I mean, I want to actively get involved in making a change. Bill? Yeah, look, to me, it's a bigger question i'll tell you an embarrassing story is um it's it involves defining what the word enough means to you like am i doing enough right and it's going to be different for every people and you can't define it and uh i am definitely the type of person that for a long time, um, felt like, uh, uh, I'm doing enough, you know, like spin city is, uh, you know,

I had a gay black regular that it wasn't the joke, you know what I mean? And, uh, got all these awards for it early on. And so I was always patting myself on the back and then one of the, and, you know, and, and most of my shows and staffs have been diverse in either in front of behind the camera, or both. And then I was trying to think about it because I thought you might ask something like this. And I did a show once, and I don't want to mention the show because I don't want to mention somebody. It wasn't his fault, in which I wasn't going to run the show.

So I was going to write it with a young writer that was on one of my shows, supervise him. And I was really proud and excited because the show got picked up and we went to those TCAs. The panel was, I was like, this is cool because this network hasn't really done this. This is an hour-long television show that the four regulars on the show, the four actors, and these guys have all sat up there, are an Asian guy, two black guys, and a Latina woman. And, you know, so i'm patting

myself on the back and raising my arms and one of the first questions is why are two white guys writing this and uh the you know and it was a reporter because i've been doing this for a long time that uh was nice to me and didn't make a huge issue out of it but the real question was why did i pick you know i mean uh a dude it's not it's not that young guy's fault who any young guy going i've never created the tv show my boss of this many years is picking me to do one do you know i mean uh uh any dude would go fuck yeah let's do it you know and that should have been a slightly longer search process to mock myself you know and that's the change in thinking of what is enough but i made one of those key mistakes that for me makes my enough not good enough anymore you know and uh it's really i don't know

who the first person that said it was but one of these things that was all over the vernacular was not enough to be not a racist. It's enough to be anti-racist. And my son asked what that meant. And I told him that it meant what it meant for me was that countless times I've been somewhere where I've heard some dude, and we know the guy, make a blatantly racist joke amongst a bunch of people drinking beers to test the water and I was fine going all right that guy's a dick I'm never gonna I'm not gonna laugh at all and he's not gonna be in my world and I just don't laugh and move on uh and that's a shade different than having the courage to go hey dude shut the fuck up than having the courage to go, hey, dude, shut the fuck up. Right.

Right? And so those two metaphors, that metaphor to me, those two things are very similar. So for me, what it means going forward is adjusting that shit. So that's where I'm at. Joel, I'm going to be honest with you. I'm going to educate myself more so I can talk about a lot of the history of my people and be able to speak knowledgeably of it and not talk out of my ass.

You know what I mean? That's one way that I'm going to change who I am. Instead of being just okay with, all right, I'm an African American man in this industry and I've made it this far. I'm a great example. I'm a firm believer of bringing the next one up and helping those behind me and who don't have the opportunities that I have. And so I plan on investing in, you know, African-American communities, whether it be my time or my knowledge of my experience. I plan on doing that.

I plan on, you know, talking to the youth about my experience. Because at the end of the day, I can't sit on everything that I've learned so far. I feel like if I just sit on it and keep it for myself, I'm a stingy individual and I'm not pushing forward equality. And so all my experiences and everything that I've gone through and educating myself are in my immediate future. I'll say that it's amazing that all of you guys want to educate yourselves and are starting that journey i think that is i think this is especially as a black community has said over and over again like that's the least that's the first thing and i think it's it's an important part but i hope that especially as um you guys continue on your journeys and

continue to join shows that you'll look around at your staff and see who's missing and call it out when you see it. Because to me, especially as a black person who's been in Hollywood for six years and walking around and seeing who gets to come up and seeing, you know, the way a lot of young black people are treated on sets, the way they're sort of frequently run out. You know, we've just heard the thing that was happening on glee and a lot of these situations you know

again not that long ago five or six years ago and it's still a struggle and so now that you guys have have said all this and and and i think done the first work of making sure that you know past mistakes are called out and and you're being held accountable which is great there's still so many people who are willing to hide and just be like, oh, that was long ago and I didn't know. So I think this is a great first step. And I hope to see you guys continue to do more. Joelle, is it always going to make me feel this uncomfortable?

Is that part of it? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I've been black and American uncomfortable my whole life. I think you'll be okay. By the way, I'm so glad you said that. I was going for the setups in case you wanted to actually. I read you both. I see it.

Imagine she was like, no, it won't be this uncomfortable. It's going to be a piece of cake. It's going to be a piece of cake. Is there something Joelle can do to make me feel better about the way this is going? Joelle, can you make this easier? You have jokes, though. Stop.

I think it's good in all aspects of our lives to have the uncomfortable conversations. There was a thing my father used to say, breakdowns lead to breakthroughs. And I think that's good to have some breakthroughs in our lives. I want to thank everybody for listening. Tomorrow we'll be back with the regular podcast. But we didn't want to just send out a tweet or put out a statement i i think it was something that was on all of our minds to just

kind of get together and and talk so and uh zach is uh not speaking for you guys i didn't you know when i did this uh i'm sorry if it affected any of you i didn't put out any statement or anything like that because those always seemed to me like uh hey, I'm apologizing now that I think I might be in trouble. It's just part of the toxic nature of the internet and part of reality of that. But I would say too that I'm sure you guys are cool with it too. I'm willing to talk to anybody and anyone in a cool, constructive forum about any of this stuff uh including you know my own shortcomings with it and i'm grateful you guys do you want journalists to hit you up is

that what you're saying i think things like this you guys have a big audience in this podcast and i think anything where you reach people anything where you reach people i hope you guys will do it with me and continue to do that um you can shoot the shit and answer questions with no rules and all that stuff i'm i'm always down for it if you guys want to yes um thank you guys thank you uh joelle for uh moderating and sort of uh really helping uh be a great producer of the show sarah our favorite canadian thanks for coming thanks for having me. And we love you guys. Thank you for listening and tune in tomorrow for the very last episode of season one with guest stars

Bill Lawrence and Krista Miller. I think we should end in song, Donald, no? Yeah, it's the first episode I've ever been on that I didn't say five, six, seven, eight.

I know. You just did it, though. No, no. We're not going to count that one. Donald, let's change the tone and lead us in song. Thank you, everybody, for listening. 5, 6, 7, 8! I said he's got stories that we all should know. So gather round to hear our, gather round to hear our Scrubs Rewatch Show with Zach and Donald.