Financial Feminist - 103. Becoming an Uncontrollable Woman with Hannah Berner (Berning in Hell Crossover)

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

“When you have money, you are no longer controllable.” On today’s episode, we’re sharing a conversation between Hannah Berner (Berning in Hell) and Tori about all the bullsh*t narratives surrounding gender when it comes to career and money, including Hannah’s experiences in the male-dominated world of stand-up comedy, negotiating her worth in her first jobs, and how they’re both dismantling spaces typically gatekept by men. Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at: https://herfirst100k.com/start-here-financial-feminist-podcast  Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're not a lottery winner, I actually talk about in my book that like money can buy you happiness. Like that is a narrative, especially for women. We've been told like money can't buy you happiness. Like don't pursue money. It's gauche. It's evil. And I'm like money is inherently neutral. Like it is morally neutral.

And I want money to provide me options and power and all of the fun shit and ease and stability and safety. And I argue that's fucking happiness. Hi, financial feminists. Hello. Hello, hello, hello. Happy to see you. I'm always trying to figure out how to start these episodes in a way that isn't just like me saying the same thing over and over again, but it might just be me saying the same thing over again and that's okay. Welcome back to the show. Excited to see you. We have got a great one today. If you have been on TikTok or Instagram for any amount of time, you know who this is and you might not know her name, but you definitely know her face and you know her comedy.

I am so excited. Hannah Burner, I am guesting on her show today. We did kind of this like episode swap that ended up being just her interviewing me, but not that that was not my intent. And I want to be clear, like I felt kind of bad after and I apologize to her. And she's like, I just had so many questions for you. So we will definitely have her back on the show for more of a dedicated episode about her. I'm so excited for this conversation today that will be enlightening, not just about money and my perspective on it. I have a lot of soapbox moments in this episode, but also about dating and about navigating and all of that. And also about women in comedy, which I always love talking about. Hannah Berner was born in Brooklyn, New York, and played competitive tennis for the University of

Wisconsin. She emerged on the comedy scene by directing, editing, and acting in videos on Instagram and writing viral tweets. She has two podcasts, Giggly Squad and Burning in Hell, with over 35 million downloads. She was a co-host on Bravo's Chat Room, as well as a member of Bravo's Summer House for three seasons, and has over 3.5 million followers across her social media platforms. She currently performs stand-up comedy in NYC and at clubs and theaters around the country. In 2022, she was named one of Just for Laughs' new faces of comedy in Montreal. And she was recently named one of Variety's top 10 comics to watch in 2023. Hell fucking yeah, Hannah.

Hannah is an advocate for mental health, animals, and napping. And we did this collaborative episode where we talked about everything again, from like dating to the wage gap to investing and my secret tip for negotiating. We had a blast during this conversation. I think you're going to love it. It's very, very easy to share with your friends and talk about it. So let's go ahead and get into it. first a word from our sponsors i played the more theater in Seattle. Yeah. Oh, that's kind of big. It's a fancy.

Yeah. Well, I did a small one like a year ago. Yeah, that's great. I'll see. I'll see. That was where Whose Line Is It Anyway was. Really? Yeah.

Oh, my God. I love them. They give a big... No, no, no. It works. They commandeer a big crowd because Ryan Stiles is from outside of Seattle. Oh. So the fact that that's big. you whose lines anyways like i will say this has nothing to do with you there are two balconies second balcony is like you're just like cramped in there in terms of like seating it's like not the best experience but that won't matter for you honestly theaters

are like never ideal with the seating like i prefer comedy clubs but that's a big that's a big deal girl congratulations thank you okay hi guys my name is hannah burner hi i'm tori dunlap and today we have a remix beautiful fusion episode of burning in hell and financial feminist wow that was really good. We didn't even practice. That was so great. We did not practice. We didn't even practice.

No, I'm so excited to be here with you because Burning in Hell is talking to people about their demons and stuff, stuff that keeps them up at night, but also we laugh about it. Yeah. And I think finance is hell to a lot of people. I hate to pull out the stats this early, but it's the number one hell for people. It's the number one hell. Wait, it's the number one hell. Wait. Is when you ask people, like, what are you most stressed about?

It's not like my job or like my stupid boyfriend. It's like it's money. I'm obsessed with that because I feel like a lot of my listeners, I've never talked about anything financially related. And it's such a big part of, you know, people's lives. The only thing I know about finance is that they say, like, after a certain amount of money of essentials, money can actually make you more depressed. Like, there is more money, more problems. Like lottery winners. Sure. Oh, gosh.

Yeah. Because I think really with lottery winners, it's been proven it's people get a lot of money and then they have no idea what the fuck to do with it. Yeah. with lottery winners it's been proven it's people get a lot of money and then they have no idea what the fuck to do with it yeah and so it's almost like it's just like too much and then they don't know how to manage it responsibly so they blow it on a bunch of stupid shit yeah and then they're like depressed because they don't or they think because i have money now i should be happy yeah when they realize that it doesn't really change who they are as people and the stuff that they need to work on internally yep they're like what the fuck's life life isn't supposed to be like this but if you're not a lottery winner i? Life isn't supposed to be like this.

But if you're not a lottery winner, I actually talk about in my book that money can buy you happiness. That is a narrative, especially for women. We've been told, money can't buy you happiness. Don't pursue money. It's gauche. It's evil. And I'm like, money is inherently neutral.

It is morally neutral. And I want money to provide me options and power and all of the fun shit. And ease and stability and safety. And I argue that's fucking happiness. me options and power and all of the fun shit and like ease and stability and safety and i argue that's fucking happiness so i love that so much because i'm in a place where i'm married to an older man and i joke like i'm with a zappy didn't you just like come out and talk about it i wasn't i i thought it was like a secret for a really long time the thing is i had done reality tv like years ago and afterwards i was like i don't need to like put my relationship in the public anymore i really that's what i'm doing i like people if you're listening close enough like

no i'm dating somebody i do not talk about it it's just the least interesting thing about me thank you thank you or it's not like why i want people to follow me the amount of people who also like there's no shame to people i know people i love them they make content about their relationship yeah and i see it pop off and i'm like i know i could monetize this relationship and make so much money my husband's a comedian i could be doing so much stuff but the irony of that is like literally i'm like why can't me my book becoming a new york times bestseller get as many likes as a boyfriend announcement it won't it won't but but i would argue it can if you're really doing what's right and And the boyfriend announcement is not going to, like, you're going to have to keep coming up with reasons why people are interested. And people want drama at the end of the day.

That's true. And they want you to have these long, fake captions about, like, the ups and downs. And, like, I just, I'm not, like, I can't do it. But what I love about your book, so it's called. I had a copy for you, by the way. Completely forgot it. No, it's totally fine. Completely forgot it.

So I will send you one. What if, I think I ordered it already. That's nice. way. Completely forgot it. No, it's totally fine. Completely forgot it. So I will send you one. What if I think I ordered it already? That's nice. I might have ordered it. No, you do. You know, I'm like a longtime fan. Emily, I've been following. You came up on my TikTok because TikTok algorithm is fucking dope.

And it was you were just like, look, like money is power. But I was saying with my mans, I want an older man. And I was like, don't be with an older man unless you the power dynamic is not going to be too extreme. Like if you're 24, you have no money and you're with a man with money. Like I personally don't feel comfortable with that unless if I feel like super, super safe in the situation. Like I'm in a place where I don't need him. I just want him. I just want him. That's the thing people, I think, miss about, like, money and relationships is even though we've come so far, all the shit's happened, it's still 2023. And, like, I have friends who are like, yeah, like, we're fine, but, like, I can't afford my own apartment. Yeah. Which is not necessarily their fault.

It's all of the systemic issues. But, like, they're in a relationship because they're like this is convenient this is financially convenient emotionally convenient like i can't break up with him because i what would i do i don't i can't have my own place all i've talked about on this season of my podcast was literally just like this feeling of we as human beings are biologically like we're uncomfortable with uncomfortability like we do not like being uncomfortable and when you tell someone like i'm telling you're gonna figure it out they like don't like that no they're like but i have it figured out right now but i'm like you're miserable though right right i always tell people because i i'm like i'm toxic and that i'll be like leave your fucking job. You have one life.

Like, I'll do that all the time to people. And then I'm like, okay, maybe like, just I don't want people to do things to stay in something that they don't have to when they can make money doing something else, but they just can't see it. Because I'm someone who didn't want to do comedy because I thought I couldn't afford that lifestyle. That was just like, I'd rather not be alive than not to comedy so it was kind of like but you figure I'm like you've always figured it out up

until this point right so like why not now and but as someone who now is like has her own business and I'm hiring people and stuff yeah this systemic situation and just the vibe with women is wild because for example i'll ask comics to open for me on the road yeah and the girlies this is what they do they go i'll do it for free i just want to be on the road no stop it i want to be on the road i won't pay for just put me they'll think i ask a guy and they go and i'll say hey this is what i pay and they go i'm gonna need more than that so i was in a situation where i literally have a girl on the east Coast being like, I'll do it for free. I'll do it for free. Guy on the West Coast being like, I need to get paid this amount. So I'm like, okay, I'll pay him that. And then I messaged the girl and I'm like, you're getting paid this amount. She starts freaking out. And

I'm going to tell her when I'm in person and just be like, by the way, you know, the dudes are doing this. So you need to do that. And I've had the girlies need to talk. That's the thing. But I'm that girly. I'm her. Right. What people don't realize, especially women, is like when you accept opportunities for free, all of the rest of us suffer too. You know, I'm a content creator, influencer.

And it's like people accept brand deals for free. I got asked to speak. I'll drop Amazon. Amazon messaged me like, hey, we would love to have you come speak. And I go, cool. What's your budget? That's the question. That's the question. What's your budget? And they go, oh, well, we don't have one, but we were hoping you would come speak anyway. And the powerful thing about what's your budget is one, I don't have to give a number first. And two, you look fucking stupid when you come back

to me and you're like, exposure is my budget. You're doing a project without a budget. Yeah. Right. And you're Jeff Bezos. Right. And when you accept things for free, what's happening, right, is that it's not only hurting you and your finances and your career and all of these things. But then brands get used to or companies or whatever get used to saying like, oh, yeah, OK.

Yeah. This person did it for free. Yeah. I'll go to the next person if you're not going to do it right it is such a vibe because I've had multiple women tell me they're going to do stuff like for free or like right I don't want you to be uncomfortable whatever and then you start in your head being like well girls just do stuff because they want to be nice and I see no you're generalizing all women in the work field.

And next thing you know, women are getting paid. I mean, that's not the reason, but the wage. I have a lot of stand up about my jokes about wage gaps. Like I love a wage because it's fucking true. Yeah. But I'm so bad at negotiating. Like, first of all, I always speak first because I'm a chatter. So I lay it all out.

Can I give you a tip for that? Yeah. Drink. Have something in your hand literally like if especially if you're doing it over the phone yeah have something in your hand that you have to like or before you speak in person literally grab your water and take a drink because it forces you to slow down and in negotiations people aren't comfortable with silence I'm so bad with silence. And also, I'm a very intuitive, sensitive person where I know exactly what they want me to say. So I'll just do it. I know what they want me to do, and I'll do it. And I want them to feel comfortable. If they have a family, I'm like, you have a family. I'll pay you. I'll pay you. I don't

have children. We'll figure this out. So what happens is the way I solve this was now I just have an agent that does it for me. Which is not a bad idea. They're going to take 15% of it. Yeah. But a lot of industries, you don't need an agent and you're the one who's doing it for yourself. Right. Or if you're just trying to negotiate with your boss or a potential boss, that's what I help millions of women do. There's this feeling of, I should just be grateful for what I have. And my not so conspiracy conspiracy theory is that is perpetuated by the patriarchy to keep you underpaid and overworked. Right. It's just like, don't talk about money. Money is taboo. Right. Or money can't buy you happiness. My first job I got paid was like 38k.

And I was like, I, and it was like a video where I was like, I went to college. I was 20, like, it was crazy. But you know, actually my first first first job was sales and the base was so fucking low. But then I was doing really well. So I was on top. Yes. It was kind of like, yeah, I have the lowest base out of everyone on the team, but I'm selling the most. So, like, fuck you. And I remember I didn't know I had the lowest base. And then eventually another woman was like, oh, you're at 30. I'm at 60. Right. And I remember thinking like I was so conned. That is the power, especially with women as white women talking with our women of color colleagues. Like you have a responsibility to talk about money. And we're before we started like we are more likely to talk about any other uncomfortable topic. We'll talk about death, sex, politics, religion, before we'll have a conversation about money.

I feel like men only talk about money. Yeah. They talk about, like, their gains and Robin Hood. And it's also socially acceptable, right? It's socially acceptable for men to go out on the golf course and, like, talk about how their stocks are performing. Because we're greedy. Exactly.

The amount of TikTok comments I get on the daily of just, like, you brag a lot about your accomplishments. And I'm like, you are the same person who's like, worshipping at Elon Musk's feet. Like, there's such a double standard. The sexism is rampant. right and you think about like if there's a guy again golf course instagram photo with the rolex the comments are like cool rolex bro you're doing well for yourself right yeah if i show up in a designer dress or something that might seem to be expensive the comments are not like great it's daddy's money or husband's money yeah or it's why aren't you donating more okay i have so many thoughts about this i remember a lot men have the thing that they're the caretakers right which is so funny because who's actually taking care of the children

it's if you think about it and also women are making the buying decisions yes like so that's the fucking thing is the patriarchy manage the majority of finances yeah but the patriarchy and i'm fully everyone's guilty of like internal misogyny. Oh, yeah. Because that's what we were raised with. And patriarchy hurts men as much as it hurts women. And Disney. Which we're like, sure. But like, I think of a man and you're like, oh yeah, you have to pay him money. He's a man. He's 35.

He needs to pay him money. He's providing for his family. Or like, he even does have family. But I'm like, but he's a man. I can't underpay a man. But then a woman, you're like, like, it's fucked up. But you're like, she's like me. Like, we just want every

she wants to be happy she wants me to be happy we don't need like we're fine and like where did why is that okay well we weaponize women's altruism that's the interesting thing so i talk about this in my book we we have very like i'm talking in a very gender binary here but like the way we raise boys is so different than the way we raise girls. Boys are given trucks, Legos, things to build. They're told that their value to society is in their own confidence, their own ingenuity, their own thoughts. What do we give girls? We give a two-year-old another kid to take care of.

How fucked is that? Like, we tell her, here's your easy bake oven, here's your bridal veil, here's your doll, here's your Barbie, right? We tell her that your value in society is not your own thoughts. It's in how much of yourself can you give to somebody else, which is beautiful in a way, right? Like, I love that about being a woman. I love that I think about other people before I think about myself. Like, I love that. But what happens then when a woman starts becoming more successful? We weaponize that altruism and we go, well, why aren't you donating more? You're so selfish. You're so greedy. You're so ungrateful. But really what's happening is it's like, you are no longer controllable. when you have money you're no

longer fucking controllable i just got chills so when you get to a point when you are asking for more money when you are negotiating when you are investing and growing your wealth and paying off debt and you don't have to fucking answer to anybody the patriarchy is like shit we can't control her anymore so we're gonna tell her she's greedy or we're gonna tell her like yeah why aren't you donating more like why that's such a frivolous purchase. Frivolous purchases, by the way, are only feminine. They're only lattes and manicures. They're not NFL season tickets.

They're not golf clubs. Wow. So literally, this is like the entire thesis of my work in my book. But like, that's the that's what we're up against. Also, like luxury bags are like they're actually more affordable than like Rolexes. Something about like, you know, trading Nike shoes on either like that's like washes these oh i am i am about like i want money i want to be rich i am unapologetically that i am a multi-millionaire i'll say it i love it but at some point i'm like it's just too much money like it's too much money but also at some

point you're like how many people are you hiring and paying like literal exploitation? Yeah, that's my thing. Like, that's why I like Sarah Blakely. Doesn't she like give people raises and shit? I joke that there's like three billionaires that can stay. It's Sarah Blakely, Oprah, and like Rihanna. And those three that can stay.

But that's the thing about capitalism. And it's something that I've like grappled with in my own work because I'm like, I don't want to win capitalism because that means I've exploited somebody most likely. Right. But I can't lose capitalism because that means deep suffering for me and my family and my community. And I think. It's doing as well as you can without doing it under the table and illegally. Totally. Like that's the thing about like, I'm obviously extremely liberal and socialist and progressive.

And what some of the TikTok comments I get is it's like, you're in love with capitalism. And I'm like, no, I'm in love with like stability. Yeah. And figuring out what the cards were dealt, how to survive in this life and be happy. Getting money so that I can pay people well and give people jobs and donate to causes I believe in. And yes, go on fucking dope trips to Europe. The men stuff fascinates me because like I'm dealing with men and women that I hire and stuff. And it's not like the men are smarter than the other women or have more experience than other women.

Of course they're not. Why? Like they just naturally, the men will always ask for more money. And to the point that I always go, this guy has some balls. Right. The guy knows that I'm thinking in my head, this guy has balls. Right. And the girl knows if she asked for it, I would say this girl has balls. But she doesn't want to deal with that conflict maybe. And he's fine with it. Well, because we, again, are told like you should just be grateful. And often what

happens, and this is where it's like lofty as it sounds, like you have to couple like societal change around money and minimum wage increases and student debt forgiveness and all of that with like women ask for more money because that's the wage gap thing always is it's like the answer to that is like women are not asking as much as men are. And that stat is true. However, when women do ask, they are less likely to get it. Exactly. Which tells you that it's also the system that exists. Right. So we have certain expectations or certain biases. Right. Where men can ask for more money and you're like oh yeah

okay they're fucking on their shit yeah women ask for money and it's kind of like okay like yeah it makes even women uncomfortable it's so fucked up yeah my thing is i dealt with that in like corporate america yeah and like hired by other women where like they just didn't want to pay me men were trying to take credit for my work creatively right like i was in a really bad situation once and i basically was like okay i guess i need to go out on my own so the only way i've been able to succeed is with money is by i couldn't beat the man well my question for you because working in comedy too obviously, obviously. Oh, yeah. As somebody who works now in finance.

It's a very male-dominated field. So male-dominated. So what was the transition for you and, like, the feelings of, oh, shit, okay, if I'm going to go for it, are you the kind of person who's like, okay, I'm going to play by the men's rules in order to navigate this? So I have a unique situation where I was an athlete. So I grew up a tennis player, which meant that like I was always training with guys. I've always been around guys. I'm I have a brother and a dad that I'm very close to where I do think comedy. Some women are so funny. But when they start, you know, going to the clubs late at night and have to perform with all these men, they're like, you know what? this is not for me because it's not made like in a comfortable way for women so that's why a lot of women drop out um well and the sexual

harassment and all that stuff yeah 100 100 yeah so i think with me i kind of was like i feel like i was put on this earth to like disrupt male dominated spaces like that's my little kink sounds about right so like that's why i feel connected to you so i'm like i don't know why but i feel like for whatever reason i feel comfortable in this environment to i get a kick out of it yeah i love it and i love men i i have this like unique way to be like i love you guys you are so sharing i love it but i want yeah but i also like i'm here so like make it work and the internet has been an incredible way for women who are really funny to be seen. A lot of women have discovered me through TikTok and are now going to comedy clubs, which were never a real like safe space for women.

Like, you know, I heard the girls be like, let's go to a comedy club tonight. It's not like they'd rather do brunch. They want to do something in daytime, safe. Like, let's do something that's safe. A comedy club full of male comedians that are making rape jokes is not always, like, that's what they think, stereotypically, what a club could be.

Which it sometimes is. It sometimes has been. I saw Louis C.K. on the street last time I was here in New York. Oh my God. He literally, I walked right past him and made eye contact with him. And I'm like, it felt like seeing a ghost.

I was like, what the fuck are you doing out I could not believe it I literally like I waited for him to pass and then I turned around and like watched him keep walking New York is the craziest place ever and then I also saw James Franco on that same trip like it was just like the hall of fame it was really crazy I didn't mean to cut you off but it was just like you were like rape jokes and i was like but it's now i'm trying to like now the girlies when they all know they're all gonna be there it's like my shows have become this like clubs are like we've never seen this many women in one place that's so fucking cool which it's cool but it's also kind of crazy like i played this theater in las vegas they're like we've never seen this many women here and i'm

like you guys have been playing forever like how is right but I think cuz girls can safely see my jokes and see what I'm doing online they'll then be like okay I feel like this is a safe place because I think women are so fucking hilarious and I would argue that a lot of the whole meme culture is a lot of like women and gay men behind it oh so yes men will see something funny and share it yes i mean don't even get me started on black twitter but like people are just seeing the words right so they don't know they don't have the immediate bias of like this was written by like a black woman or this is written by you know an older person instead they just see it as funny well i think what your content does so well too we were joking about like how many tampons in a

week like it's it's content that works this is like the like me putting like my social media hat on but it works for like both audiences where the women can send it to their partners or their male friends that's and be like be like see, and then men are learning something too. Well, I like men to be in on the joke with me. I will go so hard at them, but they are enjoying it. I like the tension of having men and women there, but if it was an all-woman crowd, we love it, but then people start bringing their boyfriends, so I started to be like, okay, I have to address this, and I have fun with that tension because let's be honest like the men are here to stay right we need them we look like we need them in some capacity so it's like finding that way and I also I love like

trying to educate men like my favorite thing is to be like are you a feminist and for them to say no and then for me to be like so you don't believe that I should have the same opportunity and this as you right and they're like well you're not equal I'm like we're not asking to be like, are you a feminist? And for them to say no. And then for me to be like, so you don't believe that I should have the same opportunity as you. And they're like, well, you're not equal. I'm like, we're not asking to be equal. We're definitely different. Right. I want the same opportunity. It's equity. And equity. Right. Equality and equity are two different things. Yeah. I'm like, I'm different than you. Right. Right. But and then, yeah, so I feel like there's a lot of misrepresentation when it comes to what a feminist is. Do you still get the like women aren't funny? So I recently did a TikTok asking men on the street, like, why do people say women aren't funny?

Because my videos go like viral, viral. You know, it's out of your like people who normally like your stuff. Lord, don't I know it. It is crazy. It immediately is just women aren't funny. Women aren't funny. Women aren't funny. And I'm I when I first saw that.

You know what? You're uncontrollable. It's all back to that. So I asked I asked men about it and they were't funny. Women aren't funny. Women aren't funny. And I'm I when I first saw that. You know what? You're uncontrollable. It's all back to that. So I asked I asked men about it and they were so funny. They were like, it's like you're taking our jobs. Like literally like like men. Funny is like how they get girls and and wealth and like personality. Did you see the stat that it's like, what is it?

When in heteronormative relationships, when a woman says like I'm I'm attracted to humor, it is I'm attracted to a funny man. When men say, I want a sense of humor in women, it is she laughs at my jokes. Not she's funny. She laughs at my jokes. And true intimacy is two people laughing at the same time. But, you know, you'll see people who are like, embroider that on a little pillow. And am I guilty of mercy laughing at hot men abso-fucking-lutely i've done it i'm human okay yeah but it's funny because so i ask

all these male comics i was like why do you think i get the women aren't funny stuff and and they were just like it's such a stupid trope whatever and then men were mad in the comments being like she must have deleted all the bad stuff no no you're talking to professional male comedians who are surrounded by the funniest women in the world right who like no who would deal with stupid men like you who go up to them and say i think i could be a comedian too right and it's like they still they still feel that way but it's like tell me my joke wasn't funny you don't have to say all women aren't funny but it's i'm like are we in the 1920s it's a serena williams thing too i think they did a stat that it was like 40 of men think they could beat serena williams

did have you seen this yes no i'll break something over like a third i'll break something like an average not even like eight like a good tennis player lefty shenant and lefty. She will beat 99% of the men in America. Oh, probably 99.9. Men believe that they could beat Serena Williams in a round of tennis. I'm actually working on a bit about this, about the male confidence. Because I was thinking about how men are pilots and women aren't pilots. One, I don't have a driver's license because I'm from New York and I'm really bad at driving. So I should never be a pilot. And maybe for some reason, men are like better drivers. I appreciate that we're both gymming the camera. Like I really, I do it all the time. If there's a camera on, I am like, I live for the camera. I'm gymming too. I'm making eye contact with you and the people at home. I'm just so glad you did it too. Cause I, I was literally on an interview once and I just kept

gymming the camera and they called me on it. They're like, you can't do the office right now. interview once and I just kept jimming the camera and they called me on it they're like you can't do the office right now and I was like no I'm connecting with a person at home who's taking time out of their day to talk to me I'll make some eye contact shit so anyway pilots I was like is part of it that like men have that like healthy delusion that they're like I could fly a plane it's literally fucking I feel like women would never be like I could fly a plane? No, it's literally fucking now. Because I feel like women would never be like, I could fly a plane. Haven't you seen the Denzel Washington movie where he like, I think he snorts coke and then he like is drunk and then the plane has to,

he has to fly it upside down. So there's, have you seen this movie? No, yes, there's a TikTok going around. I think it's just called Flight. People asking their boyfriends like, if the plane is going down, do you think you can get to the front and save? And they'll be like, absolutely, yes.

So, like, there's this, it's scary. Well, isn't it a trend on TikTok? What is it, Delulule? Delusional? Delusional land. Yeah. So, what is, there's a thing where men, for whatever reason, it's like 80% of life is you just trying to do something. Yes. of life is you just trying to do something yes and i think so many women do not try things because

they're they want to be perfect when they do it where men are like i i'm perfect because i'm a man and i'll figure it out as i do it i wish i could remember her name she founded i think girls who code and she said we teach men the value of like pursuing yes and we teach women to avoid failure at all costs like so dangerous that's what we teach boys is we teach boys like fall and skin your knee doesn't matter you get back up and you do it again yeah but we teach women like you're be so scared of skinning your knee because it might mean you're not perfect then they say like men will apply for jobs they're not qualified for and women are jobs that they're way over qualified for sorry i will like jizz talking about this i love it so much you're just pulling we're both pulling stats out of nowhere i'm here for it i fucking love it i repeat it to myself with the mirror yep because

i'm for whatever reason i was that person that was like i applied for a job i had no zero i was not qualified for but i came in with ideas i was look, I know I don't have five years of video editing experience, but these are all the ideas I want to make for your brand. And like, I know that you need someone who's my age, who speaks to millennial women and who gets it. We call those bridge skills. It's the things that like you already know how to do, even though you don't necessarily have the resume to prove it. And it's like, I can take this skill that I already have and apply it to this particular thing. So I literally tell people when they're going in for a job interview, like, look at the like, bullet points and be like, you know, they're like,

I need a team player. And it's like, okay, here are all of the times I was a team player at this job that has nothing to do with this job. But like, I can apply these skills because skills are teachable characters. Oh, I love that so much much and I also feel like when I read this thing about experience that said like doctors actually with more experience are not always the better doctors it's the ones who are like more passionate and like sometimes are more refreshed on stuff so experience does not equate to like being better at what you do and and you also don't have bad habits this is what I tell because I get a lot of like 20 something women who are you know just out of college and they're like, nobody's going to hire me. First of all, this whole you should be grateful, especially for, like, new grads or people who are getting their first job and they'll fucking take anything.

You should negotiate. You can negotiate and you should. It's, again, like, the classic male confidence versus women is we're told to play small because the moment again the moment we start playing big i know i sound like a broken record but like the rest of society is like fuck she's no longer controllable so how can we make sure that she keeps playing small also this is my thing when when you have like a boss and you're negotiating me saying this isn't good enough for me i want more makes me think that he thinks i'm difficult and gonna be hard to work with yeah that word so immediately i'm gonna be like he wants something i'm like i'm so easy i'm so chill i'm it's the same thing with like dating right oh for sure and it's the cool

girl oh my god that's such a great comparison because i i was definitely guilty of like cool girl pick me vibes when i was in my 20s it would be like it's gone girl shit yes it would be like like so hot in the room and he and he'd be like uh I don't want to turn the air conditioning on I'd be like yeah I'm fine and I'm like dying of heat like I'm so chill I'll watch any movie the second I realized that when I was like being authentic to myself I actually would attract the right people and be in the right situation it's just we have this scarcity mindset sometimes that like I got this job offer. I think it's gonna be really good. I don't want to fuck it up.

Yep. Yep. I mean, that's everything. And so what happens is, and again, there's also bias here where when we do negotiate, there's people who don't love it. But it's like, we're so scared of losing something, right? Again, so scared of failing that we're not going to do it. And it's like, typically the worst they can say is no.

I have seen the occasional, like they've rescinded the job offer, but that's not a company you want to work for anyway. Like they have done you a favor. If they are not willing to have a conversation about compensation with you, they are not going to be willing to see your value during your entire tenure of employment. So it's like the worst they can say is like, no. No. during your entire tenure of employment. So it's like the worst they can say is like, no, no. Do you have any rules about when you get offered a certain deal? Yes. Like have you, do you ever take it for what it is?

Very rarely. We almost always negotiate. This is where the like, what's your budget question? If you work for yourself, if you're a freelancer, it also, if you're like a nine to fiver, like the question that is still asked in job interviews all the time is like, what are your salary expectations? And you're like, I don't fucking know. I hate when they ask that. I'll always be like the smallest number I can think of.

Right. So the answer to like, what are your salary expectations is it's too early in the process for me to adequately price myself. But I'd love to know your budget. And nine times out of 10, they'll give it to you. Nine times out of ten, they'll give it to you. So let's say, let's say I want to do

a brand deal with you. Yes. I say, oh my God, we're obsessed with you. We love you. We'd love to have you on. Can you do a post for $2,000? First of all,

any number that they're giving you, they expect you to go higher. Yes. People have to know that. This is a dance. For brand deals, for companies, because companies, brands, whether, again, nine to five employment, entrepreneurship, influencer, like, they expect you to negotiate. And when you don't, one, it looks like, oh, maybe they're not as good as they showed in the interview where they're showing on social media because they're not as good as they they showed in the interview where they're showing on social media

because they're not negotiating and you're about to lose out on a bunch of money or you have the situation where somehow you spoke first and right just take it and you go fuck that's the thing if if you this is this is why we don't give a number first because if you give a number first and they're like yeah cool that's too low they they should push back because your number's too high so the goal with a negotiation right is like you and your boss or this brand are not on opposing teams you're on the same team right and that's one of the common things i hear is people are like oh i'm so scared because it's like a fight right it's an argument no it is a collaboration not a conflict yes you are problem solving, right?

Yes. And you are probably- They want you to be happy in your position. Right. And you are a great problem solver. It's what makes you good at your job, right? So when you're solving the problem and not being compensated fairly,

that's all a negotiation is. Yeah. So when, you know, if you're at 2,000 and your normal rate is 10, right? Don't ask for 10 because they'll give you five right you're gonna meet in the middle from like two to ten and somewhere there yeah right if you have this rate that's ten that's where you want to land you're gonna ask for like 12 to 15 yeah same thing with the salary right you have to go out and do some research you have to figure out what you

should be getting paid right if i'm a social media marketer and I'm supposed to be making 60K a year and they offer me 50 and I ask for 60, I'm at 55. So ask for more than you are expecting. When if you're, yeah, you're starting a job, when you research, how much is that market research of like average salary accurate? Great question. I talk about this in my book. A lot of people just like research on Glassdoor and they're like, cool, I'm done. No, that's like your first place to look to get really good information. This is where the talking to people has to come in, right? The amount of conversations I have with other content creators, I literally had a post on TikTok go viral because I was literally like, here's what I charge. Here's what I charge for an Instagram post. Here's what I charge for TikTok.

Because no one talks about it. No, because no one talks about it. Here's what exclusivity costs. Here's what you should be charging for. I've definitely lost deals before because at the last second they go oh actually someone's down to do it for free and i remember don't fucking do that i remember it was actually okay this is crazy i've never talked about it i got offered a super bowl commercial to be on a super bowl commercial and they weren't gonna pay me that much they were you know this is where i'm like i'll work no no they were gonna pay they were gonna pay like 30k or something for a super bowl commercial which is

like not a lot yeah it sounds like a lot but it's not a lot but it's for a super bowl commercial people are getting paid millions of dollars oh yeah it's not a lot and i already like whatever so i was like this is the great thing we're gonna have to talk about this off my i basically was like i told my team i was like Like, I'm fine with 30. Like, I just want to be on a Super Bowl commercial. That'd be so fucking cool. But they're also not just going to use it for the Super Bowl. They're going to use it in, what, perpetuity.

Basically, my team was, like, not happy with the 30 for a Super Bowl commercial and for the extent of it. Also, it was like, yeah, there were complications. But basically, I, like, had to, like, cancel something. And I was just waiting. And they're like, we're just negotiating. We're negotiating. And then, like, at the end of the weekend the weekend next Monday they just call me and they go they're just getting like an actress to do it for free actually and I remember being like I'll do it for free and they're like we will not like sacrifice you because like if you want to work

this brand in the future you've lost all like credibility and like that's so fucked it was so fucked up and I was so upset and then i watched the commercial and like the girl was great in it but i remember being like they went for like not a name kind of thing but sometimes what i've learned instead of a scarcity mindset when things fall through it means that other doors are going to open yeah but like which is hard to say to somebody who's like i just need to fucking pay my bills. And like, I get it. Like, I get it. There's a balance there, too.

Like, there are plenty of things that like I didn't get monetary compensation for. Yeah. But there were other things I got. Oh, for sure. Well, also, when I was starting off, I remember just being so abused financially. Like, literally, it works. But in my head, new big picture big picture I was like these are the skills I need for the next thing but it's like that's also privilege for me to be able to be like I

can live with my parents and like get this done because I live in New York City a lot of people don't have like a house in New York City yeah that they could work from and go back and forth even though my parents wanted to come because I was there too long but but what's also interesting to me is that once you agree to a low salary, it's so much harder to get the raises because you can't then be like, OK, now I want twice as much. That's what the other thing that people don't understand is like, yes, five thousand dollars extra is dope right now. But you know what happens? Then your next salary, you're asking for more money. Right. Then your next salary, you're asking for more money, right? Versus if you don't ask for money, then, you know, your second job, you're working the salary that you could have gotten had you negotiated, right? So I think a lot of people.

A million dollars women lose by not negotiating over the course of their life. A million dollars. That's not with investing either. No, no. There's this quote. I think it was a psychologist. I quoted it in my book. They were like, are you willing to sacrifice a million dollars just to avoid an uncomfortable conversation? No.

Are you willing to sacrifice literally a million dollars just to avoid a couple uncomfortable conversations? And when you say uncomfortable conversations, just so people know, I remember having a panic attack, my heart beating, sweating. You know, you're 24 and you know you have to ask this man something that's going to— Yeah, 23. I remember I had to, like, practice. Like, I remember sending the email. I was like—it was horrible. I just found my notes that I made for the first time I negotiated.

It literally looks like, you know, when you get, like, a note card for your, like— It's a final, but, like, it's an open book final and you get one note card. That's what it looked like. It was a mess. It was like everything I had prepared. As someone who's failed at negotiating before, like I had a marketing job that was miserable and I hated, but I was like, I was doing so much work for this company. Like it wasn't marketing. Like I was doing customer service. It was a four person. I was doing everything. And I remember finally being like, no, he sent me an email at the end of the year and was like you're not getting a raise and I remember that being a sign being and I was getting paid 45k

and I remember that being a sign being like this is not the right place for me and I remember I quit and he he made some joke he was like you should have threatened to use your like health insurance against whatever like you know like say that you have threatened to use your health insurance against whatever. Like, you know, like say that you wanted me to pay your health insurance and take that. I don't know what he said. He's like, here are my red flags. No. On your way out. So then I was like, OK, thank you.

So I kind of quit because I was like, there's no future in this company. And then I ended up becoming an entrepreneur and doing my own thing, which is, I mean, a whole nother. It's difficult, obviously, but a whole nother situation. whole nother it's difficult obviously but a whole nother situation i just know that if i'm talking to like my employees i know fight for like the money but then the way you get the real raise is by going to another job job hopping is this and the 80s they did not they wanted corporate ladder we had a whole episode on this with uh my friend who's another finance creator she has job hopped like every year and a half two two years and literally like 20, 30, 40 percent increases every fucking time. Because I can't get 80 from you and then the next year be like, I want 120. You'd be like,

you're fucking crazy. Right. But I can get 80 from you and then go to another company and say, I get paid 100. I want 120. You have more negotiating power when you first start a job than you will ever have during your entire time there. Yeah, because once you start, isn't it just like increments of like 10K basically? Yeah. Well, and the thing is, too, is it's one of those things where it's just like it's, oh, we want you. We got you. And then people think, oh, loyalty pays.

Right? That's another thing, especially women, is it's like I will do my job and I'll show up up and I'll be a really good employee and I won't raise my hand and I won't do anything. But they'll see me. They'll see me and loyalty will be rewarded. My best friend was at a company for eight years. I can't even tell you how much shit went down at this company. And literally was like, they were asking her to come to work and she's like i can do my job remotely what are you doing yeah and they were like sorry and so

basically she was forced to quit she quit in her two weeks as her you know going through everything they opened her job with a better title and 20k more how does that even make sense it doesn't it doesn't i had a job that i was working like full weekends because i loved it so much and it was like i it was i started this like department basically doing video and then they basically i was like they couldn't give me a raise so i was like can i have a title change and they're like you don't run this and i was like what thank you that's a great thing though though. I talk about negotiating for when salary doesn't happen.

Like, what are the things you can't negotiate? Because at least I can tell my next person, like, I was this. Look at you! I mean, it didn't, they basically,

well, then I realized that they were like, you're not anyone's boss here. You're not this. And I was like, because sometimes the bosses are so disconnected from what's happening

day to day in your department. And the ego of titles. And then I realized, I was like, wait. If I if i'm like i was at this company where i was i had sales experience so i was not only getting on the phone with brands to sell brands for them of what video is going to make for them yeah cast the video make the video act in the video edit the video and my salary was less was half and one of these videos was worth and i was doing like 40 of them and that's why i'm where i am now because i go wait i could have done that for

myself yep and you fucking did and i did but and to them it's like right okay you don't think i'm doing this well now i'm just gonna put the money in my own pocket but when you're 25 and 26 you're scared i thought i was gonna do that job my whole life i'm like this is my favorite job i've ever had yeah and then you become disillusioned and then you realize like oh i'm there see but i'm like jaded where like i can never work for the man the man is looking more and more appealing to me i'm gonna be honest with you it's very interesting you know i won't go back but like why entrepreneurship's fucking hard you you all are vicious in the comments people are so mean oh well that's that's being a public profile

yeah and it's also just like well you know what i have a team i am so you need to be out of the comments oh yeah that's easier said than done i'm trying to be yeah i also then feel bad that somebody else has to read them it is one of of those things, though, where I'm just like, it would be really, really nice to shut my laptop at 5, in theory, on a Friday and not have to worry about work again until Monday. Oh, yeah. I can't remember. I, like, work on weekends because I'm a stand-up. But literally, like, the 20 thoughts before I fall asleep at night are all about the business. So some people say that a salary is more addicting

than a heroin addiction that a monthly salary wow is more for me it's not money we're making great money like that's not the money it's the lifestyle it's just the the feeling all the time of just like it's also it's my ambition this is a conversation that i'll have with my therapist but like no this is good it's about like my ambition is the reason i am where i am like i i want you know books and a tv deal and i want to sell out stadiums on a speaking tour and i want everybody to know my name and then there's a part of me that's like i want complete anonymity you want to be on a farm literally i want a cabin i want a cabin in wyoming's great shirt jackson like literally i want no one to know my name i like adopt dogs i think you get successful enough that you can do

that in peace well the goal is in the meantime to have something in the middle because i know that like all of anonymity will not make me happy and all of like public person will also not make me happy so i'm trying to find the medium but my ambition in way is like a fucking drug like i do feel like sometimes i overdose for sure to the point where i'm just working so hard and i'm like oh well i need to get this thing and i need to oh i'm on this platform your life are suffering even though you're like i'm making money i'm totally i'm doing all the checking all the corporate boxes or whatever i want to do but i would say part of once you get some success, and if you're in the public eye,

like part of the job is handling the hate. Yeah. And like I was in a unique place where I have a husband who's very like good with that stuff where he basically was like, you're not allowed to read the comments. And I'm like, it's a car crash. I want to, because it's a dopamine hit.

It's like emotional cutting, they call it. Once you learn that you don't have to read the comments. And I'm like, it's a car crash. Because it's a dopamine hit. It's like emotional cutting, they call it. Once you learn that you don't have to read it is another world that you get to. Because I haven't Googled myself in two years. And I'm not particularly like, oh, I Google myself every day. No, you can't. It's not even about, it's like,

did somebody write an article about me that we need to reshare on social media? Yeah. Like, it's that. Yeah, but it's almost like now that you have people to do that, you detach yourself. Because the second reading stuff about yourself or seeing stuff about yourself affects your creativity, they win. The second you're like, I don't want to say that, I don't want to do this, because then you're not being yourself. And then you're a shell of yourself, and then you hate yourself.

That's been me for the past couple months. i'm not it's you're right you will see stuff accidentally it's really helpful but i don't mean to be a bitch but i'm telling you stop nope you have to don't do that don't do that shit don't no you're not being a bitch you are you are giving me really good advice thank well in what way is that i wish people had told me that i didn't have to read the comments. Part of me, I was a social media manager and also part of TikTok, right, is responding to comments. Yeah. And so it's like part of that culture of like, I don't see the great things like people literally every five minutes being like, I paid off my student loans because of you. Yes. I like, I, you know, we miss part of that too.

I just have to, I haven't found the balance of it yet. Yeah. But it's when it first happens and you're not burned too much, you're like, this is fine. We're playing in the water. We're having fun. It's almost like you have to get really burned to be like, I can't go to that place. And I got really burned recently. Yeah. Yeah. It's literally just like, it's a very pattern that everyone does. Yeah. Question to you about back to finances. Sure. If if why because you'll say stuff about investing you'll be like if you invest this much money to that why aren't people teaching us this in high school oh how much time do you have okay because i can retain information i would like to know in high school that if you take your money and put it in this, it will do this. Okay. Let me talk about the pros and cons of that. So pros is there's education

happening, right? In a way that I think would be really, really helpful. There are some states, I have a friend of mine who's the budgetista and she's a fellow finance expert and she got a law passed, I believe in all of New Jersey that requires financial education, which is so fucking cool. So yes, learning education, in all of New Jersey that requires financial education, which is so fucking cool. So, yes, learning, education, openness, that's great. The con, though, one, where's the funding going to come from? What curriculum is going to be taught? Dave Ramsey curriculum better not be fucking taught in schools.

It's already taught. That's the default curriculum. He's your arch nemesis. I hate him. Yeah, I know. He is a evangelical, judgmental Walmart Santa. And I do not like him. Yeah. And there's many problematic things about his work. But like that is the default curriculum for many, many places. So it's kind of like sex ed. You're so right. It's like, I went to Catholic school. My sex ed was abstinence only education. Yeah. Right? And I'm not sure how helpful that actually was.

It potentially is hurtful. Right. So when we do think about personal finance, like, we call it the fallacy of financial literacy. Like, people think, like, oh, we just need to talk about money more in schools. But the other con is, like, if you put a pre-calculus test in front of me right now, I couldn't do it. I have no idea. Yeah. You learn what you need to learn in high school for the test,

and then you dump it. You're right. You dump it. You're right. Now, there's certain classes or certain teachers, right, that are super powerful and effective and that you remember. But it's really hard. I literally just spoke at a school, and that was the most—I've spoken in front of, like, thousands of people. That was the most terrifying. It was 12, like, 17-year-olds. And that was the most nervous I was 12 like 17 year olds and that that was the most nervous i've been in years no so scary but literally i'm like i'm like if i gave you a hundred dollars right now what would you do with it and they're all like spend it i'm like yeah obviously like obviously and that might be pretty accurate if you have somebody in

their 20s too but it's like you you're not making a salary yet yeah you don't fucking give a shit what a roth ira is yeah like you don't care yeah now i think 17 year olds do need to understand the student loan process yeah and paying for college because if we're asking 17 year olds to sign on a dotted line what is the john mulaney bid 120 000 you have the audacity yeah like if we're asking them to do that they need to fully understand that decision but it's just it's one of those things that is floated as the answer to general systemic oppression right racism ableism sexism homophobia you know trillion dollar student debt crisis like keeps people like down those are the things that are actually affecting people on a daily basis like

lack of minimum wage increases housing at an all-time high lack of paid family leave lack of fucking abortion access like those are the things financially that affect people and yes financial education i think is part of that equation but it's way smaller than everybody thinks it is i also think about just the concept of, as a New Yorker, there's the concept of the finance bro. And there's just hordes of them. Chad. There's tons of them.

It's like, these guys get out of college. Yeah, like, you know, their dad's in finance. They want to be in finance. And I know there's a lot of amazing women that are going into it too. But like, if you think about the amount of men who are finance bros and then are making, I guess, these decisions about money. Can I talk about that for a second? Yeah.

You don't need a finance Chad to save you. You do not need a finance Chad to save you. We have been fed this lie that investing is difficult. I'm like, literally, I'm like, you have been fed a lie that the stock market is complicated. It is not fucking complicated. Truly, it's not. You've been fed this one to make sure that the chads still have jobs and to inflate their own ego because if they're like oh don't worry about stocks it's like it's it's really complicated don't you like i can i can

handle it for you yeah don't give your money to a man to manage ever yeah and if like you just need somebody to sit down with you and teach you this is why i do the work that i do is literally like i sit down with women and help them invest This is why I do the work that I do is literally like I sit down with women and help them invest themselves because you can and should do it because you're paying somebody else an exorbitant amount of fees. Again, typically a guy named Steve or Chad or Josh, and they are statistically underperforming in their investments compared to you doing it yourself. Women are better investors than men. Wow. Statistically. But women don't invest at the same rates men do. Yeah. And when they think, oh my God, it's so complicated. I need somebody else to do it. The only people to turn to,

again, statistically, are the 95% of financial professionals who are men. So I'm just like, you can manage your money yourself. You don't need a finance chad to save you. You just need somebody to guide you, whether that's me or somebody else. But, like, don't give your hard-earned money to somebody to take over your money just because you're like, I don't know what to do. It seems complicated. That is a lie you've been fed. And it goes into, like, that is amazing. Sorry, I'm, like, off my soapbox.

It drives me. I'm, like, just crushing a can. No, but I'm, like, I'm Mrs. Like, I mean, I actually was good at math and stuff. I wasn't, like, I was good at math, but I was never, I just didn't care about, like, learning about. Sure. It's like why some funny women are like, but I don't care to get into stand up and have

to deal with all that bullshit. Right. Well, and it's the other thing is like people think, oh, if I'm not good with math, I'm not good with money. And that's a whole other thing about how we raise girls. We tell them you're good with English. You're good with writing. You're not good at math. Yeah. And I will also say i'm a theater major guys i studied

theater in college amazing and i'm a finance expert like numbers are my thing really either it's not about numbers when it comes to money it's about your life like that sounds so like woo-woo but like think about any goal you want to achieve, right? You have to picture how your life is different once you've achieved that goal. It's not about numbers in a spreadsheet. It's about like, what does it feel like to wake up every morning and know that you don't owe anybody any money?

What does it feel like to know that 65-year-old grandma you is drinking Sauvblanc with lunch and flirting with her younger Pilates instructor named Luca because she has the money to do that. That's my real life retirement plan. Like that is the feeling I want for every fucking woman. What is the feeling of waking up in the morning and being like, I get to choose what I do today. Or if I want to leave this relationship, I can. Like that is the feeling I want. And that's what money can buy you. Right. And it's not about math. It's

about like your emotions. It's about how you feel. It's about how you view money, buy you right and it's not about math it's about like your emotions it's about how you feel it's about how you view money how you view people with money how you view the pursuit of money like that is what it's about it's not about how good you are at excel one final question do i look at any of my questions for you i've memorized some of them when i talk to you wait can i ask you one more yes talk to me let's say we've made some money yeah what is the first thing you do with it great question have a whole chapter in my book about this first thing emergency fund three months of living expenses in a high yield savings account tattoo hysa on my. I talk about them so much. They're everyday savings accounts, except they're going to offer you more in interest.

We have the one we recommend on our website, but literally it's just like making sure that you have money in the bank should something happen. The reason we do that first before paying off any debt is because, again, we want something in the bank. We don't want to go into debt trying to pay for an emergency. And we want the ability to say fuck off if we don't want a situation anymore. There's so much power and also like stability and knowing like my head hits the pillow, something happens tomorrow, I'm fine, at least for a period of time. So emergency fund is number one priority. Second priority is starting to pay off credit card debt because it's really expensive. It's over 15% in interest, typically somewhere

in the 20s. And again, it doesn't sound like a lot until you're in it and you're like, holy shit. I have a lot of resources around paying off debt. We have a whole chapter on paying off debt in the book too. But the biggest thing is we know from statistics that women get into debt more frequently because they do not understand how a loan works. And that's not because they're stupid, but because nobody sat down and explained it to them. So debt, very simply put, there's principle and interest. Principle is like the original amount of money you took out, right? So if you put $10,000 in a credit card, that is the principle. The interest is like the deal with Ursula, right? It's like, what are you kidding? What are you having to pay in exchange for that? And then the interest compounds. So when you don't

pay off your full balance, right, of student loans or whatever, your interest typically compounds, which means that's why debt feels like you're drowning because every time you try to get ahead, right, it's like, oh, I have to keep paying interest and paying interest and paying interest. So credit cards. Then number three, so you did your emergency fund, you got your credit card debt paid off, you're going to start investing for retirement. You're going to start opening something like a Roth IRA, which is an individual retirement account, or working with your 401k if you're a corporate girly, and balancing paying off your lower interest debt. Things like your student loans, your car loan, your mortgage,

things like that. And then while you're doing that, start saving for what I call like the big life stuff. So getting married, buying a house, getting a new car, starting a business, retiring early. And that's kind of the order of operations. So we start with like emergency fund. The information you just dropped was quality. I appreciate it. Top notch. I appreciate it.

I love that. Yeah, it's that is the one I say this all the time is like personal finance is personal. Like everybody has a different like personal finance experience everybody's money is different everybody's goals are different however that order of operations is the order of operations for anybody listening because it like it has to be done in that order and there's so many people who are so kind and they message me and they're like but I have 120,000 student loans and I'm like I get it feels overwhelming but I need you to have an emergency fund first for many, many reasons.

I need you to get the quicker win of like, cool, I have money in the bank should something happen. And then that feeling of momentum will just snowball and you'll just keep going. Wow. Wow. That's fucking incredible. Hey, thanks.

I love what I do. Wait, can I ask you one more question yes yes yes what do you think about the like abundance theory with money like the more you spend the more you can make like the kind of woo-woo concept i am more woo-woo than i used to be i worked with an energy coach a couple years ago for the first time and i was like this is good for me yeah i was like this is good for me. Yeah. I was like, this is good for me because I feel weird about it. I just hear a lot of things with money where they talk about money manifestation and abundance theory and that kind of shit. There was a post that I saw. I will not name the publication, but I called them out so hard.

They had one of these money experts who was not like myself and others and was an actual money expert. They were like, yeah, bring abundance into your life and they literally the advice they gave was like carry $200 of cash with you at all times for like normal purchases and they're like and to attract abundance keep $300 in a separate pocket and I was like okay we'll lose that immediately or you'll get mugged. Like, you're telling women, walk around with... Also, who has cash on them? I literally never carry cash. $500. And $300 you're never going to touch. So the privilege of that, of just you can have $300.

Two, it's fucking stupid. Put that in a savings account and earn money on it or invest it or do something. And three, you're either going to lose it, yeah, or you're going to get your purse taken. That makes no fucking sense. No, you're going to have a knife to your fucking throat. Like, that's just not smart. So there's a line of crossing woo-woo too much in terms of the money stuff. And it's also, this might be controversial.

I think it's, that is the kind of finance that we're okay with women talking about. Ooh, yeah. No, I see that for sure. That we're okay with, money and man oh it's just yeah like abundant i do believe in abundance versus scarcity 100 money masturbation manifestation i want to be a millionaire no but like it's it's i think that that is what we are socially comfortable both as women and viewing other women doing doing the like chance and the mantras and like if that works for you great but if it is not coupled with actual saving and investing in goal

setting it doesn't fucking matter and i also think people like rihanna being a billionaire we need to see that in the in the public in the media because growing up when you only see old white men having money right that does something to your brain right so it's like having more women like you being like yeah i have money and this is how i got it yep and let's talk about it again if you take anything away from like my work and this is why i love talking to folks like you from all walks of life right like my podcast my podcast is called Financial Feminist. And the amount of times I've pitched people to be on the show and they're like, well, I'm not finance experts. And I'm like, no, everything is about money. You want to talk

about comedy, right? It's about money. It's about like, how much are you making compared to everybody else? How do I make a living out of this? How do I navigate? Like, and really it's feminist. Like money is inherently feminist, right? If we look at it from that lens. You want money, like, money gets you, again, everything. So it's, if you are not embracing it as a tool, that's all it is. It's a tool. It's a tool for you to build the life that you want. It's not, it shouldn't be the reason you can't have things.

It should be the reason you pursue it instead. And if money is controlling you rather than you controlling it, we need to flip that relationship. And we need to have so many conversations and we need to be as transparent as we can, especially if you're a member of a marginalized group. Because representation matters. But truly, it's also about like, I want to share hard numbers so that you can walk in and also get paid what you're worth because I paved the way for you or I was shepherding you into that conversation. Yes, and if you're a business owner, how dare you pay a man a certain number and have a woman doing the same job and because she didn't ask for it, pay her. I couldn't sleep at night. Yeah. Or a black person. Right. Or a disabled person.

Disabled person. Right, right, right. It's like, it grinds my gears. So it's from all angles, people need to fucking get it together. And we also need to support policies that protect people. Yeah. Yeah. Because I say this in my book, 20% of the personal finance equation is your own choices.

Yet that's all that gets talked about, right? If you're not rich, you're not working hard enough. And it's like, no, that's not it. No. Yes. Get your budgeting together. Get your Roth IRA together. Control the things you can control and then vote and protest and support legislation that has much more of the 80% that's going on with your money versus the 20% you can control. I have one final question. For people who are, I use in quotes, cheap, frugal. I'm a little, yeah.

Because I'm a little cheap and frugal. My friend once told me, she was like, if you hold too tight to money, it won't expand. You have to be free with it. That's another woo-woo thing that I was talking to my friend about. That one I think has more weight. Do you have any advice for cheap people? Well, there's a difference, right? like there's the i'm living paycheck to paycheck

but you still have a netflix account yeah right there's some people who are like oh i'm living paycheck to paycheck and that's just because either they're like so good with their money that they put everything in savings like there's some people who say i'm living paycheck to paycheck but it's because all the money goes in savings or because they're like spending money on things that they don't like yeah and so they're like i'm living paycheck to paycheck you can fix that and then there's the people who are honest to god living paycheck to paycheck where i actually don't have an answer for you that sucks but that's where the systemic change has to happen i my default is like cheap and frugal and i actually just recorded an episode of my show about all of the times i regret that because

oh i love that i literally this happened last month. I was like flying. I did an event in Chicago. I spoke at a conference and then we had a week off. We do like quarterly weeks off at my company. And I was like, oh, I'll go to Miami. I'd never been in Miami. And I had booked this Airbnb that was clean and fine and be like, whatever. You could walk to the beach, but it was 20 minutes away, which fine. But I got there and that was not the experience I wanted. This was my week off after like and for like a bunch of book promotion more a month you could have had such a better experience that yeah i could see the beach from this side but if i turn this way fucking walmart down below and i was like this was not the vibe i wanted and if yeah it wasn't like i was like it wasn't four seasons for sure but they could be tricky because from the

photos you're like this is perfect sometimes I say truly it was not it was you know what you're paying for it was it wasn't even like the Airbnb but it was bad it was like I cheaped out yeah and got there and was like I had this expectation of what my experience was gonna be yeah and then I was so angry at myself I think it's prioritizing like what actually will fulfill you and that you want to invest in versus you're like, I don't need. And people are very different with like, some people are like, I need to fly first class to enjoy. But again, I talk about this too, is it's like, you don't have to stop spending money, but I need you to stop spending money on shit you don't care about. So you can spend money on the shit you do. But in terms of cheap or frugal, I would say that some of that is actually really helpful as part of why maybe you can save and you feel financially stable. But there is

an element of trauma with that sometimes. Or self-hate. Right. Where it's just, we see this a lot with first gen or women of color is it's like, I don't know when my next paycheck's coming. So I'm going to save everything and I'm going to deprive myself of everything joyful. And like, that isn't it. Like we have to, again, find like, how do I save for future me? How do I save for my goals and also still travel and still go out to eat and still have what we want now? So I would say some frugality I think is really good, but there was this whole movement that was like, it's called the FIRE movement. And it's been commandeered now by women of people of color, which is great. But the early days of fire were these tech bros making

$150,000. But they would be like, I don't use toilet paper. And like, that's how I save money. Oh, and I think I've heard this before. And I was just like, they're like, I bike to work. And I'm like, cool. You want me to bike at 5 p.m. where it gets dark? I love those memes too that are like, I stopped buying chai lattes and now I own a mansion. Right, right, right. And that's, again, we could talk about hours, but that's another narrative we're fed is, again, the frivolous spending. It's like the lattes.

And I'm like, I'm sorry. I live in Seattle. You live in New York. Good luck buying anything. Also, if your latte brings you joy in the morning, you drink that fucking latte. Drink that fucking latte. Life is so goddamn hard. If that is the thing that keeps you going, great. It's also

$6. If we want to do the math, 6 times $3.65. That is not a down payment on a house in any major U.S. city. Not even fucking close. Just buy your latte. Tori, thank you so much for coming on Burning in Hell. And thank you for having me on Financial Feminist.

I'm sorry that I spent the whole time asking you questions. No, it's great. I hope my audience is like, okay, yes. I hope people are okay with just what it ended up being. I want to ask you questions. I don't want you to feel like I'm not fascinated by your life. No, I'm going to go on your pod in the future. Okay, great.

I will. Great. And I'll talk at you. Okay, great. I love that. I don't want you to feel like I'm not fascinated by your life. No, I'm going to go on your pod in the future. Okay, great. I will. Great. And I'll talk at you. Okay, great. I love that. I'll force you to hear my stories. But no, you're just so fascinating and amazing to talk to you.

Where can people follow you, buy your book, see you? Financial Feminist is the podcast and the book. It's a New York Times bestseller. Congrats. Which I love saying. I will never stop saying it.

I work so fucking hard. Available wherever books are sold and then I'm at her first 100k on all the socials and I'll have you plug over 100k oh yes I'm I have a podcast called burning hell giggly squad it's more pop culture come to my stand-up shows hannahburn.com and check me out I'm coming to Seattle check me out on t and Instagrams at HannahBurner. Amazing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.

Bye. Yay! Thank you again to Hannah for joining us and also for having me on your show. Again, we will have you back. I can't wait to ask you more questions. And she's coming on. She's going on tour. And we talked about her coming to Seattle, and I'm excited to hopefully see her if I'm in town.

I want to plug Burning in Hell because this episode's also getting released over there. Please go listen to Hannah's show Burning in Hell and go support her work by maybe seeing her on tour, subscribing and following her and doing all of that stuff. Thank you as always for being here. Thank you for showing up, for supporting our show, for subscribing and reviewing the episode. For August, we got a bunch of great episodes lined up. We are talking about things like sex works, sobriety, work-life balance. Make sure you subscribe so you don't miss a thing. We are giving you the hits. We're playing the hits through the end of the summer. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being Financial Feminist. And I hope you have a great day.

I'll talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Khalil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda LeFue, Masha Bakhmutyeva, Kaylin Sprinkle, Samaya Mullakario, and Harvey Carlson. Research by Arielle Johnson, audio engineering by Austin Fields, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.