Financial Feminist - 120. Building A Sustainable Online Business (Tori's Interview on Independent Business Podcast)

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

Have you ever wondered, “How do you build an email list? How do you go viral on Instagram or TikTok? How do you build followers? How do you actually grow and scale a business?” Well, tune in to hear the answers to those questions and more as host Tori Dunlap sits down with Natalie Franke, author, entrepreneur, community builder, and Chief Evangelist at HoneyBook. In this special crossover episode, Tori and Natalie chat about how to build a mission-focused business, challenge societal narratives about money, and differentiate yourself in the crowded business landscape. Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/start-here-financial-feminist-podcast  Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, financial feminists. Welcome back to the show. We have an exciting episode today. We have a fun little crossover episode where I am actually the guest. You might remember Natalie Frank, who was one of our guests on one of y'all's favorite episodes about this feeling of loneliness, as well as her building community. If you haven't listened to that episode, head on over to that one. We'll link it in the show notes. But today, we are releasing an episode from when I was on Natalie's show that she hosts called the Independent Business Podcast. I talk about everything that you've ever wondered about how I built and how our team built a multi-million dollar business from basically scratch, from like $20. No funding, no paid ads, no outside investment. How we took this blog started started in 2016, and grew it to 4 million

followers, a multi-million dollar business, a New York Times bestselling book, a number one business podcast, all of that. How we've built an audience from scratch using all of these marketing strategies and techniques. We're getting into the weeds today. If you've ever wanted to build a business, this is a really important episode for you. So if you've ever wondered, Tori, how do you build an email list? Tori, how do you go viral on Instagram or TikTok? How do you build followers? How do you actually grow and scale a business? We're talking about all of that today. The Independent Business Podcast is on a mission to uncover the science of self-made success. Join Natalie Frank as she interviews some of the most brilliant minds in business, digging deep into the details and uncovering strategies that turned entrepreneurial hopes into tales

of triumph. And the Independent Business Podcast is powered by HoneyBook. So without further ado, enjoy this episode. And now a word from our sponsors. Crypto is like the financial system, but different. It doesn't care where you come from, what you look like, your credit score, or your outrageous food delivery habits. Crypto is finance for everyone, everywhere, all the time.

Kraken, see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. Kraken's registration details at kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dash disclaimer. Today on the podcast, we are talking to Tori Dunlap. She is a financial expert, the New York Times bestselling author of Financial Feminist, and an incredible creator on platforms like TikTok and Instagram. In this

interview, we talk about how she turned a single TikTok video into over 100,000 email subscribers, what the systems look like behind the curtain behind her business, and some money myths that you might be telling yourself that we need to debunk immediately. This episode is packed with information that frankly, you need to know because so much of the time we see that top of the iceberg, as I say, in our conversation and not what lies beneath. Tori shares it all. And I can't wait for you to dig in and learn a little bit more about everything that she has built on her first 100K. Hey, everyone. This is your host, Natalie Frank, and you're listening to the Independent Business Podcast.

More people than ever are working for themselves and building profitable businesses in the process. So on this show, I sit down with some of the most influential authors, entrepreneurs, and creators to break down the science of self-made success so that you can achieve it too. Tori, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Thank you so much, Natalie, for having me. I'm so excited to see you. Well, I feel like I see you every day because you're on my FYP every time I open TikTok and every time I'm hitting that like button as fast as I can. I absolutely love it. And when we were chatting a little bit before jumping on the recording, I said, one of the things I love about you is that you, yes, you've built a massive online community. You have over 2 million followers on TikTok. You have such an incredible presence on Instagram, among other places. And yet, I know, having watched even from a distance and getting to know you, especially over the past couple of weeks and months, it's like an iceberg, right? What people see is just the 20% at the top of the water,

that you have cultivated that community by providing so much value behind the scenes. And so my hope is in this podcast, I'd love to peel back the curtain a little bit. I would love to kind of peel back the curtain into what does that really look like to build a business that, again, business owners fall into this trap of thinking, if I just build a following, I'm going to have a successful business. And I say trap because I do. I think it's a myth. But to actually build a strong business, to build funnels that provide value, to build systems that enable you to really serve that community well, can we peel back the curtain a little bit? What does that really look like for you?

And what has it been like truly exploding and growing your business on TikTok? Yeah. You just summed up entrepreneurship in the perfect metaphor, which is an iceberg. Like, I think there's so much that happens behind the scenes that no one knows, and especially not if you're just like a general follower of somebody that you have any idea what's happening. And like how much goes into just like the naming of a podcast episode or like the hook on a like one video that you make and then oh spoiler alert you're making three videos a day so yeah there's there's so much work that happens I I think one of the myths that new especially new business owners fall into my products. Like I can create a, you know, community and that word gets thrown around a lot, but like I can create a community. I can grow my following by selling

my products. And I would say 99 times out of a hundred, that's not true. My biggest business ethos is that you need to serve before you sell. And that service means providing value to people in order to build a community, but also in order to build trust and credibility and a relationship with somebody. And then when they feel like, oh, this person's credible, this person's offering me value, I feel like I can trust them, then they will buy from you. But people do it in the reverse order. They're like, okay, I'll just create a product and then I'll sell the product and then people will follow me because they like the product. And like, maybe Nike can do that. But like Nike already has like,

you know, the brand and the trust behind the brand. And Nike's been at this for a really long time. And I think that's the other myth in addition is that everybody looks like an overnight success because you discovered them last night. And the amount of people who are so kind and they'll follow me and they'll be like, oh, I've never heard of you. Like, where have you been? And oh, you've been blowing up. And I'm like, yes, but I've been at this for like seven years. Like we started on TikTok in mid 2020. And a lot of people, especially since TikTok is our biggest platform, people are like, oh, so you just started on TikTok. And I was like, no, I had a business for four years before we blew up on TikTok. And that meant I knew how to structure

a video. That meant I knew how to serve people. That meant I knew what my business ethos was, what our secret sauce was, and how to present that. So I think that is the other misconception is it's like somebody discovers somebody and they're like, oh, they, you know, they must have just blown up. And I'm like, no, like, typically, we've been at this for years, cultivating our brand, cultivating our voice, cultivating why we are different, like our value proposition versus somebody else. So I think that those are a couple of the things that I wish people talked about more. I know we'll get into this. But the

last thing that I think is so tantalizingly sexy is virality. And people think, oh, I want my post to go viral, right? I want to go viral on TikTok. I want to go viral on this platform, right? And virality is great. It's happened to me countless times. However, virality with no systems in place to take advantage of that virality is a huge wasted opportunity. Virality is not the thing you should be chasing. Virality is the thing that with systems builds your business. And you have to cultivate those systems and plan for something way before you've ever like created and posted the viral video. And I know we're going to talk about that. So don't chase virality just for virality sake, like it's fun to go viral and to like, see all the notifications come in and to get press and all of those things. But that will fade probably in days,

maybe even hours. So you need to take advantage of that virality. And that's in the systems that you're quietly building in the iceberg right down below the water that nobody sees. Yes. I couldn't agree more. I think there's so much to be said for the sexy parts of business, right? Like what we see and we think, oh, if I just have a viral TikTok, I'll be successful. I'll sell books or I'll sell, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything, 100%. But I think there's so much that goes into it even around, yes, the systems and why are you going viral in the first place? Like I've had videos pop off that didn't actually move the needle at all because they weren't about something that my core audience really cares

about. They popped off because I was talking about Paw Patrol. So like, yay. All the toddler moms like myself loved that video. Millions of views. But how many of them realistically run independent businesses? Right. Maybe not so many. So I think that that's also something to take into account. I think it can be alluring and really exciting. Yay. But you're 100% hitting the nail on the head here. If you don't have the systems, you're basically just letting that virality go to waste entirely and losing the true business opportunity that exists. So let's double click in and talk about those systems. I touched on early kind of in the onset of this interview that people

want to build a following. They want that following. But so many business owners that I've seen kind of stop there. They're basically renting land from TikTok and Instagram and all the platforms and not building anything that they actually own. And so they're leasing it. And then anytime an algorithm changes, we're beholden to that limitation on our reach or that shift rather than growing something that we own. And so I would love to know from you, what does that look like? Once someone does follow along, what's the next step for you once they discover you on social? What are those systems behind the curtain? Well, and before I even dive into that, I want to highlight the importance of what you just said, which if you have been following along a business or entrepreneurship

podcast, you've probably heard before, but maybe if you haven't, that's news to you. If you are trying to build a following on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, I don't know, Reddit, Twitter, all of these platforms are borrowed land and Elon Musk can buy them and tank the stock price tomorrow, right? The algorithm can change. You can get banned for no reason. I've had multiple friends get banned on TikTok for like stuff that makes no sense, like that didn't really violate like user terms.

And the thing about doing that, right, is yeah, you are building an audience that could hypothetically disappear tomorrow. Now, that doesn't mean don't do it. It just means you need to diversify where your audience is and how they interact with you. So again, this might be news to some people, this might be redundant. But a funnel is the thing that I'm always thinking about. And we call it the customer journey funnel, right? It's like, pretty obvious, but where are people moving? How are people discovering you first? And then how are people moving from point A to B to C to D, right? And various points in that are conversions. Conversions can be defined as simply like, they've clicked follow on an Instagram, or they've signed up for my email list. But they can also be they've bought a product or they have

renewed a subscription, right? That might be like number G or letter G on the funnel, right? So when I am thinking about creating content on TikTok, when I am thinking about creating content on Instagram, the primary use of that content is to see as many, to get into as many eyeballs as possible. But really the point now, because we do have a substantial following, is actually to get into as many eyeballs as possible. But really, the point now, because we do have a substantial following, is actually to get that following to give us their email. So if I can get them off of TikTok, and I can get them subscribed to our email list, I can control an email list, right? That is building on my own land. Because everybody's going to get an email, whether they click, right? That's a different metric, different conversation about how to create emails where people click.

But I'm getting them off of TikTok and onto land that we own and that we can control in a way that we can't with TikTok or Instagram. It's actually really funny. We were talking as a team about this. Literally, we've had just in the past week, like four people comment, oh my God, I had no idea you had a book. The book's been out for six months. I feel like all I have done is yell the word book really, really loudly. It's a New York Times bestseller, right? Like I feel like all I have talked about is the fact that I wrote a book. And yet because of the algorithm, there are still people who have no idea that I have written a book. They have no idea and are just discovering almost six months later that I wrote a book. So that's the idea,

is right? The algorithm is showing maybe 3% of people your posts. And we want to get them off the TikTok hamster wheel where there's just endless scrolling and into a place that you control. Now, how do we do that? I was talking to you before you kindly messaged me and you were like, hey, what do we want to talk about in this interview? And one of the things that I'm really proud of that, frankly, is still shocking to me when I think about it. Back in 2021, I created a video on TikTok that probably took me all in from filming to editing 10 minutes, 15 minutes, maybe. I was in like no makeup, a sweatshirt on the couch. The lighting was terrible. And I talked about how I was as a

26-year-old going to retire with over $6 million. That was the hook. That was the like, you know, I will retire with over $6 million and I'm only 26. Let's talk. That was the hook. And then I talked about like the common misconceptions of investing. Like you think you need a bunch of money. No, actually you need time, right? You need as much time as possible to get started.

Oh, you need to be rich. Nope. That's how you get rich is investing. And then I did a really, really incredible thing, if I do say so myself, in the caption, which is I wrote, take the free quiz linked in our bio for personalized resources. Now, we were talking about before, like, virality is great, but you have to plan for virality. About four months before that, my team and I had spent time building what we call a money personality quiz. It is a free lead gen on our website, right? It is six questions.

It's like, do you feel like your values align with your purchases? Do you wish you had a new job? Are you in your dream job? What is your number one stress about money right now? Is it, I just don't know where to start? Is it, I have debt? Is it, I just don't know where to start? Is it, I have debt? Is it, I want to start investing? And then in exchange for your money personality, we ask for your email. So we get you to subscribe to our email list and then we send you resources based

on your needs, right? It helps us serve you better, but also just from a business side, I've just gotten your email, right? And I can send you a funnel of things that I know you care about because you filled out a quiz for me, right? So I had spent with my team weeks building this. We have it in place. This video went viral, by the way, in 2021. This quiz still is working for us two years later. So I had built this quiz with my team a couple months prior. I had in the caption of this video said, take the quiz. It's free, linked in our bio. Video pops off.

We got probably three or four million views in a week, which is incredible. That's the virality part, right? That was sexy and exciting. We got a bunch of followers. We got a bunch of people commenting on the video and asking questions, right? We got people sharing the video. I had BuzzFeed reach out. I had CNBC reach out. I had CNN reach out. I had all of this press that happened from it. So the virality was amazing. But the really cool part is that that one video in one week got us 100,000 email subscribers. Like that's not a thing. Like I have a background in marketing. I could not

believe that number. It skyrocketed our website traffic. We were able to then... That's all organic. I did not pay a dime for that. Crazy. Now, I have not seen similar. I will say, this is a big asterisk. We have not had a video do similar numbers since then. That is still our most viral video. But again, two years later, we are still seeing the impact of that one video that one time. One, I've reshared that video. It's done similar and not as crazy numbers, but it's still done good numbers. We still have those email subscribers, right? We still have probably 80% of them. A good 20% may have unsubscribed at some point, but we have a good chunk of them who are still around two years later. We can continue to promote our podcast, my book, the product

offerings we have, our affiliate links, right? We can continue to drive people to the things that we're trying to promote because of one video that did well, but really the systems that supported that video. So when you're thinking about like, again, how do I grow a following? How do I make content that goes viral? That's a great question. But I need you to ask that question after you've built systems to support that virality. Because yes, a viral video that just got a ton of views and a ton of followers and got us a ton of press would have been a win. But it was like a quadruple win because we sent so many people to our website, sent so many people to convert to give us our email and for us to be able to serve them best. This message is so needed. This message is so

needed. I cannot tell you enough how often I get asked questions in regards to growing a following, showing up on video, creating a social media platform, which are great. They're great questions. I very rarely ever get asked about the most important part, which is what happens once someone comes across your brand? What happens? Natalie, it's not sexy. It's not exciting. Like we are literally, her first 100K is a team. We have a team of 12 people. And that's the thing a lot of people don't realize. They think it's just me, which is crazy. But we have like literally this time this year, we're recording this in June 2023. This is actually a time where we're doing so much internal building that no one will ever see until we launch it.

And unless you're watching really closely, you won't figure out what we're doing, right? Like you won't understand why we're doing what we're doing. So like we're building these funnels for every single paid product that start with a free webinar. The free webinar is, I run it live twice. People come in and they get value even if they never decide they want to purchase anything, right? So they have a good experience. We get their email regardless in order to have them sign up for the webinar. Then if they come into the webinar, at the end, we do a promotion and

a discount for one of our paid products that we're trying to drive people to. They either sign up or they don't. And if they don't, they go into a 30 day email funnel that tries to get them to subscribe. And then if they still don't after those 30 days, well, I have a book. And that book has pretty much anything you need to know about money on the 101 level. So if you're not willing to pay the $300 for the paid product, cool, we will downsell you the book that still puts money in our pocket and still makes an impact for people. And we are planning on doing that for the rest of the year, doing one webinar or one free workshop every single month. Now, we're using social media to drive people to that, right? We're using our Instagram and our TikTok and our existing email list to drive people to that. But we are spending

time, so much time, my email market are spending so much time building emails, right? We're spending so much time putting a landing page together. This isn't the non-sexy stuff that ultimately is the reason you're able to build a foundational sustainable business that isn't dependent on an algorithm or isn't dependent on one brand or one client or one partner. So it's the non-sexy stuff and it's paired with the sexy stuff, right? You get the exciting things like creating content that hopefully does well and does numbers and makes an impact for people, but you have to pair it with the stuff that like nobody wants to talk about because it's not sexy and fun. I love this so much. And I'll say too,

for any of the service-based business owners that are listening to this, I want you to know that this applies to you as well. You don't need to have a digital product or a book to have an email list. I think that's a huge myth that I also come across. You know, I've seen some really profound and innovative strategies being done. Like I'll use the wedding industry, for example. You know, if you think about client acquisition in the wedding industry, I've seen really cool things like photo booths where if you're at a wedding, attending a wedding, and you go into a digital photo booth, you enter your email.

And then you basically are opting in. And there's a little thing, oh, you opt in to get access to the gallery when it's done. And you get access to whatever other value, again, like Tori said, value first, like leading with value. What am I going to give you in exchange for this email? But you have to remember, if someone's attending a wedding, they're attending a lot of other weddings. And when someone that they know is getting married and they're like, hey, do you know anybody that does photography or do you know? They might even say, oh my gosh, you're getting married. My friend had this photo booth at their event that did slow

mo video of people. And now they just have to pop into their inbox and find you or even better, your top of mind because you're sending out different types of materials to them. So there's so much value in understanding the power of email marketing for service-based business owners too. I'm curious for you, Tori, though, how did you come up with the idea of a quiz as a lead capture option. And are there others that you've seen work well for your business or that you've explored? I stole it. I stole it. Tell me more. I will contextualize that. What is it? I think there's a book, right? Or something that's like the best artist steal or something like that. It's like steal like an artist. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

There it is. This is the thing. Oh gosh. I did a LinkedIn post about this a couple months ago. People who run successful businesses are giving you an MBA about how to run a business just by running their own business. If you watch people you admire, maybe I'm one of those people that you can learn from. You can watch what I do. Like, it's very clear what my strategies are, if you start looking. So when I started building a business, like four years ago, I started watching the people that were really smart. And that I saw who were converting people, people like who's now a friend, Jenna Kutcher, Ramit Sethi, like, these were people who were really, really smart email marketers. And then I thought, okay, well, I'm getting their emails. I get a lot of value from their emails. What happens? How did they get my email? And then what happened is I went to jettacutcher.com and she had this quiz. And I was

like, I took that quiz. That because I was interested to see what my personality was. And I basically did that is I contextualized it for personal finance and for the offering that we had. I had some friends who I work with who are business partners of mine build it. We worked as a team to like create the content, create the landing pages, and then we launched it. Like watch other people do the things that you want to do. Now that doesn't mean directly copy them, I'm not taking Ramit Sethi's copy and like directly implementing it here, right? But I am taking the systems and the things that are effective for them. And I'm like, oh, how can I duplicate their success for me? And that's what I did. And I've told both of them. I'm like, hi, we have a quiz. And we did

that because of you. And they're like, great. Yeah, it works. So like, it's not anything new or novel. I'm just watching other people do really cool things and going, okay, cool. How can I do that? Same thing with webinars. I've been in webinars. I've been in workshops. I watch the system that happens. I look at myself as the user. I'm like, okay, cool. If I want to attend this thing, I have to give them my email. Interesting. Why do they ask for my email? Oh, probably so that they can market to me later or give them my email. Interesting. Why do they ask for my email? Oh, probably so that they can market to me later or provide me more value. Okay, that's really interesting. Oh, when I'm in the webinar, and you know, the thing pops up on the side that offers, you know, a discount for a paid product, I can purchase that then. Oh, and I see that they're making, they're putting like a timestamp on it, or they're putting like a ticker

on it, and that this discount only lasts for a certain period of time. Oh, they're incentivizing me to get this discount. They're motivating me with this countdown clock. Right? Interesting. Oh, after the webinar is over, I got an email that like said, Hey, you were there. Great. Here's a reminder. And here's the link. And here's exactly where to go. I can watch people do this by just being a consumer. And especially when I was growing a business and didn't know what the hell I was doing, I was watching other people smarter than me and then figuring out how I could apply that for my own stuff. I say all the time, I would much rather work with someone, and I'll flip this and even say, the people who are successful are more likely to have a master's in Google than they are to have

a master's from Harvard. And what you're describing is why. Because it's the idea that if you are curious enough, you'll figure it out. If you're willing to watch how other people are doing something, if you're willing to do this work, because what I'm hearing, Tori, is that no one handed you, here's the roadmap to the success. You did the work of asking yourself questions and analyzing. I mean, that does take a lot of work, but in the pursuit of that, you basically are self, it's the self-taught level of marketing expertise that led you to then say, okay, I'm seeing this. This resonated with me. I'm going to iterate on that. I'm going to iterate on that for my business model and see if it works.

And then from there, take those learnings and improve it. And then now your team is doing your own rebuilding of certain systems. And it's that ability to ask hard questions, stay kind of with that lens, with that lens of learning and leaning in. Listen to the podcast, right? Like you being here is a part of that. And I think for service-based businesses, for anybody listening, think about the content that connects with you, right? Or think about, again, like for me, it was like, I took Jenna's quiz. Why did I take it? Oh, because it was motivating and it was pretty and it was exciting. And I was like, oh, what personality am I? And like, I trusted her enough to then actually give her my email when my quiz results were ready. Because that's the

other part, right? It's like, if I don't trust that person, if I don't connect with that person, if I don't understand how that person is actually going to serve me, then I'm going to complete the quiz, but I won't give my email because I don't care enough. Because I'm like, yeah, I don't really care. I don't want this person to have my email. But if you can figure out like, why as a user, did I like that photo? Did I interact with that content? Did I give that person my email? You can start to bridge how you can then do that for yourself and for your own business, right? And back to our original point, none of this works if they don't trust you.

None of this works if you're not providing value. None of this works if you're just trying to sell them, both because it's going to feel icky for you. It's going to feel icky to sell all the time. It's not going to feel good. At least it shouldn't feel good. And that's not how good business is done. That's not effective, right? So build the systems and also understand if you are not serving, if you are not bridging this relationship of trust, it's not going to actually matter. You can build the sexiest email funnel ever. But if people never actually give you their email because they don't trust you or they don't know what your business does or you don't have a clear value proposition, then it's not going to work. I love this so much. I was at a festival a couple of years ago. And I remember there was a photographer there who was walking around taking photographs of people at the event. And if you wanted a photo, you call him over and you come take a photo. And I was chatting with

him like, oh, how did you get this opportunity? How did you get hired to do this? And he said, oh, I volunteered. And I was like, oh, so you're working for free. And he corrected me and he says, oh, no, I'm not working for free. And he pulls out his phone and there was a QR code and he goes, I'm working for your email. I'll take a photo of you. You can have the photo. And here's the LP where I would just pop into my email address. Here's who I am. And as soon as the gallery is ready, you get access to it. And I wish I had had time to just ask this man so many questions. But sure enough, gallery comes into my inbox 48 hours later, there's the photo of me at the event. And immediately I'm like, oh my gosh, who is this person? So then I go to his Instagram and now I'm engaged. Now I'm like, this person just gave me

something for free. He just gave me something. He gave me a gift. And I bet that day he probably interacted with 100 plus, 200, 300 people and took an opportunity that was just sitting there and turned it into potential business. Now, I never personally booked him for anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if other people were like, oh, I met this photographer. The photo he got was incredible. You have to check out his work, so on and so forth. All of it to say, sometimes there are these opportunities where when we lead with that value and we're willing to think like our customer, like our client, and in the case of Jenna's quiz for you, you are her target. You're her target market. I'm her target market. She has always been someone that has been teaching others how to build businesses,

and she shared so much of her own journey. And so in your business, it's the same thing. Think of your client and ask yourself, what is the value that they want? What would get them to hand over their email? And you're going to provide value in the process. And I absolutely love that. I want to take a step. Oh my gosh, I could talk to you all day. I really could. I could talk to you all day. It's dangerous. It's dangerous.

I want to take a step into talking about some money myths if you're down with me to talk about money myths because let me tell you something. They are out there. They are out there. And I don't know if you have some money myths top of mind that you just want to debunk for us, but maybe we start there because I know I have some, but I want to hear if there are some from you. Business owners, listen up. Are you believing some of these money myths and can Tori debunk them for you on the Independent Business Podcast? So I spend the whole first chapter of my book

talking about the emotions of money and the psychology of money. And we actually spend the first part of that chapter talking about the myths you're believing. Almost every single chapter has like the myths you're believing about debt or the myths you're believing about investing. So just general money myths. Okay, first off, we've all heard the talking about money is taboo, right? I can't talk about money. It's impolite. It's not professional. This is a myth meant to keep you underpaid and overworked. not professional. This is a myth meant to keep you underpaid and overworked. It is a patriarchal myth meant to keep you broke. It's meant to keep you broke. Because if you don't know that Chad, who got hired two years after you is making 20% more than you because you're not talking about money. You don't know that, right? You don't know that your other friends are also in debt,

but you feel so isolated and lonely and ashamed. You don't know as a business owner that things are really hard and that it's really hard to figure out your profit and loss every month and to navigate that if you're not talking with other business owners. Like talking about money is one of the easiest things we can start to do. So that radically changes every part of our society. It not only, of course, decreases wage gaps and wealth gaps, but also just makes a more equitable world, like makes a more equitable, you know, entrepreneurial landscape, it makes a more equitable workplace, it makes our relationships better, it makes everything better. Money is the number one cause of stress in romantic relationships. Money is the number one cause of stress just in Americans in general. And we are more likely to talk about any other

uncomfortable topic, death, sex, politics, religion, before we'll talk about money. And so one of the easiest things you can do is start talking about money. Now, it doesn't have to be me going to Natalie and being like, exactly what did you make last year? Tell me. It can just be like, hey, I saw you're working with this one client and they reached out to me. And if you would be willing, I would love for you to share your numbers and we can compare. I literally got asked to speak at a conference. I was internet friends with the other person that was on the panel. I messaged him. I was like, hey, where are you getting paid if you don't mind me asking? He was like, I'm getting paid this. And I was like,

cool, I'm getting paid this. Great. We knew. And especially for me as a woman, I was like, I'm getting paid this. And I was like, cool, I'm getting paid this. Great. We knew, and especially for me as a woman, I was like, I want to know what that guy's getting paid. But I had a bigger following than he did. So I was able to get more money. But like, that's the kind of that's the kind of relationships you want to build, right? Me reaching out to a friend and being like, hey, I'm really stressed about my student loans. Can I just talk to you about it? Like, that's a conversation about money. So start talking about money. We'll talk about anything else before we'll talk about money. Start talking about money. It's a stupid narrative meant to keep you underpaid and overworked. Second money narrative or money myth is the frivolous spender is that the reason you can't build wealth is

because you frivolously spend. Okay. Frivolous dec decoded that word is extremely gendered frivolous spending yeah frivolous spending is the lattes or the manicures or the purses or the designer dresses it is not the nfl season tickets and the golf clubs right it is the, which is like innately feminine, and it's the Gucci purse, and it's the, the, you know, the shellac pedicure. It is not box seats at, you know, a Seahawk game. Like, that's, that's the interesting part is that we are shamed for our purchases, but uniquely as women, the things that are called frivol women, the things that are called frivolous are the things that are innately feminine. The reason you can't afford a house is not coffee. Like the not only does the math not work, like it's systemic oppression. It's like

rising housing prices and stagnating minimum wage and a trillion dollar student debt crisis. That's the reason you can't afford a house. It is i bought a coffee it's not that at all and you've done the math i saw the tiktok oh the math we're gonna link it we're gonna link that tiktok in the show notes the math is performing tiktoks yeah no wonder it was on my fyp but truly like that's why i saw it and i was like oh wow that's not even a quarter of a mortgage payment. You know what I mean? I saw it and I was like, wow. But how quick we are to believe something like that when we hear it circulating. Well, you can't buy a house because you're buying a coffee at your local independent coffee shop every week or whatever. But that's not the case. Keep going. Keep going.

If coffee is something that you're just buying out of habit or you don't like it or you're just completely like it's a mindless purchase. Yeah, we're going to stop doing that. I walk you through in the book like how to evaluate your purchases and if they actually bring you joy. But that's not necessarily coffee. That's a bunch of things that it could be, right? If you love your coffee, great. That's not the reason you're not rich. Okay. Another narrative is that I will be rich if I just work hard. Also known, of course, is the bootstraps narrative. This is a very American thing. It's just like, you know, if you work hard, you will be a millionaire or you will be rich. And of course, that's not true. There are plenty of people out there working way harder than I am and single mothers who have three jobs and cannot make ends meet. And that is not a lack of hard work. That is a lack of social safety nets and, again, minimum wage increases. And there are many, many, many things that have a much bigger impact on your day-to-day finances than how hard you are working or not working.

And it gaslights you too, because then when you're like, I'm working hard and I've been doing this for years, yet I can't save anything. Like I literally, I just can't save anything. And that's not like a willpower thing or that's not like a, I still have a Netflix subscription, but like actually I'm living paycheck to paycheck.

You then are like, okay, I need to just work harder. That's not you. The problem's not you. It's all of the problems around you. And I would say finally, just in general, again, my entire book is about really how and all of our work is about how women and money, just like money affects women differently and how that relationship is different than like a straight white man. But in that kind of vein of like frivolous spending, right? One of the other things that happens is the money advice for women compared to men is very different. The money advice even in 2023 for men is make more money, right? It is expand, it is play bigger, it is negotiate your salary, it is start investing. It's diversify your revenue streams.

What is the money advice for women? Shrink, right? Spend less money. That Dior purse ain't it, you cow, right? Like that is the narrative. That is what we're told is like, you know, coupon clip and find five meals to make under $5 and like shrink yourself, right? The advice to men is expand, make more money, which is great advice. But the advice to women

is spend less. And the thing about earning potential is in theory, your earning potential is infinite, right? Like you can make more money. At some point, you can't not spend money, right? If you get down to bare bones, you still have to pay your rent. You still have to buy groceries. You still have to feed yourself. You still have to go to daycare, right? And take your kids to daycare. You still have those expenses, right? So I think that's the other difference that I really want people to be aware of is, especially for women business owners, there's the shame in making money. There is the shame in doing well. There is the shame in having something that is successful. And I need you to call complete and total bullshit on that. There is something actually

that is so liberating and is a form of protest for people who are members of marginalized groups to be financially whole and stable. That is a form of protest in a society that does not want that for you. In a society that demands you play small, in a society that expects you to limit and shrink and be controllable. Because that's the thing about money is it makes you uncontrollable in the most beautiful way. When you have money, you don't answer to anybody. You don't answer to a boss. You don't answer to a partner. You don't answer to a client. You don't answer to anybody. You answer to you. And when society gets a whiff that, oh, she's no longer controllable, they're no longer controllable, it will try to shrink you. It will tell you,

making money and you being rich is actually really unflattering. That's a real thing people have told me. That's a real thing. It's like you would be a lot more palatable if you didn't talk about how much money you made. And I'm like, yeah, I'm sure I would be. I'm sure you would be able to stomach me better. That's not the point. The point is not for you who feel threatened by my independence to be able to stomach me better, stranger on the internet. That's not the point. The point is not for you who feel threatened by my independence to

be able to stomach me better stranger on the internet. That is not the point. The point is to live an expansive life that serves people and so I can be rich and have great things like that is the point of life. So all of these narratives around money, especially if you're a member of a marginalized group are there to shrink you keep you playing small, and for you to shame yourself. And if we start breaking out of that shame, not just as business owners, but as individuals, the entire world starts to change. Rant over. I'm fired up now. I am fired up to expand. No more clipping coupons for this one. I love it. And it reminds me of-

And you can clip coupons if you love that, but like make more money too. If you love it, go for it. I'm thinking of my friend Jess. My friend Jess is such a good coupon clipper. But yes, the whole premise of just like the difference in advice. And I remember, Tori, like when I started my business,

I just remember one of the things I struggled with was the concept of sometimes you have to spend money to actually make money. And even something as simple as that, where other, I have friends that they're like, of course, like, how did you not know that? So there's even this like, you know, sort of like rule book or knowledge base of information that's just withheld. And I was one of the ones that just didn't grow up hearing about it, hearing it talked about. And so I'm grateful for spaces where we have these conversations about money where we're able to actually talk about it. And so segwaying into our final question, because I could keep you all day, but I do want to get you back to impacting others and helping them

to grow their own wealth. I ask everybody this question on the podcast, and I'm really curious to hear your answer. But Tori, what do you think differentiates the businesses that succeed from the ones that fail? There's no right or wrong answer. Oh, I just had like six answers. It's immediately going to have an asterisk on it, but this is the easiest way I can say it. Be controversial. Like have something to say. I don't mean controversial and like say racist stuff. That's not what I mean. I mean like have an opinion. Especially in 2023, people expect you to have an opinion and people also expect to either connect with you and understand what your business is or not. I will use a TikTok trend to

explain this. The girls that get it, get it. And the girls that don't, don't. They will either get what you're doing or they won't. Trying to be everything to everybody makes you nothing to nobody. I'm going to say that again. Trying to be everything to everybody makes you nothing to nobody. That is the probably biggest thing that I see a general like anybody entrepreneur tried to do is they're like, okay, I need, I need to get clients and I need to get money. So I am just going to offer everything and I'm going to offer it to everybody. When I like went viral for the first time in 2019, I had a piece go out in MarketWatch, which is like a, you know, financial publication, but it blew up. It got like a million views in I think, like a week for like a news article, which was pretty substantial,

especially for Market Watch. And the interesting thing was, is that 95% of the comments on that piece were vitriolic. They hated me. They did not like me. They were men in their 60s named Steve, who were like, I don't get her. Why does she have to make this a gendered issue? Why can't she just talk about money? And I had this really interesting choice then, which is, oh, am I doing something wrong? Right? Am I doing something wrong? Should I shift? Clearly, I don't appeal to these people. And I'm losing potential, you know, followers or clients. But then I realized, actually, I'm doing something right. Because if they don't get it, again, the girls would get it, get it. The girls who don't don't.

The people who understand what we do at Her First 100K become brand evangelists for us. If you are turned off by the word feminism, you're not going to follow me. And you never were going to follow me. You're never going to be somebody who wanted to be a part of this community, right? So yes, if you follow Dave Ramsey, if again, you don't like the word feminist, you're not going to like me. Great. There's plenty of other people out there. There's also literally tens, probably hundreds of millions of women, people who love what we do, who are very aligned in terms of our customer persona, who will 100% get it because we have opinions, because we are speaking our mind, because

to some people we might be deemed slightly controversial. And I put that in quotes. So trying to be everything to everybody makes you nothing to nobody. I need you to pick the person, the thing you're trying to say. And understand that not everybody's going to get it. And that actually means you're doing something right. Because the people that will, will tattoo your brand on their forehead. Like they will love it and come back and be so excited to engage with you. And that's the people that you want. Just from a business angle, those are the people that purchase from you and keep purchasing from you. Those are the people who like everything you post, right? The people who

are fairweather followers or people who are like, yeah, I don't really get it. You don't want those people anyway. So especially when you're first getting started, and I think anybody at any stage of the business, really important to remind yourself, have the people in mind. Don't try to be everything to everybody. Understand that you have to connect with the people in mind. Don't try to be everything to everybody. Understand that you have to connect with the people you're trying to connect with, and they should immediately understand if this is for them or not. If it's not, cool, they move on. If it's for them, that's the time to start nurturing. What an episode. Tori, before... I'm just on fire. I'm like, I am fired up. Before we go,

though, I have no doubt that listeners are going to want to know more about your podcast, more about where they can get your book. We'll obviously link everything in the show notes, but go ahead and let us know where we can connect with you further. Thank you. I am at HerFirst100K on all the socials, H-E-R-F-I-R-S-T-1-0-0-K.com. If you want to see the kind of systems we're building and engage with them yourself, and maybe also give us your email, herfirst100k.com slash quiz is the place to go. So you can copy it right off of that. I have a book called Financial Feminist. I have a podcast that Nat was kind enough to guest on also called Financial Feminist. So yeah, if you Google me, if you Google herfirst100k, you'll find me. Amazing. Tori, thank you so much.

That ends our episode of the Independent Business Podcast. Everything that we've discussed today can be found at podcast.honeybook.com. Head to our website for access to show notes, relevant links, and all of the resources that you need to level up. And if you've enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe to the podcast so that you never miss our future content. Drop us a review and leave our guests some love on social. Thanks again for listening. Thank you so much to Natalie for having me on her show. If you enjoyed this episode, there are tons more episodes around business building, growing on social media over on the

Independent Business Podcast. If you love these kinds of episodes, I love talking about the behind the scenes, in the weeds, more metaphors here, kind of parts of my business, of building HFK, of our team. So please feel free to request those. Building a business is part of becoming financially free, part of fighting the patriarchy, building these mission-focused businesses, being able to give people jobs, being able to impact people is a huge part, obviously, of the work that we do. It's all of the work that we do. So if you're interested in learning more about how we do this, feel free to leave us a review, leave us a voicemail. If you're on Spotify, comment down below. We would love to hear from you. As always, you know how to support

the show. You can subscribe, you can share, you can like it, you can leave a five-star review. We just appreciate you being here. We appreciate you supporting the show. It allows us to keep doing it. So thank you for being here. I hope you have a great rest of your week and I hope you have sunshine and rainbows all day and we'll talk to you later. Bye. I hope you have a great rest of your week and I hope you have sunshine and rainbows all day. And we'll talk to you later. Bye. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields,

marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Khalil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda LeFue, Masha Bakhmakieva, Kaylin Sprinkle, Samaya Mullakario, and Harvey Carlson. Research by Arielle Johnson, audio engineering by Austin Fields, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.