Financial Feminist - 124. Tackling Taboos: What Sex Ed and Financial Ed Have in Common with Danielle Bezalel

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

Let’s talk about sex, shall we? Buckle up your seatbelts because, in this episode of the Financial Feminist, we're getting real about two of the juiciest topics out there: sex and money. Host Tori Dunlap welcomes fellow podcast host and sex educator Danielle Bezalel to blow the lid off the societal stigmas that make us blush. From sexual education to the demonization of female pleasure, and how it connects to money…they’re not holding anything back! Together, they explore how societal norms seek to control, silence, and suppress us and how embracing sexuality and chasing financial dreams can go hand in hand. You might want to put your earbuds in for this one. Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/start-here-financial-feminist-podcast  Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I think that a lot of women in particular feel a lot of shame around pleasure around their bodies about them being deserving of a happy and healthy relationship with themselves and with others. And I do think it's pretty similar with money, right? Like we feel shame that we're doing something wrong and we don't know how to maximize all of our money, like how to invest and the stock market. And like, those are things that we are not privy to those conversations from a very young age. And so I do think that unfortunately what unites those topics is shame. Hi, everybody. Welcome, financial feminists. If this is your first time, welcome to the

show. We're so excited you're here. And if you're an oldie but a goodie, welcome back. We are talking about a not-so-safe-for-work topic today. Doesn't mean you should turn off the podcast, but if you are listening with small children, this one probably isn't it. about sexual education, about pleasure, about consent, in which case it actually might be really interesting. But maybe listen to it as a parent first and decide if this is what you want your child to listen to. Maybe at least it sparks a good conversation. But if you, again, are listening to podcasts for some reason on like the work Sonos, now's the time to turn it off or it's about to get really weird. So we are talking today with incredible podcaster, sex educator, Danielle Bezalel. Danielle, aka DB, is a creator, executive producer, and host of the Sex Ed with DB podcast, a feminist podcast bringing you all of the sex education you never got, centering LGBTQ plus and BIPOC experts. Danielle earned a master's of public health with expertise

in sexuality, sexual and reproductive health from Columbia University. No big deal. Danielle lives in Oakland, California. All right. Today we talked about the idea of enthusiastic consent versus what we were taught almost all of us, which was like, no means no. And I share a little bit of a vulnerable moment from my dating history about sparing the male ego. If you have ever done something that you haven't wanted to do physically, sexually, in order to not make men mad or to not damage their ego, I think this will be a really interesting conversation. And if you are hearing that for the first time and you're like, what the hell? Listen, we'll give you some more context.

We also talk about why female pleasure is so demonized. And we're not just talking about sexual pleasure, but how that connects to how we talk about money. We also talk about discrimination in the healthcare system towards queer people, general stigma around sex, sexuality, pleasure, sexual health. And again, how all of this relates to our relationship with feminism, to our bodies, to each other. This is an incredibly powerful episode. DB and I just immediately connected about all of these things and how they all intersect. And it's one of my favorite interviews that I've done in recent months. So I'm really excited for you to hear it. So without further ado, let's go ahead and get into it.

done in recent months. So I'm really excited for you to hear it. So without further ado, let's go ahead and get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. in our research we found you're a theater broadway person is that right i sure am yeah okay so i have a degree in theater that's what i did was okay we have a lot to discuss okay favorite musical and then dream role oh wow um, the first thing that came to mind for favorite musical was Rent. Everyone who's around our age, I am the ripe millennial age of 30. So in middle school,

I was really, really just performing for myself in my living room to every Rent song. So that's that. I have the most controversial opinion of any theater kid which is that i don't like rent oh okay well listen i'm 29 so we're about we're about the same you're allowed to come at me like don't be polite you're allowed to come at me my issue i get it's so culturally

significant like i know i understand and respect its cultural significance i just watched it a couple years ago for the first time in a long time. And I found myself being the worst kind of adult where I was like, oh, I'm officially an adult where I'm just like, just go pay your rent. Why don't be bohemian? Realistic. Literally. I'm like, just what are you complaining about? Just go pay your rent. Just like submit your rent, get a job. It's okay. Listen, you're making fair points. And again, in middle school, I had no concept of what they were struggling with. I was like, you guys just want to kind of jam on the street. I'm down to kind of sing along with you. Totally. perhaps um yes yeah i just feel like you know hamilton has had its time to shine for good

reason i feel like people have moved on also for good reason because there are new things in the pipe but right angelica schuyler i just like love singing her music and she's a badass bitch is really what it comes down to i am pumped for what will inevitably happen, which is a gender-bent Hamilton. Oh, yes. And I can't wait for a woman to play Thomas Jefferson. That just seems very exciting. It sure is. Yeah.

I'm excited to see that too. And also, like, on the flip, Lafayette, right? So it's kind of like, what will she do in both of those roles? I'm taking this horse by the reins, making red coats red with bloodstain. Yeah, we're going to see how that's going to work. What's your favorite musical? I can't keep going on the rap. Oh, it's like, it is a stupid question.

I'm sad I asked you. I'm mad I've asked you because it's like, yeah, pick a favorite child. The one that really was sealing my fate of like, oh, my rent growing up was Phantom of the Opera. Like it's still, I am, I'm my rent growing up was Phantom of the Opera. Like it's still. Oh, okay.

I love it. I got the like highlights of Phantom of the Opera from my mom when I was like seven or eight. And like, I just, I love that show. And like, yeah, weird and creepy and kind of problematic,

but I still love it. We accept it for, for what it is. I, I saw it. Yeah. Last year I won the lottery and I was like second row and I was just like, oh, I just still love this show. I still love it. Dreams do come true. Exactly. I'm trying to think. Book of Mormons up there is one of my favorites. The favorite one I've ever seen, though, was a production of Once on

this Island a couple of years ago on Broadway. And I was like, oh, I haven't seen that one. Oh, my God. I had seen it done in like community ago on Broadway. And I was like, Oh, I haven't seen that one. Oh my God. I had seen it done in like community theater before then. And I was kind of like, okay, whatever. But done right. I was literally like, again, won the lottery, got rush tickets, front row, feet on the stage. It's set obviously on an island.

So there's sand on stage. They bring a live goat out at one point. It was just the most incredible staging I'd ever seen. And I was just like, this is incredible. This is amazing. Nothing tops this. So I think that was really... Very immersive.

Dream Roll would probably be like a Christine Daae, but I don't vocally anymore have the range to be able to do that. Oh, and like an L from Legally Blonde, because I know every word to that show too. Oh, and like an L from Legally Blonde because I know every word to that show too. Oh, I saw that simply three times when I was a kid. It's so good. On Broadway. I loved it. I thought it was fantastic. It's so good. Oh, and then why can't I remember her name? Hold on. I'll think of it. Next to Normal. The daughter from Next to Normal. Oh, people have been raving about that show and I haven't seen it. It's a great show. She plays piano and I play piano. So I'm like, perfect. Why can't I remember? It's going

to bug me. I'm going to think of it halfway through the interview. But yeah, that's one of them too. I have one more cue, which is, are you into Little Shop of Horrors? I don't know it very well. I like know Suddenly Seymour, but I don't know a lot more of the show than that. Okay. I also didn't know very well and was like, this is kind of like campy, kitschy. Like maybe I am just past, you know, the ability to be able to see it. And I got tickets for it. It's off Broadway. And I loved it.

And then my fiance and I, we saw the movie, which is like on HBO or Max or whatever the fuck. And it's so good and really campy and just like Rick Moranis in the 80s. And the music is really great. Oh, fun. Really fun. Highly recommend it. Was the Off-Broadway one with Skylar Astin? Was that when he was there?

I didn't see when he was in it, but he was indeed in it. Okay. He's from Pitch Perfect, right? Yes. And like a show on NBC was Zoe's Imperfect Extraordinary Playlist. I don't remember. Anyway. Oh, okay. And the daughter's name is Natalie.

I just remembered it. Anyway, welcome to the show. That's it. Thank you so much. I'm so happy you're here. I just realized I'm like, if I don't reign us in now, the entire episode will be us talking about musical theater. So I love, yeah, learning again that you have a BA in film and media alongside a master's in public health. So how did you go from this love of the arts, this love of film to teaching sex education?

It's a really good, good cue. So yes, I went to UC Berkeley for undergrad. Go Bears. Was really, really into kind of like documentary style film. I loved storytelling. I loved getting to know people and who they really were. And the messiness that makes us human was always very exciting to me. I always like telling things and hearing about things through a funny lens. I've always been a fan of comedy. And so the year after I graduated from

college, I taught English in Israel for a year. And my teaching cohort, we all went on a field trip one day to this very, very religious community. And these were like Orthodox, Orthodox Jews who like didn't have access to like internet and smartphones and like current books and such. And so we were just kind of walking around there and the main rabbi there was kind of telling us his traditions. Here's my synagogue.'s you know information about our community and he kind of offhandedly mentions that uh he has five daughters and when each of them reach the age of 17 or 18 they get married off by the matchmaker and they don't learn about sex until their wedding night when they have it for the first time wow and then the cherry on top he's like and we pray

that they get pregnant. Like we pray that that is the beginning of their family. We were talking about musicals and you said matchmaker and I just go like fiddler on the roof. But this sounds like a much more dramatic version of that. Oh, indeed. Real life, real life. Right.

No, you got that right. It's a way more negative version, I would say. And I, as a 21-year-old at the time, was completely horrified by these acts of complete injustice. And, you know, I was the they don't want to be parents? And I kind of rattled off a couple of questions like that and was like super hot and sweaty and just like kind of, you know, ready to get my argument on. And this guy just kind of waves me off and goes, no, no, this is just how it goes here. Next question. And that was nine years ago now. was nine years ago now. And it was that day that I went home and I Googled how to be a sex educator and how can I get my master's in public health in this to ensure that other people who I interact with don't have to experience this. Wow. So one of the things that I'm really excited to chat with

you about is we talk about money on the show and we actually know from statistics that it is somehow more taboo than things like death or politics or religion and also sex yet these are two of the most taboo things and i think specifically taboo with women we won't talk about money and we won't talk about we might talk about like oh my god i had sex last night or oh my god i got laid last night but like we won't talk about anything beyond that. So what do you think money and sex have in common that make people feel so uncomfortable? particular feel, I'll speak to the sex piece, a lot of shame around pleasure around their bodies about them being deserving of a happy and healthy relationship with themselves and with others. And I do think it's pretty similar with money, right? Like we feel shame that we're doing something wrong and we don't know how to maximize all of our money and that we don't know, you know,

I've done extensive research on you and you have so many resources on like how to maximize all of our money and that we don't know, you know, I've done extensive research on you and you have so many resources on like how to invest and the stock market. And like, those are things that we are not privy to those conversations from a very young age. And so I do think that unfortunately what unites those topics is shame. Yeah, I would 100% agree with that. And we've made the metaphor often here that, you know,

a lot of people say, well, we could just solve a lot of these issues by teaching personal finance in schools. And I go, well, we're teaching sex ed in schools, but I would argue that's not going great. It's not going well in terms of it's better than nothing, but also questions arise about who's going to teach it. How is it going to be taught? Right. I went to Catholic school. The sex ed I did get was don't do it. There was nothing beyond that. And it definitely not a conversation about pleasure. So that was the other tie that I see is a lot of times the answer to a lot of these like bigger questions of like, how do we educate young people about sex or money? It's just like, oh, well, teach them in schools. But that's a deeper onion to peel.

Definitely. I think you hit the nail on the head with the question of who is teaching this and what are their motivations? One, you know, two actually scary stats that I have for you to start this off is only 17 U.S. states require sex ed programming to be medically accurate. So there's that. And that's a current stat. That's in 2023, actually. And in addition to that, what we know is that the federal government wastes, and I'm using wastes intentionally, $110 million per year on abstinence-only until marriage programs. So just imagine if that money could be used effectively for comprehensive, pleasure-based, medically accurate, age-appropriate sex education in schools, what would that look like for young people? You actually transitioned perfectly to my next

question, which is like, if I'm a listener, I might be thinking maybe just off the jump, how does sex or pleasure or sex ed relate to my money or relate to personal finance? And can we talk first, the show's called Financial Feminist, can we talk first about what are the financial repercussions of no sex ed period, but maybe poor sex education? And then can we talk from the feminist angle? What are the consequences from the feminist movement for not having sex ed or not having comprehensive, medically accurate sex education. Yeah. I mean, even without putting a dollar amount to it, right? Like these states that are

enacting abstinence only until marriage programs, they're misleading, they're incomplete, they're actively harmful. You know, research shows that federal AB only funding doesn't lower adolescent birth rates. In fact, the more that state policies emphasize abstinence only programs, the higher the incidence of adolescent pregnancies and births there are. So I think like even without the dollar amount, we know the research and the research shows that abstinence only does not work and is actively harmful. And when we're talking about money and how much this is actually costing us, I have a few stats. And then I also want to kind of reframe those stats and talk about stigma. Because I think the way in which these stats are set up by organizations like the CDC, you know, these organizations have their agendas.

You know, these organizations have their agendas. And so I think it would be I would be remiss not to mention what that really looks like, especially from the feminist intersectional lens. So let's talk about STIs and unplanned pregnancy really quickly and how much those things cost. Right. So STIs have a significant financial impact on the U.S. health care system. New infections in 2018 totaled 1616 billion in direct medical costs alone. And you might be wondering, how common are STIs? And I'm here to tell you, very common. One in five people in the U.S. has an STI, according to the CDC. So we should really be normalizing conversations around STIs, around treating them, curing them in some circumstances, depending on the STI. So that's the bucket around STIs. And now when we're thinking about unplanned pregnancy,

despite the fact that unintended pregnancy rates are declining, the annual cost of unintended pregnancy in the U.S. increased from $4.6 billion in 2011 to $5.5 billion in 2018. And that economic burden is likely higher when you're factoring in childcare, indirect costs, and other kinds of costs. And a stat on that, how common are unplanned pregnancies? 50% actually of pregnancies in the US are unplanned. So once again, let's talk about this more. Let's chat about contraception and condoms and how people actually get pregnant. People don't really know their own body and other people's bodies and how they work. And the final, like, frame that I kind of just want to offer here is that even naming these statistics in some way is stigmatizing, like,

even naming how much, you know, this costs. Because these programs, if you look at the history of them, have really been put into place for decades to essentially control the way that low-income folks and BIPOC folks live their lives and really control the choices that they make and the judgments that we have on folks for the way in which that they choose to live their lives and make decisions about their bodies. And so as a sex educator, it's my duty, it's my job, it's my privilege to be able to normalize these things that happen and not make people feel shame for them, which is why investing in this medically accurate, science-backed, culturally responsive sex ed is super critical because it adds so much to people's lives. Sex

positivity is so much more effective than sex negativity. Well, and to take it one step further, if we do have, you know, unplanned pregnancies, and of course, this is the bigger political issue, if there isn't access to birth control and then further access to abortion, that becomes a financial issue where you are asking someone, typically someone lower income person of color to have a child to, you know, almost said fulfill the pregnancy, but to give birth to, you know, a child that they, they are not ready for that they financially cannot handle. And I think that to your point, it's, it's such a financial issue and also stigmatizes typically people who are lower income or who are people of color, not just, you know, in the STI and also, you know, one out of three people who have abortions are

already parents. We know this. Parents know the financial, emotional, mental burden and challenges that come with raising children. So I think it is really critical to get people all forms of reproductive health care that they need. You know, there's this like kind of false argument around like, well, if people have access to Plan B, then why don't they need a boy? It's like, no, if people have access to Plan B, they need access to Plan B. They need access to abortion. They need access to contraception. They need access to every single part of what makes up comprehensive reproductive health care.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. I think that it must be talked about as health care, which is what we've been trying to do on the show and what we're all trying to do in the political spheres as we move forward. One of the things our research kept coming back to is that women's sexuality is often repressed more intensely and through more varied means than men's sexuality. What are some ways that you're seeing this play out? This is an interesting question. I think the first thing that comes to mind is the media, right? When we think about what empowered women and femmes are like in the media,

that representation is very recent and still is definitely not as common as what we see when we look at cis men in the media. When we're specifically looking at porn and the messages that we're getting in porn, right? This is just starting to change within the last 10 years. Like ethical porn is definitely part of the conversation now than it ever has been before. However, when we're talking about Pornhub and when we're talking about super mainstream porn, if we're seeing titles of certain videos that are extremely misogynistic and degrading to women, those messages go somewhere, right? And especially the fact that the average age that a boy first sees pornography in the U.S. is 11, I believe, something around

11 years old. And for girls, it's a little later, but still something like 13 or 14 years old. So when we're starting to see these messages from such a young age and we're not taught as young women that our pleasure matters, that masturbation can be empowering, that we don't need somebody else in order to give us permission to explore our sensuality, our eroticism, our sexuality. And so the more and more that that is written about in books and shown in TV and movies and pornography, the more likely we are to be talking about it in our circles. And, you know, it's not just that. It's also kind of like, are our parents having these kinds of conversations with us from a young age, from an age-appropriate standpoint? Are we learning about age-appropriate sex education in school? It's kind of like this trifecta that needs to all come together. And so I do think that this is shifting. And like when we get into the industry around female pleasure and kind of what that looks like, we can get into that. But I do think it takes a while to change these very pervasive messages. Yeah. I mean, let's talk about some of the myths around female pleasure and around sex

in general. Like what are some of the most egregious ones you've heard? I mean, this is a pretty common one, but that it's a myth that there is something wrong with you as a woman. If you're not able to reach orgasm from penetrative sex, I think for a majority of my life, where I have seen a sex scene in a movie, if it's a straight couple, the man is on top of the woman getting a few pumps in, he orgasms, and then he rolls right on off of her as if she also somehow orgasmed or she didn't orgasm and that's also fine. Like there's so many things that are wrong with that picture. Or if the media does portray a woman's orgasm, it is from the couple pubs.

When Harry met Sally. Yeah, also that. Yeah, it's just this like, it happens in two seconds. And that's somehow like she has the craziest orgasm of her life. Right. After about 30 seconds of sexual contact. Right. Yeah.

Totally. And that doesn't happen for most women. So yeah, you know, it's an important stat to share that around 80% of people with vulvas need or desire clitoral stimulation in order to reach orgasm. That is something that's not taught at all. I also think back to the STI thing, you know, when we're talking about myths, it is definitely a myth that you're someone who's so dirty or unlovable if you get an STI. As we said before, one in five people in the US have an STI. When it comes to oral herpes,

like 50 to 80% of Americans actually have oral herpes. And that's just a cold sore. Like that is just the name of it. And something that people get really surprised by is that the number one symptom for an STI is no symptom at all. So it's very possible that you have had an STI and just haven't known it. So I think really breaking down conversations around STIs and making them as normal as a common cold when we catch it and what we do about it is really important. Right. When I think about HPV too, people don't realize men cannot get tested for HPV. So it passes remarkably quickly without you knowing it until you go into the doctor as a woman or as a person with a vulva and then get a test. And so that's one like even previous partners of mine or men who are friends of mine that I've talked to, they're like, oh yeah, it's like I've tested

for HPV. And I'm like, no, that's actually not possible. Like we don't know whether you have it or not. We know in women, we don't know for men. Right. And the scary thing for women and people with vulva is like that can cause cervical cancer, you know? And so it's really important that we kind of are on top of our testing, that we use protection, that we're having conversations with our partners around this, because these are really intense consequences for something that we should just be having a normal conversation about to try to prevent them. Yeah. And vaccinations. There's an HPV vaccination. And I know I didn't get mine until I was early 20s. I got vaccinated for most of the other stuff,

but for whatever reason, I didn't get vaccinated growing up. So super important. important. I would love to talk to you about something that I'm sure has come up, especially in the past couple of years in this post me too world, or as we're thinking more about this, the conversation around consent, I think is just so nuanced and difficult, but also incredibly important. How has your, I don't know, maybe your thoughts have changed about it, but like, how has your approach to consent and educating people about consent changed, if at all, in the past couple years? And I imagine you're having to talk more about it. What are the questions that people are asking you about consent? I think generally speaking, it's very refreshing the kinds of interactions that I've seen on our social media accounts about consent. I think it is really because of Me Too movement,

right, that these conversations have become more commonplace. The questions and the kinds of topics that I really like teaching about are the things that I feel could potentially get sex educators maybe feeling like they're feeling the edges around consent, but specifically around like body language and gray areas of consent and kind of like what people don't talk about around that, which is like rejection and kind of all of these little things, because you can tell someone until you're blue in the face that yes means yes. Does that actually give them the skills that they need to have an interaction where if it doesn't go exactly like that, are they able to navigate that? Right. And so I also like to talk about the fact that, hey, consent could look really different for someone

who's on a date for the first time versus a couple that's been together for 20 years and everything in between, right? When we don't know somebody else, it is extra important for us to be very communicative. And yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, yes means yes. It needs to be enthusiastic. It needs to be specific. It needs to be free will, the person, you know, all these things that we know and have talked about. But I do think these like gray areas and these nuances around those interactions are really important, especially with young do if you ask someone something and they just say like, no, how can you support their no and also not make it about yourself and like ruin the evening, right? There's so much wrapped up in this conversation around consent when it comes to communication that I think is really important to like get into the weeds of.

I want to highlight what you just said as well, which is this concept of enthusiastic consent. I don't know if you grew up this way. I think many of my women friends did where it was X, Y, or Z with you and I'm not comfortable with these other things. So talk to me about the shift from no means no to yes means yes. Yeah. I mean, I think that at least I'm placing myself back in my middle school days, right? Where it was so commonplace for specifically boys to feel like they have the ability to like slap girls' asses or touch them inappropriately. And like those things are still happening, right? It's not just because- The bra strap snapped. The pulling the bra, yeah, the camisole, right? Like all that was definitely happening. I even remember as a middle schooler walking along my street and like a car coming by and like cat calling me, right? Like there are so many

experiences that young women, LGBTQ folks, folks in these minorities, like specifically experience that now I hope that with the switch over, like what you just said from no means no to yes means yes, we're teaching people that, hey, your body is yours. I think like I didn't necessarily feel that way when I was younger. I felt like I needed to kind of just be a shield for what somebody else wanted rather than like really investigate what would feel good and make me happy in my own body. And so I do think this kind of goes hand in hand with the conversation around masturbation and pleasure and kind of the shame that specifically young women and people with vulvas feel around getting their own pleasure. And I think, again,

those conversations really, to me, are linked. Like, I don't think we can talk about consent and healthy relationships without talking about feeling empowered in our bodies and in our pleasure. Kind of a serious shift, but one I wanted to dive into. When I was actively dating, going on dates, one of the things that has happened to me multiple times is that I have set a boundary and I have only dated men. And what'll happen is that men will push my boundary or they won't listen. And I find that I have a choice. I can either double down and say, no, I'm not interested in doing that. Or I can just continue. And I think for some women, I've talked with many women and read so many

articles about this. The protection of the male ego is more important than what you actually want because it's your own safety. Like if I say no, is this man going to hurt me? Is he going to assault me? Or it's just at the most minor version, is it going to be a whole thing? Like a whole discussion and a whole thing. And I remember it happened actually three times in like a year. I had to literally kick men out of my apartment because I was just like, I have said this thing. You have

pushed what part of me saying that thing. Did you not understand? And I would like you to leave. And there was one person in particular, and I talked about this on social media when it happened, I could literally watch his eyes and his face change when he realized that maybe he was just like all of the other men in this moment of like, oh, and I think he was a sweet person. He texted me after, profusely apologized, but just this moment where I literally saw on his face the realization of like, oh, she's making me leave because I pushed her too far. So I would just love for us to talk about, I just want women to feel comfortable setting their boundary, even at the expense of a man's comfortability or a man's ego. Because we've been told all of our lives that the number one priority is to never make somebody else uncomfortable, even if that means sacrificing what you want.

But I know on the flip side of that, the danger of like the actual literal physical danger of doing that. I don't know if I have a question, but just I want to talk about it because I think I wish more people talked about how difficult that is to either respect and honor yourself with the potential risks of that. Or do I do something sexually that I'm not going to want to do or that I might regret doing just because it's quote unquote easier in the moment? I really, really appreciate you sharing that and know for certain based on my own experience and every woman that I know that you are certainly not alone. And I'm sorry that you experienced that

and no one should have to. You're correct in that people should be able to hear a boundary that's set and say, okay, I will respect that boundary. And I think, again, like going back to the media and the messaging that young boys in particular are being taught. And I, again, hope this is changing and shifting. And it really depends on who you talk to, what state you're in, like what family you're in. But we need to really teach everyone and boys in particular to listen and to pay attention and to respect other people's boundaries and space. Because I think ultimately it stems from the power and privilege that men have physically and otherwise to be able to not listen to somebody else. And when I was dating, not listen to somebody else. And when I was dating, the same things would happen to me.

And so much so like physically, like, you know, we would be making out and then the guy would literally just start pushing my head to his beltline. And I'd be like, oh, like, hey, do you want to talk about what, you know, like, like no kind of ability to have a conversation around, like, if I'm comfortable with that, you know, like it really it brings up so much for people. And I'm sure that people listening have gone through similar experiences. And so I really appreciate the call out. I think that if anything, you are extremely brave and you shouldn't have to be. But I do really applaud you for saying, hey, no, like this, this was a pretty simple ask and I have no interest in continuing on with you.

I've also done the opposite, though. I have done something sexually that I haven't wanted to do because it was just easier. And again, I put easier in so many quotes, it was just like you know what okay it's gonna be a whole thing and we're gonna have to like i'm gonna have to educate this man and like rather than just do that i'm just gonna do it and then i won't see this person right i've also been there i've also been there yeah and i remember doing that and being like i don't i i don't want to do that i don't want to feel like i have to do something sexually that i'm not interested in doing just to make this fucking

man comfortable totally like no we're not doing that yeah but i've gotten you know the horrible thing is i have gotten quote-unquote lucky where you know all of these men even if they did have an emotional reaction they left my apartment without a lot of incident and so yeah and i think the other the other thing i wanted to mention and ask you about is i think this narrative too plays in that the media has taught us is that we as women can't say yes we have to be coy and we have to be like no i don't want that when really like we do right exactly and i think men have also been told that of like oh you know she'll come around or she does want it. Right. And even like back to musicals, but Grease, right? That was the whole thing in Grease. I think that that's part of it too is this very gender role thing of men pursue women act like we aren't interested until yeah they finally wear us down oh my gosh I'm assuming you've seen the

critically acclaimed film the devil wears Prada of course of course I watch it pretty much every year since it came out but it comes out on cable all the time and I sit down when I'm at my parents' house. Listen, it's on TNT. We'll watch it. Oh, yeah. TNT knows drama. Yeah. TNT sure does know drama. But yeah, I watched it again recently. And there's that scene where Andy, played by Anne Hathaway, of course, is in Paris and she's like drunk and like about to hook up with that like hot blonde journalist, whatever his name is. And she got Harry Potter for her. Yes, you got it. And she's over and over again, like, no,

I'm in a strange city. And I'm like, I barely know you. And then he kisses her. And she's like, no, I you know, I just broke up with my boyfriend. And then he kisses her again. And she's like, I've run out of excuses. And he goes, thank God. And starts making out. Like, that is our... Even I, as a good little feminist, can hear that and be like, actually, it's kind of swoon-worthy, though.

Like, oh, you know? We're indoctrinated. Right? Yeah. It's tough. It's really tough to look back on that and be like, like, that was like 15 years ago. And like, you know,

again, like, how old were we when we were watching these things and internalizing these messages that this was the kind of relationship that we wanted to have? Right. And that those were the roles you needed to play of, like, I'll just kiss her without asking. Because that's sexy. And, right. That's exciting.

Yeah. I'll still watch it. I'm going to have a whole thing. I know. I'm going to have a whole thing. Oh, related to the devil was proud and then we'll move on um is the boyfriend the villain in that movie like who's the real villain because some people say it's miranda some people say it's a boyfriend and

some people say it's actually andy okay um miranda's definitely kind of a bitch i mean she's like not very nice right like she's definitely one of the villains. I don't think the boyfriend's a villain. I, like, my friends were like, I remember the boyfriend being such an asshole. It was like, guys, he's just kind of, like, being normal. And, like, she's the one that's, like, missing all his parties

and late and was always working. Like, I don't know. And it's also Adrian Grenier and I have a fat crush on him, so it's hard. I'm biased. Entourage! I did, um, I have a fat crush on him so it's hard i'm biased entourage i did um i i have a lot of feelings about him because yeah at first i was like oh he's the good guy he's trying to like ground her and then i watch it through like a hashtag girl boss lens and i'm like oh he doesn't like her ambition he's trying and he's uncomfortable he wants his very predictable comfortable life and she wants more than that and he feels then

insignificant and that's not her problem that's his but whole other conversation true i think we could have an entire episode about the devil or his problem anytime i just wanted to bring a little light-hearted energy to like how do we tell men no and get them to agree and accept it diving a little bit more into your business, you've talked a lot about how you've been consistently shadow banned online because your work is considered taboo or not family friendly. How do you work in this like restrictive environment while also providing education that I think is incredibly crucial and important and of course shouldn't be taboo? Thank you so much for asking because it is hard,

not going to lie to you. You know, I think it's really amazing that we're able as a society to use social media as marketing and a way to reach people where otherwise they couldn't get access to things. I would say that someone who does food blogging has a much easier time getting their business recognized than I do as a sex educator. And that is because companies like Meta and TikTok and other kinds of platforms that we use in order to get our content out there have these policies, right, that they have put into place that kind of blanket a bunch of content. And if your content is categorized by a person or by a bot, an AI system as falling under that inappropriate content, then you can get shadow banned, meaning like your profile doesn't show up for certain followers, your account can get dinged and flagged, suspended, and in some cases, knock on wood, I hope this never ever happens to me,

but it can get deleted permanently. And that has happened to many, many people. And, you know, the hardship that I and my team experience are a fraction of what sex workers and other people in the industry experience. So I definitely want to, you know, chat about that at some point if we have time. But just to give you some examples, like when advertising for our podcast, our ads get taken down all the time. We can't advertise on Facebook sometimes and our boosted ads get denied on Instagram and TikTok. And in terms of, you know, the stigma and bias around sexual health topics that a lot of people who are making these decisions to take down this content have, it makes it extremely difficult to run a business about the subject of sex, even when we have to write on our videos.

This is for educational purposes only. If we're talking about vulva care or bacterial vaginosis or something around the science of an orgasm, we shouldn't have to defend this. If you're someone who has been scrolling on Instagram or TikTok, you've definitely seen thirst trap videos predominantly of women and ask yourself, why do those get to stay up? And that's because it's the male gaze, not the female gaze. When we are objectifying women, that's just fine, I guess. But when we want to empower women and teach them about their pleasure, nope, sorry, that gets banned. So I think it's a really, really important conversation to have. I was just about to ask, if you were talking more, let's say, about erectile dysfunction or about strictly men's sexual health.

And when I say that, what we've defined men's sexual health as, which is like, get as much pussy as possible. I'm assuming that content would stay up. I think that that is true. I mean, I think that, you know, there are a lot of men, like, peddling this kind of information. And I do think that while some of it is really important and medically backed, some of it is not. It's not just for men. That's for women. Like, there's a lot of misinformation. This is just in all industries, but it is particularly harmful

when it comes to sexual health, because this is people's actual lives and relationships that people are giving bad advice or pseudoscience to. And so you make a good point. My algorithm knows me obviously, and doesn't feed me those videos, but I'm sure that men's content easily stays up compared to women-focused content. Well, and speaking of erectile dysfunction, we found research on the sex toy industry specifically, and we found that the market for vibrators is 10 times larger than the market for ED meds. And it seems like you can't go a week without seeing like a Viagra or a Cialis ad. How does this attitude reflect in the work that you do and the stigma around female pleasure that you're hoping to change? What a great cue.

Simply put, vibrators are awesome. I mean, like, if you haven't used one out there... You haven't partaken. Please try one. I mean, I think like they're simply put, right? Like let alone the fact that masturbation and especially masturbation with sex toys and use of sex toys in general, like leads to so many positive health benefits. We're talking about better sleep, lowering anxiety, in some cases, lessening period cramps. You know, there are so many health benefits. But the main thing I really

want to hammer home here is that it feels really good. And that is good enough of a reason to brag about them and to really hope that people literally and figuratively take pleasure into their own hands. I do think that, you know, as you just said, with the research showing that sex toys is a massive industry, I think that VCs and people who are funneling money into these companies are finally waking up to that fact. So I really hope that the stigma is shifting, is changing, that we really see the benefits of championing sex toys, not as something that is additional, but something that is essential to our sexual health and well-being. And I also want to highlight, even when we do talk about sex toys sometimes, and it's in a derogatory way

of if you're having sex with a partner like a sex toy is a quote-unquote crutch and i want to just just say that's bullshit like put that right in the trash yeah put it right in the trash where it belongs the sex toy is on your team it's on everyone's team. Dr. Lori Mintz, an amazing professor and writer and goddess in the field, likes to talk about turn-taking when it comes to a straight couple having sex. As we know, two people probably, if you're very skilled, good for you, but won't be coming at the same exact time, right? So maybe she goes first and she uses the vibrator and then has an orgasm. And then maybe you do some penetration and then maybe he orgasms. Like, I think framing it in this turn-taking way can make using a sex toy a lot more approachable

because some people might be like, well, how am I going to fit it if we're doing it with penetrative sex? You know, hey, slow down. You don't need to use it at the same exact time. Let's do her first, then do him or vice versa. And I just think that if we included it in our conversations around sex with couples, that they would become so much more normalized. Can we also debunk the myth that like sex doesn't count unless both people orgasm incredibly important some people just won't orgasm at all during sex and that is completely your prerogative i do want to mention because i just must must, the orgasm gap. So, like, it's really important to know. Please do. Okay, great.

Like, where we're at currently. Like, again, these numbers are shifting. They're changing while we're becoming more aware and prioritizing female pleasure. But for every 100 times that a cis couple has penetrative sex and has sex in general, the man will orgasm 95 times and the woman will orgasm 65 times. So there's a very large orgasm gap currently. When we're looking at queer people, I believe for gay men, it's something in like the 80% something. Maybe you can fact check me. And then for lesbian women specifically, it's also higher, like something in the 80s. So queer people are a little better at this.

And why? Because it maybe requires more communication. You know, people have been having to make their own scripts. They haven't really seen their sex represented on screen. So they're making up their own rules. And so while it's not a requirement and we shouldn't feel pressure to reach orgasm during sex, we should really prioritize happiness, pleasure, joy, connection, whatever we want to prioritize. We need to recognize this elephant in the room, which is that women are not being prioritized in their pleasure. in their pleasure. Let's talk about the word pleasure, both sexual and otherwise, because it's been a theme lately of our work is I've just realized that I think the patriarchy's biggest

goal beyond just, of course, like making sure women don't have rights is like specifically making sure women don't have pleasure. Like if I think of the diet and weight loss industry, shrink yourself and make yourself as tiny as possible and make yourself as miserable as possible. And that beautifully tasty pizza or pasta that you want to eat, well, how dare you have that bit of pleasure? Too bad. Right, right. I think about obviously with money, it's like, I want money to give myself and my community stability and joy and ease and pleasure. stability and joy and ease and pleasure. That's what money as a tool can buy me. Obviously, sexual pleasure. We have, as women and as anybody under the assist gender straight white man has been deprived of that and then told just deal, deal with that. Oh, I really like the idea of expanding the definition of pleasure to whatever it means to you.

I think sexual pleasure is a right. And I think it's really important that people feel empowered to access that right. As young women, we are typically not told to do that. And so I do think we need to be honest about the way in which we're encouraged to have sexual pleasure. And at the same time, there are we're encouraged to have sexual pleasure. And at the same time, there are so many ways to access our pleasure. I mean, I think like specifically when we're talking about connection with our friends and with our family and with our partner and with our body, the idea of like looking at yourself in the mirror every day and just finding pleasure and joy in

the little things about you that make you happy. I encourage that practice because I think that it is just that it, it is not something that comes easily for most people, but when you do it and when you're able to really recognize the absolute power and wonder that can come in accepting and loving yourself and your body for who it is, there is immense, endless pleasure that can come from that. So I really like this idea of kind of like breaking open the word and really allowing yourself to feel like the utmost joy and pleasure, even if it's not in a sexual realm. Oh, and I think it is the most like radical act of protest. Totally. Is being comfortable with yourself and seeking out joy and pleasure and ease and all of those things. Because in a society that just wants you to feel miserable and depleted and deprived,

what a beautiful thing to be like, no, I'm going to have a beautiful sex life. I'm going to eat this chocolate croissant. I'm going to rest. I'm going to take a vacation. I'm going to show up as my full authentic self, even if it makes people uncomfortable. This is what I'm going to do. Especially with the food thing, dude. I feel like so... It's just like, eat whatever the fuck you want like i just want people to like and what your body wants yeah like i just want people to like think about what exactly they want and then eat it like that to me is like again also a radical act especially in like this fucking age of ozempic and just kind of like no everything that we're being told is just like, no, like we were right all along. Like we don't want you to, you know, like, you know, it's just like this idea of I want you to disappear.

No, literally, I want you to shrink. It's like essentially what we're being told. Right. I want you to shrink to as small as possible so that you physically emotionally cerebrally like you take up less space you take up less space it's my like my other thing about like high heels if you want to wear high heels great but i i think they were invented for that same like you can't outrun anybody in high heels oh my god they talk about that in she's the man do you like that movie i haven't seen that movie but i do love amanda bines so i need to watch it you haven't seen she's the man no i've never seen it i know i'm so sorry okay i just know the quote what is it like i see you for who you truly are you ugly okay you got it

yes you're on the internet you're someone who's on the internet oh yeah but yeah i think i think we've just been told to like hate ourselves yeah hate ourselves so much and again don't don't take don't speak up too loud don't take up too much space and that's that's how the patriarchy gets us is we just we just deprive ourselves of it and they don't have to do any work and that's why you know i have a little homework i guess for, for people listening. Like, if you're comfortable, go ahead and masturbate at some point in the next week. You know, like really get in touch with your body, get in tune with it, light a candle, listen to some audio porn, like figure out what feels good for you and just feel good in your, give yourself permission to feel good in your body for like 10 minutes and see how it feels.

Totally. I would be remiss if I didn't highlight that even in the sexual education that's out there, it is largely focused and prioritizes heterosexual relationships. So how are you and other educators working to be more inclusive in regards to sex ed? Yeah, predominantly when I teach on LGBTQ plus relationships, I like to start out by saying queer people have sex just like straight people do. We all have the same parts and we're just wanting to feel pleasure in those parts. Right. sex in the same exact way. But I do think that the idea here is that like most people have sex and most people really, really love to engage in pleasure with another person. And at the same time,

we got to give it to the asexuals. Some people don't. And so like, it's really, really important to like go over that entire spectrum of what that looks and feels like. I think for me too, it's really important to let guests come on my podcast who hold the identities of the story that I'm trying to understand and hear more of. And so a couple of most recent episodes that we've done on Sex Ed with DB, we've had intersex guests on for me to ask them, okay, like tell me about what's going on with you. How is your experience different now from when you were a young person and how do you want it to differ from other young people's intersex experience? And so like really engaging with those experts, if I do not hold that identity is critical to like let the person exactly say their story how they want to.

And so I think like storytelling is really powerful in that way because we're able to really get to know somebody on a deep level without artificially having to make a claim of something if we do not hold that identity. So, yeah, I think ultimately at the end of the day, it's important to show the sex positive aspects of LGBTQ plus identities. And at the same time, I like to teach on, okay, why are LGBTQ plus people more at risk for STIs? And why do more LGBTQ plus people have STIs than straight people? Are they more susceptible to them? No.

Do they face more stigma and discrimination in the healthcare system? Yes. Did they have to teach their doctor sometimes about if they're a trans person, what their healthcare looks like as a trans person? Yes. So it's really, really important to kind of like, to me at least, and it should be to other sex educators to not start from this place of deficit of like, what are queer people lacking? But like, where should we be celebrating them? And what are their

real life experiences that are positive, negative, and everything in between? Totally. What can we be doing as individuals to support a more robust, inclusive sex education in our own communities? And also, how can we have, start having more conversations to break the taboo? You could be doing a lot. If what you're doing right now is nothing, even just one thing that you do today could be a lot and could be something really important. One thing that I would really encourage you to do is just start by some light Googling to kind of see like in your town, what does sex ed look like? Try to figure out on a local level. I know it could be really

scary to be like American politics nationally. I can't make a change in a law. It's like, okay, let's start small. Like where do you live? Type in like whatever town that you live in and like public school sex ed. Just do like five minutes of internet digging. I'm literally, I opened a new tab. I don't even know what Seattle's Chris Beecher is. I'm just curious now. You're doing it right now. And so, you know, depending on the state that you live in, maybe what you'll bring up on the internet is like state policies or local school policies, or maybe it'll bring up, you know, a council person in your town and just start by maybe finding an email for someone and saying, Hey, I'm just, I live here

and I'm curious to see what the standards are for sex education. Because starting there and trying to see if there are any like local organizations, like independent abortion clinics that are in your area or Planned Parenthood is a pretty well-known one. They have funding in a lot of cases, but if you're kind of someone who likes to start out with someone with a big name, you might have a Planned Parenthood in your town. You know, you can kind of ask them like, hey, what's up in our town and how can I get involved? How can I volunteer? So those are like two five-minute task ways. And then the third way that I'll just say is like opening your wallet is like a really, really big way that you can help organizations. You find again in your neighborhood or in your state, a local organization that you can donate to monthly. These organizations really, really

depend on individuals to fund in order to keep up their services and in order to do exactly what they need to do. And so a monthly donation is a really, really fantastic way that you can dedicate, you know, even if it's $10 a month, right? $5 a month, whatever you're able to give in order to sustain the services and the resources that these organizations are giving. And finally, follow my podcast and, you know, support like sex educators like me in order to learn more about what you don't know and delve into topics that you might be interested in. I love that. Daniel, your podcast is amazing. Where else can people find more about you and your work? Yeah. So if you enjoyed this episode and you want to hear, we have over 165 sex ed episodes available on Apple Podcasts,

Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts, just search sex ed with DB. You can find us on Instagram at sex ed with DB podcast and on TikTok at sex ed with DB. And then the final thing that I just want to say is that I would love it if folks who are listening, who are interested in maybe doing what I do, which is sex ed full-time or influencer work or being a sexual health expert, if you're a therapist or a mental health worker and you're just interested in doing your own business, I have a really, really awesome workshop called Building a Profitable Online Sexual Health Brand. profitable online sexual health brand. If you go to my website, sexedwithdb.com slash workshop, you can check it out. And I'd love for you to get in touch with me and work with me where I can teach you more about how I do this work full time. I love it. Thank you for being here and thank you for your work. Thanks so much for having me.

Thank you so much to DB for joining us for this episode. One of my favorites in a long time. So informative. You can go to sexedwithdb.com to learn more about her and her work and her podcast. And we have all of those links in the show notes as well. Thank you for being here. Thank you for engaging in these really important conversations. We appreciate you sharing the episodes as well if this was interesting to you. And we just hope you have a great week. We'll talk to you soon.

Bye, everybody. was interesting to you. And we just hope you have a great week. We'll talk to you soon. Bye, everybody. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer Tamisha Grant, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Khalil DumMoss, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda LeFue, Masha Bakhmikieva, Kaylin Sprinkle, Sumaya Molokurio, and Harvey Carlson. Research by Arielle Johnson, audio engineering by Alyssa Midcalf, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the

entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.