Financial Feminist - 125. The Power of Curiosity in Finances, Relationships, and Life with Scott Shigeoka

Episode Date: November 14, 2023

Curious or indifferent — which best describes the way you approach life? Whether you’ve thought about the answer to this question or not, you’ll want to tune in to today’s episode. In this in-depth conversation, host Tori Dunlap explores the profound connection between curiosity, money, and matters of the heart with Scott Shigeoka, curiosity expert and author of “SEEK: How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World.” Together, they examine the power that curiosity holds in our lives, from navigating difficult conversations to helping overcome fear and understanding other’s experiences. If you’re someone who values human connection and introspection, this episode will put you on the path to living a more inquisitive, enriching life. Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at www.financialfeministpodcast.com Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If there's like one thing you need to know about curiosity, which is the search to understand, is that you're really on this quest of helping people to feel seen and to feel heard and to feel like they actually matter. And that is so, so important and powerful. And on the flip side, when we're not curious about someone, when our romantic partner walks through that door and we're on our phone and we're not curious about them, their day, their lives, what their joys and wonders and suffering is, they can really feel devalued and they can feel not seen, not heard, not appreciated. And it can really fracture our relationships. And it's not just

a romantic partnership, it's relationships with anyone. There's nothing more powerful than starting a podcast with the... Hello, everybody. Welcome to Financial Feminist. Okay, so here's the deal. 1989 Taylor's version comes out tomorrow, and I go feral over the style intro, and I have not been listening to anything but that for the past couple hours, and Kristen can attest to that.

I'm so sorry. So that's what we're listening to in this house in anticipation for 1989 to drop. And we do hope we get a Harry Styles feature. I don't think we will, but we're crossing every finger and crossing every toe to see if we can. Hello. Welcome to the show. If you are an oldie but a goodie, welcome back. If you are new, hi, my name is Tori. I am a New York Times bestselling author. I'm a money expert. I fight the patriarchy by making you rich. And we produce this show to make sure that you have the resources you need to get better with money, but to also show up better in your life, show up better in your community, and use money as a tool of protest against the bullshit systems that exist.

We're so excited to have you. A little bit of housekeeping as always. If you like the show, the best way to support it is subscribing. Literally just clicking one button is the easiest way that you can support us and make sure that we as a women-led, women-focused show can continue producing and continue creating this show for you all. So that's one easy way to support us. And if you have questions, comments, concerns, especially about anything personal finance, if you have questions about your debt or about investing or about saving money or about your weird workplace, you can leave us a voicemail. It's linked down below. And we would love to use that in an upcoming episode and answer your question potentially. We love hearing from you. All right. Excited for today's episode. We are talking today about curiosity. And you're like,

I'm curious. Why do I need to learn how to be curious? What does curiosity have to do with money or feminism or anything like that? And I will say, it is absolutely inextricably linked. And today's guest proves that. Scott Shigeyoka is an internationally recognized curiosity expert, speaker, and the author of Seek, How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World. He is known for translating research into strategies that promote positive well-being and connected relationships around the globe, including at the UC Berkeley's Greater Good Science Center and through his popular courses at the University of Texas at Austin. We get into the importance of embracing

curiosity in all of our relationships and interactions and how we can both be more curious while still holding boundaries around vulnerability, how we can approach our relationships with curiosity, especially when we're talking about money or other subjects that can feel overwhelming. And I think very important in this very fraught political climate, how we can use curiosity to have conversations with people who have varying beliefs and maybe different beliefs than us, especially the people we care about most, like our family and friends. We're really excited for today's episode. It was incredibly impactful. Scott is incredibly good at what they do. And I just can't wait for you to listen. So without further ado, let's get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors.

so i i just moved up from joshua tree i was living in joshua tree california for a couple years that's where i wrote the book and then i fell in love and then uh my boo he is a nurse out in oakland so it's a little bit harder for him to relocate and so after having some conversations which included some money talk conversations, I decided to make the voyage up to Oakland. Yeah. And it was really, really beautiful. It's been, you know, such a, I'm just, I'm in love. It's, we're having a good time up here. It's yeah. It feels we're, we're very communicative, really loving our new home. You know, I've got a lot of community out here in the Bay. So, yeah, I feel very, very good and supported.

Yeah. One of my good friends lived in Oakland for many, many years. And then actually, yeah, COVID was like, okay, we're going to move somewhere else. And so, yeah, has been talking about going back, though. So it's interesting. Oh, where did they go? And where are you at again? I'm in Seattle.

They went to like wine country in California. Like they moved out there and yeah, it made sense for her. But yeah, I'm up in Seattle. I'm in LA and New York quite a bit for work, but I'm born and raised Pacific Northwest and don't plan on leaving anytime soon. Yes. I went to Wazoo. So let's go. Did you really? That's where my partner went. That's amazing. I did. I'm a Coug. Yeah, I'm a Coug, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I was not a Wazoo fan until I met him. I was like, I'm very much more tied to the Huskies. Yeah. More friends who've gone to Huskies. That's where I live, like Seattle. And so, yeah. As someone that's all about bridging the divide and differences, I can see the humanity of both people who root for Huskies and the Kooks.

So let's go. Totally. Well, speaking of that, we're so excited to have you on the show and so excited to talk with you about your work. Can you give us a background on what made you, forgive me, curious about the concept of curiosity? Yeah, absolutely. Well, for me in particular, it's always been like a superpower that I love. Like I remember my dad and I, you know, we like built this tree house in our backyard. He was a roofer and, you know, we just like went to Home Depot and like, actually we also went to

a safe because they have these pallets on the back of their store. They're like, yeah, you can just take them. And we built this amazing tree house. And that just became my sanctuary, my creative space where I could just get curious about myself and the world. And I came up with stories and I brought myself animals up there and orchestrated theater pieces and would later become a playwright and would later create stories of my own and become a writer. But it was also the space. He almost had this anticipatory understanding of what I would need. Because shortly after that, he was in and out of jail. And then he eventually went to prison for a number of years. And that was also the place where I processed a lot of stuff.

Like my difference. What does this mean? My relationship with my dad. Why is he going to jail? I don't understand that. My sexuality. I'm starting to like boys. That's different from my friends. What's going to jail? Like, I don't understand that. Like, what is my sexuality? Like, I'm starting to like boys. Like, that's different from my friends.

Like, what's going on there? So yeah, it also curiosity was this place of just deeply understanding myself and my family and, you know, the people around me. And I just like have used it as this tool just in every aspect of my life, personally and professionally. Like, it's helped me to, you know, get, to get... I got curious about writing. I was like, what are all the writing things, opportunities out in the world when I was working at a Ruby Tuesday in DC post-college? And I just signed up for this class that resonated with me.

And that teacher and I built a really amazing relationship. Her name's Holly. And she was like, you know what? You are an amazing writer. You have a wild personality. You wear fluorescent pink jumpsuits. I love your vibe. I actually am an editor at the Washington Post. I want to give you a job. I want you to write about music. So I'm like, what? So I quit my job at Ruby Tuesday. So it's always been this door opener for me. got into the research and the past five years working at UC Berkeley's Great Against Science Center, I started to realize it's not just a gateway for opportunities. It's a gateway for connection. When we use curiosity, we can connect to others in a really deep way. And that's what I love the most about it. But that's my curiosity origin story is 101. I love that. I think in the book you mentioned, and I think we're all feeling this way, that as much as we can intend to be curious people and live in a curious society, we're kind of in this era of in-curiosity. Can you talk about the flip side of if curious is something that I think we all wish we were, but we're living in this area of in-curiosity, what are its consequences both interpersonally and globally? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, the whole takeaway of curiosity,

if there's like one thing you need to know about curiosity, which is the search to understand, search to understand someone else, yourself, is that you're really on this quest of helping people to feel seen and to feel heard and to feel like they actually matter. And that is so, so important and powerful. And on the flip side, when we're not curious about someone, when our romantic partner walks through that door and we're on our phone and we're not curious about them, their day, their lives, what their joys and wonders and suffering is, they can really feel devalued and they can feel not seen, not heard, not appreciated. And it can really fracture our relationships. And it's not just a romantic partnerships, it's relationships with anyone, you know, the people you work with, the people in your

communities, you know, your family, your friends. So curiosity to me is all about how do we really, you know, enter the space where people are really valued, really seen, really heard in a deep way, not just at the surface level. Like we really get to their stories, to who they are beyond just what we think we are, what our assumptions are telling us about someone and really, really understand them at a deep level. And that's such a connective force.

So that's truly what curiosity is about. It's like, how do we connect? Especially like you said, in this moment of in curiosity, we're divided more than ever. Our Surgeon General in the US, Vivek Murthy, he's just across politics and faith, the next geopolitical crisis that happens. And we're just constantly dehumanizing each other or groups of people who we don't even know. And we know from the research that when you dehumanize people, when you turn away from them with incuriosity and you dehumanize a group of people, it's much easier to inflict hate on them. It's much easier to be numb to suffering and violence that is being inflicted upon them. So really the stance is one of really in order for us to be in solidarity with people, in order for us to really care for people, we got to turn towards them and be curious about them.

that I was thinking about and that our team was thinking about when we were researching this episode and preparing to talk with you, I think that there's just this really interesting feeling that I have realized in the last couple of years that I feel and that a lot of my friends feel, which is that when someone has a difference in opinion to us, it can feel like an attack on our personal identity or an attack on the identity of a person that I love or a person that I support. And I think that that feels so different than maybe even, let's say, 20 years ago or 30 years ago, where it was just like, oh, well, that person has a different political belief than mine, but they're still a good person. I think often, right, if I'm going to be honest, if somebody tells me they support Donald Trump immediately, I'm like, right, if I'm going to be honest, right, if somebody tells me they support

Donald Trump immediately, I'm like, I don't trust you. I don't trust that you will support me and protect the people that I love and that I support. And there's that immediate wall that goes up. And I think vice versa, right? If somebody who is anti-abortion hears that I'm pro, there's probably a wall that goes up for them too. i don't know talk to me about that because i it's not this feeling of oh they have a different opinion than mine and that's fine and i even talk to my parents and my parents are often they'll often say to me when we get in a disagreement they'll go well we have different opinions and that's okay and i often want to shake them and be like if your opinion violates the rights of somebody that's not an opinion that's bullshit

Your opinion violates the rights of somebody. That's not an opinion. That's bullshit. So I don't know. Talk to me about that experience of feeling like my identity or the identity of people I love is almost insulted. Yeah. And here's the thing, right, is that curiosity does have limits and boundaries, right? You know, and there's certain things that we just like fundamentally need to agree on.

And sometimes it's, you know, those things are like justice and like not dehumanizing people and not, you know, recklessly targeting or killing groups of people, right? And a lot of that does come from in curiosity. It's people hold themselves up into their own communities or own beliefs, and they're unwilling to see other perspectives and other opinions. The other thing I'll say is that power and curiosity are really related. So researchers like Emil Bruneau have done studies and have found that the direction of curiosity matters. So if you have more social power in the situation, you should actually be more curious. You should be listening more and trying to understand

what's happening and if you have less social power it's much more important for you to share and to tell your stories and to share your narratives and your thoughts because in the cultures we live in you're often underrepresented and your thoughts and your voices and your stories aren't reflected in culture as much as those who have more power than you. So, and what happens when you're really sophisticated in the direction of curiosity, what happens is both groups walk away feeling closer to one another and they feel like they got something out of it.

But oftentimes the way we design these kinds of spaces is that it's like, okay, you get 50% of the time, I get 50% of the time, we're both gonna leave. And then it's like, you know, I see this in race dialogue groups all the time. And, you know, white students, you walk away feeling like I learned something and I'm going to continue on this journey. But then students of color can sometimes feel like, oh my gosh, like I still like feel, I feel drained. And I feel like there's so many more like questions I

have, or like, I don't feel truly heard. Same is true when like men and women come together and the context is around gender, the patriarchy, right? You can't design spaces in that way because we have to recognize that people are suffering and people with less social power have the microphone less, and it's more important for them to be heard. And you, as someone with more social power, where your stories are often shared in culture, actually need to do more of the curiosity and listening. And we see that in Canada, right? Indigenous people who have been impacted by the residential school system, which is

recent history, last residential school system closed in the 90s. I mean, like most of us listening, a lot of us listening were around when these residential schools were still open in Canada and Indigenous students and their families were completely terrorized by these schools and killed, hurt, psychologically harmed, sexually assaulted. I mean, just like the worst things that you could imagine happened at these quote unquote schools. And what Ryan Moran and other Indigenous leaders did with the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is these stories of survivors need to be heard. And you as a non-Indigenous Canadian needs to sit, be curious, and listen in with intent.

And it might be really, really effing uncomfortable, but it is so important for you to really understand what people have gone through in this country. And that was done in a trauma-informed way, you know, so that you can ensure that people aren't feeling re-traumatized from sharing their stories or they're not vicariously traumatizing others. But also, it is so important for non-Indigenous Canadians to empathize, connect, and recognize how a group of people have been devalued in this country and, you know, in Canada, and in particular for indigenous people. So that's my sort of belief around curiosity. It's not this kumbaya, let's hold hands, civility. And it's also not consensus.

Like, we're not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna change my beliefs for you, you know, like for us, for me to be curious, you know, I, you know, I wouldn't expect, you know, a Christian to change their beliefs when they're getting curious about someone who's Muslim or Buddhist or vice versa, right? you know, Christians to change their beliefs when they're getting curious about someone who's Muslim or Buddhist or vice versa, right? You know, we can still believe the things we do so strongly, but also not lose sight of the humanity of the person who we're getting curious about and hope that over the relationship, you know, that opinions and perspectives will shift as they really open up to the stories of real people and how they're being impacted in consequential ways. I am a massive Brene Brown fan and have researched and learned so much about her

work and vulnerability. And the more I hear you talk, the more I realize like curiosity takes this intense vulnerability and this intense bravery, both to admit what you don't know, to potentially be, you know, especially like I can speak as a white person, right? There's been a lot of come to Jesus moments that white people have had in the past couple of years, especially. And it's like, that's often really scary. And then it's on the flip side, it's very scary to, and it takes a lot of bravery and courage and vulnerability to admit when you do feel hurt or traumatized or something's happened. And so is that why curiosity feels so scary? Because this bravery and this vulnerability

has to be learned and has to be a conscious choice? Yeah. Yeah. I would say that it really depends on the circumstance too, right? So getting curious about your best friend's emotions and experience to their concert recital that they just had. That curiosity maybe feels like lower stakes than something with your parents. Those are more low stakes, curious situations. Yeah, exactly. Where there's not a ton of conflict and tension. And if you're new to the game of curiosity, you haven't practiced it a lot in your life or don't feel as like connected to it. You don't have to start by like jumping right into that conversation with

your parents or go into that Trump rally like I did, right? Like in the same way that, you know, if you're new to running, you wouldn't just like run a marathon on your first day or you want it for new to weightlifting. You wouldn't like try to bench 400 pounds or whatever, you know, the exercises. Curiosity is a muscle and you have to develop it over time. And so you have to practice it by looking inward towards yourself. That's a great place to start. If you got all the people listening who also have a Western talk therapist like I do, that's the whole journey of our relationship, our therapeutic relationship.

He's helping me to get curious about myself and to be like, oh, how did that make me feel? And how did I respond or react in that particular case to that event that happened during moving with my partner? You know, so curiosity can start from an inward perspective before you even move outward to other people. And then when you are ready to go out to other people, you can start with the people closest to you. You know, your romantic partners, your friends, people who you feel really psychologically safe with. Maybe there's a lot of alignment on the deep core beliefs that you have, but there's a couple of things where there's differences. Since we're on Financial Feminist, maybe the ways we think about money or the ways that we spend money. And so you know that you have these core values you share,

but there's differences in this other space. And that's where you can start to practice curiosity that then, you know, beefs up that muscle so that you can take it into, you know, other environments that are, you know, a lot scarier. Because for sure, it is scary. It is scary to come in with curiosity, especially in those really intense circumstances, for sure. Well, and I wanted to round out kind of the, I don't know, intense, you know, curiosity moments you did mention, and we had planned to ask you about going to a Trump rally. What was that like? What were your friends' reaction to that? Tell me why you opted to do that and how that felt and what that experience taught you. Yeah, totally. And first of all, if you can't see me, I'm Asian American, I'm progressive, I'm queer.

I usually dress very flamboyantly. Right now I have a colorful blouse top, but I usually am in pink jumpers. I love dressing up and expressing myself through fashion. And so it was important for me when I went on this trip for 12 months around the country, going to Trump rallies and churches and meeting people in very different sort of regions and places in the country, that I didn't give up any part of who I am, that I didn't hide parts of who I am, that I just genuinely shared everything that was truthful about me. Because as someone who's queer, and even as someone who's Asian American, I'm tired of hiding. I want to be known for who I am. And that is beautiful. I know my worth. And I'm just going to come and start from that perspective. So that's what I did when I went to the rally in Minnesota.

In this case, I saw the sea of red shirts and hats and the big jumbotrons. And I was scared. I was scared, especially when your friends see you and then they see the route you're going on. And they're like, maybe you should bring a knife or a spray. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know if you can trust like what's about to throw down. And they're coming from a place of, you know, feeling their own pain and seeing the suffering that they've seen unfold in the country. Right. And they're coming from a place of fear, but also protection. They want to, they want me to be safe. But I went there, I didn't arm myself because I just didn't think that that was going to be the smart decision for me personally. And I just like went up to people and I started talking to folks in line and I just told them, Hey, you know, I hear a lot of stories about who you are from like the

news and like social media, but I'm deeply curious. I want to just understand you. I want to understand where you're coming from and why you're voting in this way and what your life is like, because I don't have a picture of that. I don't. And surprisingly, people weren't on the offense. People were down to share information. Maybe they had me and I picked up a little bit of like, but why are you actually here? That's interesting that you're here. But the way in which I approached it with curiosity versus saying, my ideas and my beliefs are better than yours. I don't understand why you're voting for this person. Like, what is wrong with it? You know, like, that's just not going to turn into a potentially connective experience for both of us. And what was interesting was that the more

that I listened to them and genuinely came from a place of understanding, the more that they started to ask me questions. And they're like, well, why are you here? And where are you from? And then I started talking about my own identities, my own experiences, what it's like to grow up in Hawaii, et cetera. And that was a beautiful exchange of understanding that I feel like we don't often get to in the current political arena because we're constantly canceling and shutting each other down. So we were waiting in line. I'm having all these interesting conversations. And I'm realizing that my stereotypes of who a Trump voter is, because at the time it was,

oh, they must be illiterate or uneducated or they don't care about the things that I care about. And as I started to talk to them, I realized, oh my gosh, some of them have advanced degrees and some of them are humanitarians and work in nonprofits. And one of them actually that I talked to really cared about climate change. And I was like, what? I thought y'all weren't down with that or were in denial of that. And I started to see the individuality of each person. I talked to probably around 15-ish people there in line because you wait for hours before you get into the arena. It's like a sporting event or Black Friday shopping or something like that. And we went deep and I heard stories of how they felt othered by their girlfriend's friends who thought they were dumb or stupid and they would hear these comments behind

their back. And I was just remembering the moments when I felt othered and just how it made me feel. It made me feel angry and alone and actually hardened my beliefs and made me not want to connect with those people who had those views on me. And yeah, I think I just felt a lot of pain and anger and sadness and fear for where the country was headed. And, you know, those are things that, you know, I would say I feel too. And many people who I'm more ideologically aligned to also feel. But also I went into the arena, it was like the NBA finals, there's all these signs, there's all this chanting and cheering, all these speakers come up,

Trump finally gets up. He's just saying the same shit that I've heard over and over again. And I was just like, I could not, that I couldn't take. Because I had to separate this person onto this leader who was galvanizing the sort of movement and the individuals who were voting for him. Those are two separate sort of entities that I had to sort of remember because I always just looped them all into one sort of monolithic group. But I had to be like, no, these are also individuals too that have families and deep cares and values just like I do, who I'm sitting next to. So I ended up leaving the Trump rally early.

This, like, group of Trump voters, like, were leaving, too. And I was like, wait, but the person you came to see is, like, talking right now. Like, why are you leaving early? And they're like, we're trying to get out of traffic. And I was like, okay, like, great. So we walked out together. There was a sea of counter-protesters. And, you know, they were just, like, holding signs and singing songs, like, things that

I've done before being on the front lines of different movements and one of the guys from the counter protester group shouted at us and said fuck you racist get out of our town or get out of our city and and i was just like i was just so like depleted from energy i like couldn't even say anything the person next to me the trumpeter was like i'm not'm not a racist. And in my head, I was just like, bro, like I, my, my views are way more similar to yours likely than the people I'm walking out with. Also, you don't know anything about me. And you're like shouting this thing at me that sort of made me remember all of those, you know, those things that I've been told of like Ching Chong and get out of our country and where you actually from. And it was just like, wow, like, I feel so othered by people I feel so connected to. And so it just, you know,

I think what I saw was this rupture that's happening in our country, where we're really not seeing people for who they are. We're dehumanizing people. And we're lobbying such harsh words or actions on one another that's really harmful. And I want to see us move in a different direction as a country that's healthier and where our well-being is positive, not negative, and our relationships aren't severed, but they're connected. So it was an intense experience, but learned a lot, definitely. Talk to me about the framework that you developed, the dive framework. Yeah.

So just like, you know, exercising a muscle, you know, and you need this set of exercises, like when you go to the gym. I wanted to make sure that folks who were interested in curiosity have the same access to that understanding. So I created this motto, it's called DIVE, and it's an acronym. So D-I-V-E, they stand for the four core muscles of deep curiosity. So D is to detach, which is to let go of your ABCs, your assumptions, biases, and certainty. So detaching is all about, we have assumptions that we hold about other people and who they are because we know their politics, their faith, their gender, whatever, you know, and we have to interrupt that. You know, one of the practices is called back that ass up and ask the shirt for assumption. It's like, we got to

back that ass up. We got many assumptions and we got to back that ass up. And we got to see and pressure test and validate and interrupt those assumptions that often are over-exaggerated, untrue, or just more nuanced than we think they are, right? So that's what D is all about. And it's also about letting go of certainty. There's so much that's in our culture that's like, you got to have all the answers and you need to shout those answers to be heard and seen. And that's what makes you a valued contributor in society. When the truth is sometimes the questions are way more interesting and way more powerful for us in our relationships and in the work we do. And we need to really

prioritize this idea that we you know, we got to be humble. You know, we don't have all the answers. When our partner asks us something about our emotions around a certain purchase that we have, if we haven't reflected on it and we don't know the answer, you know, it's okay for us to say, I don't know, but, you know, I need to reflect on that. I need to, you know, really think that through, you know, but I need to reflect on that. I need to really think that through. And that encourages reflection and thoughtfulness. You have the exercise of having people reflect on their first money memory. Having the ability to have reflection and thoughtfulness and space before you respond because you've detached is so key. And instead of just blurting out the first

thing that comes to your mind that might be harmful for that conversation or that relationship. I is intend, which is to create the mindset and setting for curiosity. So where you talk about things matter, the physical setting. If you want to come super curious and you're having a money talk conversation or you're talking about the relationship you're in and some challenges you're going through, maybe like doing it on the subway when there's like a ton of people around you and like you're trying to switch trains, like maybe not the best time to bring it up, like from a physical setting perspective, like maybe there's a better space

where you feel like you can both be psychologically safe and vulnerable and express all your emotions without the pressures of people around you, right? So setting is important, but also the mindset, actually visualize, like what kinds of questions around you, right? So setting is important, but also the mindset. Actually visualize what kinds of questions are you going to ask? Do you have all the information you need for that conversation that you can bring into it? So many people I talk to have really big conversations about money, for instance, and they just come into the conversation,

they launch into it without kind of doing the thoughtful preparation of really reflecting on their own views, you know, thinking about what they want to share in that conversation. So mindset is so, so important. V is value, which is to see the dignity of the person you're being curious with. And so, you know, like I said, when you dehumanize someone, it is much harder to be curious about them. It is also so much easier to hate them and to want to inflict harm on them because they're not human, they're less than. And so the same is true even in our day-to-day relationships. We might not realize it, but there's these little things that we're doing that might be dehumanizing our partner, for instance. Let's say our kid. Our kid has a baseball game and they're like, oh my gosh, like I didn't do a good job at that baseball game.

You know, dad, like I feel really bad about it. Our inclination might be to say, no, you did super great. Like look at all those other people on the field. You did just as good as them. And you, your team won and you know, they're everything, everything, you're great son. Like you're really good at like this, this sport. But what you're doing is you're great, son. You're really good at this sport. But what you're doing is you're invalidating their experience and their perspective, right? You're saying that the way you see the world, child, is not accurate. And in fact, I'm going to tell you the complete opposite and invalidate the emotions that you're feeling because I'm trying to fix you. I'm trying to feel less comfortable about your sadness or your feelings of failure. And that person, that child doesn't feel seen or heard. They feel

dehumanized. They're like, well, then almost like gaslit, right? It's like, wow, like, I guess I'm wrong about this perspective and opinion. So we don't mean to do that to our child, to our partners, to like the people we work alongside. But sometimes we do do that. You know, like, I feel like I messed up on that project. No, you did great. Don't worry. You're killing it out there. When you could be saying, tell me more. I want to understand your humanity. I want to understand the real emotions you're having about this situation. And that is a bridge for connection, right? It doesn't just cut off the conversation or tell them that what they're experiencing is invalid.

And then the last piece is E, embrace, which is to welcome the hard times in our lives, because that's when we need to be curious the most actually is when, you know, we're going through grief or loss or heartbreak, you know, or we, you know, had a financial woe or we've experienced a layoff. Like these are the moments when we really need to get curious, you know, understand what is it that we really want and need, you know, who are the people that are around us that are going to support us in this moment? What are the things that I can ask for from them, if at all? That's what's really going to help us to move through these really hard moments.

And sometimes they're not negative. They're like positive things, you know, but still challenging, like welcoming a new child into the family or getting married, you know married. Those are things that still require your curiosity. How do I want to show up in this marriage? How do I want to value my partner? What are my boundaries in this marriage? Curiosity is so, so important in these hard moments. And we know from the research that it actually reduces anxiety and fear in these really, really scary moments. Even something as scary as death, right? End-of-life doulas and palliative care staff, they use curiosity to help people move through

and reduce their end-of-life anxiety by asking questions like, what is the life you've lived? And what's the legacy you're giving to the next generation? And what relationships are important to you? And how would you like to die with dignity? And it feels so counterintuitive, but when you're curious about the things you fear and are anxious about, you actually reduce it. That's why exposure therapy works for phobias. You get curious, you're afraid of spiders. Well, look at the photo of a spider and then see it in the glass box. And oh my God, if you're going to be one of those people, hold the spider. I don't know if I'm there yet on my phobia journey, but getting closer and closer

into contact with what you fear, the groups of people you fear, that spider you fear, that conversation about money you don't want to talk about because you're afraid of how it's going to go. Well, actually getting more curious about it is going to reduce those feelings of fear and anxiety. And that's what embrace is all about. So dive, detach, intend, value, embrace. And if there's any communication coaches out there, I'm trying to figure out how to like shorten that explanation, but you know, cause it's, there's a lot there, but yeah, I've done a lot of thinking around it. No, it's fantastic. I was just going to compliment you on it. It's very detailed and it's very helpful. Also with spiders, everything changed for me when i read

a tweet that said spiders are just little grandmas trying to knit oh my god that's so real though because they oh i love that they're just little grandmas trying to just like i literally i have one right outside that's been hanging out and i'm just just like, okay, go ahead. You knit, girl. Like you keep knitting. You're doing great. I love that. And what stories in dominant culture told us that we should fear spiders and snakes, you know, right? Like we got to be keyed in and curious to that. Oh, snakes are a different thing. All snakes need to die. For sure. For sure. For sure. We're all on our own journey story. If somebody has the grandma's knitting version of snakes, I would love to hear it. But yeah, I've been very vocal on this show about my fear of eels and snakes, and I don't like either. So yeah, give me the grandma trying to knit version of both of those things.

More to come. An update on the next episode. episode yeah we'll get back to you on that yeah perfect i didn't know this but dopamine is created when we're in a state of curiosity so by that curiosity is not only good for us at a societal level but also from a health perspective so basically so when we're curious we release dopamine in our brains and the reward, the motivation rewards that's in our brain. And essentially what that means is, you know, it's also called a happy hormone. It's the neurotransmitter that we release when we have sex, which I love personally, or like when we eat a tasty, delicious meal, right? We release dopamine. It gives us pleasure. It gives us this feeling of that feels it's so good it gives us that

tingliness right and the reason it does that is because it wants to incentivize that behavior yes like eat this delicious food get the nutrients like have the energy yes have you know evolutionary at least like have the sex like because we know that that helps you to you know keep the species going but also like there's all these other psychological and physical benefits to doing it if that's what you're down with. So there's so, because shout out to all my asexuals out there, there's all ways of thinking about any of these topics. But dopamine being released when you're being curious is actually really cool because when folks, I just did this interview from a dating columnist who was like, we were talking

about it. And I was like, the one advice I give to people when they're going on dates is be interested, not interesting. Right. And to ask questions. And if you're 40 minutes into the first date and you haven't asked a single question, you've been talking about me, me, me, me, me, because you're trying to glow up yourself, which, you know, I'm all for like, if you, if you don't love yourself, how are you gonna love anyone else? Like RuPaul, like, yes, like love yourself and scream that to the world. But also like be interested in the person you're on a date with because that's going to create that connection and make them glow up and make them feel like they matter and are seen and heard. Right. And so be interested, not interesting, and know that by you doing that, it's going to feel so pleasurable. It's going to feel like

you're eating a delicious bite of food. It's going to feel like you're having sex. And that's the same as truth with curiosity. And you feel it. When you are like, wait, Taylor Swift and Beyonce made how much on their last tour? And then you start going into the rabbit hole of figuring that out. It's exciting. And you're learning things. Or when you're in a conversation with someone and you're asking questions, they're asking questions back to you and you're just mad. You're just like, oh my God, I see you. Same, same, same. That feels good. It feels really, really pleasurable. And sometimes it's because we have this fear like, oh my gosh, curiosity can feel really daunting at times. Just like it's daunting to go to the gym. Sometimes

I'm like, oh my gosh, do I really want to get there? When you actually get there and you're there in the gym or you're there out running or, you know, you're there getting curious, it feels so good. And you're like, I'm so thankful that that's the way that I showed up because it's, it's really, really good for you. Not just from the dopamine perspective, but for your relationships. We also know from the research, curious people are happier people. We know from the research that curious people have higher levels of life satisfaction, more fulfilling relationships. Makes sense. You look at the happy married couple that's been together for many, many years, decades, they're consistently curious towards they're constantly engaged with the world. And in fact, we know that the minute you stop getting curious is when you chop off years of your lifetime.

There's actually evidence to show that you being less curious increases your mortality. So curiosity is literally a lifeline, but it's also one of our best companions that can join us along the journey of life. And that's what I love about it. I know there's people who are older in my life who are curious. And frankly, they're just more fun to be around. They look and feel a lot younger. They're just happier. And I have older people in my life who are not very curious.

And they're not as fun to be around. They're not as kind and generous. And their energy is just different. And so, yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. Right. When you're incurious, you're like, I know everything. All my beliefs are right. You'll understand when you're older because I've learned everything that I needed to know. Wow, that is arrogance. And that doesn't feel communal. It's not friendly. It's not generous, like all these things you're saying. And folks who have that wonder, why don't I have those deep relationships

with my kids? Or why aren't these friends coming around and hanging out with me all the time? Well, it's like, practice a little bit more curiosity and bring that into your life and see how that transforms the ways that people feel around you. I mean, it's so incredible. People will start to feel valued and appreciated and they'll want to see you more and they'll want to be around you more. Yeah. The research shows in the workplace, when you have more curiosity and more intellectual

humility as a leader, you're actually seen as more friendly, communal, likable, and more competent. And that one's important because a lot of people fear that when they say things like, oh, I don't know something, or I'm not sure about that, or, oh, I have questions about it, they think that it makes them look weak or incompetent. But the truth is, it's actually not the case. People actually have more confidence in you because they recognize that you don't have this arrogance and that we're going to do it because we've always done it this way. That's really, really helpful. Talk to me about curiosity as an intellectual pursuit versus curiosity as a heart-based

pursuit. Yeah. So a lot of people think about curiosity as I'm going to fill up the knowledge in my head, like I was saying with the Taylor Swift Beyonce rabbit holes we get into, which are great and also helpful for trivia. We need that in our lives. And bring it down from the head to the heart and see curiosity as more than just extracting information and see it as a force for connection. That's what everything we're talking about is. It's to see us getting curious as a way to connect with one another. I wanted to talk a lot about money stuff

because I know that's an interest of y'all's audience. And that's why I listened to the show too. And I thought about this in the context of relationships. When we want to talk about money, but we have shame around it, or we feel like we aren't leveled up in the same way as our partners, or we're fearful of where that's going to head, right?

We can reframe that to us getting curious about our partners and us talking about money and understanding the emotions that our partners have about money and what they value and their relationship to money and their money trauma. And it is so, so helpful. And it's a gateway to us understanding them and connecting with them. So, you know, see those conversations as a way to get to know your partner even more and to see more of them and for you to help them feel like appreciated and like they matter. And same for them towards you, right? When they start asking you questions about your relationship with money, oh my gosh,

you start to feel more seen and appreciated, even if sometimes that doesn't line up, right? The quest is about understanding and using that as a force for connection. And I think it's also a tool for us to look inward too in relationships, right? Like, you know, you had a great episode I listened to recently on the red flags, financial red flags that we can see in partners. Well, if you're never curious and checking in on like what your own boundaries are, the relationship you're in, and you're not actually reflecting on it and being constantly curious, you might, you know, realize two years later and come awake and be like oh my gosh like that whole time you know those are all red flags but you weren't attuned to it you weren't aware

to it you you weren't curious about what was happening right so so it's even for your self protection and preservation and connecting to yourself it is such an important tool so important well and i love that you brought up financial because of course i was obviously going to ask you about that like you it's mentioned something that really stuck out when we were talking about you coming on. You said after our basic needs are met, conversations about money are really conversations about feelings and values. And I could not agree more. I talk about this a lot on the show and my work in the book. We think money is about math. It's not. It's not about math. It's not about, you know, numbers in a spreadsheet. We think money is about math. It's not. It's not about math. It's not about

numbers in a spreadsheet. It's not really about compound interest, even though I talk about that all the time. It's about your emotions. It's about how you feel. It's about your trauma. It's about your narratives that you've been believing about money. And yeah, it's about how vulnerable and curious are you willing to be in order to better your relationship with money, to better your relationship with your partner as you manage money? So how can we bring curiosity into these financial conversations? And you've answered this a bit, but I'm thinking about, yeah, like sitting down talking about money is like the number one thing we avoid. We'll talk about any other uncomfortable topic. I've said this before, of course, but sex, death, politics, religion,

we are statistically more likely to talk about those things before we'll talk about money. So how can we get brave and curious and vulnerable enough to actually start having conversations and actually start looking at our bills and our bank account statements? Totally. Yeah, I think it's when you come to the table together and you first start by norming that conversation and saying, you know, let's remember that this is our goal. Not for us to share our own perspective or opinions or how we differ or how my beliefs, you know, clash with yours, but I'm just here to listen and understand you. And I think that's helpful to start with and having scripts, you

know, that you can take into that conversation. Like, tell me more is like a really, really good one. It's like, wow like wow okay so you would you spend six hundred dollars on a lamp and you're like my you know your first reaction if you don't have that script is like that is way too much money for a lamp right if you but that then makes them feel like they don't matter that they're unheard and you know you're you're missing out on so much interesting context that lives beneath that so instead you could say oh a six hundred dollar purchase for a lamp like Like, tell me more, like, why is that important to you? Like, what is it about that lamp, you know, that you would be

willing to spend that? Oh, well, like, you know, my dad had that, you know, growing up and like, you know, he's obviously, you know, like no longer with us. And like, I have a, you know, I want that to be in the house because it's going to be my way of remembering him. Whoa, that's a very different, you know, sort of context around that lamp that you didn't have moving into that conversation. Or it could just be like, I mean, it's pretty and I like pretty things. And that is also valid. But you still now know what's underneath the desire to purchase a $600 lamp that you wouldn't have if you immediately reacted with your own bias and your own perspective. So that's a script I like to give people is like, tell me more. I think the other thing that's really, really helpful as well is who else? It's that you both

are in a relationship, but you don't have to just solve every problem on your own. You can go out and almost do your own exploratory voyages to understand how people talk about money. And by you going out and having those kinds of conversations, not only is it like, whoa, wait, you experienced that too. Same, same. Makes you feel so emotionally connected to your friends or your families or whoever you're

talking to about it. But it also gives you tools and techniques and new scripts that you can bring into the conversation. That's really interesting. Like for instance, I just did this and I heard from a friend that one partner who earns a little bit less pays for all of the sort of living expenses like the rent and the food. And then the person who makes more puts it all into investments under both people's names so that everyone benefits. And that's a different sort of mechanics than you pay 70%, I pay 30. Equity in a relationship for finances can exist in a number of ways. And the reason why they got to that is because one partner was feeling emasculated by having to pay such a small amount. And that's their own journey that they're going on. But as a way to circumvent that and to respond to that, and for him to feel like he matters and that his emotional context and wherever he's at,

meeting him where he's at, that's the solution that they had. And I think it's great, especially when both names are being, you know, you know, supported. You talk a lot about this, like, make sure like your names are on the things, you know, I won't go into details there. But that's, I think, I think having those kinds of scripts, and again, thinking about the setting you're in, and your mindset that you're coming into it, have you eaten? Like, are you well rested before you have this conversation? You know, what's the thing that's happening the next day, or that you're just coming out of it was a really chaotic day, you know, like, you just took your dog dog to the vet and it's been wild. Ooh, maybe if this is your first time doing a money talk, let's reschedule it. Let's find a moment where we can feel spacious to talk about it. So those are all things to

consider when you enter into these kinds of conversations. And just know we're human and it's going to be messy and sometimes you're going to get things wrong. So the power of an apology and the power of forgiveness, you know, when we do mess up, when we do react and say, what the fuck a $600 lamp, hell no, you know, so sorry. That was not the right way for me to respond in that moment. Like, please tell me more. Like I want to, you know, that I was just getting ahead of myself. Like I was having a reaction. My emotions are valid, but I also want to understand where you're coming from. Right. I love that. And I think it's really, it's so interesting when, again, you're talking about anything that is, and I keep saying the word vulnerability today, but like anything that

feels vulnerable, like I, then that's kind of what I was trying to say before is it takes a certain amount of buy-in like you have to be present in order to be curious as opposed to a what the fuck are you doing spending that kind of money like that's a knee-jerk reaction as opposed to a tell me more about that like that's a different kind of reaction so that curiosity takes a lot of effort. And ultimately, of course, it makes us feel better. It makes our relationships better. But we do have to like consciously choose it. Yeah, exactly. And that's why I think it's so important to key in, you know, are you hungry? Like, did you like have a like spacious day today,

you know, like just to set yourself up for success, you know? But yeah, I think, day today, you know, like just to set yourself up for success, you know, but yeah, I think, yeah. And stay connected to this is about connection and remember that it's a pleasurable experience and know that like, you can say no, you know, you might just get tired midway through or lose energy. Kind of like I did at the Trump rally. And you just be like, curiosity overload. This is too much for me. And you can express your boundaries in that way and that's so so important i talk i have a whole chapter in seek about boundaries because it's so important because just because you're curious doesn't mean that you deserve to have the answer right like i talk about in the book a story of a little girl with a prosthetic leg and there was a little boy on a

play date and you know he was like really curious about prosthetics and you know wanted to touch it and wanted to ask a lot of questions to her and And, you know, her and her mom were like, no, like this is a boundary. Like, we're not going to let you do that. That's going to infringe on her, you know, well-being and her sense of safety and autonomy. And really sometimes curiosity can come from an ableist place, from a place of wanting to get information about someone that you actually don't deserve. That's why there's legal protections over the kinds of questions you can ask in the hiring process, for instance, right? No, I'm going to be the person that's in power of my own narrative, and I will let you know when I feel comfortable to share something. It goes in both directions, right? But you asking and having a built relationship where there's trust and where there is that consent baked in, then it creates an opportunity for sharing and for depth. But you always got to have that grace and that compassion to be like, okay, you're not ready. Totally fine. That's something that we'll work on later. But at a certain point, you can be really, really curious in a relationship.

And I read about a mother-daughter relationship and the daughter's trying so hard and is investing a lot into the relationship with her mom. But it's just like every time she leaves a conversation, she feels harmed and feels like disregarded and devalued. And after years of it and talking to her therapist, she's like, all right, no contact. I got to do that. I got to do that. I'm sorry.

So, and that's hard, but you got to do it sometimes because, you know, you have to protect yourself, your loved ones, your family, family your children like whoever it is that are also being impacted by that toxic relationship right so boundaries are so important i'm not like we must at all costs like be curious you know like that no like that's not real totally yep couldn't agree more with that it is a balance of curiosity and boundaries most definitely um ariel our researcher came up with this question we loved it what is the thing humans have learned through curiosity that you're most confused by and she said i am personally confused and i am as well how we learned how to eat half the foods we now eat like how did we figure that out

that you think humans learn through curiosity that you're super confused by? Oh, my gosh. That's so interesting. I love that question. And I'm so curious about the answer to that one. For me, I think it's, I don't know. Maybe it's just the time we're in and there's just so much geopolitical crises going on and i just don't understand how so many people can be down with dehumanization like i just can't wrap wrap my head around how we can be so okay with terror

and just like you know innocent people like dying it's just like, and just like, and violence and just like, and like praising and be like, yes, this is for the defense of our country. And I was like, or like, yes, we must do this because we have to, it's just like, it's like, whoa, it's like, so, you know, and there's a lot of disparate philosophies. And I've, you know, really tried to sink my teeth into so many because I've learned through my own curiosity of seeing the groups of people that are expressing, especially oppressed people that are expressing the need and the desires for violence as a way to be seen and heard and as a way to work towards liberation. But just generally, it's hard for me to wrap my head around that. And I just don't know

where does that come from? And I'm really struggling with that right now. I think just hopping on social media and I'm just like, wow, y'all, I think, just hopping on social media. And I'm just like, wow, y'all, I can't believe some of the things that the people I love and know really well are saying about groups of people, some of them who have never even traveled to the region of the world that they're talking about. And I'm just like, I don't know anyone who's Palestinian or Israeli. And I'm just like, in this case, and it's going to be another conflict, I'm sure, by the time this airs and, you know, it feels like there's a constant, you know, cycle of conflict that keeps happening in our country. And that's why I wrote

this book. I'm like, I'm going to do my one little seed planting and try to make that a sunflower and hopefully like help point towards the direction of the sun and the light. And just like where real growth and, you you know real protection of people and planet is which is what i believe in so yeah but i struggle with that i don't know what about you what is the thing how would you answer that question you have a very uh important capital i important like prophetic answer i'm over here like how did we figure out that kissing felt good like i'm gonna put like my tongue in your mouth like how did we figure that out yeah yeah yeah like i must have just been like same thing with sex how did we determine

what went where and what holes yeah like yeah yeah yeah how did that happen um yeah i also have what ariel is like i i think about this all the time this is like a deep cut into my brain but i think about probably at least once a week how did we look at a tree and decide that that was going to be called a tree or like you know whatever language you speak like how did we decide what things are called the other thing for me is i often wonder again this is like a once a week occurrence i'm curious does um everybody see color the way i do like just like i can look at a tree and say like that's green and it's this particular green to me but i've never seen that tree through anybody else's eyes like literally physical eyes so i don't know if you also say see the same green

i do oh my god because this is the only reality i've ever known so or at least that i'm conscious of this is a lot of shit that goes on in my brain oh my god well also you're seeing this shit that goes on in my brain like i'm like it's like it's uh like that intensity of my question is like literally it's like like he must be fun at parties they must be fun at parties you didn't mean it's like because i'm like i'm the one that's like yeah but also i think i want to bring more i think that way too i also just like i am also curious about how we decided that yeah fingers can go in people's holes and that tongues can go in mouths and that will feel good so oh my gosh like where did i learn that oh

my gosh like now i'm on this own like like, meta, like, interior curiosity journey on, like, where I is one of those that's like not obviously necessary to sexual intercourse right but somebody figured out at some point that that was interesting to do right so i'm not sure i'm not sure we got here and does everyone who kisses actually like it you know what i mean or are they just feeling like they have to do this is something that they like sure and you know i that's what i also i mean i love kissing personally but i know that some of my like dearest don't aren't down with it and they do it and i'm like but is it oh do you do it because you know that's what your partner wants and like you're just showing up and they're like oh i don't know if they like it and it's like oh well okay like do you do it because the media like the first i think sexual act we all see

in the media is like somebody kissing somebody else yeah this is this is down the rabbit hole yeah i love ariels too i think about that a lot of like somebody had to realize at one point that that mushroom you couldn't eat and it was because you know dave dave died after he ate that mushroom well we can't eat that mushroom again. Totally. Oh, my gosh. People had to die in order for us to understand what food was edible and what food wasn't. Or like, oh, wow, like that mushroom takes you on a journey, y'all.

Like, you know, Garrett Brad, like, we're going to meet over here. Like, you know, go on that journey together. Dave's been tripping balls for days. Like, we're going to go on an an eight hour experience and you're going to see the world in a way you haven't. This is pre airplanes. You also were like, we're traveling dimensionally here. Um, yeah, right. So good. So good. Scott, my last question for you, what is one way that somebody can be more curious today, even if it's just in a small way? somebody can be more curious today, even if it's just in a small way?

You know, I, you know, so I teach and I talk to so many young people all the time and I witness this like disconnection to nature a lot with some folks. And I think getting out into nature is such a beautiful way to reignite curiosity. You know, one of my friends, Dr. Keltner, he calls it an awe walk. Walk for 10 minutes around the block and just be in awe of everything around you, like the birds, the trees, that flower that's coming out of that sidewalk, your neighbor who's creating their little dope front porch, flower setup. Just be in awe on that walk. Or you can even get out into nature. And I just went camping with my godchild and my two besties and my partner, and know, just be in awe on that walk or, you know, you can even get out into nature. And I just went camping with my, my godchild and my two besties and my partner. And we're just like getting so curious about the mist and like how that all works.

And, you know, we're just like looking at every acorn and the shapes of it. And, you know, I think it's just like a fun, beautiful way to ground into, into curiosity that, that I think most people are down with. I mean, you don't got to go on a full-on hike or full-on camp if that's not your thing, you know, but you know, you can like hang out at the park and have like, have some mushrooms, you know, like, you know, have, you know, some cheese and wine and just like be in awe and in presence with, you know, the people around you and nature around you. Because I think a lot of people think about curiosity in the conversational sense with

other people. And they think that's the only way that they can strengthen the muscle. But as I read about in Seek, there's so many other ways, like getting into your body through movement. I call it body journaling. It's like journal with your body, which is what I did on Tuesday to Janelle Monáe. You know what I mean? Or you can get out into nature. That's a great way to tap into your curiosity too. You can explore the world or your interests, and that's a great way to activate curiosity. That's going to serve you in your more interpersonal or reflective or relationship journeys too. So yeah, get out into nature and be curious about everything that you experienced there.

Notice, notice all of it unfolding. No mushrooms required. You can just do that on a good old glass of water. I love that. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your work. It's so interesting. And this is going to be one of those episodes that I go back and listen to when it comes out. Even though I just heard this whole thing, I'm like, I'm going to need it again in a couple weeks. So tell us where we can find out more about you and tell us about your book. Absolutely. So you can learn more about my book, Seek, How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World at seekthebook.com. Go to your indie booksellers, y'all. Call those bookstores,

go into them. That's a great place to buy them. Let's support small businesses. That's what I'm all about, these indie bookstores. That was my life growing up. I was like that kid on the little stepstool, reading books in the aisles with the fantasy books all hovering over you. Let's support these businesses. They're awesome. And then also also you can find me online on the interwebs, at Scott Shigeoka. I actually respond to DMs. I come through, tell me your thoughts on this episode. If you read the book, tell me about like what you liked, what you didn't.

Like, I will stay curious and I will stay in that conversation. I want to hear from you. That's like why I became an author was so I can connect with people in real ways. Like, that's what I love the most. And I was like, whoa, I can get paid for that. Cool. So please reach out. And yeah, thank you so much for holding this space and for your time and for the ways in which

you're supporting so many people. I feel so, so humbled to be like a listener of this podcast and to then like be on the other side. It's actually like really surreal. And so, yeah, I'm just excited to share some thoughts and hopefully it was helpful for someone that was listening in. I so appreciate that. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much to Scott for joining us for this episode. You can grab their book, Seek, How Curiosity Can Transform Your Life and Change the World at any place that sells books, but especially your local independent bookstore. Thank you so much for being here, Financial Feminist. We appreciate you sharing the show if it impacted you, especially this episode. Maybe this is a perfect opportunity to spark a conversation with somebody in your life about curiosity

and about vulnerability and about bravery and about just becoming a better, more connected society. Thank you so much for being here as always, and we'll talk to you soon. connected society. Thank you so much for being here as always. And we'll talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer Tamisha Grant, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Sophia Cohen, Khalil Dumas, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, Amanda Lefeu, Masha Bakhnikeva, Kaylin Sprinkle, Sumaya Molok-Rio, and Harvey Carlson. Thank you. to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests,

and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.