Financial Feminist - 149. The Dark Side of Women's Professional Athletics with Olympian Kara Goucher

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

TW: SA, ED, abuse The world of professional athletics is often glamorized, but behind the scenes, women athletes face a myriad of challenges and inequalities. In today's episode of the Financial Feminist, host Tori Dunlap sits down with American long-distance runner and two-time Olympian, Kara Goucher to shine a light on the darker side of women's professional athletics. Kara, a trailblazer in her own right, shares her raw and unfiltered experiences navigating the complexities of the sports industry as a female athlete. From unequal pay and sponsorship opportunities to the stigma surrounding motherhood in sports, Kara delves into the systemic issues that continue to plague women athletes. She reveals the pressures she faced to downplay her role as a mother in order to be taken seriously in her athletic career and reflects on the disparities in media representation between male and female athletes. Additionally, Kara opens up about her decision to leave a major sponsor like Nike to join a smaller woman-owned company, highlighting the financial risks and rewards of prioritizing values over profit. Join this eye-opening conversation as Kara shares her insights on the importance of speaking out against injustice and advocating for change within the sports industry. Whether you're a sports enthusiast or simply passionate about gender equality, this episode offers valuable perspectives on the challenges and triumphs of women in professional athletics. Tune in to gain a deeper understanding of the realities faced by female athletes and discover how we can work together to create a more equitable and inclusive future for athletes of all genders." Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at: https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/149-the-dark-side-of-womens-professional-athletics-with-olympian-kara-goucher/.  Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz. Get Kara’s book: The Longest Race Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

A quick content warning before we get into today's episode. Kara's story discusses sexual assaults, eating disorders, and abuse. If that is something that you might find triggering, go ahead and skip this episode. And then we'll see you back here next week. Thanks. If I go down, I'm replaceable. There's a million other athletes that want to be Olympians. At the time, there was no safe sport. There was no one from my sports governing body that I could go to. Also, my governing bodies, their biggest source of income comes from Nike, my sponsor at the time. So even if I said to them, this is happening, I don't know where to go. They don't want to ruffle feathers with Nike.

That's where the majority of funding comes from, from USATF. So I really felt like I cannot even spend any time thinking about this because there is no, there's no situation here in which I get to continue on as me and living out my dreams. My life is over. It's just over. Hello, Financial Feminists. Welcome to the show. Very excited to see you as always. Thank you for being here. My name is Tori. I am a money expert. I'm a New York Times bestselling author, and I fight the patriarch who've been making you rich. And if you're an oldie, buddy goodie, you already knew that. Welcome back. Today's episode is probably one of the most powerful episodes we've ever done. I used to joke that I cry at every single

episode and then I guess I hardened up a bit because I usually now get to three episodes without crying. But both of us actually, both our guests today and me couldn't get through this talk without Her story is just incredibly phenomenal. She's one of the most powerful woman I think I've ever had the pleasure of talking to and also society just fucked her over really hard and she made the most of it and I just need you to listen to today's episode because It's so incredibly powerful and God. I love women and yeah today's episode is a really really good one Kara Goucher is an American long distance runner and a two time Olympian. After more than a decade as a Nike athlete, Kara is now sponsored by Wazel and Ultra and is a co-founder of the Clean Sport

Collective and Anti-Doping Initiative. She lives in Boulder with her husband, Adam, who is also a lead runner and their son, Colt. We've spoken previously with Olympians and athletes about the reality of being a woman in sports, but Kara's book, which is called The Longest Race Inside the Secret World of Abuse, Doping, and Deception on Nike's elite running team, details the dark side of athletics. Without being too salacious, this is a story very similar to the more broadly known story about Larry Nassar and the US gymnastics team. But this is a story of women at the top of their game who are in a cycle of abuse, both by the systems that exist, but also by the companies that they're partnered with in order for them to make money and to support their journeys to the Olympics and to marathons. So we're so

grateful to Kara for sharing her story as she talks about the pressure put on female athletes, especially mothers when it comes to performance and the ways that Nike mistreated her and exploited her for gain. Some of these are just absolutely shocking and yeah, again, you're going to want to listen to this episode. Very powerful, but heavy. So please keep in mind the content warnings at the top. Yeah, let's just get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. Oh, no, I can't be out of ink. Not now. Why do I do this to myself? What's that printer that comes with 30 times the ink? Yes, it. Yes, it's a Canon Mega-Phone?

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and easily manage cashflow. Receive business payments the next day, every day, at no extra cost with Monaris. Start today. Visit rbc.com forward slash your business. Register, bank, and grow your business, only with RBC. I'm in Seattle. Oh, okay. Yeah. I used to live in Portland.

I lived in Portland for 10 years. We're like, I don't know, sister cities with Seattle or something kind of sort of. Totally. And I went to college in Portland. Oh, cool. So I was there for a while. Okay. Yeah. Very similar to Seattle, although anybody who is from Portland would really be upset that I just said that. But it's true. It's true, everybody. I'm so excited to have you.

You started running at a very young age. Talk to me about when the Olympic dream started for you. Yeah. I mean, I think I always thought when the Olympics be amazing, but maybe thought of like gymnastics or something. And I started running when I was six and I didn't really think about running in the Olympics at that point. It really wasn't until I was, you know, I saw the stars,

I saw Carl Lewis and I saw people and I cared about them, but it was really in 1992 when I was about to be a freshman in high school and I saw Lynn Jennings win the bronze medal at the Olympic Games and that just had a huge profound impact on me. I was like, saw her, saw her sprint her way into third in this battle. And I was like, oh my God, I really want to do that. I want that to be me.

Was it that representation moment where it's like, okay, I see somebody who kind of looks like me. I can see myself doing this now. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I mean, like I'm just like a taller, muscular white girl from Minnesota. And I saw this white muscular girl. And, you know, it was the first time that the 10,000 had been in the Olympic Games for women. And so it was exciting to see women running that far. I mean, women were running the marathon, of course, Joanie had won the Olympic Games for women. And so it was exciting to see women running that far. I mean, women were running the marathon, of course, Joanie had won the Olympic gold medal in the marathon in 84, but they still didn't have the 10,000. And so it was just amazing to see her running that far on the track and in this

battle for a third place and to be able to sprint away. Yeah. I mean, it was, she was just an athlete that I had looked up to and saw myself in her. And it really just left me with this feeling of, oh man, I want that to be me so bad. I want to go to the Olympics. Yeah. In our research, we found you shared that sports

were the way to get people's attention. When did you start to get that attention and how did it shape the way you continued to perform as an athlete? Yeah, I think I started running competitively in seventh grade and I started running for the high school and in eighth grade there started to be, and I remember I'm from a small town in northern Minnesota, but there started to be like weekly newspaper articles about me, about the races I was doing. And you know, I came from a blended family and I was got good grades. I never got in trouble. And so in some ways, I was a little bit invisible.

And this was a way for me to like people paid attention. Care is running. What happened? Like people would ask me about my running teachers, classmates, things like that. So it was a way for me to really. I mean, I had a lovely mother and sisters and childhood in general, but it just was a way for me to like be there. You know, my sister's joke, like I had to become an Olympian to make everyone remember I was there because I just sort of blend in a little bit. And so sports was really a way for me to stand out and to have my own identity and to have people know who I was rather than

just sort of a quiet, mousy, good student. One of the things that I think, I mean, I am first of all, not a runner at all. And the fact that you do what you do is absolutely astounding to me. And I have a friend, and she's been on the show before who plays rugby for for the national team. I have talked to other folks who are Olympians. And I feel like there's just this like, pressure to perform all of the time as an athlete, but especially, of course, if you're competitively doing your sport and if you're an Olympian, do you think that pressure to continue to perform keeps

athletes in unhealthy situations or even unhealthy mindsets? I do think that it can be very unhealthy. I mean, we just had our Olympic trials selection marathon for the Olympic Games this summer in Paris this past Saturday. So the top three women across the line moved on to the Olympic Games. And while there were three women that were elated, there were a lot more that were just absolutely devastated. And, you know, there's a saying in our, in our world, which is you're only as good as your last race. And so there's just this pressure to constantly perform, to constantly enter yourself in things, to constantly knock it out of the park. And, you know, I'm a little bit older and removed from it now. And I can just see how that's an impossible standard to live up to. You cannot always be on top. You're not going to make every team you try out for. And I think that it puts a lot of mental and

emotional strain on these athletes. And I definitely suffered from it myself. But as I've gotten older, I really, really see it in the athletes now. Well, I don't think I realized how much of your pay is factored into how you perform. So can you explain the pay structure you were under and like, the demand of like, yeah, okay, I have to perform not only because I want to do well, but also I have to make a living, I have to get paid. Yeah. So my contract that I write about in the book, it had requirements.

So yeah, I was getting a great salary, but I had to race 10 times a year. I had to do 10 appearances. But then I also, if there was an Olympic games, I had to make the team, but I didn't make the team goodbye to a third of my salary for the life of my contract, right? Or I had to be ranked top three in the United States or top 10 in the world. And so it's again, life is real and messy and people have injuries and things happen. And you live a little bit in a pressure cooker. On the one hand, you're living out your dreams, you're trying to go to the Olympics and you're trying to be all that you can be. On the other hand, if you don't perform, you suffer huge financial consequences. And so it's just always on your mind. And it makes it difficult sometimes to make the right choice. Like I ran on a stress fracture in my femur once because I didn't want to have a permanent reduction to my contract. So sometimes you make decisions that you wouldn't normally make if it wasn't so intense and if those things didn't matter,

you know, but those things are all written into the contracts. I think there is this feeling that I think a lot of women have too of like, okay, if I have this goal or I want something, there's just this expectation that I need to suck it up. Like anything that's abusive or bad or just feels uncomfortable and, you know, potentially unsafe, but I have to do it in order to get the thing that I want. Was that an experience for you? Nicole Sattler Oh, 100%. And I think that goes across a lot of work environments for women.

Nicole Sattler Totally. Nicole Sattler Certainly in sport. I mean, it's a male dominated industry. Most of the coaches are male. Most of the men making decisions about contracts are male, if not all. And I never really felt like I could be emotional or I could share any doubts or I could share anything like that because then I felt like it would be thrown back in my face

that I didn't want it bad enough, that I wasn't tough enough. So I think I really hid a lot of who I was and I put up with a lot of stuff that I knew was wrong. I knew it was wrong. But then I thought, well, what's the alternative? Who am I going to talk to? And, you know, I just want to make it. I just want to, I want to go to the Olympics. I want my dreams to come true. This is just a part of it. I just have to deal with this. And I think that I dealt with that so much. I think women deal with that all the time. I mean, I come from a very different background, but my background

is like theater and the arts. And of course, there's all of this conversation. And if we're starting to talk about it much more openly, but you know, parts go to the people who are willing to, I mean, something like sleeping with the producer, or, you know, do it, you know, eight shows a week to the point where your body's burned out as well. Like, I feel like this is a common thing to your point of like, I want this so bad, I want my dreams so bad. And these institutions are upheld on, you know, silence. And we saw this with the women's gymnastics team very infamously a couple years ago, is

it's just like the cycle of abuse, the cycle of, you know, even in a more minor way, just like feeling uncomfortable or feeling just like, I don't want to push myself this hard, but I want my dream really bad. I think it starts small, right? Like you make a little compromise, you let someone make a comment about you, right? Or a comment about someone else that in any other environment, you'd be like, don't say that or that's not cool. And it starts small. And then the more that you go through it, the more you almost become conditioned to just accept it. I know that's how I was. There were things happening that I knew were wildly inappropriate. I knew it.

But if I went there in my mind and I thought this is inappropriate, this is not right, then what? Then I'm giving up everything I want. And I was trying to convince myself like, I'm not gonna let them take this from me. So I'm gonna play the game so that I can get what I want. And in the end, I ended up compromising on some of my own beliefs and things happened to me that didn't need to happen.

Yeah, and I mean, the overwhelming consensus, especially from female athletes know, female athletes and this thread through your book is almost like a gaslighting by coaches and the people who are supposed to be looking out for you, who end up taking advantage of you, not just financially, but physically and emotionally, the very people that you're trusting with your safety and your money and your career and your body are the people who are like betraying that trust. Yeah, I think actually actually that's the hardest part

is it is people that you have chosen to almost become family with, to let in, to lead you, and you just give everything to them. I'm gonna follow you into the depths of hell because you want me to be who I believe I can be. And that betrayal is so huge, but I also think that that's why so many women stay silent because the betrayal is so huge

and you really feel foolish. I mean, I was so embarrassed for years about some of the things that I experienced. I couldn't tell anyone. It was so embarrassing to me that I had trusted this person in such a deep way and ordered all the warning bells. And I just think that's a way where it allows the manipulation and the system to continue because these are people that you trust so much. And they're coming at the place where

you're the most vulnerable. They're like the ticket to your dreams. And they just hold that and they know that. And so, I mean, that's the stuff that hurts even more than some executives saying, I'm fat or I'm not competitive anymore, or whatever. Like that stuff stings, but it's the people that you really trust and you're most vulnerable with. That's what is the hardest by far. And I know you talk a bit about that in your book, but as much as you're willing to share, like, what were some of those incidents that really felt like, oh, I'm having to choose between my career and playing the game to your point versus like what my values are or what my beliefs are? You know, I had a coach that I just cared about so much and I trusted him so much. And again, it started small, it was little sexual comments about other people, you know, always like light and playful. And I kind of like compromise my

values and would join in because I felt like I had to because it's like me and six men. So I'm just going to laugh and make that say that's funny, too. And then it over time just slowly progressed to where, you know, he would just be telling me things that were just so inappropriate, like sexual fantasies, sexual experiences. And I know this is wrong. I mean, I'm sitting there like, I cannot believe this is happening.

But even though I'm thinking that, my physical reaction is to go like laugh, appease him, so this can be over with. And then it progressed to where he actually touched me inappropriately while giving me massage. And it's really sad, cause even that I somehow justified. I was like, he loves me, he would never do that.

Had to have been a mistake. It happened more than once. That was very confusing for me. And I think, you know, my breaking point was, he told me he had feelings for me in a relationship way. And it was so in my face. I'm so good. And I think women are good at this. I compartmentalize. Like I'm at work now. I'm work, Kara. Or I'm here and I'm mom, Kara.

I'm here because I can't let all these things affect me or I won't be able to get the job done. And so I think I had gotten so good at compartmentalizing. But when he was in my face, I couldn't put it in a box. Like it was just too there. And that was actually my breaking point. Not all of the things that had happened for years before that. It was, you know, him saying that he thought we should be in a relationship together. And, you know, it just, it sounds so obvious, but it took me years to get to that point where I said, this is crazy. I can't do this anymore.

Nicole Sade Oh, thank you for sharing that. It's awful. I think also as well for again, if you have the dream and you have the goal, if you have to confront what's happening, that means you then have to make a decision. Jennifer McNeary I totally agree with you. Yeah. I mean, the first time that I had an uncomfortable massage with him, I'm in a foreign country, I'm thinking, Okay, like, okay, if this was on purpose, I don't even feel safe right now. And then I'm spiraling thinking like, Why would he do that? I'm the bad person. And if I say something, obviously, he's never going to work with me again. Now, Nike is probably never going to want to work with me again, because I've accused one of their most famous athletes

and coaches of doing something inappropriate. And like the consequences were so big. And remember, too, like, this is the person I'm the most vulnerable with. He knows my dreams more than anyone else. He knows I trust him with everything. So it's like, I couldn't even go there. Like, I just shut it down. I mean, just shut it down. I like, you know, my mind went crazy for 30 minutes and then I just shut it down. Like, it didn't happen. It was an accident. And if you even think about it, you're going to ruin everything that you have ever wanted and everything that you have ever worked hard for and you're going to ruin it over this. No, you're not going to do that. And yeah, just that's what I did. Then I just moved forward and pretended like it never happened. Right. And it almost becomes like it's your fault, right?

As it's like, Oh yeah, did I do something wrong? Did I say something wrong? And then of course, because we're in a fucked up patriarchal society, the thought that you're having is, I can't say anything, even though I'm uncomfortable, because my career is going to be ruined. Not this predator, not somebody who is, you who is touching me inappropriately, seeing inappropriate things to me, who's abusing me. The conversation and the thought process is always like, I have to tolerate this because where else am I going to go to do the thing I'm good at? Nicole Zichal-Bendis I'm like, where am I going to go with this information anyway? Right? Right. Well, like, let's talk about that for a second. Is there a I think there's an Olympic committee? Maybe there wasn't at the time. I don't know, like,

what what would happen? There wasn't at the time. Okay, there was nothing at the time. There is safe sport now. But at the time, there was nothing. So essentially, I would go to his boss at Nike, who's a man who's been friends with this person for 30 years, who this person has a building named after them on the Nike campus. And he's going to say, what? Oh, that happened. I believe you. Let's just say he doesn't believe me. So then I go up higher, I go to the CEO, who's also a man. I mean, I'm not stupid. I know that I am disposable and he is not, disposable and he is not right. If he goes down, it's a huge loss for this business. There's a building named after him. He's

iconic. He's in their advertising. He's beloved. If I go down, it's I'm replaceable. There's a million other athletes that want to be Olympians. And I wasn't stupid. It was like I don't then there's nowhere for me to go. There's no one from at the time there was no safe sport. There was no one from my sports governing body that I could go to. Also, my governing bodies, their biggest source of income is comes from Nike, my sponsor at the time. So even if I said to them, this is happening, I don't know where to go. They don't want to ruffle feathers with Nike. That's where the majority of funding comes from, from USATF. So I really felt like I cannot even spend any time thinking about

this because there is no situation here in which I get to continue on as me and living out my dreams. My life is over. It's just over. As a business owner, you wear many hats. RBC can help with tools to support every role you play in your business. For only $6 a month, get more with an RBC Business Bank account. Enjoy unlimited business banking features and easily manage cash flow. Receive business payments the next day, every day, at no extra cost with Monaris. Start today. Visit rbc.com forward slash your business. Register, bank, and grow your business only with RBC.

Hi, do you have guided tours today? Yes, but of course. We have today at 10.30, 11.30, 12.30, 1.30, 2.30, 3.30. Imagine having Europe all to yourself during the Air Transat off-season promo. Book your flights to Europe starting at $549 at airtransat.com. Conditions apply. Air Transat. Travel moves us. Let's talk about for somebody who isn't an Olympian and doesn't know, what is that connection between athletes and a brand sponsor like Nike? It sounds like they're pretty inextricably linked. Yeah. I mean, they're your livelihood, right? They pay your bills. And then there's other

things too, like the races, they can control who gets into a race or not. So I don't even have the ability to get into certain track meets or certain marathons because they'll just blackball me. So now I've just made my pool of options of trying to prove that I'm good enough to qualify for this or good enough to be put in this field. That pool has been narrowed.

Now I only have a few races that will take me. And then once you get a bad reputation anyway, you're out. But also my governing body is funded by Nike. So they don't want me to do anything because that's a problem for them because that's where they get their money. So it was basically like, you know, everyone's in bed together, essentially, right? Like there's no one,

there's no one taking a step back and saying, hey, this is a problem. There's a conflict of interest here, here, here, and here. It's just like, that's how the system works. And that's how the system still works, honestly, although now there is SafeSport, which is drowning in cases and not doing the job it's supposed to do either. But at least there's, at least there is a place to go now. But back then, there was nothing. And even now, it's so difficult, because like I said, SafeSport is so backlogged. We thought, OK, in light of the NASAR thing, let's start this SafeSport thing. Let's have a safe place where athletes can come and report abuse. And we thought there was what? Gonna be like 10 cases a year? I mean, there's thousands of cases a year.

And we just don't have enough investigators and lawyers and people at SafeSport to handle the influx. This problem, what I experienced, is a nothing burger compared to the whole ecosystem of female athletes when you consider all sports. Right. Gosh, I just need to take a deep breath. Uplifting, uplifting.

No, but this is what we do on the show is we talk about the hard shit. I'm just so sorry that it happened to you. I'm so sorry that it continues to exist. I'm unfortunately not fucking surprised. One of the things that I know that when I've learned a little bit more about how Olympians are getting paid, I, again, talking with previous guests, like, I think people think, okay, I make the Olympic team. I don't know, you're immediately a millionaire or like you're immediately made it. And it's like, from my understanding, most of your money is coming from a Nike or coming

from sponsorship deals. I think you get paid when you metal. Tell me how that works because if like, okay, if the, you know, Nike and the Olympics are inextricably linked, but also like I have to get paid, like where is that money coming from? I mean, it's not like there's probably a bonus in your contract for making the Olympic team and there's probably a bonus in your contract if you metal. You're talking a contract with Nike, like you're a Nike athlete, that's a new contract. Yeah, but if you don't have a shoe sponsor or a apparel sponsor or whatever it is

in the sport that you do, you're not getting anything for making the Olympic team. You're getting a pat on the back and congratulations and you can now go get the rings tattooed on your body. And again, I love the Olympics and the history of the Olympics and the honor of being an Olympian. I get all of that, but you're supposed to now go perform on the world's biggest stage while other people are making tens of millions of dollars off you.

If not hundreds of millions of dollars off you. And you're not coming home with anything. And the only reason you can come home with something is if you do something amazing there and a secondary sponsor wants to hype you now. You know, so it's not like you go to the Olympics and all of a sudden you get $100,000. You go to the Olympics and your checkbook's exactly the same. And there's a lot of people getting rich, but it's not the athletes. Now there are a few athletes that we see who do amazing things and the public falls in love with them. And then they come off, you know, Michaela Schiffern I think of like has all these secondary sponsors because people love her and they

want to see her. And those are great. And those are awesome. But those are few and far between. Right. You just think about the number of athletes who go and compete in any sport. And yes, there's a Michael Phelps, but there's also, I don't know, someone who does curling. I can't name a curling athlete. I can't name anybody on the curling team. And so I actually know some of the curlers because they're from my hometown. The last two Olympic teams and they didn't come home with, I mean, two Olympics ago, they won the

gold medal. They came home and went back to their regular jobs. They don't have footwear sponsors or apparel sponsors, so I think that the media has done a really good job of making it look glamorous, and it is. I mean, there are dreams coming true, but the reality is a lot of elite athletes are living at the poverty line, and they're barely making ends meet,

and they're sacrificing so much, and they're not working on their skill set. So once the Olympics is over or they don't make the Olympics and it's over, they haven't been working on themselves. They haven't been working and now they're stunted as far as experience and they have no money. And it's really kind of a darker side and not to mention all the mental health stuff that goes into that. When your single pursuit is all that you think about for years and years and years, whether you accomplish it or not, it is so empty at the end. Oh, and it's your identity. It's your entire identity. And then you're like, well, now what? I haven't even let anything else enter my mind for the last 10 years because I've been so focused on the singular pursuit. And now I'm just

Kara and I don't run anymore. And like, who the hell am I? Where is my value? Nicole Zichal-Burkman Right. I'm sure you've seen the Abby Wambach interview that she gave after she won the award with Peyton Manning and Kobe Bryant on stage. I think it was the SB award for like, what is it, Athlete of the Year. And she won the same award. And she literally gives this interview. She's like, I won the same award that Peyton Manning did. I won the same award that Kobe Bryant did. I was honored the same way, but I am walking into a very different retirement. And this was at the end of her career playing professional soccer. And she was like, I don't have the brand deals. I don't have the, you know, multi-million dollar contracts. And I competed at the same

level as these two male athletes. But I literally don't know how I'm going to pay my rent. And I just think about that after what you just said, it's just such different experiences. Yeah. I mean, we're talking about one of the greatest soccer players of all time, of all time, of all time, period. In the United States, we can argue the best, right? Or one of the top five best. And by the way, in the United States, we're going to talk, they're all going to be women. Let's just be real. Yep. World Cup wins, Olympic gold medals. Yep. And she doesn't have a brand sponsorship when she walks away. She's still relevant. She's more relevant than these other people.

Soccer is huge, right? But that's just the reality that we live in. And it's so frustrating. And I love people like her who will speak openly about it because I think a lot of people feel like, well, just don't complain because maybe something will come up. Like, just don't be that person.

And it's not even like she's complaining. She's literally just telling facts. Just telling the truth. But I think it's good for us to see that and hear that because even I would assume Abby Wambach's gonna be taken care of by Nike for the rest of her life. I would just assume that, right? And we know that's not the case.

She wears different shoes now. So that is really hard when you compare her to a Tom Brady or a Peyton Manning or whoever who is just going to live out their days without having to work. That doesn't mean they won't work. They don't have to. And someone like her, that's not the same situation at all. Well, and you know, she is doing great with Glennon and they've got a podcast and she, you know, speaks and all of that. But like, also, I'm seeing fucking Peyton Manning every other day on my TV, throwing Bud Light, like, he's still out here. Sure, making way more money. He's landing huge sponsorship deals and television ad deals, right? And you can't fault him. No,

that's such a good example of like, Abby and Glennon have like done their own thing, made their own brand, talk about the relationship, crushing it. She's the best motivational speaker. They've built this whole other life and this other source of income. But the men don't have to do that. They can just show up every Super Bowl on a funny commercial and collect a million dollars for it. And the women don't get to do that. They don't get to do that. They have to hustle and pivot. And, and they can still be super successful, but they have to pivot and like come up with who am I now? And the men get to live in that glory forever. And I'm not faulting them. But I am saying like, why is it different? How come Abby just can't be Abby fucking Wambach, who won however many World Cups and two Olympic gold? Like Like why can't we, why can't she just show up? And that's that.

If you're watching on YouTube, I'm like pumping my fist. No, but, and that's not to mention the fact that when she did play professionally, she and all of the rest of typically women athletes are paid severely less even if they perform better than the male athletes in the same sport. I mean, I think women's soccer is one of those sports that if you really want to see the injustices between that we still have between men and women in sport, it's like a perfect case. And I mean, this is such a topic that we could probably go on for hours and hours, but the feedback is always so negative and so gross. And it's never just like, actually, our women are the best in

the world. I know they faltered at the last World Cup. And that's why it's news. Because they didn't win. That's why it's news. Not because they didn't qualify, or whatever, like the men qualified and we're all losing our minds because the men qualified, which by the way, there can be everybody, everybody can get love. It doesn't have to be one or the other. But soccer specifically has been such a study for me and it's been twofold. One, just so utterly depressing that the television ratings, the success, it's black and white, the men versus the women. And yet the pay is so discriminatory and so depressing. But then also it's been really motivating because they refuse to accept it. And not even for themselves, but for the next generation. Like

they're, they're not even so selfish. Like I need this money right now. It's more like, we're going to work this out year after year after year, so that the future generations don't have to do this. So yeah, women's and men's soccer is like fascinating and makes you want to rip your hair out. Truly. I, yeah. I do want to round out our conversation about like sponsors with, we learned that we just felt is so bizarre and frustrating and ridiculous. Nike suspended your pay when you were seven months pregnant. Was that something that was surprising? Yeah.

No phone call. No phone call. No phone call. No phone call. It was shocking. I will tell you it was shocking because there was no set standard for what happened when you got pregnant back then. It was a very taboo topic. No one talked about it. And I had heard that some women lost their contracts. I heard that some women got paid. And so I knew I wanted to be a mother. I knew I didn't want to wait until my career was over. And so I just wanted to know be a mother. I knew I didn't want to wait until my career was over. And so I just wanted to know what's going to happen. Like, are you going to suspend me? Are

you going to reduce me? And my coach went and talked to the head of sports marketing. And he said, in no uncertain terms, as long as she stays relevant, she does not need to worry. She don't even go there. So you know what I did? I was pregnant. I was in the cover of magazines with my belly bulging out. I was doing photo shoots did? I was pregnant. I was in the cover of magazines with my belly bulging out I was doing photo shoots. I was doing appearances and I was being promoted as Heavily Google me during that time as women can do it all you can be world-class Marathoner and you can also be a mother and so when my financial advisor calls me when I'm seven months pregnant and says Hey, you're quarterly checked and come in. I said no that's you know, it's European season time. I'm sure they're busy. I'm sure it's just

like a week late. Okay. And then I reached out to my agent and my agent said, oh, that can't, no, that can't be anything. Let me, let me reach out. And then he came back and he said, you've been suspended indefinitely. And I said, what? If I would have known there was no value in my pregnancy, I wouldn't have let them use me for their financial gain during that time. And yeah, I was suspended without pay. And I had my baby and I'm back at practice a week later, and I'm back just trying to make it right to this company. I I owe it to them and I wasn't being paid at the time. I ran the Boston Marathon six months after giving birth to my son, placed fifth at the Boston Marathon and I wasn't getting paid.

I was on covers of magazines, covers of the Boston Globe, everyone's celebrating this comeback from baby. Meanwhile, behind the scenes, I wasn't being paid because I didn't have value, because I didn't race, because I chose to have a baby. Actually they would never say baby or maternity. They can in all of our emails exchanges and all of the papers that said because of your medical condition. It's called pregnancy but whatever. So yeah anyway long story short I was very surprised yes. I'm sorry I just don. I just don't. I'm so angry.

I was so angry too. And you know, I really felt like I was going crazy. Right. Because, of course you were. I felt like, well, like, why have you been flying me all over the United States if I have no value? You know, if I have no value, why are you setting up for me to be on the cover of this magazine?

Why are you having me do this interview? Why are you bringing me into this corporate event? I'm still doing the work for you. Yeah, exactly. So if I have no value, I should have been told that upfront. And you know what I would have done? I would have been a pregnant woman. I would have enjoyed my pregnancy.

And instead I worked my ass off during that time. And I felt it was really, to be honest, it was really a shattering experience because I thought I would be with this company for the rest of my life. I had been told I was a lifer when I'm done running, I'll get some job there. And it was just so shattering to realize they don't value the things that they pretend to value. Their marketing is brilliant and amazing. And I was like on the cover of three magazines at once, but I wasn't getting paid.

Well, the New York Times, right? Didn't they talk about your pregnancy announcement? Right? Yeah. Nike actually orchestrated my pregnancy announcement. Like they actually worked with the New York Times. They told me not to tell anyone I was pregnant until this article came out. So someone from the New York Times came,

we did a photo shoot, a really long interview. And then they ran the articles on the front page of the sports section in the New York Times. Nike orchestrated that. So if I had no value, why are they putting, you know, why are they? Why am I on the cover of the New York Times sports section? Like, why? Why? If there's no value, why would anyone even write about it? And really, I just felt like I was losing my mind. I just felt like, right, this can't be real. Yeah, it was terrible.

Well, you keep saying the word value, and it just breaks my heart because first of all, every human person has value. The second thing is it's like under capitalism, it's like, if you're not working, if you're not doing your job, if you have the audacity to have a child, which is work, by the way, arguably the hardest kind of work, then I have, and I'm putting this in the massive air quotes, I don't have any value anymore. That's just so heartbreaking. But you're not wrong from how brands and companies and capitalist society treat women. Yeah. I mentioned that I was just

at the Olympic trials marathon where the United States selects our Olympic team. And- Yeah, were you commentating there? Was that- I was commentating, yeah, for NBC. And at the press conference the day before, Alfie and Tula Mokou won the Olympic trials in 2020.

She had a daughter between the COVID shutdown and when she actually raced the Olympics in 2021, her daughter Zoe. And up on the stage, they had two mothers and they were both expected to make the Olympic team. And Alfine said, oh no, there are three mothers, sorry, Betsy, Kira and Alfine who all were expected to make it or vie for a spot and they're all mothers.

And they were saying how it's so different and they were very honest and and Alfie actually said and it really made me emotional like thanks to Kara like we get to be moms and I really had to sit with it later because I thought back to sorry I thought back to the 2020 Olympic trials when I was trying to make the Olympic team, which I did. And I didn't talk about my son at all because he was considered, he was a taboo. Yeah, he was a taboo and he was proof that I didn't want it anymore. And I thought back to an interview that's really, really popular on YouTube where I said, no one cares that I'm a mom. I am an athlete. That's what I'm here for. And it made me really sad that I didn't have that experience that these other women are having. But it also made me really happy that they could talk about their children at the press conference. I never spoke about my child at a press conference because I felt like I would be judged that I wasn't serious, that I didn't want, oh, she became a mom. She's not a real athlete anymore. And so anyway, it was a very emotional experience for me for a lot of reasons,

but we have made progress. It's not perfect, but we definitely have made progress. But when I was doing it, it was like, it was like with a rolled eye, Kara had to have a baby, you know, like I, like, like, I don't know, it was just so weird. Like, no, I chose to, I wanted to. And by the way, I still made the Olympic team, you know, I'm still the same athlete that I was before. I'm so sorry. And I also, what, what, um, I'm crying over here too. I just, um, how, how emotional too, to think like, okay, I have to choose, right? And we saw with Serena Williams announcement when she retired, and she was like, I am retiring before I want

to, but in order to expand my family, I have to choose. I have to choose. And then it's also like, for you, it's like, you know, this beautiful creature I've created and this child that I love and that I have, I can't even talk about. So then that must feel weird of like, of course I'm proud of him and I love him and I wanna talk about him, but I can't because then it's gonna impact my career. And then that's just, it's just so ridiculous

that we of course live in a society that does not encourage and support parenthood, but specifically motherhood. And then that you had this experience of just like, I, yeah, I can't bring my full self to work or else I'm not going to have a job. Yeah. I can't be a mother to my, my beautiful child. And like, and then I feel almost maybe embarrassed about being a mom because I can't talk about it publicly. Like that's awful. It's awful. Yeah, no, I think that's what made me emotional because I felt sad for who I was. It makes me so

sad. It should have been a happy moment and he should have been able to be there and it should have been embraced because that's how it was being proposed in articles and on magazine covers. But when it got down to the nitty-gritty sports world, he was a problem. You know, and I just, he was a problem. I wanted to bring him to a meet or I want to bring him to training camp. But why are you bringing him to training camp? Because he's six months old and I'm his mom and I keep him alive. And everything was a battle, every way, all the whole way through. I'm his mom and I keep him alive. And everything was a battle, every way, all the whole way through. I'm going to run this marathon.

I need an extra hotel room. Why do you need an extra hotel room? Well, I need someone to take care of my son when I'm out racing or the night before, you know, it was just like, everything was a battle and it didn't have to be like that. And there was some people cheering it on, but in the world that I really truly lived in,

the people who actually make the decisions, it was not, it was an annoyance. And it was just a really, it was just a really sad time because it wasn't at all what I imagined. And I just feel sad that I couldn't really be myself during that time that I was always very conscious of tempering, talking about him and not being mom-like. I mean, I remember this woman made me a necklace with my son's fingerprint on it. And my coach and my sports psychologist were like, that is so fluffy. Why would you wear that? You are tough. You do not need that.

Yeah. And so it was just like like even in my most inner circle I had to be like I can't wear this adorable little necklace while I'm running which you know It's just my son being close to me. It was just like it was just a constant constant battle and I just yeah, and you know, that's that but that's why that's why change happens because you know, I got I But that's why change happens because I experienced that and I sat through that and I saw other women sit through that and finally it was like enough is enough and this shouldn't happen.

And that's why 12 years later women were there and their kids were there and no one was like, oh my God, I can't believe that Zoe's running around. They were like, oh my gosh, Zoe's here. This is so great. So we still can make change, but it is so much better. And I am very, very happy about that. Yeah. Whoa, what are you listening to this for? Wait, who's talking? You know, you're driving a 2024 Ford Escape with available Alexa built in so you can change the music. Oh yeah, Alexa, change station to 99.2.

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I want to get to the fuck you moment because I feel like it's satisfying a little bit when you left Nike, you took a substantially lower offer from a smaller woman owned company. Talk to me about that process. Talk to me about that decision. The nice little kind of middle finger to Nike on your way out. Yeah. So Nike had the ability to extend my contract. I didn't.

They did. And I knew that they would want to keep me. I had had a stress fracture in my foot. And I knew that I was, so one of the things in my contract too, is not so much time could pass without me racing or I could face a permanent reduction. And I, my foot wasn't healed, but I knew I was closing in on that time. And so I went secretly and quietly to a USATF sanctioned race and I ran it before that window closed. And then I continued to race the rest of the year and fulfill my contract.

And so, you know, Nike sent me this letter and they said, "'We know you've been racing. "'We know you're gonna fulfill your race requirements, "'but unfortunately you missed the window. "'You know, like you can't let more than 120 days lapse and you let 122 days lapse. And I have to tell you, Tori, it was like one of the happiest moments of my life because I was like, fuck you. I did race cause I knew you fuckers were going to do this.

And I showed the letter to a lawyer and he said, oh yeah, if you can provide those race results and you can prove that it was a USATF sanctioned event, you're free. Um, so what they wanted to do was suspend me without pay for 122 days, because that's how long I didn't race, and then renegotiate my contract. And I said, see ya. And I left. But I was still on the hook a little bit because while they couldn't extend my contract, they

could hold me for 180 days. And so I had to be released from them. And so I started meeting with other companies and I had to be released from them. And so I started meeting with other companies and I got to be honest, a lot of them just felt like smaller Nikes. You know, I remember being in a pitch, these people flew to Colorado, super nice men, but they have this whole pitch and they're like, are you ready to be the future of our brand? And we're leaning into women's running and there wasn't a single woman there but me. And I just felt like you guys are nicer and smaller, but you're missing it still. How are you making a pitch to me about being the face of a brand and leaning into women's

running when there isn't a woman here? And so I met this company Wazel. It was women led apparel. Everybody at the company was a woman. A woman started it, woman president. Everybody that worked there was female. I was like, is this real? This is like what heaven must be like, you know? And I fell in love with this brand and I told him I wanted to sign with them. And actually at the time, the CEO said, we can't take you.

We could never make you an offer that would do you justice. And I cried, I cried like my heart got broken or something. And then finally one night my husband just called her and said, just make us any offer. And so she offered me a very small contract, but with a percentage of the company. And so then when we went to Nike and said, I wanna be released, and they said,

well, we can match that contract. That's nothing, that's like not even a 10th of what we've been paying her. It was actually like 1 20th of what they had been paying her. It was like, it was actually like one 20th of what they had been paying me. And then my husband said, yeah, but she's getting a percent of ownership in the company. And it was seriously, and they said, we'll release her.

And so it was just one of the happiest moments that I got to leave on my own terms. I saw it out. I knew what they, you know, I'd been there long enough. I was there for 12 and a half years. I knew the way the game was played. I could see the future. I knew they were going to try to keep me and make me stay. And I was able to just use that experience and get out and get out on my own terms.

You don't have to share this. Have you made a substantial amount of money getting a percentage of the company as opposed to just taking a flat deal. Has that been a smart financial decision? But of course, based on your values, which is great, it doesn't matter, but also, the financial part of me is curious. Yeah, no, I mean, it was a big discussion, obviously, at the time with our financial advisor.

We're going down from this huge salary to nothing, but we knew we could make it work. And it was, playing the long game was so worth it because this was back in 2014. I'm in 2024 now, I just signed for the 11th year with this company, plus I still have part ownership. So it was so worth it. Not only just for my soul, it was worth it,

but financially it's totally paid off. And I think that's an, you know, it's easy for me cause I was older and I had the ability to walk away from the big check. But just, I really would love like younger athletes and younger women just in general to think about like, who do you really want to be? You know, like, I was like, I cannot go back to this company. I can't do it. Like, I can't represent something like this. And it was scary. And I didn't make a lot of money for a while after, but here we are now 11 years later, and I'm actually doing better than I did back when I was at Nike, like a lot better. And it's really when you can lead with your values, sure there's tough times, but it's so worth it.

It is so, so, so, so worth it. I've literally opened up another tab and I'm Googling Wazel, and I will be supporting their organization from now on because I do have a couple of Nike sports bras and we're going to keep wearing those until those fall off. But in the future, we will maybe be making a different choice with our money. Our bras are okay right now, but we have some new ones coming out the end of February anyway.

Cool. Yeah. My last question for you, being married to another Olympic runner, you're speaking about your husband, do you ever compare endorsements to see the disparities? Do you ever talk with other athletes at all talking about money or talking about deals? Like how does that work for you? I mean, I think just my husband and I are casing it of itself. He won four individual collegiate national titles. I won three, but I also won a team championship. He signed out of college for a lot more money than I did.

I mean, I want to say his first year, he made probably $100,000 more than I did my first year out of college. So we are a study in of ourselves. I am one of the lucky ones, and I do want to be clear on that. I was able to climb the ranks, and I think doing the marathon and I do want to be clear on that. I was able to climb the ranks and

I think doing the marathon and I won a medal at the world championships, I was able to really leverage that to get paid well. So just to be clear, I was one of the fortunate ones, but we still see it all the time. We see the person know, winning the hundred on the men's side is typically making a lot more than the woman. And we see it all the way down the line. And we even see it in the way that we story tell. And this is something I work for NBC and something that I've really tried to be really cognizant of is it's really easy to make stars out of the male athletes because they have quote unquote more personality. And with the women, it just maybe they aren't as flashy all the time. And it's, but it's really not hard to still make them stars. You just need to get to know who they are. And I have seen too that when the women are a little bit more flashy, oftentimes they're called obnoxious or you know, like they're attention seeking. So. Cocky or conceited.

That's what I see all the time. Yeah, like they're so full of themselves. Any sort of confident, any sort of confident woman athlete. We see this time and time again. All the time. And the men, we celebrate it. We're like, we love a good rivalry. We love all this stuff, but with the women,

we don't, you know, we still want them to be pretty and we still want them to be humble. And I'm not even talking about anything where I work. I'm just saying because I'm still involved, I see this constantly still of where the men are, you know, they're the last event of the meets. They're the highlighted event. That's what's so exciting about Paris is the women's marathon is actually going to be the last event of all the Olympics.

The women are going to be. But typically we end with the men, they get paid more, they're allowed to have personalities. And that makes them fun to follow. It's fun when someone's boisterous and confident and we want to see, can anyone beat them? But when the women do that, they don't get the same reception. So I think we still have, we still have a ways to go. I just cannot thank you enough for your vulnerability for your fucking champion of women again, it's going to make me cry. I just, I can't imagine what it was like to feel like you were putting your career on the line to talk about something that really, really needed to

be talked about. So I'm sure you've heard this from so many people, but like, thank you, like fuck yes. And I'm sorry that've heard this from so many people, but thank you. Fuck yes. And I'm sorry that it'll happen. And I'm sorry that the world is not ready to hear it. And I'm also just so glad that you've said it anyway. So just thank you for being here.

Thank you for your work. Where can people purchase your book? Where can people find out more about you? Thank you so much, first of all, for Lifting Women. It's really awesome. That's what we need for change. But people can follow me at Kara Goucher on Instagram and what was Twitter or threads. And you can find my book, The Longest Race, that pretty much your local bookstore.

But if you can't, it's at all the big sellers. You can get it on Amazon, anything like that. And yeah, I just appreciate all the support. And yeah, let's keep changing it for the future generation. Thank you so much. Thank you to Kara for joining us. Her book, The Longest Race is available wherever you get your books. You can also support her by checking out the Clean Sports Collective, which is her anti-doping initiative that she co-founded. You can also follow her

on Instagram at Kara Goucher, G-O-U-C-H-E-R. We have a link down below in the show notes and description. Thank you as always for being here, Financial Feminist. This is an episode I would really, really appreciate you sharing with the people in your life, especially if you have friends or family who are athletes. And to be honest, I'm really reevaluating my relationship with Nike products and determining how and if I want to continue supporting their business. So yeah, it's just really important to talk about these things because shame lives in shadow. And I think a lot of people feel alone when abuse and when mistreatment happens. And so we're really focused on this show in amplifying those kinds of stories because they're really important. They're

really important to talk about as women. So thank you to Kara for joining us and we would appreciate you sharing this episode with the people that you love and on social media. Thanks for being here. I don't know how to end a really heavy episode like this, but thank you for being here. Thank you for being Financial Feminist. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer Tamesha Grant, research by Ariel Johnson, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Medcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel,

Amanda LeFeu, Elizabeth McCumber, Masha Bakhmakiyeva, Taylor Cho, Kaylin Sprinkle, Sasha Bonar, Claire Karonen, Daryl Ann Ingman, and Janelle Reisner, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography Coronan, Darrell Ann Ingman, and Janelle Reisner. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolfe, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting this show. For more information about Financial Feminist,

Her First 100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.