Financial Feminist - 152. The Cost of Infertility with Ali Prato (Infertile AF)

Episode Date: April 23, 2024

TW: infertility, pregnancy, loss If you’re joining us today — it's National Infertility Awareness Week. For one in five people, building a family can be a challenging journey. In this episode of Financial Feminist, Tori tackles the deeply personal yet widely experienced topic of infertility, alongside Ali Prato, host of the top-ranked podcast "Infertile AF," co-founder of Fertility Rally and author of the children's book "Work of ART."  Ali bravely shares her own experience with secondary infertility, IUIs, IVF, and the emotional, physical, and financial burdens it brought. Together they discuss not only the science and stats, but also the real impact infertility has on relationships, mental health, and (of course) wallets. Join us as Ali sheds light on a topic that deserves open discussion.  Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at: https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/152-the-cost-of-infertility-with-ali-prato-infertile-af/ Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz. Check out Ali’s podcast: Infertile AF podcast Get support & join the community: Fertility Rally Get Ali’s book: Work of Art  Visit Ali’s website: http://Infertileafgroup.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A trigger warning right off the top for this episode, we are discussing infertility, pregnancy and loss. So if any of those will be a little difficult to hear, take a pass on this one. We'll see you next week. But I did all the things and that you're taught all through growing up. If you work really hard at something and you apply yourself and you do the best that you can do, you will achieve success at some point. And you know, like we said before, this isn't one of those places where that's always the case. You know, even if you have the best medical team and the best doctors, there's so many variables that can factor into getting pregnant and

having a healthy pregnancy and having a healthy baby. Hi, Financial Feminist. Welcome back to the show. I'm so excited to see you. If you're an oldie, but a goodie, welcome back. And if you're new here, hi, my name is Tori. I am a money expert. I'm a New York Times bestselling author. I'm the host of this show, which is the number one money podcast for women in the world. And we are a community of nearly five million financial feminists. The millions keep growing and I'm so humbled and thankful for you all. Today's episode is a really, really great one. And it's one of the most common topic requests we get, which is about IVF

infertility, about the cost of those treatments, both emotional and financial. And so this was just a really, really great episode, very informative. And also for someone who is child free, there are a lot of things that I didn't know that I learned. So if you are someone who is trying to have a child, if is trying to pursue that, if you're like me and in your late twenties, early thirties, and you are thinking about potentially having children later, but you don't want to have them right now. And the freezing egg conversation has also come up. This is a really great episode and a really, really great guest.

So if you're listening to this on release day or release week, it is National Infertility Awareness Week. Infertility affects one in 10 women in the United States and 9% of men. So we wanted to bring on a guest to talk about infertility, IVF, egg freezing and more. Ali Prado is an award winning journalist and mama of two who went through secondary infertility, which we'll talk about what that means, IUIs, IVF, depression, grief, and relationship issues. She's the host of Infertile AF, the number one infertility podcast, the co-founder of Fertility Rally, and the author of Work of Art, a new children's book about IVF and assisted reproductive

technology. This episode isn't just the science talk side, we really drove into like the emotional financial cost of IVF, infertility as a whole. And I'm so grateful to Ali, as always with our guests who come on and are just so vulnerable and are willing to share and shed light on a topic that often isn't discussed and has a lot of taboo. So without further ado, let's get into it. But first a word from our sponsors. Where are you based? Just outside of Manhattan. How long does it take you to get into Manhattan? 30 minutes on the train.

Oh, easy. Okay. Yeah, super quick. I lived in Brooklyn for 18 years and we just moved out to the Burbs. It's been a couple of years now, but I still feel very new to this world. Yeah. What neighborhood in Brooklyn? I was in Williamsburg.

Yeah. Yeah. My business partner and my friend just moved out of Williamsburg for the first time in like 10 years and he's having a... He's excited, but also like an identity crisis of like, oh my God. Totally. I'm not in Williamsburg anymore. What does that mean? Well, everyone's like, what do you miss? And I'm like, well, there's nothing cool about the Jersey suburbs. Pretty much the coolest place ever. So like, there's no cool people. But you know, I've got two kids now and you're like, I don't miss the price. Everything else I miss. Yeah,

exactly. Yeah. I lived in Bed-Stuy for two months and then I was actually just back in that apartment. I always wanted to live in New York, but didn't know if I wanted to commit to do it for the time. Yeah. Where are you, Tori? I'm in Seattle. So the goal is to be bi-coastal eventually, but financially that is, I've picked two expensive places to want to be bi-coastal in. So yeah. It is. Here's my dog putting her paw on my shoulder. Oh, what kind of dog? She's a rescue. She's like a mix.

Hi baby. What's her name? Her name is Sweet Baby Ray. Sweet Baby Ray. She's not going to be able to hear me because there's no headphones in, but hello. She's like a... Oh, that's adorable. I love dogs.

That's the other thing is I really want to get my own dog, but that's a conversation for another time. We're so excited to have you on the show. Thank you for having me. I love that there's a dog in our mix too that weirdly just comforts me just knowing she's half a world away, but I just love it. Before we launch into questions, I want to level set us with some terms that we're probably going to talk about in this conversation for people who might not be familiar.

So IVF, like ART, like give me the quick and dirty, like here's what these things are, here's what the difference is, et cetera. So IVF is, it stands for in vitro fertilization. So that is part of the world of ART, which stands for assisted reproductive technologyroductive Technology. It basically means if you need a medical intervention to help you get pregnant and have a baby, you go down the ART world. IVF is probably one of the most common ways to do it. And that literally means that

an egg and a sperm meet up in like a petri dish form an embryo and then the embryo is implanted into a uterus either your own or if you're using a surrogate the surrogates uterus. So that's IVF and it's so funny because this morning I actually interviewed somebody for my podcast Infernal AF and she's the first woman who was born through IVF in the US, Elizabeth Carr, and she was born in 1981. Wow. So it's actually not that old of a technology. It's only 40-something years old. It's still really new in the world of medicine, but a lot has changed in the past four decades. And we were talking about, God, what's going to happen in the next four decades? I can only imagine how many things will change and progress because it really is very different now than it was then when she was born. They call them test tube babies and it was like a very big

groundbreaking medical technique. So yeah, that's IVF and ART. There's also IUI, which is intrauterine insemination, which is kind of, you know, when you use a catheter, I believe, or some sort of something to basically put sperm up into the woman's uterus. So it's kind of like, it's not as in depth as IVF, but it's another way that people can get pregnant, you know, under the assisted reproductive technology umbrella. So those are kind of the basics. But I always say like, I'm not a doctor, please take it with a grain. If you have any real questions about this stuff, definitely talk to like a medical professional. I mean, I'm in this world but I definitely get things wrong as well because there's a lot of terms and there's

a lot of acronyms and things. Totally. I was thinking of if you've ever seen Jane the Virgin, that's what ends up happening to the main character. I actually haven't seen Jane the Virgin. Should I watch that? It's a great show. I highly recommend. Justin Baldoni, who is one of the stars of it, is actually a friend of mine who's been on the show. But yeah, it's a great show. She is someone who was waiting till marriage to have sex and she gets accidentally artificially inseminated. Okay, cool. I didn't know that was the premise of it.

All right, I'll yell. It's a great show. It's streaming on Netflix. It's like a telenovela, but for American audiences. So it's really, really fun. After Vanderpump rules, I will put that on my list. Perfect. But yeah, that's what happens to her

is what we would define as IUI. And yeah, it's completely accidental. Anyway, great show. You experienced secondary infertility. I did. happens to her is is what we would define as IUI and yeah it's completely accidental anyway great show you experienced secondary infertility I did tell me what this is tell me a bit about your journey and is the fertility space something you were aware of before experiencing this yeah no okay yes so many questions um I'll take it one by one so So sorry. Yes. Secondary infertility, I didn't even know what that was. I'd never heard of it. I actually didn't even get diagnosed with that ever technically while I was going through

it. I didn't even know that that was what it was called until afterwards. So just to put it in very easy to understand terms, I had my daughter without any sort of medical intervention. I hate to say the word natural because it makes it seem like anything else is like quote unquote unnatural, but I had her unassisted, you know, with just good old fashioned banging, you know, my husband. So I got pregnant with my daughter, had a fairly uneventful pregnancy with her. I did have her, however,

had a fairly uneventful pregnancy with her. I did have her, however, when I gave birth, I was 35. And the reason that that number is notable is because that's kind of the point in the medical world, in the fertility world, where things start to kind of go downhill as a woman, egg quality-wise and other things. I didn't know anything about this. And we talk about this on my show a lot and just in this community in general too is the lack of education that we all had, you know, growing up. It was never,

you never really learned actually how hard it is to get pregnant. It was always kind of the opposite. It's very easy to get pregnant. If you don't use protection, you know, you're going to get pregnant. Be careful, be careful, be careful. It was almost like a scared, straight, you know, like education that we all got. And a friend of mine the other day was talking about how we're like the banana condom generation, because it seems like everybody who grew up in like the 80s, 90s, even early 2000s, you know, and had like sex education in school, it was just like you learn how to to put a condom on a banana and that was kind of it. So point being, when I had my daughter when I was 35, and then we didn't start to try for baby number two for a couple years after that. So like two to three years after that. And then it was like, oh, this isn't happening.

And I had four miscarriages kind of back to back and I was like, what is going on? And I had been looking at kind of like Hollywood or just like mainstream and thinking, oh, you can have a baby anytime you want. Halle Berry just had a baby and she's in her 40s, or Janet Jackson, who's like late 40s, early 50s, or whatever it was.

I really didn't know anything about, like I said, egg quality starting to decrease as you got older, that you're born with all the eggs you'll ever have, all these things. I didn't know any of that stuff. So it was all a very rude awakening when I realized that, oh, it's very different trying to get pregnant when you're 33, 34 than when you are 38, 39 even. So that's when I realized that I did have secondary infertility. So my issue was specific to my egg quality.

So I had like a healthy egg reserve, like I had a lot of eggs, but not a lot of them were healthy. So what was happening, and again, this is like layman's terms, the way that my doctor explained it to me was that the reason I was having miscarriages is because they weren't healthy, chromosomally normal embryos. So they were unhealthy embryos that I was getting pregnant with and then my body was rejecting

them. So that's why I had four miscarriages. That's when I found myself in this world of one miscarriage I felt like was very, very common. A lot of friends, you know, that I had had had a miscarriage. So I kind of almost thought it was like a rite of passage. Two was still like, okay. But then when I had my third and my fourth, I was like, all right, I need to see a doctor. So I went and I found a reproductive endocrinologist who I ended up working with, who was my doctor. And he was the one who gave me the, you know, the workup and did all the tests and told me, you're actually a perfect candidate for IVF because once you're pregnant with a health,

healthy embryo, you should be okay, because you've already had a healthy pregnancy. And you don't really have a problem getting pregnant per se. It's just we need to find that healthy egg and match it with the sperm. So that's what we did. What was that, if you're willing to discuss, what was that like emotionally for you? Like I imagine that had to be so challenging. And also I think just in general, I've talked to women who, friends of mine or women in our community who have trouble getting pregnant. And even though you know, it's not my fault, it feels like your fault. Yeah.

So what was going on for you then? It was terrible. I've never been so sad and so depressed in my life. You know, I personally for me, it was like when you want to have a baby and you can't, it is just the saddest thing. You know, I was having I've been very vocal about, you know, my journey and everything like when you want to have a baby and you can't, it is just the saddest thing. I was having, I've been very vocal about my journey and everything I went through. My husband and I started having problems.

We weren't on the same page after a while because this went on over a handful of years that we were trying to have baby number two. And I wanted to keep going and keep going and keep going. But it's expensive. And it takes a toll on your relationship and it takes a toll on your body and, you know, hormonally, and there's so many different things that you go through. It was terrible. And you know, at the time, so my son, spoiler alert, I did have a son through IVF. But, you know, at the time that I was trying to have him, this is now 10 years ago, and the landscape was very different. There weren't a lot of people talking about, you know, assisted reproductive technology, IVF.

Like I said, in Hollywood, it was like, Oh, my God, she had a baby, and she's older. And that's, you know, nobody was really being forthcoming about what was happening behind the scenes. There weren't a lot of podcasts. There certainly wasn't Instagram at the time, so I didn't have a community. Facebook existed, but I couldn't find my people. I went on there looking for groups because I'm a very community oriented person, and I couldn't find a Facebook group that I could relate to.

I just wanted somebody to talk to. Like I said, I had friends who had had a miscarriage or maybe two, but there was nobody that was going through what I was going through, which was like recurrent pregnancy loss and just complete depression. I mean, I was in a very dark emotional place. So I did start going to therapy.

My husband and I, at one point we were like, are we going to make it? And I was like, I don't know, like, we were just at such different mental places in our minds. And it was really hard and really, really dark time. One of the previous guests we've had, and also a friend of mine, Jenna Kutcher, had a miscarriage journey where it just felt like could not get pregnant, really wanted it. And like, one of the things that I think, you know, I have talked about with her and she shared, but also just in general is it's like, it's, it's the loss, but it's also like the hope, and then the loss and then the hope, and then the loss. So you like start getting excited. But then

after the first time, it's almost like I can't get excited now. I can't enjoy that period of time where it's like, oh my gosh, we get to plan and we get to have this because you have to hit a certain week threshold and then, oh, maybe even after that week threshold, something could happen. So I imagine that that was one of the hardest parts too, was the like true, just like back and forth, back and forth,

and then not being able to like get your hopes up. I mean, this is very trivial kind of example, but it's almost like you're looking forward to something and you don't even get the process of looking forward to it because you're worried that something might happen. Absolutely. We always talk about how infertility robs you of so much. Right. And it does rob you of that joy, that unabashed excitement. Because when you're going through this, and especially if you have recurrent loss

or whatever it may be, you're used to getting bad news. You're used to being on the wrong side of the statistics. You're used to the other shoe dropping. So even, every time I would become pregnant, it was always like, I don't think this one's gonna work out. Like I just, it was hard, like you said, to get excited about it, because it's scary and you don't want to become so vulnerable that you get super excited and then you're let down again and heartbroken again and devastated again. I of course have to ask you,

and you mentioned it before, the thing I always think of with IVF or any of these treatments is how goddamn expensive they are. So talk to me about the financial burdens of fertility treatments and just what somebody's option is, you know, if yes, they can pay for it or if they're going through multiple rounds or what happens if you can't, what happens if you can't afford it? A lot of people can't. Yeah. And you. And that's the sad reality of this is that it is so fucking expensive. And some people have insurance, more people in the last five years since I've been in this world and doing the podcast and had fertility rally in my community and talking to more

people, companies are becoming wiser and especially the bigger companies, they're offering fertility coverage. Or people are advocating to get coverage at their place of employment, which is awesome. So I would say more now than ever, people are being covered by insurance, but that still does not even make a dent in the number of people who aren't. Personally, we had zero insurance coverage for this, which is just such a shame because when you think about infertility, it's a diagnosis. It's not like a choice. You know what I mean? If you do IVF, you're not doing it because you want to. You're doing it because you have to. you know, so it's, it's not like an

elective thing for 99.9% of the people. So for us specifically, I can, I'll be totally forthcoming about the finances. It's like, you know, 30 to $40,000 per round, all in, and that, you know, includes the meds. So like you have to do for anybody that doesn't know this world, you have to do, it's kind of like a cycle. You take medication leading up to what will be your egg retrieval.

So you're like stimulating your body, you're growing follicles and so that you can get to a point where the doctor will come in and pull eggs out of your body, literally, and you take all these hormones and things to amp up that process. Those meds are most off. For me, none of it was covered by insurance. I think it was $5,000 for the meds alone.

And funny story, my meds got lost in the mail and everything is timed. You have to do everything on this timed cycle. There's a calendar once you start going down the IVF route and it's like you have to do this, start this med on this date and then do this and then you do your trigger shot and then there's the retrieval and then there's the transfer, blah, blah, blah, blah. My meds, we paid the $5,000. And then they were like, they were delivered. And we lived in a condo in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. And I was like, No, they fucking weren't because they're not outside. And they're like, Well,

maybe your neighbor picked them up by accident. And I was like, Um, this is a huge problem because I need to start these meds tomorrow morning. And I remember I'm laughing about it now. But I was like having like a full blown panic attack, like breathing, had to breathe in like a paper bag, like I'm gonna faint. Like I was like, oh my God, what do we do? Like I need to start this medication tomorrow and it's nowhere to be found.

And I remember like literally we went door to door on our street and we lived in, you know, a con, like a walkup. So we. So we went to every apartment in our building. Did you get this package? Did you get it? No. Everybody said no. My husband was going on one side of the street and I was going on the other side of the street. So it's just like a cardboard box that they left at the front door. And thank God at the very, very last minute, we never found it ourselves, but a guy that lived about a block and a half down rang our doorbell at midnight that night.

He's like, does Ali Prado live here? We have a package for you. It was the meds. I jumped into his arms. He was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was like, you don't understand. That's one piece of it. It's just like these meds.

It's crazy. They're so expensive. Then on top of that, there's other things that go into it. You get this long sheet. And it's almost like my husband equated it to going to a used car dealership or a car dealership, because they're like, well, if you want this package, you have to go this route.

If you want to add on genetic testing, it's $5,000 more. If you want to do this, it's that, you know, so it's just, it's overwhelming. And I remember thinking like, yeah, of course, we want to do genetic testing, which means that once you've made embryos, they send them off for testing to make sure that they're chromosomally normal, which was our problem. So I was like, if we can find a normal embryo and have that transferred, we should be okay. But it was, again, it was $5,000 out of pocket. And I was like, well, we're only doing this one time. So what's another five grand?

You start to think in those terms, but it's wild. We actually had to borrow money from both of our parents to do that round because we didn't have it out of pocket. And unfortunately, like I said, not everybody can do this. There's a lot of people that can't even go down the IVF road because they just can't afford it and it sucks. What are the other financial considerations beyond just the cost of fertility treatments? Are there other things in addition that somebody who hasn't embarked on this journey might not even think about? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of things that you can do to kind

of supplement treatment, I guess you could say. So like acupuncture, over-the-counter stuff. water, over the counter stuff. I was so desperate at one point that I was buying all the woo woo teas. I remember I went down to Chinatown and bought these herbs that literally tasted like shit, but you'd put them in water and stir them up and I would just choke it down and things like that that aren't 100% necessary. But if you're going through this, you get to a point, a lot of people get to a point where you're just like, I'll do whatever it takes. So all that stuff, you know, it really adds up acupuncture. Some people do like, infrared, like therapy, you know, there's lots of different, different

things that you can kind of add on and then actual therapy to like, right, talking to a therapist as well was one of the big expenses because I did, I had to talk to a therapist to get through what I was going through. Otherwise, I was like, felt like I was gonna go insane. I am a child-free person. I don't know if I want children. I am trying to ask this question in a way that is not insensitive. There is a moment where, is there a certain moment where this does become a sunk cost fallacy, where it's like, I have put so much into this. And you know, if you've gone through multiple rounds, you're like, I just have to keep going because we've come so far.

Like is there is that part of the feeling of like, we've invested so much time and so much money and I want this so badly that I just have to keep going. I think for some people, certainly. I mean, for us, it was like, we had to put a cap on it, you know? Right, right. Well, that's what I'm thinking is I'm like, you know, of course, I have not had the both biological

and emotional urge to have a child, and maybe I never will, but I'm looking at, of course, the price of this, the emotional toll, not only on you, but on your relationship with probably the most important person in your life, your partner, the hormones back and forth, the swinging, the hope, the despair, the hope, the despair. I don't know. If I was in that, I can imagine part of me just being like, how long are we going to do this for? But then the other part of me like knuckling down and being like, you know what? This has to work. Yeah. I think I've definitely talked to people from both sides of that. And there is a child

free after infertility community that's very strong. A lot of people, you know, full of a lot of really awesome people that have walked away from treatment. I never want to say the word give up or like quit or anything like that because I think that has a negative connotation. So I always say pivoted. Right, right. That's almost what the question I'm asking, right? As it does feel like I can't give up and it's like, yeah, it's not your fault. It's not like you are trying something and you give up because like you lost at it. And again, I'm putting lost in the biggest air quotes possible. It's just like, it's not working and that's not your fault. Yeah. I appreciate you highlighting that.

That's the really like, sorry to keep saying like dropping F-bomb, but that's like the fucked up thing about this is that it was one of those things, one of the few things in life where the effort does not equate to the outcome. You can do all the things. You can throw hundreds of thousands of dollars at this. And do them correctly. And again, correctly in quotes. I have a very, very good friend who has spent over $500,000 trying to have a baby and no baby yet. And they've done multiple rounds. They've gone the surrogacy route. They've had a few failed surrogacy experiences. They've done all the

things. Travel actually is another expense that a lot of people incur when they're going through this because you might be going to a specialist who's in a different city. You know, you might be going to a reproductive immunologist who is in New York and you live in Virginia, you know, so you've got to travel back and forth or you find a clinic that's in California, but you're in Florida and you fly to visit them.

That's another really big expense of this whole thing that people don't think about. Some people do IVF abroad because it's cheaper in certain circumstances. Some people get their meds. I have a friend who got her meds from Turkey, the country, and was like, I don't know if this is legit, but it's a fraction of the cost as it is in the state. So I'm going to give it a whirl, you know, things like that. There's almost like a wild west aspect to it to a certain degree. Like you can spend hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars going down this road. And like I said, there's no guarantee, there's no guarantee that it's you're going to walk away with a baby at the end of it,

which is really devastating. That's so hard. I'm sure you've heard the podcast, The Retrieval. I have. Yes. I actually started listening to it and then I got scared. It's still real. Oh, you know, it's like, I imagine it's pretty fucking triggering. Even though, like I said, my son is now eight years old, my IVF son, you know, and I'm in this world every day and talking to people every day. It's still certain things trigger me and I started to listen to that and then I was

like, I can't. So I will, I'll go back to it, nothing against. I've heard it's wonderful and really well done, but it's just against, I've heard it's wonderful and really well done, but it's just like, do I want to spend my time on that? Or do I want to like watch Vanderpump rules? Like it's a little- No, truly. So to give context to listeners, if they haven't heard it, it's this incredible serial New York Times podcast about, I think dozens of women who went to Yale's fertility clinic and there was a fertility nurse who was stealing the pain reducing drugs or the, what do you call it, the anesthesia basically. So they were getting their egg retrievals done with absolutely no pain meds, like sailing. And it was a larger conversation about women's pain

and about like the lengths women were willing to go to have a baby because, you know, I've put this money and I put this time in, okay, I'm just, again, going to do this. And that was the other thing I wanted to talk about with this is it's like just the amount of pain that women in general, anything related to healthcare that we are expected to do, whether that is, you know, an IUD, the fact that, you know, we're just told take ibuprofen, suck it up, and that women's pain

is not believed. And I think with something like IVF, it's just like, well, you want a baby so bad, so what are you going to do? Yes. I don't know. Thoughts about that? I think it's ludicrous. I agree. And I think as women, we've been brought up to think, suck it up. I have so many friends that I've talked to who had really, really painful periods all through growing up.

And it ended up being diagnosed later as endometriosis or something in that realm. But all through growing up, it was like, oh, you just have a heavy period or just take this cramp medicine or just stay home from school today, you know, things like that where it was like ignored or not validated. And that's scary, you know, but now I think, you know, people like talking about it like this, at least people will know and hopefully the generations coming after us. That's not normal. You're not supposed to bleed for 15 days in a row. You know, you're not supposed to be unable to get out of bed because your cramps are so bad. Like that's a sign that something's

wrong, you know, and I think for so many decades, even women have been told like, oh, just take some Motrin and put a hot water bottle on your stomach. It hasn't been taken seriously. And continue to go out and pick up your kids and present them with the board meeting and do everything that you're supposed to do. 100%. Yeah, 100%. We were talking about the financial cost. and one thing I wanted to highlight before we move on is we found in our research, which is so obvious, significant discrepancies between

women when it came to access to care, right? From race to income levels. And it seems like fertility treatments, to your point earlier, because they're so expensive, are really reserved for those who have one, access to facilities and two, the income to cover it. Have you noticed this in your community? Yeah, I think so. You wish that it was more across the board and that everybody had access to it. Equitable? Yes, absolutely. And it's not. I've talked to a lot of people who have have said,

you know, this is, oh, yes, that's for like rich white people, you know, something like that, which isn't obviously the case. But I get it. I mean, that's, you know, that's a perception because it is so expensive. And a lot of people don't have coverage. You know, I feel like that's a whole nother episode that we could talk about in the black maternal health crisis and the lack of, you know, equitable medical care and all that devastating stuff that's going on as well. You know, it really sucks. Yeah, and we've done a lot of research and discussion on the show of like, yeah, the racial gap between just

the care that, I mean, everything, the care, the pay, the treatment of women of color compared to white women and also just the access to, yeah, good care and the access to even this option, right? Like we were talking about before, sometimes this just isn't even an option because it's like, I can't afford it. I don't either have health insurance or my health insurance won't cover it or my employer won't pay for it. So this isn't absolutely. And then like we were talking about before, too, like putting a cap on it, you know, some people, and this is what we did, we were like, we can only afford one round, you know, if it hadn't have worked, right, and it wouldn't have happened with my son, we would be done and

we would have just had our daughter and it would have been okay. But, you know, we had to put a cap on it because we weren't we're like, we can't just keep going and going and going. We found in a lot of our research that there's a lot of morality based opinions around fertility and reproductive health. Like we've seen this on a large scale with like abortion rights, but like the stigmas surrounding like fertility treatments. It depends on your upbringing, I think, and what people feel is quote unquote accepted, I guess you could say. You know, there's certain cultures where it's very, people don't talk about this. You know, it's very hush hush and it's very taboo. And as women, you're

supposed to be fertile and you're supposed to be, you know, you're supposed to reproduce. That's your job. And if you don't, something's wrong with you. So people don't, you know, people feel stigmatized and ashamed when they find themselves not being able to have babies or able to reproduce. So, you know, I think it's, it's, we have a long way to go for this to be widely accepted. When you were talking about this, like, lack of community, but we know from our research that you're, you know, you're taking a shot, a fertility shot in the Los Angeles gas station and you're like seeing other women there. So like, there's, you know, there's, there's other things that are going on. Like people, this is happening to people, but there's not discussion about it. I mean, more now, of course, than there used to be. But like, again, it has to be an isolating experience

where you're like, I feel like it's just me and all of these struggles are happening. But there's other people out there it's happening to. Oh, absolutely. Totally. And people, you know, there's stories of people going into like the fertility clinic and wearing like a baseball hat and slumping down in their seat because God forbid you run into somebody that you know, you know, like things like that. I think not so much anymore. So the shame is it like shame of not being able to get pregnant? I think that some people feel that way.

I never felt shame personally, but you know, like I said, I think it depends on your culture and your family life and your upbringing. You know, people do tend to feel broken, like something's wrong with them. And I think that a lot of that is like a societal thing to we're like, what do you mean you can't have a baby like just relax, just go on vacation, you'll be fine. You know, it's people don't understand I think unless they're like in this world or they know somebody that's been through it specifically, just how hurtful some of those comments can be, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think the other thing you were saying with morality is this like,

like we were talking about before this lack of control, it's like you can do everything Yeah. Well, and I think the other thing you were saying with morality is this like, like we were talking about before this lack of control, it's like you can do everything right. But like still sometimes, you know, the circumstances are different and like, you know, the whole bad things happen to good people, good things happen to bad people. Like it kind of feels like that. And I think you had spoken about that before and I would love to hear your thoughts of like, yeah, there becomes this certain level where you're just like, well, I'm doing everything right, and it's still not working. So yes, absolutely. That was a thing that I had to personally wrap, try to wrap my head around was like, you know, I equated it to like studying as hard as this is such a lame

example, but studying as hard as you can for a test and still getting an F, you know, it's like, but I did all the things and that you're taught all through growing up, if you work really hard at something and you apply yourself and you do the best that you can do, you will achieve success at some point. And, you know, like we said before, this isn't one of those places where that's always the case. You know, even if you have the best medical team

and the best doctors, sometimes the doctors too will be like, we're human, we're trying, we don't know, we don't know the answer. Because there's so many variables that can factor into getting pregnant and having a healthy pregnancy and having a healthy baby. That was one of the things that when you said, you know, bad things happen to good people, that was one of the things that my therapist and I talked about a lot was because there is a point where I was like, why is this happening to me? Like, I'm a good person.

Like, you know, I volunteer and I vote and I'm like, kind of people. And I lift up other women, you know, and I was just like, you start to feel kind of sorry for yourself, or at least I did, because I was like, why is this happening to me? Like, and one of the hardest things that we haven't touched on yet along the same lines is when you're trying to have a baby and you see all these other people getting pregnant,

seemingly very easily, or your friends are getting pregnant. And so you're happy for them, but you're so sad for yourself. And that's like kind of a mindfuck too. Cause it's like, my God, I remember I threw a baby shower for one of my best friends, you know, while I was going through infertility and it was, of course I was thrilled for her, but it was so hard to do that, you know? And I like went in the bathroom and cried at one point cause I was just like,

Oh, this sucks. Oh, it's the ultimate version of, yeah, my friend got to do this thing and I really wanted it. It's the ultimate version of that. Yeah. She got the promotion and I worked really hard and I didn't get the promotion. Totally. Or like- I have to be happy for her, but also- Yeah. Or seeing this woman on the subway that was, seemed so young and had like five little kids and was like, I'm sure I remember she like hit one of them. And I mean, it wasn't like full on abuse or anything like that. Don't get me wrong. But it was just like, and I remember thinking, Oh my God,

can I have one of them? You know, like, how do you get to have five kids? You know, you start to look at other people and you're like, it's not fair. It's just not fair. And that was one of, you know, going back to what I was saying with the therapist was my therapist was like, you have to understand like, bad things happen to good people. It's not this isn't happening because you're a bad person. But good things happen to bad people too. And it's like my mom always used to say life's not fair. And it's not. Yeah. You were talking about the kind of marital emotional strain it put not just on you, but on your relationship with your partner.

And the research that we found that just kind of just hit me right where it hurt was that like 50% of women say that their battle with infertility was like the worst thing they've ever had to experience, or the worst part of their life. And we know that fertility treatment that doesn't work, couples that go through that are three times more likely to divorce or to end their partnerships. So I want to first talk about like the not so happy part, which is like, can we talk about the strain that that is put on couples and put on a relationship during that time? And can we also talk about either personally or in your community, has there been things that have been able to bring

couples either closer together or at least to lessen the strain that they're feeling? Yeah. So starting with just the strain in general, I can speak from my personal experience. It was, again, it was just like after a certain point and it was going on, you know, miscarriage after miscarriage and I was feeling so depressed and my husband, you know, he, he's an only child of two only children. And I love only children, nothing against only children. And if we would have just had my daughter, like I said, it would have been okay. We would have been okay. But I just felt like our family was not complete. And at a certain point, we kind of splintered off and he was like, I'm done. Why are we doing this? We don't, we have a terrible sex

life because that's another thing. Like when you're going through fertility treatments, anything that was the least bit sex before, out the window. It's not organic or spontaneous. It's like time intercourse, it's like sweat, there's so much pressure that you're sweating. I mean, it's not cute. So I can tell a pretty graphic story, but I won't. But I just remember this one time and it was just like,

oh my God, that was like the worst. If you want, you're welcome to. This is a safe space to do it. You know, like lack of being able to perform because there's so much pressure and I'm like, just go ahead. Yeah. But then I was like, oh my God, I'm like the devil.

Yeah, this fun thing that's supposed to bring a couple together, which is like finding you attractive and having sex with you and using it to bond emotionally is now the most high stakes tightrope walk of your entire life every single time. Absolutely. The stakes are so high, they couldn't be any higher and the pressure is intense and it's just, it's awful. Because we paid all this money and we have this exact moment. Yeah. And you know that for us, that was one of the points where it was just like, I remember my husband's like, why are we doing this? And I looked at him and I remember saying, I wish I didn't want this so badly. I wish

I could tell you, okay, we're done. We'll stop. But I couldn't, I couldn't do it. And I remember thinking I have to go with my heart and my gut on this one. Like, I just, I'm getting like emotional talking about it because I like, it all comes back to the surface. It was such a hard time for us. You know, I just, I was like, I wish I didn't want this so badly. I wish I could tell you, I'm with you, we're done. But I couldn't do that.

And that was really hard. Cause like, I knew I was kind of ruining our relationship by being so focused on this when he wasn't. And that's not to say he didn't want the second baby. It was just like, he didn't have that guttural urge and that like, I'm going to die if we don't have a second kid feeling that I had. So I think that's a lot of times the disconnect

with couples is the desire and the how much will you give and how far will you go and it's hard to be on the same page as somebody you know I remember thinking he was like this is so expensive and I was like how can you put a price on like a human life you know and I get it from both sides I do understand what he was saying it's ridiculously expensive but it was also like I would have paid $14 million if I had it. You know what I mean? So that's, yeah, that's the hard part. You know, the second part of your question, I don't know the answer to like, what can bring help couples get through this.

I do know that, you know, fertility rally community that I co founded, we do couples groups every once in a while. And that's always really great to just keep people talking about it. And to just see that there's other couples too, that are going through it. I think a lot of this struggle is just feeling alone. So when you realize, oh, we're not alone, or we've got some of the same concerns, it does help you kind of navigate it, even to just know there's somebody else out there that's going through a similar situation. So I think communication is huge. But I feel

like either this is one of those situations where it can really bring you together or it can really draw you apart. And there's really no gray area. It's that intense. It's almost like also raising a kid, right? On the flip side, we sometimes see parents, or they're closer together after and sometimes they're further apart. Can I talk to you about egg freezing? Can we answer some questions about that? Cool. Okay. On the flip side. I hope I can answer

them all. I'll try. No, it's just I want to highlight that because I think a lot of the times when we're talking about couples on the flip side, I have a lot of friends who are either starting to freeze their eggs, thinking about freezing their eggs, because most of them have not found somebody to spend the rest of their lives with and to have children with, but they're like, I want this option later. So maybe talk to me about that process. And that's another one that I think is expensive, is very physically emotionally draining. So just maybe talk me through that process and what somebody has to think about before they embark. Yeah. So many good questions. So egg freezing is just the basics would be when you go in

and you basically go through the protocol, you take the meds that you would be doing leading up to a retrieval, but you're not going to go any further than that. The first part of IVF is the egg retrieval. The second part is when you transfer the embryo. This is everything up to after the retrieval. Basically you'll go through that. You'll do the egg retrieval and then they will literally freeze your eggs and you know you can

do this. A lot of people do it now and there's so many great companies too speaking of finances that will do will cover this now for people which is awesome you know one of the benefits that people will have in like a larger workplace sometimes is giving you know coverage of this but a lot of people do it now thinking, I don't know if I'm ever going to use these eggs, but it's kind of like a good insurance policy to have because as far as I know, and again, like fact check me, but they can stay frozen indefinitely. I think the thawing process can sometimes be a little bit tricky and they're still trying to figure that out. And it's come a long way since it was first invented and it's getting better

and better and better, you know, as new technology is developed and things. But you know, people will will go and freeze their eggs and then like I said, never use them or maybe they will later in life. So yeah, I mean, that's, you know, I think that it's a great option for people to have. And I love the fact that people are doing it more and more, you know, and taking matters into their own hands, because I think a lot of the infertility stuff, you feel so out of control, and a lot of stuff is not in your control. So anything you can do to maintain that control is always a good thing. And also, you know, the younger you are, the healthier your eggs will be. So people might be freezing their eggs in their 20s now. And you know,

might not use them till later in life. But the theory and the notion and the science behind it is that, you know, if you're younger and you freeze your eggs, it's better than if you're an old lady like me now. I would love to also talk about like the price of that, right? You mentioned IVF 30 to 40 ish. Like what is the price of trying to freeze your eggs? So it's significantly cheaper, So basically, the process would be you go in for an assessment, and then you meet with a doctor

and talk about everything that they did in your workup. And then you do the monitoring where you get hormone injections to stimulate your ovaries. And then you do the retrieval like we talked about. And then they will store the eggs. Now, like I said before, the notion is that as you age, as a woman ages, the percentage of abnormal eggs increases. So that's why people are doing it when they're young and they're healthy. I mean, prices obviously can range, but you know, like take a

Manhattan clinic that's known for their egg freezing, for example, it's about $8,000, I would say for the egg freezing cycle. And then, you know, the storage from what I've heard is anywhere between, you know, six to $800 per year. And then you'll get the call like, you know, your year's about to exp you still want to keep them and you have to like pay that fee every year You can also do embryo freezing which is you know making an actual embryo sperm and egg But some people will do just eggs because they're like I don't want to be tied to a certain guy like, you know I want that autonomy or I want to be able to do what I want to do with it so I think it's it's less rare to do

embryo freezing if you're not like in a couple, I guess, relationship or committed relationship. But yeah, that's kind of the gist with egg freezing. But, you know, it's definitely more affordable. I think insurance sometimes does cover it as well. A lot of places offer financing too. But I think it's a great, it's a very cool option. And had I known about it, cause again, I really didn't learn anything about this until later, I probably would have done it, you know, like just, just to have that kind of in your, in your back pocket. Well, and I want to clarify, you said it's basically the first part, like

you still have to go and retrieve the eggs. You still have to do your shots. You still have to do all of that because I'm literally my mom, she was like, I don't think egg freezing is the same. I don't think you have to retrieve your eggs. And I'm like, no, you 100% do. So she will be getting a phone call afterwards and record. I talked to an expert today. It's still a retrieval. Yeah. And the retrieval too, just so you know, it's very quick. It's probably like 15 or 20 minutes. It's not like a huge thing. And you're under mild sedation. You're not totally put under... Unless you're at the Yale Clinic. I probably can't say that. I know you're just going to

be mad. Exactly. Thinking of the retrievals. Exactly. But it's done vaginally. It's not like they cut. There's no stitches. You can go back to work the next day. You know, it's a very, some people will even say the retrieval is kind of like, anti climactic, like, it's just like, Oh, that was it, you know, but it depends, obviously, what happens and how many they get and all that stuff. Well, and you're giving yourself the shots and everything up to that point, right? So it's like, it's how long is it? Is it weeks? Is it months? Like how long is it going forward? It depends on what like the protocol that you're being given is, which is kind of like

the monitoring, but I would say anywhere between like maybe eight and 12 days on average. Oh, from like shots to retrieval? Yeah. Oh shit. Okay. Maybe I've just heard, because again, I've had friends do it. I think Armchair Expert, they do a podcast called Synced About It. And so maybe they just did multiple rounds of it. Because I remember- I think, yeah, if you're talking about Monica from-

Yeah, and Liz is a friend of mine and I was like, what? How long are you doing this for? Yeah. I think that was maybe multiple rounds. Some people do back to back rounds to get, you know, you do one round, you do a retrieval, and then you go your next cycle, you do it again. Again, there's like a lot of different routes you can go down. But just for one, yeah, it's like eight to 12.

That's much more accessible than I thought it was. I thought this was for months. Okay, cool. I'm now I'm at the point where I'm asking questions. Well, keep me posted. Let me know. I don't know if I'll do it. Again, this is a larger conversation of like, I don't know if I want children. I'm also 29. So it's like, I have, I think a couple more years of like... Totally. Again, same thing. I'm doing the natural, but then that's yeah, everything else seems like an insult to call it not natural. But yeah, like, I think I know more years of flexibility before things start getting

sticky. And you know, I always like to say to like, I have so much respect for people that are like, you know what, I don't want to have kids. Because I think that's a hard decision to make, you know, societally, it's just kind of expected. Um, you know, one of my very best friends decided they didn't want to have kids. And we talk about this a lot. And, you know, I'm like, Bravo to you for not doing it just because you felt like you should, you know, like it's, I think it's a very amazing thing if that's the path that, you know, you choose to go down as well. I have to end us on, I don't know, I just feel like I'm asking you questions and it's like, yes, we get a kid out of it, which is what we want, but also there's so much trauma.

So talk to me about the beauty of IVF or talk to me about the beauty of fertility treatments of like, yes, you get the thing at the end, ideally, that you really want, like, I don't know. And that's not a happy note of like, how are these like great, great things that are great options for us? I don't know. Just just give me the rainbows, butterflies, because like, I don't want to talk about an hour of like how depressing it is. Yeah, no, I mean, it's obviously, when it happens, and it goes the way that you want it to go, it's obviously when it happens and it goes the way that you want it to go, it's amazing.

I wrote this book called Work of Art about IVF. It's a children's book and it's about me telling my son the way that he was born. And that's the whole theme of the book is like, isn't science fucking amazing? Like, isn't medicine cool? Like you were born in such a cool way. And you were so wanted that we did X, Y, and Z to get you. And you know,

I talk about secondary infertility too, because that's a tricky subject. You know, some people think, God, you're being selfish. You already have a kid. Why are you putting yourself through this? Why are you doing it again? And for me, the way that I try to explain it in the way I explain it in the book was like, I love being my daughter's mom so much that it made me want to do it again. If that makes any sense, like I wasn't coming from a place of greed, I was coming from a place of love. Like being a mom is my favorite thing. So that's why I wanted to do it, have the whole experience again another time all the way through. So, you know, there's, IVF is, it's insanely amazing. I mean, I can't, like we were talking about at the beginning, I can't believe it's only 40 years old. I can't like wait to see what happens in the next couple of decades and you know, what they come up with and what's invented. But there's so many people that wouldn't be on this earth if it wasn't for IVF, including

my son. And it still gets me choked up because I still can't believe it worked. I can't believe he's here. I can't believe all the things had to line up correctly for it to give us our second kid. And I say that to him every single day, every night, I still can't believe you're here. And now that he's older, he always goes, Mom, I'm always going to be here, which is sweet. So yeah, it's, it's, it's, yeah, it's thank God for science and medicine and magic too, because the universe definitely has its part too. You know, it all has to come together.

I think there's, there's not just one thing. It's like, it's all those things combined. And now that I'm crying, Ali, thank you for being here. Tell us about your podcast. Tell us where people can find more about your work and your community. Where can people go? Oh my God. This flew by Tori.

Thank you so much for having me. People can listen to my podcast, which is on all the platforms. It's called Infertile AF. Every week there's a different person's family building story. It doesn't always end with a baby. Some of them are funny. Some of them are funny, some of them are heartbreaking. You know, it's kind of my whole thing is just telling diverse family building stories with various endings. I talked to same sex couples, single parents by choice, or solo parents by

choice, I should say. And, you know, I talked to everybody that wants to talk to me basically, because I feel like all the stories are important, because there's somebody out there that needs to hear that so they don't feel alone. I also have Fertility Rally, which is a community where we do virtual support groups for anybody that's going through infertility. And it's just been a lifeline for me and hundreds of people. It's the place I wish I had when I was going through it. And then I have this book too, which is called Work of Art. And people can find it on my website, which is infertileafgroup.com. It's self-published. It's really cute. It's very sweet. And again, it's just another resource for people to normalize these conversations and realize that it's okay to talk about this stuff. Oh, and I'm

also on Instagram. If you want to reach out to me on Instagram, Infertile Ave Stories is my Instagram and my DMs are open if anybody has questions or needs anything. I am here because I know when you're in the depths of this, it's so fucking hard. So I just want to help people who are coming behind me and make it suck less. Yeah. Thank you for your service heart and your vulnerability. And yeah, just thank you for everything. Appreciate it. Oh my God. I love talking to you.

Thank you so much to Allie for joining us on this episode. Such a powerful one and a really good one to share with any friends who are experiencing infertility, pregnancy loss, IVF, the journey of all of that. And we just thank her for being here. You can subscribe to Infertile AF, which is her podcast wherever you're listening right now. As always, Financial Feminist, thanks for being here. If you haven't already, subscribe to the show. You can click the plus button or the subscribe button wherever you're listening right now. It is free for you and it allows you to get new episodes directly to your feed. You don't have to search Financial Feminist every time you want to listen. I say this often, but this podcast is expensive for us

to produce, but free for you to listen and subscribing is the easiest way to support. So we appreciate it. Thanks as always for being here. We'll talk to you soon. Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, associate producer, Tamisha Grant, researched by Ariel Johnson, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Medcalf,

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