Financial Feminist - 153. Negotiating Your Worth with Jennifer Justice

Episode Date: April 30, 2024

Feeling stuck negotiating as a female entrepreneur? Have you ever walked away from a deal or a partnership feeling like you left money on the table? In this episode, we flip the script on negotiation so you can level up your career. Join host Tori Dunlap for an insightful conversation with Jennifer Justice, the mastermind behind The Justice Dept. – a business strategy & business development consultancy and a law firm that works with female entrepreneurs, executives, talent, brands and creatives to build and maximize their revenue and wealth. Prior to The Justice Dept., Jennifer was EVP of Strategic Marketing and Business Development and General Counsel at Roc Nation; she has served as personal entertainment attorney to Jay-Z and Beyonce during her time at Roc Nation.   Jennifer's a powerhouse consultant who has helped countless female founders launch, grow, and scale their businesses. From crafting strategic partnerships to demystifying negotiation tactics, Jennifer has the tools and experience to help you become a fearless negotiator. Whether you're a seasoned entrepreneur or just starting out, this episode is packed with actionable tips and strategies you won't want to miss. Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/153-negotiating-your-worth-with-jennifer-justice/.  Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz. Jennifer’s website: The Justice Dept. Jennifer’s career course: Be the Boss of Your Career Check out Jennifer’s podcast: Takin’ Care of Lady Business Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And then what kind of deal is it? Is it like with Jay, he was always so entrepreneurial and he always knew what he wanted. He wanted to own things for the most part. So we were creating deals that had never been done. He was really one of the first in music in particular to start his own brands, et cetera. He's like, instead of making somebody else rich,

I'm gonna do it myself. And we did that in a lot of different ways. And way before Roknation when he was like, okay, let's really like hyper grow this idea of being self sustaining company and all the parts like feed each other. Hi team. Welcome to the show. I'm so excited to see you. Welcome, Financial Feminist. Thanks for being here. I was telling Kristen before I went to the gym this morning. I woke up at 7 45, 6 45. I went to Jesus. I woke up at 6 45. And some of you is like, yeah, this child's play. I'm up at five.

Sorry, that was early for me. And I went to the gym before work. And yes, I feel better than everybody else. No, but truly, I'm like, this is this is the version of me where I am at my best. I had my smoothie after I did my shower. Also, quick life hack. This blue that I don't know why I didn't do this sooner. This like blew my mind the first time I did it a couple years ago, I was somewhere tropical. And there was an outdoor shower at the place I was staying. First of all, outdoor showers, 10 out of 10 would recommend. Second, I never thought to bring beverages into the shower before. And

let me tell you, shower beverages hit different. So I would wake up and I would go out to my outdoor shower with the birds chirping and the sunshine, and I would have made my smoothie and I bring my smoothie into the shower and let me tell you, it changed my life. It changed my life. So this morning, I took my shower after my workout and I had my kale, ginger, apple, lemon smoothie already made. And I just sat and I was in the hot water and I just sipped it and then I tried to cold plunge and I did about three seconds and then I was like, no, too cold. And then I switched it off. Also, I didn't do an intro. Hi, I'm Tori. You probably knew that already. Welcome. I'm a money expert. I'm a New York Times bestselling

author and I'm a smoothie in the shower drinker and I highly recommend. If you are new to the show, you're new to Her First 100K, you are trying to figure out where the hell to start with your money journey. What you're going to do is go to herfirsthundredk.com slash quiz herfirsthundredk.com slash quiz. You can also go down to the description that's right under this episode and it's a sticks question quiz. There's no pass fail. We're just trying to get some information about you and then we will deliver you a free personal money plan to guide you on your journey. This is the thing we built for everyone who's way too overwhelmed, who's trying to

figure out where to start with money. So literally, while you're listening to this episode, assuming you're not like driving a car, go ahead and type that in her first 100k.com slash quiz, complete the quiz, and we will send the results and all the goodies directly to your inbox. So we appreciate it. Alright, today's episode is a fun one with a friend of mine who's also a collaborator, Jennifer Justice. Jennifer Justice is an entrepreneur and former entertainment executive known for her expertise in building careers and business

portfolios of artists and women by marrying art with commerce. From the beginning of her career, JJ, as she is known, has championed gender equality and diversity in the workplace and beyond. In 2019, JJ founded the Justice Department, a business strategy and business development consultancy, and a law firm that works with female entrepreneurs, executives, talent, brands, and creatives to build and maximize their revenue and wealth. Prior to the Justice Department, JJ was EVP of Strategic Marketing and Business Development and General Counsel at Roc Nation. Yes, that Roc Nation where she helped structure the vision and growth of Roc Nation. Get this, you ready?

Hold on, hold on to your socks everybody. She served as Jay-Z's personal entertainment attorney for a total of 17 years and Beyonce's attorney. Yes, Beyonce Nils Carter's attorney during her time at Roc Nation. Crazy, wild. First time I heard that, that she, I was just floored. I was like, tell me everything, even though I know you can't. JJ also hosts the acclaimed podcast,

Taking Care of Lady Business, which I have been a guest on. She's also been named a game changer by Goop, by InStyle, as one of the 50 badass women changing the world and on Billboard's Women in Power list three times. She's been featured on The Today Show, Tamron Hall, CNBC, and Yahoo! Intermix, The Skin Podcast, Kara Goldin Podcast, and is a regular contributor on NBC News. A couple of things we talk about in this episode. We talk about how Jennifer got into the music business and the lessons she learned while working at Roc Nation. And if you're a small business owner, we also talked about all the important questions of when is it time to bring in a lawyer? It's super important to figure out when the most opportune time is, as well as how to make advantageous deals when you're building your business or your brand. And we also spend some time talking about negotiating both as a business

owner and as a woman navigating the corporate world. So whether you're a business owner, someone who's working a nine to five, anything in between, this is going to be a great episode for you. Let's go ahead and get into it. But first a word from our sponsors. Is crypto perfect? Nope. But neither was email when it was invented in 1972. And yet today, we send 347 billion emails every single day. Crypto is no different. It's new. But like email, it's also revolutionary.

With Kraken, it's easy to start your crypto journey with 24-7 support when you need it. Go to kraken.com and see what crypto can be. Not investment advice. Crypto trading involves risk of loss. See kraken.com slash legal slash ca dash pru dashlaimer for info on Kraken's undertaking to register in Canada. To uncover your potential with the all-new LG Gram Pro laptop. Staying as light as a gram, this powerhouse is here to elevate your workflow. Powered by Intel Core Ultra Processor with AI enhanced capabilities, you can keep your

cool and staying control of your work with advanced power dual cooling. Welcome to the pro life with LG Gram Pro. Experience the power of pro. Get your LG Gram Pro today. Pro anytime, anywhere. You've been seeing far too much of me recently and I'm so sorry for that. I feel like this is our third time talking. I'm like, oh, you've seen way too much.

How are you doing? How's life? How are things going? You're based in New York. I'm based in New York. Is it Brooklyn or a part of New York? No, I'm in Lower Manhattan. Okay, cool.

Tribeca, yeah. Yeah. It's hectic. I feel like things are like back to 2019 and everybody's like calling it seven at night again, you know what I mean? That's not ideal. No, I was just talking to a friend this morning that apparently there's this fungal thing that's uncurable going around Washington state hospitals. And she's like, is this the beginning of the pandemic again? She's like, it's the same Super Bowl. It's

the same presidential candidates. She's like, is this? are we round twoing this? I was like, I can't, I know I'm like, I can't think about that. No, I can't think about doing this. Although we're much more prepared. I did tell her I was like, if we made it through a pandemic, maybe we can make it through a second question mark. But I think we're going to be fine. Watch in three months, we're not fine.

But I have a lot of PPE. Yeah. three months, we're not fine, but. I have a lot of PPE. Yeah. You know, that's for sure. Totally. Just dumped up. We're really excited to have you. I love to start interviews

with our finance and business guests by asking them their first money memory. When is the first time that you remember thinking about money? The first time I remember thinking about money, I was in high school, I always had jobs, like pretty much over part-time, you know what I mean? And I got a credit card because I was going to college,

I was the first of anybody in my family to go to college, my mom didn't even graduate high school, you know, from Washington State. So, you know, and I was going to University of Washington, and I didn't have like a comforter and everything. And so I had to get a credit card and money and get a credit card to purchase like betting and stuff for the dorm room. And I had a credit line of $200. And I purchased, you know, probably $150 or something worth of stuff and freaking out going, how am I gonna pay this back? It was never a good relationship with money,

I'll tell you that. It was always, I always had the poverty mentality. We grew up in food stamps and government cheese and stuff like that. So it's always about scarcity, not abundance, unfortunately. Yeah. So it wasn't this exciting, like, cool, I'm going to go use this credit card to buy the things I want. It's like, holy shit, I can't afford this. Yeah. How am I going to pay this? Yeah.

We find that money memories often have a direct impact on the relationship with money you have unless you'd work to change it. And so it sounds like that, yeah, scarce mindset, very similar of just like growing up without a lot. And it sounds like that informed a lot of your experience. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So what drew you to entertainment? Like, I have to ask you, like, where did we,

how did that start? Like, and especially on the business side, like going from college at U-Dub to like getting to like, what especially on the business side, like going from college at UW to like, getting to like, what drew you to that? What was exciting about that for you? Well, you know, growing up without any like mentors from a business perspective and understanding what I could possibly do with my, you know, my undergraduate degree, you know, I wasn't really sure. And so I was looking to, you know, graduated, I was going on like interviews for wine distribution or insurance sales. And I was just

like, this is not why I went to UW. And I didn't want to work at, you know, with a burgeoning Microsoft or, you know, like Microsoft or Starbucks or the big places in Seattle. And I was like, you know, and I guess I'm going to go to law school. I'd worked at the prosecutor's office in King County. And I was like, okay, I'll go and I'll be a lawyer because I don't know what else to do. You look on TV, it's like lawyer, doctor, banker, it's still the same. Private eye, you know, spy. And so I opted for a lawyer and I applied to law school and it was, you know, the grunge years had been in full swing. All those bands still lived there.

You know, Seattle was still a pretty small town and they would go out to clubs and see these bands and they all, they were like, oh, you're going to the law school? We have lawyers and they're women. And I was like, wait, what? I can do this? And so I went to Cornell Law School solely to be a music entertainment attorney. But you know, it's not an easy thing to get into. So I started as an associate, a litigation associate at a law firm called Hughes, Hubbard

and Reed. And they're really great. They're downtown New York. And they said, look, we know you don't want to be here, you know, but we want our people to be happy because if you go somewhere else, you know, you'll possibly hire us. And so one of the guys who hired me actually there called me and he said, have good news and bad news. I'm not going to be here anymore, but I'm going to Electra Records.

And when you're ready to be, you know, an entertainment attorney, I'll help you get some interviews. And that's exactly what happened. And I just knew that it was an area after working in litigation and not having, you know, I didn't go to boarding school, I didn't go to private school here, I don't have dads who are general councils or friends or general councils to get clients and I was ambitious and I wanted to do well and but I knew that I could relate to musicians and I knew it was an art form that I loved so much so I, you know I really wanted to be a music attorney. And

so that's exactly what happened. The guy, when I was ready about a year in, he started introducing me to other attorneys that were looking to hire and hire somebody like me. We read that you took a pay cut to do that. Was that a payoff that ended up being worth it? It sounded like that that was something you actually wanted to do versus, you know, your unhappiness in your current situation. Yeah, I looked at it like, you know, I've probably really not make partner for a really long time because I just didn't have that network. And I took a bet on myself. I mean, they offered me even less. And I said, and I negotiated higher, thankfully, sometimes I look back at that person, who was she? How did she do that? And I said, and I negotiated hire, thankfully. Sometimes I look back at that person and go, who was she, how did she do that?

And I negotiated hire, I knew that they wanted me. So, and they met it. And then I quickly started getting my own clients. And I knew that if I get my own clients and I could, you know, surpass what I was going to be making, you know, at the same year and level at Hughes Hepburn Reads. So I took a bet on myself, lived some lean years. I had a ton of loans from UW and Cornell. Well, mostly from Cornell,

not from UW, but it was pretty hefty price tag. And so I just hustled. I hustled and worked my ass off and got a bunch of clients and did really well really quickly. So it paid off. Yeah. I would love for you to explain to the listener who's not in this industry, why might an artist need a lawyer? Like, what is the purpose of legal counsel to a client like Rihanna or Beyonce or Jay-Z and like what sort of deals are you brokering? Like give me a peek into that universe how the sausage gets made. Okay. So yeah, it's actually quite different and I didn't know that because I was, you know, that's I kind of like grew up in the business. But a lawyer is usually one of the first people

that an artist hires because they help them find managers for their business. They help them find business managers. They help them find booking agents which book their shows and then also find record deals for them. So we negotiate that full record deal, which is usually a 40, 50 page agreement. You know, if they're songwriters, we help them find publishing deals that will pay them for the songs that they write because they're songwriters that aren't artists and artists that aren't songwriters, right? And then there's some that are both, which happen to be all the people who are just named. Then they have deals for their merchandise that you buy when you go to a show. They have deals with their

managers when they get them. They have deals for shows. They have deals for all the extracurricular kind of stuff that they do. Jay-Z happened to turn all his hobbies into businesses. So it's actually way more like an agent because an agent doesn't touch their recorded music with a record label or their songwriting. They only do, for the most part, their live shows. And sometimes they'll do their sponsorship endorsement kind of stuff.

But like, for instance, Jay-Z never had an agent his entire life. So I was doing more agents of more sourcing, vetting, you know, is a lot more business development business strategy. And then I also had a lot of great, you know what I mean? And I had to do the paperwork too. So it's a really integral role in an artist's career. They always have a lawyer, they always have an well, unless you're Jay-Z have an agent for the most part, right? They have a record label or self-release or publishing company or collect that on their own.

Those are kind of the major players in their careers. Well, and I think one thing, especially looking at your client roster was people who were not just thinking strategically about, yep, I'm gonna be a musician, but also I'm gonna be a songwriter and I'm gonna own a liquor brand and I'm gonna have a streaming service and I'm going to be a musician, but also I'm going to be a songwriter and I'm going to own a liquor brand and I'm going to have a streaming service and I'm going to do all these things. So like, how integral is that relationship between a lawyer

and an artist to say, okay, there's these other opportunities for you that are here just beyond music, just beyond, you know, you showing up and writing songs, but also, yeah, of course, touring and merchandise. And then in addition, all of the other pieces now that we see more commonly of just like the musician as a brand. Yeah. So it's, I mean, it's a very close relationship because, and it should be, you know, centered without one person because every deal has an exclusivity or, you know, a term And you have to make sure that everything, all the puzzle pieces fit together, that you're not breaching one contract to get another, right?

And when they are and how much negotiation and how much leverage you have based on their last album, you know what I mean? That's really what it is. It's like, how hot are you and what can you get from there? And then what kind of deal is it? Is it like with Jay, he was always so entrepreneurial, you know, and he always knew what he wanted. So, you know, he wanted to own things for the most part,

you know, so we were creating deals that had never been done. And he was really one of the first in music in particular, to start his own brands, etc. Like instead of making somebody else rich, I'm gonna do it myself, you know? And we did that in a lot of different ways. And way before Roc Nation, you know, when he was like, okay, let's really like hyper grow this idea of being kind of self-sustaining company

and all the parts like feed each other, you know? Yeah, well, and I just wanna call out cause you know, the average listener, as much as we want to be a Beyonce or a Jay-Z, right? We're probably never going to get there. But this is something that you can think about in your everyday life, especially if you're a business owner is like, and this is part of what you and I are having conversations with offline, which is like, how can we expand the worth of our brand, the worth of our company, in not just a very obvious way, but where do you have influence?

Where can you extend your brand past just your niche and think more strategically that way? And so I think that that's one great learning from you and your work is it's like, again, thinking strategically about like, what can I own? How can I run this as opposed to giving money to somebody else? Exactly. Like, what can I own? How can I run this as opposed to giving money to somebody else?

Exactly. Like, what are you doing on the side that you're paying somebody a lot of money to do that you can do yourself, you know? Totally. And make money on that. And it can be daunting, you know? You gotta take it like one step at a time,

but especially given, you know, digital, all the different ways you can expand your brand digitally and monetize those different things, all the different software, all the different AI that can help you in that. You'd be remiss not to take advantage of that. We might not be able to talk about this because of NDA and you can tell me and we can cut it, but one of the things that I loved and maybe you're still working with her at this time, but the very famous story of Beyonce performing at Uber and Uber offering her a fee, and she was like, no, I'll take equity instead. Were you part of this deal? Do you remember hearing this?

No, I had not. No, I don't remember hearing it. But we had some probably, you know, so no, I don't remember doing it, hearing it. We did at Rock Nation get to invest in Uber early on though. And she might have done that right after that. Maybe that's what it was. It was something. Yeah, it was like, you know, one of those like now almost memes where like Beyonce performing and then the little, you know, information about her below. But I remember seeing this like six or seven years ago that it was like, you know, Uber called her and we're like, Hey, perform at our annual party. And she was like, No, I'll take equity.

And now the equity is worth, you know, 30 times what they were going to pay her. And I was just like, that's the kind of business decision. Now, on the flip side, there's sometimes where taking equity in a company is not the smart move, right? Where it's not going to be worth anything. But like that is strategic thinking. Like same thing with her like selling, like keeping the rights to homecoming to be able to go sell them to Netflix as opposed to, I think Coachella just wanted the rights to her performance and she

was like, no, I'm going to keep them and I'm going to sell them for more money somewhere else. Like I think it's just really smart that sort of, yeah, big picture kind of thinking. And sometimes look, it's you when you have the resources to do those things, right? Because if you say, you know what, I'm going to pay for the whole performance and I will, you know, pay for the recording, I'll pay for the cameras, etc. So you can't own it anyway. That's another thing, you know, it's like you're going to pay me and I'm going to use that money to pay for myself and then I can get those things. You can do it in smaller ways too, you know.

It's, a lot of it comes up in books, you know. It's like, do you want a self-release which is totally an option these days and pay for everything yourself or do you want somebody else to own all of your assets including like the title of your book, you know. And, you know, which could also be the title of your company and all these different things that you have to think about. Same with a podcast, who owns

it at the end of the day, you know? That's something we're thinking about a lot at her first UK. And one of the things that like to add to that is I am now thinking like, when is a partnership going to not only of course, financially make sense and like, you know, we going to not only of course, financially make sense and like, you know, we share the same mission and values, but also like, at this point, a lot of things I could do myself, so I'm paying for convenience for somebody else to do them. If I'm bringing in a partner, it's like, okay, they can either they should either be able to do it better than me, or I don't

want to build that team to be able to do it right now. Or, you know, I don't want to be have to like stress about that and worry about that. So that's the balance or that's the like the decision grid that's in my head is it's like, is it worth it to bring it in house so I can control it? And if it's not, then it has to either be, you know, a better move financially or more convenient of just not having to think about it. And if it's not, then it has to either be, you know, a better move financially or more convenient of just not having to think about it. So that's something that I'm thinking about a lot. Well, yeah, I think you have to also think it's like, is this really in line with my brand? Is it a complementary capability that I can help my business grow?

Totally. Or like a lot of startups, for instance, think about bringing engineering teams in-house and tech companies, right? If your main product is tech, that's one thing. If your main product's not tech, do you really need to house a tech company inside your company? You might have tech capabilities and you can have an outside person with a CTO inside, but do you really need to pay overhead for an entire tech team for it? Probably not. These are like considerations that you entire tech team for it? Probably not. You know, these are like considerations that you have. It's like one example of how to, you know, analyze who you should bring in House for Good and who you should hire out.

I can hear our audience already after, you know, talking to you for a bit going, okay, at what point do I need a lawyer? Like if I run a small business, when do I need someone on my side legally? Because I see people do one of two things, either wait way too long, which is something that I may have done. Or the second thing is like get a lawyer like way too quickly. Like I think a lot of people like have an idea and they immediately get a lawyer and I'm like, I don't know if you need a lawyer 100% of the time at that junction. So tell me like, when is it, when does it make sense for a small business owner to bring someone on their side? And what are some things that you see if business owners doing that could put them in hot water because they don't have an attorney?

Right. You know, first, you need, you need to start the company itself, right? And you don't necessarily need to go to an attorney for that. You know, accountants can do that. You know, if you're doing a C Corp, a clerk, he can do that legal zoom, you can start companies and in other ways. And it's really the decision is really more of a tax decision. There's this there's you know, you should you can shield yourself from my abilities with any kind of corporation that you start or LLC, but it's really kind of a tax situation that, that somebody on a tax such way in. But when you should start having attorneys in particular, if you're look for, that's different from every kind of business, if there's a lot

of regulation, et cetera, obviously you need it sooner rather than later. But let's say it's a services business or, you know, a small kind of business, if there's a lot of regulation, etc. Obviously, you need it sooner rather than later. But let's say it's a services business or a small kind of business like that. You really need somebody anytime you need to reach an agreement with somebody that is longer than a few months, and you're hiring them for some kind of services. There's confidentiality agreements, you want to make sure it's work for hire than anything that they produce is yours and you own it. There's some kind of statement of work. What do you expect out of them?

Let's sign that. And the lawyer can, obviously everybody gets really nervous about it because it could be expensive, but it's really money, A, well spent because it's building the foundation. That's like the foundation of your company. If you don't have it, something like that and something goes wrong, it can literally bury your entire company and bankrupt you.

So you need that support and foundation. Doing the agreements, there are instances where, you know, you can get forms from an attorney and then have just like the business deal terms as an exhibit and you just negotiate those business deal terms. And if anybody wants to change anything

to the form that's legal, that's when you loop in the lawyer. So it's not like they're drafting an agreement from scratch every time. So you pay a little more upfront, you know, to make sure you're protected in the end. And it is, it just always shocks me when people are not hiring attorneys to do this. It's like, if you can decipher what every single paragraph means, then okay, great. But 99.9% of the time you can't.

You don't know what you're signing, you know? It's like an agreement, it's like a puzzle piece, you know, you have to make. You don't know what you're signing. It's like an agreement, it's like a puzzle piece. You have to make sure it all fits with what you're doing. Yeah. For me, it was, I have a friend and a colleague and a mentor who is an employment law attorney and we were starting to hire more and more people. And she took a look at my website and she's like, you need certain things here for hiring in Washington state and you need to highlight these things. She's like, don't you have a lawyer? And I was like, you need certain like things here for hiring in Washington State and you need to highlight these things. She's like, don't you have a lawyer? And I was like, no. Then

she goes, you need a lawyer. And I was like, okay. And like, they were literally that was the moment where it was like, okay, I need somebody because it was it was like, I need an employment law attorney. And we have we have a team that we still work with who's phenomenal here in Seattle that is largely in charge of like, yeah, drafting the contracts. And you also don't have to put somebody on retainer immediately. It makes sense now for us at the size we're at to have somebody on retainer, but like, you don't have to pay a monthly retainer to a lawyer if you're still really small and you only need to your point these like ad hoc kind of things.

Yeah. But it's never gonna it's always gonna help to get that stuff locked down for sure. Totally. Yeah, unemployment law, of course. I mean, I represent a lot of C-suite women. There's so many women that have come to me like, I never negotiated my contract before. I'm like, what are you talking about? Like, people know your name, you're like a CEO or CMO, like, you know, it's like, you have to take care of this stuff. So I do a lot of that kind of work too. And the thing is, it's like, how's a company think that you're gonna protect them and represent them

when you can't do it for yourself? You also have to think about that. Like you're protecting something you're building. You have to have that money. It's set aside for legal. You have to. And definitely if you're raising money. Yes, oh, without a doubt.

Yeah, it's part of your choices. Yeah, if you're seeking VC, like you need, you need an attorney. Any money, angel, anything, yeah. Yeah, totally. So uncover your potential with the all new LG Gram Pro Laptop. Staying as light as a gram,

this powerhouse is here to elevate your workflow. Powered by Intel Core Ultra Processor with AI enhanced capabilities, you can keep your cool and staying control of your work with advanced power dual cooling. Welcome to the pro life with LG Gram Pro. Experience the power of pro. Get your LG Gram Pro today. Pro. Anytime, anywhere. We learned in our research, you are a single mom of two, you quit your job with no plan. Talk us through that process. Did you have any sort of net or was this like jump and wait for the net to appear? No, I had some kind of net. Yeah. it's like, you know, it's so funny

because I talk about this like scarcity mindset but then I always like make big things with abundance. Like my big moves are always like in an abundance mindset. And I had been with Jay for 17 years. I was really passionate about gender equality. I really wanted to make a difference there. You know, I could do my job, my job, it was challenging of course, and it was exciting, but I kind of knew it

with my eyes closed, and I was like, I wanted to challenge myself in a different way. And my kids were two and a half, and they're talking and stuff, but non-communicant beings can read your energy, you know what I mean? And it's like, I wanted to know that every time I left them, I was super energized at what I was doing. And I wanted to, you know, have a boy and a girl and I wanted to leave this world a much better place for her

because, you know, the stats are, they're still dismal. They're so much better than they were. I mean, not necessarily the stats of like what we're getting paid, etc. But the stats of how many of us are fed up and pissed off. That's amazing, because that means we can change things, right? And the amount of us building our own companies because we don't conform into a patriarchal kind of corporation or society in a working environment and doing it for ourselves and what you're doing what I've been doing, you know what I mean, all with the same mission and vision.

It's like to empower us to always have the abundance mindset and make decisions because money, you know, people say, you know, it doesn't buy happiness, but it does. It's a lot. You're a lot happier when you have choices. Yep. Advise you choices, advise you convenience, it buys you, you know, the headspace, like, so there's a lot of ways that it can help you and the world is going to be a much better place when women are making the same decision, the decision about their body because they can because they have the financial wherewithal

to do it. Yeah, I mean, everything you just said is like, yep, plus one on that. Yeah. And it provides you safety and stability. Yeah, exactly. And that's about the main point of like, you know, I jumped without a net. No, I know I did have money, you know,

and I did have 17 years of being with one of the most revered entertainers and entrepreneurs, you know, still, you know, in not only just the music industry, but, you know, just throughout business. And so I knew I wouldn't have a problem. And I never taken time off ever since I was 14 years old. I have had a job. I never even to law school everything and you know, had the means to like just sit back

and chill. Not like I did that though, unfortunately, but you know, I took like six months before I started the new job, but I was like so used to just working that I was just like, oh, you know, and about a month in, I was like, okay, I'm going to do, I'm going to take a t, you know, transcendental meditation course. I'm going to take a cooking course. I'm going to start doing these things, you know what I mean? And not look for a job yet. But yeah, I did, I had that net. I had been working with an executive coach too, who was like talking me through things and like, what are you scared of? What source that's going to happen? You can always get a job as a

lawyer. You can get a job as a competitor. You can do something that like, it's not so sexy to you right now, just to make you feel good until you're ready to do something sexier. I love what you just said. And I want to call it out because I think even when I asked the question and when our team, you know, built that question, I think of net as like, specifically like financial security, right? Or like immediate, like I know these force people that I can already work with. But I love that your version is also, I had years of experience. I had nearly two decades of experience doing this, right? I have a network that I can reach out to. I, you know, I might not know the exact plan, but really what you're saying is like, I bet on myself, like I had the confidence that I

had the credibility and I have the experience to actually make this work. And that when I do have these moments of, oh shit, I don't know what I'm doing. I actually will figure it out. Like I will use and rely on my previous experience and all of the hard work I've been doing to make this happen for myself. And I just really want to call that out because it's, it's how I wish more women took, quote unquote, risks is it's like, most of the things we deem risky are really not that scary. Like, because we're we doubt ourselves. Yeah, and I really give credit to my executive coach for that, you know, because she was like, why is it like, when have you ever not, like had a job or done really well? And it

was like, kind of like never. Right. I was like, okay, like, you know, why am I putting these limiting beliefs, you know, on myself? When have I not figured it out? And so while it was scary, it was scary. But at the same time, it was like, I made that decision like that, and did it the next day. Yeah, it was just, yeah, yeah, I needed to build, you know, I'd bet on myself, but like, build something for me, you know? Well, and to continue that kind of through line, one of the things that, you know, we met at a women's founders retreat, and you're really encouraging all line, one of the things that, you know, we met at a women's founders retreat, and you're really encouraging all of the women in the room to think strategically

about building a business, dreaming bigger when it came to partnerships. Why do you think so many women play small or smaller than they need to in entrepreneurship? I mean, look, we've been told our entire lives that we're not good enough and we don't do it. And we look outside and go like, oh, men are always our bosses. You know what I mean? So it's it's in us, right? We're also, you know, some of these things we come about, honestly, we're fed all this information, so we don't think that we deserve it

to like we're community driven by nature, too. And so it's like, OK, well, we just want everybody to get along and do, you know, and don't want to rock the boat so much. And those two things combined can prevent you from really going big in the first place. And then, you know, it's all the other barriers, right, that are not our fault. But we don't get as much money. all the other barriers, right, that are not our fault, but, you know, no one, you know, we don't get as much money. You know, we don't, you know, people don't think are the problems that we're solving for as big as we know that they are because they're solving for us. You

know what I mean? It's like, think about all the things that are going on with menopause. It's like every single woman is lucky if she gets to go through menopause because I mean, she's lived to a certain age. Right. and no one has ever talked about it until the last five six years it's crazy right I feel like there's so many of those things like endometriosis yeah miscarriage like oh all of these things that are somehow so common and yet so taboo I mean periods, periods, right? Like even that is like, so much of it is, is like so deeply impactful to women or people with uteruses on a day to day basis. And yet it's just like, nobody's talking about it or like women are talking about it, but men

are only starting to wake up to like, maybe we should work to solve this or help support people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wearing tampons that have not been like changed at all or not actually questioning what's in them. Like for a hundred years, I was just with a doctor who told us, you know, for a pap smear, the speculum was invented in Roman times. It's never changed. I just saw that too, because there was literally yesterday there was like the first FDA trials of an at home. Yes. Like the ability to check yourself at home for yeah, do a pap smear at home. And literally all the stats were like 90% of people would rather do it at home.

And I'm like, of course we would. It's so uncomfortable. It was like, I can't wait to get up in there and get those stirrups. And that's right. So no one ever. Right. Oh my god. Yeah.

So all those things and thank God because people were like, wait, why can't I solve this issue? If not me, then who? You know? Yeah. Yeah. We were talking about entrepreneurship. I imagine and I know from both my personal experience and also talking with so many women

that this is also C-suite exact level two of just like this doubting of our own confidence, this doubting of our own ability. And I don't know, tell me more about that of like, even as you rise up the ranks and you get more successful, there's still doubt. Yeah, I don't know that that's ever going to stop. And that's human nature in and of itself. Right. And so you can always hang up when you know, I know that people are trying to get rid of this imposter syndrome and using like, you know, using that term and I get it. But you know, it's, it's, you know, every day, it's just like, Oh, what am I doing? I mean, I've been my company is almost five years old. And sometimes I'm like, God, am I really good? You know, should I be doing this? You know what I mean? Because you just, you know,

everyone has these doubts. It's like, it could be anything. You just like didn't sleep well enough, you know, and be like, oh, or just had a bad call with a client. It's like, oh, this is not for me, you know. And so I just think it's human nature and you just accept it. And I think you really, instead of like beating yourself up over it, go to human nature. But I know that this is going to pass and I'm going to turn it around. And so that day you have to cancel a few meetings because you're not going to be on, then you cancel a few meetings and then make sure you're ready and that you're going to be on. And those times at ebb and flow, it might take a bit longer, but you'll get used to it and you'll build on those.

And just be really real with yourself why you're thinking these things. You know, everyone knows that one door shuts, another one opens, you know, we all know this. We've all been through it. It's proven itself time and time again. And so, you know, to have that confidence, it's a conscious decision on a daily basis, you know? Yeah.

I would love to talk about negotiating like a lawyer. So if I'm a small business owner and I'm brokering deals, what does that process look like for you? Are you going to someone in your network? Are you cold pitching? And when you see somebody like lose a deal, what happened? What are the no-nos to avoid? Like, again, if I'm a small business owner

trying to broker partnerships,, if I'm a small business owner trying to broker partnerships, what should I be doing? What should I not be doing from your experience? If you're a small business doing partnerships, you really need to dig down and first do all the research. You need to think about what's really going to drive your business, right? It's not just, oh, it's cool. It has to be, you want to captivate an audience that you do not yet have. You want to be able to utilize this partnership or sponsorship financially is great, but if there's also things that you can do in trade with them, you know, that helps you grow,

it's another way to think about it. Also, you want to make sure that you can do in trade with them, you know, that helps you grow. It's another way to think about it. Also, you want to make sure that you can grow, that they're going to do the things for you that will help propel the business, right? If that's a person or influencer or a celebrity partner, or if that's like, you know, you getting a sponsorship from a major airline or whatever that is. And you also have to make sure you're playing in your space, right? It's like if you don't have the visibility, then you can't go to, you know, Fortune 500 company, but you could go to a smaller company that's growing like you are and grow together and, you know, use each other for this. It's really at the end of the day, it's got to benefit both parties. It can't just benefit you. You're going to be wasting a lot of time going after the things people that do not benefit, you know, if you don't benefit them or they don't

benefit you time and energy because you're, you know, ultimately you're running your business day to day. Like this is an ancillary revenue stream and then do you have the mind share and the brain, you know, the brain capacity to do it and get it done. And then once you do get a deal, you also have to have the team to execute it. Like you gotta be able to execute on it. Like, do you have the people to do the social media and to do the content capture and do the, whatever it is that those deliverables are, you know?

You have to make sure that those are, you're able to get that executed and done efficiently and right so you don't, you know, leave a bad taste in your partner's mouth. One of the things you just said that I think is so important to discuss because it was something I struggled with is I don't want to work for free because that's against, you know, women's rights and against me as a business owner and what I value and like my time is valuable but at the same time you're just talking about a trade. And there have been times where, especially recently, I am more strategic of like, okay, I might speak at this event,

you don't have, you know, the budget, but you're going to pay me in these other ways. And even, again, even saying this, I cringe a little bit because it's like, there's only certain circumstances where this works. And especially I, it's so hard if you're a newbie business owner to figure out when is this a circumstance where I will get paid in connections, get paid in exposure, but like, when does it actually make sense to say, yep, I'm going to, you know, take this even if it's a trade versus no, I need to get paid. I again, it has to ultimately do with what you're getting exposed to and what you're getting out of it, you know, what they have to offer and you have to make

sure that it's real, you have to do the research and check under the hood and make sure that they're going to do those things. You know, it's yes, it's not something you want to do every day. But there's a lot of people who cut off their noses, bite their face because of it. And they want to get paid, it's yes, it's not something you want to do every day But there's a lot of people who cut off their noses bite their face because of it and they want to get paid where it's just Like this could be massive. So why not do it? I mean think of it like going on like the Today show or good morning America Like when I went on the Today show like I will always have been on the Today show now Like they don't pay you you know what I mean?? Oh, people don't realize that. Let's pause for a second. My mom literally asked me the other day, she's like, did they pay you to go on Good Morning America? And I

go, no, people pay 30, 50, $100,000 to go on Good Morning America. I'm like, Oh, no, and they don't pay for your flight out there typically either. So like, yeah, those kind of opportunities. Yeah, I want to be on today, I want to be on GMA, I want to be on NBC News or whatever. And like, yeah, you get to stay forever. I've appeared on the Today Show. And yeah, they're not paying you an appearance fee to be there. You should just be so lucky you get to be on the Today Show at all. Yeah, that's kind of the narrative. It's not, it's not like, not like, I'm using an example like that

to prove a point. It's gotta be something that's really big and really does benefit you. And another thing, if you're a products company and you can get your product in front of a bunch of people that are your audience and not normally your audience and giving that away and gifting, I know so many people who are like,

I'm not gonna gift my stuff away. I was like, that is not the right move. Like you, especially with social media, you don't have to tell people you want to post it, but a lot of people will. And when everybody on your feed starts seeing the same thing, you're like, wait, what is that thing? Why don't I have it? You know? There's a lot of opportunities in that. Totally. One of the kind of fun questions that I have for you, I imagine you've worked with a lot of, let's call them big personalities, which

you can find in any industry. How do you navigate relationships with big personalities? Well, I think you have to ask yourself why there is a big personality in the first place, right? Is it based on insecurity? Is it based the leverage? What's it based on? And what you want the end result to be? Like if, you know, ultimately, like, what is your goal when you go in and you're talking to these people? Like, you know, and you have to adjust from a negotiation standpoint, you have to adjust based on that. It's like, if this is my ultimate goal to get XYZ done, then I can't get my back up about certain things they say, or like passive aggressive behavior,

or taking things personally, because ultimately your goal is to get XYZ. It's not to freak out because they are, whether they're yelling at you or they're, you know, talking negatively to you or whatever it is. Like, you gotta keep your eye on the prize and not be emotional in that particular, you know, point. It's like, and I don't, and I hate it when, you know,

women are so emotional in business. And it's okay, you know, it's like, it's, you know, men are passionate, women are so emotional in business. And it's okay, it's like, men are passionate, women are emotional. But when you, in these particular instances, dealing with big personalities, like nothing is about you. You know what I mean? It's like, they're not thinking of you.

So know that and just go in and be like, the Michelle Obama, when they go low, you go high kind of thing. And just go in and get what you want out of it. Because ultimately, if you leave with that, you are going to be so much happier and successful, you're going to forget about all the other negative things or how hard it was or, you know, how much time you had to spend doing it, because you got what you needed, you know? Right.

All of them are different. Every one of them is different. Well, and you talked about like, yeah, not taking it personally. I don't know if you have any strategies for not doing that. Maybe it's just like viewing the work as work. But I think as someone personally who like cares very much about my work, it's very easy to take that. And she took it personally, the Michael Jordan meme, but like, it's very easy to do that. So do you have any tips or strategies for just like making the work work? Yeah, I mean, one of the things I say all the time, like, you know, especially to women who, like, maybe they work at companies or in there, like being told like, well, we just don't really

have the money, you know, and it's like, you take it personally. It's like, that's not your problem. That's their problem, right? And every time that somebody is disrespecting you by not paying you enough or disrespecting you by not like taking you seriously or not giving you the deal that you want, you know, don't think of it, it's about you. It's like, it's taking time away from the thing that you care the most about. For me, it's my two kids and like, I'll do anything for them. So I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to get take it personally about me. I'm going to be like, you're now like, you're now disrespecting my children.

And I'm just going to go and get the deal done, because I don't care. You know what I mean? And you just get much more cutthroat about it, which is really one of the best things you can do in a negotiation. Like people want what they can't have, you know, it's like, no is really one of the best things you can do in a negotiation. People want what they can't have. It's like, no. When you just say no to somebody or you're able to put it and frame it in a different perspective to be like, yeah, that's not going to work for me. And we're like, wait, what? What did you just say? Or maybe you can talk to other people like that, but you can't talk to me like that. So maybe you're in a bad

mood. Why don't we pick it up later? Like you can say these things and people are like, wait, what did you just say to me? And they get embarrassed, you know? And it makes you appear more valuable too. That's the thing that I wish women understood about negotiations too, is like, if you say, yeah, that's not going to work for me. Here's what is, or yeah, you take the control back in the situation. And there's also this moment where they're like, oh, shit, she has boundaries and she has standards and like, she must be really good at her job. If she's cultivated this level, like it makes them want you more. And on the off chance, it

doesn't well, it's not a company that you want to work for anyway. So exactly. Yeah, exactly. Like, you're hitting these like barriers and barriers. And, you know, I've had clients too are like, oh, once I get in there, it's going to be fine. I'm like, no, no, no, no, the red flags are right here. Right. They're right in front of your face. Like, look at them. It's fine if you want to, if you want to still go in there. But all I'm asking is to look at those red flags and know that that's going to be the same when you're in there, you know? Know that whoever you're dealing with, a deal shouldn't be that hard. If it takes too long and it's too hard, it's probably not meant to be. It's no different than any other relationship in your life. You know, if that is, you know, your partner in life, and if it's your boss, if it's anything, a friend, if it's difficult and you're just always like, oh, and anxious around it, it's probably not going to work.

Right. And you're going to have difficult times. But if yeah, the baseline is just like, this feels gross, or this feels hard all the time. Yeah, that's not a relationship worth keeping. And I say that from personal experience. Yeah, it's not. It's like, yeah. And, you know, as you know, and hope you're going to be on my podcast, taking care of

lady business, you know, what the theme is, and I interview all women, like entrepreneurs is the theme is, is that once you trust your intuition, it all feels right. When you go against it, every single one of them has said, when I went against it, something bad happened. I know. And we're lucky as women to have that female intuition. We have that sixth sense. It's like we know when things are not gonna work to our

advantage. If you're watching on YouTube, you just saw my face, which was just like this nod, but like a very knowing nod because yeah, I literally to your point, I'm not kidding. Every single time I did not listen to my gut, it came back to bite me in the ass every single time. So yeah, yeah. Could not agree more. I wanted to transition into talking about you as an angel investor.

I share that with you. It's a very exciting thing that I've started doing. But we have a lot of business owners who want to know from angel investors, what do you look for? Like, what do you look for in an entrepreneur? What do you look for in a business before you invest? I think what I look for in an entrepreneur is somebody who's self-aware, who knows what they are capable of and what they're not capable of, you know?

It's like, I know that I can grow a business, but I know that I've never scaled something from like, you know, 50, 100 people to 10,000. Like that to me is like so crazy. Like when you look at the Googles and things like, like who did that? Like, and to know that like there's a time when you, probably is a good time to step aside.

You're still the owner, you're still the founder, but maybe you're not the best to be the CEO to grow to those next levels, right? And or maybe you are the creative person and you started as a CEO, know when it's time to just do the creative. Like that to me is somebody I will want to be in business with. You're a visionary and you want to grow something really big and you're determined to do it. You got this far that you can go and ask people for money. But I also want to know that you are aware of your limits as well because not everybody can be everything.

You just can't. It's like, I'm not going to all of a sudden be a creative. I've been on the business side. I know how to marry art and commerce. I'm good at that, but I'm not all of a sudden going to go be a chief content or creative officer at my company because that's not what I do. You know what I mean? Well, it sounds like a lack of ego too. It's like, when do I need to give this up? Because that's one thing I see with entrepreneurs all the time. And something I've had to fight myself is it's like, sometimes we just feel like, no, it's our business, so I should know how to do this, or like, I want the control over it. And like, I think the smart move you can make is to your

point, figuring out, yeah, when do I need help from somebody else? Or when is it time to hand over the reins? Yeah. Yeah. And not do all the jobs, right? It's like, yeah, why are you doing the accounting when you are not an accountant? You know, you can hire somebody for $300 a month for that. And if you're not doing that, or why, why are you trying to accounting when you are not an accountant? You know, you can hire somebody for $300 a month for that. And if you're not doing that, or why are you trying to do all the legal stuff by yourself? Like, that's just not okay. You know, it's like understand how to really grow is to hire the people who are experts. You know, you're going to be learning some on the job, but you shouldn't be learning

whole new degrees on the job. You should not. Like, I don't want to learn how to build a website, you know. Right. I will say I think first couple years, you got to be scrappy. And then once you start getting building a kind of business where you are seeking like significant investment, yeah, it's time to start investing, pun intended, in somebody else or in another service, so that you're not handling all of that. You can do what you're actually good at.

Yeah, exactly. I would love to hear more about the Justice Department, which is your company and what you do, as well as your podcast. Thank you. So the Justice Department is a business strategy, business development consulting company that works with female founders to help them grow and scale their business in areas of consumer, retail, tech, basically everything, but like biotech, you know, and aerospace, you know, in all different companies. And what that means is that we help them, you know, for a period of time with a certain statement of work, get either, you know, more female investors on the cap table so they can,

you know, grow and scale their business be and have these women, you know, that are like championing and cheerleading for the company, which is what we like to do, right? We tell, we're, we control all of the purchasing power in the house. So if we're invested in it, we're going to buy it and tell all our friends about it. I help them with business strategy from any kind of statement of work that has to do, obviously, in any kind of entertainment

in the music industry, partnerships. I just put together a big celebrity partnership with a menopause brand. I helped turn to me the class and doing all their music strategy because they're fitness but you know music's ancillary in the background. I've helped Apricot find all their retail partners. I've helped Westborne get women on the cap table and get an SPV together and you know talk about their brand. I've helped Miss Grass, Siola, Miss Gall, like all these really great companies of women and like, you know, help them hyper

kind of grow when they don't eat like have a female and, you know, a co-founder. So it's like a pop up co-founder from the business strategy, business development side, which is different. A lot of people look at the marketing and branding side of things. But this is like that I even help them figure out the right attorneys to hire, right? Because it's like that's daunting and they think that they should hire some one big firm and the next thing you know they're paying 30 grand a month and they don't need to pay 30 grand a month.

You know, I'll tell you, you know, which, which trademark attorney to hire, which corporate attorney to hire and, and what you need. I act as like a de facto general counsel. And then I also have the law firm where I still represent some talent and I represent and help them with all of their deals, sponsorship, endorsement, building businesses, as well as a lot of female executives and helping them with their deals on the way in and unfortunately on the way out and a lot of female founded companies and kind of the stuff we were talking about earlier and in their kind of independent contractor needs,

etc. So it's all with the common vein of helping women get rich and helping them get more money. So it's like in case they were feeling like smaller or not worth it, I am here. As I've told one of my clients recently, she's like, I know you're not my therapist. And I was like, no, I have news for you. I'm your therapist. I'm your best friend. I'm your lawyer and executive coach all in one while I'm helping you with this deal, because I'm going to get you out of your own way and get you way more money. And you're going to get a big, you know, big invoice from me, but you're not going to feel

it because I've gotten you so much more money. Which that is the vibe. That is what we want always. And tell me about your online course as well. Oh yeah, and my podcast and my online course. So the podcast is called Taking Care of Lady Business and I started it because there's just so many terms that need to be demystified and like in business. And what really was the catalyst to me is I was on a call, was hired by a private equity company to help them navigate buying a publishing company in the music industry.

And I was on this call and they all kept talking about dry powder, dry powder. And thankfully I was on a call and I could look it up. I was like, what the hell is dry powder? And I'd look it up and it just means extra money. And I was like, these are the terms that drive women crazy and intimidate us and make us feel like we don't know what we're doing, you know, in all this. I thought cocaine. No, they weren't talking about cocaine.

I don't know what that is. It's so stupid. It's like, why did you say? I've never heard dry powder either. And we'll take a little bit. See? I'm literally going to open up a new tab, dry powder. Yeah.

And some are like- Cash or marketable securities. Okay? Yeah. Great. Yeah, more cash. So I was like, you know what? I know all these amazing women in VC who started their company.

You know, Karen Kahn from I Found Women, Beth Ferrer is a big VC. You know, all of these women who've done all these amazing things. And you know what other women wanna learn from other women. And so the whole point of the podcast is to get inspiration from them or hire them or get real tangible tips. If you can see it, you can be it and really get down to like things they did well,

things that they did not do well. So I completed my 100 episodes and now we're just about to start recording the next 10. And our friend Rebecca Minkoff was number 100. So that was awesome. I've had Sally Krawcheck on, I've had just Jenny Jost, you know, not Jennifer Justice, Jenny Jost and Jennifer Jost, you know, we're the first female billionaires, you know, just really amazing women in all different aspects.

And then, you know, so I knew that I was dealing with like and hitting a bunch of women that are probably 30 and above, right? They were starting companies or, you know, they have big deals to do or, you know, unless they're talent. But like, ultimately, I was like, you know, where we're talent. But like, ultimately, I was like, you know what, where we really are missing out though, is when you're first getting out of college and you get your first job offer, right? And like, how do you negotiate that?

And what is it entail? You know, it's no longer an hourly job. It's like, and this is where we're missing out. And this is like, that start is where it's really difficult to then recover from, in particular, if you stay at the same company for a very long period of time, right. And so what are the components of that? You know, it's not just your salary. It's not. And so, you know, there are other

components to that that you can help, you know, grow and faster because I'm sure you talk about amortization on here all the time. And amortized over a long period of time. You're missing out if you're not negotiating not just your salary, but the other deal terms that matter a lot, like your title, like equity, like bonus, et cetera. You're gonna be way behind your coworkers

and nobody cares if you negotiate your deal or not, right? If you don't, they're like, great, sign here, but you should try and eat, you know what I mean? And so this is the course of like talking about those different ways and different like items and things that you should be negotiating that help you grow. And then, you know, ways that you can move it forward. And it's called Be the Boss of Your Career.

And so we'll launch it around March, April. I'm excited. Amazing. Because I just have felt like that is an age range that I've been missing. And I really want to help with all of my experience of negotiating thousands of employment agreements to help them see how they can do it by themselves until they can hire attorneys, which I definitely think they should be hiring if they're a VP or above for sure.

And I will echo as someone who also teaches women, largely younger women, how to negotiate their salaries. You can negotiate. You've been told that you don't have a lot of power and that you just should be happy to have a job. You can negotiate your first, second, third jobs, et cetera. Don't feel like you can't. And it's also good practice. I also say that success in a negotiation doesn't mean you got what you wanted. It meant that you tried and you prepared and you walked into the conversation as well prepared as you could be. That's success. So yeah, I want to echo everything you just said. It's always so important to negotiate, but especially earlier in your career.

Yes, yes, for sure. Well, I am so thrilled to just have you on the show and to be able to share all of your resources. I just want to thank you for your time. All of those resources we will link down in the show notes. And yeah, what's your website? Where can people find all of your resources? So it is www.ththejusticedept.com

because believe it or not, that government agency called the Justice Department did not buy that domain name. And I got it on GoDaddy for $14.99. We love it, but you got it. So it's mine. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you.

Thank you to JJ for joining us. You can listen to her podcast, Taking Care of Lady Business, wherever you're listening right now. We appreciate you being here as always, Financial Feminist. Thank you for your support of the show. You can subscribe, you can leave us a voicemail if you have questions, and you can share this episode with someone who you think would love it. Thank you for your support of us and the Financial Feminist Movement. I hope you have a kick-ass week. Bye.

Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristin Fields, associate producer, Tameisha Grant, research by Ariel Johnson, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Medcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel, Amanda LeFeu, Elizabeth McCumber, Masha Bakhmakeva, Taylor Cho, Kaylin Sprinkle, Sasha Bonar, Claire Karonin, Darrell Ann Ingman, and Janelle Reisner, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton,

photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100k team and community for supporting this show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100k, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.