Financial Feminist - 192. How to Protect Your Money and Family with Estate Planning Expert Pamela Maass Garrett

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Facing our own mortality isn't easy, but it's one of the most important conversations we can have for the sake of those we love. In this episode, I sit down with Pamela Maass Garrett, an award-winning estate planning attorney and CEO of Law Mother LLC, to unravel the mysteries of estate planning. We dive deep into why everyone—not just the wealthy—needs a will or trust, especially if you have kids or digital assets that need protection. This isn't just about money; it's about ensuring peace of mind and safeguarding your legacy Pamela’s Links: Download a free copy of Pamela’s best-selling book: “Legally Ever After” Law Mother website Instagram Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/192-how-to-protect-your-money-and-family-with-estate-planning-expert-pamela-maass-garrett/ Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Are you registered to vote? https://vote.org/ Special thanks to our sponsors: Thrive Causemetics Get an exclusive 20% off your first order at thrivecausemetics.com/FFPOD Squarespace Go to www.squarespace.com/FFPOD to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. Masterclass Get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com/FFPOD. Rocket Money Stop wasting money on things you don’t use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to RocketMoney.com/FFPOD. This is Small Business Check out This Is Small Business, an original podcast from Amazon, on your favorite podcast app.

While you can't control when it's going to happen, you can control what your loved ones are going to have to go through, what their experience is going to be, what your real legacy is. And I feel like that gives a lot of peace of mind and ownership and empowerment over the whole process, which makes it much more comfortable to go through. It's officially spoopy season, everybody. And if you're not chronically online like I am, I had to explain to my partner the other year what spoopy was.

Okay, so they're spooky, right? Spooky is actually scary, right? Like Kathy Bates in Misery or Haunted Corn Maze, which I did when I was a kid and was literally forever scarred. Have you done a haunted... I hate getting scared. That's a quick side note. I hate it.

I will not do haunted mansions. I don't watch horror movies. I have absolutely no interest in doing that. Even talking about it, literally, I'm like goose bumping as I speak. Definitely didn't watch goose bumps growing up. Like, don't like getting scared. So that's spooky. Spooky is horror movies and scary stuff. Spoopy is cute spooky.

So we're talking like the cute little ghosts that like have the big eyes and like are cute, like little animations. We're talking like Charlie Brown Halloween. We're talking children trick or treating, right? Spoopy. Spoopy is the cute part of Halloween. And I love Spoopy. So it is Spoopy. Spoopy is the cute part of Halloween, and I love Spoopy.

So it is Spoopy season. I realize now, saying Spoopy so many times, I'm at the point where Spoopy doesn't sound like a real word, because it kind of isn't. But yeah, it's Spooky season, it's Spoopy season, so to all those who celebrate, welcome. In the theme of Halloween, we are talking about something a little scary, which is death, but really estate planning. to all those who celebrate, welcome. In the theme of Halloween,

we are talking about something a little scary, which is death, but really estate planning. I know it's not a fun topic. I know it's not exciting to talk about your death or somebody who loves death, but this is one of those personal finance things that just is so overlooked and has a huge impact, not just on your money, but on your mental health, on your life. just is so overlooked and has a huge impact,

not just on your money, but on your mental health, on your life. The last thing I want you dealing with when you are in a time of grief and stress and chaos is wondering what the person you loved who's died wishes are, or wondering where your kid is going to go and who their legal guardian is. There are so many things that you don't realize are stressful until you've been through it, until you've had someone close to you who's died. And also, you don't want that experience

for somebody else. I need you to have an estate plan. I need you to make sure that you're covered. And I also want to debunk the misconception. We talk about it in the episode too. People believe you only need a will if you have a bunch of money, or you like have a nice house, or you have a lot of stuff. You need a will, period.

Every single person needs a will, but you especially need a will if you have children, because I need you to assign legal guardianship. Like this is so crucial and so important. So we have an estate planning attorney on the show today to talk to us more about it. Pamela Mas Garrett is an award winning estate planning and asset protection attorney and CEO of Law Mother LLC, a law firm she founded to help parents protect their futures and loved ones. Pamela is also the author of the bestselling book Legally Ever After and is on a mission to

simplify legal, tax, and financial strategies for parents. And she also has over 2 million followers on social media. We get into estate planning, what it is, when you need it, and how to know when it's time to bring enough professional to help. We talk about planning for your children or dependents. Why just being married doesn't mean that your spouse will be taken care of in the event of something happening to you. We give you the too long didn't read on wills and trusts and how to get more comfortable talking about subjects that can feel really scary because you have to.

You have to if you want to protect your money and your loved ones. And we also talk about what happens to your assets should you die and what happens to digital assets like crypto, NFTs, or anything that is in the digital sphere. So super important episode. Please send it to your family. Please send it to people in your life.

Allow this to open up a conversation for you. And without further ado, let's get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. This episode of Financial Feminist is sponsored in part by Rocket Money, This Is Small Business, Masterclass, Thrive Cosmetics, and Squarespace. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that tracks your spending, cancels unwanted subscriptions, and lowers your bills. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com.

This Is Small Business podcast gives you the expert tips you need to start, grow, and succeed in business. Listen to This is Small Business on your favorite podcast app and take your business to the next level. Learn from the best to become your best with Masterclass. Get 15% off any annual membership at Masterclass.com. Thrive Cosmetics lets you refresh your everyday look with foolproof vegan products made with clean, skin-loving ingredients. Get an exclusive 10% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com slash ffpod. Build a beautiful website to get your message out into the world with Squarespace. Go to squarespace.com slash ffpod to save 10% off your first website or domain purchase. I am in Colorado, Inglewood, Colorado. Oh, cool. Yeah. I have not been there, but I've

been to Denver quite a few times and I really like it. So suburb of Denver. Oh, cool. Yeah. I have not been there, but I've been to Denver quite a few times. And I really like it. So suburb of Denver. OK, cool. Practically the same. It's really cute. The little Union Station downtown, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah.

Yeah. Very cute. And you're in Washington? I'm in Seattle. Yeah. Amazing. And it's beautiful. We've had a heat wave.

So it's been like 90 degrees in Seattle, which is like, just, yeah, very hot for us. I am so excited to dive right in with you. We like to ask guests who have financial backgrounds or who are going to talk to us largely about personal finance and money, what their first money memory is. Yeah. So my first memory around money is back when my best friend on our street came over to play Barbies for the first time. And she brought over her whole collection of Barbies, which was, you know, a shoe box with two Barbies in it. She came into my room and I had, you know, a whole tub of Barbies and like the dream house. And I just remember her being in so much

awe and feeling really sad, you know, sad for her wanting her to have more Barbies. And I think that was kind of that first moment where I had the shift in my mind, where it wasn't just focused on me. And I was really focused on her and her having more and realizing, hey, you know, my parents, you know, definitely didn't have a lot of money growing up. They were self-made and they were penny pinchers. They were budget. So I definitely didn't have all the toys in the world. But I think up until that point, you know, as kids were so focused on what toys we get and us, and that was kind of a big turning point for me. I don't know, because we've asked this question quite a few times on the show. I don't know if

everybody, anybody's talked about like how their money memory was really about like somebody else's realization that maybe their financial state was not what yours was. I find that so fascinating. Yeah. And I think, you know, we lived in kind of a middle-class neighborhood in Mesa, Arizona, and I had a four-bedroom house and it was a family of four. And my best friend had eight brothers. And so in that same size house. And so it was just, it's so characterized that time, she would always want to come over to my house.

And it was just such that moment of like, her clothes and just constantly in my face. And I just remember focusing so much and thinking about that. And then it shifted a lot because we moved a few years later to an upper middle class neighborhood. And I think that reason it stands up so much is then I became my best friend. Like I was the poorest one. I was the outsider.

I felt less than. And so it really influenced a lot of my limiting money beliefs that I had for a lot of years. How old were you around this time? Did you mention that? Yeah, I want to say I was thinking about that the other day. I want to say I was, you know, it was like before elementary school, like so right before we started elementary school. Yeah, so probably five, maybe four or five. Five or six. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. It's crazy. That's what I love and hate about asking this question is it's like you just realize it's so much about how we view money or so much about the narratives that we believe about money have everything to do with like our childhood experiences around it.

Just like every other trauma, I guess, but it's just so interesting to me. Yeah, absolutely. So estate planning, kind of a dark subject. My job before I was running her first 100K full time was marketing an app around Will's Trust and life insurance. And it was a very, very difficult thing to do because no one wants to think about their death. And they definitely don't wanna think about others around them dying. So what brought you into this world?

Why are you passionate about it? Yeah, so I started my career as a lawyer, as a deputy district attorney. And if you think of law and order, that was my life. I was in court every day. I was in trial every week. I loved it. I loved serving my community.

I loved being in court. But I started to see something, Tori, that I didn't like. I saw what happened when people had no estate plan in place. So I saw, you know, crimes or car accidents, and I saw kids end up in foster care. I saw families end up in these lengthy probate court battles. And I started to ask those questions like, why is this and what can we do? And that's what's first got me very interested in estate planning and helping people really protect the people they love, protect themselves, and get that great start, get that plan in place. I think that that is one of the misconceptions. Maybe it's just about, of course, life in general,

is like none of us plan, of course, to unexpectedly die. But again, because I ran marketing for this company, I know that I think the number one cause of death for people under 40 is accidental. I don't know if that's still true, but like, there's all these stories of, you know, someone in a skiing accident or someone, it's a car accident. And I think that, of course, we don't want to think about it. But it's then worse if it happens because we haven't done anything to plan for it. Absolutely. Yeah. I think you touched on a major point. It's one of those things people

tend to put off until it's too late, and then it's too late. Right. So when it comes to working with clients who are uncomfortable talking about death, how do we get them comfortable talking about it or thinking about it? Yeah. So I feel like this comes up a lot because I work with couples. talking about death, how do we get them comfortable talking about it or thinking about it? Yeah, so I feel like this comes up a lot because I work with couples. And so a lot of times the wife will set up the appointment and the husband will show up and he'll have his arms crossed and just be like angry and pissed that he's there and he doesn't want to do it. And I get that like I understand the discomfort. And I think a lot of the discomfort

around death comes from us not being able to control it. You know, it's a scary thing because it's completely uncontrollable. We don't, like you were saying, we don't know when it's going to happen. And so what I like to do is really share how estate planning allows you to have some control around your death. While you can't control when it's going to happen, you can control what your loved ones are going to have to go through, what their experience is going to be, what your real legacy is. And I feel like that gives a lot of peace of mind and ownership and empowerment over the whole process, which makes it much more comfortable to go through.

Yeah, it was one of the things we talked about of think of it as like the least selfish thing you can do, like the most selfless thing you can do, which is think about your own death, but only for the people who are going to have to deal with it. Obviously, when you die, you don't have to deal with it anymore. But your family does. Your spouse or your children or whoever is, you know, in charge of your stuff and your money and where it all is, I think that is one of the most selfless things you can do to make sure that you are making it easier

when you die and not harder. Yeah, I think selfless and a gift is right on. You know, the people who put a plan in place, that's what they're doing. They're giving that greatest gift that people they love. Yeah. And I have been in the situation with family members who had it, and I've been in situations with family members who did not. And speaking from personal experience, and I think we all have the story of somebody who did not or had, you know, not enough in place. And there was a lot of conflict in the family because you're in a very emotional time. There was fighting over assets and stuff and it's just not a fun experience. So you're also

preventing not just like, you know, the lack of coordination of like, where is everything and what's happening and then do I have to go to court to figure it out? But also, like the infighting with your family. Yeah. And a lot of times that type of infighting comes from the simplest things, right? So I know in my own family, I had a family member who wasn't clear about wishes and you know, it was like a very low cost item that caused relationships to be strained that are still strained today. Yep. Because there wasn't a clear direction and people had different views. Yeah, for us, it was photo albums, which, you know, not worth any sort of financial money,

but worked a lot in terms of memories and emotions. Your book, your channel, you talk a lot about living trust, trust, wills. Can you explain the difference between a living trust and a will and the pros and cons of both? Yeah. So I like to describe it as far as what happens for your loved ones when you pass away, what's the experience going to be like? And for a will, the pro of a will is they're quick and easy to set up, relatively inexpensive. The cons is you're dying with everything in your name. So when you're dying with everything in your name, typically the probate court is going to get involved and they're going to transfer everything from your name. They're going to interpret the will and transfer it to the people you love. And that whole probate process takes

time, costs money, and it really varies based on states. Like I know where you're at, probate is a little bit more efficient than where I'm at. On average across the country, you know, it takes between nine months and two years, costs five to nine percent of the state. And then on top of that, you know, your loved ones are going through this grieving process and they're having to deal with lawyers and this time and assets get lost. And then it's public, the probate process is public. So all of your private information gets

out there. And with a will, you can't really do a lot of advanced strategies that you can't do with a trust. So the pros and cons of a trust, we kind of just went through with a trust. It's a legal document. You're making the transfer in life. So you're holding all of your assets in the name of your trust. And you make that transfer, you have full control. So the pro is it avoids probate. So it saves that time and money. And you can do more advanced strategies. You can provide, you know, if you're a business owner, you can do some more advanced strategies. You can do asset protection. You can set your kids up for success. And then the con is it does take a little bit more time and energy to put in place in front.

It's that short term for the long term. You're spending a little bit more money up front. You're taking a little bit more time up front, but then you're saving your loved ones the time and money down the road. If I'm a listener, I'm going, okay, when do I need this? And I can answer one of those questions again, with my with my background of doing this for a bit. I think there's just this misconception that like, I only need a will or trust if I'm wealthy, if I have a bunch of money. But for anybody who is a parent, you need a will in order to assign legal guardianship. Like that was, again, one of the things we talked about at the company I worked for that people don't realize is, okay, let's say you do die, and especially both of you, let's

say you're in a car together and you get in a car accident. If you have, let's call it an interesting family dynamic where there are certain people that you do not want your children to go to, should you die, you need to make sure to have that in writing. So I think of that as a really interesting example of like anybody with children, you need a will to assign legal guardianship. It's not about assets in that case necessarily. It's not about how much money you have or if you own a home or if you have millions of dollars. It's about protecting your children and making

sure they're going to the people you want them to go to. What other cases do you need an estate plan for? Yeah. So I always joke that when my kids turn 18, I'm going to show up in their room telling them happy birthday and then handing them a medical power of attorney and a durable power of attorney to sign. So, you know, we just got this call the other day from a mom whose daughter went off to college and didn't have her EpiPen. She was out of state, ended up in the hospital.

And mom and dad are trying to call the hospital to get information because the best friend calls and the hospital is like, hey, we don't, your child's 18, we can't tell you anything, HIPAA. And so, once you turn 18, when you're an adult, there's some basic documents you should get in place that we're always talking about, just the medical, at least the medical power of attorney, who's going to make your medical decisions if you cannot, your financial power of attorney who can step in for you financially. And then, yeah, you know, life stages, you know, when you own a business, if you want to make sure your

business has a plan for when you pass away that it's not going to end up stuck in the probate process and can carry on. When you own real estate, when you get married, and when you have children, those are other times when it's really important, you really have things that you want to set in place. And then I have a lot of clients who are single, and it's that incapacity planning. If I was to become incapacitated, I want this person to step in and make my decisions. I don't want to leave it to chance. And I think we all remember hearing about kind of Britney Spears and what happened with her and you being the one that's in charge of, hey, if anything ever happened to I'm setting up upfront,

I don't want it to go to chance. And I will also admit for you, dear listener, even me, the multimillionaire financial expert, I don't have a full estate plan yet. It's on my docket of things to do, but I get it. You get busy, life gets hard, you don't wanna think about it. I'll get to it eventually.

So it is one thing that this interview is forcing me to think more about, which is important. Can you name every single subscription you have? Like, I can't name mine. I'm I'm out here with so many streaming services and I feel like I am paying for everything. And over 74 percent of people are like me and have subscriptions they've forgotten about.

With Rocket Money, I don't have to remember every subscription or worry about forgetting any or worrying about canceling some because I can see them all laid out in front of me. And Rocket Money is a personal finance app that can help you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitor your spending and help lower your bills so you can grow your savings. They give you a clear view of your expenses across your accounts, you can get alerts if bills increase in price, and their new goals feature automatically saves money for you. You know that I love automating your savings. That's like the number one thing I suggest, and I love Rocket Money because it's making

it easy. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and have saved a total of 500 million in cancel subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all the app's features. Stop wasting money on things you don't use. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash ffpod. That's rocketmoney.com slash ffpod, rocketmoney.com slash ffpod. If you're trying to start a business, you need a website. That was actually the first investment I ever made in her first 100K was buying a domain, getting a website,

making sure that people could actually find me in my services. And we chose Squarespace. Squarespace is a super easy to use website platform. It creates beautiful websites without you needing to know how to code at all. You can sell content on your site by adding a paywall to sell memberships or courses.

You can also manage your clients and invoices on Squarespace. And you can also make sure with their flexible payment tool that you get paid via credit card, PayPal or Apple Pay. Whether you're just starting out or managing a growing brand, Squarespace makes it easy to create a beautiful website, engage with your audience, and sell anything from products to content time, all in one place, all on your own terms. Head on over to squarespace.com slash FF pod for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash FF pod to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. You also talk about updating your estate plan. When should that happen? I imagine big life events as well.

Yeah, so I would say at least every three years or after big life events. Marriage, purchasing new assets, business, kids, all of that. I don't mean to go into fear-mongering, but I kind of do. You've mentioned a little bit of what happens if we don't have an estate plan. Give me the full thing. From start to finish, if we don't have one, what then happens? And what toll does that take on our families? Yeah, I would say so the first is if you become incapacitated. So, a lot of us in our lifetime will. And so what's going to happen is it's going to go to court and the judge is going to decide, hey, who's going to manage your financial and health decisions. I don't know if you remember the Terry Shaivo case back in the 90s, but in that case, she was a young woman, had cardiac arrest,

she was married and she was on life support for several years in a vegetative state, no chance of survival and no chance of regaining consciousness. And her husband wanted to take her life off life support at about the seven year mark. Her parents did not. And it became a big political issue, right?

Most of us, it won't become a big political issue, but it was litigated for many years. This poor woman was kept on life support. Eventually she was allowed to pass. So the reality is for most of us, it won't become a big political issue. It touches on what we talked about before, that it will become a family headache.

And then when we pass away, it goes through the probate process, the government's taking control, a stranger is making decisions, and they might not be the decisions you want. And you touched on this before, who would raise your kids? Worst case scenario, kids can end up in foster care, which no parents want, and being raised or money going to people we don't want in the way that we don't want. All the things you've worked so hard to grow throughout your life, making sure that that's preserved in the way that you want it to be. Yeah, I forgot about the Terry Shiebert case until you just said that. If you don't know,

again, listener, what that is, I would maybe just do a little bit of research because I remember hearing, I think it was on Oprah. If I remember correctly, it was like a big deal on Oprah and my mom watched Oprah growing up and so that's where I remember seeing it. The difference between a trust and a will we've kind of talked about, but can we talk about like, again, I think there is this misconception around like trust funds or again, you need a bunch of money. When do you need a trust versus a will? Yeah, so I really don't subscribe to this idea that you need to have a certain amount of money

to qualify for a trust. It's really about your choices and who you are and what your values are and what you want your loved ones to go through when you pass away. I will say, you know, I have a client that I set up a trust for who works at Walmart, and she owns her home and she wanted to get it set up for her kids. I have big tech people. I have every spectrum. So you don't need to have a certain amount of money to set it up. It's about your values, your choice, what you want your loved ones to go through. I will say in certain states, once you get over a certain value, it does become very like an economic, it makes sense to do it. So in Colorado, that's 75,000 if you have over 75,000 assets, but I have clients that have less that put it in and clients that have more. So it's really about

that experience you want your loved ones to go through if you want it to be quick and easy and you want everything protected. Another misconception I think, and especially from your work is that a lot of people just think that their spouse may automatically have authority over what happens to you and your possessions, and whether you become incapacitated or you pass away. And even with the Terry Shivo case, that's proof that things are a lot messier than that. So can you outline some circumstances where the spouse might not be in charge or how people can be proactive in thinking about that?

Yeah. So I think you touch on the Terry Shivo case and incapacity. It's not a default if you become incapacitated that your spouse is going to step in. And if anyone related to you challenges it, the judge will listen to it. And then it's just based on who's the judge, you get what they decide. And then when you pass away, depending on if you have children from a prior marriage, from this marriage, if you have no children, if your parents are alive, every state really has different laws around it.

And some states based on your years of marriage and your parents will receive a certain amount, some it will go to your kids. So you really need to set it up so that it goes in the way that you want. And especially for blended families, a lot of times children get inadvertently disinherited because parents don't realize that. And so you're the first to die, you're remarried, you have new stepchildren, everything goes to your spouse.

Then the spouse dies, it goes to your stepkids and your kids receive nothing. So really making sure that you understand that. And then at some point you and your spouse are gonna pass away. And so, you know, having a plan for that. And then in some states there is common law marriage and you may pass away and the person you're with

that you're living with may argue that you were married after the fact or you both pass away and the person you're with that you're living with may argue that you were married after the fact or you both pass away and the kids may argue that you were married. And so, if you're in a long-term relationship and you're in one of those states, it's important to address it. Yeah, I was going to ask about like domestic partnerships or like if there is any legal difference should somebody die or become incapacitated between legal marriage and the other kinds of partnerships that might be approved like legal under the law? Yeah, absolutely. And it varies by state. And so if you are in a domestic partnership, and we really saw this during COVID, where people were in partnerships, and they wanted their spouse or their partner or their girlfriend

or boyfriend at their side at the hospital and they weren't allowed in, right? Or they didn't receive what they thought they should. So yeah, if you're in any type of partnership and you want to make sure that partner is treated under the law as someone that receives the benefits that you want them to, it's important to plan for that and put that in place. You talk here about your legacy framework. Can we go through that acronym? Yeah.

So in my book, Legally Ever After, I talk about the six-step plan, and the six-step plan spells the word legacy. So the first L is legal guardians, which we've touched upon. And you want to name legal guardians so that if something were to happen to you, it's clear who would take care of your kids. And if not, the default would be a judge would decide. E is economic support. And one of the easiest ways I recommend getting started is grabbing a file folder and putting

everything that you have together and letting someone you know, love and trust know where it is. And that could be a digital file or it could be a hard manila file. One of my friends lost her father unexpectedly a few years ago and he had nothing in place. And so she didn't know what assets he had. So she had to go through all of his mail, computer files, boxes, trying to find what he had and where it was, calling old employers. She's married, she has children, she was working a full-time job. She described that whole process as a full-time job, trying

to figure out what assets he had. And so just doing that, you know, you talked about, Tori, that you haven't done your plan yet. Even just doing that step right now of organizing everything and telling someone you know where everything is, will take a huge burden off of them. I've done that for my parents. My parents know where things are and they know a general outline of what I would want.

They also have, for me, they have what they jokingly call the binder, except it's not really a joke. It's a whole, it's a huge binder. And they've been talking to me about the binder for the past like eight years. And they're like, here's where it is. Here's where whole, it's a huge binder. And they've been talking to me about the binder for the past, like eight years. And they're like, here's where it is. Here's where all our accounts are. And again, like it doesn't sound sexy, but I am, I just have so much peace of mind knowing that when I am an emotional wreck, and I am completely so exhausted and tired when I lose my parents that that's not

something I'm going to have to think about. So the binder I highly, I highly suggest. Yeah. And I love that. Like communication is such an important piece, which I'll touch on in a second. G is guidance. So we all deal with employee handbooks at some point in our life. That is your handbook for your life. What are your wishes? If you're a parent, it's your parenting handbook. What are your educational values, your spiritual values, your financial values? What do you want passed on? If you're single without kids, what are your values around your decisions?

If you are end of life, around your funeral, all of that. A is asset protection, where it really comes into play if you own a business, if you have people that you want to receive things in an asset protected way to protect from future divorces, future fraudulent credit verse. C is carry through, communicate, and update, which we just touched on, Tori. Your parents have done a great job communicating with you.

These plans only work if you share them with the people you love. And the silent generation really didn't want to talk about it. And I know you do such a good job in your podcast and I love your book of having these conversations, having people talk about it. These plans only work if you carry through, you communicate communicate and you keep it up to date. And then why is your legacy? So when you pass away, your loved ones are gonna miss you and they're gonna want more to remember you by besides your estate planning binder,

the binder that we talked about. They're gonna want your insights and your stories and all of that. So with our clients, we do a legacy interview at the end of the process where we're asking them those questions and we record it and we save it in their file for their loved ones. And we've had generations of people coming back to us and saying, wow, this was so meaningful. So with technology these days, I've got on Zoom with my parents,

had them start recording advice for my kids. So these kinds of things really do make a big impact. That's really nice. That's really nice. Well, because yeah, you get caught up in the like, yeah, what is the legal documents of it all, but you it's easy to forget that there's actual people with stories and memories that you also want to pass on to. I love that. That's really nice. You know me, I love Thrive Cosmetics. You all are in my comments and in my DMs asking me what my lipstick shade is.

It's Thrive Cosmetics. The lipstick I wear all the time that is giving very like fall burgundy color, but I wear it year round, it's Thrive Cosmetics. And it doesn't leave. Like, it's Thrive Cosmetics. And it doesn't leave. Like, it's a lip stain. So when I eat, when I drink, I still have the stain on my lips. It's not going anywhere. I also pair it with my new favorite mascara from them, which is their liquid lash extensions. It's like a tube mascara. So it doesn't like rub

off. It just like schleps off, if that makes sense. And it's like, I can't believe I lived without it. Truly. It's my new favorite thing in my makeup routine. Brighten up your fall look with Thrive Cosmetics Luxury Beauty that gives back. Right now you can get an exclusive 20% off your first order at thrivecosmetics.com. For 20% off your first order. Starting a business can feel really, really hard and growing a business can be even harder. Like how do you talk about your products without feeling salesy? How do you maintain the quality of your products as you scale?

And how do you really know you're ready for the next step of your business? Well, there's a great podcast that'll help with that, and it's called This Is Small Business. There's a recent episode called From Concept to Reality, Building and Validating Your Business Idea, and it talks all about this. And I know there's so many of our community members who are stuck in the ideation phase, who want to be business owners, but are trying to figure out how to evaluate their ideas, decide if it's worth pursuing, and figure out what it takes to turn them into a successful business. This is Small Business answers so many of these kinds of questions, questions all entrepreneurs have. So whether you're dreaming of starting your business,

looking to take a part-time side hustle full-time, or maybe you're a few years in and you're ready to grow, this show covers it all. Learn more about how to start and grow your small business. Check out This is Small Business, an original podcast from Amazon and your favorite podcast app. And a big thanks to This Is Small Business for sponsoring our show. Okay, talk to me about debt. Can debt get passed on? How do we protect children from inheriting their debt? Tell me all about that. I also think I know that if you are a co-signer on a student loan and somebody dies, you still

have to pay your student loans, which I think blows a lot of people's minds. So even in death, you cannot get away from paying off your student loans. Yeah. So you bring up a good point. It depends on the debt and it depends on kind of co-signing. So federal student loans, typically if someone hasn't co-signed, those go away when you pass away. So that's a nice benefit there.

And then, private, usually it's gonna collect against the estate, your real estate, if you owe a mortgage, the estate is gonna, when the house is sold, it's gonna have to be paid off. Other types of debt, typically you're gonna have to pay from the estate, from the overall. So I think from a conversation around protecting from debt, what to do, it's, you know, being clear what's there and having that organized and being able to communicate that.

And then as you mentioned, Tori, being very careful what you co-sign, because if you are a co-signer and that person passes away, that is something that you're going to be on the hook for, which is a shock to people. So when we're talking about all of these things around, of course, estate planning and trusts, we haven't touched on life insurance yet. Like, talk to me about the importance of life insurance. And I also would love to talk about things like indexed universal life insurance, which people often say is an investment, but I think is a complete scam. So talk to me about the importance of life insurance and which kind should we be getting? Yeah. So when it comes to life insurance, I'll just disclaimer here,

I don't sell insurance. I always think you should do your research. As Tori mentioned, there's a lot of scams out there and there's a lot of unethical practices. So you really want to work with licensed, reputable people who have a good reputation, understand everything that's involved. And to your last question around debt, a lot of families purchase insurance to cover that, right? So that when they pass away, there is going to be insurance money to pay off all their debts and for their kids to have a meaningful amount of money that will help them out. So I always say term life insurance is something to look into because they're low fees, they are affordable, and especially in your wealth building years, they are gonna be

something that is gonna cover you. So if I was to pass away right now, I personally want to make my husband's a stay- away right now, I personally want to make my husband's a stay at home dad. I want to make sure he's covered. I have two kids. I want to make sure they're covered. So I have a big policy on myself that's a term policy that is during these wealth building years that I just know I get on a plane and I'm like, if something goes down, I know my husband and kids are going to be taken care of. They're not going to have to do a go fund me. And it's really inexpensive, you know, less than 100 bucks a month. You can get term life insurance policies for your children.

A lot of times there are some innovative things people do around that because then they're locked in. So then if they later have something that excludes them, they get that kind of benefit. When it comes to whole policies, IULs, all the more advanced strategies, it is much more complex. It is, I would just say, be cautious. Like you mentioned, Tori, you really want to be aware of the fees, aware of the opportunity cost.

Are whole policies useful for certain high net worth of individuals who are facing estate taxes? Absolutely. Are there some whole policies or IULs that might for specific situations be advantageous? Yes, but I would say for the vast majority of people, they're gonna really wanna do that cost benefit analysis and work with a professional, trust people like Tori

to help you really do that cost benefit, do that comparison between is your money better spent somewhere else? And I'll be even more direct, just don't. Like, no, the average person listening to this show, 99% of you term life as exactly what it's for. And we always say life insurance is for life insurance and investing is for investing.

You're getting life insurance for the life insurance benefits, not as an investing vehicle. And especially if anybody is out here saying, Oh, use an IUL instead of your 401k. You don't have a financial advisor, you have a life insurance salesman. And the reason they're telling you that is because they make massive commissions off of you signing up. So yeah, don't do it. It's just not worth it. You have better ways to get rich and other avenues. So I am listening and I even as myself, I know I'm going to need to go to an attorney. Maybe you and I should talk after this. I know because my situation is complex enough.

I own a business. I'm a multimillionaire. I don't have any dependents. I don't own property. I just know that my situation is going to probably need an estate attorney. Where can we go? Are the apps, like the one I worked for, legit? Tell me for the average person, what should I go do? Okay, I need an estate plan, I need a will to assign legal guardianship. What is the cheap but gets the job done version?

And then what's the more advanced version? Yeah, so I would say, obviously, I'm an attorney. So I'm a little biased here of the because I see all the aftermath of what happens when people do it themselves, right? So I would say if you're the type of person who values professional advice, whether it's when you bought your home, you worked with a realtor because you wanted that support, you wanted to save the time and money. If when you started your business, you worked with coaches, if for your financial journey, you're working with Tory in the community, if you're someone that values the advice

to save money, save time, understand how it all works, you are going to get more ROI working with an estate planning attorney that's licensed and recommended in your state. And go on Google, look at reviews, chat with your network, get a good recommendation for someone. And I can give some more tips about what you should be asking specifically with regard to attorneys. That would be great. Yeah. But I would say, you know, the danger of doing it yourself online is kind of like diagnosing yourself medically

online. You're not paying for the advice, you're not paying for the documents and people tend to make a lot of mistakes. It's all of your assets, your real estate, your business, everything you own and you're going to go spend like a hundred dollars to protect it all. I will say as an attorney, we make more money if you do it yourself online because in probate, if it all fails and it goes through probate, we make more money. So I would say like for the people who are like suspicious, well, she's an attorney. She's telling you to work with an attorney. I actually, you know, we make more money because when plans fail down the road, we go through probate, we make more money. So it's me coming

from this place of my own family went through horrible probate. I don't wanna see people go through that process, spend the money, get a plan in place that's really gonna give you that value. You're not gonna get the same value from doing it yourself online. That being said, I know there's some people

who will never work with an attorney and will do it yourself. And so I would say if you're gonna do it yourself online, that step that we just talked about, getting everything organized and communicating is kind of where a lot of people make mistakes and the down the road tend to be worse. Look for software that has options for your specific state. And I would say if you're going to go the trust route, don't do it online because there's so many nuances of putting things on the trust that the online shops just can't provide. If you're going to go the trust route, don't do it online because there's so many nuances of putting things on the trust that the online shops just can't provide.

If you're going to do a well online, you're going to keep it simple, you know it's going to go through probate. You know, just find a resource that you feel comfortable with that's tailored to your state. As far as working with attorneys, things that you can ask for, I went through kind of the basics. Someone

that's licensed in your state, get a referral, someone that has good reviews. We do everything at our firm flat fee, agree to it in advance so there's no surprises. There are a lot of firms moving to that. So I would say understand up front how they're going to charge you. If they're going to charge you hourly every time you have a question or nickel and dime you on getting things notarized, you just want that transparencyarized. You just want that transparency up front. So we do it flat fee, agree to an advance. There's no surprises so that people can call us when they're at the bank and they need support and they're not scared of getting a $4.50 an hour charge. We also have ways to keep plans up to date. So I would say,

work with a firm that has membership programs or ways for you to stay in contact, because this is not a one and done thing, you're going to need support ongoing. And look for a firm that takes that educational approach and is going to take the time to explain things to you so that you can maintain it and understand it. So it's okay to use something online if you have a basic, because to your point, I just know that there's some people who are just like, no, attorneys are too expensive. I'm not going to do it. But we would rather have them have something than nothing. Is that accurate? Yeah, I would say, I don't want people to have the false sense of security. So yeah, yeah, good point. You know, there was a woman in Texas that I always give the example who went and did a will online. She owned a piece

of real estate and she owned a retirement account. And she had two kids, they were worth about the same. So she said, okay, I'm going to give my daughter my retirement account and my son my real estate. She put it on her online will, simple, I have two assets, easy, done. She passes away many years later, as you might expect, Tori, she used that money in the retirement account. So when she passed away, her son inherited this piece of real estate that was extremely valuable. And her daughter received something

that was worth really not a lot. So the daughter went to her brother and said, hey, I don't think this is what mom wanted. And it's like, the brother was like, well, that's what she put in the will. So they went into litigation. It was a big battle. You know, the court ended up sorting out. But that's the thing is people don't realize even in simple cases, how an online form isn't going to explain those nuances to you and how it all works. What happens with digital assets?

Yeah, so digital assets are kind of the new frontier in the state planning world. And I don't feel like the law has completely caught up with it. I would say you can have your plan set up so that you have a digital executor. So you can name someone to take care of your digital assets. Technology has come out with a lot of different social media sites. So Facebook, you can put a legacy contact. iPhones, you can put a legacy contact. I would encourage you to do that.

I am a big fan of password aggregators like OnePass and some of the other ones. Use the one that you like, but those are a really great way. You can also use a legacy contact. Then sometimes people just do the good old-fashioned password books and let their loved ones know. But you do want to plan for your digital component, especially for photos,

especially for your iPhone login. Those things I think tend to become messy after the fact and create a lot of burning down the road. As we're wrapping up, what is one thing that you want somebody to take away with? And what is like one, obviously, you know, I think it's going to be get an estate plan. But like, what is one thing that somebody can do right now to just have more of their estate in order? Yeah, I would say just one takeaway, one thing you could do now is grab that file folder and put the first page of everything you own in it. So a copy of

your business entities, a copy of your retirement account statements, your bank account statements, your life insurance, get that all organized in a folder and tell people where that is. And that's such a great step, if something were to happen, that they're not trying to find it, that things aren't lost. And that's your first step when you need to do a plan,

whether you're gonna do it yourself online, whether you're gonna hire an attorney, they're gonna ask you to collect all of that. So you now have everything organized in one place. And the other benefit of having everything financially organized is when you work with people like Tori and her programs, you need that financial organization so that you can grow your wealth, right? You need to be revisiting that. So get it all organized in one place. And that's the first step and so important. Thank you so much for all this information. I have a large to-do list now that I might be reaching out

to you about. Let us know where people can find more about your work and where they can potentially work with you. Yeah, so we are on Instagram, LawmotherCO, on Facebook, Lawmother, TikTok, Lawmother. And you can download a free copy of my book, Legally Ever After. We give it out digitally for free.

When you follow us, all the details are there. Amazing. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you, Tori. Thank you so much to Pamela for joining us. You can get her bestselling book, Legally Ever After, for free on her website, lawmotherco.com. You can also follow her on Instagram at lawmotherco. Thank you so much for being here as always. Please leave us a review if you like the show. It's really, really helpful for us. We've received a lot of negative reviews recently saying that the show is too political and

I call bullshit on that. So it really does help our ratings and it hurts our ratings for the negative reviews and helps our ratings for the good ones. So please leave us a five star rating if you enjoy the show and if you've gotten any value from it. And we also appreciate you sharing the show with other people in your life. So thanks. Go vote, vote.org. We'll talk to you later. Bye. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a her first 100k podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields and Tamesha Grant,

research by Sarah Shortino, audio and video engineering by Alyssa Medcalf, marketing and operations by Karina Patel and Amanda LeFeu. Special thanks to our team at Her First 100K. Kaylyn Sprinkle, Masha Bakhmakeva, Taylor Chil, Sasha Bonhart, Ray Wong, Elizabeth McCumber, Claire Karonen, Darrell Ann Ingman, and Megan Walker.

Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com.

If you're confused about your personal finances and you're wondering where to start, go to herfirsthundredk.com slash quiz for a free personalized money plan. When I say the words online business, what do you think of? Maybe it's working when you want, where you want. Maybe it's being your own boss or controlling your income or turning your passion into your profession. One of the things I think of when I hear online business is my friend Amy Porterfield and her incredible podcast that I listen to all the time called Online Marketing Made Easy. For 15 years, Amy has taught dreamers, entrepreneurs, and online business owners how to start and scale an online business by authentically sharing what

she's done in each stage of her $100 million business. She has a New York Times bestselling book about how to leave your 9 to 5 job, about how to start an online business from scratch. And so many of these episodes, I not only listen to, but send to other friends who are business owners or want to be business owners. Twice a week, Amy's going to grace your headphones with actionable inspirational episodes to help you get started, earn more and serve more with an online business, even if you're starting from nothing. Nothing is off limits in these conversations. We're talking about simple strategies to grow an audience, to create a scalable digital course offer that allows you to serve and earn way more than you ever did one-on-one, to finding courage to show up online, to navigating self-doubt,

to wowing students inside all of your programs. So if you love the sound of being your own boss and if entrepreneurship has ever been a curiosity for you, if you want to serve generously from an online business and control your income, go subscribe to Online Marketing Made Easy right now wherever you're listening. You can also check out my episode on Amy's podcast wherever you're listening right now.