Financial Feminist - 36. Job Hopping to Increase Your Income with Cinneah El-Amin

Episode Date: August 16, 2022

Long gone are the days of 40-year careers climbing the latter at a single company, and in are the days of job hopping as a means to help grow your income and your skillset. With the conflict of advice from all sides on how to move from one company or even career to another, we brought in the 9 to 5 hottie herself, Cinneah El-Amin. As the creator behind Flynanced, Cinneah helps corporate “9 to 5 Hotties” find success by advocating for their worth, taking full advantage of perks like PTO, and learning how to live a more aligned life even while working in corporate. This episode dives into how Cinneah job hopped to double her income, how she feels no guilt for taking her well-deserved PTO, and so much more. We’re also introducing Cinneah as one of our new HFK contributors! Get resources mentioned in the show, learn more about our guests, and read episode transcripts: https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/increase-income-with-job-hopping Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, financial feminists. Today is a very special day. Not only is this episode so value packed and fun, I was telling my producer, Kristen, that I think there was a gas leak in the studio this day. It was very hot. We were both like very sweaty in the studio. We had a great time in New York. But we also get to introduce you to our newest HFK creator. A common misconception about Her First 100K is that it's all about and solely run by me. And yes, I did start Her First 100K. I'm the founder and CEO. But Her First 100K is not me. I am not Her First 100K. HFK is not my identity. It is a company run by me. And it was my journey to saving 100K at 25 that launched us.

But HFK is a team now of 13 people and growing with a mission to bring financial education to everyone. So we think it's important to share voices from all backgrounds and in all phases of life and to not just hear from me all the time. So earlier this year, we introduced you to Mallory Rowan, our Canadian finance creator. And if you are Canadian or interested in real estate or anything like that, we both have previous episodes with her as well as future episodes, and we feature her on our Instagram and TikTok. And now we're introducing you to Sunia El-Amin, who has built her business, Flynanced, around being and supporting nine to five hotties looking to increase their wealth and build

a life they love. So in today's conversation, we talk about her journey working in the tech world and how she's expertly navigated corporate life to make it work for her instead of the other way around. We get into how to take advantage of paid time off policies without guilt, how to navigate your salary negotiation, the art of shamelessly job hopping to increase your income, and so much more. This is one of the most valuable episodes we have ever done, y'all, and especially valuable around navigating any type of corporate situation, any type of career. And if a nine-to-five is not your thing, if you are an entrepreneur, there is still so much to learn from this episode around

advocating for what you're worth, around establishing your boundaries around work. It's such a valuable conversation. This episode is a great intro into who Sunia is, a little on her background and expertise, and a little taste of the value that she'll continue to bring to our community. You're going to absolutely love her. Let's get into it. hi hello i'm so excited you're here okay talk to me about mexico You were living in Mexico for how long? I was in Mexico for three amazing months. That's what I thought. Where I was pretty much just like, fuck this. Living in quarantine, New York City, if people can remember the wild, wild west of 2020 and early 2021, it was rough. I don't want to forget, but yes. It was rough. It was really rough. You live alone? I was not living alone at the time. Okay.

So I think that even compounded my anxiety that I was just like feeling just those four walls of my bedroom that's literally, I mean, a third the size of this space that we're sitting in right now. Just the walls were caving in on me. Like it was my creative studio. It was my home office. It was my living room, dining room, everything. Yeah, too much.

Your gym. Yeah. Girl. Yeah. Your gym. Yeah. Girl. So yeah, going to Tulum was an experience that I honestly thought I would not have been able to do until I was further along in my career. Like I think I had all of these ideas like, girl, no, you need to wait until you're a director. You need to wait to have X number of years of experience to be able to tough it out for a while to earn it. Yeah. And, like, all that was bullshit. Like, it was all bullshit. And I'm so glad that I went because it's so funny now looking at all these companies talking about work from anywhere weeks and all of this, right?

That I'm so glad I didn't allow the naysayers to kind of keep me from taking that leap because I'm so glad that I did. Like, there were no implications to me literally working from another country. I got my work done. It was great. It was, it was transformative for sure. It was, it had to have been cheaper than New York. Oh, absolutely. I mean, it was the first time I think since making the kind of money that I make now that I've been, that I was able to comfortably save more than half of my salary. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. We know the market that we were in in 2021.

So that was also, I mean, like my 401k went up like $40,000 in a single year from me maxing it out, getting all these gains from, you know, the waves that we were riding. It was incredible. If you're maxing it out, it's going up 40k. Max is 1920k. Yep. So I pretty much like was doubling my money. Yep, you're seeing double. Easy.

Yeah, I was doubling my money. And doing it with ease, you know? I think that there's still this idea that, oh, if you are, you know, pursuing fire, you've got to be heavy on the frugal life. But being in Tulum kind of showed me. You got to scrimp on rice and beans. Yeah. No, like I was still enjoying Tulum. I was in a two-bedroom, two-bath apartment.

I pretty much elevated my lifestyle at the same or lower cost than what I was paying in New York. Was that painful coming back to New York then? It wasn't painful in that I think there was still a part of me that wanted this kind of like independence in New York City that I'd never felt before because I couldn't afford it. Right? Like I'd never lived by myself. Even before it right like I'd never lived by myself even before Tulum I'd never lived by myself I feel like New York's only fun if you have some money like oh that's a whole thing girl like New York's only only can get really fun when you're you have some sort of discretionary ability to yeah no absolutely and I feel like now that I'm kind of in more my rich bitch era

um you know I feel like I'm actually enjoying New York City to your point right the fruits of your labor yeah yeah and I think having that that independence that I think I I always wanted right like when I was hustling hard early in my career and lived with two roommates and I was just like living in this box literally shafted I mean I lived in an apartment I was shafted for three and a half years and like saw the sunlight for like a good hour every day. Oh, no. I think that just kind of wanting to change that and see myself just in a new space.

I had to come back. Also, you know, summertime in New York City is undefeated. Yeah, I'm leaving right before, right before it gets hot. We had our hot weekend this weekend and I was out. Because I'm from the Pacific Northwest. I can't do it. If it's over 75, 78. 78 is like perfect. Anything hotter than that, I'm out.

I can't do it. Girl, well, at least you had a taste of it. Oh, I did have a taste of it. The city was up. I was sticky. I was schvitzing for like 48 hours straight. Weren't we all? Oh, my God.

No. And that lovely like subway air that's, Satan's ass, you know? That's just, mm, nice and spicy down there. No, Mexico, I, what I loved about it, and you've come, you were gracious enough to be interviewed for my book as well, and we'll get into it, but I think one of the coolest things about that specific example is it's, like, again, money gives you options, right? It's like, cool, I have a little bit of money. I'm going to go do this thing that plenty of people, specifically women, will never get to do. Like, let me live in a tropical, beautiful place and do something that unfortunately society is deemed, quote unquote, selfish.

And yeah, selfish in the best possible way. Absolutely. Why shouldn't we want that? Why shouldn't we be able to have that? Absolutely. Yeah, and I think for me it was also just, I think, challenging these ideas that even as a young woman, I could create the life that I wanted right now.

I don't have to wait until I'm a multimillionaire. I don't need to wait until I'm retired. I don't need to wait until any of these qualifiers. Till I get a man, till I progress in my career. Yeah. So yeah, to your point of like director. It was a hot girl summer for real. A hot girl single summer. Okay. So I think that was the biggest thing for me. I think that it just, it really, I think reminded me of my power. And to be able to do that, to be able to live abroad solo as a young black woman, I think is also, you know, I think there's still a lot of fear mongering that happens when you start to talk about being a young solo woman traveling. Right. But I think I also had

to model for other people in my family, in my community that it's okay. You know, it's possible. It's safe. And showing other women that if you have that voice inside you that's calling for that, to follow that. Because you just never know the people you'll meet, the experiences you'll have, the breakthroughs you'll have. And I think all of that is priceless. I fled to Hawaii for a month when I was really not doing well and, like like hardly told anybody

and did it completely on my own and probably if not the best month one of the best months of my life and they had the ability I just felt so I hate the word empowered but like that's how I like that's the best way to describe it but it was just like I got here on my own dime I'm I'm running my business out of a airbnb in hawaii where i watch the sunset every night like oh i'm driving my mustang convertible i've rented to the grocery store i buy groceries with my own money and i know what to cook and so i'm gonna buy like it was just great literally yeah literally yeah like if that doesn't build your confidence like i don't know what the fuck will. Okay. Mm. Mm.

That one makes me so happy. Okay. So we posted a tweet of yours and it really, it resonated with our audience beautifully. Quote, unlimited PTO is not a scam. The only scam is being a grown ass adult asking for permission to take time off at work. Talk to me about that. I'm so sassy on Twitter. You are.

I'm here for it. You know, Twitter's just where I talk about Timothee Chalamet. That's all I do on Twitter. Twitter's like my one social media account that I still have full access to. Like the rest of my team is in there. And they pull the reins back?

Like no. Literally. I had to go get a personal Instagram account because my team's like, you can't. You got to chill out a little bit. And I'm like, okay, fine. I'll just make my own. Like, you can't post shirtless pictures of Timothee Chalamet. What a week, Tor.

What a week. I love that. Okay, talk to me about that tweet. Yeah, so, you know, I think taking a step back, I am someone who fell into a well-paid career and didn't really know what the hell I was doing when I started working, right? Like, I woke up one day and I was a product manager

and then the world started evolving around this idea that, oh, product managers are highly strategic and they should be highly paid. And I think with that, right, we talk a lot about total compensation. We talk a lot about getting to the bag, right? But I feel like there's also a big conversation that's happening on social media around specifically just the benefit of unlimited PTO. with this idea that there are those among us that work traditional nine-to-five jobs that do have a level of freedom as it regards to when they take time off and being paid, right? So I think that that tweet was really a response to really just a lot of comments that I've gotten

on my own content that I've seen, you know, circulate in other, you know, forms of social media. I've seen it too. And I will say, I think some companies, they use the unlimited PTO in a way to never encourage time off. Absolutely. But just like anything, like there are some things that are used as tools. There's some things that are abused, right? And I've worked at companies that have unlimited PTO. And as long as you're not absolutely ridiculous about it, they kind of mean it. There's other companies who are like unlimited PTO is our excuse to not give us a very specific PTO policy. So no one ever takes PTO.

As I have learned more about what is out there for 9 to 5 hotties, I definitely think that the companies that do it best when it comes to unlimited PTO are really the ones that are giving guidelines and really encouraging employees to take time off. Whether that is all employees must take four weeks throughout the year or whatever those guidelines look like. I think, yeah, just having unlimited PTO and kind of leaving it up to one's own manager to decide, oh, yeah, this is the right level, the right threshold. Yeah, I think it's difficult. And I think often puts the employee in an uncomfortable situation where we have to kind of decide, is this too much? Is this not enough? What's reasonable? Well, and I've worked at companies who give PTO, but then are actively you're actively shamed if you use it. You know, so you have those companies out there that are, you know, you're supposed to give PTO, but then are actively, you're actively shamed if you use it, you know? So you have those companies out there that are, you know, you're supposed to give PTO in theory, right? But then it is a badge of honor if you don't take it, which is just gross. It is gross. It is gross. So if you don't work in tech, can you describe to me kind of your career trajectory of how you

landed in this and what a project manager do? Project or product? Product. Okay. Yes. Product. Yes. Explain it for us. Yeah.

So my career, I've extensively worked in finance, financial services, fintech. Yeah. Fintech now. But, you know, when I graduated from college, I went to Barnard. I did a one-year master's at Wake Forest. After that, I still didn't know what the fuck I wanted to do. You know? Here I was with someone that was, I always did well in school, but never really had someone kind of tap me on the shoulder and say,

you know, you'd be great for this obscure career path over here called product management. That never really happened. I don't know if that happens with anybody. Well, there's very little. I've met some people. I'm sure. Let me guess. If you're going to doctor school, you will be a doctor, right?

Doctor. Doctor school. Yes. That's what they call it in the biz right if you're going you know if you're going to law school you're going to be a lawyer I think there are especially like liberal arts right it's like how am I turning this major into a career and that's what I was there's very little liberal arts that's me that's my picture right there under the definition of liberal arts. I literally majored in Africana studies. But right. That's like there's I think that that's one place. I mean, there's many, but that's one place where college kind of fails to, you know, they talk about the real world all the time in college. And it's like, yeah, but how are you actually assisting me with figuring out what this English degree is going to mean. Not very well. Right, right, right. Not very well. And I knew immediately when I was a senior in college that I was not pursuing the academic route.

I was not about to get a PhD. I was not. Right, you were going to teach. I wasn't going to teach. Right. I saw myself working in corporate. And it's so funny looking back. When I was a senior in college, I was really drawn to, like, this idea of, like, rotational programs.

Like, oh, if I can learn about a bunch of different things. Yeah. Like, that was really drawn to like this idea of like rotational programs, like, oh, if I can learn about a bunch of different things, like that sounds really cool. Looking back, that actually would have made me a great candidate to be even a product manager intern back then. Right. Because I think the key to being a great product manager is having that ability to influence your stakeholders across your business so that your product can be the best that it can be for your customers. Like that is essentially what a product manager does. So in my role today, I get to work with all different types of people across my company without having to call myself just one thing, right? I'm not just a marketer. I'm not just

a salesperson. I'm not just an engineer. I'm a product manager who gets to influence all of these different people, sit in on these conversations and be able to guide a process so that whatever my product is, whether it's a physical product, a tangible product, a software, it can be the best version of itself for my end users and my customers. And I really fell into that. So you're going like, ooh, I think that this could be better in this way. Absolutely. Like, this landing page for this thing could be tweaked in this way. Or like, I don't know, this UX UI design of this app is not working in this way. Okay, got it. Yep, that's a great, those are great examples.

Or like, talking to someone in legal and saying, hey, we really need this thing approved for these reasons, right? If we're able to describe something using this kind of language, customers, it'll resonate with them, you know, more strongly. Or, you know, on the engineering side, being able to say, hey, I really need this feature done by this sprint so that our product can go live when it's intended because we have a contractual obligation, right? All of those are examples of, of like things that product managers do. But absolutely, I think putting yourselves in the shoe of like, who is that person that has that bird's eye view of everything going on with this thing, right? This is your baby, right?

Like as a product manager, it's your baby. You are responsible for the highs, the lows, the ebbs and the flows, right? And to be able to articulate that, that urgency to the other stakeholders. You're kind of a professional just like poker of just like, hi, I need this thing. Can you get me this thing, please? Yeah.

And I don't want to paint it like it's all butterflies and roses all the time. No, and of course that was a dramatic oversimplification. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, I get this question all the time because there are a lot of nine to five hotties who follow me on Instagram and are just like, oh, my God, never heard about product manager. Never heard about product management. We have a project manager at HFK, but we do not have a product manager. What is the difference?

Yeah, so I think the big difference is a project manager is really focused on the delivery of individual projects, right? So it could be a one-off. You could be supporting a large organization, but it's not as strategic. It's not so much in the day-to-day operations of how this individual product is going to live, exist, thrive, right? So it's almost like the project manager is the product's already done and you're trying to figure out either like how to get it out or how to market it? Yeah. Okay. Those could be examples. I mean, a project manager could support a product manager on specific features or smaller tasks or projects that really make up the overall execution. Whereas a product manager is really that person that's like, come hell or high water, I'm riding

by this product, right? Even if it's like, yeah, we're in a launch and things are going well. If we're in a low point and we have to figure out, right, how do we have that competitive edge? How do we turn this product around? That's really a product manager. It is more strategic. It's really thinking about the product life cycle. So from this is just an idea all the way to, hey, this product is done. It did what it needed to do. Let's sunset it, right? And replace it with something else. That person's thinking about value overall in terms of how do we bring value to the business through these products. So I would say that's the big difference. And I think you sometimes see that product managers, I think the bag is heavier on the product side

because it is seen as more strategic. And at the end of the day, product managers are driving that top line revenue for companies, right? Like what is a company if not its products and software, right? So those people that are making those decisions are definitely going to be high earners because it's up to them to kind of make those strategic bets for the company. Totally. What advice do you have for folks who are majoring in something in college and trying to figure out, okay, how is this applicable to the real world? What am I going to do? Especially, I would like to make some money. I would like to get into tech, but I don't have a software engineering background. What does that look

like for folks? Yeah, I think there are a couple of things. I think one, not being afraid to be a hustler, right? I think I was always a hustler through college. I hustled my way into internships where it was just like, I don't know how I'm a media corporate, you know, communications intern at like Viacom with an Africana studies degree, but I hustled my way in the door, right? Can we define hustle? Because I feel like the word hustle is loaded now. Ooh, okay. That's a good point. So when I say hustle, I mean taking a no-nonsense approach to getting towards your bag, right? Whether that looks like going to networking events. I think especially if you're in college, the employers are coming to you, right? Are you going to the job fairs?

Are you putting yourself in a position to win? Are you doing informational interviews? Are you doing those informational interviews, right? Are you networking? Are you using LinkedIn, which, oh, my God, I was in college when LinkedIn launched, right? Yep, me too. No one knew what the hell it was. Oh, it was my favorite thing.

It was my favorite thing too. I would slide into people's DMs and be like, hello. Literally. Use the words I am a student while you still can. Like, hi, I'm a student. I would love 15 minutes of your time.

That is some free smoke right there and I hope everyone caught that. If you are a student, absolutely you should be leveraging that status to talk to as many professionals in the jobs that you want right now. Because who's going to say no? Like, I would love to give 15 minutes. Very few people did. Right, very few people did. leveraging that status to talk to as many professionals in the jobs that you want right

now. Because who's going to say no? Like, I would love to give 15 minutes. Very few people did. Right. Very few people did. I was shocked at how generous people were with their time. I was still shocked.

Like, 21-year-old me had nothing to offer and, like, resume. But, like, I was like, hello, I'm a student. I would really love 15 minutes of your time. Some people would stay on the phone with me for an hour. And granted, I was always respectful and asked them, like, do you have more time? But, like, crazy how generous people were. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think when it comes to hustle, I think it also is about getting creative with the opportunities that are out there. Right. When I was in college, product management was not this huge ethos

that it has today. Right. So it wasn't as well defined. It was not. Right. So I think if you are a college student or recent grad right now, look think it's well defined. It was not right. So I think if you are a college student or recent grad right now, look at associate product management programs. I literally created a reel on this a couple of days ago. Every big tech company is creating pipelines to bring in early talent into their companies through these associate programs, these rotational programs. And you don't always have to be a recent grad to qualify. Sometimes they're just looking for people with non-traditional backgrounds, like someone who went to a liberal arts, you know, program and wants to pivot into tech. So I think when it comes to hustle, I think it's about putting yourself out there, not being afraid to raise your hand for those opportunities,

make those connections, follow up with people. I think that is such an important, such an important overlook skill of just not only making those initial connections, follow up with people. I think that is such an important, such an important overlook skill of just not only making those initial connections, but then not being afraid to say in a couple months, hey, I know we talked for 15 minutes way back when. Here's how it's going. Staying on people's radars and getting creative with the opportunities that are out here. Because I think if you're tapped into people like me, people like the 9th semester, there's so many women who are online talking about these opportunities

that exist. Tap into those opportunities and put yourself out there. Yeah, my mom always says the squeaky wheel gets the grease and I'm the squeakiest goddamn wheel you'll ever meet. Oh, just like...

I'm the squeakiest goddamn wheel you'll ever meet. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. It's like, I'm just going to be here and I'm just going to be like, hello, hello, hello. And then I'll get the grease because i'm squeaking really really yeah it's one of those i don't know maybe ben franklin or some shit set up but you know ben franklin had

all of those like random i can't think of any of the other ones i doubt he said it but yeah it was what she always told me and i've always been polite about it but yeah i am like sliding into people's dms and i will i will every couple of days. And honestly, I think that energy is going to carry you really far when it comes to even some of the jobs that we've talked about already. If you think you can be a good product manager, you're afraid to follow up with people because, hey, you said you would get that thing to me. Right, right, right. Hey, now I'm back in your email. You're the professional squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Literally. Yeah. Hey, now I'm on your'm on your calendar right hey you can't get away from

me right right so that's literally what your job is totally okay speaking of hustle our society glorifies work capitalism glorifies work how do you balance wanting to travel and take breaks and rest from your job versus advocating for or advancing your career at the same time. This is a really hard question. Solve capitalism for me right now. That's basically what I'm asking, I guess. Girl, I wish I could. Me too.

I'm not much of a Marxist. You know, I would say for me that's honestly been an area that I continue to struggle through and work through. I'm someone that tends to overwork to kind of, you know. Sounds familiar. You know, cope with life. Life is hard. And I like to throw myself into work. Sounds familiar.

To, you know, cope with those things. So, you know, I think for me, finding that balance requires a couple things. finding that balance requires a couple things. I think one, really being intentional with your leaders about what it is that you want and what are those things that they feel like they need to see from you so that those things align, right? So I think coming into, for example, I just started a new job a couple months ago.

One of the things that I was very adamant about was I need a 30, 60, 90 plan, right? Like let's create one together. If you have some ideas of things that you feel like I should. And it was great because then I feel like I made my manager brain dump all of the people that she thought I should talk to. Right. All of the things that she felt like are important. You're asking her what does success look like? Give me the plan for it and then I will go follow the plan.

Period, okay? Why should I reinvent the wheel when I've clearly been hired to do a certain job? Or try to read your mind about what you want. Exactly. So I think that's a great example. For any 9 to 5 hottie who's pivoting into a new job, have that on paper, right? Have that in an email, in a presentation, whatever it looks like. But have that plan documented so that when you then hit those markers, you can say, well, I've done all

of this and this is what success was defined as. And I'm succeeding. I've now far exceeded that, right? I'm owning these processes. I'm doing these things. These people are the ones who are giving me compliments on my work. Now what? Right? So I think continuing to have those conversations. And I think even, you know, as I think about my career over the last five years, I've used those moments, whether it's like mid-year checkpoints, end-of-year checkpoints to say, here are all the things that I've done that I feel like have added value to the business, helped us make money. I would like some more money, please.

I would like more money, right? Or I want to be promoted. What does that look like? And then I think really listening to my intuition when I just kind of feels like if I am checking all these boxes, I'm exceeding in so many ways. You have nothing to say about my performance. And now it's, oh, just wait your turn for promotion. That's when I'm out. I'm out. I'm out the door. We have so many questions about job hopping. But yes.

Yes. So, but I think balancing that with travel is like, okay, when I have clear direction on what success looks like, I think then I'm able to say, okay, well, if there's downtime throughout the year, I can take this trip, right? Like I can take this time off. I'm also, you know, grateful to work for companies

that encourage employees to take sabbatical trip, right? Like, I can take this time off. I'm also, you know, grateful to work for companies that encourage employees to take sabbaticals, right? So I think this, like, work-life balance looks a little bit different at my current company than it's ever looked before. You know, I think for me it's honestly still a work in progress. But I think on the work side, it's having that clear communication. And then on my side, I mean mean they probably should have never given me unlimited pto because I'm gonna take it I'm gonna take it yeah um there's no reason they shouldn't give it to you right so it's unlimited make it unlimited it's I need to ask because of me great put an asterisk on it because of me they just might yeah yeah i think it's also there's this interesting

conversation that's happening right now that i'm really glad is happening it's like do you not only we hope you like your job right and that's like i have a whole chapter in my book about earning right and it's not like hustle porn it's not like burn yourself out It's just like let me try to help you find a job that you can at least tolerate that pays you fairly. Right. So it's like let's not only hope to find a job that we like or can at least tolerate. But if you don't want to advance your career, there's no pressure to do so. Right. It's like do what you got to do in order to keep your boss off your back, right?

To do your job well. But if this is not something that you want to progress in, this is not a company you care about. And you care about either resting, yay, great, and or building something on your own. Like I always say phone it in. But like phone it in sounds like you're really giving minimal effort. But like do what you need to do to not ruffle any feathers. Wow. And then don't fuck with it.

Period. I'm so glad that you said that because now I'm, now I'm also understanding the question a little bit better. And I think, you know, I've known for a while that I was, I never aspired to be in a C-suite position. Yeah, and I'm kind of leading you on with that answer because I know a bit about you and about what you want.

But it's also, I think, no, I think it's just, I think there's this expectation, especially as women, it's like, you know, okay, go in, give 120% constantly, stay late, be the one who always volunteers because, like, the goal is just to continue being career woman and it's like if you don't want to be career woman at least not at this job or not it doesn't matter at all like you don't have to do that. It's making me also think about if you are that person who's always been that high performer at work people will put those titles on to you and say yeah oh my god I can see you being like a VP one day. And it's just like, girl, I don't give a fuck about this job. Right. Well, and defining what you actually want versus what do people expect you to want.

Defining what you actually want is so important. Yeah. And I think I'm really grateful to have, I think, learned about financial freedom early in my career. That kind of gave me like a blueprint to say, wait, I don't have to wait. I don't I don't have to do this. Like I don't I don't have to do this. And and I think I've like just kind of found my own spice about how I do it, how I go about that. But I think absolutely like we don't we don't have to live through these antiquated ideas of what it means to be a career minded women like or in a take breaks

rest yep have kids do whatever you want whatever makes you feel happiest i think for me it's not necessarily it's not climbing the corporate ladder for sure yep okay job hopping my favorite fucking thing let's talk about hey okay so for many many years job hopping was considered a negative thing right back in the days of like my dad's generation probably our dad's generation right sure yeah but like the back when you would like stay at one company for oh yeah 10 15 20 years yeah my uncle is still at the same company that he was hired on when he graduated college. He's in his 60s. He's still at the same company. I would argue that pretty much unheard of among millennials, Gen Z, but there's still this sort of like lasting reputation that

job hopping has that it is bad. Yeah. Please debunk that for us. Where do I start? You know, I think that there is this let's first start with like why I think that there is still this reputation. Yeah, let's go there. I think that there's still this idea that if you are job hopping, you are not really developing enough skills to warrant getting paid more somewhere else. Or that you're uncommitted. Oof. Right. Or lazy, which it's none of those things. Right. I feel like every time and I've now worked for three different companies in less than five years as a young black woman. So yeah, I mean,

I would, I would think that the, I would think the stakes would be against me on that, on that tip. Right. Um, why I think I've been able to overcome that in my own journey is that one, I know how to tell my fucking story,

right? Like, and I own it. And I own it. I know how to tell my fucking story and I own it. So can I do a hypothetical it again. I know how to tell my fucking story, and I own it. So, can I do a hypothetical interview with you right now? I'm going to put you on the spot.

Okay, because I want people to see, because I say, I literally, you and I are on the same wavelength. We are. I tell that to people all the time. I'm like, how you present yourself in the interview

is not just like, showing up in like a well-dressed whatever. It's like, literally, how are you cultivating the story that you're trying to tell in order for them to take action? Exactly. Okay. So tell me about yourself. Yeah. So hi, I'm Sunia El-Amin. I currently work as a product manager in FinTech and I've spent the last five years working across the value chain and financial services on the issuer side, for merchants,

on the network side. And together together that's really giving me a well rounded view girl I got the interview voice on right now yes you do you code switch so fast okay it was like superman becoming clark kent again like okay but okay but you know that I like apply for like 100 jobs last year so I did did this a lot. But yeah, that's like essentially it, right? It's like. Can you, one more. Why are you choosing to leave this current role and what are you looking for in your next? I'm really glad that you asked this question.

Sorry, I'm so excited. I would say that actually I'm really just curious about this opportunity. I was actually approached by a recruiter on LinkedIn who thought I would be a great fit for this open role. a recruiter on LinkedIn who thought I would be a great fit for this open role. So I'm really excited to learn more about the opportunity here and the value that I can bring as a seasoned product manager to this role. So I'm actually using this opportunity to learn more about you and your team. So, and then I would ask them a question back because no, I'm not about to talk the whole interview. You about to talk and I'm about to listen. And then I'm about to, yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, that was perfect. Thank you.

No, okay. So what she did, right? Like, it was beautiful. Like, very much cultivated. Like, the tell me about yourself question, it's like, what do you want? My sexual history? My medical history? Like, what do you want?

Right? You were very, like, it's obviously career. This is what I've done before. This is my experience. This is what I'm looking for now. Okay, why are you switching? I'm curious. And I want to bring value to your organization, right. As a seasoned, as an experienced person, right. You are not saying like, Oh, like I, I'm really excited about this job because like either I need a job or like,

like I don't have any other opportunities. Right. You are in complete position of power. Sorry. That was a fun digression. It was beautiful. Cause I think a lot of people, like I say that to people all the time of like cultivate your story and they're like, okay, what does that actually look like? So thank you for. Yeah. And I think that it works even if you are trying to pivot into an industry you've never worked in. Right. That's why we have a whole, we'll link it in the show notes. We have a whole workshop of how to land a job when you don't meet the requirements. I love that. And it's like you take, and I talk about my friend Haley, who was not a recruiter. She worked at PF Chang's. She was like the maitre d' at P.F. Chang's and she wanted to become a recruiter.

And it was like pretty much every skill is teachable. Character is not right. So she was like, OK, you know, a recruiter needed to be able to manage their time. Well, cool. I managed my time at P.F. Chang's. You need to be able to like, you know, juggle multiple, multiple balls. And she's like, I, you know, I managed an entire restaurant basically. Like she was able to bridge those skills into the role that she actually wanted. Absolutely. Okay. Job hopping. Sorry. Okay. Why, why do we feel like, okay, people think it's lazy. People think it's, you don't have enough experience at that previous role to be able to garner more money hypothetically. Anything else? I think that hits the nail on the head.

I think for me, job hopping, you know, I think it's become this buzzword. Like, yeah, and I play into that in my content. I'm not going to lie to y'all. But let's be honest. I've had to job hop out of necessity. I've been pushed out of jobs. I've been told I would have to wait for promotions. I've been told to put my own financial needs and the holistic vision

that I had for my life and myself on hold because they didn't see a reason to accelerate my promotion or my higher earning, right? Like I haven't job hopped because it's like a fun thing to do. It's extremely hard to put yourself in a position to upskill and move to a totally different new organization where you're learning new skills, people and things. But I've had to do it out of necessity. But the fact you said out of necessity and then you listed they're not fast tracking me, they're not interested in promoting me. Unfortunately, I think there's probably a ton of people listening who have gone, well, that's been me, but that's been me for two years. And I felt like I had to be patient.

Fuck that. Yes. Yeah. We can curse on this show. Well, we've already been cursing. Yeah. Fuck that. You know, I think about I think about the example of my own life right at the beginning of 2020. I told myself I want to be debt free. Well, I can't be debt free on this current salary. So you need to make more money, sis. Oh, and back then there was no finance to be like, yeah, you got all these followers. You can, girl, no, it was just me and my one paycheck. Right. So out of necessity, it was, I need to bring more money into my, my financial picture. Right. And how am I going to do that? I should just go to a competitor company and I just kind of put it out there and start networking and was able. You have more power coming into a new job than you ever do your current role. Period. And I can't say, what's the grass greener on the other side? You got the money and you got out. I got the money, I got out and I think it then put me in a position to be where I'm at now making multiple six figures. And if I hadn't

have had that step to get there in 18 months, right, that I wouldn't be here. And I also wouldn't have had those skills that I gained at that job to say, yeah, I'm not only a product manager, but I'm a technical product manager. I can work with APIs. I can work with scripts. I can build out an intent. You know, like I think that's the thing that I want to challenge when I talk about job hopping, especially for young women, for young black women. We are upskilling every time we take on new jobs. When we are learning new processes, when we're learning new software and tools, when we're learning how to work with different types of clients, those are value adds that we can then take to another company. you ads that we can then take to another company. This idea of sitting and waiting to be told we are now deserving of more money, of more promotion, of more responsibility is bullshit. And I think that is going to continue to keep us in a place where we're going to earn less, have less over

the course of our lifetimes. And I'm just not with it, especially in a, in I think a candidate's market where, in which we are now, where being that person that owns your story and can kind of connect the dots for that person on the other side on. This is how I can take exactly what I've done in these previous roles and be able to fill in all these gaps that you have in your team is going to make you a qualified and in demand candidate every time. And be interested in the job, of course, but also be in the position of power. Period. Because you are interviewing them just as much, arguably more, than they're interviewing you.

Say that. Right? Say that. Gone are the days where we're going into interviews like, oh, I hope they pick me. It would be their L if they don't pick me, right? Also that energy, too. We know, I know from my own experience and we know from data, somebody who goes in with that energy will not get hired,

right? Because they want the best person for the job. And if you go in humble, but knowing you're the best person for the job, you're probably going to get the job, right? And what did you say earlier? So many things that we need to be successful in our jobs we're gonna learn on the job so stop telling yourself oh well i don't have all of these qualifications we know from stats men will apply for jobs i don't know the percentage i think it's like 40 yeah 40 or 40 50 yeah women will not apply women identifying people will not apply unless they feel like they can hit i think think it's like 95% of the things on the job description. The vast majority of that you will learn on the job. Absolutely. Do you work

hard? Do you show up on time? Do you have the general sort of skills? Like, again, I'm not as a marketer about to go out and again, I don't know why I'm picking on lawyers, like go be a lawyer, right? But like most of those skills are teachable. Absolutely. I run through a whole, every chapter of the book is like different narratives that we're believing about money. And the earning chapter is like, you know, there's so many narratives that I think we believe of like, okay, they will see my accomplishments. So me asking for a raise, like that's ridiculous. They'll see me and they'll give me a promotion. Can we talk about why that's bullshit? True. I think there's so many ways I can take this question. You know, I think about back to a time where I worked in an organization where there were a lot of micro

aggressions that took place. So it was, you could be the most accomplished person, but there is still a status quo on who is getting fast track to promotion, who fits the mold of what success looks like, right? And if you don't look and feel that way, it doesn't really matter how accomplished you are. There's going to be a glass ceiling for you. So I would say that's a big

in that equation, especially for those of us, and I think all of us listening, have intersectional identities that don't necessarily make us these cookie cutter types of what it means to be in these corporate or not defy traditional spaces. So what does that mean for you? if you're someone that occupies these spaces where you might be on the margins right like I've my entire career worked in roles where I was one of the only black women or the only black woman for me as a white woman I've worked in roles where I was the only one right come on even worse because there was no racial diversity right and there was barely gender diversity so if you really think you're in a place where you're on the margins already, you really

think that the people in charge are going to say, yeah, this person's so accomplished, let's promote her over all of these other people. Especially when the vast majority of business owners, their one concern is revenue. So you think that they're going to be voluntarily just doling out raises? Come on. Unfortunately not. No. Come on. Unfortunately not. No, it's not a thing. Yep.

And I think one of the other narratives is adjacent to that. Like, not only will they notice me, but if I put in my time for six months, a year, two years, three years, even if they promised me promotion before and they haven't given it to me,

I just, I have to keep working to earn it. Also bullshit. Such a fallacy. If anything, I think when I have had individuals in my life that have kind of been, you know, kind of led on, kind of breadcrumbed like that, it hardly, if ever, turns into a favorable situation for them. Kind of like dating where he's like, yeah, I'll propose. And then it's like two years later and you're like, um. And why is that, right? It doesn't seem like it's going to happen. What incentive does an employer have now that you continue to give your best work over these two years?

What incentive do they have to, to your point, eat into their own profits to give you more money when you've already shown that you'll give top work for next to nothing, right? I always say that you will feel in your gut when you're at that decision point to say, do I continue to stay at this place knowing I'm being breadcrumbed? Or do I take the calculated risk to say things may not be 100% better somewhere else, but having more money, having more flexibility, having more options is always going to be a better option for me.

Well, and go see what's out there, right? We're not telling you to go quit your job and then go find something better. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. And I've never done that, to be clear. Right, it's like at least go out, even if maybe there isn't something better, well, no, no, no, no. And I've never done that, to be clear. Right. It's like, at least go out, even if maybe there isn't something better, well, at least now you know.

Right? So, like, go out there and have conversations. Yeah. Right? It's just like... Optimize that LinkedIn and let the recruiters come to you so that you can see,

oh, wait. Wait, these skills are worth how much more? What? I think that was a big wake-up call for me every time that I've job hopped. It's like, wait, you're telling me... Wait, huh? You're telling me to make 45% more? Come on. what I think that was a big wake-up call for me every time that I've job hopped is like what you're telling me uh wait 45 percent more come on how is that I've doubled stock come on I've doubled my total compensation in laterally two years girl in one from my previous role

like what yeah you know so it's like if I had not put myself in a position to say Oh, Jesus. That's amazing. Like, what? Yeah. You know? So it's like, if I had not put myself in a position to say, I can do more. There has to be better out here. I'm looking at all these other companies that I know have product managers there. Why don't I see what's out there and try to get the biggest best bet for me? And I think for me, you know, and this goes back to when we were talking about Mexico, I knew that I needed more freedom. So it's like, yeah, I want to continue to get my bag up there. I'm definitely pursuing financial freedom, but also I'm not cut out for this office work anymore.

I'm not cut out for the smiling in my leader's face to show that, hey, yeah, that I'm a team player, that the space time means more than the quality of my work. I'm just not for it anymore. I need to be able to work for Miami if I need to. I need to be able to work from wherever. The girls are in LA for Coachella. I'm trying to be click clackety clack from nine to five and now I'm outside. Right. So that was also important to me. And I knew that I was never going to get that at the current job that I had. So that meant also important to me. And I knew that I was never going to get that at the current job that I had. Yep. So that meant I have to find something else out there. And yeah, I'm really happy where I'm at now.

Like, yep. But I think I also have the perspective to know when I've worked incredibly hard to get here. I was very intentional and picky in my job search. Right. Like, yes, I cast a wide net, but when it came down to the offers that I was going to entertain, I had no negotiables that I was not about to give up. Right. And, and I think what's most important. And I'll say this. Yeah. Men do this all the time. Girl. Cause I know if I'm a listener, I might be going, Oh, non-negotiables. Can I do that? Yes, you can. Men do this shit all the fucking time all the time they're like and bring nothing to the table girl you are the table i think the other narrative

too that's related to all of this is quote loyalty, loyalty will be rewarded. And we're sold this lie, I think, especially as women. It's like, okay, but loyalty, right? And I just, I have to get on my own soapbox for a second. A company is not loyal to you ever, ever. They will fire you. They will lay you off. Even if they do treat you well, they are sometimes forced to have to make that decision, right? So you should have the same ruthlessness. If it is no longer working for you, find something better. Loyalty does not benefit you, as we were talking about before. Your most leverage comes when you are first starting a role.

Even if you've been there 10 years, even if you sign like a fucking Little Mermaid Ursula blood oath, you are still not going to have as much negotiating power as when you first get in. Yeah. Which is why you fucking doubled yourself. Jesus Christ. Come on. And I think we're seeing that, right? We're seeing these massive layoffs happen at companies where.

Was it Netflix the other day? Was it 17%? Was something crazy? I think Klarna just got rid of 10% of their workforce. Oh boy. You know, like I think the other side of that narrative around loyalty is this false sense of security, right? And I think the more that we kind of around loyalty is this false sense of security. Right.

And I think the more that we kind of tell ourselves, oh, we're comfortable and safe here. And no, I shouldn't be talking to recruiters. I shouldn't be interviewing. I think that puts us in a really vulnerable place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If it's not working for you. Yeah.

You're allowed to. You should. And you're allowed to go find better. Period. Period. And it might take a bit. It might take a bit might take yeah you know it might take six months a year right but right right but uh and it often took

me a long time yeah you'll eventually get there i worked in tech as well and i think for our community of women many people want to break into or pivot into tech because at least on the surface or like face value, it seems very lucrative, right? I know there's a lot of downsides. So what would you tell women looking to move into this space to make sure they're actually getting the best benefits without either selling their soul or having to sacrifice something that's truly important to them? Yeah. I mean, I think it first starts with understanding what are those things that are most important to you, right? Because I could be talking all day and night about equity, about unlimited PTO, but if you know that in the next few years, you really want to start a family,

you want to be able to take care of loved ones, and you need to have that kind of support. Then leave is important. Then leave is important, right? Then, you know, then having periods where you can take time off and your job is guaranteed, even if that means, you know, you're taking care of family and other things. You know, I think really having that list for you, right? I'm a young single woman. So what was important to me was having equity so that I am building wealth without even trying, without literally doing anything. It was having a limited PTO so that I could continue to prioritize travel and not come at the expense of my job. It was seeing my base salary increase so that I could continue to have more income

to put towards investments, which is going to help me retire early, right? Those are my non-negotiables, right? And it was fully remote because, again, I'm not about that office life no more. I'm not an office hottie no more. Like we did that, you know. So those were my non-negotiables. But yours might be something else. And I think really sitting with yourself and understanding what are the things that you really have enjoyed about past roles when it comes to the benefits side? And what are some things that you're curious about? past roles when it comes to the benefits side? And what are some things that you're curious about? Right.

I've never worked a job before where I had equity or unlimited PTO. It was something I was curious about. And that curiosity. It's like HGTV. It's like you're going house shopping, you know? It's like, what's my budget? Right. Do I need an entertaining kitchen? Right.

That's my only, you know, the kitchen I can entertain in. That's always it. Oh, it's a pool? I've never thought about having a pool. Exactly. Do I want the upkeep of a pool? But pool parties are fun. Yeah. And that's exactly what I was going to say. I think with that curiosity about some of the other benefits that exist, I think then that can help you direct your energy towards those companies that do it the best ways, right? We

talked about unlimited PTO. It's not a perfect benefit by any means, right? But you might say, if that's important to you, can you work for a company that has some of those guidelines in place already so you know you're going to be not changed? Or maybe you can't get unlimited PTO, but you can get three weeks, four weeks, or something larger than the standard one. Right. It's like 10 days. Yeah. Or maybe you work for a company that maybe doesn't have unlimited PTO, but maybe they have summer Fridays where you only work a half day Friday or, you know, once a quarter wellness days. Right. There's so many things that companies are thinking about nowadays to keep employees happy.

So I think really figuring out what that looks like for you and then knowing what your tradeoffs are. Right. I think the downsides of just kind of seeing tech as a monolith is that we all have such varying degrees of experience even within these big companies, right? Well, it depends on your role. It depends on, yeah. It depends on so many things, right? Like even at a company that could be an amazing place to work, right? Maybe it's consistently high ranking on these like lists that like Inc. and some of these other companies do.

You might land on a team that has a very intense culture. You might work under a leader who had yeah let's talk about that for a second because I live in Seattle Amazon Starbucks Boeing all of Microsoft all these huge companies and I think with like something like because I have friends who work at Amazon right Amazon's so big I think people don't realize that when you are hired really really, you don't work at Amazon. You work at your team at Amazon. So it's like your manager, your team, is the people you're going to be experiencing your day-to-day with. So again, during that interview process,

it's even more important to figure out, am I going to be respected? Am I going to be advocated for? Is this person relatively fun to be around? Because that's the person you're going to be talking to and who is also now in charge of advocating for you with higher ups because you're not going to bezos and being like hello excuse me i would like a raise please come on so i think can you talk a bit about yes like that of like many companies within a company

basically absolutely i mean you hit the nail on the head i think that you could work for a company, basically. Absolutely. I mean, you hit the nail on the head. I think that you could work for a company that, yeah, is such an amazing place to work and then work under a leader who's literally making your life hell. Right. And it's it's it's very possible and it happens all the time. I think for me, what has helped is in those interview cycles, not being afraid to ask the sometimes uncomfortable questions, right? Some of those questions like, can you tell me about who filled this role in the past, right? Like, is this a role that's being backfilled? Is this a brand new role, right? Like, that can give you some insights, right? Is there turnover on this team that you're not aware of, right? Because I've definitely been in those situations where, hey, maybe someone didn't kind of tell me on the side, hey, this team has a lot

of turnover because the manager at the top is crazy, right? You know, so I'm thinking, you know, just out of the events that happened in Buffalo this week, asking those people that are going to, that you're going to report into, like, what employee resource groups are you a part of? Like, are you involved in these communities, right? Like, asking the question of, hey, going. What's the DEI initiative? Right. How have you championed diversity and inclusion on this team?

I noticed that there are no people of color in my interview process. Will this be reflective of my experience on this team? And if so, what are you doing to change that? Because it's 2022, right? And obviously, you know, I'm being sassy with it. But this is such the questions to ask. And I think you've said it multiple times, Tori, as much as those companies are interviewing you,

you need to be interviewing those potential teammates. And again, they will respect you more and think higher of you. And you are more likely to get the job with that kind of energy. And then something else that, you know, we will also say, even when you get a job, you can keep interviewing, sis. Like, come on. You might get in the doors and realize every job is an open relationship. Every job is an open relationship.

Come on. You're an at-will employee. And most employers are at-will employers. Come on. You're an at-will employee. And most employers are at-will employers. Come on. So also keep that in mind, that you don't have to be locked into any situation just because, oh, I just accepted this job. It's not what I expected. Girl, keep interviewing, right? I quit a job after 12 weeks because it was so toxic.

And granted, I spent three months unemployed, but had an emergency fund, would 100% do it again. Yeah. Because I couldn't do it. Yeah. And I know people who have been in jobs for years, right? Come on. Because it's like, okay, I have to tough it out. At this point, the price of your peace is sometimes worth a lot more than what you think

you're going to get out of staying in a job that's not fit for you or staying in a team where you know that it's going to be an isolating experience. No one wants that. And no one should have to deal with that, right? No. It's hard enough, right? Like you are a hard worker. You bring great skills. You do not have to sit in a space where you feel like you're not being included, where you don't feel like your voice is being included, where you don't feel like your voice is being heard, where you don't feel seen, those things matter definitely in terms of how you'll continue to thrive in that role.

Yeah. So you and I have very similar trajectories. HFK was a side hustle for me. You are working a nine-to-five, Fly Nance does a side hustle. Yeah. How are you managing both? What sort of tips or tricks do you have for people? What are the fun parts of that? are working a nine to five fly dance does the side hustle yeah how are you managing both what

sort of tips or tricks do you have for people what are the fun parts of that what are the not so fun parts about that break that down for me yeah so coming out of 2021 where I definitely put myself through a incredible amount of burnout by trying to think I could do I could travel I could create content I could work a nine to five I could have a social life all in one. And I can also keep applying for jobs. Yeah, girl, like, ma'am, you're not Superman. I think for me, it's being very clear on my boundaries of like, when work starts and when work ends. So outside of my nine to five is my time to dedicate time to time block for my business. But between nine to five hours, short of, okay, if I have a little whim or something comes to mind that I want to hop on stories, I'm not working in my business. You know, I'm delegating that elsewhere. I'm outsourcing

that. Or I'm just letting things wait until I can put my attention on it. I think that's huge, right? I think especially for those of us that are pivoting into remote jobs, I think we think, oh yeah, I can just create reels in the side. Girl, don't. Don't set yourself up for that. One, in terms of being able to be present in your job, but then two, that'll turn into burnout real easy when it's just like, yeah, it's not sustainable. It's not sustainable. Right. So, you know, I think a trick that's really helped me is really time blocking. Right. So it's not to say that I can't do, I can't find that balance. But I think for me, it's like, hey,

they're going to be two days out of the week every week where I'm just not doing anything. I'm not agreeing to go out. I'm not agreeing to, you know, sign up for all these things, right? Like oftentimes we're overscheduling, you know, ourselves because we think, oh yeah, it's free time. No, keep some time that's sacred for yourself to invest in your side hustle, to work on things that are important and then set aside those days to say, yeah, this is going to be a content day. This is going to be a pitch day. This is going to be whatever that looks like for your business, right? And I think for me, it's also I think find that balance to say if I can find the time to go out, party, chill with my friends, then where can I also find the time to invest in myself? Like this is something I'm passionate about. I know that this is part of the purpose that I have on this planet. I have to tell myself that, that it's like I can't let my side hustle or my business just kind of feel like, oh, it's just a hobby I do on this planet. I have to tell myself that, that it's like, I can't let my side hustle or my

business just kind of feel like, oh, it's just a hobby I do on the side. Girl, no, this is like something that's important to you. So in the same vein that you can find 40 hours every week to put towards your nine to five, we can find at least 10 a week to put towards our business. And if there are things additionally that I need, then that's a great opportunity to bring in someone to get that off your plate. Cause girl, you don't have to do everything and you shouldn't have to if there are things additionally that I need, then that's a great opportunity to bring in someone to get that off your plate. Cause girl, you don't have to do everything and you shouldn't have to do everything. Um, so those have been kind of some of the tricks. I think the downside is that I, and we kind of talked about this off, off mic, but, um, it kind of feels like I'm always working,

right? Like being an entrepreneur, um, having ideas, still feeling like there's so much more that I want to do. It does kind of feel like I'm always thinking about ways I could improve my business, take it to the next level. And, you know, I think I'm also in the space where I just kind of realize I don't really have no hobbies no more. Except for like traveling, working, working for myself and working out. I had my most recent partner was like you don't what you don't have a hobby like do i have hobbies i'm like my business was my hobby he's like well now your business is your full-time thing so what's your hobby and i'm like reading which is a hobby yeah it is a hobby i'm like thinking about my business that's like journaling yeah that's a hobby about

my business reading self-development's a hobby. About my business. Reading. Self-development books. Listening to podcasts about my business. No, it's true. Literally. So, you know, I think I'm still figuring that out. I'm definitely still a 9 to 5 hottie.

I'm having the grind season, but, like, it's fine. It's fine. No, and I think a lot of people ask me about that. And, again, we talk about this in the book. keep shamelessly plugging it but because we talk about all this should same sleep it's your podcast so you should podcast do whatever i want no but with i think again it's easy to like feel like that's why i asked you to find to define hustle because when i was growing my business on the side i was hustling my ass off absolutely but i was still getting eight hours of sleep that was my non-negotiable I was hustling my ass off. Absolutely. But I was still getting eight hours of sleep.

Absolutely. That was my non-negotiable. That was like, I could not operate. I still can't. I cannot operate on a bad night's sleep. Yeah. I just can't do it. Yeah. And it was like, I am willing to work because this thing, to your point, is the thing I

love to do and the thing I really want. Yeah. Now, if you're doing this, you know, and there's privilege in the statement too, because some people side hustle, right? It's not a side hustle. It's a second job. Right. and there's there's privilege in the statement too because some people side hustle right it's not a side hustle it's a second job right so there's we have to acknowledge that for people who are using a side hustle as you know not a necessity yeah if you don't absolutely love it cool do it a minimum amount of hours or like forego it you don't need it yeah but i think for you and i it was like no this is this is the thing I want to do and so it yes it is work but like it doesn't really feel like work because we're building shit absolutely yeah and and I think for me I think I have to also hold myself accountable to

know that not so long ago I mean like literally three years ago I was in a place where I literally thought no one would I couldn't imagine myself having the platform that I have, talking about personal finance, talking about money, talking about things that I was once so ashamed to talk about to even like my friends and family about, let alone 100,000 people online about, right? Like, I've made money mistakes, right? Like, I was, I've never thought that I would be someone that would be a personal finance creator influence girl I was like if you literally found me in like 2018 I was just like yeah one day you'll be like like girl I would have been like I say the same thing I was a theater

and communication major like first question people meet me and they're like, oh, you study finance. And I'm like, yeah, no. No, I did not. No, no, no, no. Yeah. So I think also remembering the woman that I was, the woman that I want to become, right? I think that also motivates me to say absolutely like what you're saying. I'm not going to kill myself to make this business what I want it to be. Right.

But I know that there's so much more that I want to give to it because not so long ago, I couldn't even imagine this space. And I know how life-changing the content I've been able to put out there, how it's helping other women. So that makes me know that I'm on the right path. So we got to keep going. You reached the 100K Club recently. Girl, did I.

Welcome. Thank you. Welcome to your first 100k thank you what is your next major goal financial or otherwise i would say my next major goal financially is really to hit that next big financial independence milestone like of a 200k net worth or higher i I think on my business side, definitely to do six figures in revenue this year is something I'm not just wishing for, but actively projecting and definitely plan to hit before the end of the year. And then just as an aside, I'm going to put it out there because I'm just, you know, I'm a master manifester. I really want to buy my mom a really nice car. Like, and I want my business to

be able to do that. Like she's given me so much and I want to be able to give her things that make me slightly teary. That's lovely. You know, like so I want to put that out there and just kind of make space for that. Because, you know, when I, when I think about my business and I'm so glad that you said that, I feel incredibly privileged to know that I'm here doing this because I want to, doing this because I feel like there is a voice that's missing in this space. And it's something you love and brings you joy and energy rather than depleting it. And I think with that, like, I have a lot of integrity about, like, the things that I put out there, the brands I choose to work with. like the things that I put out there, the brands I choose to work with. So I think seeing my business be successful means that I can pour into the women around me. And, you know, that that's always going to start with the woman that literally gave me everything so that I could even be,

you know, in this position. So I would put that out there, too. That that's a big goal that I have for myself. And I would love to be able to do that for her this year. I love it. OK, a couple rapid fire things. Let's do it. OK. What are you saying to the person who's either graduating high school or graduating college and has no idea what the fuck they want to do? I am saying, sis, get on LinkedIn. Don't be afraid to connect with as many people as possible in the jobs that you think are even remotely interesting. Get on some newsletters of people that are talking about internships and early grad careers like the ninth semester. And stop telling yourself that just because you didn't major in XYZ, you're not capable of doing these things. Because I think we've shown over this episode that you can do whatever you put your mind to.

Yeah. And there's always space to reinvent yourself if you want to. Always. I think you're going to have a similar answer, but somebody who's in a career and wants to get out and try something new. I would say, sis, to really sit down, think about what are those transferable skills that you have and really start to plug those into some of these job sites and see what comes back, right? I think sometimes we need to sit down and really do a bit of discovery, right? To kind of see what are the jobs that are already aligned with the skills that I have?

Just because I've always been an executive assistant doesn't mean I can't become a program manager tomorrow in tech, right? The jobs are the same, but we call them different. We pay them differently, but that doesn't mean that you're not qualified to do it. So I would say really lean into that discovery. Look into what those transferable skills that you have. Follow more creators like me who are giving you a taste of the jobs that are out there and just try some shit,

right? Like there's no wrong way that you can go about your career. There's no wrong way. There's no wrong way. You're always going to learn things that are going to put you in a position to win in the next or next, next, next time's over. Lastly, somebody who keeps getting passed over for promotion and feels like they have to stay. Girl, get the fuck out of there. Seriously, stop giving your years and especially if you are a young woman, these, I mean, if you're below the age of 35, especially, like, these are some of our prime earning years in terms of the time that we have, that we could be putting this money and compounding it to help us build wealth. Do not sit around and let these people breadcrumb you, girl. Stop letting them play with your money. And let's get you pivoting into another well-paid job so that you can see that there's so much more opportunity out here. I love it. Tell us where people can find you. Oh, the girls,

the 95 hotties can always find me, um, really anywhere on social media where you can find Fly Nance. I'm on Instagram at fly.nance. My website is flynance.com. That's F-L-Y-N-A-N-C-E-D.com. You can email me at hello at flynance.com. And I'd love to hear from you. Definitely let me know that you heard me on the Financial Feminist Podcast. I love it. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me, Tori, and for always seeing me and supporting me. Like, you are incredible. I feel so blessed to be able to share this space with you, to be able to, you know, see another young woman creator just kicking ass and taking names and showing us, like, we can create whatever the fuck we want in this world. Like, I love it. I love your energy. So thank you for having me.

Thank you, babe. Thank you again to Sunia for joining us. We are so thrilled to share more of her expertise and background over on our social channels and we'll make sure to link her handles in the show notes as well. If you're not following us at Her First 100K, that is the best place to get even more additional content. If y'all think the podcast is valuable, like imagine what our Instagram, TikTok, our website look like, herfirst100k.com, y'all. If you want more content like this, make sure to subscribe to Financial Feminist on your preferred podcasting platform. Leave us a review and share the show with your friends and family. It means the world to us,

and it helps us continue to do valuable episodes like this one. Thank you, as always, Financial Feminist, for your support of the show, for your support of this movement. I'm going to do a quick shameless plug for my book. If you have not pre-ordered my brand new book, Financial Feminist, Overcome the Patriarchy's Bullshit to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love, it is available in ebook, audiobook, as well as physical copy wherever you get your books. Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Books a Million, your independent bookstore. People keep asking me like, is it going to be at this bookstore? Y'all, this is going to be a national thing. It's going to be at every bookstore. And if you pre-order it, it's going to be guaranteed to be at all these bookstores. So if you haven't got your copy, it's like less

than $20. I can't wait for you to read it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. See you next week. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Olivia Koenig, Charisse Wade, Alina Hilzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Koenig, and Ana Alexandra. Research by Arielle Johnson. Audio engineering by Austin Fields. Promotional graphics by Mary

Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, episode show notes, and our upcoming book, also titled Financial Feminist, visit herfirst100k.com.