Financial Feminist - 4. Breaking Down the Racial Wealth Gap + Minority Appraisal Crisis, with Tiffany Aliche aka The Budgetnista

Episode Date: May 28, 2021

How does money affect BIPOC differently? What does the pay gap mean for women of color? In my conversation with Tiffany Aliche (you might know her as “The Budgetnista”), we talk about the racial wealth gap, the appraisal crisis, how to overcome money shame as a person of color, and the tangible ways white allies can support the BIPOC community and individuals. Tiffany Aliche, AKA the “The Budgetnista”, is an award-winning financial educator and author. Tiffany’s book, Get Good with Money is currently a New York Times Bestseller. Not sure where to start with your finances? Take the free Money Personality Quiz to get tailored resources for your financial journey: https://treasury.app/herfirst100k/money-journey-quiz Official Financial Feminist Merch: herfirst100k.com/hfk-merch Follow Tiffany on Instagram: www.instagram.com/thebudgetnista INSTAGRAM: www.instagram.com/herfirst100k TIKTOK: www.tiktok.com/@herfirst100k FACEBOOK GROUP: www.facebook.com/groups/362601367623070/ Pre-Order “Financial Feminist: Overcome the Patriarchy’s Bullsh*t to Master Your Money and Build a Life You Love”: https://bit.ly/3PpHvlC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello team, welcome back. Welcome back to Financial Feminist. I am Tori Dunlap, money speaker and educator, founder of Her First 100K, and that girl who has no original thoughts because they're all John Mulaney quotes. Today's guest, oh gosh guys, I'm so excited for this. Today's guest is Tiffany Aliche, aka The Budgenista. She'll introduce herself way better than I can, but I knew she had to be a guest on the show when we were launching the podcast. herself way better than I can, but I knew she had to be a guest on the show when we were launching the podcast. I mean, she has a fucking law named after her focusing on financial literacy for kids in Jersey. This is something we'll discuss when we get into the episode, but I mean, how dope is that? We talk about the racial wealth gap, how her work as a teacher led her to educating others

about money. And that one time she lost $30,000 on an investing scam. Y'all know I love grifters, but this is one of those stories that you need to hear in order for you to not fall victim as well. This episode is going to make you laugh and cry. I cry yet again in this episode. You're going to realize that I cry in almost every episode of the season. The conversations are just that good. She's been one of those people, one of those women in the personal finance space that I've looked up to for years. And I absolutely loved our conversation. So as always, if you love the show, rate and review, subscribe, tell your friends. We appreciate your support of our mission and this movement that we're building here at Her First 100K, here at the Financial Feminist Podcast. So enough of me. Let's dive in. Let's do this.

It's so good to see you. It's so good to finally meet. I realized we haven't actually met. I know. I was thinking that. I was like, how have I not met Tori? You know what? The social media streets, it's just, you feel so familiar. Cause you're like, oh, hey, yeah, oh, congrats. And then you're like, wait, I've never met her. We haven't even spoken. So this is awesome. I know. You look great in yellow, by the way.

That is your color. You look fantastic. Thank you. I have like so many with my book dropping. I have so many interviews. So I was like, I have to like, yeah, I'm not usually like a makeup girl, but I had to learn quickly in quarantine. I'm not, we're not using the video other than promotional purposes, but you'll see, you

know, if somebody follows either of us on Instagram, you'll see that she's beautifully made up and I am in a sweatshirt and no makeup because that's my life now. And low-key, this is a sweatshirt straight from Target. I think it's actually a pajama top, but it looks so cute. Yes, from Target. It does. Yes, I know you would never know. And I'm almost positive it's a pajama top, but it doesn't look like it. That's very smart. I will often do business top party on the bottom. So I'll do leggings or sweats on the bottom and then I'll just put a sweater on,

which is like professional enough, but it's still comfortable. Yes, I do too. Like literally I'm wearing like my husband's sweatpants at the bottom. And every once in a while, like if I'm recording like something, like, you know, the news or whatever.

And they're like, oh, can you adjust the window in the back? I'm like, you're going to see my bottoms. Just temporarily. Yes. See what's going on down below. That's so funny. Um,

well, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for, uh, for joining us. I don't have to tell you that I admire you and your work so much, a shit ton. And I am so honored just to have you on the show and to be able to chat with

you. Um, tell us who you are and tell us about your kind of financial journey, because it's very unique, I think, amongst us financial experts. You kind of had a windy, non-linear path. So talk to me about that. Well, I am Tiffany Aliche, but much better known as the Budgetnista Financial Educator. And I didn't think I was going to become, I think like most of us didn't think we were going to become like financial educators. But I just, I didn't know I was going to be an educator. So before I was started at the Budget Mista, I actually was a teacher.

I got my master's in education and I thought maybe I'd be a principal. The finance stuff really just was stuff I learned at home. My father was a CFO and an accountant. And so normally, because I'm born and raised here in America, but my parents were raised in Nigeria. It's very male-dominated culture. So normally, if we would have had a brother, it would have been, I teach the brother all the financial man things. And then brother will take care of sisters.

But after one girl two girls three girls five girls my mom was like there's no more babies coming we're not having any more kids I'm one of five girls like you need to teach all of our daughters a lot of money right isn't that so awesome though I think about that all the time that I promise you if I would have had just one brother I wouldn't have known anything and so my dad was like, well, then just come on, come on down. And so he taught us like, it wasn't, it was intentional. Literally Thursday nights, we would have our, our, like our family meetings. We played like board games and things like that. But we would also be like, this is how you budget. This is how you save. You got your first job. You would bring

your paycheck to my dad and he would show you you how to separate your money and what things that, what did you buy and what category would that go in? When I went off to college and tried to understand credit cards, my dad helped me navigate through. It was the best thing ever. And then I also learned how to mow the lawn. Like literally, I was like, I don't know how to learn. He's like, yeah, you got to learn. I learned how to change my own oil. Because he was like, you don't want to lie. He's like, you ain't going to learn. I'm going to change my own oil. Because he was like, you have to know all the things. And he's since come around and realized that like, you know, I'm glad that I had all girls. And I'm glad that, you know, I realized like the value and the benefit and, you know, kind of like the culture that I grew up in. I understand why it was so, but he said, it doesn't make sense. Like women have to

learn how to take care of themselves as well. And I remember him telling me like, I'm glad you guys are so well prepared because I want that. If you decide to ever get married, it's a choice rather than you feeling like you must for someone to take care of you. So that was like the best. That's amazing. And so, yeah, it's just, so that's what I grew up with. And it was just something that I share with my friends all the time, especially when I went to college like my college roommate had um debt collectors calling the dorm room and I never even heard of that before we thought it was hilarious because you know you're like 17 18 we're like oh perfect time for prank calls we'd pick up

with different voices or like would you like to order a pizza? Like, nobody live here. Like, I went home to tell my dad, like, oh my God, let me tell you what happened this weekend. That collector's calling the room. He's like, Tiffany, that's like serious. I'm like, is it? And he was like, this is what you tell her. So that was the first time that I took what I learned and shared it with someone. And I was like, okay. So I was like counseling her directly. Like my dad said, you should do this. My dad said, and then it became like the things that I learned, like that I just retained and knew like, no girl, you should do that. And then, um, what happened is like, you know, how news spreads, like, especially on college campus, like sometimes it's like, Ooh, she's

really great at relationship advice. Like, Oh my gosh, she's really good. Like if you need someone to read over your paper, you know, and like check for grammar, I became, you have a money issue, go see Tiffany. And so, but, and I loved it. So what it did was it made me take more classes and learn more because people had questions that I didn't have answers to. I was like, credit, never thought about it. Let me learn more. And then I was already in school. So at first, my initial major was finance. So I took all my finance classes and realized that it seemed like a pretty boring afterlife after college. I was like, I don't want to do this. Afterlife?

I was like, I don't want to. I don't want to. But I had taken all those classes. I was like, I don't want to, I don't want to, but I had taken all those classes. And, um, and then once I graduated, like for me in particular, I just remember thinking like, how do you want to live life? Tiffany? I was really, I'm still big on that now that, you know, money is cool and everything, but how do you actually want to live your life? You had some internships in corporate America and you felt like dying on the inside. Is that what we want to do for the money to die on the inside every day? I'm so dramatic. I was like, do you want to die on the inside?

That's how I felt too. But it's really funny you bring that up because I had a very similar financial education where it was like, my parents taught me how to money, you know, don't ever spend on credit cards, budget, learn how to negotiate. I saw my dad negotiate our cable bill on the phone like once every other

month. My mom would balance a checkbook and I thought that was normal. And same thing, I got to college and I was like, oh, this is not normal and especially not normal for women. And I was the friend all of my friends were coming to for advice and guidance. So we have very similar stories, which I didn't know. Yeah, so it was very much like the realization that, oh, you know, this is not normal. And it's not normal for most women. If you would have had a brother, he would have been educated and you wouldn't have. And we both hear these stories all the time of, yeah, my husband manages the finances and I don't. Or, yeah, my dad taught my brother, but he didn't teach me.

And that's why I think it's so important that we talk about money as women. No, absolutely. Because too, it gives you freedom and you get to choose how you want to navigate, you know? And what it did too was it wasn't just freedom of choosing like a mate, but it was really like, once I graduated college, I remember thinking like, okay, so you had this internships in corporate, you hated it. Now what? You know, so like I felt pretty solid and I can choose something where I'm going to make less and be okay. But that's huge to be able to say, do I choose a job?

I think like the corporate job, it was like I was working. So ShopRite is like the big supermarket chain here in the east coast and um and so um Wake Fern is their parent company and I was working in corporate Wake Fern fun and they offered me like I know it was not and so they offered me a position um it was going to start at $50,000 a year which which, you know, 2021. You've never seen that amount of money. What? Same thing with me. I was like 50. My first job out of school was 55. And I was like, that's a lot of money. That's a lot of money.

Yes. That's more money than I've ever seen in my life. Exactly. And like, it's not like you have a ton of bills. But then I remember the thing I really enjoyed was I really loved teaching. Like I used to like, in the summertime, a friend of mine worked as a teacher and I would go to her classroom, sometimes help out and read to the kids. And I taught Sunday school and I just really loved teaching, but I was afraid to say, I want to be a teacher because I

know it doesn't pay as much. And I secretly found a teaching job and it paid 39,000. And the part I was worried about was more so disappointing my parents and not taking a more quote unquote prestigious job. I wasn't worried about the finances because I knew how to manage on the 39. And so knowing about money and understanding money allows you to make choices that are in your best interest, not just like who you're going to be with, but like what you do with your life. And so I chose to teach. And when I tell you, Tori, I loved, I loved, I loved it. Cause I taught preschool. I don't think there's anything cuter than a three and four year old. Oh, no, they're the cutest. And they just learn up and they're like,

hi, you want to play in the sandbox and be best friends? And they're like, yes. Like that's how you make friends when you're four. It's just like, would you like to be my friend? Yes, I would. I wish we would do that now they're just learning because they have just enough language to express themselves and be hilarious without knowing it and but just knowing not enough that you know they haven't picked up on like all the bad habits that we have as adults so they're just like delightful and I loved it like literally my friends would call me and I'd be like oh girl I gotta go I'm it's I'm next on the swings they're like wait what you know my friends who worked in corporate and so they're like on their lunch and you're like yeah I'm I'm

taking care of human beings no big deal and so like I said I didn't in comparison to my friends who went to law school or who were lawyers or worked in corporate, I was making, you know, a good chunk less. But what I noticed was I had more saved. You know, I didn't have credit card debt. And I was in a better financial situation than my friends. So they started to lean on me again and said, how? Because you make less than us and you seem to be doing better financially. And then when I found, because I worked in a school, I worked in a place in town that was like, there were just people who were really struggling financially.

So parents sometimes would ask to borrow money. And I'd be like, well, I can't do that. But during that time, when the kids go to sleep, you can come in and I can help you with your budget. I can help you show you how to save. I remember because my dad taught me when I was a teenager how to do my own taxes and I remember like especially in this neighborhood like people were spending hundreds of dollars on going to like the local tax you know like H&R Block or whatever and like I was like I bought um TurboTax for my computer and I remember one day I'm doing

my tax on my computer and my fellow teachers were like what are you doing I'm like I'm doing my taxes they're like wait you know how to do taxes I'm like my tax on my computer and my fellow teachers were like, what are you doing? I'm like, I'm doing my taxes. They're like, wait, you know how to do taxes? I'm like, well, TurboTax just basically just walk through. They're like, can you do mine? I'm like, no, because the teacher in me is always like, I can show you, sit next to me. Yeah. Because I wanted to be able to empower you to do it. TurboTax cost me like 80 bucks.

I think it was like my sister's and I used to split, you know, like, you know, 20 from you, 20 from you. And we would use it. So then the teacher had a fish, right. Instead of having them fish, let me teach how to fish. Yeah. And I didn't think like that. Okay.

This is the start of the budget Nista. So, but I enjoyed it so much that the parents would come during nap time. The teachers would come, the, the, the, the handymen would come and like who were like helping to clean up and like literally. And so I remember thinking, Hey, cause I really do believe that the purpose of life is to live a life of service so I remember thinking um I like this like um I want to do more of this like for volunteer work and so that's how and originally when I started the budget nista it was going to be a non-profit um and I was like you know so I'd ask my baby sister what should I call myself because I was going to like um donate my time to like boys and girls clubs and YMCAs and schools

and things. And Lisa at the time was, I think she was in college or high school. And she was like, you know, like the fashionista and how well she dresses. I was like, yeah. She's like, that's not you. Cause you know, baby sisters, baby sisters were born to be shady. You're honest. Yes.

I was like, what? She was like, you're pretty cheap. I would call you the budget nista. And I was like, I actually like that name, you shady, shady McBaby. The branding expertise. My goodness. And so the budget nista, it was originally the name that I was just going to use when I went into school system. So it wouldn't seem so scary for the kids to hear about money.

So that was in 2008. And then 2009, the recession hit in 2008, but it did not affect me. And I wasn't worried because I thought teachers didn't lose their jobs. The 2009, I was wrong because we were nonprofit based. So I lost my job three days before the new school year. And it was devastating. Yeah. So if you're a teacher, you know that usually you save your money for the summer. And by the end of the summer, you're like depleted your savings because you lived off your savings from not working. So some school systems will pay you

through the school year and some will only pay you for 10 months and they say, save your money. And you have to live off that. Or maybe you work during the summer to make extra money so I always saved a chunk to live off it during the summer so I didn't have to work and so I was depleted basically my savings like that's okay you know we're about to start school and we got the call and they were like you know we weren't able to get our funding from our corporate sponsors so school is closed indefinitely and I remember being like, cause there were a series of misfortunate events that happened prior to that. And that like, I was a victim of credit card of a credit card scam that left me $35,000 in debt. So I was told me about that. Yes. How did that happen? How do you, how do you recommend people

avoid that? Like, listen to that voice that's screaming inside you. Don't do it. I know. I know. So I wrote about it. Trust your gut. Always, always, always. So like I wrote about it, actually, in my new book, Gag It With Money. So I called this guy, Jake the Thief. Right. And so Jake, not his real name. I had met him on like spring break, like, I don't know, maybe when I was like 22 or whatever, but we became friends. And I just remember like we were probably friends by the time the we the scam happened five years so he wasn't like a new person you know we talked like all the time and he when you're young because something looks like money you think that people actually have money I'm old enough now to know like anybody

can pretend but he had like uh like a really nice apartment penthouse apartment one of these like really like fancy cars he always had like some like amazing watch on you know I thought Jake was wealthy and I remember asking Jake like Jake how do you make your money because I want to learn how to invest and he was like oh you know because he told me like oh I invest and that's how I make money I'm like perfect instead of asking my seasoned father who could have like you know I was like why ask my father let me ask Jake the thief and so Jake your dad is index funds in this perspective and Jake is like you know yes like like the hot stock tip he's GameStop GameStop yeah exactly because I don't think my dad that you're exactly right Tori my dad was like slow and steady that was his

favorite phrase is slow and steady wins the race and I was like not interested in that I want to get rich fast and um but honestly because here's really what I wanted to do my dad and mom worked so hard they immigrated here from Nigeria that secretly I wanted to retire them so I wanted to learn how to invest so I can make a lot of money so I could say because my mom was a nurse and it's hard on the body being a nurse and and I just wanted them not to have to work anymore. So Jake told me, you know, he gave me a bunch of options. I can't, I can't remember like what specifically they were, but the option that I chose to invest, he said, well, he's originally from Paris, France, and he has a number of stores there. And they, they like, um, um, they love like Levi's and Converse and you know, like how we like French perfume and

it's more money here, but you get it France it's cheaper so these American goods authentic American goods um can be sold for more in his stores and it was if I invested how much did he say it was um twenty thousand dollars that we would buy twenty thousand dollars worth of goods and then he would sell it and it would yield me $2,000 a week for two years. I don't even know how the math worked out, but it sounded like good to me. I was like, bet. So I never even had, I had one little, little tiny credit card with like a $500 limit that my dad told me to get when I was in college that I paid off every month in full. You do the math. I'm literally doing the math. How much is that? 2000. So what is that I'm literally doing the math. How much is that? 2,000.

So what is that? 2,000 times 52 times two. How much is that? That's 208 bucks. Off of a, so you're investing, you invested like 10%, right? Yes. So that's cause you know, so me, I was like, well, clearly Jake can't be lying. He's my friend.

The math works. Yeah. I know him for five whole years and look at his watch. I mean, he's great. And the math works. The math works great. I love this math. Right. And honestly, in the back of my head, there was like, hmm, seems like a lot.

Too good to be true. Yes. Too good to be true. He's my friend. He wouldn't do that. I've known him for too long. And then I could have at least like run it by my father and say, hey, daddy, here's a proposition that a friend of mine made. What do you think?

He would have been like, girl, it's a lie. These numbers don't even make sense. Nobody invests. Not to say it's impossible, but it's very unlikely to invest $20,000 and get back $200,000 plus. Well, and the risk you have to take on too. Yes. thousand plus well and the risk you have to take on too right and that's that's what i tell all these people with the game stop and all that shit is like okay you may have won big but how much did you have to risk in order to do that or how much did you lose in order to get that amount of money so so is jake doing this on purpose like well i think that he was doing this to multiple people

that's how he had all the stuff now that i like i could step back so he wasn't like an innocent person where he was like oh no no recruit you like he was a thief so he knew yeah so he said Tiffany I said well I don't have twenty thousand dollars because I didn't I was like you know and I like not saved up and he said that's okay you can open up additional credit cards you can open up additional credit cards and do what's called a cash advance, which you might as well just jump out the window. So I was like, oh, sounds good to me. And this is what I mean. You literally will get like it's like warning, warning, warning.

And when I tell you I ignore it. I remember in particular, I went to a bank that was one of my credit cards and I went and I said hey I think this bank I was taking out ten thousand dollars from that particular because I had to open up multiple cards to get the full 20 literally the bank people kept me there for an hour they were like are you okay are you being threatened you think Tori I would have been like why would they ask that I was like no because I look so young to be taking out $10,000 with a car that I just opened up. They were running. And you're also young and you don't, you don't know any better. Yes.

You don't know, like banks usually don't ask this question to me. So I was like, I'm fine. And they were just like, are you sure? Is someone forcing you to do this? I was like, no, no. I mean, I just, I can't believe it. I was just sitting there and you know, it's so crazy. Like when I used to teach preschool, they used to make us wear nursing scrubs.

So I'm wearing like my nursing scrub with the teddy bears on top and like pink. So they probably were like. You probably look like this. Oh, completely innocent. Just like. Innocent fool of a young woman. And so they gave me the money and cash. I was like, thanks guys.

Cause they did every tool. Appreciate it. I know. Because everything. I'll be back in cash. I was like, thanks guys. Because they did every tool. Appreciate it. I know. Because everything was legit. I'll be back in two weeks with depositing, you know, $2,000. I know. So I gave. And the thing is, I was like, I'm not a fool.

Me and Jake signed a contract. And so we did sign a contract, but a contract that's not enforceable if you can't find the person. As soon as I gave him the money, I was like, he's like, you know, me a couple weeks I'm gonna sell the goods we'll be good to go and I said okay in the meantime I was like you know what I never really had like a credit card before like one that I could use I think it was like burning a hole in my hand and I was like you know what I'm about to have all this new money I should learn how maybe I'll start a business and so there was I won't say the financial guru's name because he's still active but there was a financial guru who was who had these um an online course before online courses are all the rage right now and you could take this course it was like a one-year two-year course and

they would like walk you through starting and launching your business and so does his name happen to sound like rave damsey no we can cut this out he's yeah he's the worst yeah no you don't have to cut that out girl please we want me and me and mandy went in on him on my podcast brown ambition we went in so i have been publicly for like years we can talk about that if you want but yeah so we'll talk about the racial wealth gap in a second i love all this we will so i i went in but this is why it's so important because so many of us black and brown folks are not privy to financial education. So you are vulnerable to things like this. So it all ties

in. So, so anyway, I was like, oh my gosh, I really want to learn how to start a business. So I bought his program for the tune of $15,000. So all of a sudden I went from no credit card debt to in like one week 35,000 dollars in credit card debt and I was feeling you had lifestyle inflation before your lifestyle had even inflated exactly and so it took me like a couple weeks I have not heard from Jake the Thief so I'm calling him calling him calling him frantic frantic frantic and what's so bad for six months he strung me along you didn't get it it's coming check your inbox what what let me call like so i didn't fall and i'm obsessed with con people like i love reading the con stories and that it's the classic thing yes they either cut and run or they just say like oh you didn't get the transfer let me do it again let me do it yeah and i was

like so i wasn't feeling scared i was like take it and come through right oh no well you know call the bank all of this and then he tried to get more money out of me he was like oh you know while I'm waiting for this do you think you can lend me something for this and I was like well Jake I haven't gotten my initial money yet right anyway it was just um it took me honestly I would say a full year for it to sink in now I was not going to get my money because I can stop answering my calls. I'm so sorry. No, no. Honestly, I'm grateful for it because up until then, I was basically financially perfect. I had credit score was like an 802. I had savings. My retirement account, I was like maxing it out every year. I was doing everything right, but I was just doing what I was told.

So I stepped out on my own and made this mistake and it forced me to learn for myself how to fix myself and in turn that's what I used to help other people and so um yeah like but you know like I there it wasn't like I could go to the credit card company I did and said this is what happened they're like yes but you you you know you participated unfortunately in your own scamming. So I owe the $35,000 and it was hard because normally, I didn't want to take responsibility, honestly. I said, no, I'm going to find Jake. He's going to pay me. So for a year, I just paid the minimums. And if had I buckled down, I could have at least shaved maybe $10,000 off. Because by then maybe I was making like $50,000 as a teacher or $60,000 as a teacher. Well, it's also tanking your credit score while this is happening, most likely.

But I didn't, you know, I had no idea, like, well, whatever that means. Because what had prior to that had happened is I bought a condo for $220,000. So now I have a mortgage. My undergrad, I commuted. And so I was able to pay off the little bit of student loan debt that I did have because my parents helped pay for undergrad, but I got my master. So now I have $52,000 in student loan debt for the first time. And then there's $35,000 in credit card debt. So I went from like no debt to be like $300,000 in debt. And then, like I said,

I didn't want to take responsibility for that debt to the credit card debt to shave it down. In 2009, when I finally was like, okay, Tiffany, we're going to buckle down. We have to get rid of this credit card debt. You know, I know you feel wrong by Jake, but you have to get rid of it. And then to find out, oh, by the way, there's no job to go back to. My world came, I was like, does it get worse than this? Scam, all this money owed, I was like, does it get worse than this? Scam, all this money owed, no money coming in. And yeah, but I had to,

there was no person that came to save me. I had to step by step pay off. I lost my house to foreclosure. That was all that money that I had put into the house gone. I had to move back home with my parents. I was fortunate that I could sleep like, you know, and back in my middle school bed for a year. Then I slept on my sister's couch for a year and I dug my way out. I paid off the credit card debt. You know, like I didn't, I did, I considered filing for bankruptcy,

but I decided not to, cause I just didn't want that stain. I'm like, oh, you already have foreclosure, girl. We can't, we can't be long and strong, you know, like, you know, and so, and student loan debt, I was like, I was just a so um and um student loan day I was like I was just a deferment queen you know I was like thank god that they were federal student loans I was like forbearance see you in two years you know like I just kept doing forbearance you know but as I was like cleaning myself up and fixing myself it took a moment because it was about a year and a half where I just fell into a deep depression and I did nothing. Except for everything was kind of automated. Like all my, all my, the credit card debt, I was paying like just the minimum with the unemployment that

I was receiving. And then a friend of mine kind of like shook me up because I was in, I was deep in shame. Like me, Tiffany, good with her money. Tiffany was deep in shame. And then a friend basically let me know that, like, I don't have anything to be ashamed about that. So many people were struggling in that. I've made a mistake. I had not kicked the puppy. Girl, you messed up with your money. It happens. And so that's what it took to kind of shake me up. It doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't mean, you know. Exactly. I don't, did you know, you and I were on the same page. I don't believe in that shame financial education. Like, what are we doing?

What's, I'm realizing you're my second recording and I'm realizing already that I think the unfortunate theme of this podcast is just going to be shame is bullshit, right? And there's so much shame entrenched in money and personal finance. I spoke to Jane Marie, who's the host of the dream, which is the podcast all about MLMs. Okay.

And so your, your, your take on the fact that you felt like, okay, he's going to pay me. He's going to pay me. He's going to pay me. And like you held out.

Yes. We, we saw a similar thread talking about MLMs of people get in and they immediately realize like, or, you know, they realize over time, Oh,

this is, this is this is a shit show yeah i'm not going to make the money that was promised me it is a scam right but they stay in it because they don't want to admit to themselves that they made the wrong decision and they feel shame and failure and then they also don't want to talk about it so all of these other people end up joining mlm because, we feel so much personal shame and personal failure that we get. We won't remove ourselves from the situation. We won't get honest with ourselves and we also won't tell other people. Because of that shame.

Right. And I don't blame anybody for it. It's just, it's just, yeah. It's the cycle because shame loves when you are by yourself. Shame is like, yes, that's me and you, girl. I love saying shame lives in shadow.

Shame lives in. Shame lives in silence. Silence is like, oh, you keep it a secret? Good. And so it wasn't until, because I have a personal coach. Her name is Dr. Green. She's a therapist. And I was asking her like, why?

Like, you know, what is it about? Because I was working through some shame that was holding on to. She said, here's the thing. Shame is a liar. So that's what makes it so dangerous. Shame doesn't say you made a mistake. Shame says you are a mistake. And so I was like, ooh, exactly. I was like, girl, you're worth your money. And then she said something that was so bad. You're like, embroider it on a pillow. And then she said shame also, like she said, the only antidote to shame is voice. Yes.

And I was like, oh. She said, when you give voice to the thing, it literally instantly, shame is gone. So when my best friend, Linda, was like, girl, tell me what's going on. And I broke her down into tears. And I told her, I instantly gave voice to my shame and diminished its power. And when I said it again, diminished some more. And I said it again and again and again. And as I started to help other people with their stuff, giving them permission to hand over that shame to me via voice, people like, so really that's what I'm on a mission to do like share it share it share it so we can get to the solutions because shame also shields solutions and i realized like that um the thing

that i love doing the most teaching i could bring that into this arena because so many people especially women especially women of color were needing this information and so like that's that's how the budget needs to turn from what was going to be, you know, a nonprofit, me just going into the schools and like, you know, volunteering my time into this business. Cause one, I didn't have any money coming in. And my best friend was like, girl, why don't you make this into a business? You're helping everybody with their budget anyway. And I was like, can you do that? And so, um, and it took even some like, um, finagling, cause I felt bad about, do I charge people who need help?

So I navigated that space, but also too, I wanted to give women a place to voice their shame so we can get to the financial solutions needed. Because this is the black and brown communities. And I'll speak specifically of black communities because I am myself an African-American. I'm black. I'll speak specifically of black communities because I, myself, an African-American, I'm black. This is financial education is rarely taught and often whether through benign neglect or on purpose hidden from this community. You know, like people will come in to our black churches. You know, we talked about D.R. period and basically tell you, you ain't ish and thank you for your money honey and i'm just like i literally would like i was on me and mandy we had like this whole

episode where we talked about why why do you let people talk too crazy you let this person come into your church to tell you look at you you're so terrible terrible. And take your money while he makes $400 million a year and tells you how dare you get a stimulus check. And I'm just like- He profits off of your self-hatred. He makes you hate yourself and then sells his products as a solution. I call him the diet pill of personal fame.

He tells you you're fat. He tells you you need to lose weight. And then he goes, oh, here's this magic diet pill that I make a bunch of money off of. It is egregious at best. And honestly, it's evil at worst, you know, because there are people who really need help and you can tell. And so I think it's important. This is what I love that we are the new face of financial education, the new face of financial education. It's women, people of color, LGBTQ, QI, plus, right?

QIA plus, yeah. Yeah. Right. This is the new face of financial education because people deserve to see themselves in other people. They deserve to say, oh my gosh, Tori's like me. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Oh my gosh. Tiffany's like me. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Plus too, I don't believe in the financial guru bullshit. I always say like, I'm more your financial girlfriend than your financial guru. Because if you make someone your guru and they are really good at one thing, but they're not so great at the others, you follow them in all things, then you don't learn how to discern when it comes to, is this good financial advice?

I want you to have a collection of people that you lean into, that you listen to. And I think that that is one of the ways to close the racial wealth gap is, one, it's through education. You know, like knowledge is critical. My three components are knowledge, access, and community. Knowledge, because when you know better, you do better. That's why I wrote, I'm just a little plug, shame us all. My answer. That's why I wrote, da-da-da-da.

Get good with money. Get good with money. By the time this comes out, it will be on shelves. Yes. But so knowledge, because I truly believe if you give people access to knowledge, they can change their lives, right? Then access, This part is critically important. Access comes to people. There are literally some doors. There is no doorknob on the outside. Someone on the inside has to pull you in. How could I know how to invest? Just like I can't spontaneously learn that someone who's an insider who knows this has to pull me in. Someone who's an insider who knows this has to pull me in.

This is why I partner with people. This is why I'm on podcasts like yours, Tori, that like, it's important that you have to, you have to connect with people who know to pull you into spaces that you normally would not have access to. And last but not least, but super important, community. I find that we work best, especially women in community, you know, because like women are like, so what did you learn? Well, this is what I did. Well, what about you? Oh, this is what I did. I mean, we swap everything from how to raise babies, how to do hair, what to wear. Now let's talk about money the same way, but that's only part of what's going to help close the racial wealth gap.

Cause there are other components. We're not paid equitably, you know, at work, you know, so there's something there has to change. So equal pay then, it will be coming up. And so we find that women are paid less than men. We know that. But sometimes they don't dig through the stats deeper. It's not just women are paid less than men. Black women are paid even less.

Latina women are paid even less. Native women are paid even less. It's worse than what the initial women are paid less than. Native women are paid even less. It's worse than what the initial women are paid less than men. No, let's really dig deep. So you're paid less. It's $0.78 to a man's dollar on average, but then it's even less for every single- Everybody else. It's so much worse than the $0.82 number that gets pushed. And then, so you're like, okay, so one, I make less. Okay,

great. Right. And then on top of that, the things that you own are devalued. I'll give you an example. There is a appraisal crisis that has been here for so long. I wanted to talk to you about that. Talk to us all about that, please. So I'll give you an example. So my house was, I bought this house, it was foreclosure. I bought it for 180, renovated it fully, moved in five months within moving in. It was right during, right when pandemic hit. We had only lived here five months. When I talk about renovated it fully, I'm talking about every hinge is new.

Like we did floors, opened up the ceilings and gutted it, right? It's a beautiful 1920s house. We kept all the original features. Oh, yay. I love older homes. So I just was like, okay. So we put in all this work into this house. We'd the original features oh yeah i love older homes so i just was like okay so we put in all this work into this house we'd only appear five months meaning it's a brand new

house basically so i told my husband you know the house is paid off you know the market is looking a little bit like you know crazy there's going to be a dip what if we pulled out some equity from the house and invested it you know even though we don't because we don't currently have a mortgage and he's like okay let's do it. Spoke with our financial, our certified financial planner, Anjali. She was like, okay, let's do it. So I forgot then when you go through an appraisal, like when you're, when you're doing what's called a cash out refi that you have to, it's almost like buying the house again, you have to have the house appraised and my stomach sunk as a person of color because I already knew the stats and how our houses are appraised, like stomach sunk as a person of color because I already knew the stats and how

our houses are appraised, like sometimes up to 30% less on average than homes not owned by black and brown people. And I was like, oh man. Is your husband black as well? Yes. And so I thought to myself, damn. Cause my, my idea was always, okay. My, one of my really great friends, Catherine, she's white. If I ever have to, and I always used to tease her like Catherine Catherine I ever have to sell my house you know you're gonna be here right and she's like girl I got you but then I was like it was literally quarantined the beginning and I remember being like ah Catherine can't be me I was like you know what I took all the black all of our pictures off the wall you know I turned everything around I took all of our art down but at the end of the day you see this face i mean there's no denying it the the guys came in he was really nice oh beautiful house oh my gosh

i could tell you guys put so much into the renovation i said yep we've only been here lived here for five months you know it was a seven month renovation all new plumbing all new electric because you know these houses in 1920 they didn't have any updates right totally um um insulated the place i mean everything is new so he commented on in in this conversation what code switching are you doing just to have this conversation no we're just like honestly I'm just like because I'm trying to like set it up like this is a new house all the things you know like so the code switching probably would be that I turned around my pictures even though I'm like right because I thought to myself, maybe he's not the one that actually decides at the end of the day. So I knew that they were

going to take pictures of the home. So I thought, well, maybe the person who looks at the pictures, if they don't see black faces in the pictures, maybe they can be fooled into thinking that maybe this is, can you imagine? And so like, and then I can't, I can't, I can't imagine. Yeah. And so he came in super nice, new came back. The number came back low. And I said, cause I can't, I can't imagine. Yeah. And so he came in super nice, new, came back, the number came back low. And I said, cause I, this is what it is to be black. You think to yourself, am I making this a race thing where it's not a race thing, Tiffany? Maybe it's not, maybe it's not. Cause you're like, wait, even though like internally, I'm like, I know this house is

worth more than this, but are you making me think? No, no, no. So I asked a friend of mine who was a realtor to do an assessment. And she was like, well, honestly, Tiffany, the house would be worth about $30,000 or $40,000 more than what he said. She's like, and if I do the comps in the area and things like that. And I was just like, well, maybe because she's my friend, she's saying it. And so I'd mentioned it on social. And then the New York Times reached out to me. They were doing an article about appraisals. Look at that.

And so I didn't end up making the article, but the gift that they gave me, she said, can we see your appraisal? We want an independent appraiser to appraise it. I was like, yes, finally, I know. I was like, yes. New York Times coming through. I know, like I said, I didn't make the article.

Happy to be a subscriber. I didn't make the article because there are people who had way more egregious, you know, happenings, but still at least. So the independent appraiser came back and was like, two things that stood out to him, two, this can't be possibly an accident things that stood out to him. He said, one, I thought you said your house was newly renovated. I said, yeah, like it's not even five months old. And he was like the comparables that he's chosen. None of these homes are renovated. That's a huge difference. So if you guys don't understand a comparable means that

the other house has to be similar to yours. That's how they decide. If my house is five bedrooms, three full baths, you can't compare it to a one bedroom one one bath house it's not you can't they don't compare so they compared old run-down houses to my new house on the inside so like that that's intentional that's not accidental and the one that's even more egregious this is the one that made me like honestly like like clutch my pearls and so houses get letters like C1, C2, C3, I believe it is. It's C1, C2, or H1, H2, H3. It's one of those letters. And one of them represents like, it's the level of wear and tear on your house. He gave us a level three, meaning that this house has been through a lot of wear and tear. When we had just renovated and just moved in within five months, that's a lie.

Even he said, wow, I can tell you guys just moved in. I can tell it's just been renovated and just moved in within five months. That's a lie. Even he said, wow, I can tell you guys just moved in. I can tell it's just been renovated. There's literally one of the, one of the like C2 is newly renovated home. So he chose on purpose to, to, to, to label our home in a way that said that this house has not been renovated. As a matter of fact, it has wear and tear when there is no such thing. So there's no accident to that. And I just remember being so disgusted. I honestly didn't know, like I had Googled,

like, what do you do? There's not much to do. So I just took, I said, you know, I'm not going to go through the process of pulling money out. We decided not to do that. And I remember like- Which has financial consequences for you.

For me. Because you could be making- Yep. That money, maybe we would have pulled out two hundred thousand dollars from the house and that money by now we've all seen in the market has rebounded like 60 percent imagine that could have been an extra 120 000 for my husband and i you know and i just was like so i i posted it on social and a friend of mine so i wrote this law called the budget needs the law. It went into effect. Well,

I wrote a bill with a friend of mine that turned into the budget needs the law. Either on, on podcast or later, that is a goal of mine. Okay. Financial literacy. And we,

I want to chat with you. Please explain what it is because it's, it's one of my favorite parts of your story. It makes financial education mandatory for middle school students in New Jersey. The original like right now was for elementary and middle school but they pushed back it was like oh those kids are too young and because new jersey already has a long high school i know but we're going back for elementary now that the middle school is like doing well so angela b mcknight assemblywoman and angela b mcknight called me and she was like i saw your post about your house i'm

so sorry i said yeah i was like what can i do it's not like i can write a law she's like we can i was like wait what jake tiffany hello we did the budget what do you mean i was like wait angela we can write a law so now there is a bill that's been proposed, making it illegal. Yes. In the state of New Jersey, because that's where we are, um, to make it illegal to, um, assess or praise someone's house based upon their race, their gender, um, and their religion. And, um, because I told her it's not just that, you know, so, cause I told her I want in this bill that we're writing up that yes, it's illegal. There's clear consequences. You can that yes it's illegal there's clear consequences you can lose your license and then there's a fine but i said bigger than that i want inside the bill that it's mandatory that your realtor and the appraiser when they give you your appraisal have in there

like a checklist of what to look for so like there there's educational component and something that says to the effect of, if you think that this appraisal has been done unfairly, here is what you can do. Here is where you can call. Because I want the appraiser to be on notice. I have just handed this homeowner, like, it's almost like on a cigarette pack where it says, warning, this may cause, so I want the appraiser because I want them to be on notice. I also want the homeowner to be like wait a minute I'm looking up we're c2 this house was renovated no no no the comps because most homeowners are not are not don't fully understand it I know I didn't so I said I wanted that to be included there has to be some some educational um pamphlet or component that your realtor goes over with you and that's

inside your appraisal that the appraiser must give you as well to make sure that you can do a checklist for yourself to make sure that you have not received an unfair appraisal. And if you do, who is who you call? And this is what can happen to the appraiser if found guilty. And she was like, got you. So we wrote that bill. It's waiting to be like basically put before like committee has to be voted on like three or four different times, but how do we support it how do i'm waiting so angela it has not come before committee yet so usually they have to choose a committee like for example the budget needs the law it was the

education committee they had to say yes we're going to back it let's bring it to the house the house votes if it passes let's bring it to the senate the senate vote of the state and then if this it passes the senate then let's sit it in front of the governor and the Senate vote of the state. And then if it passes the Senate, then let's sit it in front of the governor and the governor has to give it the final go-see. So we're in the pre-stages where it's kind of like in line because, you know, there's hundreds, if not thousands of laws suggested every year. So it's kind of like in line. And she told me, you know, when it gets close to be seen by committee, you know, she's going to let me know and I'll blast on social media places where we can call and email to let them know this is a law that we want. I've also seen that our current president

has acknowledged that homes are, he's the first one to ever acknowledge because I don't think people understand it's like, oh, you know, $30,000 from Tiffany's home. No, no, no, no. 30,000 from my home, the home next door, the home next door. That is literally hundreds of millions of dollars taken from black and brown communities. That is the wealth gap. So you make less at work. And then the thing that you own, your biggest, your biggest generator of wealth, typically your home is devalued. How do you catch up in those situations? And you can't invest the money that you would have gotten through that. That's the wealth gap. Right. And so it's really disheartening. Like, so I make less.

And the thing that I own is devalued. Like, I mean, you could just see like, look what happened when when Brooklyn, it was mostly black and brown people that lived in Brooklyn. It was like, oh, this is how much things are worth. You push them out and then you you you you renovate to make it better and and not not making it so that none of the original people were there could benefit from that renovation people will always say what's so bad about gentrification don't you want their community to be better i do but the people who live better exactly but meaning like yes i would love to see a reduction in crime. I would love to see cleaner streets while I live here as well. Like you don't get to push me out and then clean it up and say, but Brooklyn is so much better. And now, so when I own Brooklyn.

And does better mean whiter? Exactly. Better whiter. Exactly. So when a black person owns this brownstone in Brooklyn, it's worth $10,000. But then when a white person owns this brownstone in Brooklyn, it's worth $3 million. Do you see how it has to be law? And no matter how much financial education you and I do, it does not supersede what happens.

There has to be that component as well. Yes, education. Yes, community. Yes, education. Yes, community. Yes, access. But there has to be law to help to change and uphold what is right and fair. To your point, there's only so much that we can do as educators to help combat systemic oppression. This starts with the system itself. It doesn't start with educators trying to work within the system. It's, it comes from legal change. Yes. So yeah, it's just, yeah, it's just, honestly, I love the work that we get to do. I mean, definitely there are days where you're like, but it's a lot. So you've answered this in, in, you know, many ways. I want to more formalize the question. How do you think that members of the Black community have to either manage their money differently or think about

money differently? So what we have to think about, you have to become more creative in the ways that you earn money, ways that race does not play a role. So there are more and more people that are getting into investing because whoever's on the other side doesn't get to see what you look like. And so I'm loving that there's a shift to learning about investing, leaning into investing. I'm talking about the market. So yes, investing in business for sure, investing in real estate for sure, but really specifically investing in the market because you get to navigate just like everyone else. Your dollar doesn't look differently out there in the market. So that is one of the

ways that you have to navigate differently. It has to be more of a priority for you than any other type of person to learn to invest because there are other aspects of your life that are devalued and you don't have a say in them. So you have to make up that value and aspects of your life where you do have a say. So that's, that's one. And two, it's really each one, teach one, that when you learn a thing, show a thing, teach a thing. The beauty about teaching is that when you teach, you learn twice, right? So even like, well, I don't even know what, do you know what a stock is? You know, tell your sister,

the fact that you know that a stock is a piece of a company. Now you have ownership in a company that's more than most. And then she might trade and be like, well, girl, that's so great because I just learned what a bond is. Okay, now what? Well, my other girlfriend knows what an ETF is and my other girlfriend knows how to open up a brokerage account. What asset allocation is. Exactly. And then in community, you trade information, you learn and you build and grow together. So you have to get more creative in how you make money. You have to learn how to invest and you can't put your head in the sand. You have to understand that, yes, the chips are stacked

against you and you're going to have to do a little side hustle here or bending this way, but it is possible. And when you get there to bring other people along, the knowledge, access, and community, that access component is you. Now, once you're in those rooms, you need to open the door and put your foot in the door so more people can come in and join you. So it really has to be like a group effort. And I'm seeing it more and more. I've never, ever, ever in my 10 years of teaching financial education, seen more black and brown people talk about investing now more than ever before. Sometimes it's a little worrisome because certainly the conversation, some of them, you know, it's, they're, they're taking more risk on than they ought to, but at least the conversation is being had. It's being had. And so certainly there'll be correction along the way, but people didn't want to talk about that before. I saw a stat on Dr. Hans. He's the real estate investor. No, I forget what his name is. The investing tutor. Investing tutor. He's great. And I was like, oh man, he said only 3% of black women own stocks. And I was like, wow,

3%, you know? I didn't know it was that tiny. And I said, so imagine if you just push that to 10%, how that could change the wealth gap. I read somewhere, which is so disheartening. And you don't have to buy individual stocks, right? There's ETFs or- Yes, you can, yeah, because I'm really not an individual stock girl like for me either you know like my sister she actually loves it she loves to do the research she loves I mean she bought Tesla when it was $30 okay she yeah she's an engineer and she loves she's doing all right now yes I remember she told me she was like oh my gosh is this new car company I'm so excited because like I said she's an engineer it's called Tesla I'm like like what flesla she's like tesla i'm gonna buy um two thousand

two thousand dollars worth of shit you should jump in i was like and then when it got to a hundred dollars she's like you know i you know i made three times my money to jump in i was like no now i'm like so i just bought my first individual stock last month. I saw, I love it that you bought from Bumble. Yep. I was like, all right. Cause I only wanted to specifically invest in companies that I was like, yes, I love that to succeed. So, and so, but she, she honestly, she told, she sold Tesla some, some time ago, but, um, but, but still I, you know, I want that stat to change because it's that they, they share about my community is that by 2050, it's going to be bankrupt. The black community will be bankrupt. And I just hate seeing stats like that because I feel like they only share those negative stats about black and brown

communities when it comes to finance, you know, when it comes to anything, you know, that like, and so I'm just like, you know, cause I I'm, there's a, um, Sandy Smith has this like great organization called elevate and we have a, um, um, we have a Facebook group, um, filled with basically other, you know, black and Brown, um, Asian. And, um, and we are always talking about like, what can we do to make that stat a lie? You know we work together? What does your audience need? I love partnering. I'm always having different people speak to my audience because I want them, one, I want to model good behavior that I am not the rooter and the tutor. I need you to understand that there are other people who know more than me in specific subject matters and that you should

listen some to me, some to that. So that way, even if I get it wrong, you can discern and say, no, not that. Because also too, what if I'm not here? If I'm the only person you listen to and then I retire, then what happens? And so, yeah, I think that's what it's going to take. I think it's going to take knowledge. It's going to take access and it's going to take community. But I'm excited for it. I don't feel helpless or hopeless about it. I see change is coming and shift is coming and people are waking up. And that's why you see such an attack on these communities because there's a fear that like, wait, these folks who we have counted on them staying ignorant are no longer doing so. So now what? Yeah. So I was at a conference a couple of years ago and there was this whole activity with the Center for Financial Services, which I think has a different name now. They're a nonprofit about

financial literacy and education, but it was basically for an hour, you worked as a team. And it was like you were going on your lunch break. And you had to go and try to cash a check being unbanked. You had to try to get one of those prepaid debit cards. You had to inquire about what a payday loan would cost. And as someone, again, who grew up with a financial education, I had never set foot in like a money tree or a payday loan place. I had never considered where I would cash a check if I didn't have a bank account. I had never considered going and getting a debit card because I, or a prepaid debit card because I didn't have access to a debit card through a bank or to a credit card. And the more research I started

doing around under or unbanked people, the more, of course, I realized that it's a significant number of black and brown people who are disenfranchised and disadvantaged when it comes to being on or underbanked. So when I was doing research for this episode, it's 30% of black communities are either under or unbanked. Yep. Why do you think that is? Because there's not access. So I taught in Newark, New Jersey, which is by and large,

Latino and black folks, mostly black. And the neighborhood where I taught was struggling financially. And there were very few resources there. I mean, there were a ton of corner stores with ATMs with high fees. There were a ton of, you know, they didn't even have like fresh fruit available. Like literally most people were getting, if you had to get fruits and vegetables, you would get it from the local like bodega, which that's not fresh fruit and vegetables. Kids would come in eating honey buns. I remember one mother, she was 19 and she had her daughter, Maya. And I was like, girl, you cannot give Maya honey bun first thing in the morning. She's going to be jumping off the wall. She's like, it's honey. Because she's like, there was

not, there was no access to how do I, in her mind, she really thought of all the things I can give my daughter, a honey bun. If there's honey here and I've heard that honey is good. And I remember being like, oh man. And so there is a, there is, it's a, it's a resource desert, you know, in many of these neighborhoods. And so how do you get access to without having to take a bus an hour or so away? You know, how, how I know so many people, I remember when it came time to, when refund checks came or your tax refund came, people would go to the cash. I used to literally tell the parents, like, do not go to check cashing. You know, you have a $5,000 refund check and you're going to lose hundreds of dollars. You should just open up a bank account. Well, there's no banks around here. And I just would think to myself, wow, it was just, it was a lack of access, you know? And it's just, so when I first started- Well, and the trust of banks and the financial institutions as well. Yeah, that too. Honestly, to black. And also, too, it was just a lack of access and lack of education being taught.

Like, well, this is how you do. So one of the things when I first started the budget, he said I was doing the volunteer work. I partnered with this nonprofit. I used to go to every single project building and I've been to every single one in Newark. I used to go to every single project building and I've been to every single one in Newark and at least two or three times in the community room, we would have all this food and people come in and I would teach basic financial education just to interject. And I mean, people would be like, really? What? I'm like, yes. If you put your money in the bank, they're not going to take, you know, two, $300 to

deposit your, or to get your, your refund check. Like, oh, I didn't know. And so it just, it like, no, you're not born just knowing money. Someone has to tell you. And so that's really what it's going to take. But we think we should be, which is the crazy part. We don't pop out of the womb, like, you know, fluent in French and knowing how to play the cello. And yet for some reason we expect ourselves to know how to do personal finance. Right. Like I always think like, uh, like, you know, if you were to fall and break your leg right now, you wouldn't be like, Oh man, dang, how come I don't know how to set my own bone? Something must be wrong with me.

You wouldn't be mad at yourself. You'd like, well, I didn't go to medical school. Why would I know that? But when it comes to money, you're like, wow, how come I don't know how to invest in trade and in budget and save and fix my credit? Well, it's the same. If you didn't receive education in it, you wouldn't know. Well, of course you don't. And that's okay. But that's why it's important for the face of financial education to change.

I'm actually ashamed to say, but at first, when I wrote Get Good With Money, I remember Penguin and my agent wanted me to be on the cover. And I didn't want to be on the cover. I was like, no one's going to. Of your own book. Yes. And you know why? Well, I'll tell you why. Because I said, if it's going to sit on the shelves in Barnes and Nobles, people are going to look and see a Black woman on the cover of a finance book and say, I'm not getting it.

And I was, you know what I mean? Like, I really thought, and I was like, I really fought for it. I was like, no, no, maybe we'll just put some grass on the cover. No, no. And they were like tipping. I literally have tears in my eyes.

No woman should feel that way. No woman should get a fucking book deal and then think to themselves, if I, I'm literally crying. No one should think that, no one should have to think that way. That if I put my face on the cover of my book that I worked so hard to write and to get a book deal for, that people will be less likely to buy it if my face is on it because of my race.

And because I've seen in the finance community, I've literally seen when I've gone to that conference that we shall not name. And I remember at the time I had done this online challenge called the Live Richer Challenge and I'd signed up like 2,500 women and I was super excited. And a friend of mine, I can't remember who, I don't know if it was Stephanie, somebody, but she was white. And she had like her, maybe I signed up 10,000 women by then. And her size was like 1,500 2,000 and I was sharing with her like excited like oh my god I got 10,000 women signed up for the challenge and she was like Tiffany okay she had gotten all these brand deals and she was like we're going to the conference I'm going to introduce you to all those people so excited I was like because

she was like it's probably Steph O'Connell yeah you know I'm almost positive it was her and so I was like okay she's supporting it sounds like Steph yeah and so I made this um this like media kit and I asked the women who were some of the women who did the challenge to send me their picture so all you see this beautiful array of different shades of brown faces faces on the on the front of the kit it says live richer challenge and like media kit And so she took me to table, table. Hi, Jonathan. This is my friend, Tiffany. She's awesome. She's about to need stuff.

You know how like I've got 2,500 followers. Tiffany has 10,000 people that side of her talent. And they were like, I still know 10,000 people. I give the media kit with brown faces and I see the light go down. Oh, are these the people who are in it? Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, you know, we'll take a look.

And I was like okay one one brand two brands three by four and i remember thinking like like what you know what i mean like it was so disheartening that like you don't want to help black and brown women honestly the the reason why i started budget needs to really it went so hard was out of defiance because i was like oh i'm gonna show you right i'm gonna show you and now that we're out here rocking a million women strong those very same brands kiss my ass every single day hey tiffy love oh i bet you would love to we're busy right now you know like i partner very very infrequently you're not gonna see my page with a whole bunch of uh spokesperson i don't need it we're good i've told banks time and time again some of the biggest and the baddest banks who you know wanted to spend plenty money

and i was like yeah i don't like the way you treat my community oh what's it nope well we you know we can pay you there's no amount of money you're like i remember i told one bank in particular i said what are you gonna pay me ten thousand dollars we made that today you'll pay 50 we made that this week yeah you'll pay a hundred thousand we made that this month a, we made that today. You're going to pay $50,000, we made that this week. You're going to pay $100,000, we made that this month. A million, we made that this year. Like there's literally nothing that you can pay me. I'm in service to my audience. And sacrifice the trust of your community. Exactly.

But I wanted to show them that like, I purposefully made it that I have created a business that's in service to my community. And that's all I have to be, that's all I have to honor. That like, I make my money by making sure I treat my community, right. Why would I step outside of that for you? You know, like, cause he who pays the Piper determines the tune. So all of my money came from outside sources. That's the Piper. They pay me. I'd be the Piper. Then I would have to be like, Ooh, in order for me to make money, I have to make sure the brands like me, but because my money comes directly from my audience, they're the only ones

I ever have to concern myself with. They're the only ones. One bank told me like, wouldn't your audience, like, you know, they would be so impressed if you partnered with, with us. I said, no, my audience would be, you should be impressed. That's exactly what I said. My audience would be impressed that you got to partner with me. It's the opposite. And I turn them now. Yeah. You know, and so, yeah. So it's just, I love to see the direction that things are going in. You know, like I said, I'm proud of my new book, Get Good With Money. I wanted to write a guide specifically for women to help them along the path to what I call financial wholeness. Because I feel like financial freedom has kind of been a lie that's been sold, especially to black and brown communities. And I believe in a more holistic- Feels like the American dream. It feels like the American dream rebranded.

Yes. And it's bullshit. The average person is not going to have a lump sum of money that you no longer have to work anymore. Now, some people will, but the teacher in me doesn't teach to some people. I'm here to teach that all people can have access to financial wholeness, people. I'm here to teach that all people can have access to financial wholeness, which is really these 10 components that build your financial foundation. If you can do that, then you can build upon those 10 components, these 10 financial wholeness components. You can build whatever you want on there. Even though I no longer teach preschool, I still am the teacher of the fundamentals of your life, whether it's ABCs, one, two, threes, or budget credit debt of your personal financial life. So it's been a long journey and an awesome one. And I can't wait to

see what the next 10 years looks like. So, I mean, in this conversation, it's very easy for us to talk a lot about Black trauma and so much of the public narrative focuses on Black trauma. Can we just talk about Black joy? What do you love about being Black? How can we support your joy in being a woman of color? Someone told me, what's my favorite part about being a Black woman? And I said, hands down, other Black women. We have like this, like I could be walking down the street and a Black woman was like, girl, your hair is beautiful.

No, girl, your eyes are beautiful. No, girl, your eyes are beautiful. No, sis, this lipstick, it is like this love fest with black women and the way we're so overly protective of each other. If I'm out and I see another woman, especially a black woman in particular, she might seem to be in trouble. You should see the flock of people. We don't have to know you. The flock of people that come to your aid because we know the danger is greater for you. My favorite part about being a Black woman is other Black women. I have four sisters and they are amazing. My sister-in-love, instead of my sister-in-law, I love her. She is amazing. My mom is this amazing woman as well it's like it's it is i'm married to an amazing uh black man who

who supports me he's an amazing father he is kind i always tell him that like like one of the reasons why i um hired a coach because i know everybody everybody always thinks like i have my shit together all the time i'm like i don't i i sometimes like i suffer from people pleasing and that can lead to like bullying where I tend to shrink and he always tells me like you tell me who because my husband is six six I'm like no babe I need to I need to learn to do it my own he's like oh no you can do it on your own I'll just stand behind you like yeah tell him Tiffany so I just like I also love black love like my husband honestly is amazing I just I love that he said it because he was like

I'll stand behind you with my arms folded like Tiffany has something to say go ahead babe tell them how they how they're not taking advantage of you no more I'm like so that is just just an amazing you know aspect of being black I love that there we're not a monolith that there's so many ways that you can show up um I love that like when you feel seen by other sisters that like just how they make space for you for how we make space for each other because we know that oftentimes space is not made other places um honestly i love the way my skin looks like it's popping i was just on with um farnoosh the other day and you look amazing she was saying something she was like oh something something because you know tiffany you're you know cause you're younger than me. I'm like, no, I'm just the same age. And at the same time she was like, I'm 41. And we said at the same time, she was like, how are you 41 with this skin? I was like, sis, melanin.

up and shows out without, you know, you told me that this yellow is my color. I'm like, yes, I, you know, I can honestly say that despite all that comes with it, I would not choose otherwise. I wouldn't. It is a beautiful place to be and, you know, I'll take the good and it does come with some, you know, some bad, but that's just how life goes. But yeah, I honestly, I love being a black woman who is in service to other women, but especially in service to other black women. Honestly, when I go out, women come up and hug me and just start crying like black women. They're just like, I miss you so much. You know, sometimes it's just for you being visible. And sometimes because they're like, I bought a house or, you know what I mean?

Women who hit me up said I was homeless and I took one of your challenges. And I, two years later, I'm now a homeowner. And so like that right there. Aren't those the best? They're the best. I mean, it's why we do what we do. It's like, it keeps you motivated. Even if you're having a bad day, you realize that you're in it for like the, the bigger

transformation. And so, yeah yeah I know like I don't feel sorry for for black and brown people there is so much joy that that that's being had here we can acknowledge the pain and say we're going to work to make this better but best believe there is a lot of joy being had and I'm certainly enjoying my joy last question for you how can us white folks support that joy how can we show up up? What's a couple ways that are super actionable that we can make sure to show up as the best allies possible? corporate, you know, taking on people who don't look like you under your wing to say, you know, let me coach you in some of the ways of what it's going to look like for you to elevate and to take your career to the next level. So that is critically important.

Two, when Black and Brown people are not around, speaking positively of someone that you're working with, right? Like, oh my God, did you see Tiffany? She killed that presentation because your peers are more likely to listen to you. Like, you know what? She did kill that. She did. Right. So when your black and brown peers are not around, speak positively about them to normalize that. Purposely create space. So I had a friend that worked for a big, huge financial international company and her mentor was an older white man. And right before he retired, he elevated her to the next level. He created space because he had mentored her. So he was like, you're ready to have this position. And it was a huge position. So if you're in positions of power and you've cultivated relationships with folks and you see that they're more than ready, create space, you know, for, for people, not because she's Black and not

performative. Cause I've definitely had financial brands when everything was happening. When like, I remember literally I had to tell one brand that I'm not your Black Band-Aid. They were like, what? I said, I'm not your Black Band-Aid. I asked them, they said, you know, we'd love for you to do an Instagram takeover. And I was like, okay, well, how many black employees do you have? Well, yeah. How many women do you have? No black employees. No black contractors.

I said, hmm, really? Because in our little company, we've been able to manage to find 25. And you're a big company. You have not managed to find one. And they had the audacity to say oh wait we have hired black um models and actors for some of our ads I said oh so you recognize that you want to take black money but you don't want to put money in black pockets got it I'll move on they were like you want to be publicly yes supportive yes but privately no there's nothing there for you so you but making

you know doing that like if you are someone who owns a company, you know, cast a wide net for, for talent, you know, make that intentional because it is so. We're doing that right now as a company, we're trying to figure that out. How do we, how do we make sure that the women that we hire are not just all white women? So, yeah, I mean, and it's, and it's something that, that is, you know, you have to be intentional.

You have to. We're very much thinking through that as a company of like, as we grow and we need more people, how do we make sure that we're supporting and amplifying women of color first? And I'm telling you, because when you do that, I mean, studies have shown time and time again that the more diverse your work environment is, it leads to more success for your company. I'm like, everybody wins. So leaning into that. And also too, like, I mean, normalize Black people in spaces where maybe we weren't before. Like I can remember speaking for large organizations and I walked up to the mic and I saw like, it was just a room full of white faces. And I remember I was so nervous and I saw these two women in the front row. They're like, it was just a room full of white faces. And I, I remember I was so nervous and I saw these two women in the front row. They're like, she's not the speaker. Oh, she's just

checking the mic. That's what I heard her mouth. And I remember my heart sunk, you know? And so, so I would say to listen and recognize your unconscious bias. It's not to say that you're a bad person. Cause I just was telling somebody today that they had some unconscious bias. It said, no, I don't. I'm like, it's unconscious. That's why, that's why they call it unconscious bias. That's why you don't. I was like, bruh, it's here. And so, you know, it's okay to take me because I have unconscious bias.

It's okay to, you know, like, oh, I didn't think about it that way. You're right. You know? So to, to, to acknowledge that you have unconscious bias and to work to thwart that. So like, you know, you know, am I looking at, you know, get good money at Barnes and Nobles and saying, oh, no, it's not for me. Why? Why? If all the other aspects in it or something like this aligns with what I want to learn, is it because there's a black face on the cover? It's OK to acknowledge that and say, I'm going to try something different. like face on the cover it's okay to acknowledge it and say I'm going to try something different so those are some of like the clear cut ways that um that um non-black and brown people can do to create safe spaces for everyone to thrive I love it anything else you want to add anything I should

have asked but didn't um no I just would say that like I love connecting with folks I'm the budget needs to on all the social platforms we're not tiktok i understand i was gonna give it to you in a second you beat me go ahead go girl no shameless plug let's do it yes i'm not on tiktok well i am on tiktok but my 14 year old stepdaughter refuses to teach me and i'm just like i don't know with all i have going on i'm like i could teach you if you wanted but it's it's i mean i know i said that was like is that something that's what i said do i want to take that i haven't i don't think so i'm like you know so you're killing it's a huge commitment yes you are smashing it on tiktok so i was just, I don't think so. I'm like, you know, you're killing it. It's a huge commitment. Yes, you are smashing it on TikTok. So I was just like, I don't know how to do all that.

So, but yes, I am The Budgetnista on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook, on YouTube. So certainly find me there and thebudgetnista.com. Please, please, please, it's already out. Get good with money. 10 simple steps to becoming financially whole. This is the prerequisite to the rest of your financial life. It will help you to build the strongest financial foundation possible

so you can build whatever financial house that you want. It is available wherever books are sold, but certainly you can go to getgoodwithmoney.com because we highlight Black-owned businesses and small bookstores that you can purchase from so we can support them. So getgoodwithmoney.com but thank you tori honestly this has been awesome thank you y'all what a great conversation you can connect with tiffany at the budget nista and please buy her book get good with money preferably from a non-amazon bookstore it is so worth a read team and if you want information about what we discussed in this episode more information about good with money, preferably from a non-Amazon bookstore. It is so worth a read team. And if

you want information about what we discussed in this episode, more information about Tiffany or myself or this show, please check out our detailed show notes at financialfeministpodcast.com. Can't wait to see you back here next week, Financial Feminists. Talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist. Financial Feminist is produced and hosted by me, Tori Dunlap. Theme song and audio production by Jonah Cohen Sound. Administration and marketing by Olivia Colcana, Sophia Cohen, and Kristen Fields.

Research by Arielle Johnson. Promotional graphics by Mary Stratton and photography by Sarah Wolf. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, and our sponsors, go to financialfeministpodcast.com.