Financial Feminist - 48. Signs of Financial and Domestic Abuse with Jan Edgar Langbein

Episode Date: October 11, 2022

Domestic violence is an equal opportunity epidemic, and today’s guest, Jan Edgar Langbein is here to dispel the myths around domestic violence and share the common red flags in relationships and how we can help women around us who are experiencing various forms of partner violence.  If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, there is help. Please call the National Domestic Violence Hotline, available 24/7 at 800-799-7233. Learn more about our guests, read episode transcripts, get resources from the show, and more on our show notes page: https://herfirst100k.com/financial-feminist-show-notes/signs-of-financial-abuse Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, financial feminists. Hello, welcome back to the show. We're so excited to see you as always. A reminder to subscribe if you haven't already. This is the best way to make sure that you're not missing an episode. You can also leave us a review. You can check out our show notes. You can leave us a voicemail if you have a question or maybe a money win that you want to share with the potential of it being used in the show and used to spark topics of conversation for future episodes. Speaking of using your resources and using the feedback from our community, today's episode is an incredibly important one and one that has been requested quite a lot and that we have had on our to-do list for a very, very long time. We're talking about women's health all month long

here at HFK and Financial Feminist. And of course, we're not just talking about physical health, but also emotional and mental well-being as well. A heartbreaking one in three women in their lifetime will face some sort of domestic abuse. We've had so many women who've reached out and we've heard, unfortunately, countless stories of these women who wish that they knew warning signs, wish they had more resources to leave their abusive partners. We also know that in 99% of domestic violence cases or domestic abuse cases, there is a component of financial abuse. And we wanted to learn more about this epidemic, how we can help and how we can make sure that we are advocating both for ourselves and for our

friends and family. For 30 years, Jan Edgar Langbein has been an activist in efforts to end violence against women. Currently as the CEO of Genesis Women's Shelter and Support, she oversees Genesis's internal and external operations, as well as funding and community education. Recognized as a national expert on the dynamics and effects of domestic violence, Jan provides expert testimony in court cases and trains law enforcement and prosecutors to enhance their efforts to end violence against women. In partnership with the Dallas Police Department and the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Jan co-founded the annual National Conference on Crimes Against Women, which trains law enforcement, prosecutors, and advocates on the most advanced cutting-edge technologies and strategies

in the investigation of crimes against women. Jan is absolutely incredible, and in this episode, we dive into topics like how to spot financial, emotional, and physical abuse, where to find help, and how to help others in our lives experiencing forms of domestic abuse. And since financial abuse is unfortunately, again, so prevalent in domestic abuse cases, we also talk about ways in which women can prepare themselves financially against this particular form of abuse and how and why abusers use financial abuse as a tool that keeps women trapped in abusive partnerships. In case it wasn't obvious, we do discuss abuse in this episode. So if you are a survivor of abuse, please take care of yourself and know it's okay to hit pause or just skip this episode

if these topics are triggering or activating for you. And please, if you or someone you know is in an abusive situation, there is help. Please call the National Domestic Abuse Hotline at 800-799-7233. Again, 800-799-7233. We'll also post additional links to resources in our show notes.

This is one of the most incredible, important episodes we've ever done. Yes, is one of the most incredible, important episodes we've ever done. Yes, a bit of a heavier topic, but so insightful. And even as someone who knows a lot about this topic, I learned so much by talking to Jan. So please take care, make sure to listen to this episode and share it with the people who need it most. Without further ado, Jan Lingbein. So you're, are you in Texas? I am. I'm in Dallas. Okay. My, my best friend's from Houston. And so, and then, yeah, we have a bunch of people that are. Yeah. One of my daughters is in Houston. she lives in Seattle now but she was born and raised in Houston and so yeah it's been it's been wild not only the politics but like the weather and the back and forth of like the flooding and the

snow out of nowhere yeah oh it's 109 outside yeah yeah yeah and then freeze and then again I was born and raised in the Pacific Northwest and so so I have no tolerance for heat. Like none. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No one should have to. But it has nothing to do with global warming. I'm sure. Oh, definitely not. I wish there was something we could point to to explain all of that. Something like the earth is warming at an alarming rate. Crazy. Right. Right. Can you tell us a little bit about your background and what you do with your work with the Genesis Women's Shelter? Sure, sure. I would love to. I love talking about this and thank you for having me on the podcast today. So I am the CEO of Genesis Women's Shelter and Support, which basically means I'm responsible for the internal and external operations for dreaming the dream and then somehow figuring out how to raise the money and make it happen.

I've been doing this work for 31 years, which is so strange for me to hear myself say that. The agency was around maybe five to seven years before I came on. And it was a seven bedroom shelter in an old firehouse. And we had like about a $350,000 budget and we've built it to, you know, full service response with emergency shelter and transitional housing and school on site and preschool on site and legal services on site and non-residential counseling. So what went from a $350,000 budget is over 10 million now. And sometimes my board scratches their head and goes, $10 million. But I'm like, that's 10 million promises I am making to women and children who turn to us for help when they

can no longer help themselves. So I'm very proud of the team that is here that day in and day out do these miracles, being able to answer the phone and open our doors to women who may have just tipped their toe in the water for the first time, but can come in the front door and go out the back completely, completely different life. So that's a good day at the office. That was a long answer. What was your question? Who am I? Yeah. No, that's incredible. You actually just have a record now because I joke that I cry in every episode and you already got me and we're like two seconds in. It's already incredible work. I'm like, okay, I'm so excited to talk about this. So to dig into it a little bit, what are some misconceptions people have about domestic abuse and who the victims of domestic abuse are? Right. No, I think that's a great question. And it's the same kinds

of questions that I get when I'm testifying as an expert witness or, you know, at a cocktail party. It's like, I think the misconceptions are that it only happens to a certain group of people. Usually that means not anybody that looks like me. So probably uneducated, probably poor, probably minority. These are the myths that surround this. And what we know is that it is an equal opportunity epidemic. There's a myth thinking that, okay, that assault was isolated. It happened once, it'll never happen again. And that's a misconception. We know because of the studies have shown us that there's very much a cyclical behavior to an abusive partner's behavior. And

that basically that's how I can say, if he hit you once, he'll hit you again. There's also misconceptions about who he is, that again, he is probably uneducated and poor and whatever. What we know, Tori, is that this is an equal opportunity epidemic. It knows no boundaries. It happens in the most affluent parts of town and it happens in the poorest parts of town. The cycle is the same. The dynamics are the same, but there's so many misconceptions again of who it, to whom it happens and to whom it is perpetrated by. Yeah. Well, I think of like in pop culture, like I watched Big Little Lies and read the book, and it was Nicole Kidman's character, who's this affluent, older white woman being abused by her

successful, sexy husband. And that's going on for years. And not only, of course, happening to her, but her boys are watching it happen. And so. Exactly. And that cycle is continuing. We had, we were lucky enough to have Nicole Kidman as our keynote speaker for our annual luncheon last year. And we talked a lot about that film and how, you know, she wanted it to be as real as possible.

And after filming all day, she would go home and literally have bruises on her. But knowing that she got to go home to a safe house and just, it touched her so much to play that role. And maybe that's, you know, unless we really can imagine that it's us, we can't understand it. You know, another misconception that we had didn't touch on was the fact that people think, well, then just get out. Just why can't you leave? And again, it's just not that easy. It can be almost impossible. It can be actually lethal when someone tries to leave the relationship. So there's a lot of myths that surround it. But I, you know, we have to we have to bust them all, we have to, to break through all of those and, and change the change the conversation. Well, and we'll talk about this a bit later. But a lot of people ask me, like,

why do I do the work that I do? Like, why is women having money important? And just the statistic that we know that 99% of domestic violence cases have some sort of financial abuse tied to them. That is reason enough why women need money and why women need a financial foundation because they deserve to be in positions they want to be in rather than forced to be in. And to your point of like, why don't, you know, why doesn't somebody just get out? There's many reasons. But for me, I know the financial where if someone's controlling your money, if somebody is not providing you with, you know, resources, if you are completely, you know, 100% financially dependent on this person, how are you going to get your own apartment? How are you going to go?

Where are you going to sleep tonight? Where will you go tonight with your children? And these guys get really good. You can't afford a hotel room. Yep, exactly. No credit card. He wouldn't allow you a credit card. And here's the deal too. There are so many ways, again, because this is a, his behavior is a pattern of actions that are used to isolate her, that are used to intimidate or threaten his current or former partner. And by the way, I use him because that's what we see here at Genesis. Yes. I was just about to ask, because I'm assuming we're using, you know, he, him pronouns, and I am assuming that the majority of abuse happens by male identifying people toward women identifying people. Yes, that is correct. On women identifying people. That is the majority. Right. But I imagine this, this is, you know, men can be abused. Obviously, people who are non-binary can be abused. So yeah. Yep. Yep.

Men are abused by same gender partners, by women, and all of these dynamics are the same. But I wanted to clarify that because at Genesis, that's with whom we work are women who have been, had violence perpetrated against them primarily by men. So as we were discussing, domestic violence is this pattern of behaviors that are used to isolate and control, intimidate, threaten a partner or an ex-partner. And the best way to do it, there are lots of different choices of weapon. I can control you by putting you in a house and locking you in. I can control you what you say and what you wear and where you go. But the most effective, even more effective

than a lock and a key is financial control, is financial abuse. So let's look at the more affluent men. The house is in his name. The house in Aspen is in his name. The stock portfolio is in his name. And the cars are in his name. And the money that perhaps her mom sent her last Christmas that she hid in the sugar bowl in the back of the pantry, he found it and it's gone. So when someone immediately just says, why don't you just get out? I just, I just, that is such an easy question and there are no easy answers. We see so many women. In fact, our numbers really do hold true to what you said, the statistic that has come out that 99% of all our clients have experienced financial abuse as well. Right. Because it would be the escape hatch, right? And so the easiest way to make sure that they don't get out is to close the escape hatch. We've had stories from our community who have, you know, women have come to us and said,

I could not leave because, yeah, he put the money in a bank account an hour away and I couldn't travel to get the money. Or he took credit cards out in my name, but then A, didn't give me access to them and B, tanked my credit score. So I couldn't get an apartment, right? Because they're going to ask your credit score. They're going to ask. So it's all of these things compounding together. Yes. Yeah. And it's so creative how he can do that. I mean, if he sabotages her jobs, she has a very bad work history. And that's another thing that people are going to look at if you want to rent an apartment. Or he put the apartment lease in your name and then he trashed it.

And that is on your credit as well. Won't allow you to work. Or he changes passcodes on the bank account. He has no, yeah, it's just so creative, but it's so effective. So you were talking about these cycles of abuse. Let's take it back to you meet somebody for the first time and you're starting to date them. What sort of red flags do you see? What sort of patterns are you seeing that, you know, someone who's listening could potentially be like, oh, I've seen that, or I'm in that, or I know a friend who's in that? Right, right. No, that's an excellent question.

I wish there could be a database, you know, please don't date these guys and then have a running, a running list. But the here's the deal. It's so tricky, Tori. It comes on so fast and it's so charming. And it's so, he sweeps you off your feet and no one's ever told me I'm beautiful and no one has ever treated me like a queen before. But then little by little, there are signs. There are signs of control. There are signs of being very jealous. And maybe again, that's flattering, especially to our teens with whom we were, you know, I never had a boyfriend and, you know, he just wants me to be with him all the time. And I think if we were engaged, he'd know I love just him. And I mean, it just goes on and on and on. And then we get trapped in this web, this web he weaves around us.

But the symptoms can be, you know, you start to get an uh-oh feeling, but then you back off and you say, well, he's, you make excuses for it. Well, he's under a lot of pressure at work. Or, you know, I probably shouldn't have popped off like that. Or, you know, we tend, I think as women, and I know this is a generalization, to accept the blame for everything. And while he's also telling me, you are, it's your fault. I shouldn't have pushed his buttons. I shouldn't have talked to that guy after algebra class.

I shouldn't have, I should have been home when he called me or texted me or FaceTimed me. I should have been home when he called me or texted me or FaceTime me. I need to show him that I love only him and I'll give him all the passcodes to my cell phone so he can see who I talk to. And all of a sudden you look up and if you could add it all up, then it would make sense. But it's like being in a house that's on fire and you're overcome by smoke. It's not until somebody yanks you out and sits you on the curb on the other side of the street that you realize, oh my gosh, my house was burning down. And I think that that's the same in bad relationships and unhealthy relationships. They are really good at creating them to be real honest and getting someone just stuck deeper and deeper and deeper, isolating family, isolating friends, not letting her work. And it's this pattern. And

if you ever see the behavior of someone where the survivor literally did get out and he, and this is kind of rare that he lets her go and is done with her, but the next person, it's the same pattern. The way he went about it, came on strong, swept her off her feet, told her she was beautiful, bought her gifts, and then little by little, you know, entrapped her. It's almost like, you know, in research around molestation cases, it's like a grooming that happens, right? Grooming. Absolutely. That's a perfect word for that. It's a grooming. Absolutely. Now, some of us are, you know, I like to, I heard a police officer tell this story, Tori, where he said, you know, if someone wants to break into your house and they have the tools and the time and the whatever,

they can do it, right? And he said, but if he, if somebody wants to break into a house and he goes to your back door and he sees, you know, a lock and a deadbolt and a sticker for the security company, and he looks in the kitchen floor and there's a big Rottweiler sitting there, he's not going to do that. He's going to go next door where there isn't a security system and there's a crummy lock on the door. And so I think abusers can get good at recognizing who is vulnerable, more vulnerable. And what makes that vulnerability, there was never divorce in my family. There has never been divorce. And, you know, so I could have been vulnerable thinking you just don't leave a relationship.

You stick it out no matter what. You know, I'm smarter than that now, but I, you know, it could have looked like that or somebody who's never had a boyfriend or somebody who, you know, doesn't have the support system like parents and friends and family and maybe faith or whatever. But it's interesting. The thing that is the most important to you is what an abuser will use to abuse you. So let's say in my life, my children are, not let's say, they are, my children are the most important to me. I have two daughters and amazing grandchildren, flawless, amazing grandchildren, and I would not leave without them. And so that would be what my husband would come after. He would say, you're an unfit mother. He would go to court and

call me a drunk. And he would say, you know, she's not attentive. She doesn't parent well. And the fear of losing my children. Which is exactly, if we're carrying the big little lies thing through, that's exactly what happened in season two is they went to court. And he with his mother, played by Meryl Streep, like we're like she was drinking. She was I think she was taking some sort of prescription medication. Right. And it was like she's an unfit mother. And that's literally what happened if we're carrying that that pop culture reference through. No, it's absolutely what happens. And even if I do get out with my children, he'll come after them in court. He puts on a suit

and a tie like this guy did. And he gets the wonderful grandmother who, you know, will stay home and care for the boys, even though she thinks she needs to go to work, right? Yeah, it's pretty scary. It's pretty scary. So as I'm hearing you describe, you know, the sort of patterns, I am thinking to myself, well, that'll never happen to me, right? Like, I would know better. I would do better. And I think, of course, that's partially, you know, hopefully my own self-confidence and the way I've built my life. so naivete right of like I imagine somebody's listening to this episode going like okay yeah but this sounds like 1950s like oh I'm in a relationship and like I you know he's abusive and I cook for him all the time and like that's just what I do and I can't get out but I imagine of course we know that this happens all of the time in 2022 in the 21st century yes so can you give me you were talking about you know like controlling wanting access to you know the phone to location like i think about um you know is he threatened that you make money is he threatened that you have like a separate job or a separate life from him

like can you list maybe like 10 very specific examples that someone could go like, oh, okay, I've had that happen or I know that's happened to somebody? Yeah, I think the number one thing is if you are in a relationship, let's say one makes more than the other. Let's say that your partner handles all the bills and all the stuff. The big red flag is, are you afraid to ask that partner about those funds? Can you have a conversation about the relationships, finances? Can you have a conversation about how you want your money spent, how much money you make and who's going to pay what out of that? That's what

normal people do. That's a good, healthy relationship. But if you're ever afraid of talking about it, then that is a huge red flag. If you are not allowed access to those records. I mean, my husband pays all the bills at home, but I know exactly where they are. I can go through the MasterCard. I can, you know, it's there. You know the logins, you know, right. I do. I do.

Yeah. I can, you know, it's there. You know the logins, you know, right. I do, I do, yeah. You know, when, let's say though, an abuser changes those passwords and won't give you access to those or moves bank accounts. You were talking about this woman

who he moved his account to, you know, far away and she couldn't get to it. But maybe he takes the money out and you didn't know it was not there or it was spent in a different, you know was spent on something. It was my daughter's college fund. And all of a sudden it's gone to pay off some gambling debts or to start a new business or whatever. And I never knew it. And I want to talk with you and see what you think about this. I am amazed at how society can perpetuate that. So again, my husband is a

gentle guy, but I put my foot down. I mean, this is real important to me, this financial independence, even though we have a joint account and we've been able to talk about it. But I remember I had not a joint account. It was my own bank account. And he wanted to do something. He was thinking he was going to talk to me that night about maybe using it for this or that. He goes up to the bank. They give him the balance. He's not on the account. And they give him the balance.

And he said, well, I'm thinking about closing it out. And they said, well, you just need to sign right here. His name isn't on the account. Oh, my gosh. Right. I had my car in the shop last week. And my service guy, the car's in my name. You know, it's my car. Right. And the service guy, I was talking to him and he said, well, we found this other thing. You probably, it will cost

this, but you might want to go home and talk to your husband about it first. I was just like, it was probably Friday at five and I had just had it up to here with power and control. And I just said, well, why, why would I, I don't, why would I need to do that? I need to decide whether I want these breaks fixed or not. And he, boy, did he do some backtracking at that point, but society just reinforces this, this, put your little hands in your little lap and, you know, talk this over with your husband. Same thing. I have a retirement account. I mean, it happened to me the other day. I was booking an eye appointment and the person was like, do you have insurance? And I was like, yes. And they were like, do you have insurance through your husband? Which one implies that I am dating or married to a man, which, well, first

implies I'm married, period. Two implies I'm married to a man. And three, right, implies that, oh, maybe she doesn't have insurance. She only has insurance because of her partner. Because her man works. Yes. I know. I know. I know. It makes me crazy. And we are even aware of those kinds of things. Like when somebody calls in on the hotline, we don't say, you know, what's your husband's name? We just say, you know, are you safe right now? And we use very gender neutral terms. I think the interesting thing that we hear that's a very specific financial example is if you're in a heteronormative relationship and you go into like a financial advisor's office, this has happened literally. We have hundreds you go into like a financial advisor's office this has happened

literally we could we have hundreds of these stories that the financial advisor is talking directly to your male partner yeah and does not look you in the eye yep yep never looks at you never looks at you yes so we had a question later about like do you feel like having separate money is something that can prevent some of these domestic violence situations? Like, do you believe that everyone should have their own separate money? Well, I do. I feel I think everyone should. But here's the thing. It's not safe. Tori, it's not safe for people to have their sometimes for them to have their own accounts. And where are they going to get the money to start opening that account? Let's say I work. Well, more than likely, if I work, every penny of my direct

deposit goes into his bank account. I have no say about that. And it's not safe for me to demand that I have this. Now, we see the most amazing, courageous, creative women here at Genesis. And one of the things that I will see them do is start making cash purchases and keeping the change and collecting that and putting it either in a bank account. I mean, we've heard it was buried in the backyard just, and that was going to be my getaway gas money. It's unbelievable in a coffee can in the backyard. And so she'd go to the laundromat. It's so, it's so in smart, but it like, it breaks my heart because no person should have nobody should have to do that no person should live in constant fear of you know and having to have that that like

getaway plan and under the thumb of financial control um i've heard women who affluent women who have you know maybe he um gives he he likes the way she looks on his arm. And so she has a huge wardrobe budget, right? Allowance. And when she comes home. You said budget there, let's call out that, right? Is it a stipend or a budget? We see that a lot too with abuse cases is like you, even if you make your own money, you were then given an allowance. You are on a, exactly. You're given the allowance for these clothes. And a lot of times that is checked with a receipt on the way home, one Hermes scarf, $500, one blah, blah, blah. And, but here's a cool thing I've seen women do is once he's checked it

off and everything balances and you give him the change, she takes it to like Clothes Horse Anonymous, a consignment store and sells it. And that money goes in the coffee can or in the bank account, that kind of thing. But if he finds my money that my mom sent me in the sugar bowl, and I was punished for that, you can't imagine what, you know, he could inflict on me because he found a bank book or the bank happened to call, you know, in Big Little Lies, she had done everything right. She went to a lawyer. She set up an apartment.

She had a place to go that first night. And the apartment people called and just asked, you know, asked the husband a question about that. And that's what I'm talking about, that unbeknownst, these innocent bystanders are making it worse for women, making it harder for them to come out. We recommend to all of the women with whom we work that there are some things that they can do. We let them know they have the right to have their own money and their own information, including their social

security number and driver's license and birth certificate. A lot of men will say, especially for battered immigrant women, I need all those things. I'm going to put them in the safety deposit box, but she doesn't have access to that. Well, if you fear deportation and you can't get, or maybe you do have papers, he can threaten you with that. But so what we recommend is that they can take pictures of everything. Their social security number, his social security number, bank or credit cards or other financial statements, insurance coverage, because a lot of times these kids are on his health insurance and she needs that information, any passports, any visas. And then if she can take pictures of things that they own together, like if her name is on the

house or if there are cars that are in her name or in both of their names or any other valuable assets, and then store those documents in a safe place. Now that can be your own box at the bank, but of course that costs money. But I could leave them at your house. I could email them to you and you would keep them safe for me. And so those are the kinds of things that people can do to protect themselves and start building that safety plan. Because I have heard countless women, Tori, go to court. Sure, you can have the dog.

Sure, you can have that old piano your mother left you. Sure, you can even take those no-neck kids, as some people call them here in Texas, those no-neck kids. But don't you touch my money and don't you touch my guns. And that is, that is when she's in the most danger. Well, and I think even, I think one of the, one of the solutions to trying to prevent this in general is just like any woman out there who is entering any relationship, even with the nicest person in the world, like you need your own separate money. One, as your escape hatch, but two, like you want to be able to buy things that you like without

having to counsel your partner. And I want my partner to be able to buy things that like my dad has his golf money and he doesn't have to have a family conversation with my mom to go take a golf lesson. And my mom's like, I'm going to go buy scrapbooking supplies and doesn't have to counsel. And then they've decided what is the level of purchase, either monetary or big significant thing. They're not going to go buy a car without counseling the other. So they've decided that and figured that out. So even though they share almost everything, which I personally will never do, but like, I they share almost everything, they still have some separate money, both for like the fun stuff of like, I'm gonna go buy this

thing, or I'm gonna buy you a gift, and you don't know it, right? You're not going to see it on the credit card statement. And then also, if God forbid, something terrible happens, you have an out, you have some sort of money. Right. Right. No, and that even makes sense for someone like me who's been married a really long time. If I lose my husband, everything shuts down. Which, I mean, that's a different podcast episode, but the amount of people that we get who are divorced and starting over and they're like, I have no money and I don't know how any of this works because my partner just handled it, typically my husband, or husband dies. I don't know how to navigate any of this. Yeah, yeah. And it's all frozen. If you don't have your own, well, it is here in Texas. I don't know how it is up there, but it is frozen automatically. So

you need your own credit card to make funeral arrangements or whatever, but no, it's so important. And I love the fact that you're having these conversations. I don't know, you had asked me earlier and you had emailed, would this help diminish abuse if women had their own money? And I don't think so. I think it's just a choice of weapon. It helps with that safety hatch, as you called it. But some guys, it's not about money at all. They choose to abuse another way. So it's, yeah, a choice of weapon. But it is so important. If you ever want to start over, if you ever need a night at a hotel, if you ever need to get help, he burns your clothes. And so what are you going to wear? What are you going to do? He burns your clothes. I can't help but think,

unfortunately, of the shame that I would feel if I was abused. Can we talk more about that? Because we've talked, unfortunately, about shame a lot on this podcast, like shame that you don't know enough about money, shame that you haven't started soon enough. But I imagine there is so much shame for these abuse victims. Right. And they're the two crimes primarily where we continue in a hundred different ways to blame the victim is sexual assault and domestic violence. What did you have on? How much did you have to drink? The questions that are asked constantly, instead of why is he a rapist, right? Who rapes people? Who beats the mother of, you know, and one of the questions you had sent me earlier was like, okay, so what can we do about this? to have conversations just like this. We have to change the conversation from what did she do? What did she wear? Why didn't she just leave? To why did he do it? What is wrong with someone? Who decides that they have the right to do this? I heard one of my counselors speaking recently, and she was talking about what the thought process is of an abusive person. And number one is they have these

three core beliefs. Core belief is no matter what you say to me, you won't change my mind. You could change my mind on politics. We could have a chat about whatever, and I would be open to both sides, right? But there are certain core beliefs that I have that you couldn't change my mind. I believe in baby Jesus, period. You can't talk me out of it, right? But for an abusive partner, a core belief is that I have the right to what I want, when I want it, wherever I want it. And number two core belief is my partner is responsible for providing that. And the third core belief is I not only have the opportunity,

but the obligation to punish my partner if I don't have these things fulfilled. So you can talk to a guy. And that just boils down to control. That is just utter and complete control. Absolutely. Absolutely. But if you so believe that, I don't think that a session with a counselor is going

to change your mind. I don't think, hey, we'll go to our pastor and talk about this is going to change your mind. You truly, to your core, believe that you have a right. So I guess we have to start even farther back than that. And entitling, who do we entitle? Clearly we entitled producers, the head of the company, the football star, you know, and, and we have seen straight white men. Yeah. And we certainly have seen in politics that we will look the other way on so many things, dishonesty, sexual depravity. So yeah, we will look the other way for lying or sexual depravity or fraud, because someone tells us that that's what we should believe, and that they're entitled to this. Until we can change that mindset, we can do it. I swear,

Tori, we can do it. We have changed this country's mindset on smoking in public, on airplanes, in theaters. We can do it. Friends typically don't let friends drive drunk. We Uber, we taxi. Things that when I was growing up never crossed my mind, I would drive home. Seatbelts was a big thing. Seatbelts? Seatbelts, yes. And even if nobody's going to catch you, you're going to put that seatbelt on. So where are the seat belts for women? Where are the controls for controlling men? It's got to be a societal paradigm shift if we're ever going to move this. And I got to tell you, who I think is very powerful in moving that needle are other men, gentle men. Here at Genesis, we have an auxiliary group called Heroes. He respects others. And it is about 200 men who, oh my gosh, they do everything.

They come down once a week and they fix dinner for our families out on the grill and they shoot baskets with my little guys. They put tricycles together for us. They go to court and they sit on the bride's side of the courtroom. And she turns around and says, why would these men care about my life? Their literal motto is, I'm not going to do it in my house, but it's also not okay if you do it in yours and I'm going to hold you accountable. So holding another guy accountable isn't really easy. However, if one man says to another, you know what, I don't want to play golf with you. I don't like how you treat your wife, or I don't want to do a business deal with you. There was a time, Tori, when if we were at dinner and somebody used an ethics law, let's say the

N word, we would have been like horrified, but oh my gosh, I didn't say anything to that person, right? Now I go to dinner, somebody uses that, I'll be like that i i'm offended by that word and i don't think it has any place here and i don't want to have dinner with you why don't we do the same thing with battered women's jokes or sexual assault jokes those are the worst sexual assault jokes yes yes uh why why don't we stand up and say that's not funny and i have zero tolerance for that it's offensive hashtag it's well and the shitty part of it is is that coming from a woman she is difficult or being a bitch right coming from a man though coming from your your your bro your friend who's gonna call you on shit that for

whatever reason is more impactful so well they may be you know hey get over it i was just good joking but he heard you he heard you and especially if you're, hey, get over it. I was just joking. But he heard you. He heard you. And especially if you're involved in trying to make it better for somebody else, like, yeah, every week I'm down putting Legos together with my little mentee down there. It's so powerful when men are involved, whether this or human trafficking or sexual assault. Yeah. Yeah. We talked a bit about, you know, the kind of folks that this can happen to specifically, typically women. What is the difference that you see between if there is any difference, I imagine there is between the experience for white woman versus a woman of color, and then also the experience between someone who's maybe middle class, upper middle class affluent versus somebody who's low income? Yeah, I think a lot of times, Tori, the dynamics are the same. The amount of money is different, right? There's more. I heard recently that someone was saying, yeah, it's harder for a rich woman to get out because they're walking away from so much. But here's the deal. When somebody leaves, they walk away from all. So maybe your all is more than my all and my all is more than her all, but we walk away from all. So maybe your all is more than my all and my all is more than her

all, but we walk away from everything. And so to kind of say, oh, well, it would be easier for this group or that group. That's really not the case. I think more affluent people, perpetrators are better at hiding money at, they have more resources or techniques. They, you know, so I think that is difficult. But also for someone who is, let's say, lower socioeconomic, perhaps minority woman, man, she knows how to ride the bus. I don't know how to ride the bus. You know, she already knows, she already has a WIC card or food stamps or whatever you call them in your community whereas i wouldn't know where to start to go do that so sometimes which is a huge privilege because i i'm the same way i've ridden the bus before but for me if i yeah was i

to get a food stamp like i don't know how to go do that yep totally you'd learn i know you would learn if you had to you're trying to feed your kiddos, but when? Not today, the office is closed after three o'clock or not tomorrow because, you know, I have to lose a day's worth of work. I mean, it's really, really tough. But if you are already connected with a few social services, then that can give you a leg up. Although the flip side of that is you really have no resources socked away, not education, not credit history, not some of the things that would help you get away. Or I was thinking most likely, you know, the data shows if you're affluent, you're probably friends with other affluent people. So, you know, you probably would be more likely to have a support

system if you were to leave. You can go to somebody else's house and they do have a spare bedroom, you know, or spare two bedrooms, right? Versus if you are lower income, you might be in a lower income community where that's just not feasible. Okay, but you say that, but there was a woman over here, very affluent part of town right near our office, and literally everything was in his name, right? And when she was ready to go, he said, you're walking out with the clothes on your back. So she went to a friend and said, can I have first and last month's rent? And they were not able to do it. They just didn't have the means to do that. Both her kids had trust funds. And so she called her children, adult children, and said, can you help me with this first and last month's rent? And they said,

dad has already called and said, if we help you, you $1, that we will never see our trust fund. He also went to all of their affluent friends who are family lawyers and put retainers down on all of them so that she, I know I'm even shocking you, right? I have chills in the worst way. Yes. Yes. That's what I'm saying. These guys are so resourceful and creative. She couldn't get an attorney, not even her best friend in Sunday school, who's a family lawyer who she's known for 20 years because the husband has already put a retainer down on that firm and they cannot, they cannot cover her. So yeah. Yeah. Who's it harder for? I don't know. It's just different. It's just different. Yeah. Well, and I think we had a question about,

unfortunately, when abuse victims of any sort of abuse come forward, they're often not believed. So, and, you know, especially if, you know, the man, again, I keep coming back to the big little lies, but that's like the one example that's sticking out for me. I'm like, again, he's like this very handsome, very like well-liked, very well-respected person in the community. And they're like, oh, he's not an abuser. So what can we do to change that perspective? Well, a couple of things here, but you're absolutely right. She's not believed because if it happened, wouldn't she have said something earlier?

Well, no, you didn't believe me now. Why would I have brought it up earlier, right? And by the way, he seems like such a nice guy. He's the dad on the soccer field, Tori. He is the guy who's in church on Sunday morning. He is the successful business guy who's, you know, the fun guy at the office. The thing that I try to tell all clients, he has said to you, again, I use he, but you know, we've cleared that up. He has said to you, number one, no one will hear you. No one will believe you, number one, no one will hear you.

No one will believe you and no one will tell, will help you. Now, if that is just constantly, every time dinner is late, I smack you. Hey, well, don't be telling anybody because nobody's going to believe you anyway. I'm the deacon at the church. Who's going to believe you over me? You know, so nobody's going to believe you. Nobody's going to hear you. Like who's going to listen to you anyway? And certainly nobody's going to help you. So you might as well just forget it. So at Genesis, I mean, literally we say it a thousand times a day. I hear you. I believe you. And I am going to help you.

And that can be you talking to a girlfriend over a glass of wine. And I've been in this position, in this situation several times where maybe she takes off her sweater and she's got a big bruise on her arm. She wanted me to see it, right? And so when I, now, if I just ignored it, that is like, I wouldn't believe you. I don't want to know. I don't want to help. But if I can just say, are you okay? Are you safe? I want to know why you have that bruise on your arm by even asking. I believe her. I believe her. If you told me it was you, I would believe you until I find out otherwise. But I can't in a million years figure out why a

woman would lie about rape, who would lie about sexual assault, who would lie and want to go and be, well, Supreme Court justice nomination put through the ringer, right? Where the doctor, and I can't think of her name, came forward and said, you know, I was sexually assaulted. I told the world that and nobody believed me and nobody heard me. Yeah, Christine Blasey Ford. Yeah. And I think I am sitting here, you said, like, you know, if somebody is visibly affected, you know, having that conversation, what are other ways that we can help without making it worse? Because I think that's the fear is it's like, what if they come after me? What if I

put her in more danger if they discover like, how do I how do I help in a way that's not going to actually make it worse or aggravate the situation? Yeah, well, you don't do it in front of him. Like I have been in a restaurant, right, where, you know, he was barking at the wife and pointing the finger and yelling at her. And there was this little two year old baby in a high chair. And every time the baby would reach for a basket of chips on the table, he'd smack his hand. And then he would keep berating his wife and the baby would reach for one and he'd smack his hand. And I'm thinking in my head, oh my gosh, if you hit that child one more time, I'm calling the cops, right? And had I gone over there to that table and said, I don't know what your problem is, buddy, but you need to leave or whatever,

because I've just called the cops. That just makes it worse for her. Who is she? Did you say something to her? Did you tell her something? So I have been known to follow someone into the ladies' room. I did that at DFW Airport. And I said, you know, are you okay? And she was shocked and she wasn't very forthcoming. I gave her my business card with the National Domestic Violence Hotline on the back. We were going completely different directions. And when I came out, I noticed that she gave the card to the husband. And it crossed my mind, what if he comes after me? But the thing is, these are cowards, Tori. I don't want to say they would never hurt somebody else. They want their stuff. They want their property. They want their money. They want their guns. They want the house to be clean and dinner on the table. I think when someone does hold them accountable, which I did

by following her into the restroom, or a police officer holds them accountable, or a judge, or a business associate, they cower. That's been my experience. Now, I don't recommend it. I'm just nervy enough to do it. And see, that's what everybody ought to do. You know, people are saying, if you see an abandoned suitcase, see something, say something. Why would I be afraid to go in and say to the security guard at the grocery store, this guy is smacking his wife in the car. You need to dial 911 right now. Why would I be afraid to do that? Well, yeah, he may be armed. I may be in physical danger. This was actually a question I had because you said call 911. You know, we're in different communities, but there is a huge distrust, I think, everywhere for Black folks of the police.

Specifically in Seattle, I know that there, especially in the last couple of years, like there has been a huge, huge distrust of law enforcement. Right. So is that the step? And what role does law enforcement play in all of this? I think you still have to. We have worked for decades to have police help us with this issue and train them on predominant aggressor and train them on trauma-informed response. We can't do it without law enforcement. We have burned our lingerie in every state capitol in the United States and in Washington, D.C. to get these laws passed.

Somebody needs to enforce them. And yes, I understand there's distrust, and I don't want my husband to go to jail. I don't want to be the process of that. I don't want someone coming in and arresting both of us, and I sure don't want anybody's knee on my neck, you know? So I understand that, but that has to be community-wide. That has to be a systems review. And man, start letting your voice and your vote be heard. If that chief of police isn't doing the right job, go to your city council. I just don't think we give up on this. I really don't. I cannot shelter enough people if there is no one holding accountable the abuser. And it doesn't matter how many arrests are made if the DA is not prosecuting and the courts are not sentencing. It'll never end that way.

I can't have just a response to the survivor if there is not holding perpetrators accountable. It will not stop. Totally, totally. And I think there's plenty of folks, I'm not an expert on this by any means, but there's plenty of folks who are either definitely reforming, working to reform the police system and or creating social services, expanding social work, that sort of thing. So that's a police officer who, you know, is probably not trained to deal with trauma or deal with, you know, an abusive relationship or dealing, you know, counseling somebody through that doesn't have to. Right. No, you're exactly right. Like, we don't do it. But another agency here in town, once there is a conviction or probation,

they can be held accountable to go to batter's intervention and prevention. The jury's still out as far as how effective I think that is. I mean, if I steal a car, I don't get to go to counseling and talk about how it felt when I stole the car, but it's better than no accountability whatsoever. And it's that peer review. It's one guy saying, you know, man, I almost went to jail over this. And I see now it's my fault where the new guy in the room is like, oh no, she walked into my fist when I was stretching out my arms. And the other guy's like, you are so full of it. So I've been in sessions where I watch them hold each other accountable, which is effective. But yeah, we've got a lot of work to do. We've got a lot of work to do.

There's so much anger. There's so much admiration of the anger in this country, men's anger. And I heard women literally tell us during the previous presidential administration where the husband or partner raped her and said it was okay to do because the president of the United States told me I could. And again, any old excuse will do. But when you have someone that doesn't have any moral character and jokes about it, what do you what do you think that trickles down to? Right? Yep. Well, and this is the kind of stuff that when all of us were extremely worried and concerned and anxious in 2015, 2016, and everybody's like, you're overreacting. No, no, we're not overreacting.

You're not overreacting. No, you're quarantined with an abusive person. You're locked in the house with someone who is a rapist or a criminal. You know, talking about how we continue to turn that tide, if we can at least just angle it a little differently. One of the conventions that came to Dallas, Dallas is a big convention center. And one of them was this triple X porn show that filled the convention center. And we went down to city hall and said, you know, that filled the convention center. And we went down to city hall and said, you know, that's a city owned thing.

I don't want my tax dollars. I don't want my city benefiting from that. And I don't want my tax dollars going to house something like that. Anyway, they were talking about, has there ever been an assault at the convention, at these XXX conventions that go around the country? And they said, no, there's never been one. Well, of course there hasn't. You wait till you get home,

till you cash in on the ideas and the whips that you bought there, or the women in cells, like jail cells or torture devices. And yeah, I think I'm going to grab some of that. And you and I may disagree about this, because I'm very sex positive. And you might may disagree about this. But I think generally, as an industry, of course, pornography is very degrading to women. There is, you know, certain parts of that industry that I think actually do uplift women where women feel, you know, I hate the word empower, but they feel empowered versus a lot of a lot of that industry is yes, you know, degradation. I would say the majority.

I'm not talking about pleasure or things that are mutually agreed upon. I'm talking about a woman who gets locked in a cell and is whipped because he wants to do it, right? It's not that they want to do it. You know, you look at, and I don't know how much of this you'd want to use, but we've done, I have a friend who does some work with the abuse versus the BDSM community. BDSM, very safe. There are safe words.

There are contracts. There are, you know, understandings. But to come home and tie up somebody who doesn't have that understanding or here, you know, is allowed a safe word, that changes the whole ballgame. The allegations around Armie army hammer who's an actor i don't know if you know army hammers were yes right yes very involved in the bdsm community but then either ignored the safe words you know supposedly or you know did yeah pushed people too far and yeah yeah it's a slippery slope but anyway all of all of that, you know, I don't know, I feel like how do we ever change this? Well, it's these conversations that you and prosecutors. And I feel like that is a space where you constantly hear we need to all be part of the solution.

What are some ways that we can support organizations like yours? Oh, I'm so glad you asked that question, right? Genesis does not receive government funds. And so I rely, all these services I know are relying on people in communities all over the country saying what you do matters. And so I love a good credit card if people want to make a donation, if they are local, or we even have people send things, clean out your closets. I have a benefit thrift store where our clients get to go and shop for free for anything they need. We had a lady come

in the other day, Tori, straight from the hospital, only had the cotton hospital gown and a cotton blanket off the bed. That's all she had. That didn't mean she didn't come from something. That means that's all she got out with, right? And so we are able to let her, we have emergency clothing in the shelter, but then she could go down and shop for whatever she needs or wants at no cost. And we can sell an unusable thing like a man's suit, and that money goes straight back into emergency client assistance. So we encourage people to make donations to mine or local shelters, to volunteer their time and say what you do matters, to support people, to really hear when your friend comes and says,

I'm scared in my own home. I have no money. Well, of course you have money. Look at this big house you live in. That just said, I don't believe you, right? So be willing to help someone. A lot of times friends and family do get used up because sure, he sweet talks her. Sure, she may go back to him for a hundred different reasons. And a lot of times that uses up friends and family, but places like Genesis, we don't get used up. There is a National Domestic Violence Hotline, 1-800-799-SAFE that is available to anybody who wants to call and chat. They can then patch them through to a local service provider who can work with them to get on their feet again. So say you walk out without anything, my advocates,

you know what I was saying earlier about, I don't know how to ride the bus. I don't know how to get food stamps. Well, I do because I would go over here to my advocate's office and say, here, what do I do? And that's what hundreds and hundreds and thousands of clients do when they come here to Genesis. And we walk beside them taking one step at a time to help them rebuild an abuse free life. And that that my friends a good day at the office. Thank you for your time. Thank you for your work. Of course. Of course. You said Genesis, of course. Any any anything else you want to plug? Where can people find you? If you or someone you know needs help, Genesis has a 24-hour helpline and text crisis line

as well. The number is 214-946-HELP. 214-946-HELP. You can call or you can text that number. And that is answered in English and in Spanish 24 hours a day. There is always someone who will listen. Even if somebody's calling from Hohokas, New Jersey, we can listen, we can believe you, and we can refer you to help in your community as well. So

I hope we all can do what we can with what we have. And maybe we can turn the tide on this, these wars that are raged against us. We need to stand up, let our votes and our voices be heard, have zero tolerance and hold our elected officials accountable. So thank you for having me. I love chatting with you. And if you're ever in Dallas, come on down and see us. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for your work. This was fun. Thank you. Thank you for yours. And I just know this makes a difference. So I appreciate being a part of it. Thank you again to our incredible guest, Jan Langbein, not only for coming onto the show, but also for her incredible work. You can find ways to support

the organizations that she has founded or leads linked in our show notes. And again, I want to, I want to give you the domestic abuse hotline, 800-799-7233. There is help. Please know that you're not alone. And please know that you are so loved and supported. And this doesn't have to be the end for you. This isn't something that is inescapable. There is help and there is support.

So if you are experiencing this, please know that we are here to support you at HFK. And there are so many incredible organizations out there that can provide support and resources for you as always financial feminists if you enjoyed the show please share it with others especially these these episodes that you know talk about these societal issues you don't know that this might actually help somebody right when you share it these are the kind of episodes that we know end up changing people's lives. So we so appreciate your support of the show and supporting episodes like this. As always, we can't wait to see you back here. Thank you for your support and we'll talk to you soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial

Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Karina Patel, Olivia Koning, Sharice Wade, Alina Hilzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Valerie Oresko, Jack Koning, and Ana Alexandra. Research by Ariel Johnson, audio engineering by Austin Fields, promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, photography by Sarah Wolf, and theme music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, episode show notes, and our upcoming book, also titled Financial Feminist, visit herfirst100k.com.