Financial Feminist - 88. Financial Therapy with the Shrink Chicks

Episode Date: May 16, 2023

May is Mental Health Month, and if there’s one thing we’ve learned from working with people and their money (and copious amounts of research) it’s that, generally, we’re stressed the f*ck out about our finances. In this episode, we invited Emalee and Jennifer of the Shrink Chicks to join us for a conversation on mental health. Tori and the Shrink Chicks dive into topics like the lack of accessible mental health care, why we carry our money traumas from previous generations, how to talk to your partner about finances, and more. Read transcripts, learn more about our guests and sponsors, and get more resources at https://herfirst100k.com/start-here-financial-feminist-podcast Not sure where to start on your financial journey? Take our FREE money personality quiz! https://herfirst100k.com/quiz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

At the end of the day, insight is not curative. We can have insight all day long, but what we're gonna look for is insight, awareness, and action. So the insight is, oh man, I have a lot of anxiety around money. The awareness is, oh, I tell my friends I can't go out because I'm worried about spending the money,

even though I do have that money to do. And then the action is, what am I going to do about it? How am I going to expose myself to the discomfort and learn distress tolerance skills to move past that discomfort? Hi, financial feminists. Welcome back to our Mental Health Month series, where we're sitting down with different guests and advocates in the mental health or mental health adjacent space to talk about the financial implications surrounding mental health. And if you've been a listener of this podcast for a while, you know that money and mental health have

everything to do with each other, and they're inextricably linked. If you are new to the show, hi, I'm Tori. I am obviously your host, but also a money expert, a millionaire, a Timothee Chalamet-obsessed person, and also an author, a podcast host, and an entrepreneur. I run Her First 100K, which is a money and career platform for women. I believe I was put on this earth to fight for women's financial rights. And if you're wondering where to get started in your financial life, you can go to herfirst100k.com slash quiz. We'll also link it in the show notes. Herfirst100k.com slash quiz gives you a step-by-step personalized plan for wherever you are in your financial journey, and it's completely free. So if you're that person who has panic Googled how to

save money, question mark at two in the morning, you feel completely overwhelmed. We built the quiz exactly for you. We're excited to see you here and we hope you stick around. All right. One thing we want to make sure to dive into into this series is the often prohibitive cost of receiving mental health care and treatment in the first place. So to better understand the cost associated with mental health care, we sit down with the Shrink Chicks. Emily and Jennifer, aka the Shrink Chicks, are both licensed marriage and family therapists, co-owners of a private therapy practice, The Therapy Group, and co-hosts of the Shrink Chicks podcast, which they were kind enough to have me on a couple months ago. They believe in being down to earth, authentic, and transparent, which they bring into the therapy room with their clients as well as to

their podcast. Their mission is to make therapy more relatable and accessible, leaving the psychobabble bullshit behind. I love this conversation with Em and Jen. It was a bit of a two-parter. We spent a good chunk talking about the lack of accessibility to therapy, especially for the most underprivileged populations. Why so many health insurers don't cover anything related to healthcare. And then we spend the back half of the episode talking about financial anxiety, partnerships, and even the child free by choice movement. You will love Em and Jen's candidness and no BS attitudes. So let's get into it. But first, a word from our sponsors. It's like human attempts at authenticity, you know, like, where'd you get your sweater? TJ Maxx? Oh, great. Right, right, right. Why? You're in the South in my head. Is that accurate?

You know, we're not. We are in. Yeah, right. Me too. We're in Philadelphia. My dad's from like Pittsburgh area. But the irony is like we've spent only time there that I've never been to Philly. Like ever. He's never been to Philly. He grew up outside of Pittsburgh. Never been. Wait, can I ask where outside of Pittsburgh?

My husband's from Pittsburgh. He went to Carnegie Mellon. And, you know, Pittsburgh and Philly hate each other. So if you lots of people that are Philly have never been to Pittsburgh and lots of people have never been to Philadelphia. And you know that we're from Philadelphia because we curse a lot and we're kind of gross. And that's Philadelphia. He was carrying the cheese steaks around i don't know why that and i don't know the philly accent it's like jersey accent in my head i'm like ah the cheese steaks it's we say water we say water water water have a glass of water

with a d like a d e r that's taken here water water yeah that's how you can tell the difference it's very like mayor of east town like that's where like i'm 15 minutes from there right now shit yeah my dad went to penn state and then he's from a tiny little town called latrobe pennsylvania that okay yeah people would know it because arnold palmer the famous golfers from there rolling rock beer used to be made there and mr rogers is from La Trobe. So that's like the claim to fame. Like Arnold Palmer, Rolling Rock Beer, and Mr. Rogers.

Did you know one in four Pennsylvanians went to Penn State? That is not shocking to me. At all. We are. I went to Penn State. Yeah, Emily, we are. One out of three people here went to penn state and i have enough penn state sweatshirts to basically also count uh i got i got the yeah the hand-me-downs yeah we went and visited penn state i think when i was like 13 and uh my parents

are very private people i don't tell a lot of stories about them on the show uh but it was really funny because we showed up in penn state and he's like oh yeah this is our dorm where like we snuck a cat in and it puked in the like corner and we had to like you know convince the housekeeper to let us keep it like literally i have never gotten those stories since like it was never before never since it was just like this moment in time where i was like oh my dad had a normal college experience like like yeah I had no idea what a core memory to have and you were 13 when he was telling you that I mean that's cool I wish I snuck a cat in even if it puked over my dorm I know that's the move I was shocked so yeah it was very funny it was like it's very different I mean I want to talk about that all

day I'm trying to refrain from asking more about it. You're like therapy. Let's talk about your parents. I do. I have so many questions. Yeah. Yeah. Well, can we get, can we call your dad in right now? Oh my gosh.

He would hate that. But I mean, we, yeah, it was, he's like, I don't want to be on the podcast. I don't, I don't want to do it. I'm good. I'm so excited you're here. You were kind enough to have me on your show and love the experience so much that we had to invite you on. Can you tell us a bit about your background and how you got into therapy and counseling and what that all looks like for you? Yeah, Jen. Yeah, you want me to start? Okay. My name is Jennifer Chaykin. I'm

a licensed marriage and family therapist, sex therapist. The way that I got into therapy is something I always gravitated towards in terms of really wanting to understand people on a deeper level. It's always been kind of a natural thing for me. I decided to go into marketing after school, which was a horrendous idea. after school, which was a horrendous idea. Yeah. I think sometimes you have to do something that you hate in order to be pulled towards the thing that is really meant for you. So that was kind of my experience. Ended up going to Thomas Jefferson to become a marriage and family therapist and met my wonderful friend and business partner, Emily, and she could tell you a little bit about herself and then we could get into the business side of things. So my name is Emily Bailey. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist. I'm a sex therapist, a bunch of other bullshit that nobody actually

cares about. But I became a therapist in a less beautiful way than Jen, which is that I went to a lot of therapists myself and I figured I think I can do it better. And I am a bit of a spiteful lady and I like that about myself. And one of the things I found out is that I'm not for everyone, but I'm for some people. And I figured that I could be enough for the people that didn't feel like they were for everyone. And Jen and I, I walked up to Jen the first day of grad school and I said, I think you're going to be my best friend here. And I was just, I am like, I'm codependent and I have to go to Al-Anon and do lots of other things for my codependency. But I did walk right up to Jen. And two years later,

I, after months of pleading, I convinced her to start a private practice with me. And we opened up our first therapy practice in 2014. And we now have around 40 clinicians. We're in so many states that I won't bore to even talk about those. We have two amazing brick and mortar locations. And there's about 650 clients to go through the doors a week. And we figured out that what we wanted to do was we had worked at some other places. And we said that we wanted to make what we never had ourselves, which was really down to earth therapy, incredibly relatable with just true

love, but true honesty as well. And it seemed to actually work. And then in 2019, I went on a podcast and I said, I think I could do it better. And then I convinced once again, I got Jen two drinks in her and I said, we have to start a podcast. And she said, there was absolutely no way in hell I'm starting a podcast. And I okay we're gonna do that and that's when we started String Chicks and it's been an amazing ride and it's grown our it's one of the things to also talk about it's great marketing for your business people don't realize how wonderful podcasting is to use the resources that you have the amount of people that we know Jen had a meeting with someone the other day that says I pay all this money to all these marketers and all these PR firms.

And Jen was like, start a podcast. And so we found lots of ways to do it. And we've had a lot of difficult conversations around money and around relationships because not only we might be relationship experts ourselves, but it's a very different type of relationship to have a business partner. I also married, have a child, all those sort of things. But there's something incredibly unique about learning to have hard conversations with people that you love and know that you can talk through most stuff that I had avoided a lot of my life. That was like one of the

most incredible introductions ever. That was fantastic. I have the very similar personality where I just know in my gut about certain people like truly like I can read somebody and this is why dating was so difficult was it was like I could walk into the room you know on a first date and it wasn't even physical attraction I would know immediately this date will go well or this date will not like I knew immediately and it's the same thing where like many of my friends, like one of my good friends, Alexis, literally we were both speaking at a conference. We met eyes like across the room dancing to Beyonce.

And I was like, oh, she's going to be a good friend. Like we just both knew. And so I love that you like bullied her into friendship. You were like, all right. That's exactly how it happened. And you know what? I'm an introvert, you know, like I like my alone time. And so you. I'll take it. She adopted me. But I think, you know, it's, it has been such an incredible relationship that we have built since

2012 to, and, and I think, you know, one of the, the really important things that we learned in being therapists and we're systemic therapists is how transformative your relationships can be in your life. And that is something we emulate with each other. That's something we emulate with all of our clinicians. And it trickles down to the clients that they see too. We have learned that the biggest predictor of therapeutic success is the relationship that you have with your therapist. And we always talked about how, you know, when we've gone to therapy in the past, we've been with certain therapists who you're kind of hitting this clinical wall. And our question was always like, how do you build an actual relationship with that person? And so our business, The Therapy Group, has kind of created that message of like, that in order to have really good success in therapy, you need to be able to build a relationship with a real

down-to-earth person. And that's something Emily and I have talked about time and time again throughout the years, how important that was for us to not just create an authentic relationship with each other, but with our clinicians, with clients, and with everyone we meet. So we very much are the same across everything we do. And people are very surprised, I think, when that happens, that people are like, wow, I'm meeting you. and you seem to be exactly the same as you are on the podcast, as you are as a business owner, as that it kind of just spans across all areas of our lives. So that's, I think, one thing that we really connected on and has really helped us a lot in terms of building a business together. I think it's important to say there's, you know, we say this thing and everyone's had a tour. You've probably had a therapist in your life.

We're like, not the best match for me, right? Like whether you felt it by energy, whether you were a few sessions in. And one thing I want to make clear is like, we don't believe in ever talking smack another therapist, because what you have to say is this is what they're teaching in grad schools. You are literally being taught to button yourself up as much as possible. Do not bring your personality into the room. Right? And so what we do, we bring people, we have a training program as well with interns and stuff. We have to teach people to unlearn all the bullshit.

So unlearn all the stuff they taught you, which is really built in a very patriarchal way because the basis and the majority of these theories you're learning, the majority of people are older white men. And then what you know is that there's a few women that come out and they were loving and kind and held unconditional positive regard while being direct and honest with clients and those were the relationships people saw transformed i think it's also this

perspective too that like there's almost like a class or like a status differentiation of like the therapist is the one in power the client is the one who like just sits there and listens or you know versus like there's there's very little it does not feel like a like a reciprocal relationship in that way it's like it's just like this is the person who's going to tell you what to do after listening to you there's not a back and forth there's not like a mutual empathy if that makes sense. But you said you just use the exact word, which is power. There's a power difference. And there's a lot of therapists that are coming from a one-up position of I know what is right and I know what's

best for you. We really believe that every person is the expert on themselves. And I will say that there are some people that want some to come in and to talk and they want someone to tell them what to do and that's great for those people we are not for everyone that is the number one thing people should learn in this life is you are not for everyone and everyone is not for you and that is okay that's amazing have you guys watched shrinking have you heard about the show yeah of course it's so it's they're doing and they're doing an amazing job they're doing the way they're talking about um just how unbelievably difficult this is to feel like i can only stay in the room but then i'm missing half of my client's life right like what if i was to go out in the world with them what if i said fuck the rules Right. And I think that that is really cool because that's exactly what we would love to see happen with this field.

Let's stop putting all the rules on. Let's figure out how to be ethical while still being involved in a different type of way. Right. Like there's certain things that maybe we wouldn't recommend, like the client moving in with the therapist. I don't know if necessarily that would be helpful. That's not super ethical. but there are pieces of it but i love it but going to a coffee shop with them yeah going into a coffee shop and say you know making therapy more fluid in some way yeah yeah and i've i've only seen the first episode

but yeah it did seem both so like lovely and empathetic and the way he was going about it. Jason, Jason Segel's character, but also like at the same point, I was like, oh, this is like borderline unethical. I was like, oh, it's getting a little spicy. Oh, yeah. Oh, it gets worse. Oh, I. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Keep going. What I think there's also there's a funny part of it that you could sit there and be like, you know, and Jennifer had this conversation.

I've talked about it in Shriek Chicks that I was having a miscarriage. I have had multiple miscarriages. I've struggled with a lot of infertility. I started miscarrying during a session. It was a virtual session. It was over COVID. And I did nothing. I just knew it was happening. I knew this thing was going on. And I froze and I finished the session. It's like 15 minutes in. And so you go through this thing and you watch him doing the first episode where you could have someone, you know, bitching about their husband taking their phone charger and you're having this right from from statistics and studies of like mutual vulnerability. Right. Like I feel safe to be vulnerable if the other person is also safe to be vulnerable. And something that's always been like I understand it again from like an ethical from like a boundaries perspective. I totally get it. But one thing I think that's been difficult for me in therapy is it's like there's not, you know, a mutual dish, which is part of the reason I'm going to therapy is it's just like, I don't have to also like hold

space for somebody else's problems. But there is that certain level of like, oh, you know, this is this is going to be a little bit more difficult to navigate because like there isn't this mutual vulnerability. Yeah. And, you know, we all we always talk about like the isomorphic nature of the therapeutic relationship and how you can take that into other relationships in your life. And just in your example, Tori, of not having that kind of mutual space that you start to learn that, okay, I can create space for – if you're someone who's typically creating space for someone else, going into therapy and having someone else create space for you is going to feel very different and very uncomfortable. And so to be able to create that with a therapist in a space that feels really safe, you know, part of that goal is to take that relationship and be able and have that translate into other relationships in your life. And I think, you know, one of the things we always talk about too is a way to kind of combat that with your therapist is if your client's asking

you a question about yourself, a personal question, right? Like you get to decide what you do with that. You know, we were taught in grad school, if someone says, you know, if you're like, oh, I'm going on vacation, so I won't be able to see you this day. That if someone says, oh, where are you going on vacation? That your answer should be something to the effect of like well what does that mean to you it's a fucking harmless question how would you feel and so how would you feel though how I'm like getting like then like yeah it's like them probing back into well how why are you asking that and I'm like I'm because I'm being a good person who's interested in your life. Like, well, and that that is exactly the thing that we kind of battle back against that. Like, if someone asked me where I'm going on vacation, like, I'm going to tell them the answer would probably be nowhere. I need a vacation. would probably be nowhere. I need a vacation. But my house, I'm just not leaving. I am just going to take a serious nap. Yes, staycation. That's a kind of a small example of how

important we believe it is as therapists to be real human beings. That like if you ask me a question about where I'm going on vacation, like I'm going to be honest with you. Am I going to talk about like what I'm going to do on that vacation, my relationship with my husband and how like, is this helping us reconnect? Absolutely not. But I'm going to share these things with you because I'm a human being and it's okay as a therapist to be a human being and for you as the client to want your therapist to I feel like all the professors at y'all's grad school must have watched What About Bob and then based their entire... Yeah. I mean, and when we told them, I will say this, that we were in our early 20s when we

opened up our business and we got a lot of negative feedback. A lot of people directly saying to us, are you sure you're really ready for this? Do you really think you're worth it to charge that amount of money? We were charging $60. We were charging $60 a session and still, right? And it made an older generation incredibly uncomfortable and I understand why it makes a ton of sense of why we have sort of these like it feels a little bit like right now we're having these like intergenerational battles right like the boomers hate the millennials and the gen z and like all this stuff but like but like I can really understand why you might feel frustrated with that when you have felt kept in a box for your whole life.

When you have felt like there could only be, especially like with women, there could only be a certain amount of women in charge or a certain amount of women on the executive level. Like it makes sense of how you can turn on each other really, really quickly. And what we did was really uncomfortable for them. And it was really hard for us to get a bunch of negative feedback and still go with it. And it's still something you just keep doing. Because if you can learn to trust that gut and trust that instinct, the way you're talking about, Tori, you're going to feel really good about it. Totally. You mentioned when you introduced yourselves as systemic therapists. I don't know if I've heard that term. Talk about what that means.

If you think about going to therapy, that there's certain things that are maybe pathologized, like, oh, you have depression and here's your diagnosis. We like to look at everything in context. Well, when did that depression start? What was going on in your life? Did you have a death? You're looking at everything in the context that it started as opposed to this linear nature of X equals Y, right? And so we look at the big picture. We look at intergenerational stuff,

how your parents' messages, how your grandparents' messages have trickled down into the way in which you see the world, the way in which you see your relationships, and so that you can gain an understanding of how you function in the world, how you see things in the world, and you get to make choices, right? The more understanding you have around, well, I picked up these messages from this intergenerational trauma, and I'm still following through with kind of how I've learned to function in the world. Is that actually serving me? Or is it not serving me in the ways that I think that it is, right?

So we take these messages from our families, from our systems, and we bring them into our lives and believe that they are still functional for us. And so what we do is help people see kind of the larger systemic picture of how you developed into the person that you are and how that might be affecting your relationships. For me, that just feels so obvious. Like, why doesn't everybody do that? Yeah, it does feel obvious, right? But I mean, people that go in and you'll hear something you ever made with someone and you're like, man, that person needs therapy. And they start talking about going to therapy. You're like, whoa, who's their therapist, right? And there's a lot of people

that will go into therapy and they will talk about how everyone else in their life is causing them problems or everyone else in their life is the problem. Right. And so our job is sort of be like, OK, well, what's your part in it? Because that is very important to see what is my part in the office next to you but that even goes like as high as like quite intergenerational racism within the country um sexism within the country all these different things that affect literally everything we do every single day have to be taken into account for totally when we're doing research and thinking about you know this this like increased focus on mental health, which is great. We're still getting this conversation happening around accessibility, right? It's like mental health is super important, yet many insurance companies refuse to cover mental health or like are very, very limited on what they will cover. And there's some therapists, understandably so, who don't offer an insurance option. And even though it's like this talking point for politicians,

there seems to be very little resources about like how to get people help. Do you feel like that's stigma? Do you feel like that's lack of qualified clinicians? Is it something else? Like, Emily, if you want to start, like, we're kind of in this, like, mental health soup. Like, what are all the factors that are affecting this? So, one of the things is we're also throwing in mental health as the solution for everything, but it's not. It's a revolution in changing law. And so, you can go, if I am involved in a mass shooting, right? You know what I mean? Like if I am in school and someone comes in and shoots at my school, going to therapy is going to maybe help. Doing EMDR is maybe going to help, but you know what's really going to help is gun laws. And so people are

going to keep talking about mental health, but like, I got to tell you, like, I can't do shit about gun laws. I cannot do shit. Like, you know what I mean? Like I can do stuff on my little level with people in my room right here, but I can't change law. So I think that it's a huge buzzword, but nobody's actually doing anything, right? It actually would be really easy for them to, maybe not easy in this day and age, but it would be possible for legislation to put involved that insurance has to cover mental health, but also the fact that mental health clinicians are the least reimbursed for everything. You have doctors that are getting reimbursed, you know, 80%. Mental health clinicians are getting reimbursed like 30 to 50%, meaning they can't make a livable wage. There's no livable

wage with it, right? So you want somebody to come in and we're huge advocates of therapists because you want someone to come in and sit in trauma and help people all day long, but then they can't afford their rent. That is not gonna work. And so this is a larger issue that we can't deal with within the room, but it has to be dealt with through legislation. I think that there's been tons of therapists

that put out free content all the time. We have a podcast. There's a gajillion therapists on TikTok. There's a gajillion things. You know, there's also a lot of people that should not be doing those things. But hey, listen, you know, beggars can't be choosers sometimes. And so there is a ton of free stuff that is coming out there and is accessible stuff. We have a training program here.

People can be seen for low as a dollar. There are lots of therapists that are having sliding skill spots. They're doing all of these things as much as they can. And we have a greed problem in this nation, not a mental health problem when it comes to money. And that's really hard for people to see because people love, and you'll see it. I mean, you could see the discord around it online of how therapists are greedy because they're not taking insurance they're not able to truly eat and pay their rent yeah when they take insurance you have to take on it's not the problem right there is such a larger problem here and it is i i can't tell you the amount of time that there is some mass shooting and they talk about mental health that i want to scream right because yeah we have

mental health problem but we got large every nation yeah, we have mental health problems, but we got large. Every nation does. Every person has mental health and every single nation has mental illness and struggles with mental health. We're the only ones that keep having this issue. So I don't think it's the mental health. Right. Well, I mean, there's a million examples like that, right? Like sexual assault of survivors. Like maybe let's teach our typically men to stop assaulting people like let's hold men accountable for these sorts of things right let's not create a criminal justice system where it's almost impossible to get somebody prosecuted and also the trauma you have to go through to get somebody prosecuted but it's of course just like it's it's on the victim

to then navigate the trauma for the rest of their life. Yet we could do this with any example. It's all systemic issues. And like, OK. And like in the state of Pennsylvania, we have amazing victim compensation funds here, but almost nobody knows about it. So actually, the state of Pennsylvania, you can get great therapy and get victim compensation and get reimbursed for those sessions. But first of all, then you're asking people to fail at paperwork. You're asking them to then follow up. You're asking them, you know what I mean, like about how long it takes to get reimbursed for that kind of stuff, right? You're asking people

to be able to front that money. So yes, in theory, it's this great plan, but most people can't front $100 to do that. Not in this day and age. And so it does become this really... And also, you want to find someone who takes insurance. You have these amazing souls that do take insurance and are willing to be under a livable wage. How long do you think that wait list is? Wait list for a psychiatrist in our area that takes insurance right now is five months. Five months, someone told me the other day. Do you think anyone's calling because, like, you want to know what in five months? I think I might need some Lamictal. They're calling because right now I need medicine and an eval. It is a broken system. And instead of looking at the system, we look at the individual and we say, you're the broken one. Right.

And how are we going to fix you? And that's the thing that as therapists, you know, that's what we have control over. I mean, in so many ways, that's what we can help with is helping the individual manage a difficult society, a difficult world. Right. a difficult society and difficult world, right? And a lot of the things that we talk about is there are so much that is out of your control. Let's talk about the things that are in your control and the ways in which we can help you manage and cope with that and work through that. That's the nuanced part of this is it's like the cost for, we looked it up, the cost for individuals, serious mental illness for those diagnosed at age 25 bear a lifetime burden of $1.85 million in care. Like crazy. But then of

course you have therapists who are also like, this is my job. This is my job. I have to pay my rent and buy my groceries and pay for kids daycare. And like, this is my job as well. And I think we've really started to understand, especially in the past couple of years, like how necessary mental health services are, yet how burned out our therapists and providers are. Because I think any job burns you out, right? But there is a certain level, of course, whether it's, you know, you're working in healthcare, more, you know, physical healthcare, you're a nurse, right? Or it's mental healthcare where you're literally taking on people's trauma for a living. Like that's horribly difficult. Yeah. And the thing is that like most therapists who go into,

they are like bleeding hearts. They want to help as many people as they can possibly. And it's really, you know, on a human level, hard to not be able to do that for everyone and still be able to function in your own right. And so we talk about this a lot with our therapists because we talk about burnout and how they can find balance in their lives because the more that they're able to take care of themselves, the more they're going to be able to take care of others. And that is why we have an internship program too, so that we can provide more accessible therapy. But yeah, I think something that Emily said is that just the knowledge too about these

accessible therapy options is also not there. So I think spreading the word and really getting referral lists together of like, here are some more accessible options. Here's what you can do and not spend as much money. You can listen to podcasts. you can read books, you can find these resources. And usually there's amazing local resources, right? Like if you're in the Philadelphia area and you need this, please reach out to us at Contact the Therapy Group. We will help you find something that you can afford. But the reality is most local places do not have the money for mass marketing. So what you're getting access to is somewhere like BetterHelp that spends all of their money on marketing, which I guess good for them. They underplay their therapist.

But most people are going to go there because they hear the name all the time. It's easy to access. I download an app and it's within their budget. So that's what they go for. And most places in a community mental health nonprofit center, they're not advertising, right? I can't pay for a spot on a podcast. And so there is like a reality of what it is, but I do, community resources are huge.

Learn what the community resources is in your area and it can vastly improve your options. I really appreciate you saying that. We took a BetterHelp sponsorship for the first season of the show and we got a lot of responses from therapists that were like, please do not work with them anymore. And it was something I was always conflicted about because it is like, yes, I want to do right by therapists, but also many friends have used BetterHelp, and that was their most accessible option. since it has been impactful for our business in terms of like we have lost revenue but it felt like the right thing to do but it's also like it's complicated right because it was like i'm like i want to do right with therapists but also like if this resource is out there for somebody who's really really really struggling like what like yeah any there's no ethical consumption under capitalism it's basically exactly that's the answer and the other thing that people also aren't realizing is this um the fact that they're a state licensure right so the other thing is is that if i have a rural kid

in arkansas who very much needs help they're going to log on to better help because they could call us up and maybe they heard our podcast for free but i can't go see someone in arkansas because i only have a state licensure and so the state licensure system is also a broken so you're telling me that you can't virtual you can't work with me because literally i'm writing down i'm like um reach out after podcasts because need no i think we i think we have someone i know i'm pretty sure now we are we actually do okay your state but here's like an example right because i'm in washington state i'm in seattle but i'm literally like um reach out to jen and emily if that's if they help them fix me

anyway yeah great but but last time we talked to you we did it right so as now we spend a Reach out to Jen and Emily if they help them fix me. Anyway. Yeah, great. But last time we talked to you, we did it right. So as now we spend a massive amount of our time and energy getting our clinician licensed extra states, because here's an example. I'm currently in our Westchester, Pennsylvania location. I don't have a Delaware license. Delaware is seven miles away. If somebody calls me from Delaware, I can't see them. But somebody could call me in Pittsburgh, which is seven hours Delaware, I can't see them. But somebody could call me in Pittsburgh,

which is seven hours away, and I can see them. I don't know shit about resources in Pittsburgh. I know a lot about resources in Delaware. And so that's what I mean about it. So we'll have people call up and I'll be like, God, man, I'd love to take you on. We would love to help you. We'd love to, but we simply cannot because we don't have state licensure there. And that's gatekeeping of money by the states. And it's also why then we have therapists that are either giving up their licensure to become life coaches, or we have people that are saying, screw it. Why would I become a therapist? Why would I go to school? I can become a life coach for free with no ethical board. But then who's watching them and who's making sure people are having ethical responsible relationships broken system

this this podcast is really called like it's a broken system we're fucked like that's the title that's like financial feminist everything's fucked like that's the subtitle i do want to transition though into like so community resources which is amazing let's talk about like finance related anxieties we have talked a lot on the show i have an entire i've spoken about this many times we spent the entire first chapter of my book talking about the emotions and the psychology of money because really you can't learn how to pay off debt you can't learn how to navigate this until you start to understand what's going on in your brain, what's going on in your body. So we know from our research and literally I could walk out on the street right now and ask people, how do you feel about money? And they're going to say fear and shame and

anxiety and all of those things. So what are some ways we can cope with or start to work to manage financial anxiety from two very qualified licensed therapists so first you're going to buy the financial feminist and you're going to do the first chapter and then you're going to listen to this podcast so do those things and then and then and then after that you'll be like oh shit didn't solve it all because at the end of the day insight is not curative we can have insight all day long, but what we're going to look for is insight, awareness, and action. So the insight is, oh man, I have a lot of anxiety around money. The awareness is, oh, I tell my friends I can't

go out because I'm worried about spending the money, even though I do have that money to do. And then the action is, what am I going to do about it? How am I going to expose myself to the discomfort and learn distress tolerance skills to move past that discomfort? When we talk about this kind of systemic nature and the way that this gets passed down from generation to generation, you know, as we're reiterating, insight is not curative, but it can help you understand when it's coming up in the present and the ways in which it might not be helpful for you. So, for example, if your parents, grandparents experience some sort of financial trauma and the way in which maybe your parents have dealt with that financial trauma is to say, hold on to all of your money.

Don't spend any money. So if our parents have experienced some sort of financial trauma and the way in which they learn to deal with that trauma is to say, I'm going to hold on to all my money. I'm not going to spend it. I have a scarcity mindset. And you grew up hearing that in your household, right? You grew up hearing your parents talking about money in that way and you recognize that in your life as an adult that is still a message that you hold to be true i have to hold on to all my money so that i can protect myself from this intergenerational trauma that was passed down and so for you to understand that that was rooted in some family stuff that was maybe present at that time, but it's no longer present now. And the thing is we take the things that maybe were once helpful for us, or we

understood in a very specific way, and we bring them into adulthood and we keep using the same lens. And so the question is, is that lens still working for you in your relationships? And so it's something you can bring to the surface constantly to be able to say, okay, I realize I'm wanting to hold on to this money. I'm not wanting to spend any money, even though I know that I can. So you're checking yourself in the present to say, is this model of looking at money, how I feel about money, is this lens actually serving me in the present, in my relationships, and to really take inventory on that over and over and over again. Something Emily and I always talk about in our relationship because we deal with money together

is that I very much have a scarcity mindset and Emily is more of a spender. So we always have to have this conversation. We always have to talk about where did this come from for me? And is this actually serving us in our business? Because in order to grow in your business, you have to spend money. You know, you have to be able to put money out there to spend money, to make more money. And so we always have to have these conversations where we're checking ourselves and saying, are these rules that I have for myself that I learned from my family, are they still working in my relationships? If yes, then go on with your bad self. If no, you can continue to work on that over and over and over again and

recognize that the anxiety that might be coming up for you is not about present day. That is passed down intergenerational financial trauma. Well, it's a perfect transition too. We get so many voicemails from people about managing money with somebody else, typically a romantic partner, right? Like trying to figure out how to talk about money. Can we discuss some like common money miscommunications romantic partners have and then how to navigate that? Emily, if you want to go first. Avoidance. Everyone wants to avoid. So the number one, couples will come in and they'll be like, and then he spends all the money and they'll do it

like under their breath. And I'm like, ah, that means something to you, right? Like, so usually it's like this thing that we fight about over and over again that never gets resolved or we avoid it completely and I just am resentful and so you have to talk about hard things in your relationship I don't care if it's money sex in-laws those are just the three three most common ones um that everyone talks about but having say we this is about you and i together not against each other and so many people are really indoctrinated into their experience growing up that it feels like their partner is betraying them by it being different right and so jen i might not be the romantic relationship but we are so vastly different about money and we have to talk and

deal with money every single week that we have to bring to it. And it is horrible. And we didn't do a good job at the beginning of our relationship. We tried to actually make it two business entities so we could see it separately because we were so uncomfortable. And a lot of couples do that. And if that's right for you, that's great to keep it separate. Everyone gets to decide for themselves. But be aware of why you're doing it. Is it because of discomfort or is it because you want to know what, you know, double income, no kids, I'm living that dink life. I don't want to combine. That's great. That's totally fine. But what's the real reason behind it? And so you watch people truly avoid. And so one of the things that is important is to like, we got to start talking about some stuff. And one of the things

we have to talk is we have to get on the same page about money. And it is okay if we don't agree on all those things because we get to make our own together. There are certain stuff about spending that, like, I don't care about. And there's certain stuff that's really important to me. And you have to decide which to let go and which to hold on to. You can't die on every hill in your relationship. And so what's the way? Hey, it's really important for me to have this much money in a money market account. You know what I mean? Or it's okay for me to have this. And that's going through conversations that are not one-time conversations. It is conversation again and again and again and again until the day that we die or someone else takes over my money.

And something we also like to talk about is how you boundary off those conversations from the rest of your relationship, right? Because there is a natural, and no one likes to talk about this, part of your marriage is a business. conversations in your marriage, your relationship, your partnership as a business conversation so that it doesn't trickle into other parts of your relationship, right? So what happens is if we don't boundary that off, right? Because what happens, Jen, give an example of what every couple does. They'll be like in the middle of like, you know, like trying to connect with each other. And then it'll get thrown out in the middle. Or once leaving for work. That's the other thing I hear. They're leaving for work and they're like, hey, I think you maxed out our credit card and that really bothered me. And it's like, I can't talk about this right now. I can't talk about this. And then they never talk about it. And so to be able to boundary off those conversations,

we call it money dates at her first 100K, like literally setting aside designated financial self-care, whether you're single or coupled, that's like, I'm looking at my money. And then if you're managing money with a partner, it's like, okay, what are we progressing towards goals? How are we using money as a tool to build the kind of life that we want together? Yes. Yeah, exactly. And you know, it also, to be able to put that in your calendar, it also holds you accountable to have those hard conversations. Because no one wants to have those conversations. It's uncomfortable, especially if we have intergenerational financial trauma that just haunts us, right? That is going to be uncomfortable. And for you to know what you specifically do during those times, for you to know what your coping mechanism is. So for me, mine is to shut down. Mine's avoidance. I'm well aware of that. But the fact that I know that, I know that when I'm entering into a boundaried money conversation, that that's what's going to be happening to me. And I have to, because of the awareness of that, over and over and over again say, okay, I recognize I'm shutting

down. I also let my partner know that that's happening. Like, hey, I'm shutting down right now. Give me like two minutes. I just need to process this and then I can come back to the conversation. Because when you aren't aware of it and you're not communicating what's happening to you, it's going in one ear and out the other. You're not listening at all and nothing's going to happen and you start getting reactive, right? So for you to know your specific way of reacting to a financial conversation is also really important so that you can share that with your partner and that your partner can be aware of that when that's happening. Yeah. I can't say how the impact of that. In

managing everything with my now partner, it's like I am an external processor. I am telling him I'm very direct. I'm like, here's what's bothered me. Here's how it made me feel. And he is a very internal processor. And so the early days of our relationship, he would just go quiet. And I would be like hi i can't read your mind so if you're processing that's great but i need you to tell me literally i am processing right now give me a minute and i'm like great and i think he's gotten better at doing that but like in the early days it was very uncomfortable where i was just like oh so you don't care you're just what are you doing you're just you just don't care right right and right and

that's why that's why just knowing like for him to just know that's what's happening for him and a lot of us and that he needs to communicate because my anxious brain is going like he is uh leaving right now and he's never coming back and like everything is turned to shit and i'm like all right well and then i'm bailing i'm hitting the bail button really hard i'm like bail bail bail bail exactly exactly exactly and so for you for for you to know that no he actually he cares so much about this that he's shutting down he's having an emotional reaction right and he needs to take a minute and he doesn't want to say anything this he's one of the kindest people i've ever met he doesn't want to say anything. He's one of the kindest people I've ever met. He doesn't want to say anything that he doesn't actually think or that he hasn't

processed and thought about because he cares about me deeply. And so it's like he needs to second to gather his thoughts and then will give me what he's thinking. Yeah. And I think everyone has this idea, but if I make more money, I'll feel better around it. But here's a great example. My husband is an amazing man. He's a stay-at-home father and I'm the breadwinner. And I love that for me, but I'm also the person who has shame around finances because I didn't make great financial decisions in my 20s. We started this business on credit cards, which frankly worked out really well, but wouldn't be my number one recommendation if I was going to do it again. But I had a tremendous amount of shame around money because I always struggled with my

relationship with it. I was a spender. I felt like I should always have more. And so there's this feeling of like, if I'm making more than it'll fix it. And that's not true. You have to fix your relationship with money no matter how much money you are bringing in. More money helps, of course. But you can have someone who's making $500,000 a year and has less savings than somebody who's making, you know, $50,000 a year. And a lot of that has to do with what's the mindset around it. For someone who is, right, so Jen's avoidant and so hers is shut down. Someone who's shamed, theirs is often defense. So I'll go on the defense, right? Well, you can't control me and my money. I'm the one who makes it.

What? No, that's not accurate. We have a marriage. We have a relationship. We're doing this together. But my immediate is defensive nature. And when I'm defensive, what do you think that does to my partner? He's like, fuck you.

I'm defensive too. And it's like, it goes on this thing, right? So one is, what is my partner's style? What is my style? And how do I, what we call is catch the bullet. If I know that I'm going into that mode, I can see it for myself. I can feel the activation. I can usually feel tension in my hands. My chest feels a little bit tighter. I start to sweat a little bit. That's my body reaction, right? So I have to catch the bullet and say, whoa, I'm sorry. I sucked the way I just said that. That was not communicating that well to you. Let me try again. Hey, I'm feeling overwhelmed by how tight the finances

are. I want to feel like we can use it a little bit more. I want to go on vacation. I want to do this. Let's talk about doing that together. And so whatever your style is, you have to learn to catch the bullets, whether it's saying hey i can feel myself shutting down or hey i can feel the last thing i said sort of sucked and that wasn't my best relational move yeah that's so powerful to also like acknowledge and not be then ashamed that you are feeling ashamed of just being like hey that wasn't that wasn't my best moment we're gonna try that again or like i do need a Like, I need a minute. I need to take a walk around the block. Like, I want to have this conversation with you, right? I'm not bailing. Give me an hour, right? Or give me a half hour

or whatever. Yes. And the thing that we hear a lot that, you know, we're couples therapists, and we hear this in couples therapy is that partners come in and they're wanting to change their partner and the way in which their partner's reacting. And we always talk to them and say, listen, you have no control over the way that your partner is going to react to this. The only thing that you have control over is understanding yourself, your reactivity, what's going on for you and how you're communicating that to your partner and what boundaries you're setting up to. And so it's a huge mindset shift and once again kind of aligns with being a systemic therapist is knowing that if you can take responsibility for your actions and the way in which you go about these conversations, it can completely change the nature of the dynamic in and of itself so you have more control

than you think that you have and we often go into relationships thinking the way in which i'm going to gain control is try to change my partner but really it's about taking acknowledgement and being able to take responsibility for your own actions yeah and one of the things i've seen that is really helpful for people i kind of already use this language as like money is not the money doesn't have to be the barrier. It can actually be the tool to be able to, you know, afford you the life that you want. So when I do counsel couples, what I tell them is to like start with the life goal and then work backward. So if it's like, okay, we want to travel internationally together because that's important to our relationship. That's exciting, right? That's exciting to plan. It's exciting to think

about, okay, how do we use money as a tool to get there? Okay, if, you know, being a parent is really important to us, we want to have a kid in three years, how do we use money as a tool to get there? If we want to buy a house, right? You can do all of this as opposed to like money is the reason we can't. Rather, we want this thing. We want this thing together. We want to build a life together. How can money be used as a tool to be able to acquire that thing or to, you know, progress towards that. Love that.

Such a, such a, such a beautiful way of being able to look at it as opposed to like money is controlling my life to here's what we want. How do we get there together? I, Tori, I think you have a second career.

I think you should. If you ever want to become a therapist, we're hiring. Thank you. Also, oh man. That's going to send me an existential. I'm like, I don't know if I could handle. I am such like a little like feeler that anybody, anytime somebody is like, I'm not good right now.

I'm like, i'm so sorry like i could not be the like i cry that's i cry jen cries everything anything and every i probably cry once a day like truly i probably cry about something every day yeah it's either like this is the cutest puppy on tiktok that i've ever seen and he's getting adopted or it's like this mean person on the internet said that i was mean and i'm like i don't know how to cope with that like it well and you know what and we always say becoming therapist was the best, most expensive therapy that we've ever gotten in our entire lives. Because it's a quick 50 grand.

Completely changes the way in which you see the world. But I think and this is why it's clearly translating through this podcast is that you're so empathetic and feeling and that there's such a need for that as a therapist and that you can do that in a way that allows you to really empathize and be there with your clients. And so this is not a pitch to get you to be a therapist, but if you want to, come on over. I think it turned into it. But I also think what we're talking about is that there can be grace, kindness, and softness in any realm and for so long finances have been i'm scared to go to a financial planner they're going to yell at me about all the stuff

i'm doing wrong the amount of people that are scared to get help because of how they're worried about being treated right if you knew you're going to walk into a room filled with safety where a financial planner or someone's going to help you and say hey let's we're you know this might help a little bit this will alter it no you didn't fuck up your whole life right like everyone's fear is like i'm going to feel so horrible if i look at this and so what if we just stop being so horrible to each other right what if easy peasy stop being terrible to each other that's the takeaway perfect my last question jen we found some in our research about you that you're very outspoken in your desire to remain child free and i think that's something that myself, good friends of mine are going back and forth about right now.

And there's often this feeling of just not a lot of support about I mean, there's not a lot of support for women, period. Right. Like you end up realizing like you can't win no matter what you do. You want to become a mom. You can't win. You want to like be a non-compensated working mother and stay at home. You can't win. You want to not have children? Well, suddenly you're a shrew. So I feel like all of it ends up just being like, do whatever the fuck you want to do. But can you talk about your journey of being child-free and how did you manage expectations

from family and even partners around this lifestyle choice? First of all, thank you for asking. I think it's such an important topic, and I would love to talk about it. Because also, I talk a lot about this in terms of whenever you're doing something that's counterculture, you do get a lot of reactions to it. And something that I talk about a lot is that it was very much a journey in some ways to get to this point. I think that people believe that, oh, you know this for a fact and you're in that decision and it doesn't change, you don't waver, and you're 100% on it. And so for me, becoming a mother was never something that I really gravitated towards. When other people would talk about it, it was never something that felt right for me. And then I met

my husband and he was in the exact same boat. So we were very much on the same page, which I know is not always the norm and that's not always what happens in relationships. And so that is where it becomes a little bit more complicated when your partner maybe isn't in the same boat as you and it becomes more of a conversation. So I want to acknowledge that it was an easier decision for me because my partner was very much on the same track. But one of the things I really recognized is that as I got older and my friends started to have children, that is when I started to, once again, feel pretty solid in my decision because I always had a concern that when my friends start having kids that I was going to

feel left out or something was going to happen and that was going to change for me. And at that point, I would have to have a conversation with my partner about the fact that my mind was changing. And as that's happened, I've realized that, no, I just, I feel more confident and solid in my decision. So I just feel very personally, very settled in that feeling. The thing that comes up a lot is other people's reactions to that because everyone has this kind of internal model of like, here's what your life should look like. And you need to be on this very specific path. And if you're not on that path, it's going to bring up discomfort for me. And I mostly get that from kind of an older generation, right? Where people will say to me like, oh,

when are you having kids? Or like, oh, when are you guys going to start trying? Whatever it is. Or I've watched people say to you, well, why don't you just freeze your eggs just in case? Yes. Everyone says that. And by people, she means my dad. Other people have said it too, but your father also, yes. Yes. So yeah, people are always, what if you change your mind and you can't go back i get a lot of that um i am i think because i feel so settled and confident in my decision i feel very comfortable responding to those things and say listen we're not having kids it's not you know not in the cards for us not something we want i've heard that too and it just occurred to me that no one asks people with children like what if you change your mind like what am I ship I'm shipping them off somewhere someplace else

because that's honestly the amount of conversations I've had with friends where they do have children and they have been very honest which is lovely or I've had friends of friends who have told like my friends um you know I'm very very happy and I love them very much, but it wasn't the right call for me. Yeah. And I also love, you know, I think that there's a lot of vulnerability and honesty in that answer too, right? And, you know, both to become a parent is a very specific decision. And it's something that it does. It changes your life. It alters your life in a lot of ways.

And I think it's incredible. Watching my friends become mothers, watching Emily become a mother has been an incredible experience because you just see such a strength and a different part of them that is brought out from becoming a mother. And I just, I so respect, you know, people who become parents. I think it's, I think it's amazing. I also, you know, I very much from becoming a therapist and just work that I've done, I know myself and I know how important my independence is and how hard that transition would be for me if I would ever anticipate having children. And I think it's just, you know, it's a personal decision. And I think that when you're once again doing something that is different than what people expect, that you're

bound to have reactions to it. And so in terms of managing expectations, I just come out and say to family, to friends, to anyone who asks, I'm not interested in having children. Here's why. Here are all the reasons. Because I just feel so settled in that decision. I think sometimes where it becomes harder to be able to have that conversation is when you're not as settled in that decision and where you're back and forth. And that's where, because the question can bring up insecurity for you, insecurity that you're already having about the decision. Could we give everyone an activity to do? Would that be helpful? Could we give people a take home? Maybe we could tell them about parental scripting, Jen. Yes, go for it. Okay. Well, so parental scripting, we talk about this in terms of everything, sexual scripting,

everything. What is the point of why I'm doing this? If you sit down and take the space and say, why am I choosing to have a child? Because if it's I'm scared of missing out, that's not a good reason, right? To really get very serious about why we do the things that we do. And for Jen, if she was to have a child, once we like really talked through this for so many times, it would have been about other people or fears or FOMO or some stuff and so for you to sit down with yourself individually and then with your partners why would we do this because bringing children into the world is like a really big deal um and for us to understand why right for me it was that I think I could raise someone who I want in this world and I'm going to be honest I'm too worried about some of the type of people that are

having 10, 11 kids and some of their beliefs that I disagree with that I was like, I better at least get one out there. And so for me, it was about another generation. But you have to be very serious about why am I doing this thing? So it's called parental scripting. Take some time to do it for yourself. Make space for yourself and then bring it back to your partner. Do the activity separately and then together and get real about why we do the

things we do that's so helpful thank you both for sharing so tell us more about your hopes for shrink chicks and your therapy practice and where we can find you our hopes for shrink chicks you know people stop listening and then she can be less anxious. Truly, I'm telling you, I have been on this ride for a long time. But the thing the thing that I love about sharing chicks, the reason why I will continue to do it is how accessible it makes the conversation around mental health. And that is part of the reason why we keep doing it. We've been doing it since 2019 and we're going to keep on going probably until the day we die is to really destigmatize the conversation around mental health, making the conversation around mental health way more accessible. the therapy group. Once again, we have two locations, Westchester and Philadelphia, and we have a bunch of virtual locations across the US. So if you are interested to see if we do practice in your state virtually, you can feel free to reach out at thetherapygroup.com. If you're interested in listening to Shrink Chicks, you can find us on any podcast platform or you

can check us out on Instagram at shrink chicks amazing thank you both for being here and for your work and we are so thankful I speak for everybody hopefully on planet earth we are so thankful for our mental health professionals you are the reason that we're able to like stay alive and thrive and do all of the good things and so especially in the last couple years we see you for your work and we thank you for your work and appreciate you being here. Oh, thank you, Tori. We appreciate it.

Thank you so much to Em and Jen for joining us for this episode. We'll make sure to link their podcast called The Shrink Chicks in our show notes alongside links to their therapy practices and additional resources we've put together for this episode. If you love the show,

please rate, review, subscribe. And if you're listening on Spotify, you can interact with the little questions down below. If you just do a swipe up, it's going to be something like, what do you think of this episode? And we would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you for joining us, Financial Feminists. As always, thank you for supporting our movement, and we'll catch you soon. Thank you for listening to Financial Feminist, a Her First 100K podcast. Financial Feminist is hosted by me, Tori Dunlap, produced by Kristen Fields, marketing and administration by Kareena Patel, Cherise Wade, Alina Helzer, Paulina Isaac, Sophia Cohen, Khalil Demaz, Elizabeth McCumber, Beth Bowen, and Amanda LeFue. Research by Arielle Johnson, audio engineering by Austin Fields,

promotional graphics by Mary Stratton, Photography by Sarah Wolfe, and Theme Music by Jonah Cohen Sound. A huge thanks to the entire Her First 100K team and community for supporting the show. For more information about Financial Feminist, Her First 100K, our guests, and episode show notes, visit financialfeministpodcast.com or follow us on Instagram at financialfeministpodcast.