Focused - 136: Social Focus, with Taylor Jacobson

Episode Date: October 12, 2021

Taylor Jacobson joins us to talk about groundedness, vulnerability, and accountability on his journey to founding Focusmate.

Welcome to Focus, the productivity podcast about more than just cranking widgets. I'm Mike Schmitz, and I'm joined by my fellow co-host, Mr. David Sparks. Hey, David. Hey, Mike. How are you today? I'm doing great. How about you? Excellent. We've got a guest coming in today. We've got a lot to talk about, but before we do, it's that time of year to talk about the Focus calendar.

Yes, and this year we've got some upgrades to the calendar, which I'm pretty excited about. I've been working with Jesse, the person behind the New Year calendars, and he's done a great job incorporating a bunch of ideas that we've been kicking around via email. I'm really happy with the way that this calendar has turned out. So it's basically the standard new year calendar design that you're familiar with, but there are a couple of additional features added to it. So the first thing is, you know how the new year calendar has the shading for the four different quarters. It's kind of based off of that 12-week year concept. Well, now it shows you for each day square how many days are left in the current quarter. So it kind of starts counting

down from the beginning and you can kind of see whether, you know, I've got 20 days left in this quarter and the goal that I had set, maybe I'm not going to achieve that. Maybe I need to re-evaluate or I'm doing great, but you can kind of gauge your progress as you go. There's also week numbers, so you can see the week of the year. And there is a habit tracker because that's the whole idea, right? With a 12-week year, you identify the goal and then the habits that are going to help you get there. So there's four circles in the lower left of each of the boxes that you can use to kind of track your habits as you go. And then there's space at the top for whether you want to use goals for the quarter or words for the year. You can just kind of write down the big themes that are going to apply to either the quarter

for the year. I'm not sure how you do this, David. I actually just have words for the year. My words for this year, as I turn and look at my New Year calendar, are community and commitment. So I have those up at the top, and Jesse kind of built in a space for that kind of stuff. Yeah, I do it quarterly, and it's more kind of project-centered,

but it works. And that's the nice thing about this is because you can make it work for whatever you're doing. You know, we don't have specific labels on it. And I'd like to think about, you know, it's like a game of darts. And I feel like every year we've been getting closer to the bullseye. And I feel like this year we hit the bullseye because not only does it have all those features it's also now dry erase you know it was last year as well but now you can use dry erase on it so you can if things change up and now we've learned that things can change up on us it's true you can you know use dry erase and also it's two calendars in one this year on one side of the sheet it's vertical on the other side it's

horizontal i know we had a lot of people write in last year asking if we could get a horizontal version well now you just decide which side you want to use and you've got horizontal or vertical with the calendar and there's just something to be said for that wall calendar. I mean, for me, it's a real good tool to help me say no to commitments because I'm looking at the wall calendar on the wall and that makes it real for me. I'm like, okay, this is all the stuff I want to do this quarter or that's the month I'm going on two different trips. All of a sudden, it's a lot easier to say no to potential commitments so I can actually get the work done I've already promised. Absolutely. I use it the same way. I've got all of the different areas of my life that I would be doing certain big events for located in the key at the bottom. But I also want to highlight something that you mentioned, which is

just you can use this any way that you want. So it's kind of built around this 12 week year premise. But the beautiful part about this is that there's all these different things that have been added without creating a whole bunch of, I think anyways, not a whole bunch of visual clutter. And you can totally do it however you want. Like I mentioned the words for the year up at the top, you mentioned the quarterly goals, it's dry erase. You could put your quarterly goals up there. And then when the quarter goes to the next one, you erase those and you put new ones there. There's a lot of different ways that you can do it, but there's a lot of flexibility built into the calendar, which allows you to use it a lot of different ways. And I'm really happy about this one. Like you said, it's two calendars in one now where you got the landscape on one side and the portrait on the

other. And the cost is $28. So it's consistent with the rest of the dry erase calendars that are on the New Year's site. You do have to pay for shipping, I believe. Last time I checked it, it was five bucks where I was, five US dollars so that may may vary but we did our best to keep the cost down and build in all of the the stuff that that we wanted in really our ideal calendars we combined them into a single calendar the landscape and the portrait because we needed to do that printing wise you know we need to have a quantity there in order to justify a new design and a whole new run.

But this way you can kind of use it however you want. And I think we have something that will work for just about anybody. Yeah. And you can get it now. We got a link in the show notes. So go ahead and click that and sign up and get that calendar. We've never sold t-shirts or anything else in relation to the focus podcast. Maybe hopefully we can do that next year.

I'd love to have a t-shirt with our cool logo on it. But the one thing we do to fundraise on the show is this calendar. And the reason where we do it is because we both use it. You know, I just, I've always wanted to have a big wall calendar and this is as much as i like digital tools this is one analog tool that that is superior to digital and i had a choice i can either buy a uh i guess a 48 inch tv or whatever and put it on the wall or i could have a wall calendar. And I think the wall calendar is the way to go. Yeah, I agree. You made the right choice. But enough about the calendars. Let's talk to our guest today, which is Taylor Jacobson. Welcome to the Focus podcast, Taylor.

Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So we got introduced to Taylor via John Zorotsky, who was the co-author of the Make Time book. And we interviewed on Focused. He emailed us and he said, you got to meet this Taylor guy. He's perfect for your show. And after doing the discovery call, I have to say, I think I agree. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation. But Taylor is the person behind Focusmate, which is this interesting website, which pairs you up with people who are trying to do work. And maybe you can explain this a little bit better than I can, Taylor. But the basic idea

is that you get paired with people in like a Zoom call, right? And then you turn on your camera and just the presence of somebody else there is enough accountability for you to follow through and do what you intended to do for whatever time period you set. Totally. Yeah. It's, uh, holding each other accountable and keeping each other company basically is kind of the combo. So join a call, you meet your partner, but really quickly, you just sharing what you're committing to for that, that session. And, uh, and then you get to it and check check in at the end you talk about how it went but yeah you uh you got it you know it's amazing to me how easily we break our promises to ourselves but when you add another person to the mix suddenly it gets real for us yeah totally i mean Yeah, totally. I mean, the very kind of simple way to understand this is that even though we think we are like rational creatures, we're really not at all. basically happened in a tribal environment where our competitive advantages over, you know,

lions and bears and whatnot was, was basically our social skills, you know, our ability to communicate and coordinate and support each other in different ways. And so that's what our bodies are meant to do. And, you know, so you channel all the various ways that our bodies just want to do that. And you can use that for a great advantage to help you focus, among other things. And that focus has been around a while, right, Taylor? Yeah, about five years. I mean, this predates, you know, the world of COVID. I mean, this predates the world of COVID.

And I have several friends that are big proponents of it. I've got a repeating task in OmniFocus that I've got to go sign up and try this. So getting you on is going to give me the kick in the pants I probably needed. But I do feel like with COVID, where everybody got stuck home and a lot of people are still home, something like this is even more important. Totally. I'll say costly it is to be too isolated. How quickly our mental and physical well-being just really takes a hit when we don't have enough connection. And, you know, that affects all things. It certainly affects our productivity, you know, our ability to just, you know, be intentional and have mojo. So, yeah, I think that light bulb is turning on for people. And, and, you know, the other thing about focus made is it's, it's an act of

vulnerability to kind of like, just to sign up, just to kind of like raise your hand and be like, yo, I could use some support. Like I'm not, I would like to be doing something differently than I am, you know, currently. Um, and I would say the last year and a half has, uh, uh, I don't want to say this exposed a lot of vulnerability for a lot of us, you know, forced a lot of us into positions where we're needing help, where we might never have asked for it before because we're facing challenges we've never faced before. And so I think that's a good thing. You know, like, I think it's healthy for us to come face to face with our, you know,

our demons so that we can stop being too proud to ask for the things that we need. You know, I've never heard it stated in those terms that, you know, realizing something isn't working and you need help or you need to change something as an act of vulnerability. But, you know, you're absolutely right that it is. Yeah. And I'll say not just an act of vulnerability, but maybe this is a Brene Brown, or at least I'll give her credit for it, but like vulnerability and courage are really like two sides of the same, of the same

coin. So, um, you know, I, I used to say this a lot in the early goings of Focusmate that like, you can choose to be proud or you can choose to like be your best. You can choose to grow and become a better version of you and but you really can't have both you have to be vulnerable you know in order to to change or to seek resources or support or you know what have you so yeah have you seen a large uptick in the amount of people who are asking for that help and embracing that vulnerability with the onset of COVID? Oh yeah, huge. Yeah, we definitely exploded all throughout last year and that's sustained this year as well. So do you think there is a particular personality type that this is going to be more comfortable or appropriate for?

So I guess my thing that's always held me back as an extreme introvert, believe it or not, is that I feel very apprehensive about just coming on video with a total stranger and working in front of them for an hour. Is this something where extroverted people, just like my wife is kind of this way, and she's been during COVID, like looking for those connections. She goes kind of stir crazy when she doesn't get out of the house enough. She needs that social interaction where I would be fine, you know, in the corner with a book. That's all the company I need. Or is this something that

is totally appropriate for me too and I just need to try it once and then I'll learn to love it? It's definitely what you just said. Like, it's definitely not an introvert, extrovert thing. And I would say that the fear that you have is just human. Like guess one of the corollaries of this tribal psychology thing is that we are, let's say, brightly skeptical of new people. It's a healthy adaptation, and it creates a whole bunch of negative externalities like intense tribalism that we see in other facets of our lives that we won't go into on, on this conversation. But, um, no, I think that's super

normal. And it's, it's kind of a meme in focus mate, where it's like, I was scared until I met my partner for the first time and it was awesome. And I haven't looked back and I'm 500 sessions in and I've, you know, I've loved almost every partner. So I think it's just, uh, I don't know. It's the first time jumping off the diving board and then you're like, Oh, that was super fun. Sure. So where did the idea for Focusmate come from? Was it just something that you recognized you had this need and you created a solution for it? Or were you thinking about tribal social gatherings and this is the way people need to work and there needs to be something for the 21st century? What's the story here? I'm definitely not that much of a mastermind.

story here like I'm definitely not that much of a mastermind I don't think I've ever done anything that strategically no it's definitely honestly it was like this dark fantasy that I had that

I was like too ashamed to ever tell anybody about you know like nobody should ever you know I can't believe how you know so I'll take a step back. I, in 2011, I started working from home. I was working in a job and I started working from home and my productivity just completely fell apart.

And I was just super ashamed and, and eventually depressed. And I just started tearing through all the, you know, 2011 was like the, the era of the blog. And, um, I just started tearing through like all these productivity blogs and trying all sorts of stuff and, uh, not to paint with too broad a brushstroke, but like nothing worked, you know? And it honestly, a lot of it just made me feel worse because I was like, what am I missing? And you read stuff online and not to knock what people write. Like I think people are sharing insights that have been transformative for them, but it's just, there's something lost in translation when you read even the most brilliant and nuanced productivity advice. And so I just

kind of kept getting lost in those gaps and nothing was working for me. And I eventually left that job to start my own solopreneur business. And it just was like more of the same where I was really struggling. And so it was like years of pain, you know, and I eventually started working as an executive coach because I became so passionate about all this behavior change stuff I was studying. And I was just talking to a client who had also become a really good friend and he was sharing how much he was struggling working from home, procrastinating. And it just was kind of this moment where I was like, you know what? I feel really safe with this guy. He's being so vulnerable with me. We're so close. And I just told him about this fantasy that I had that was like, let's get on a video call and tell each other exactly what we're going to do. And we'll get really specific because I knew that that helped. And then we'll write it down because I know that helps. And then we'll just keep each that I just kind of knew in that moment what I really wanted. And I felt like safe enough to tell somebody that said, yes, let's do it.

And really the rest is history. He and I tried it and it was just like, what a relief. I didn't know that I could get into a state of flow, like snapping my fingers and stay there. Um, and so, yeah, you know, from there it was just didn't look back. Do you think it was, I mean, what was it for you that kind of prompted this? Were you looking for accountability or were you just looking for, you know, having someone else with you? I mean, what do you think triggered it for you? My life is passing me by, and I know there's ways that I want to show up in the world that I'm not right now, and it's painful. It's painful to know what's inside of you and to not be able to honor that in your self-expression. I had done well by societal standards. I was jumping through all the hoops that looked like success, but

I mean, who cares, right? Like I just, I was experiencing agony on a daily basis of, I want to write this blog article and why is it so hard? You know, why does it feel like hours and days and weeks are like vanishing into the abyss so uh yeah that's that's where it came from yeah mike and i were literally just talking about this off long yesterday like this this kind of life hack mentality and so many people equate the word productivity with you know parlor tricks when really that's that is so shallow There's so much more to it. And, um, it sounds to me like you kind of went on the same journey. I'm still on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so you did one with a client, you did a,

you did, you had a focus mate session before there was a focus mate and, and how to work out for you. Yeah. Like I i was saying it just it was like a light switch went on you know and both of us were incredibly focused um and you know looking back we can dive into this more but like it was so grounding somehow to go through that ritual together that it it really my body, shifted my mind. Now, there's something that I only learned last year about the nervous system is that about this idea of co-regulation, nervous system co-regulation, that in a sense, it's not possible for us to get into the peak state of nervous system safety or groundedness.

Safety is kind of the, I'll say, scientific term for where you really want to be because it feels the best. uh when blood flow is optimized to the brain to the facial muscles to the throat muscles because you're optimizing for communication and collaboration and um as opposed to if you're feeling any level of anxiety that's you're dropping down into a lower nervous system state of uh flights or fight and um i don't think we think about ourselves as in fight or flight all the time, but really like any level of even negative self-talk is going to put you in a, at a very minimum, like a mixed state where you might feel a little safe, you might feel a little scared. And when that happens, blood flow shifts and it goes into your spinal column, into your limbs, so that you can either run or fight, predictable, structured social connection with another safe person where your nervous system shifts. And suddenly, literally, your physiology is able to have you in a peak productivity state very quickly.

I don't remember what question you asked me or if that answered it. You'll have to tell me. I find that fascinating. I actually want to come back to that in a little bit because I, too, am very interested in getting beyond the brain at this point. And I know some of the listeners are rolling their eyes, but just hang in there with me. I think this stuff can help.

But I also want to kind of tell the story of Focusmate. So, you know, you did this first session, you realized it worked, but at what point do you say, hey, this is a business and how did that all come about? Yeah. You know, I had been really interested in business, in entrepreneurship, really my whole life. And I tried many things, been part of different startup ventures. And so at the same moment as it clicked for me of this is really valuable for me, I was also like, oh, there are definitely millions of people for whom, at least for whom this could be life-changing um and honestly i i had let's say pushed enough boulders up enough up enough hills as an

entrepreneur that i i kind of slowed my role and i didn't do much with that realization initially, but I kind of went into this six-month incubation period where I was like, I'm not going to an underlying philosophy of a business that I had stumbled into, which is this idea of what if we turn this American ideal of rugged individualism on its head and just ask ourselves, like, well, if I want to be my best, what's it going to take? well, if I want to be my best, what's it going to take? If I could have anything I needed, anything I wanted, the sort of ultimate hand-holding experience, what would that be like? And that felt really inspiring for me as a place to come from as a sort of foundational energy to create a business. Having just worked in so many environments where it was really the opposite of that, where people were prized for like figuring things out on their own, doing things on their own. And so that felt really inspiring and true for me. And then kind

of more like tactically, I just started to see a lot of possibilities for like, what could you do with these sort of core elements of human connection, like camaraderie team spirit combined with accountability and structure. Yeah. And, and so just had a lot of ideas around where it could go for many different audiences. Happy to go into more of the details of that but um yeah it was sort of like a million and one ideas and and then there was just a point where uh i was actually i was talking to a colleague and he just turned to me and he said you know i think you're gonna regret it if you don't do this. And something in my body just said, uh-huh,

that's true. And that was the moment where I just said, you know, I really went from hemming and hawing to like 100% I'm doing this. Well, also, I mean, the impression I get talking to you both offline and here on air is, I mean, you believe this can help people. And it's like when you stumble into something where, you know, getting back to the tribe, you can help the tribe, but also find a way to make a living. That's a pretty irresistible combination. Oh, yeah. What a gift. Totally.

Yeah, and something I'd been trying to find for my whole life, you know. Yeah, and something I'd been trying to find for my whole life, you know. This episode of Focused is brought to you by Indeed. No successful entrepreneur is an island. It takes a core team of trusted advisors to help you build your business from the ground up. And when it comes to hiring, leave it to the experts. You need Indeed. Indeed is a hiring partner that gets you what you really want, which is a short list of quality candidates as fast as possible. Simply

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This offer is valid through December 31st. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Our thanks to Indeed for their support of this show and all of RelayFM. I want to go back and ask something about that nervous safety system that you had mentioned, Taylor, and this I think can kind of lead into how Focusmate actually works. But how long does it take to go from that anxious fight versus flight moment to developing enough trust where

your nervous system is directing it towards the face for the collaboration like you were talking about. Yeah, it's pretty instant. When you see somebody smiling, each of us can kind of take a look in our own lives and know how true this is. You can be ruminating and stressed or something. And then somebody can just look at you with just like a really radiant smile and like totally pierce right through that in a second and just kind of melts you. Um, so yeah, it's, it's pretty instantaneous. And, you know, part of how we create that is we just have so much, uh, we just have so much intentionality and commitment to a culture of love and kindness and acceptance. And so there's that kind of just not kind of, it really just permeates all corners of

the Focusmate community of the experience. And I'll say even, I think, you know, what happens over time is you even start to know that you can count on that, look forward to that aspect of meeting your focusmate partner. And, oh, like I'm going to, I might meet somebody new and maybe in a country that I've never met somebody from, and they'll be, maybe they'll be working on something just like me or like, there's always some aspect of, um, kind of magic in, in, in that connection that, um, but yeah, because of that intentionality, people really show up and they are like, all right, I'm, I want to create a great experience for myself and for my partner. And, and so it's very quick that you join and, and some kind of mojo gets to start building. Is there any sort of onboarding for the community laying out those kind of sounds like almost core values or core principles behind what Focusmate really is?

really is. I kind of get this picture of if you just join it looking for, I want to get the most out of my time, going back to the definition of productivity that none of us really like, that could be kind of contrary to the experience that you're describing. I don't think it's contrary, actually. I mean, it depends what you mean. If you're treating your partner as a robot who's there to ensure you get your taxes done, it's probably not going to work out very well. But no, I think those goals are actually really aligned of feeling good and then also spending your time the way you want to, just for all the reasons we talked about as far as how the nervous system works. But yes, there's lots of onboarding. Really every touchpoint is reinforcing that.

You can't really sign up without having the values in your face, whether explicitly or just through the copywriting, through the demo video. And then actually when you join, on your first few sessions, your partner is alerted that you're new to the platform and they're encouraged to check in with you, see if you have any questions and just like help hold your hand through that experience as being a newcomer. So, um, that also obviously goes a long way. Right. No, that, that makes sense. Um, I guess what I was thinking of was kind of an own tipping point for myself and my productivity journey. When Chris Bailey, who has been on the show and was actually the person who introduced me to Focusmate for the first time. He wrote in the Productivity Project, kind of rocked my world when I read it,

that people are the reason for productivity. Because up until that point, everything that I had read had been focused on just the outcomes. And when you put another person's face on it, when you make it real, this is another human, you know, kind of the results aren't as important anymore. It's the people that you do life with that are sometimes more important than the results that you're trying to achieve. And I was just curious, it sounds like you do have some of that stuff built into the process that kind of cultivates that it's not just a happy accident that everybody who joins Focusmate, you know, ends up contributing to that, but you've actually put some thought into the design of the whole process in order to facilitate it. Oh yeah. I mean, look, like we're all going to die

and you got done. It ain't going to matter. Um, you know, We're all going to hopefully look back and be grateful for the times that we showed up the way we wanted to show up, that we embodied the values that we espouse. How does a session work, just practically, if someone signs up for it? Yeah. How does a session work? Just practically, if someone signs up for it. Yeah, so you go to the site, focusmate.com, focusmate.com. It's free to join and sign up, and we have a free tier. And pretty quickly, you find yourself on sort of a calendar. It looks similar to how your Google calendar, whatever calendar you use. And, and you, you can just schedule a time, anytime that you want to be focused, want to be intentional with that time. Um, you can book a 25 minute session. You can book a 50 minute session. Um, and we find a partner for you.

Um, so it's, that's really all you have to do is just decide when you want to be productive. Um, you know, a lot of people will book a session to get their day started. A lot of people will book sessions throughout their entire day, um, to just keep them on track. But, um, yeah, so, you know, come session time, uh, you'll, you'll join a video call and you'll meet your partner. Uh, we say spend about 60 seconds or less, you know, greeting your partner and then just sharing what you're going to get up to. And, um, so it's enough time to be friendly and warm, but to not get derailed, which let's say you're an introvert or you have some social anxiety. It's actually, it's so simple and predictable that it really takes a lot of that anxiety out of it where you

just follow these steps, greet your partner, you know, smile, hopefully, and then ask, Hey, David, what are you working on this hour? And, um, a lot of people will write down their plan in the chat to hold themselves further accountable. And then most people will mute their microphone and just get down to work and, you know, probably drag your partner into the corner of the screen or, you know, I'll use a separate device so that I have my partner, you know, like full screen next to me while I'm working. And, you know, let's say it's a 50 minute session. The end comes, a chime goes off and you come back and you say, hey, David, how'd it go? You know, and you spend about a minute or two just talking about how it went and maybe it went great. Awesome. Maybe you got distracted. And actually there's a lot of research that shows that immediately reflecting on, uh, let's say on your productivity is incredibly

value valuable for increasing your productivity. So you have that opportunity right away to just notice like, Oh, I got derailed by this, or, you know, I was super hungry and, you know, got distracted by that. And then you say thanks and you go on your way. Yeah. One of the things I really like about it is that there is a norm here that, I mean, you're friendly at the beginning for a short period at the end but you don't chat with the partner during it i mean when i first heard about focus mate one of my concerns was you know i used to work in an office and i know what it's like to try and get work done with people constantly knocking on your door or swinging by your cubicle and this is not that i mean the um

the focus mate session you're not to speak with this person for the vast majority of this time yeah the office is is great for some things it's great for like grabbing lunch with a co-worker to blow off steam but um yeah focus mate in a lot of ways is like if you redesigned the office with some intention what would you do i think you would do some things like this yeah and the um you can get the free tier is three sessions a week so you can really kick the tires on this and then the the paid tier is just five dollars a month and it's unlimited sessions this is not a massive investment i i really you know even i'm going to try it i just i don't know why i haven't yet i just i needed a kick like like i said earlier

but i think there's something to this you guys have continued to study the science kind of behind this as well as you've grown focus mate right yeah it's and it's funny it's funny. It's sort of, it's almost like we've discovered how much science we accidentally baked into it. And then of course we are intentional about it as well. But yeah, it just, it turns out there's so much science that validates why this is so magical. Yeah. Anything specific you'd care to share in terms of the science behind this and why it works so well? specific you'd care to share in terms of the science behind this and why it works so well? Yeah. So, I mean, we kind of talked about the high level of like how we're wired as social animals. You know, to be more specific, you know, we talked about the co-regulation, right? So ton of evidence that you can shift your nervous system state into this optimal productivity state just by being with another person. There's a notion of pre-commitment, which David just exhibited a pre-commitment, and we could actually further enhance the pre-commitment by asking you,

David, when or by when will you do a Focusmate session? Let's make David the guinea pig here. I like this. I'll take it. I'm used to that. I will have done one by the next time we record this show. We'll feedback. That's pretty sneaky. When is that? Two weeks from now, about more or less.

All right. I'm going to let you get away with the more or less, and we'll just say two weeks. But yeah, so that's a pre-commitment and there's science that shows that, okay, now you're much more likely to actually do a Focusmate session because A, you said you'd do it. B, you made a plan.

And that's another effect called implementation intention. So, and we could even enhance that one by saying, well, tell us like when you're going to schedule, like when, when are you going to go on Focusmate and actually book this appointment? And, you know, maybe where are you going to be when you do this and all these kinds of things. So Focusmate creates implementation intentions because it's sort of like the staircase of every step leading you up to the moment where you're going to be productive. Like there's no uncertainty left

about that process. There's nowhere, there's no eddies for you to get stuck in. So if you want the pressure to follow through and do what you said you were going to do without the potential public shaming of your co-host asking you about this the next episode, then try Focusmate instead. Yeah. Well, but also, you know, kind of a point there that stands out to me, maybe I'm a little bit off the rails here, but we frequently talk about the benefits of block scheduling on this show and how, you know, your calendar is worth more than just the place you put dentist appointments for. But I do know, myself included, when you make these appointments with yourself to work on a project, it is very easy to ignore those blocks. I mean, that is one of the tricks to this is you've got to really develop this serious commitment that you put it in the calendar, you're going to

do it at that moment, or you're going to do it at that moment or you're going to reschedule it you know because something came up but you're not going to just let these blocks go by willy-nilly and ignore them but i feel like that the advantage of focus made is you say okay i'm going to do this client project on thursday and i'm making an appointment with myself well that's one option but if i say i'm going to do this client on thursday and I'm making an appointment with myself. Well, that's one option. But if I say I'm going to do this client on Thursday and I'm going to commit to Focusmate and there's going to be another human on this planet that is equally serious about his or her work and that person is counting on me to be here doing that, I think that's a whole

other level of commitment. Oh, yeah. I mean, and if you haven't done something like had a study buddy or something like that, a lot of people have experienced this in the realm of exercise where, hey, do you want to take a walk with me once a week? And we're now 6 a.m. Tuesday walking buddies or something.

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I want to talk about kind of your journey with this. Yeah, and I'm totally with you that routines and habits are invaluable. So I want to be unequivocal about that. I think maybe one way to just say this is like, I just got not be in too much pain to focus for the rest of the day. So it was like this treadmill kind of experience of, all right, I'm going to get up and I'm going to have my lemon water and I'm going to do my yoga and I'm going to meditate and I'm going to whatever this stuff was. And it changed over the years and I learned a lot of different stuff that's been super valuable. But it was always like getting me out of the hole that I was in from grinding my body, you know, to a place where my well-being was really out of whack. And so that I could keep pushing.

And I don't think I realized that. I don't think I thought of it that way. You know, I think it's kind of on vogue right now to throw shade on Gary Vaynerchuk for screw hustle culture, take care of ourselves. But that is so deeply embedded in all of us. It's the American way. We're enterprising capitalists, and those things are awesome. Like there's so much great there, but it's so just, I'll speak for myself. It was so deeply embedded in me that I didn't realize that I was doing it to myself, like these aches and pains and fatigue and on and on and on. And, um, and yeah, and last year, uh, I went through some crisis and it just crushed anymore. You know, I was too broken down to do that. Um, the new game to play became, okay, well, what does my body need? You know? And fortunately I had, I had all these tools and habits at my disposal, right? I'd spent,

you know, years and years and years studying this and implementing this and being super disciplined. And then, you know, maybe if you're lucky, you have an experience where you just realize that the only path forward is to tune in to what your body needs right now. forward is to tune into what your body needs right now. Um, how do I take care of this experience that I'm having right now? Um, and so I just started to cultivate that as a skill and notice where I was overriding that. Um, in fact, just this, this week, maybe Monday, I want to say, I was like, I was like, Whoa, I haven't worked out for a couple of weeks. Darn. And I just started to feel like, okay, I need to push myself to go work out. And that's such a common paradigm in my mind, in my head, you know, probably culturally, socially also. And I did. And my body was just like, nope, we did not want to do that. And so, yeah, I, you know, how does this affect productivity? I think it's actually helping to kind of decondition my beliefs that like,

I need to even accomplish anything in my life. I mean, yeah, I need to have money to get a meal and a roof over my head and that sort of practical thing. But what do we really need beyond that? You know, at least materially, not much. So yeah, that's kind of my current quest, if you will, Not much. So, yeah, that's kind of my current quest, if you will, is learning to really tune in to what wants to happen right now. There's a lot to unpack there. I want to start with just the body awareness.

And since I'm from California, I get to wear the hippie hat most often. But I've had a similar experience and this is the part where some of our audience rolls their eyes but i'd like you to just come along with me every minute and in 1993 i started studying as in meditation and um i had been reading books about it my whole life and i was super excited about mindfulness and even before that was a thing you know and um and my teacher spent probably six months on being aware of everything from your breath to your toes everything except my brain and at one point i asked her i said isn't this about mindfulness how come you keep talking about my body you know and you you do realize that there is a a bias i believe in america that when we think about

your person you know when you think about who am i it's all centered around your brain you know it's about your thoughts about yourself many of which are not true by the way and just you know what happens in your brain, but it is your entire body. And there is an awareness of that. And let's just look at it from a selfish productivity angle, that when you become more aware of how you're feeling, you know, the tension in your shoulders, the angst, you know, the tightness of your body, the angst, the tightness of your body that can really inform you on your journey to becoming more focused and productive. And I just think people miss that entirely. Yeah. There's a story that I like to tell on this, which was like, I don't even remember

what project I was working on, but it was some big stressful slide presentation that I had to make. And I think I had, I must've had five hours left or something. And I just was so tired. It was like, I was crawling on the ground and, and it was kind of this like do or die moment where I was like, am I going to keep grinding even though I'm crawling or am I going to take a nap and then have less time to work on this? And I must've taken like a two and a half hour nap. I felt like a new person, like got back to my computer, banged out this presentation in an hour and a half or something. And I felt awesome. And of course the work I did was so like incomparable to whatever garbage I would have produced if I didn't take a nap. And I think

that's a microcosm for what you're talking about, which is like, if you actually give your body what it needs, it's going to work a lot better for you. Yeah. And you have some control over that too. I mean, you can choose to relax your body. I mean, and I, I think that, um think that it's a two-way street. It's not just your brain telling your body to relax, that when your body relaxes, your brain can relax too. Does that make sense, guys? Am I just kind of like, you understand what I'm saying here? Yeah. In fact, I would say that's actually the easier pathway is to go through your body to your mind. Exactly. Because your mind is just, it's like an organ that it's like, I heard this somewhere and I love it. Like you don't think your thoughts any more than you

beat your own heart. So how can you shift your mind into a different state? Well, it actually starts often with looking untangled them. No, you just like, you actually released tension that you were holding in your body. And then suddenly, you know, you feel clear, clear headed. I just had this experience recently. I was at the dentist, just getting my teeth cleaned. And you know, you're at the dentist, there's people standing over you, sticking machines in your mouth. And I just took a moment to reflect on my body and i could feel the tension in my shoulders my hands were gripping the chair they weren't like i wasn't getting a cavity filled or anything this was not a painful experience but i had created this tension and just by becoming aware of it and letting the tension out of my body and feeling myself relax suddenly it was like no big deal and um

i just think that that's something that we're not raised to think about here in the united states and i think it's something that absolutely works totally yeah it's like you're we think of our body as like an appendage as opposed to uh... Yeah. The brain isn't necessarily in control, guys. Alan Watts called it the rebellious organ. And I love that. I love that concept because that's what it is. I mean, just think about self-talk. I mean, everybody listening to this show has had their brain at some point tell them something about themselves that is negative.

That is an absolute lie. It's a falsity. And if you stop objectively and you think about it, you're like, that's not true about me, but why does my brain tell me that anyway? Yeah. I'm curious, Taylor, what other maybe habits or routines you have embraced personally as a way to be more mindful of that connection between your brain and your body you've kind of talked about the mindfulness meditation talked about you mentioned yoga and kind of your whole focus on recognizing what your body needs i'm curious what other sorts of insights you've gleaned from that. Yeah. Well, it's my, my days are sometimes unrecognizable as compared to, you know, just a few years ago, you know, just a couple examples. I do a lot of walks now and, And walking is a great way to release fight-flight energy. I mean, if it's fight energy, you might need something a little more robust.

But often just a little bit of anxiety is just some stuck fight-flight energy. And so literally walking, you're mobilizing your body. And that's how the nervous system works. walking you're, you're mobilizing your body. And that's, that's how the nervous system works is if you're in, um, overwhelm, if you're in anxiety, um, you have to release whatever, wherever that fight flight came from, you know, maybe it was four days ago, you had a fight with your spouse, but that energy is still in there. You haven't released it. And like, you can see this in dogs, like a dog has some tiny little stressful experience, you know, crossing the street, something gets the other side of the street and I'll shake itself off immediately.

And we just don't do that. That's like the great breakdown, the great flaw of human design is we don't release really trauma, you know, is what that is. And so, yeah, walking is awesome. And then kind of another strategy for another problem is I'll just sit like on a bench at a park indefinitely. just sit like on a bench at a park indefinitely. And, um, and I find that so much of how I've showed up in my life is like on autopilot and not really self-aware. Um, I just kind of going from one thing to the next, right? Like the morning routine into the morning calls into the, I here's the 74 things on my to-do list into the gotta get dinner ready, whatever. And there's really no space for self-connection

in that. And I used to have a lot of judgments about like, well, doing nothing is super unproductive. But coming back to know, coming back to our, our shared definition of productivity has nothing to do with that really. It's, it's really about like, let's say being who you really want to be as expressed through the things you do with your time. And if you're never connecting to yourself, then you really can't do that. Um, so yeah, I spend a lot of time just sitting and doing nothing or listening to music, you know, to kind of just, it's like a quieting the water. This is like a Taoist idea that you really can't, you can't quiet, you can't see through the surface of water by like doing

anything to it. You just have to wait until it gets still. And I think that's a skill that has been super valuable for me to cultivate in order to actually hear myself, sense myself. I could see that being very valuable. And I love the approach you're taking with the habits and routines, because I think you're right that a lot of the traditional belief around the routines, thinking back to like the Miracle Morning by Hal Elrod, that was the first book I ever read on habits. And the whole idea is kind of wake up super early, spend an hour on yourself so that then you can do the rest of the stuff that you have to do the rest of the day. It's like the one hour that you spend taking care of yourself, that's preparing you for the next several hours of agony is a word you used earlier. Like I just got to get through this other stuff, but it's okay because at least I took care of myself first, you know?

Yeah. I mean, I think an hour would probably be a breakthrough for a lot of people. Um, so yeah, no, you know, I, I have no issue with that as a, as, as something that could be, you know, transformative for people, but I know for me, I've gone a lot further than that. I've, I've done nothing for days and, um, and just kind of being with the discomfort of that and confronting the images that we have of ourselves, you know, for example, as, uh, high achievers, as people who have an impact as people who, you know, are industrious or conscientious or, you know, and actually I think we're attached to images of ourselves as busy, you know, it's like a badge of honor. Um, just sitting and doing nothing will really force you to confront those beliefs about yourself, those images of yourself that you, you know, it's, it's really ego, right? It's like self aggrandizement. Um, and the problem with that is it keeps you from actually being yourself. You know,

it keeps you from hearing what your soul is really craving. Yeah. And I would add to that, um, that there's an element of fear. I think a lot of people are a little afraid to be alone with their thoughts. Because maybe you know in your guts that you're on the wrong track. And it's a lot easier to spend your time looking through Instagram photos than confronting that. And I think that's something that we all need to be brave about. Because, and I'm not saying that you have to like just stop working for days at a time, but you do need to be alone with your thoughts.

You know, you know, why not have an hour in the evening where the TV is not on, you know, and you find some way to sit still, you know, I mean, I,

the trick is that this is a hard topic to talk about because um so many people are are so set on you know go go go go and then when you're down you still have to be doing something but but there it's a lost art for a lot of people and i just think that there's so much to be gained from it. It's hard for me to talk about it without sounding like a crazy man. You don't sound crazy to me. Yeah, it's incredibly confronting to spend time with ourselves. I mean, that's the whole thing about mindfulness meditation,

is you're sitting there letting your brain run and trying to just observe what's going on. And there's a bunch of stuff buried in there coming out and it's sometimes painful to confront it is easier to watch something stupid on tv or to go on your favorite social media website of choice or watch some news channel that's going to get you riled up about something you can't control. To bring it down to earth a little bit, I know for me last year, when I really had to start spending more time with myself, I was astounded by how much grief there was in my body, you know, and it's, that's an emotion that if literally, you know, pre COVID, if you had asked me, what is grief? I don't think I could have even told you, right. Cause it was something that I had just suppressed so totally. Um, and then it was just like, Whoa, there is a very deep

well of, of grief here. You know, I think that for me, that really started coming on. Like I remember watching the George Floyd video and I just burst out crying, you know, and, and sort of game on after that. Um, but yeah, like when you spend time with yourself, you might realize, like you said, like, oh, I'm in the wrong career, I'm in the wrong relationship, or any number of things that are terrifying to realize. Yeah, but you know what? As you said earlier, none of us are getting out of this alive, so you're going to serve yourself better to figure that out now rather than tomorrow.

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slash focused for a free trial with no credit card required. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code focused F O C U S E D to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash focus. And when you decide to sign up, use the offer code FOCUSED to get that 10% off your first purchase and show your support for the FOCUSED podcast. Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show and all of RelayFM. One of the things Mike and I talk about a lot on the show is willpower and where it works and where it doesn't work. And I know that's something that you've got thoughts on as well.

I mean, Focusmate really is of is built to address this. One of the statements on your website is that you need to stop relying on willpower. Why doesn't willpower work? I think a lot of willpower is kind of, it's connected to a lot of this conversation we just had. It's kind of just running roughshod over um the reality of your body and your mind and um and i think another another facet of it is like we we want to think of ourselves as so capable right we want to think of ourselves as so capable, right?

We want to think of ourselves as like, like I can have that pizza in front of me and not eat it. That makes me a better person. I guess it's like we glamorize willpower in our culture. It kind of comes back to the rugged individualism thing. Yeah. The cult of busy, same thing. Yeah.

Like if you can do it on your own, that makes you a better human. The problem is that literally none of us can do it on our own. That's not how we're made. So like you could try and you might be better at it than, you know, your friend Joe, and you might get an ego boost out of being better at it than Joe, but you're sure nowhere near your potential because you're trying to do it on your own. And that's not how you're wired. Um, and the visual that I sometimes use is like, And the visual that I sometimes use is like, you know, you could lift weights while you're treading water, but it's a terrible idea. You know, so maybe like get onto stable ground and like get a spotter and, you know, all of the conditions that are conducive of weightlifting. So what are the conditions that

are conducive of us being the people that we want to be? I know for me, if I have pizza in the house, pizza's getting eaten. If I don't, well, it ain't. So to me, that's kind of the story with willpower. It's like, okay, yeah, willpower exists. Free will exists. You can make a choice in the moment. Great. Can we fill up 99% of the effort through other tools so that we don't have to use our willpower? Great. Let's do that. And then we'll use the willpower for the last 1%. And that's going to always lead to a more predictable and a better outcome. Yeah. Creating an environment where you can succeed versus one where you have to spend all your

energy avoiding pizza. Right. Then that becomes your full-time job. And you're probably bad at it if you're me. I love the idea of weightlifting while treading water. And it's like, how often do we do that to ourselves in so many contexts? It's a nice visualization to kind of keep in your mind as you're going through the day. If what you're doing is hard, are you right now

weightlifting while treading water? Are you making it artificially hard for yourself? I know I do that all the time. Yeah. I mean, to me, that was the breakthrough for me personally with even that first Focusmate session was like, screw it. I don't need to be special and awesome. I just want to get this stuff done, you know, and I can choose one or the other. So you kind of have to surrender to that need to be like i don't i don't need focus mate like i can do this you know i'm fine like all these stories it's just like okay sure try it do it that way if that's so important to us right like we can uh we can hang on to those uh egoic notions or we could just make it as easy as we possibly can and uh and do the things that we want to do i'm thinking back to when you had mentioned about the flow state and how that can be

facilitated via a focus mate session you're talking about the first one you did and you just kind of went right into the the flow state and for people who aren't familiar with the state of flow, it kind of goes back to Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, I think is how you pronounce it. And he's got a whole book on that flow state. And that's really the thing that people crave based on the research that he did is they want to get into that flow state because that is actually very rewarding. You're really engaged in your work. And as a writer, maybe you get in the zone and you can crank out the words just are flowing and you kind of covet getting into that zone. But it feels kind of hard to manufacture a lot of times as you're talking about willpower and relying on willpower for resisting the pizza

and the weightlifting and the treading water, I'm having this realization that if you are relying on willpower at all, you are severely hindering your chances of getting into that flow state which kind of ties into the previous section on your whole of a focus on doing nothing for lack of a better term i think that's kind of the ideal right is that you allow yourself to do nothing and then when you do something you do it in flow state and you're just going back and forth between those and you don't have to spend the number of hours because the the output you're able to get from the flow state and you're just going back and forth between those and you don't have to spend the number of hours because the output you're able to get from the flow state is far superior to anything that you're able to do just based on the number of hours that you can force yourself to suffer through. Yeah, totally. Well, it's like there's one other habit that I've cultivated,

which is napping. So I'll bring that into this example. But like, you know, if you're resting enough, if you're grounding yourself, whether it's through, you know, yoga or walking or whatever works for you, if you're taking space to be contemplative and connect to your, your self, your, you know, your true self, um, now you're resourced, you know, physically, emotionally, now you're clear. And so that's kind of like, now you're fully cocked and ready to, your body is ready to have that kind of flow experience. Yeah, I'm a big fan of napping.

I want to get back to flow state, but just getting enough sleep, it's like such a foundational moment, right? My youngest daughter, she's at UCLA in her sophomore year right now. And I said, you know, she got to move into the dorm because, you know, things are getting better here in California. So she did her first year at home, but now she's going to be living in the dorm. here in California. So she did her first year at home, but now she's going to be living in the dorm. And I said, the one piece of advice I'll give you is even though you're living in dorm, try and get enough sleep because nothing else works if you don't get enough sleep. Mike and I did a whole show on this, so I don't want to like bang on about it, but, but a nap is a great

way to help, you know, help solve that problem. Oh yeah. Well, yeah. Well, I want to gift your listeners with this slogan that is life-changing for me, which is, when in doubt, nap it out. Yeah. Love that. Like, I can be puttering around trying to figure out what to do next. And seriously, nine times out of 10, I can't figure out what to do next because I'm tired. And now that I know that I'll just lay down and sometimes it'll just be five minutes and I'll, it's like suddenly something will click and I'll pop out of bed and I'll know what to do, you know? But yeah, sleep is magic. I, you know, I, I don't know why I like, I really like reading biographies of

people. And when I was pretty young, I stumbled into the biography of Colin Powell, of all people. I don't know why I was reading his book. And he talked about how every time he had bad news in his career or in his life, he would just go to sleep. That was his response to bad news. And then he would always feel better about it when he woke up. And that stuck with me. And I use the same habit now anytime something just goes really bad uh i just i just say okay time for a nap or i'll just go to bed now and then tomorrow morning i'll deal with it and it's kind of magical how much that sleep can make bad news better yeah well not to nerd out too hard

on nervous system stuff but you but when you're sleeping, generally, unless you ate right before, you go into the rest and digest state. And that means you're healing. And I think of healing as a very holistic thing. So if something bad happens in your life, to me, it's like the same as you have an injury. You know, we experience that on a cellular level. And so, yeah, you can literally heal whatever that trauma is that you experience, at least in part, by sleeping. Now, Mike, I think the last time this came up, you said you weren't really, you weren't much of a napper. Has that changed? Are you still piling through the day? I am still not a napper. Although every time we talk about this, I feel inspired to give it a shot.

So I don't know. My big thing, and I know in my head that this doesn't really matter, but I have trouble falling asleep quickly in the middle of the day. So for a while, I would set aside a half an hour to nap and I wouldn't actually fall asleep. And I would just feel like, oh, that was a waste of 30 minutes. And I understand now, again, logically, rationally, that there is some benefit that comes from that. But for whatever reason, I get up and I just am annoyed and I'm in this negative state and I carry that over into whatever else I do. So I just kind of got to the point where I'm better off just not even trying. So Taylor, what's your nap protocol? How long do you nap and how do you get yourself to sleep?

First of all, I'll just say for all the non-nappers out there, no judgment, including you, Mike. I think there's kind of a time and place for everything. And sometimes we're just in a phase of life or whatever where that's not what we need. whatever, where that's not what we need. So, um, but you know, I, I relate a lot to what you said, Mike, about like, well, I can't fall asleep. So it was a waste. And that's been me for a lot of my life. And I really had to like shift my conditioning around that to realize that that only matters if I think I need to accomplish something in my life. And that is true. And, you know, this gets a little bit nuanced, but, you know, for me, I think it's important to disentangle this sense that I need to accomplish something with this very, uh, like emergent

human drive to contribute, uh, to serve, to love. I think that's ultimately like the motor that has us get out of bed and record podcasts and build software is like, I think that's kind of our, our deepest nature is, is that, is that desire. Um, but, uh, I think it helps a lot to do that from a place of realizing that like, it's, you're not doing that because you're bad. If you don't, it's just because that's who you are. Um, so for me, I've been able to stop caring. If I fall asleep, it's just like, ah, I feel tired. I'm going to lay down. And sometimes I fall asleep and it's like, hell yeah, I drooled in that nap. That was a magnificent two hour nap, like crush it, feel amazing. And sometimes I'll lay there for 10 minutes and I'll be like, wow, I guess I'm not that tired.

And that's what I needed. And I feel kind of more restless lying here than I do getting up. So I'm going to get up. Um, but yeah, I tell you, I relate to, uh, that, that struggle. So yeah, to answer your question, David, I don't, I don't always fall asleep. I probably more often than not, I don't fall asleep. I just rest. Maybe I need a focus mate session to take a nap. Yeah. Focus. It has happened. I, uh, yeah. Two hour nap would kill me me because the problem is then I can't get rolling again. I think I'm more tactical about napping. I use it as a tool. But I don't do it every day.

But when I get to like 1 or 2 o'clock, if I feel myself having trouble focusing on whatever I'm doing at the time, having trouble focusing on whatever I'm doing at the time, I will just say, okay, enough is enough. And I'll lay down for like at most 45 minutes. Usually I set a timer for 35 minutes and boy, I I'm lucky, I guess. Cause man, I closed my eyes cause I only do it when I'm tired. So when I close my eyes, I go straight to sleep. It's, it's not a problem for me. But it does help. It does help. You wake up, you feel like, just like you were talking about earlier when you had the project, you couldn't get work done and you slept for two hours and all of a sudden it was easy. But it's not just napping, you know, taking the dog for a walk or going out and pulling weeds in the garden.

for a walk or going out and pulling weeds in the garden. There's a lot of things you can do, I feel like, with your body that can bring you kind of back to a little more focused and centered status. It doesn't take a lot of time. Yeah, 100%. Well, I do think that I have now committed publicly to go on Focusmate and do a couple of these sessions. So I'm looking forward to it. I think it's actually going to help me. So I'm looking forward to it. I'll be reporting back on that on the next episode. Taylor, if people want to find you, where should they look?

I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on Twitter, just Taylor Jacobson. And I'm also on focus mate if you see me in the calendar feel free to you know nab a session with me i'll look for the taylor nap sessions maybe we'll do that yeah the um i i get i think focus makes a great idea thank you so much for making this thing and bringing it to the world and i know i mean it's it's it's very popular i mean you guys have a lot of users yeah it's uh it's a very global community at this point um i think earlier this year we we noticed that we have users now in every country which was a cool cool milestone so that is cool there's little positive externalities of focus mate, which is like, you know, making the world a little bit more intimate and meeting people that you

wouldn't otherwise meet and feeling how similar we all are, you know, that we're all just trying to like, just be a little bit better version of ourselves. Well, thanks again, Taylor, for coming on. Everybody go check out Focusmate. We are the Focus Podcast. You can find us at relay.fm. Thank you to our sponsors today.

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