Focused - 165: On the River, with Chris Upchurch

Episode Date: November 22, 2022

Chris Upchurch joins us to talk about his recent career change from metropolitan transportation planner to whitewater rafting guide.

Welcome to Focus, the productivity podcast about more than just cranking widgets. I'm Mike Schmitz. I'm joined by my fellow co-host, Mr. David Sparks. Hey, David. Hey, Mike. I'm so happy to be recording Focus with you today. I know. I'm excited to talk to our special guest here today. But before we do that, we should announce the New York calendars again. They are officially available now. We'll have a link in the show notes. This is the 2023 version of the calendar. And there's an extra little digital goodie with

this one. There's an action pad that goes along with it. So in addition to seeing your whole year at a glance, there's a PDF download that Jesse and I collaborated on that you can use to plan your day. And there's a video which walks you through how that works and what it looks like over on the product page. So go check that out. Yeah. Great job on the video, by the way. I didn't realize it until I started thinking about the other day. This is our fourth annual wall calendar for the Focus podcast. And I really love mine. I mean, I look at it all the time. Even though we've got digital calendars, I think having your year calendar at a glance can really help you. I mean, that's the reason why we came out with this in the beginning and to see, you know, periods of time and you know, where you're,

you're busy. It's really good when someone calls you on the phone and says, Hey, I'd love you to do this thing. And you look at your calendar and you realize you're super booked that month gives you an excuse to say no i really like it um the calendar has evolved over the years and uh it's now dry race and it's two-sided so you've got landscape and portrait depending on how you want to hang it on your wall um like mike said now we've added digital downloads this year you've got the cool you know daily planner uh which i use on an ipad and mike uses on a remarkable. So, you know, you can choose your poison there. But yeah,

I think it's cool. And it's really great. I can't wait to get mine and get it started rolling for next year. Even if you're totally digital, I think this is something that can be really helpful. You can get it for $30 plus shipping. We've got a link in the show notes and I've heard from a lot of people over the years that bought these and like them. If you'd like a little help getting focused next year,

sticking a year calendar on the wall can really help out. And go check it out. And that does help support us as well. 100% agree. And just a little bit of background here. You mentioned this is the fourth year that we've done it. I've actually used a New Year calendar for something close to 10 years. I've been a big fan of these calendars long before we actually started making one. That was kind of a little

mini dream come true, actually, to work with Jesse and make the one that we always wanted. So I 100% endorse this thing. It's not just something that we put together. It's a tool that we both use all the time. And a pro tip here for people who are interested in this, you recommended a couple of years ago that I mounted on foam core. So I did that at the local FedEx Kinko's. And that is a great tip. It makes it a lot easier to write on so uh i have mine mounted on foam core behind me and i'm looking forward to getting the 2023 version which is shipping as we record this yeah i'll give you another pro tip um you get some of that uh what do you call that sticky stuff with a velcro on it um that you hang pictures with. Like the command strips?

Command strips, that's it. Yeah, so get a pack of those. Put one on each top corner and one in the center. And then you just stick it on the wall. And when you want to pull it down, so long as you don't go crazy with the command strips, you can just pull it off. It de-velcros itself.

You can work on it on a tabletop or whatever and then just stick it back up when you're done i i pull it down all the time and and work on it i i love it and like you i also put on a foam core uh we can't ship them to you with foam core because then the shipping would go through the roof you get it rolled up but but yeah uh i would recommend if you get one to have it mounted but you don't have to you can do it whatever you want but i'm just really glad we're selling these things um i would be buying one if we weren't selling one because I've really come to rely on it, but I'm glad we are. I love seeing the little focused look logo up there. It's got the motto life is more than cranking widgets right there, staring you right back in the face every day. So you remember that as you make your plans and work through the day. And, uh, and once again,

I'm just really happy we're selling it again. Go check it out. We've got a link in the show notes. And watch Mike's video, man. It's so good. I mean, Mike, you are such a pro. Thank you. That part-time YouTuber academy paying off.

There you go. Either way, we have a guest today. Welcome to the show, Chris Upchurch. Thanks, David. So, Chris, I first met you through the Mac Power Users. You were at a couple events that we did with the show, and then we also met at MacStock. But I love reading Chris's post. He's a listener, but very active in the community, on the forums, very thoughtful guy about focus and productivity. But that's not all you do, Chris. Tell us a little bit about what you're up

to. Well, I have just done some fairly major life changes. Earlier this year, I quit my day job and have switched over to being a whitewater rafting guide. So what all does that entail? What was your day job? First of all, I guess, give us a context here for the switch. And then what exactly does that look like, a whitewater rafting guide? So the old day job, I was a metropolitan transportation planner. I worked for an organization that was like an association of local governments and helped them coordinate their transportation planning and access federal funding. I'm actually a geographer by training. I'd been a geography professor, but then moved over to doing the transportation planning work.

And I enjoyed it. It was a subject I'd always been interested in. I had good colleagues, very flexible job in terms of work from home, that sort of thing. If there was one disadvantage, it's the metropolitan part of that. I really enjoy, have always enjoyed the outdoor recreation, hiking and backpacking. And it's hard to find jobs where you're both convenient to that and in a big metropolitan area that needs these sorts of transportation planners. But I tended to spend all of my vacation days traveling, usually out to the western U.S. and go hiking in Montana or Utah or someplace like that. Earlier this year, though, I

had an opportunity to do a 18-day river trip through the Grand Canyon. This actually was something that my mom found. My parents had done a rafting trip through the Grand Canyon a long time ago before I was born. And they always wanted to do another one at some point and finally had the opportunity earlier this year and asked if I wanted to come along. So I took all my saved vacation days and spent them in one big go to go out to the Grand Canyon in April and do this 18-day rafting trip. And it was really spectacular. You know, fantastic scenery in the Grand Canyon. We're able to stop as we were going down the river there and do some great side hikes, walking up some of these tributaries, great fun running the rapids, that sort of thing.

tributaries, great fun running the rapids, that sort of thing. But what really captured my interest, what really fascinated me was watching the guides, the rafting guides, row the river, how they used the water and guided the rafts down, not just through the rapids, but also through the slower sections. And by about day nine, I was asking some of the guides, okay, if I wanted to get into this business, what, what do I need to do? So you're part of the great resignation. You could say that. Um, and it certainly, it came up when I, when I was on the trip and thinking about making

this decision, you know, is this something I really want to do? Is it just, you know, we were, had two years of pandemic fatigue by that point. There was the great resignation. I'm also about the right age for a midlife crisis. So is this really something that I should pursue or is this just sort of the, Or is this just sort of a momentary effect of these passing pressures? You know, it's funny. I think these career change decisions, the general thought is that this is something that you dream about in private for years and spend all your time planning towards. and, you know, spend all your time planning towards. And it takes, you know, often a long time for someone to get to that liberation point for a career change.

But it sounds to me for you, I mean, like when you went to this trip, when you left for Arizona, I'm sorry, when you left for the Grand Canyon, did you have any intention that, you know, to look at this as a career change or it was just, was it just a trip with your parents? Oh, absolutely no intention for this to be a career change. Um, and those, those sorts of sudden decisions are very, it would be very uncharacteristic of me to do that. You know, I've always admired folks who sort of at the drop of the hat will do wild stuff. Um, the one that sticks in my mind actually is when I was in grad school, one of the undergrads I was teaching just got back from living in New Zealand for a year, just because that's what she had decided she wanted to do sort of last minute.

And I thought, wow, that's really cool, but that's not me. And then now I've gone and made a decision a lot like that. So with the internal conversation, like the first time your brain says, huh, this would actually be more fun, you know, than metropolitan transportation planning. I mean, what was, you know, the inner voice? We have these conversations in our head all the time. So there's a part of you that says this might be fun. And there's another part of you that doesn't resist it. Or did you immediately like get on board with it? There wasn't much active resistance, but I was almost suspicious of the lack of resistance that there wasn't a voice in my head

saying why I shouldn't be doing this. And it was actually the core values exercise from Mike Schmitz's personal retreat handbook that really helped me figure out why I wasn't feeling any resistance to this decision. Yeah, but knowing you and having read your posts for years, I can totally see how there's a part of you that would be like, hey, wait a second, how come I'm not fighting this? What's wrong here, right? Can you just talk us through maybe the process that you went through with the core values? I'm kind of curious how looking at your core values made you okay with the lack of resistance. So I'd done that core values exercise for every personal retreat I've done, which has sort of been on a semi-quarterly basis for the past three or four years.

And it was definitely helpful in terms of doing my 12-week year type planning. But it really didn't come into its own until I had to make this decision. I had to make this decision. My personal, my core values, I came up with a series of I am statements. That was just sort of the way it evolved out of the exercise and the personal retreat handbook. I am a teacher and a writer. I am a learner and a student. I'm a traveler and an outdoorsman. I am honest, reliable, and kind. And what really helped me figure out why I was so okay with this decision was making the association between those values and the life I was contemplating leading if I made this big change. The traveler and outdoorsman part of that is pretty self-explanatory, but for the other core values, not only was there a lot to learn and be a student for starting out in rafting,

but from what I'd seen on that Grand Canyon trip and then later, is that in the industry, there is a real emphasis on sort of continuing education, on growing your own knowledge, not just of rafting, but also of the natural history and biology, geology, history of the area where you're working. And then the flip side of that is there is a teaching portion of this, teaching the guests, not just rafting, how to get them safely down the river so they don't wind up in the water or otherwise get into trouble, but also giving them some of this knowledge of this context of the Native American history of this region or the geology or the plants and animals. So it really ticked all the boxes for me. And realizing that this

potential new job engaged so much with my core values was really what gave me a lot more self-assurance about making this decision. Well, I know that you would be an excellent teacher and I feel like this is such a natural fit for you. I mean, you're, uh, the people you guide are going to be so fortunate to have you there. Did you think at all about some of the other practicalities of the decision as it was starting to firm up? Like money is a good question. A lot of people ask me, because I just did a switch too, as you know. People are like, well, how could you give up all that income of being a lawyer? And that really was, for me personally, income was a gating issue. I wanted to know that if I

changed careers, I would have enough to pay the bills, but I wasn't like looking to maximize the most dollars. I was looking to as other things as a priority, but I mean, how did, what were the factors that came to your mind as this went from a nutty idea to a plan? The financial aspect was definitely part of this. When I was talking to the river guides, the guides on this Grand Canyon trip, they gave me a lot of good advice, not just on how to get into the industry, but also sort of warts and all of you of working as a river guide. And one of those warts is definitely this is not a really lucrative career by any measure. I'm fortunate enough that I've had this long, fairly white-collar career and I'm in a pretty good situation financially. So I could afford to, like you said, David, not necessarily maximize my earning potential.

It wasn't the – I could get by on considerably less than I'd been making. And also, the other thing with River Guide, it's not a year-round type of deal. You really have to come up with something for the off-season. Sort of the stereotypical River Guide off-season job is ski patrol. I don't ski, so that's not for me. But you could see how that would be, oh, if you're not working on the river during the summer, you can be on the mountain during the winter. There's also some guides who actually go down and do southern hemisphere guiding, guide down in some place like New Zealand or Chile during the off-season. In my case, I'm using some of my, not really the transportation planning

skills, but the geography skills from my grad school days. I've actually got a job this winter working for a company doing some programming for them on modeling locations for carbon capture and storage stuff. But it's definitely, the financial aspects of this were something I had to think about, but they weren't the, certainly weren't the driving factor in deciding whether I'd stick with the old white collar job versus taking this opportunity. Now, the other thing you mentioned was, you know, is this a midlife crisis? Are you comfortable sharing your age? I should have asked you before we started recording.

I'm 45. Okay. So yeah, you're kind of like entering that area. And I've thought a lot about this because I used to always joke with people that, you know, no, I was, I never had a midlife crisis. You know, when I had friends in their forties that were like buying the Porsches or, you know, you know, getting divorced and getting a young wife or what all the weird stuff people do when they hit that midlife crisis. None of that ever happened for me, you know? And I always felt

like for me, it was because I was really enjoying, I think the Max Barkey stuff in particular that was developing for me. But I, now that I'm, I'm, I've got about 10 years on you. I feel like in hindsight, I don't think, I think midlife crisis is the wrong word. I think it's just, you're shedding the sense of invulnerability that you have as a young person and you realizing, Oh, there is an expiration date on this carton of milk here. And, and I think it does give you a better sense and a healthy way.

It gives you a better sense of, well, what am I going to do with my time? I mean, how did you navigate that? Or what were your impressions as you're going through that as a 45 year old man? So for me, I don't know if it's as much the personal sense of an expiration date, but one of the reasons I really did jump on this Grand Canyon prep is it wouldn't have necessarily been the last opportunity for me to go rafting in the Grand Canyon trip is it wouldn't have necessarily been the last opportunity for me to go rafting in the Grand Canyon, but it would probably have been my last chance of doing it with my parents. They're obviously, you know, a generation older than I am and are not spring chickens when it comes to, you know, going down the rapids in a river and doing a bunch of hiking and that sort of thing.

So that was part of the consideration there. And also, in a way, part of it with the career change. There's some things I'm an only child, so I sort of have some responsibilities to my parents that I can't pass off on anyone else. And doing some of these things that would, you know, take me out in the wilderness for weeks on end before they need more of my attention was definitely a consideration for me. You make a decision before you leave the Grand Canyon? I did. I pretty much made up my mind before we got off the river and I sort of made the final decision at the hotel room the night after we had our last day off the river and i sort of made the the final decision uh at the hotel room

the the night after we had our last day on the river so you entered the river a transportation planner and you left it a river guide something like that yeah i love that i love that man i i hate to say that on the show because then people are like, oh, I like what you're saying. I'm going to, you know, become a furniture maker and give up my career. You know, this is something that you have to be careful about. But knowing Chris, I'm sure you went into it with open eyes. But I also, it's so inspirational to hear when people make a move like that. Now, when you got back to civilization, what did you tell people?

that. Now, when you got back to civilization, what did you tell people? So before I even got on the plane back from Arizona, I had signed up for some training for the river guide work. And in order to get where I needed to be to go to that training, I had basically exactly two weeks between when I got back to Kansas city and when I would have to leave. So there was no putting it off. Very first thing I did when I got back, I had to go in and tell my boss, yeah, I'm putting in my two weeks notice here. So it was very much a ripping the bandaid off type of situation. I bet. And that was, it was an interesting conversation. I think my boss was surprised, but supportive. And that was, it was an interesting conversation. I think my boss was surprised but supportive and really went right to thinking about, okay, what do we need Chris to do in the next two weeks?

They were willing to have me do some on and off part-time work for them over the summer. work for them over the summer. So really, rather than concentrating on sort of transition stuff for those two weeks, he really had me working on stuff that I would have been doing while I was on the river and catching up on work and leaving the sort of transition, the documenting all the stuff I'd done and talking to the people who would be taking on my roles. Left that for the part-time work during the summer. It's really eye-opening, I think, when you make a transition like this and you tell your employers, your clients, or whatever that you're moving on, they are very accepting of it. I think in general, I think a lot of us have this impression that we are irreplaceable and it's a little bit of cold water in the face when you realize how replaceable you are. It's like, okay, buddy, that's, it's a little crazy, but go for it.

Now I'm just going to replace you. So, you know, get out of my office. I had the same experience with clients. I felt like I had known the, some of these clients I'd represented over 20 years. I felt like, you know, I was almost a family member and a lot of them have boiled down to, okay, so who else can handle me now? And, um, you know, good luck with your crazy internet thing. And, uh, the, um, it is a little shocking, but I think it's liberating too, for people out there who are holding up because they think that they're irreplaceable in what they're doing. Uh, newsflash, you are not. In my case, the role that I was in,

I had only been in that role for about a year and the previous occupants that had left about 18 months before that and 18 months before that. And it wasn't that this was a bad role. It was just people who are in this position making personal changes. The prior two departures weren't quite as unconventional as mine, but I definitely, between that turnover and the fact that I hadn't been in the role that long, I didn't feel all that irreplaceable. I knew that they could handle it and everybody would move on even without me there. Was there anybody that thought that your decision was crazy? Maybe somebody close to you who was trying to talk you out of this move? Most people were very either excited or supportive or at least neutral. The one set of people who were kind of concerned was actually my parents. And it was less because of the decision that they were afraid of what would happen if I made this big life change, but more just that, like I said earlier, it was really uncharacteristic of me to make a decision this big this suddenly.

And they were a little worried not so much about that I decided this, but that it was so rapid and unusual for me the way I decided. Yeah. And honestly, for people making these transitions, again, with some personal experience of this, you need to consider the motivations of people when they give you resistance and you announce something like this. Try to think where they're coming from. Your parents weren't like that because they don't like you or they don't have faith in you, but it's a concern for you. So don't get bent out of shape when people around you do that. This episode of Focus is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is an all-in-one platform for building your brand, growing your business, or if you just want to set up a site for your next creative project, Squarespace is the

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use the offer code FOCUSED to get 10% off your first purchase and to show your support for the FOCUS podcast. Our thanks to Squarespace for their support of this show and all of Relay FM. So once you made the decision to leave, you didn't just walk out of the office and then jump in a raft and there I'm doing this thing now. What did that process look like? How long did that take? What were the details in this transition for you? So one of the things that the guides on that Grand Canyon trip were real helpful with is sort of telling me what would be involved, what the best route for me making this transition was going to be.

And they really recommended three things. They said, go to a river guide school. So get some training on the river. Some wilderness first responder training. That's first aid training with an emphasis on being sort of not someplace where 911 can get there in 15 minutes. And then swift water rescue training. So getting used to being in the water and rescuing people who maybe get tossed out of a boat or something like that. So the first order of business was to find opportunities to do those

three things and to try and fit it in as short a time as possible because I was sort of burning summer days here. The rafting season doesn't go on that long on most rivers. So if I wanted to get any experience this year, I really had to try and fit this training in as quick as I could. So I managed to find three courses that sort of lined up from about mid-May through mid-June and had me zigzagging all over the West. I did the river guide training in Northern California, Southern Oregon area. Did a great 10-day course there with an organization called ARDA.

Then down to California to do the Wilderness First Responder training and out to Colorado to do the swift water rescue. So it was a very busy month there. Then things slowed way down for me because then it was time to actually find a job working as a river guide. And that turned out to be pretty challenging. The fundamental problem being most guiding jobs really get filled around January or February.

You're really starting behind the curve when you're starting looking for a river guide job in June. year, starting looking for a river guide job in June. I spent about three or four weeks cold emailing and cold calling dozens of companies, finally found an opportunity on the Rogue River up in Southern Oregon, one of the rivers I had done my guide training on, and spent the rest of the summer rafting up there. Mostly day trips. There's a section there near Medford, Oregon that they run three-hour tours on. It's actually a pretty tough section to get started on. On most rivers, rapids are rated from class one through class six. This section has two class fours, which are pretty substantial rapids.

You know, you're going down drops of eight or ten feet on both of these big class fours. And that was intimidating and challenging to be the very first thing I started out doing as a river guide. And I got tossed out of the boat and swam a couple of times, had guests swim, and one time got the raft flipped entirely over, which was a more exciting day than I'd hoped to have that morning. I bet. I bet. Baptism by fire, though, right? Definitely. Yeah. And then in the fall, I had a chance to do a couple of multi-day trips, do some three-day trips down what is called the wild

and scenic section of the Rogue, which is about 40 miles of basically complete wilderness. No real roads or any development alongside the river, just beaches to camp on. There were some lodges out there for fishermen, that sort of thing. But that was a pretty special experience, for fishermen, that sort of thing. But that was a pretty special experience, getting to get into the wilderness like that. And that's definitely more of what I'm looking to do in the future. So I will be back out looking for work again in January, hopefully be able to get a little better start next year and move on with the, with this as my career. Now, how does it feel now that it's becoming a career and no longer a pipe dream, you know, as you're going down the, the, um, the grand Canyon? I mean,

you know, it's, it's very different from idea to reality sometimes. Definitely. And there were there, despite all the guides on that Canyon trip did to sort of give me the, the warts and all of you of, of what what being a river guide was like, there were some cold splashes of water to the face, both metaphorical and literal. But I'm not regretting the decision at all, and I'm hoping this will be a great start to a long and exciting career doing this. Can we talk a little bit about your job search? Because you have, I think, an interesting tool that you used for this. Yeah. So when I was taking these classes, I got basically tons of information. I tend to be a big note taker, and I filled many waterproof notebooks as I was going through these three river guide trainings with lots of information and had to decide someplace to put that. I didn't want this

information to just be trapped in the notebooks. So being the Mac power user in 2022, I ended up with Obsidian and built up a database there. And one of the things that went into that was information about various companies, other, the companies I did my training with, some of the other ones we ran into on the river, that sort of thing. And so when I started the job search, that made it pretty natural to use Obsidian as sort of the organizing place for all my job search information. And like I said, I applied to lots of different places. So I essentially went through every, putting every rafting company I could find in Utah, Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Oregon, Washington, and California into this Obsidian database. I actually set up a data view using the data view plugin that

would give me a table of every single note I had mentioning a rafting company and use that to organize my job search, sort of prioritize them. These are the companies I'd like to work with more and sort of was able to sort based on different characteristics that made them more or less appealing or better or worse prospects in terms of places to work. And basically use that table to work my way down and make these cold calls, cold emails to try and find someone who had a place for me. It was really great in terms of organizing this massive amount of information about all these companies and keeping track of the different contacts I've had with them. Oh,

I emailed this company. I sent in a online application for this other company. I had a phone call with someone at this third company and was able to keep track of everything, keep everything organized as I tried to deal with all these different contacts with different companies. I love this this has got to be the nerdiest approach to a whitewater rafting job search ever but it's great you know it does remind me i think there's a focus angle to this in that like bringing intentionality not just the idea of like hey i want to be a whitewater rafting guide, but how do I use all my geek skills and, you know, the idea focus to, to find a job? I mean, this is like you said, you know, if everybody who wanted to get

this job could get one, there would be a lot more people doing it. It's, it's, it's not a neat, you know, there's a, there's a lot of people that would like to spend their life guiding people down rivers, I would assume. And it reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend who was in the movie business. He came California. He had a pilot that failed. And then he started following Mac Power Users and using the stuff we talk about on there to be more efficient in Hollywood. And it's resulted in a lot of success for him. So I feel like this is Chris right on brand for you. I mean, I think this is,

and I don't think you're going to have a problem getting a job because like you said, you've got a list now of everybody that hires in multiple states. I don't think there's a lot of people doing what you do that have gone to that effort. I'm not willing to tempt fate by saying I won't have a problem getting a job, but I do think I am fairly well situated for my next job search. At the very least, I won't have to start from scratch in terms of contacts. And I can say, oh, I talked to you last

year. Did you have anything open up? That sort of thing. Yeah. And well, I mean, I guess the point is you didn't leave anything on the table. You've done maximum effort on your behalf. You're not going to re if something doesn't work out, you're not going to say, man, if I had just worked a little harder, you know, that's not the problem at this point.

Um, but that is such as a strange miss on the idea of focus. Um, I feel like this is a job that is so great for building focus muscles. because you're going down the river with a group of humans that you want to keep alive. And you have to be paying attention to everything at all times. I mean, literally flow state, right? Flow of the water. That must be refreshing as you've been going through

this training and now doing it a little bit. It's both refreshing and stressful. Um, you're right that, uh, situational awareness is, is really important. Uh, one of the things they teach you in guide school is you always want to be looking, you know, where's the raft ahead of you? How much space do you want with them? The raft behind you? Know how many people are in each raft? How many rafts are ahead and behind you? So if something happens, you can react. One of the more stressful experiences I had during the summer wasn't actually on a hard stretch of river, wasn't on the stretch with those two big class four rapids.

It was a what we call a scenic float on a tamer stretch of river wasn't on the stretch with those two big class four rapids. It was what we call a scenic float on a tamer stretch of river downstream. And because it's tame, we let guests, if they want, take an inflatable kayak so they can paddle themselves down. I did one of those where another guide and I were in rafts, but we didn't actually have any guests in the raft with us. Every single guest wanted their own inflatable kayak, and there were 10 of them. So going down the river here, trying to keep myself behind all the kayaks and the other guide up in front,

so they were sort of sandwiched between us and making sure we kept track of all these 10 different people out there. I got really good at counting to 10 by the time we were done with that trip. Yikes. I mean, that is like herding cats, right? And they're not within your control. So if somebody goes upside down 20 yards from you, there's an amount of time before you can be there to help them. Yep. Do you find yourself, is it the dream of focus that I was thinking, or do you find your

mind wandering while you're out there? I mean, is it, is it as easy as I'm saying, or is it, is it hard? I'd say it depends. There are times when it's really easy to, to keep focus generally, generally when something exciting is happening. Uh, but there are also other times when it's real easy to get distracted or lose your concentration. Most of these rivers are not, they're not just continuous whitewater all the way down. There was, the one trip I've done that's more like that is some of the other guides last summer, and I did a trip down the upper Klamath, which is very long rapids without a lot of space in between them. But most of these rivers are what are called pool drop rivers. So you'll have a rapid and then you'll have a flat pool. And that flat pool could be a mile long. It could

be several miles long. And when you're in those flat pools, among other things, you don't get much help from the current. You're pushing this raft downstream. And some of these rafts, that can be quite a job. Like, the rafts in the Grand Canyon are loaded up over 2,000 pounds. So, you're basically just there working your muscles out, getting a good core workout as you row down the river here. And it's not necessarily a whole lot of mental engagement or stimulation, but you do want to pay attention because you want to try and stay in what little current there is in these flat stretches and take every bit of advantage of the moving water you can get and not just rely on your muscles to get you downstream. And then if you've got guests on the boat, you throw on the added complication of dealing with them and you want to try and talk and be social and maybe teach

them a little about the river. So there's a lot to keep track of and it can be easy to get distracted at points like that. Yeah, actually, what my rafting has always, the rafting I've done has always been like that, where you've got the quiet sections followed by some activity once in a while on one trip i took the guide actually threw me in the river just to be funny when we were in a quiet section and uh i was it's funny watching all the other guides look at each other like i can't believe he just did that to a guest but you know it's fun it's fun i i do think think, though, anything becomes routine, right? You talk to somebody in any kind of dream job, and you talk to them long enough, they're like, yeah, it is a great job. But there are parts of it where you work, you know, where you're earning your money by doing stuff that you wouldn't otherwise want to do.

And then how do you keep focused on that while you're doing it? And then I guess the other question is in one of the big things Mike and I talk a lot about on this show is distractions. And I really feel in the modern world, you know, between social media, computers in your pocket, and there's just all the deck is stacked against you at this point. It is so hard to stay focused with all this stuff going on. Are you getting any relief from that with this career change? That actually has been one of the bigger changes for me, particularly on the Grand Canyon trip and on the trips down the wild and scenic section of the road, those are wilderness. There's no cell service at all out there. So I sort of had an enforced 18-day

social media fast while I was going down the Grand Canyon. And that's you know, probably the longest I've been off the MPU forums since they were started, for instance. Sure. So that was definitely a big change. And it's, you know, in some ways it's hard, but in other ways it's enjoyable. There's obviously plenty of other things that you can concentrate on when you're out in the wild areas like that, that your phone really isn't the best thing you can be spending time on. Yeah. I mean, what kind of insight do you get from that, from being disconnected for 18 days? I mean,

did you come away with it with some surprise knowledge? I don't know that there's anything that surprising. I'd say the biggest thing for me, I have a tendency to be a little bit of a news junkie. And if you remember back to this spring with the situation in Ukraine and other things going on, it was a particularly eventful time. So in a way, it was maybe good for me at that particular time to be disconnected for such a long, consistent stretch and realized that, oh, yeah, the world will still spin even if I'm not around

to check the news websites. So we're talking about changes and transitions. I'm curious, Chris, one of the reasons that I reached out to you initially was this conversation that was happening in the Mac Power Users forums about how people are using productivity tools and focus tools and applying them to different job situations. And I'm kind

of curious, how have your productivity tools or methods, the way that you focus, how has that changed during this transition from the day desk job to the river guide in addition to the things that we've already discussed with the distractions and things like that? So I'd say the two biggest changes have been how I approach task management and then using Obsidian. Starting with the task management, I, in the old day job, had a, I could just say, pretty standard for a focused listener type of GTD system. I used a very GTD type methodology, used the Things app to record all my tasks and organize into projects, did some time blocking in my calendar.

I was a big time blocker. If you look back in my calendar, there is a multi-year stretch where every single day has a bunch of calendar appointments in it for my time blocking. And then you have a list of most important tasks I had written down on an index card every day to sort of keep myself

focused on what I was intending to do. That all kind of went out the window when I decided to do this career change. You know, there's the old Einstein quote, everything should be as simple as possible, but no simpler. but no simpler. And suddenly I was in a situation where not only was my old system much more complex than I needed it to be, but it was to the point that that complexity really would have been detrimental. And it really happened even before I got out of the old job. For those last two weeks there, after I gave notice while I was still working full time, I actually threw my things database completely out the window and did everything on just a list of tasks. Just,

okay, these are the things I absolutely have to get done in these next two weeks before I head off. The things I need to get done so I don't leave my employer in a bad spot. And that was just basically working down this really short list, checking things off as I got them done. As I got more into the summer, really that Obsidian DataView I talked about when I was doing my job search became my task list. There was nothing more important than getting contacts with these potential employers and working that and trying to get contact with as many of them as possible. And then once I got the job and headed out to Oregon, I was really able to simplify even more. Actually, what few tasks I had that weren't just day-to-day things tended to get

shoved into the Do app, just because the D-U-E Do app, just because that's what I was using for daily reminders. And I didn't really feel the need to add a second system for the non-everyday stuff. I've sort of, now that I'm off the river for the year, I've sort of maybe getting to the point where that kind of system is inadequate. Actually, for this off-season programming job, for the work tasks, GitHub has kind of become my task manager since that's where they do their issue tracking. So for the programming-related tasks, that's where I tend to find those. I have been noticing both on the personal side and on the work but non-programming-related sides, some stuff is slipping through the cracks a little bit so

i'm thinking i may need to uh step up my task management game a little bit i may need to ramp that complexity back up you know as simple as possible but no simpler i think i may be getting down to the but no simpler part of that gotcha i'm interested what uh what the github stuff, how are you using that as a, as a task list? I know this is a little bit technical, but I'm curious. So it's their like bug tracking system, you know, GitHub, in addition to being source control, they have all this other infrastructure that they've built to help, you know, software companies. And in this case, you know, the, the people who I'm working for just put issues in there, oh, we want you to implement this function or fix this bug, that sort of thing. And they get

assigned to me and I can look at that and, okay, these are the big things I need to be working on today or this week. This episode of the Focus Podcast is brought to you by ExpressVPN. Go to expressvpn.com slash focus for high speed, secure and anonymous VPN services and get an extra three months for free. You've probably heard by now that you should be using a VPN when you connect to the Internet. But adding an extra step to anything you do every day can just sound like a hassle. But adding an extra step to anything you do every day can just sound like a hassle. Well, if you knew how easy it is to protect your connection with ExpressVPN, you'd be doing it already.

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and you can spoof your location so you can have access to content available outside your region. No wonder it's been called the best VPN by CNET. Right now, go to expressvpn.com slash focus and you can get an extra three months of ExpressVPN for free. That's expressvpn.com slash focus to get that extra three months of ExpressVPN and show your support for the show. ExpressVPN.com slash focused. Our thanks to the folks at ExpressVPN for their support of the Focus podcast and all of RelayFM. Well, you've talked about using Obsidian for your job search, but has it found its way into other pieces of your new career?

So Obsidian has never been the be-all, end-all, everything bucket for me the way it is for some folks. I tend to use it for particular applications. The job search was one of them. I've also used it for apartment hunting, for instance, use an obsidian data view to organize lists of potential apartments when I moved most recently. But really where I dove into it is organizing all this information that I learned during the river guide training. I am an inveterate note taker. One of the instructors in my guide training took the one picture that basically encapsulates that to me,

and it's a close-up of my hands with a notebook in them. So like I mentioned earlier, I filled several waterproof notebooks with data there, and I really decided those needed to live someplace else and that Obsidian was the place for that. So I really found I got a lot of benefit out of not just taking those notes, but again, rewriting, typing all of them into Obsidian and rewriting them. And then again, from organizing them, making links between different notes, the maps of content. Even though, obviously, I'm not going to be able to take

my Obsidian database on the river with me, I think in terms of burning this knowledge into my brain, the chance to not just take these notes, but keep revisiting them in the process of building and curating this obsidian vault has been really helpful. Of course, now the real test of this is going to be next year

in May when I'm getting back on the water after being off for six months. If after just reviewing what I've stored in obsidian, I'm still going to be able to remember this stuff, despite that long, long gap between actually doing any rafting. And I'm sure, you know, it's a living document and it's going to evolve next season as well. But just to get nerdy on this a little bit, obviously, like you said, you're not carrying a laptop or something in the raft. Hey guys, hold on a second. I need to like, you know, recharge, right? Instead, you're taking notes notes on paper and what are you just updating the obsidian database when you get back to, you know, your room or yes. What's the mechanics of it? So when I get off the river, I'll take the, take, get done with the class or done with that

particular day's trip. I'll take the notebook and go through. And really, the notes are not intended to be absolutely comprehensive. They're more bullet points to sort of tweak something in my mind, to get me to remember what had happened, what I'd learned. And then I can put a fuller, more complete, better formed explanation of the particular learning point into Obsidian. That's why it's not just, you know, there's the big debate about should you take notes by hand or type them. And obviously on the river, you don't really have a choice. But the idea that the format forces you to revisit this and go through it again, I think, is the big benefit. Yeah, and then I would assume you review the Obsidian database before heading out the door on your next trip down that river.

That's the idea, anyway. Like I said, the real test of that will be next year when there'll have been this long break between the different trips. Chris, are you a journaler? I am. I've done journaling both on paper. I used the Cortex notebook for that. But these days, I'm mostly doing it in day one. Really have gone all digital, in part just because this summer that was much easier

than uh toting my uh my hard copy notebooks out to oregon with me well i hope you did a lot of journaling with this transition you know i i did the same thing with mine i wish i had done more because i'm starting now to hit a year you know since i made the decision and started taking steps so i'm starting to see those entries come up again in my reviews and, uh, I wish I had written more at the time, but yeah, this is a, this is a key opportunity to kind of like get in your own head later, but I'm with you on day one. I use day one too. I'm getting better about writing down what happened. Uh, sort of writing down how I feel about it is still a work in progress for me. Sure. You and me both, brother.

I want to go back real quick and get nerdy about the note-taking here, because we were talking a little bit about the real value of these notes that you're taking, Chris, that are going to be realized a year from now or when you go back. going to be realized a year from now or when you go back? Is that kind of the goal with this before I go on from there? Is that why you're transferring these things to Obsidian so you have a record of them that you can go back and look at them later and they'll provide future value for you? I think that's half of it. In addition to sort of the long-term storage aspect, the other part of this for me is in the moment, the process of going through these and retyping them in Obsidian also helps get them into my long-term memory. It just helps me really engrave this stuff in my mind so that even when I don't have the Obsidian database with me, some of this, more of this stuff will stick with me than if I just heard it or saw it only once.

Sure, that makes sense. But I think the real thing I wanted to key in on was that the traditional approach to note-taking, I feel, is I better capture this, put it in the archive, so that if the question comes up again, I can go back and reference this and look it up, essentially. But I've kind of leaned away from that in recent history and started writing notes with the intention of going back and looking at them,

kind of writing them for future me. And I feel that completely changes the way that you take the notes. It's more what's going to be important in the future instead of a better jot this stuff down just in case. And I'm kind of curious what your thoughts are on that and is that the approach that you're taking as you're writing these analog and then transferring them to Obsidian later? I had barely thought of that way, but that definitely resonates with me. In some ways, I'm writing an instruction manual for me to read in the future is sort of how I'm thinking about

this. That's a great way to put it. The term for this that I picked up from Nick Milo, which I really like, is note making. It's almost like a craft. So this isn't intended to be a note that I capture and it's done and I can go back and reference it if I need it later. But it's a living document and it's going to get better over time. And I would imagine with your use case specifically, you go down the river, you take your notes, you put them in Obsidian, you review those the next time you go down that river or do that trip, and then you take more notes and you transfer those to that same note. You're not just creating something totally separate.

You're building on a base of knowledge that you've already created. Oh, definitely. And for example, I've been down the wild and scenic section of the Rogue three times now. And my note for that section has definitely grown and gotten more detailed after each trip. It's definitely a creative process where the note gets deeper and more detailed and stuff that isn't as important gets edited out or condensed over time as I revisit it after subsequent trips. As you've been practicing this, how have you noticed your capture process changing? Because I know for myself, once I started making this shift from note-taking to note-making, for lack of a better term, it changed the types of things that I would try to capture. I got a lot, I felt a lot more free, I guess, to capture the things that really stood out to me and less pressure to capture the things that, oh, this might be important later. I think for me, it's not quite that sort of distinction. It's, I'm not going to say I'm mainly capturing things that stand out to me. I'm capturing things that I think will be most important for me to know in the future. So it's

not sort of a, this stands out to me versus I just, I'll put this down because I might need it just in case. It's more of thinking about future me. The next time I see this river, the next time I have to do this particular task, what are the most important things, the most vital things that I'm going to need to know in the future about this subject? And I'm curious, since you're on a raft and you occasionally get thrown into the water, what are the tools that you use to capture the analog stuff when you are actually on the river before you transfer it to Obsidian? So I use write-in-the-rain notebooks. Great technology, obviously, if you're on the river where you may wind up in the water, but even if you're just outdoors and might get rained on or that sort of thing, they make this great waterproof paper. You can write on them with pencils or many types of pens, but I'm actually using the pens that they make. They make an ink that will, this sort of plasticky paper will take really well. That's definitely been a lifesaver in terms of dealing with the conditions on the river and keeping these important notes from getting messed up. Chris, separate from, you know, going out into the world and bringing people down rivers, which by the way, if anybody listening has never done it,

make time to do a river trip like this. It is so fun. Um, the, uh, and people like Chris make it safe and, you know, pick a river based on your experience. Obviously don't pick a crazy one for your first trip, but, uh, I, I have many fond memories with my kids of going down these river trips and just a lot of good times together. I, I, I'm going to just make a pitch for the river rafting industry right there. But anyway, Chris isn't saying anything, but I think he'd agree with me. I definitely agree. I was debating asking whether you want to tell which rivers you've been on. I've done several in Northern California.

The last one I did was the Truckee River, but I've done several in Northern California. The last one I did was the Truckee River. Um, but I've done several, uh, but I always do them in Northern California because, uh, that is a one day drive from my house and it is, they have beautiful trees up there, you know, the conifers and the redwoods and it's just, you know, Southern California is very scrubby. It's, it's basically a desert. Um, but when you get to Northern California, it's gorgeous up there and the smells and the, you know, just a wonderful thing to go on. And there's a lot of calm rivers up there. You know, I, I think the most extreme I've done is probably a level two or three. And that was extreme to me. It felt pretty exciting as we

were going through those rapids, but the, uh, a four. But either way, it's really fun. And that's totally unrelated to the topic of today's show. But I've been sitting on that all day, and I wanted to say it. And if I ever do it again, I'm going to go where, Chris, when you get saddled, let me know. I feel like I need to go do a river with you at some point. But either way, one of the other things you've done, Chris, is I know you've been involved with several mastermind groups.

There are some that grew out of the Mac Power Users forums. Mike and I, this topic comes up once in a while, but Mike and I have kind of a skewed view of masterminds because we're precious creators and we get in these groups with other creators. It's not the same as when I was a lawyer and I had friends that would get masterminds where it would be a lawyer and an accountant and different business people. I guess what I'm saying is there's a lot of flavors of this, and I'd like to hear your experience as someone who doesn't do what Mike and I do, but you also actively contribute and join in some of these masterminds. Yeah, so really it's just the one masterminds group. It formed out of some folks on the MPU

forum, including Uji McGuire, a former MacPower users guest, and a couple of others. And it has been really valuable and really useful for me. Definitely, they were very supportive during this big transition for me. But even before that, I think it was real helpful, both in, you know, we're all a bunch of nerdy folks on this group. So talking about some of the things that some of the topics that you might talk about on focused or Mac power users in terms of workflows and that sort of thing. But also just particularly these past couple of years, it's been valuable to have another venue for social interaction.

You know, just having some folks who are friends and supporters who you can bounce ideas off of, you can get their opinions on things, get feedback on something you're thinking about doing. Though, ironically, I did not get their feedback on this big career change decision. I ended up making that decision before I got back to another masterminds meeting. So they sort of got a, a fait accompli when I talked about it with them, but they were very, very supportive. Um, uh, one comment that stuck with me is Uji said that, uh, after I made this decision, I seemed a lot more animated in our, uh, in our weekly meetings. Interesting. Yeah. Well, there's like being in a group like this,

they get to know you. And in addition to being supportive, they also can help you with accountability. And I do think that there's really something to that. Yeah, I like to say this is my nerds anonymous group. That's great. So the group that you're a part of, in addition to being nerds, what is the thing that makes that group click? What makes it work? What is the thing that allows it to be valuable for you? That's actually a pretty difficult question. I think in some ways it's the mix of people, the mix of different perspectives, people who are sort of coming at things from different angles than I would come at them.

I think it's always useful to get those perspectives. And the folks in this particular group are really good at bringing up stuff that I wouldn't necessarily have thought of or maybe taking a little different point of view on it in a way that's been really helpful to me. And I hope that I've been able to provide that same sort of perspective to them. Talk us through the process here. to provide that same sort of perspective to them. Talk us through the process here. So if someone is listening to this and they're like, I don't really understand what this mastermind thing is, but I'm interested in setting one up for myself.

What does a typical meeting look like? What are the sort of interactions in addition to you sharing? I'm thinking about making this big life switch and everybody supports you. Like what does a mastermind do? So we meet every week. We do it online via Zoom. We're pretty well spread out. We actually have all four continental U.S. time zones covered at the moment. So we run the gamut from Eastern to Pacific. We'll meet once a week via Zoom, usually at the same time that we can move it around if people have conflicts. And usually after, you know, there's the usual sort of chatter at the beginning. But we rotate through. Everybody has a chance to spend five or ten minutes talking about whatever they want, what they've been doing, some problem or question they've been pondering.

whatever they want, what they've been doing, some problem or question they've been pondering, whatever's on their mind or that they would like some help with. And then one person gets a longer time slot, theoretically 20 minutes, though it varies a lot, to have a more in-depth discussion, to talk about some problem they're having, something like that. to talk about some problem they're having, something like that. And that rotates through every week. So we each get a crack at that once a month or so. And it's usually, in some ways, it's a lot like a podcast. There's a chance for people to sort of have their bit of free-flowing monologue and then a bit of back and forth if other folks have comments or ideas to

fill in there. Not a real sort of tight format, but enough to make sure everybody participates and everybody gets a chance to get some feedback and also sort of pushes everyone to participate, that no one can just be a lurker in this group. You're going to have your time on center stage whether you want it or not, which honestly for me is probably a helpful thing. Exactly. That's the thing. When I've talked to people about mastermind groups, I basically say the only requirement here is a growth mindset. I think there maybe is a stigma. You have to achieve a certain level of professionalism. Maybe it's just that term mastermind that puts people off. But yeah, essentially it's just a group of friends who

are trying to help each other grow and reach their full potential. And that can be in a specific industry or niche, but it doesn't have to be. It could be just four people in totally different walks of life, totally different time zones who are committed to showing up and receiving and offering feedback. It doesn't have to be super complicated. And I'd say to people who are resisting this, I get you, right? You know, like I am, uh, when you put me in front of a crowd, I'm an extrovert. Like I have no problem, you know, doing jungle cruise spiels to guests at Disneyland or talking to a jury or whatever. But when you put me with like two or three people, I am an introvert. It is really hard for me to like talk in a small group i'm not really sure why but

that's just me so i'd always resisted this whole idea of a mastermind in fact after we talked about it on this show i think a year or two went by without me joining him i know chris's group was together way before i got in one and the only reason i ever did it was because mike eventually called me and said we got to do something you know mine's falling apart and you know we came up with a solution with which is a group of creators because i felt like that's what would make sense for me but the um but it's been very beneficial and and uh the very quickly a good mastermind group becomes a dear group of friends as well. And I would assume that's probably been your experience as well. But I mean, the people in mind, I'll be

there for them whenever they need. And that is kind of special. But it also has a huge benefit to you if you're an introvert to force you to like talk to a small group and give you someone that can hold you accountable. And we talked about that in relation to the group Mike and I are in where people do similar businesses and bring some expertise to each other. But I think even in Chris's situation where you've got a job that, you know, I would imagine there were no other planners in your group, but at the same time, they could give you good advice about your career as you were navigating those waters. No other planners, but they were definitely able to give me a lot of support and to be very good friends. I'm definitely feeling a lot of kinship

with you there, David. I'm happy to get up and talk in front of a class or a conference, a public meeting or a raft full of people for that matter. But put me at the proverbial cocktail party and I'm going to be a wallflower. So that was definitely helpful having the masterminds group to force some of that social interaction. Yeah. The other thing I would say to people that are hesitant to join one, and I mentioned earlier, like an example where there's a lawyer and an accountant and a business guy, those can be excellent masterminds when they all are there to help each other get better at whatever it is they do. But in a lot of times in kind of the business world, people call it a mastermind, but what it really is, is a referral group where they're looking to refer business to each other.

And that is not what I'm talking about. And if you've tried that and been unhappy with that, this isn't what I'm talking about. Look for a group of people that want to support each other, not with referrals, but with just kinship and critical advice of each other, not with referrals, but with just, you know, kinship and critical advice of each other. Even, you know, because I'm such an introvert with these things, even though I'm, this is a secret, Mike, even though you are in, and I are in one together, some days when we have it on the calendar, I'm like, oh man, can I, you know, do I have it in me today to talk to these people? And it's not that I don't love these people. It's just that sometimes that's not easy for me.

But then I look at all the great benefits and the friendships I made. But also, it was my mastermind group that really gave me the final kick out of one career and into another. And it may have happened if I wasn't in that group, but it may not have as well. That is very true. I think the resistance that you have occasionally, that is always going to be there. I think that's an important point to unpack as we're talking about masterminds. There will be times when you just don't feel like going. And those are probably the times that you need to go the most.

Because the reason that you don't want to go is that things maybe aren't clicking in your life. And you don't want to get up in front of people and admit that you're struggling. But that's the whole point of the group is being open and honest, giving more than you take. And I don't know about you, David, but every single time I have felt that, I walk out of those meetings thinking, oh, I am so glad that I went. Sure. Yeah. True.

Definitely. By the way, if people are interested in this, I did put together a blog post a while ago on just some things to consider as you were to set up your own mastermind group. And all you really need to do is find a few people who are willing to make a commitment. And I would argue that they've got to have a growth mindset. That's the one thing. You don't have to share an industry. You don't have to share a demographic. You don't have to share a location.

You know, technology makes this easy. And the forums would be a great place to go, people who are listening to this. But anywhere where you find your tribe, you know, just throw it out there. And forums would be a great place to go, people who are listening to this. But anywhere where you find your tribe, just throw it out there. Be like, hey, anyone want to meet regularly to talk through what we're struggling with and help brainstorm ideas so that we can all grow together? You do it a couple of times and you'll get some momentum. The other thing I would add is if you're starting one up, be clear. They're expected to be there an hour a week and, or whatever time you pick, but I think it needs to

be almost weekly. And, um, and we actually, when Mike and I started one, uh, there was one person who wanted to join, but when I told him, Hey, every week for an hour, it's an expectation. It's not like when you can make it. If this is going to work, you have to be there. And he said, you know, now that I think about it, that's just too much. I don't have the time, which I totally respect. But it's good that he decided that early. But be clear with the people that you want to do it with,

because I think it really loses its value if it's like a once-a-month thing. Yeah, agreed. The more regular the check-ins, the better. Any other advice you would give people regarding mastermind groups? Anything specific that you notice, Chris, that makes them click or makes them struggle? The one thing I would say is make sure you have enough people and be prepared if people's life circumstances change and the group membership has to change. We started out with only three and one had to drop out after about a year. So we recruited two more. But if we hadn't been able to get more folks, I think losing one of three probably would

have killed the group. I think losing one of three probably would have killed the group. So I think probably four or more would be good. And just be prepared because sometimes people's life circumstances are going to change and they may not be able to continue participating. So have a plan for that. Yeah, and we had the same experience. We started with five and we increased it to six, but we were very, I mean, it was, it took a lot of discussion to increase it.

Because I think once you get much above six, then there's not enough time to really let everybody have their say. So you got to like get that magic sweet spot with a group of three. If one person gets sick, then suddenly it's not a mastermind group. It's a mastermind couple, which is probably not big enough. Yeah, you need to have the space for everyone to contribute. And if you get to the point where you feel like people are not able to do that, that's when you know you have too many.

Well, Chris, I am so just happy to hear your journey and how well it's going for you. I've been seeing the pictures of you, but I hadn't heard the whole story straight from you. And it sounds to me like you are really having a great time with this move. Oh, I definitely am, David. Well, we appreciate you sharing the story with us. One thing that stands out for me is the idea of engineering your life or your career in a way that lets you stay focused because it allows you to avoid a lot of the technological stuff that we all carry around with us that gets in the way of focus. And one of the thoughts I have written down as we've been sitting here talking today is, why can't I pretend I'm on the river?

And what I mean by that is, what if I just said, you know what, for the next two days, I'm going to leave my phone next to my bed and just not carry it around during the day and just pretend that I'm off the grid? And how would that affect my work and my ability to remain focused? And what can I learn from that? So I think you've inspired me to try a few experiments here, my friend. Yeah, I'll say when I was doing my quarterly personal retreats off-site in the pre-pandemic era, I deliberately, even if I wasn't going someplace that was out of cell range, I would turn everything to airplane mode for those couple of days

and found that was really helpful. So even if you're not on the river, it can be helpful to enforce that, if only occasionally. Yeah. And we can all pretend we're on the river, right? Maybe some days more than others. Either way, we are the Focus Podcast. You can find us at relay.fm slash focused.

Chris, is there anywhere people should go to keep up with what you're up to these days? You can find my adventures on the river and in the outdoors at grandadventure.blog. And I hang out on the MPO forums every so often. Yeah. It's harder to see you now because sometimes you are literally on the MPU forums every so often. Yeah. It's harder to see you now because sometimes you are literally on the river, but it is great, all the contributions you make. Chris is one of my favorite contributors to the MPU forums

where there's also a special room just for the Focus podcast and a really nice group of people in there, so go check that out. We want to thank our sponsors this week. That's our friends over at Squarespace and ExpressVPN. And we'll see you next time.