Focused - 192: Flow State

Episode Date: December 5, 2023

Welcome to Focused, a productivity podcast about more than just cranking widgets. I'm David Sparks and joined by the esteemed Mike Schmitz. Hey, Mike. Hey, David. How's it going? I am doing well, and we have a fun topic for you today. We've been talking about flow state for a while, and we thought, hey, let's just do a show on it. So we're doing that. You know, one of the reasons why I didn't want to do a show on Floset is because I'll sound even more hippie than I normally do. But also, I am terrified by pronouncing Mihaly's last name. Well, let me get it.

I'll make the mistake right away at the beginning here mihali cheek sent mihali i think that's how you pronounce it i know some people say it mihi cheek sent mihi i've watched many different videos and versions of people trying to pronounce this name but this is kind of the the godfather of flow and uh we'll just call him mihali uh how about that yeah all right well just to dive into it so uh flow is uh well i i guess how are we going to define flow mike well i'm going to define it the way that mihali defines it he's actually got a a book that was written on flow but really the genesis of this i think is a whole bunch of lectures and talks that he'd given on the the topic previously but i do recommend that book

if you want a starting point to dig deeper into this concept but how he defines it in the the book is optimized experience and i like that because I feel like that optimized experience or optimal experience is another version of that. That can apply to a lot of different arenas. And when people who are listening to a podcast called Focused typically think of flow, they probably think of it in a work context when they were really engaged with something that they were creating maybe and you kind of lost lost track of of time and you were just so absorbed in the thing that you were doing but the truth is that you can apply that a lot of different ways yeah and i think that moment that thing you just said about losing track of time to me that is a key indicator

that you're in flow right right? When you sit down to do a thing and you look up and three hours have gone by and you were lost in it. People have said, I've heard people say, you know, are you in the zone? That's, I think, another kind of way people refer to this rather nebulous, this concept. And Mahali didn't invent it you know this is something that i think has always been inherent in humankind but it's something that he kind of identified and studied and gives us some way points and and leading indicators and ways to understand it more because i think the flow state or flow or the zone or whatever you call it is something that's quite difficult to do in the modern world. It is hard to do and then it also

is kind of contradictory to what we think we want. So kind of coupled with this whole idea of flow and the research behind it is the idea of what makes up a life worth living, what is a fulfilling life, and it kind of can all be traced back to this idea of happiness. And on page two of the flow book, Mihaly talks about how happiness is not something that happens, it's a condition that must be prepared for, cultivated, and defended privately by each person. Now the thing that ends up making us happy is not the things that are easy or the things that feel good. And that's where flow comes in. We're kind of wired to do hard things. And when we do those things and we can do them well,

we get satisfaction from a job well done. And flow is the state that we find ourselves in that allows us to do those things. Yeah, there's a Chinese concept, wu wei, effortless action. I feel like that is the flow. That's a thousands-year-old version of the flow. But to start with the payoff on this show, I mean, I guess the question is somebody's listening, well, why should I care about this flow? Well, I feel like the flow is a wonderful state of being. I mean, I was talking about hippiness at the beginning of the show, but I was thinking about it recently. It's like, I think I'm my most human when I'm in the flow. I feel like I'm least likely to have that inner voice sounding off when I'm in the flow. I'm least likely to have my brain

get in the way when I'm in the flow. When you're in the flow, time stops and you're completely engaged with what you're doing. And that is, in a sense, like a drug high, not in a drug high that you would get some kind of, um, you know, altered, you know, experience that drugs can give you. It's more of a drug high in that it's just such a great feeling of being in it. And when you finish it, you kind of wish you could go back into it, right? Yeah, and it feels good. And ultimately, that's kind of the basis that Mihaly uses in the book is he talks about how flow is important if you want to have a happy life. And he kind of frames it as enjoyment in one section of the book. and he talks about the eight components of enjoyment, which these are probably worth going through real quickly because these you'll recognize where focus fits with flow

as we talk through these. So first it occurs when we confront the tasks that we can complete. We must be able to concentrate on what we're doing. The task has clear goals. The task provides immediate feedback. And then number five, it removes awareness and frustrations of everyday life because you're so focused on the thing that's in front of you.

It allows people to exercise a sense of control over their actions. The sense of self disappears, but appears stronger afterwards. And the sense of duration of time is altered. And focus is the tool that can help you to get into and stay in that flow state. Because if you think about all of the things that I just listed there, a ding from a message coming into your email inbox, that's enough to completely yank you out of that flow. And it's really frustrating when that happens. So by practicing a lot of the things that we've talked about on this show, and really the case for why focus is so important is ultimately it's the thing that's going to allow us to get into that flow state. And ultimately, that's going to lead to a happier existence. And part of that is identifying

where the things that you're engaging with are in alignment with your vision and your values, and they have meaning and purpose. I mean, those things can also help you get into the state of flow as well. But focus specifically is the thing that can eliminate the distractions and the things that will pop up, that could have been controlled. You can't block out every potential interruption, but if you are trying to protect your focus, that can go a long way towards you protecting that state of flow once you're able to get there, and then you're able to feel more satisfaction from a job well done on the other side. It is really something that you should aspire toward. In fact, I think one of the things I notice is that I naturally lend towards activities that lead to flow.

And I think the distinction you made earlier, this is not just a work thing, it's a whole life thing. I would much rather goof off in the wood shop in the evening than watch TV. And the reason is, I find, and the specific way I do woodworking is the most inefficient way you could do it. I largely do it with old fashioned hand tools, but they make it super easy to get into flow because you have

to be completely engaged. You've got this surgically sharp thing in your hands and it takes a high degree of concentration and you sit there and you do it and time just kind of disappears. It's so much more satisfying than watching the bachelor, you know? And you do it and time just kind of disappears. It's so much more satisfying than watching The Bachelor, you know? And so I think one of the thoughts I had kind of leading today's show is subconsciously, once you start to get an appreciation for a flow, whether even you ever heard of it or not, but just the experience of it, how often do you start picking things to pursue that get you that

flow state just because it gets you that flow state? Yeah, one of the things that we talk about in the life theme cohort is these moments of impact, I call them, but they're the moments in your life where you really came alive. And most of the moments that people identify are the things that were the result of a flow state. And that flow state was triggered by them doing something that they didn't really think they could do. It was kind of just beyond their current capabilities. And they got so absorbed in trying to figure out how to do it

that that's that triggered the the flow state and then afterwards they're kind of shocked and amazed that they were able to to do the thing and that's kind of what Mihaly is talking about with all those different steps but kind of also a supplementary idea to this is if you are seeking out those things that are a little bit beyond your ability, that's going to force you to grow. So personal development and personal growth, I feel, are also very much tied to this idea of the flow state. And if you have that growth mindset, you're probably more naturally engaging with the types of activities that can trigger flow. naturally engaging with the types of activities that can trigger flow. And I want to get into that question of triggering flow and how do we do that. But before I do, I want to talk about

why this is more relevant now than ever in human history. Because I feel like in the modern world, flow is a much more difficult thing to obtain than it was in the you know hundreds of years ago like you think back like people could read a book back then and they never had twitter right or they could go out into the wilderness and it was a much more natural life it wasn't so tied into technology and it was much more tied to the changing of the seasons, the cycle of the earth, the cycle of the sun and the moon. And I think flow state is an outgrowth of some of that. I told you I'm going to be heavy today, guys, so just bear with me. But I do think we've got this cornucopia of interruption heading at us and digital distractions and digital delights. I mean, it's

fun to look at videos of puppies, but at the same time, all that stuff gets in the way of obtaining flow state. So I think it's a much more rare occurrence now just because the conditions are hostile toward it. You think I'm off my rocker here? No, no, you're not at all. And the flow state really has little to do with how we would typically value the activity because a lot of the analog things that you were talking about, the things that are inefficient, those are the things that can trigger the flow state. When you're talking about what does flow state look like, I get the picture of you had told me

about the YouTube Japanese hand crafter guy who is doing the plane. And then at the end of the hour long video or whatever, he just kind of looks up and smiles at the camera. That's flow state. You can apply this to anything, but I think analog things specifically are very much in alignment with just the conditions that create a flow state. Thinking back to what Chris Bailey said in How to Calm Your Mind, if you want

something to be meaningful, do it analog. If you want something to be efficient. Use digital tools. And I think analog just kind of forces you to be fully absorbed in the thing that you are doing. And we've got a whole bunch of tools like the Ugmonk cards and things like that. It seems like there's a whole movement around pushing back against the digital efficiency of the task managers and the planners and all that kind of stuff. We realize that the real thing that is limiting us is not our technology, it's the gray matter between our ears. And using tools that can kind of just put up some boundaries or some blockers for these digital distractions which are popping up all over the place. I mean, we've got not just the phones and the computers, but the watches, the pins,

like you name it, internet connected everything. Everything has a potential to interrupt us and disrupt that flow. And the argument I want to make here, I'm fully embracing David's hippie mode on this episode. If people don't like it, they can blame me because I'm the one who suggested this topic. But this is really important. And it's something that I think the culture just kind of naturally is wired to work against. So this is something just like focus that right now we find ourselves really having to fight for. Okay, so I had an experience last night that really informs this idea.

I was in the woodshop last night and I was cutting joinery, which is, it's very precise work because you want all the pieces of wood to fit together right. It's hand saws, chisels. It's, you know, it's very hand intensive. And I wasn't feeling it.

And I was thinking about us recording this today. And I'm like, how come I'm not in flow state right now at this moment? And I immediately realized it's because of Napoleon. You know, this movie, Napoleon just came out and my kids are asking me, well, you want to go see it? I'm like,'s because of Napoleon. You know, this movie Napoleon just came out. And my kids are asking me, well, you want to go see it? I'm like, I'm not sure. You know, I don't go to see many movies.

I'm really boring. I said, well, you know, I'm going to watch some YouTube historical stuff on Napoleon and get a better idea of his life. I feel like I don't know enough about him. So while I was out there working, I have an old TV out there with an old Apple TV plugged into it. And I had a YouTube video playing about Napoleon's battles. And I realized immediately, I am multitasking. I am listening to the stuff about Napoleon. I'm trying to cut these joints. I'm not doing either one very well. I turned off the TV and then two hours disappeared and the

joints got done right. And I woke up this morning thinking this weekend I'm taking the TV out of the garage because that is definitely a way to torpedo your flow is to throw unnecessary media into the mix. Yeah. it's kind of shocking that something that simple, although you could argue that's kind of drastic too, but something like that single decision could be enough for you to never experience that flow state or to experience it every single day. But I do think that that is the power of the choices that are before us. And it's why things like the light phone not only exist, but they also have a solid following. The light phone, by the way, we've talked about that before, so we don't have to go too far down this rabbit hole, but I got that my my son for his first cell phone but truth be told i'm looking at it for myself because i recognize

the value of being in the flow state and i also recognize that it's not as simple as just turning on do not disturb on my iphone the fact that it is there within my an arm's reach all the time that does have an impact even if I don't pull it out and look at it, it's almost like there's a siren song that's playing the entire time that it's within my grasp. The more we can put up these intentional boundaries and create intentional friction so that when we are focused on something and engaged with something, can follow through to the completion of the activity,

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All right, Mike. So I think we've talked about why it's desirable and why we live in a hostile environment for flow state. How do we get there despite that? You can't just like manufacture flow. It's one of those things that you kind of have to coax it out. All you can really do is provide the right conditions. But that being said, there are some things that we can do to create the right conditions. So in the book by Mihaly, there's a whole section on the conditions of flow. And there's a visual where you've got the x and y axis here and on the y axis you have the challenges so on the bottom end of that it's a low challenge and on the top end it's a high challenge and then on the x axis so going from left to right you've got skills where on the left it's low and

on the right it's high and there's you look at this visual, there's something that goes from the lower left corner up to the upper right corner, which he calls the channel of flow. That is the place where we want to be. And really the challenge is higher than the skills, then that creates above that flow channel, it's all shaded in, that creates anxiety. But if our skills are high and the challenge is low, then it's kind of below that float channel on the right side, then that creates boredom. So there are some things that we just have to do. And I would argue that a good strategy for doing those tasks that are kind of boring is to batch them. And then there are some things that are beyond our ability, and those can be stressful. But I would argue the correct approach with that is to, well, I'm going to sit down and I'm going to figure this out.

Maybe this isn't something that I'm going to be doing as part of my day-to-day work as I'm planning my day, but this is one of those things that I know I need to eventually just figure this out. but what we should be doing is we should be looking for the things that are in that flow channel where I would argue that our skills are just below what is required because that feels approachable. It feels like we have what it takes to complete this thing, but if it's just beyond our abilities, then what it causes us to do is get just a little bit outside of our comfort zone, and that's what really causes us to do is get just a little bit outside of our comfort zone. And that's what really causes us to grow. And when we grow, that's when we experience flow. If we just keep growing, we will keep experiencing the flow state, how he talks about in this chapter. But the bottom line is that when you look at this, you can't stay doing the same thing very long because your skills will develop and you'll get bored or it's just going to keep getting harder and it's going to be stressful.

it's not, there's no ability to hit the flow state, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's not going to get you in the flow state, but as your skills improve, you will find flow state. And I'm sorry, I'm going to keep using the woodworking analogy because I, but I have the same experiences around screencasting and all kinds of stuff I do, but you know, who out there makes a living screencasting, right? But like, I'm trying to learn a new skill in the shop,

and I'm not going to achieve flow state in it. But I need to go through that. And it's stressful to figure this out. But eventually, I will be able to do that skill in a flow state. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that as a way of kind of bootstrapping yourself into flow. But it is great once you get there, because that is the reason you do this stuff, right? I often talk about how I like to create things. And sometimes I wonder, like going into the show, is it that I like to create or is it that I like the process of creation? And to me, really, the process of the creation is nearly entirely engaged in flow state. So is it that all of this just gets down to me wanting to spend more time in flow state?

It could be. I think there is definitely a connection there between the act of creating and the flow state, specifically with the type of stuff that you and I do where like podcasts or blog posts or YouTube videos, anything like that, the quality comes from the quantity. And so I have to fight my perfectionist tendencies, talk about something that is anti-flow state. Perfectionism is definitely one of them because you'll make something and you'll just keep tweaking it. The act of making the thing, that could trigger a flow state, but then the editing and the tweaking of the thing over and over and over again until you get it just perfect. And that's the part that will keep you from getting the feedback loop.

And that feedback loop, the minute that you publish something, it's not going to be perfect anyways, no matter how much time you try to tweak it. But once you get it out there, then you can learn from that and you can figure out, well, this didn't work or I could have done this better. And then you apply that for next time. And this doesn't have to be something that you're keeping a journal of. And I made these seven mistakes and I'm going to address those on the next one because creating is essentially an artistic work. There's not a list of checkboxes that need to be completed in order for you to get 100 on the quality scale on this particular thing. You're constantly refining your craft. And by doing that, the thing just keeps getting better. So I do think that if you are creating, then there's maybe a natural bent

towards this, but it can be applied to other things as well. So in the book, Mihaly talks about how the average American adult works only 30 hours a week at their actual work. And then they spend an additional 10 hours doing things that are irrelevant to their jobs while they're at the workplace. And the reason for that is it's either stressful or it's boring. Going back to that chart, if we really are trying to stay in that flow state and we've got an office job, we'll look for the things that are going to extend our abilities. And that's going to lead you to do some things and solve some problems that maybe your direct boss or manager didn't directly say, hey, I need you to do this. But those are also the things by learning to see those things and

solve those problems that will help you get promoted as you climb the corporate ladder, just as another crazy example. But again, there's lots of different ways that you can apply this if you want. them was that you can't take on flow directly. You say, oh, I'm going to get myself in the flow right now. That's just not the way it works. It's a thing, I don't know, have you heard that saying where it's like an object you can't look at, but you can see in your periphery? That's what flow is. You have to circle around it. You can't just go straight at it. And the thing you had said that comes up in the literature often and really is central in my mind to finding flow is creating conditions of flow. And getting back to my earlier point of with modern technology and just kind of the fast pace of the world, we generally have conditions that are anti-flow. I mean, your life just in general is going to try and keep you from obtaining flow because of the pace and what's going on.

But I'd like to talk for a moment about creating conditions of flow. And I understand that you need to find work that, you know, challenges you, but not too much. But I also think there's other things of it. One of the things we've been talking about here is lack of distractions. Multitasking is, you know, there's a lot of things about multitasking, but one of them is you cannot multitask and obtain flow. In my experience, I have never been able to multitask and find flow. Case in point was last night. just the mere act of having a television playing a program that i was following along with while i was doing something prevented flow and i think that that's my experience with this maybe there's somebody out there that is a super human and can do it

multitasking but i would argue that if you want to obtain flow, don't multitask. That is 100% accurate. And again, coming back to the book, he has a whole section on the flow of thought and directing your attention. There's a lot of overlap here with the whole idea of mindfulness meditation, but he talks about how you need to be able to give order to your thoughts and that attention will be attracted to whatever is most problematic at the moment. There's a specific quote in here that to avoid this condition, people are naturally eager to fill their minds with whatever information is readily available as long as it distracts attention from turning inward and dwelling on negative feelings. They want to avoid that stuff. So the more that you're able to just focus on one thing,

the more likely you are to enter a flow state. So by multitasking, by definition, you're not allowing your attention to be focused on one specific thing. You're kind of leaning into the thing by jumping back and forth and context switching, leaning into the thing that is sabotaging the flow. And I would agree. Maybe there are people who would argue, like, I've really been able to just jump between fire one, fire two, fire three using multitasking, and that's when I really come alive. But I think if you were to really look at the activity that's going on in your brain, you would realize that that would be, even if you think that is a flow state, it's a false flow state. Yeah. All right. So avoid multitasking, you know, find difficult work and avoid multitasking.

Another obstacle to flow, in my opinion, is my brain. I feel like thinking too much about whatever you're doing can really get in the way of flow. And we've talked about this on the show quite a bit, but the older I get, the more skeptical I am of my brain. I once heard Alan Watts describe it as the rebellious organ. And I feel like he's right. I feel like a lot of the stuff your brain generates is noise that gets in the way of doing good stuff and making your life count. And I know there's people rolling their eyes. I can't help it, guys. You just get this with me. But I think flow state, your brain can get in the way of flow state. It absolutely can. Do you need me to describe that further or does that make sense?

Absolutely can. Do you need me to describe that further or does that make sense? No, I think that's, that's, it does make sense. That is absolutely, absolutely true. I don't have anything else to add to that, but I will add another condition that can help people get into a state of flow. If you don't have anything else that you want to add to that. No, no, I just want to build conditions here. I want to give people an action list to find flow. Okay, cool. Well, another thing that you could do is you could move your body. So physical exercise is a thing that can condition the flow state. There's a whole section in the book about the body and flow and how the body is a tool

to experience flow. So this is kind of beyond just the mind that you were talking about. But on page 97, he says, every person, no matter how unfit he or she is, can jump a little higher, can go a little faster, can grow to be a little stronger, and the joy of surpassing the limits of the body is open to all. Now, that doesn't mean that you constantly have to be pushing yourself via an exercise program, but I think just movement. And there's a lot of books that I've read that talk about these great thinkers who they got their great ideas when they left the office and they went for a walk. I don't know exactly why that seems to trigger these things between the mind and the body, though there is definitely a connection there.

And so if you are able to move your body, and I do think that there is value in some sort of like cardiovascular or aerobic exercise that you're, you know, if you're running, you're running a little bit further, a little bit faster. If you're lifting weights, you're lifting a little bit more, constantly pushing yourself just a little bit to go beyond your limits previously. But you don't have to have this goal of being a ripped bodybuilder or a marathon runner in order to experience the flow. That's kind of what he's saying from that quote that I shared. experience the flow. That's kind of what he's saying from that quote that I shared. Even if you can't do a single push-up, if you do one, you're on your way towards flow state. And then the next time, maybe you can do two. And I would just encourage people to look for ways that they can incorporate that movement into their day-to-day work. And by doing that, I feel like you're kind of setting yourself up for the right conditions to enter into a flow

state. Yeah. And I would kind of add on to that. First of all, I agree with what you just said, but I also think body movement is an opportunity to practice mindfulness and make it easier to find flow when you want it. I think there's even an argument you could find flow in body movement. I have recently, through the last three or four months, Daisy and I joined a Pilates club. All right, so let me go down that rabbit hole. Mid-50s guy, I'm trying to lose some weight, trying to get a little more healthy, so we thought we'd do this together. But I'm the only guy at it. Like, all my guy friends make fun of me. Oh, you know, I heard you're going to Pilates, you know, with all the teachers, you know, and the, but, but I like it.

And the thing I'm finding that I enjoy about it most is the emphasis on breathing. If you actually do Pilates, they, they want you to breathe when you like inhale, when you're doing a certain thing and exhale when you're doing another thing. And there's this focus on getting lost and getting the breathing right with the exercise. And I find a flow state in that. I can really just kind of lose track of time trying to coordinate the movement of my body with the way I breathe. And it really has started to change my thought about some of the exercise I do to the extent that I've stopped listening to podcasts when I take walks. Should I say that on a podcast? I don't know.

But I've been trying to do the dog walks without listening to anything. And it's just kind of trying to rewire my brain a bit for some of these physical activities. So I'm with you. activities. So I'm with you. Well, one of the first action items I jotted down from when I originally read this flow book was to try yoga. And that one did not stick for me, but same sort of principle that if you can match up the breathing, focusing on the breath, and the specific body movements, there's a lot of flow benefits that can come from that. I guess the version that I kind of landed on for that is I like to run. I run several times a week and the runner's high is kind of a version of flow where you don't feel

like you've got it today and you're thinking about turning back and you push yourself just a little bit further and then kind of without you even knowing it, now you've got it today and you're thinking about turning back and you push yourself just a little bit further and then kind of without you even knowing it now you've got this second wind the endorphins kick in and you feel like you could go another 10 miles uh that's kind of my version of that but i think everyone should try to find a a version of of that that's incorporated to physical exercise or body movement and it doesn't have to be. And it doesn't have to be something extreme. It doesn't have to be something that really gets your heart rate up necessarily. So I think that's a great example. Yeah. I was just looking, it was 31 years ago that I took my first like meditation lesson. And I think that for me has been a huge benefit in flow and obtaining flow because I have the ability to single track

my mind pretty well. It's a muscle I've been building for 31 years. And I think that really makes a difference. But I want to contrast because you had mentioned earlier, you know, flow and mindfulness. I feel like they're two different things, really. Mindfulness is being engaged in your present task regardless of flow like you can be mindful while you're paying your taxes but i'm not sure you can find flow while paying your taxes it's a different kind of thing yeah they they are definitely related i would argue that the mindfulness that you're describing there is a precondition for flow. So you can have, you need mindfulness to get to flow, but you won't necessarily get to

flow just because you have mindfulness. Exactly. Exactly. So working on the mindfulness muscle is a good way to obtain flow easily. And if you have trouble with mindfulness, you're going to have trouble with flow. Yep. Can I give you one more thing that can trigger flow according to Mihaly's research? Sure.

All right. Music can be something that can help you get into a state of flow. And this is actually coming from that body and flow section. But there's two aspects to this. The first is listening to music. If you have the right music that you are listening to in an environment that is a piece of your environment that can help channel you towards flow. I tend to choose instrumental music, and specifically there's an artist called Utah, which is pretty much all instrumental. And so I'll just say Yodingus, shuffle artist Utah. And that's my jam whenever I'm going into a long

writing session. However, if you can play music, that's even more powerful. So he mentions that while flow can come from listening to music, it's actually created more frequently when you are playing it. And it's not about the performance, it's about the experience. So I know you've got your saxophone, I've got my guitar in the office here, and I've done these experiments for a while. I need to get back to this where when I'm feeling a little bit stuck or a little bit frustrated, just grabbing my guitar and noodling around on it for 10 minutes can be a huge energy boost. And it's almost like it's gotten me halfway back there when I switch back to the writing task. And it's almost like it's gotten me halfway back there when I switch back

to the writing task. And there's just something about that. Obviously, it depends how you do it. Not all practice is deliberate practice, but that whole term of deliberate practice, where you're practicing a skill that you can't really do, I mean, that's the definition of the flow activity that's just beyond your current ability level. You're trying to play this solo passage or play this scale just a little bit faster. You can't keep just slopping your way through it. But if you start slow and you start to build up speed and it gets harder and harder, I mean, that's the perfect type of activity for developing a flow state. Yeah.

And it's also, I think a net positive on energy, like the experience of flow. Like you don't, you can get tired out. I mean, like you talked about running, you're going to get physically tired if you run, but there is, there is an energy, I don't know, surplus that comes from flow. I always feel good afterwards. I don't feel tired. I was just thinking another, I think I had an experience of flow just a few days ago. I'm obsessive about the Christmas tree lights as we're recording this.

It's late November, early December. And I don't want them done. When you just have a Christmas tree and you just throw the lights up on it, I find that personally offensive. So I'll spend two or three hours lighting the tree every year before the family puts ornaments on it. And that is a flow state for me when I get doing it. I want everything done just right. I'm super careful. And I believe I'm in flow state. I believe you are too.

Music is a trigger, by the way. I have my Yule playlist, and that is part of the experience for me. It's like I kind of need that in order to do it. So I can absolutely see music as a condition. This may not be specifically applicable to the situation that you just described, but maybe it is. Because another thing I think that can trigger flow state is being with the right people. And the right people here is the condition, because if you are with people who you enjoy spending time with, I feel like it's really easy

to enter into flow state. But it's just because the only objective there is that we're going to spend time together. We're not trying to accomplish a task. You're not trying to check the box as quickly as you can for getting the Christmas decorations up. But I think you can choose the people that you're going to spend the majority of your discretionary time with. Maybe you can't choose who you're going to work with or something like that. But if you can, looking for people who appreciate the little things and practice the mindfulness and creating an atmosphere where you can enjoy being together, that can be a thing that triggers flow. But then kind of the opposite end of this, going back to the digital distractions, I feel like you've got even one person in your group

who is not engaged with the activity that's going on and they're checking their phone all the time. It kind of saps all the energy from the entire group. So it's got a multiplicative effect there as well. I think I maybe shared this in a previous podcast, but since I brought up the idea of flow with people, I'll just throw this out there. One of the things that I did for a while with a group of friends was when we would go out to eat, we would put our cell phones in the middle of the table. And the first person that their phone buzzed and they grabbed it to look at what just happened, they were the ones who had to pay for the meal. So, I mean, there's, again, intentional friction that you can add to to these group experiences as as well but i think it's it's important to think about who are the people that can help you uh

experience a flow state too yeah and you know i don't know if being with the right people is a condition of flow but it's a it's a factor it weighs in. And the thing about flow, like I said earlier, it's nebulous. You can't go straight at it. And by that, I mean you create all these conditions and you hope it shows up, right? You work on something that's a little challenging. You try to limit distractions and you don't multitask. Try to have the right people around you. But I think when you talk about people, that is good or bad, right? You can have the wrong people with you and can make flow harder.

And I think there's other items like that. And I think one of them is anxiety. If you've got a lot on your mind, it's going to be very difficult to obtain a flow state. Like if you're worried about something at work or you've got a family member that's sick or something and you've got that on your mind, it's harder to get there. But what you find is if you can get there when you have anxiety is actually the anxiety disappears while you're in it. It's a way to kind of like escape that. I mean, I'm not a big drinker, but I know, you know, some people drink alcohol to get away from their problems. This is a much healthier way to do it, right? You know, create something in a flow state, you get the same effect. Um, because, but you, you know,

but if you have enough problems, you're not going to get to that state. Yeah. You kind of bring up an interesting point there because the flow state itself is not good or bad. It's kind of amoral. And that's one of the things that Mihaly talks about in the book is it's kind of a tool that you can use for good or bad. And the picture that I got from what you were describing with alcohol is somebody that is trying to break that. Maybe they go to an AA meeting, and those AA meetings are designed to recreate the conditions that they were craving, which most of the time was not the drink. It was the socialization. not the drink. It was the socialization. And I think that the flow state itself,

we can aspire to this, but ultimately we do need to make sure that the things that we are doing that are going to get us into flow state are in alignment with the vision and the values. That's really the only moral judgment we can apply to this, but it's something that I think everyone should think about. It's not just noticing, well, this thing triggered the flow state, so I guess I'll do that more. Ask yourself, is that really the type of flow state that you want to be in? I could be in flow state playing video games, but if that's not in alignment with my vision and values, then the argument could be made that I shouldn't be playing video games, or maybe not as much as I want to because that's what my body, like when I sit down and I play Zelda for three hours, it feels good. You do have to take that into consideration. How is this

serving the bigger picture of what I want my life to be about? substance abuse. And I got lots of CLE on it over the years that lawyers, you're stressed out about your clients, your cases, you're trying to win your cases and get paid and do all the stuff that comes with being lawyers. And a lot of them resort to substance abuse. But I met a lot of lawyers over the year that are like landscape painters and photographers and woodworkers, and they have all this stuff they do. And I feel like that is another way you cope is by finding flow and kind of setting aside the worries of the day. And that's what I was kind of going for there in Artfully. But the separate point you made is absolutely correct.

I mean, just because you reach flow state, it's great for you, but also be on the light side of the force, not the dark side of the force in the process. That's a separate issue. Yeah, there's definitely a dark side to flow, and we should look to paint the happy little trees, just like Bob Ross.

Yeah, I don't know that there's a dark side to flow. I think flow is ambivalent to the dark and the light side, but you can use it as a tool depending on both sides of the force, if that makes sense. So that's a separate question we're not really addressing today, but I feel like we have done a pretty good job of laying out some conditions that you can create. If this is something that you're not familiar with, I feel like everybody's familiar with it. We've all experienced it at one time or another, but we never really probably thought about it enough to figure out, well, that was good. How can I get back there? And that's what we have Mahali to think for, because he really did kind of quantify it a bit and give us some scientific research and the ability to try and recreate this very beneficial thing. to try and recreate this very beneficial thing.

I had a couple other thoughts on flow, Mike. I just thought they're kind of random, but I had them here. I thought I'd like to get them out while we've got it on. One of them is I feel like it's, you know, we talked about the difference, you know, mindfulness and flow. I think Buddhist enlightenment is another thing. People, you know, feel like this idea of enlightenment, is that what flow is? No, it's not. I think that is a much harder concept.

It's something entirely different than flow, so I don't think you should try and confuse those. And I feel like anyone can obtain a flow state with the right conditions if you start building those muscles. In terms of my experience of the flow, I said it earlier in the show, but I want to reiterate, you don't hear your inner voice when you're in a state of flow. At least I don't. And I know that's a thing a lot of people struggle with is you've got that little evil version of yourself and your brain telling you, you can't do this. You're not good enough, blah, blah, blah. That goes away when you're in flow state for me. Then I asked the hippie question, is the flow state the ultimate expression of humanness like are you being the arete the best version of yourself when you're in a state of flow i don't know if that's

true or not but i definitely could make the argument for it well i think uh in terms of arete and the the roles uh whatever you happen to be doing it's probably the best version of that role at the moment uh if you're able to get into flow chopping wood you are doing a better job chopping wood than you would be otherwise but i suppose it does require a little bit of of uh perspective to know whether this is really the best version of this, which is actually the thing I was going to add to this is that I feel like flow should be coupled with a reflection process. It doesn't have to be a quarterly personal retreat sort of thing, but you get out of the state of flow, you realize, oh, that felt great.

You should kind of take stock of what was the actual outcome from that state of flow. What did that do? And is that okay? Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Would I want a different outcome? Because if so, then maybe I got to put some boundaries around some of the factors that led to that flow state. Because to your point, it definitely is amoral. It's not good or bad. But I also am thinking of Jesse J. Anderson when we were talking to him and his book about ADHD and how flow can get you so absorbed in the thing that you're doing. And then four hours later, you look up and you missed an important meeting or something like that. So there's got to be some boundaries placed around this too. And we got to make sure that we're using it to serve our purposes as opposed to

just this state that we're trying to get to at whatever the cost. Yeah. And I would, Mike talked about the back end. I would talk about the front end to say, as you're planning your day and your week, look for opportunities to pursue flow. Like woodworking for me is one. Every time I go and go to the bench, there's an opportunity. But when I do recordings and I produce stuff as Max Barkey, I feel like there's an opportunity for flow there. When I'm processing email, I know that there isn't. It doesn't work that way for me.

And I don't think most people. So there are, you know, it's almost like a maker manager distinction. But look at the stuff you're doing and say, oh, you know, I could probably find flow working on that closing statement or working on that, on that, you know, dissertation section and like, look at your day and your week and look at opportunities for flow and then try to build conditions for it. We've talked about on the show, the, you know, productivity prime time. Sometimes you're just better and you're flowing better in the morning or the evening, or if you're Mike Vardy at 2 a.m., whatever your prime time is, try to put your flow-related work

into those blocks and see if you can't nudge it along. Yeah. All right. Well, that was our discussion of flow. We have more for the show. Uh, but Mike, anything that you want to say about flow as we finish up this part? No, uh, other than I would just consider your daily routine and the things that happen throughout your day and, uh, start to look for the places where maybe you can make some adjustments and create the conditions for flow to happen. And a focus is a lot of the skills that help protect your focus are going to be the things that are going to facilitate flow, but don't try to change everything, but maybe just try to put a couple of boundaries up and create some

intentional friction against unwanted distractions. And I would add that I feel like flow is the payoff for being productive, mindful, and focused. I think that if you want to pursue these things, people say, well, why are you doing all of this stuff? I think the payoff in a lot of ways for me personally is flow. It's the ability to exercise my arete, my humanness, and be the best version of myself when I do the things that are the most important. This episode of Focus is brought to you by Indeed. We're driven by the search for better, but when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search, match with Indeed. If you need to hire, you need Indeed. Indeed is your matching

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140 million qualifications and preferences every day, Indeed's matching engine is constantly learning from your preferences. So the more that you use Indeed, the better it gets. So join myself and more than 3.5 million businesses worldwide that use Indeed to hire great talent fast. And listeners of this show can get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at indeed.com slash focused, F-O-C-U-S-E-D. Just go to I-N-D-E-E-D.com slash focused right now and support the show by saying that you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com slash focused. Terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Our thanks to Indeed for their support of the Focus podcast and all of RelayFM. So Mike, let's talk about shiny new objects or in my case, a shiny old object.

What are you buying lately? Well, I finally got something that I backed on Kickstarter, which is the Lens Ultra full kit from a company called shift cam shift cam i have a a grip like a dslr style grip that you can put your iphone in this holder and this is actually what i've been using to shoot all the b-roll for my youtube videos yeah and the lens ultra kit is basically a bunch of high quality lenses that are designed for your phone there's a case that you can get for the phone itself and it's got a little bit bigger camera bump and on the telephoto and the macro lenses it has these raised rims which are threaded

so the link that i put in the the notes there it shows this aluminum style briefcase the kind that you would see in a spy movie handcuffed to somebody because it contains something really important as they walk down the hallway yeah and uh it's got your your kaizen foam with all the the lenses in there and these actually just screw right on to the the uh the iphone case and uh they let you do some pretty crazy things with the uh the iphone camera there's a fisheye there's wide angles there's a whole bunch of stuff in here. So I literally got this yesterday. I have the case on my phone. I can't wait to try out the lenses themselves, but I feel like this is kind of cool. I know stuff like this has existed previously,

but the cameras are so good in the iPhones that having some lenses that allow you to achieve some different looks and some different shots, I mean, if you're a content creator, this is probably all that you need. Yeah, I mean, we're getting to that point, right? Where you don't need the fancy SLR anymore. And, and the iPhone already has so many options. Like you've got three lenses built in if you've got the pro, but then you add filters and additional lenses and you've got quite a video studio that you can probably put in your pocket or at least your bag small bag exactly i mean i used to shoot all that b-roll

with the actual dslr camera my wife has one because she was a professional photographer and we would have to bring a tripod and if we did any sort of movement i would have to stabilize it after the fact and the results were were not as good as the iphone i've even got the 14 i don't even have the 15 but that with the action mode turned on you can make these real smooth looking uh moving videos looks like you've got it on a gimbal or something and now with some lenses that can change, you know, focal lengths and the look of some of this stuff, it's really powerful. This is really nice. I also bought a camera. I bought, I had a collection of cameras around here that I was using for various efforts. You know, we do some vlogging at Disneyland and I do a bunch

of shooting here. So I had a couple here that weren't getting used. So I sold them and I took the proceeds and I bought a DJI pocket three, which is the new gimbal based camera mount system from DJI. It's got a one inch sensor on it shoots great low light. It doesn't have the lens variety that you're going to have with your set and your iPhone. But to me, it's like a, that combined with the iPhone is a really great video set because the DJI has the gimbal in it. I can shoot walking video. It does some things. The iPhone doesn't do that well. And it's got a built-in wireless microphone and the little wireless, you know, microphone unit that you can put on your shirt. And I'm going to be doing more Disneyland vlogging because I just thought it would be fun.

That would be something to do. So I wanted to have a better camera for that, but I feel like that combined with the iPhone for me is a very good rig and I'm using the DJI for all my B-roll. So like you, I've kind of simplified the camera rig yeah it kind of depends on what your desired output is going to be but for me it's youtube and uh i don't know that shooting everything in 4k is really going to add a whole lot of value to the stuff that i do so i tend to shoot with uh the in 4k with the action mode turned on which isn't quite 4k and what that gives me is a scaled down version once i export it to 1080p that allows me to kind of zoom in on different areas that's kind of a tip or a hack that i picked up from wally chazinsky at max stock a while back

is you want to shoot in the highest possible resolution with your raw stuff, but then what that allows you to do is take different shots from the same shot. You could have one that's in this part of the shot, another thing that's in the other part of the shot, and you can zoom and you're not going to lose any resolution as long as it's higher than the output. Yeah, that's a screencaster trick too. You shoot in high resolution, it allows you to zoom in on the screen and you don't get, you don't lose,

you don't get pixelation. Yeah. I bought one other thing, Mike. We had Black Friday. I went in and bought a year's worth of Ugmonk cards. I bought 12 boxes. So, you had a deal. The funny thing is,

the Ugmonk cards, there's the daily cards, which are white, and then they have the someday cards, which are gray. And then I think they're called future cards, which are dark brown. I don't use all of the, every month I use all the white cards and a few of the others. So I'm getting a large stack of those. But my wife likes to use the brown ones for her work projects. She's starting to see the light, so she writes down what she needs to get done on a work project. So I found somebody to take some of those off my hands, and that made me feel comfortable buying a year's worth.

So I'm in for another year. Awesome. That's a great product. I actually have the Ugmonk Anal analog, but I don't use the cards because I am a, uh, paper snob. Because fountain pens.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Also, what are you reading right now, Mike? Uh, I am just finishing up a book

called Who Not How by Dan Sullivan and Dr. Benjamin Hardy. Uh, I've talked before on the podcast about the concept of the gap and the gain. That actually came from Dan Sullivan, and he's got another pretty popular concept that he teaches to business owners specifically around who not how,

which the basic idea here is if you are a business owner and you're trying to get people to help you grow your business, you need to hire the right people and then get out of their way. Let them figure out how to get something done because chances are they will get it done better than you. That's a very simplified version of the concept and it doesn't have to just be for big business owners. For example, one of the things that I'm thinking about as I'm reading this book is identifying what are the bottlenecks for me growing my creator business. Well, if I could get more YouTube videos out, then I could grow my email list faster and that would grow my business faster. But I do all of the editing for my YouTube videos. As long as I'm doing all of the editing,

I am the bottleneck here. I have lots of ideas and it's easy for me to sit down and write the scripts, but putting it all together is a heavy lift. However, I have a couple of kids at home who like YouTube and like using computers and like making things. So why don't I pay them, help them develop these skills? And I'm sure that if I took the time to sit down to figure out, you know, this is the process. This is the kind of look I'm going for. And these are the transitions to use. And they should be this long.

And, you know, just thinking through the guidelines, I'm sure giving them a little bit of clarity and then letting them run with it, they would probably end up with videos that are better than the ones that I'm able to make. So it's not just something I've been thinking about, but it's a, it's a pretty good book. I don't think it's quite as good as the gap in the gain. I think that one's more broadly applicable, but I do recommend this one too. Yeah. I don't read books nearly as fast as the the gap in the gain i think that one's more broadly applicable but i do recommend this one too yeah i don't read books nearly as fast as you so i don't know the next time we talk about this i'll be on to another one or not but right now i'm doing my second reading of rick rubin's the creative act a way of being and man this is a good book but on my second reading i am doing the stuff if you're one of those people that wants to keep your book pristine,

you are going to, you might want to just forward a few minutes because I, I'm writing all over the inside of this book and I'm actually engaging with Rick in the, in the white space of the book where I, my thoughts versus his thoughts, but he's just so clever and he has such a great idea about creativity. And this, you know, Rick Rubin is known for being a record producer, and this is not a book about producing records. I think this is a book anybody could benefit from. I'm just really enjoying this book again. I read it once, and the second reading is even better, but I'm going to take my time this time going through it.

That's definitely a good book, and it warms the conchels of my heart to hear that you are engaging with Rick Rubin as you're reading the book. Because that's one of the things that I picked up from How to Read a Book by Mortimer Adler. And Joe and I advocate for that on the Bookworm podcast, is it is just a conversation that you're having with the author. And I think Mortimer Adler would commend you for writing in the book. Well, I've gone back and forth because I have read hundreds of nonfiction books on my Kindle. But between you and Chris Bailey and some other folks, I've been trying to

read physical books again. And you have to understand the background of this for me is I went to law school where you were carrying like 60 pounds of books with you regularly. And when digital stuff showed up and I could get all that on a Kindle, there was a lot of benefit to that. But you know, now I largely read books at home. I don't need to carry them around. And so I'm starting to slowly come around to you guys on it. And one of the advantages, definitely, you can write all over the thing. A friend of mine was here and I showed him a quote out of the book and he's like, how could you do this to your book? I'm like, how could you not do this to your book if you really like it? But yeah, so I'm going back at Rick Rubin and I honestly think this is going to take me a month to get through this at the rate I'm going.

So I'm not sure if I'll be talking about this book again in the next show or not. But it's a good book. Rick Rubin, The Creative Act. I like it. All right. Well, we are The Focus Podcast. I hope we inspired you today to try and make a little bit more effort to find yourself in the flow state. Try to use some of our tips and create the conditions necessary and experience

it a little bit more yourself. It really is a state of humanness, as I was talking about in the show. And we'd love to hear about it. We've got a forum over at talk.macpowerusers.com. You can talk about your experiences with flow state. How do you get there? How do you stay there? What are the things that force you out of it? I'm sure we all have our own lists. So we'd like to hear about that as well. Thank you to our sponsors,

our friends over at Squarespace and Indeed. On Deep Focus today, Mike and I are going to talk about focus and email, something that's on my mind right now. Otherwise, we'll see you next time.