Focused - 201: What to Do When Things Don't Go Your Way, with Haemin Sunim

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

Welcome to Focus, the productivity podcast, but more than just cranking widgets. I'm Mike Schmitz. I'm joined by my fellow co-host, Mr. David Sparks. Hey, David. Hey, Mike. How are you today? Doing great.

We have a very special guest who's joining us today. Before we get there, just real quickly want to give one more plug for my reading workshop, because this will be the last episode that goes out before that takes place, settled on a date. It's April 19th. It'll be at 11 a.m. Central Time, so it's 9 a.m. Pacific. And I'm gonna cram everything I know about reading books and reading workflows and taking book notes into a two-hour workshop. If you are interested in joining, you can go to MikeSchmitz.com slash reading-masterclass. There will be a link in the show notes.

There's a paid workshop. It's gonna be $49. It's basically an entire course worth of content that I'm trying to condense down into two hours. So you walk away with more bang for your buck. Excellent. And we have a guest today. Welcome to the show, Haman Sunim.

Oh, thank you for having me. Ah, it's our pleasure. I've always felt that there's a big overlap between what we're talking about here, focus, and a lot of the tenets of Buddhism about intentionality and focus. And Haman is a monk who has, well, actually, Haman, why don't you tell us a little bit about your past

so you can share it with the audience? I'm author. I have written three books and the most recent one, When Things Don't Go Your Way, just came out in the United States and it's going to become available very shortly in the UK as well. And also I used to be a college, you know,

professors in Massachusetts for about seven years. And then I became founder of School for Broken Hearts in South Korea, Seoul. That's where I was born and raised, and I became monk in Korea. So I returned to my own country and then I have offered many different kinds of counseling programs and group therapy sessions along with meditations. And you were educated at Berkeley, Harvard, and Princeton. And there's these three books you mentioned, When Things Don't Go Your Way, Love for Imperative Things, and The Things You Can See Only When You Slow Down. When we heard you were coming on the show,

I bought When Things Don't Go Your Way, but since then I have consumed all three books. They're very good. I really enjoyed them. I'm gonna give you like the really short review because your books remind me of tick not Hans books. And in that sense, they're tricky because they're short and they get to the point, but you can bump into a sentence or two that you can spend a couple hours thinking

about, so it almost should come with a warning label. I love the way you write and, uh, and they, I know you wrote them originally in Korean, I believe, but they translate very well to English. And I would recommend anybody that's interested in questions like that to check them out. Thank you so much. Yeah, that's precisely what I wanted to do, give you what they call drop of wisdom, and then let them think about this and ponder and meditate on it. AC Let's unpack that just a little bit because there is a very unique style to these books where you basically have these different chapters and you have a longer essay around a topic. And then you have the wisdom drops, I think is what you called them when you were talking to

Mike Vardy. And how did you land on the formatting that you used for these books? I find it nowadays for many people, especially young people, they find it hard to just read through the whole pages. So I just wanted to condense the point that I wanted to make and then deliver in a very short abbreviated form while satisfying the needs of reading a longer essay as well. So that's how I came up with the format. Well I think it works really well. I think it's very effective and the wisdom drops that you have. I found myself going through them and every fourth or fifth one it would just kind of hit different. So not every one obviously is causing me to stop and think, but there are definitely those ones that really resonate.

And I think the formatting that you use is very effective. If that's the intention is you want some of this stuff to stick, you don't want to just complete the book and move on to the next one. I found myself, and I read a lot of books. I've got a whole separate podcast where I read a different book every two weeks, but I found myself kind of brewing on some of the things after I read this as I would go about my day, which is not, I guess, the standard protocol for me when I read a lot of these

non-fiction books. Yeah. Well, that's amazing. Even if there is only one wisdom drop that really resonated with you and maybe changed some perspective, how to do things differently, for the better, then I think I have done my work. Yes, I agree. There were a couple of those specifically around the topic of fear that really kind of just hit me. Kind of going off of your outline here, David, so you can bring me back if you want here. But I really like the idea of dealing with your fear or facing your fear as opposed to running from it and hiding it and pretending that it's not there. Right. Yeah. The path to become free from your fear is going through the fear and not running away from it. Once you face the fear, you realize that, oh, this wasn't something that's so huge, it's something that's so terrifying.

Actually, you know in Buddhism what we call the emptiness, you know, in substantiality of the fear, it was just the thoughts that was blocking me from actually advancing to my next level. So I recommend that, I mean, you cannot just do it all at once. You can just take a small dose at a time. And as you become closer and closer, and then you get to see the bottom of your fear, and then voila, you'll see that actual

emptiness of your fear. Hey, I have had a similar experience. I started a meditation practice in 1993. I do it all the time. In fact, I think you can probably see my meditation cushion right there behind me. Oh yeah. So I daily meditate. And to me that was one of the biggest discoveries after I did it for a while, was what my teacher called untangling the knot.

And I don't know if you've probably heard this before, but the idea is you take an underlying emotion. And it seems to me like for people, it's often one or the other. It's anger or fear. For me, it feels like it's fear more than it's anger. I don't get angry very easily. But I do get afraid of things.

And in the meditative practice, just kind of starting to say, well, why is that? Just like you said, running into it and finding the kind of source reasons and emotions, it's a very strange sensation if you've ever experienced it because at some point, the basis of the fear does become clear to you through reflection. And in my head, I don't know if this was planted

with me by a teacher or a book or whatever, but I almost like see a knot untangle and it just kind of dissolves. And it's like, then it's just kind of gone. It's just a extremely liberating process, but you have to experience it to really appreciate it, I think. Yeah, absolutely.

If you actually take a look and face, you know, what is really there, and oftentimes actually it is just your imagination. Yeah. As you become closer and then become familiar with your own fear, I mean in the beginning it takes a lot of courage, it takes a lot of time, but as you are looking into it and asking the question, you know, what am I really afraid of? What am I really afraid of?

And what is really there? And then this becomes occasion of self discovery. And as you discover about your emotion and deeper maybe part of yourselves, and then you begin to realize that, oh, I didn't need to be so that afraid. I could just actually, only reason why I was afraid I didn't need to be so that afraid. Only reason why I was afraid is because I didn't look into it.

Yeah, yeah. And it's funny, because there's all of these spiritual traditions around the world that kind of come to that conclusion, like your brain run amok can get you into trouble, and then if you can figure it out and get to the bottom of it. But that's just one little pearl of wisdom in this book.

There's so many topics, and the format of it to pick up where Mike left off is it doesn't follow the Western nonfiction book tradition. What we have now, I feel like in a lot of Western books on self-improvement is it starts with a principle and then many, many stories of going out and finding so-and-so did this test or so-and-so, and they talk about all these different people

that have had illustrative examples. And that's a great way to write a book, but it also is a long way to write a book. Whereas the way your books are written, it's a very small essay. Sometimes it's self-reflective, you share a personal story or just some ideas, but then you drop into these wisdom bits.

And they're just all little bits of wisdom. Like Mike said, I really enjoyed the format as well. And I think you're onto something. Thank you. I hope this becomes occasion for contemplations as opposed to just reading through quickly and then forgetting about it. West, I realized that people, you know,

have a different purpose for reading. In Asia, and especially in Korea, people pick up book to learn. But I noticed that in the West, people also pick up book to entertain themselves. Yeah. Which is different type of, you know, readings. Well, let's talk about that for a minute.

Like, because I agree with you. I think especially nonfiction books, uh, if you're going to read it, uh, to, you know, it, you need to do more than glance off an idea you need to engage with it. And you maybe need to find a way to incorporate it into your life. How do people do that in Korea? I think, um, there's a whole, um, genre do that in Korea? I think there's a whole genre of essay in Korea and that is they allow you know people to write about their own story and that relates to other people's situations and that is as we read about

other people's lives it becomes occasion for me to be reflective about my own life. And it's not strictly a memoir. Anybody can write it. Even if you're not famous or have not accomplished something amazing, you can still write about one small segment of your life, small bits of it, and then become very contemplative about what that moment really means. So people enjoy reading it as a way to really get to know them through the lens of other people's lives. Like in your section on friendship, you've got a little one here. A good friend is a magician. The one who can easily double my happiness.

I just love that. I, I, when I wrote that, I wrote that down in my own little contemplation book when I read it and it does kind of remind me as well as, you know, the Zen tradition has this idea of kind of, um, throwing out a small story or koan or whatever to kind of spark your brain and I feel like this book does that I guess I keep saying it over and over again but what a wonderful little book you have written oh thank you so much I think friends they do in a double our happiness. I went to an amazing beautiful place recently in Switzerland actually and then as I was hiking around and I

was all by myself and I realized that while I was looking at this amazing beautiful mountain I just wish I had friends that I can become amazed together, become very happy together. It wasn't as nice as just looking at it all by myself because the scenery was just spectacular. This episode of the Focus Podcast is brought to you by NomNom, healthy fresh food for dogs formulated by top board certified veterinarians.

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and your local PetSmart stores. Or for 50% off your no-risk trial box, go to trinom.com slash focused. That's T-R-Y-N-O-M dot com slash focused for 50% off your first subscription order. And our thanks to Nom Nom for their support of the Focus Podcast and all of Relay FM. I know as a monk, you are deeply steeped in the tradition of meditation. We talk about it actually quite a bit here because I'm a fan.

Mike has worked with it off and on over the years. And I do think that giving, you know, one of the big goals of our show is for people to start to think about focus. And I think one of the ways you can do, you can focus more is by stopping. And in modern society, I feel like there is a lot of pressure for you to not stop and to always be going and, and building

in something like a meditation practice can really help you, um, start to realize the benefits of stopping. I mean, the example I always use is cause it's, it's to this day, shocking to me when you go to the grocery store, I don't know what it's like in Korea, but in the US, everybody in line has their phone out in line to buy eggs. It's like there's three or four minutes they have before they need to make a purchase and they can't be alone with their own thoughts for three or four minutes. They constantly need that distraction.

And I think, you know, meditation practice is a way to start kind of building back on that. Did you, because I know, were you, you weren't a monk when you were going through school, right? You were, well, you tell me, I think I'm a little off my game here. When did you get your formal training?

Oh, when I was, you know, just about finishing my master degree, actually. Yeah. But I became very much interested in, you know, spiritual practice ever since I was very young. And I asked, you know, big questions such as, you know, such as who am I and why am I here? I felt as though I was just thrown into this world without any kind of manual and it is my job to find out all those reasons. But I realized that one of the ways to become aware of my own being is to pause. Like you say, we have to just stop and to see what is already there. Rather than trying to look for something that's not there yet, we should just pause and appreciate what is already there. I think that is one of the

first steps we can do for spiritual liberation as well. So I really recommend people to take time and see what is really there in front of you. All those worries, all those anxious thoughts, it just disappear if you actually look at the things that's already in front of you. That's kind of magical. That is, if you can just appreciate what is in front of you. Yeah, that's kind of magical. That is, if you can just appreciate what is in front of you. Like for example, I have a cup of tea and as I

am appreciating the tea, the sense, smell, the textures, all of that comes alive and this becomes occasion for me to slow down and become happier. So I think we lost the art of slowing down because of all this technology we have, but I think a path to happiness is truly appreciating what we already have. I was once at a retreat and I had a teacher tell me, you're not eating your rice, you're eating your problems. I think there's truth to that. But if somebody is out there listening

and they want to become a little more intentional, they do want to find that pause, what is some advice you would give them to find it? I think you can just do it from where you are. You don't have to get to a special place or a time. Actually when you are having a cup of coffee in the morning or talking to your wife or husband, then just really listen while they are talking or really appreciate the food that you are having And when you are listening to music really listen, you know

When you are distracted and think about something else then you cannot actually, you know hear the music but if you pay attention to what's already happening around you then You become your life becomes richer and happier. CB One of the things you mentioned in the things you can see only when you slow down under the chapter on mindfulness that I thought was really interesting was you said that the harder we try to suppress negative emotions, the more we churn them up. Could you speak to that and maybe how the mindfulness meditation practice helps you sort through those things? Yes. As you are acknowledging what is already there, then you are providing some space for

that negative emotion to be there. And while you are allowing that emotion to be there, you are not fighting. You are not arguing with it. You are not extending your negative emotions. Rather, you let the negative emotion to be there and watch slowly how it evolves. Because it doesn't, it's not frozen. It is all constantly changing, constantly moving.

And as soon as you just provide that space for your negative emotion to be there, then naturally sooner or later, it just evolves. And then it disappears by its own. But if you try to suppress it and in denial of your negative emotions, then this becomes part of your subconsciousness. And then later you will end up projecting

your all this negative emotion onto other people. Yeah, so for example, if you don't like selfishness, like for example, I don't want to be selfish, and then if you just keep on suppressing your selfishness, for example, then as you walk around, you will begin to see a lot of selfish people around you. It is because you're projecting that which you don't like. So I recommend that rather than you know suppressions, just let them be and be curious and see how that

emotions which I label as selfishness or whatever, sadness or depressions or anger. Just take the label out and then observe the energy. And then you'll soon see the energy changes all by itself. You don't have to do anything. You also mentioned in that chapter that the mind can't have two thoughts at once. So by letting that be, is that what allows you to disconnect from the negative emotion and focus on the positive? Yes. Rather than you are continuing with your thoughts and thereby you feel trapped in your own thoughts. You become the prisoner of your own thoughts. By becoming mindful of your thoughts, what happens is you are taking a step back and you are witnessing. And while you're witnessing your thoughts, you are not continuing with your thought pattern, the same thought pattern. You just pause.

So one of the magical way to get yourself out of your thoughts is to, you know, slow down and observe your own thoughts. And interestingly, uh, you realize that you are not the thoughts, you know, you are not your thoughts, you know, You are that which observe your thoughts. I feel like that's a really hard concept for people, separation of themselves from their ideas. How do you teach people that are struggling with that? It's very easy to tie your identity

into what you're thinking, and that can lead to all sorts of problems. Absolutely. Oftentimes when we haven't cultivated mindfulness, we end up identifying ourselves with, you know, emotion, our own feeling and our own thoughts and thereby, you know, anybody who has different thoughts, then you end up, you know, arguing with that person or try to convince that person to think like the way I'm thinking. However, there is a greater part of you, which in Buddhism is called awareness, that allows you to quietly witness everything. You don't have to be so actor in your own

mind. You can just take a break actually and then take a step back and observe. And then what's interesting is you don't have to be so identify yourself with your thoughts and emotions because they come and go they always change so rather than say I have this feeling and thereby like for example if somebody say I am angry you know somehow you are identifying yourself with anger that emotion of anger But what's interesting is it wasn't you who wanted to intentionally try to feel anger, you know to feel so much, you know anger Because nobody wants that you know who wants to you know stay

Be angry all the time It just naturally happens And then what happened is it will naturally disappear. So just observe this whole theater within your mind, how anger arises and then you label it as anger. And then as you take that label away, and then the energy of anger just dissipate. Again, neutral observation.

Another thing you had said when you were talking about your tea that I think is an interesting point to kind of develop further is the experience of drinking the tea. You only get that tea one time. That cup of tea is available to you this one time. Next time it'll be a different cup of tea. It's like the, you know,

finding a way to be in that moment to enjoy it while it's there. Yeah, you know, if we have an intention to actually appreciate what's already here, then there are many occasions in our lives, daily life, to feel happy. Because you can actually sense all this wonderfulness, wonderful things in our lives. So tea is just one example. Everything is impermanent, always changing. However, it doesn't mean that it is negative or depressing. Actually, it means that we can appreciate all those changing qualities, you know, of all the

things that's happening around us. So I talk about in my book, you know, happiness and then I define happiness not chasing after what I don't have or resisting what's coming to my way. Our mind has this tendency to look for something that we don't have or resist what is already here. And as we are either resisting or chasing after something, then there's feeling of dissatisfaction, the feeling that it's not quite there yet, I'm not happy, not yet.

I need certain condition to be met. So I talk about you know, the practice of gratitude That is, you know while we you know, intentionally try to find elements of gratitude then we stop chasing after something that we don't have or We resist what it's already here by Pausing, you know the either movement of our mind, then we actually arrive here right now. That's all we have actually. And then begin to truly feel grateful and thereby feeling much, much happier. That's a good place to talk about the first section of your newest book,

When Things Don't Go Your Way. The first chapter was really the one that I was thinking about the whole time you were talking about anger and the disappointment with things not turning out the way that you want them to be in that section is titled, Don't Be Alright. Do you mind kind of unpacking that for us? When things aren't the way we want them to be, what is the correct response there? I think the correct response is observe, examine what is already there, rather than trying to hope for something that is not there and thereby not accurately assessing what's happening. So if you feel sad if you feel or angry

Just acknowledge. Oh, it is there the cloud of anger is passing by the cloud of sadness is passing by So even if you don't feel alright, it's okay, you know, don't be alright, you know You don't have to be always happy or nice and relaxed. Whatever the emotion arises, make room for them to be there. Because you are not that emotion. Those emotions are just passing clouds. Soon it will disappear. Yeah and I would encourage them you know rather than trying to manufacture some

positive emotions and just observe and let them be whatever the quality it is already there and thereby that particular situations give rise to wisdom give rise to you know what to do next step, as opposed to you try to do something without really understanding the situations. Yeah, the idea of observation giving you insight, right? If you can separate yourself from the passing emotion and just truly observe

what's going on. I just recently had a friend who is very unhappy because she didn't get her promotion. I mean, she was talking to me, I've been here for three years and we had a job open up for the middle manager and I didn't get it and I feel like they let me down. And I said, well, what did the people

that have that position, what did they do to get that? Well, I don't know. I mean, they were here before me. I'm like, did you talk to them? Did you observe? And it's just like, she was so upset about not getting the job. She never stopped to figure out why

or what it is that you do to get the promotion. And afterwards, she had like a list of things she wanted to do in research. And I feel like this stuff all really ties together. So often we let the wild animal between our ears get in the way of seeing what's actually going on. Exactly. Yeah. So I think knowing what's really happening, that's a key to success for our next step. So rather than projecting our hope, our wish, just see what is really happening. I really like that chapter title, the Don't Be Alright.

I've come to know several Buddhists in my life and I think there's a common misconception that Buddhists are just at equanimium with whatever is happening and they're not. I've known some Buddhists that really can get angry, you know, and really passionate about things. But the difference I think is in the observation and the action that follows from that cloud of sadness, whatever it is. So that's kind of challenging to me as I think about the culture and kind of the standard response. You bump into somebody at dinner that you haven't seen in a while,

how are you doing? I'm good, right? That's what we try to project, but we never really... I mean, even if you felt like I'm not all right, that's not a socially acceptable response. You wouldn't want to say that to somebody. And I was kind of thinking about why is that? That chapter, don't be all right, acknowledge that you're not being all right. And I was thinking about it from the other perspective. If someone were to say that to me, it kind of puts the pressure I feel like to, well, we got to solve this problem, which is kind of the wrong approach is what you're saying. Like this is going to come and it's going to go and just recognize it, and this too shall pass. It kind of is a very freeing way to think about these emotions that can come up

and be very strong and just kind of dominate. They take over your entire world when you encounter them. Yeah, as I was doing a lot of programs in my school for broken hearts, I noticed that many people, what they really, really, you know, want isn't so much for someone to step in and try to fix everything. Rather, what they are hoping is somebody will just quietly witness, acknowledge all the pain that I just went through, all the challenging, difficult emotion that I just had. And just being, you know, having somebody witness and it gives, you know, validations for my emotions. So as a friend, rather than trying to quickly fix your friend's problems, we can just let that person

to talk about how he or she feels about this and then acknowledge, oh, that's how you feel. Oh, okay. Yeah. And in providing that space, I think it's compassion. It also reminds me a lot of empathy, which I have, I guess, a biased perspective on that coming from an emotional intelligence background, but I think it's very closely linked to what you're talking about with compassion. I think when you're able to express empathy with skill, it's really about saying and doing things to make the other person feel acknowledged and heard? Absolutely. When we feel completely alone and nobody is understanding how I'm feeling

right now, it is such a lonely place to be. But when there is one person, you know, best friend or husband or wife or you know, whoever is there and knows what's really happening, then that person actually gives you a lot of comfort and you know, it just gives me a lot of support, emotional support, I realize. But if you, if there's nobody, like nobody understands or knows how I'm feeling and what I'm going through, then this person can think about awful things like committing suicide or doing something unhealthy. So if we can just check in each other and see how are you, how things are really going with you, and then let the other person really talk

from their own heart, then I think it would be better off for our society and for our own relationship. Yeah, that's a lesson I need. Because I am definitely one of those people when I have a friend that's having problem, I immediately go into fix it mode. Like, okay, let's figure this out, let's fix it. Maybe that's not necessarily what they need to hear.

But there's a part of me that just immediately wants to take steps. You have a good intention. Like you want to help friends. You want to get your friends out of their problems. So the intention is good. But at the same time, you know, see what the needs of your friends is. And if what they really need is somebody who listens, then provide that. Be the good listener. This episode of Focus is brought to you by Squarespace.

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and you'll show your support for the Focus podcast. Our thanks to Squarespace for the support of the show and all of Relay FM. Hey, man, you had said earlier about the importance of a gratitude and incorporating gratitude into your life. And I was wondering, do you have like a practice or recommendation for people who want to pick

up and do more gratitude? Yes. One of the easier ways to do it is finding a gratitude buddy, you know, somebody who can with whom you can send a text message. And simply, all you're going to do is whenever you feel gratitude, you know, you know, grateful, then you're just going to send a very simple text message to your friend. And that will be the way of communicating between you and your gratitude buddy. And as you receive, receive you know the messages from your friend this this is going to encourage you to look at other you know elements

in your life that you feel very grateful so this works well and also another way is to find the small in a pebble or some stone that you like, and then you become, whenever you see that stone in your living room or in your bedroom, and you think about one thing that you feel very grateful in that moment. So you can cultivate that practice as well. And as I am being served in the restaurant or in gas stations or in a supermarket, you can really get in touch with your gratitude

you know, get in touch with your gratitude and say, truly, you know, I'm really grateful for your help. And just, you know, you really mean it. So that can be another way of practicing too. I like that idea of gratitude buddies. Yeah, I got several ideas there. I also thinking a gratitude stone in your pocket could make a lot of sense every time you reach and pull it out of your pocket. And you're like, okay, what am I grateful for at this moment? I like that.

But also I like the idea of using text messaging for it. It's something that often is, so often text messages get in the way, but what if text messages could be a way for you to express gratitude? And when you occasionally send out text message of gratitude to other people, whether it's your coworker or your parents

or your distant relatives, then what you will get is another message of gratitude from their side. So it actually helps you. Gratitude, I think, give birth to another gratitude. CB It's infectious, yes. HENRY Yes, absolutely. So this is a really positive practice, I believe. AC The gratitude snowball. I'm kind of curious, Haman, with gratitude. Is there a specific way that you would recommend communicating it to other people? It seems to me, based on my limited experience, that the more specific you can be with the gratitude, the more effective it is. Is that accurate? Absolutely. Yes. You can talk about nice touch of cinnamon. My friend, she knew how much I like cinnamon and so she

was thinking about you know what my need is and what my preference when it comes to coffee. Um, so, uh, like a little thing, very detailed things, uh, that makes it, uh, special, you know, makes it, um, very, uh, eventful, memorable. One of the things I think that we struggle with in modern, the modern world I think that we struggle with in modern, the modern world is the onslaught of technology and interruptions and demands. If anything, the world more than ever does not want us to stop and take some space or, or to pause. And a lot of people listening have jobs where they're constantly bombarded with email and demands and family and all that.

What are some steps you would recommend to people who are struggling, who know that they want to get a little more space or a little bit more pause, but they don't know how to get started? I think you can look for your resting place besides your home, somewhere intermediary place. I talk about it in my book.

It's called, what is your querencia? You know, querencia? It's in Spanish. People, you can find, whether it's a beautiful coffee shop or a public library or your favorite spot in a museum public library or your favorite spot in the museum or a beautiful tree in your local park. Just find a place that is very restful and very beautiful and just go there as much as you can. On your way back to home or in between your meal, like lunch lunch hour you can just go and sit there I find it very nurturing if you can just connect you know yourself with that

beautiful space it's readily available it's free you know you can just find a very relaxed very nice chair in your local bookstore, for example, you know, and you can just sit there and makes you feel very calm and I think, you know, having that particular space is very important. It's not your workspace, it's not your, you know, home, you know, somewhere in between. And I find that it works better if you can introduce the element of nature, you know, whether it's beautiful in a tree forest or it's a path that you love to just walk on. If you can just go there and engage yourself with your nature, you know, smell the fresh air and then, you know, smell the fresh air, and then watch the sunrise and sunsets. All of those allows

you to pause and appreciate your life. And I think this will become an occasion for you to de-stress yourself. Do you have a specific place or places that fit that description for you? You mind sharing some personal examples maybe? Absolutely. Seoul has a lot of coffee shops actually. And there is one particular very beautiful coffee shops that's not big, it's small, but it's traditional house looking.

Not many people go there, but I like one corner in that coffee shop. So after my morning walk, I would just go there and order a cup of latte and then sit there and just appreciate what is already there. And also as a Buddhist monk, I love to go to Buddhist temple or even in a cathedral or church. I just really like that feeling of calmness and so I would love to just go whenever I see a large cathedral or a Buddhist temple and I will just quietly go there and sit.

I don't need to do anything. And just for sitting there for five minutes, rejuvenate, refresh my mind so that I can just go out and then do things that I'm required to do. I think a real important distinction that you make though is that it's not a place that you go for your work and it's not a place that you go for being a family member. It's like it's a separate place contextually allowing yourself to separate from those roles

and just give you space. I think that's an important piece of this. Absolutely, yeah, I think we all need it. At home, there is a certain role we have to fulfill. You are father, you are mother, you are brothers. And at work, you are also fulfilling another very important role at work. You are boss, you are worker, you know, whatever. But in that space, in between space, you don't have to play the role. You can

just relax. You can just be nobody while appreciating the beauty around you. Yeah, the empty church that you were talking about, that resonates with me. I went to a small Catholic liberal arts college, I'm in Wisconsin, and I don't consider myself to be Catholic, but I would often go and just sit in that dark church late at night when there was nobody else there. The church is hundreds of years old, It's really beautiful inside. There's just

this peace and the stillness just from sitting in there. And you walk out even 10 minutes later, and you just feel totally different. I gotta find another place like that. RL There's so many in Europe. If you ever get to Europe, every little town has this There's somebody in Europe. If you ever get to Europe, every little town has this tremendous church that was built generationally. And there's this serenity to it when you go in, regardless of what religious faith it is. It's just remarkable. AC I like the coffee shop example too, but I've worked from coffee shops too much that whenever I set foot in one, I automatically go into work mode. Look for a comfortable chair in your local

park. Or if you like art, and if there's a specific painting you like, and then just going to your local museum and then standing in front of your favorite art, that becomes also another opportunity. I think knowing Mike, I think what they need to do is put a comfortable chair in his favorite fountain pin store. And that could be his happy place. Yeah, I could maybe talk him into doing that actually. What about when people are looking for that sort of neither,

but they still are at work and at home, but they do need some space there too. Do you have any advice? Then I would say that, you know, try to wake up early, earlier than all other members in your family and carve out that, you know, just 20 minutes, just for yourself, you know, nobody that you know just 20 minutes just for yourself you know nobody you know no one in your family is interfering you know with your quiet

morning time so just having that alone time you know at home just even if it's just 20 minutes you know that that will relax your mind. So waking up a little bit earlier than other people and just have your own me time. Yeah, I would argue honestly that my 30 minute meditation practice every day is that for me. Even though it's in my home, it's in a corner, nobody bothers me and it is a place for me to be alone.

And that's often in mindfulness practice, but sometimes untying knots as well. Absolutely. You can sit and meditate, or you can read scriptures, or you can read your favorite book, you know? You can pray, you can do whatever you need to do. You are doing it just for yourself. One of the things I like about the book is that

it covers a lot of sources of, you know, the book is called When Things Don't Go Your Way, but to me, in a lot of ways, it's addressing sources of unhappiness. And I don't know if that was the intention or not, but I feel like so often, when you become observant of yourself, the ultimate source of unhappiness

is usually your own motivations, thoughts, and obsessions over these things. And like for instance, there's a section on jealousy, there's a section on disappointment, and you really did a good job of unpacking this. But to me, after I finished the book, it really made me think about, well, what is the source of unhappiness?

Well, often it's my own expectations and unfair judgment of the world, for lack of a better word. Right, right. When we expect something and then it didn't go like the way I wanted, or like the way I thought it would. And that is often the case in our lives. So the title, When Things Don't Go Your Way, we feel a lot of disappointment and anger or sadness. And you may have low self-esteem because of that. But I do believe that those opportunity

is for us to learn about ourselves, learn about the situations. And then from that point on, you can actually grow. So rather than thinking that, just because I didn't get the promotion, just because I didn't get the house that you really wanted or the college that you really wanted to get in and yet you couldn't get it. Just don't feel discouraged, you know, because you never know. You really, really don't know in this life. This is just a mystery. Who can say that

this is just a mystery. Who can say that maybe all those people who didn't get to marry your first love and now you have husband and wife, you may say that, oh I'm glad that that relationship did not work out because I found better ones. I married another wonderful person in my life. So you really don't know. You cannot say, that is my only way to happiness. You don't know that. This episode of Focus is brought to you by Indeed. We're driven by the search for better, but when it comes to hiring, the best way to search for a candidate isn't to search at all. Don't search match with Indeed. If you need to hire, you need Indeed. Indeed is your matching and hiring platform with over 350 million global monthly visitors, according to Indeed data and a matching engine that helps you find quality candidates fast. So ditch the busy work and use Indeed for scheduling, screening, and messaging so you can connect with candidates fast. So ditch the busy work and use Indeed for scheduling, screening, and messaging so you can connect with candidates faster. And Indeed doesn't just help you hire faster.

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terms and conditions apply. Need to hire? You need Indeed. Our thanks to Indeed for the support of the Focus podcast and all of Relay FM. I mean, right before the break, you were talking about how when things don't go your way, that's not necessarily bad. And this is something I've been thinking a lot about lately.

And it's been coming at me from a lot of different directions. I read a book by a company where they kept wanting to, and the book was called Creativity, it was about Pixar, the people who made Toy Story and all that. And when the company was kind of growing, they kept thinking they were gonna sell it to IBM or they were gonna, every time they thought they had

the way they were gonna become wealthy and rich, it just didn't work. And they were so disappointed. But all those disappointments added them to being able to make beautiful movies. Or the parable of the Chinese farmer. those disappointments added them to being able to make beautiful movies or the, the parable of the Chinese farmer. I think, um, you're pro I'm sure you're probably familiar with it.

It's the idea. And I'm, I'm going to very summarize it. We'll put a link in the notes. Um, uh, the idea where the farmers, I don't remember the exact, you may want to help me out, but the farmer, uh, finds a horse and everybody says, Oh, that's great. And, and he's like, maybe it's great. And then his son falls off the horse and breaks his leg.

I mean, that's terrible. Your son broke his leg. And he's like, well, maybe. And then the conscriptor of the military comes through and they're taking all the young men to off to war, but they can't take the son because he's got a broken leg. And they go, oh, that's great. Your son didn't go to war.

And the thing is in the moment, so often when we get bad news, we don't really know if it's bad news or not, or if it's just one more step towards things. And I feel like that's something that somehow has gotten lost. It's something that I have to keep reminding myself of in my own life.

It's so easy to get so down when you don't get things that you want or you think that you deserve, or you did the work and it didn't work out but then it's so often that's just another step right? Right right you know with every success there is always the hidden cost right and then we you know don't think about we we don't know what those hidden costs are maybe you don't have any you know more family time and because you are so busy you know or your

your health you are losing good health and you may end up having some illness because you are overworking working all the the time. So even if you didn't get your promotions or whatever that you wanted initially, just be open. You never know what other opportunity you might have as long as your intention is to help other people and grow yourself and try to serve other people, the communities, and then I'm sure you'll be able

to have different kinds of opportunity. So this becomes an opportunity for you to practice compassion as well as resilience. Because before, maybe if you haven't experienced any failure in your life, it's easy to criticize other people who are not doing well. And you just think that, oh, they are just lazy. They didn't put enough hours into their work.

But when you are on the other... If you are having through, if you are going through your own failure, experience of failure, then you begin to see, ah, okay, yeah, it's much more complicated than I initially thought. And I feel connected to all those people who are suffering. And then your compassion increases because of that and then at the same time you know yourself and and that is rather than feeling that you you there's nothing you can do actually you find a way to stand up again and and and find different path so you learn to be resilient. I like the way you described that at the end there about you

have the opportunity to develop these skills because I have to be honest when you're talking about practicing resilience, it doesn't sound very fun. But I feel like if you understand the benefit that's gonna happen as a result, kind of coupled with the idea of zooming out that you were talking about earlier, that makes it, I don't want to say more tolerable, but kind of like you, you don't get as high, you don't get as low because you realize that this is a moment in time and it kind of evens out in the end and going through the thing that you don't want to have happen right now actually produces some positive character in the long run, but you don't think about that as you're going through it. People are very good at making a short-term plan,

but they are not very good at making a long-term plan that is, you know, 10 years and 20 years, you know, whatever you want to accomplish in your life. So I think it's important for us to remind ourselves that rather than just think about short-term basis, let's just step back and try to accomplish your bigger goal, whatever that is. So you don't have to be in a hurry, even if it doesn't work out exactly like you want it at this moment, because you will have another opportunity. And that's again, like kind of an ancient concept that should inform modern thinking in it. Because modern thinking to me is

short term, like we we judge ourselves and weigh ourselves on a very short term calendar and short term scale, like I had a bad day or I had a bad week, but we don't look at all the progress we've made over years. And I don't know why that is, but I feel like that's very common with people. And it's something we need to remind ourselves that isn't the way it's always been. Absolutely, yeah.

This is a long marathon, you know? The life we are having it's not a like 100 meter you know you have to and then that's that's the only time you have no you have a plenty of other time and at the same time you know there are all the other elements that is just as important as your work that is your relationship for example your relationship with your children, relationship with your partner, and with your friends, which are just as important. And oftentimes, people who are super successful, they tend to don't put so much effort in cultivating

good relationships, for example. So I think there's always some kind of trade-off in between Even if you didn't get what you wanted in return you might ended up having something, you know Other that is much more meaningful later on in your life Yeah, something that I think weighs into this we haven't really discussed I was so I was a lawyer for 30 years before I retired from that. And so I got to observe a lot of people with different ideas about how to live their lives.

And one of the observations I made was that a key component of this is, I think, the mindset that you're talking about, the ability to stay in the moment and to observe. But I also think ethical living, for lack of a better term, is a huge part of this. And I think that in observation, the people who live generally ethical lives

are just happier. And I think that that is, I don't know where I'm really going with this, but I feel like as we have this conversation, I feel like it's something we need to say. That's part of it. I think it is very important, what you just pointed out, because at the end, you want to have a good night's sleep.

Yeah. I think you wanna have a undisturbed, very peaceful, seven or eight hours of sleep every night. But when you have a lot of unethical, if you have committed a lot of unethical behavior, then it's going to wake you up in the middle of the night. Maybe you have to rely on sleeping pills. So if you led your life in a very if you led your life in a very, you know, in an ethical and there is nothing that, you know, necessarily worries you at night, then you will have a good health, which is important, you know. So I believe that one of the measurements of success is the quality of sleep that you have at night.

And for that end, you need to have integrity in your life. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what I wanna have integrity is, and that is my use of your time, because I feel like it's about time for you to probably go on your walk to your favorite coffee shop and have your moment of solace.

And I feel like we've taken more than enough of your time. But Hyman, thank you so much for coming on today. Mike and I are both big fans of what you're doing. And like I said, you know, translated books, often they don't work as well in English, right? You know, you wrote it in a different language, but these books are fantastic. They're delightful and very thought inspiring.

And thank you for sharing them with us. Thank you. Thank you so much. And if we ever listens, may you be happy, may you be healthy, and may you be always protected wherever you go. Thank you. Thank you.

And we're gonna put a link to your website and your books along with some of the other things we talked to and have a wonderful day. Okay, great. Thank you. Well, Mike, that was a really fun conversation. It wasn't as productivity focused as a lot of our guests, but I also feel like a lot of the messages he shared have absolute application to people trying to live

a more focused life. Agreed. As a non-Buddhist, I still think there's a lot of good stuff in these books and those wisdom drops, like I mentioned, continue to chew on those. Feel like if all you did was get the quotes, it's still worth taking a look at these. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of stuff in Buddhism

that I think is helpful to anyone. I always joke, I learned Zen meditation practices and we were given partners. It was at a local Zen center. And my partner was a Catholic nun and she just wanted to get better at meditation. So like people are always kind of exploring those traditions because they have something to offer.

And I didn't want to get into it with Haydn but I feel like there's so much commonality between a lot of Zen and Buddhist thought and like the ancient Greeks and Aristotelian and Stoicism. There's just a lot of common themes there. And I think that there is an underlying wisdom to it that we could all use. So either way, enough of that spiritual talk.

Let's wrap up. We are the Focus Podcast. You can find us at relay.fm slash focus. Hey, if you want to join to the membership, Deep Focus, we would love to have you. You know, there's really no mystery. Podcasting revenue is way down. You know, but we love making the show.

We're gonna continue making the show, but if you wanna help support us, you could. Deep Focus gets you an ad-free version of the show and an extended version of the show. In fact, today's Deep Focus, Mike and I are gonna talk about podcasts, talk about getting meta. But either way, thank you again for listening

and our thanks to Hayman for coming on and sharing his story and some of his wisdom with us. Thanks to our sponsors, NomNom, Indeed, and Squarespace. We're the Focus Podcast Gang, and we'll see you next time.