Focused - 52: You Can't Be What You Can't See with Ann Shen

Episode Date: July 24, 2018

Ann Shen started her career as a grant writer and realized the ladder she was climbing was leaning against the wrong wall. She then took the courageous step of going to art school and starting over again. Since then, with a combination of skill, grit, and newfound faith in herself, she's gone a long way as a Free Agent.

David Sparks and Mike Schmitz spent their careers working for the establishment. Now, they've had enough. They've rebelled against the status quo and are now seeking success on their terms. They are free agents. Welcome back to Free Agents, a podcast about being an independent worker in a digital age. I'm Mike Schmitz, and I'm joined by my fellow co-host, Mr. David Sparks. Hello, David. Hey, Mike. Today we have one of our interview shows.

And David, I'll let you introduce today's guest because I know you know Ann personally. Okay, I will. But before I do, just a couple notes for the listeners. We talked, I think, two weeks ago that we were going to eventually move the Facebook group over to a discourse forum and get off yucky Facebook. And we said, that'll be months away. Well, it's already done. So if you're interested in joining the discussion, head over to talk.macpowerusers.com. We've taken a little lease out at the Mac Power Users server, and so the free agents are there. Go ahead and sign in.

It's a great group if you like Mac Power Users stuff, but it's also a great group for free agents. And there's already an active conversation going on there. So I'd really love having you all join and log into that and share your thoughts. So check that out at talk.macpowerusers.com. And also, since we last were on the air, I launched a new podcast. It's called The Automators that I do with Rose Orchard. It's at relay.com slash automators. And it's all about making your computer do your work for you. And Rose and I have done something really special, I think. The show kind of goes deep, but it gives you all the resources.

We give you the scripts that you can just download and run on your computer to kind of automate things. The very first episode was about how to automate your calendar, and I'm pretty proud of how it came out. So please go check it out. I'd really appreciate it if you subscribed and listened to that. I think it's something that falls right in the wheelhouse for free agents. Yeah, it's a great podcast.

You and Rose have done a great job on it. And I got a lot out of the calendars automation episode that you did. And what I really like about it is that you include all of the scripts and the things that you would need. So you don't need to go apply this yourself. If you're thinking, well, it's great to talk through these scripts and things

on a podcast, but it'd be hard to recreate that. You don't have to worry about it because you and Rose do a great job of giving the resources to people so they can just plug them in and use them. Yeah. We're like a teacher that gives you not only the exam, but the answers to the exam during the class. So you're good analogy. But anyway, I'm, I'm very excited uh today about our guest welcome to the show and shin hi now ann and i met um out of all places the disney gallery in downtown disney um my wife and i are big fans of some of the artists that do some of the disney artwork and that's a whole nother thing but um ann um, and is one of the artists that we,

we like, and we have some of her work hanging in our house and just talking to Anne, I, I was listening to her story about how she had a jobby job and the economy went bad. And then she decided that she needed to, uh, to follow her passion project. So she went to art school and, uh, we're going to hear the whole story from Anne herself. But it's a very interesting story. Anne went through some, you know, she took a risk. She stuck her neck out there, as Mike would say, she bet on herself. And I think she won. So welcome to the show, Anne. Thank you so much for having me, David and Mike. So much for having me, David and Mike. So let's talk a little bit about that.

You got out of college and you got your big job and I guess you probably got your apartment, moved out of your parents' home. And what happened? So my only goal after college, I went to UCSD and graduated with a degree in writing, was to not move home. So I moved to LA and got a job and then got another job when that job didn't work out and then got another job. And I was just working for three years as a professional writer, like grant writer, not creative writer, and just really deeply unhappy. After I'd switched all, first I thought it was, oh, it was this job. So I kept switching jobs. And then when I got to my third job, I was like, well, what else do I, is this all there is that would just be a different job, but the same kinds of problems. I just was bored and not interested in the type of work and the office politics and all the stuff that goes on inside an office.

And so then I started to think about what I was actually spending all my time doing when there was downtime at work. I was just reading design and art blogs and looking on Etsy because Etsy had just started. And that's what I was really interested in. And at the time, my boyfriend, who's now my husband, was going to CalArts. And he was at an art school, which is the first time I'd ever known anyone who went to an art school. And so I'd visit him on campus and see all these other people who were making art their profession.

And it was something that I'd always loved, but I didn't know how to bridge that from something that I like doing to a career. And I grew up in Orange County, which is a pretty conservative place where I didn't really meet a lot of people who were passionate about creative fields. You were in the wrong part of Orange County. I was just, you know, it's a very different place when I was growing up there than it is now. Yeah. Like when I was growing up there, it was very just like our high school, like had a ton

of science classes and AP science classes. And then there'd be like an art class that the slacker kids would take. I was really into photography because we had a great photography teacher in our own dark room. So I was able to express my creativity through that. And I actually minored in photography in college. But other than that, I didn't really have any experience or know anyone who did it. And I think that's something that's super important to have the people who can expand your belief and of what is possible and what you can do because seeing is believing. Like you can't be what you can't see that very famous quote from Marian Edelman, right? It's, I totally believe in that. So I was getting expanded in my early 20s of what was possible. I think living in LA helped with that too, being in just a much more diverse and creative city.

And so seeing that, realizing what I was spending all my time doing, and then my mom reminded me that I actually always wanted to go to art school, but I didn't know how to put together a portfolio or any of that. So I started taking extension classes at an art school that was close to where I was living. And, you know, extension classes to kind of like figure out if I wanted to do art, like just classes like figure drawing, color theory, watercolor painting. And when I took my first figure drawing class, I actually made my husband go with me because I was too shy to ever draw a person. I could draw kind of, but drawing people is a whole different thing. So he came with me and then I just totally fell in love with it and started putting together a portfolio. So I started taking those classes in January of 2008, the year that the recession happened, not knowing what was going to happen that year, but knowing that I needed to just start

exploring things outside of my job. And I decided to put together a portfolio that year and apply to art school. And I was just going to keep applying until I got in because the art school I decided to put together a portfolio that year and apply to art school. And I was just going to keep applying until I got in because the art school I decided to go to was Art Center College of Design in Pasadena. And I decided that because it was a more serious program for like the average age of the student there was 23. And it was a school that you could just go through every term straight and just come out in two and a half years. And so I was just going to keep applying until I got in. I put together a portfolio by August. I met with the admissions counselor.

And then I actually got in the first time. And I got a scholarship. So I decided to leave just as the recession was hitting. And that actually turned out to be better anyway, because then interest rates were really low. And I never had any student loan debt, thankfully, from the first time I went to school. But this was a huge deal because I was going from never having debt in my life to suddenly taking on a private school tuition myself because I put myself through school. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting going back a little bit where you're talking about,

you know, you get out of college and you get the job, you know, the thing that you've been working for. I just had a conversation with a friend of mine. He's 24 years old and he graduated college last year. He just got his first real job. And him and I took a walk together and you could just see how frazzled he was. And so we just kind of verbalized it together. It's like you spend all this time in your life getting really good at being a student, you know, learning the AP courses, getting through college. And that's all your whole skill set is dedicated to getting good at being a student. And then at some point they put a funny hat on your head. They give you a piece of paper.

And then you go out into the world, and he already is saying, is this it? Is this what I've been, you know? And I said, well, you don't even know yet. It's a whole new set of skills. There are politics. There's all these things that you have no training for, and you've just been dropped into it. And for some people, I think for everybody, that first six months is going to be hard. And for some people, they're going to adapt to it

and they're going to enjoy it. And some people, they're going to realize this isn't what I want to be doing for the rest of my life. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I want to go back to something that you said where you were just going to take a class and you were going to see if you liked it, I think is how you put it. And I think that's an important point because a lot of times you can get stuck in a job that you quote unquote hate. And you've always got this thing in the back of your mind like, well, my passion is this. I really want to do this for a living. And you can't figure out how you're supposed to get there. And a lot of times you can make it a bigger leap in your head than it really is because the thing that's going to get you there is the small thing that you did. You know, you took one class to see if you like it.

And then from there, you know, the path kind of unravels before you. Is that your experience? Like what was the process? And then how long did it take between like, I wonder if I can do this to, oh my gosh, I'm doing this. I, gosh, you said a lot of great things there. I think what's funny is I didn't mention that when I was in school, I wanted to be like an author and I wanted to write fictional novels. And so I had novels that I was always working on and that was what I was supposed to be working on outside of my job. But I kind of lost my passion for it because I'd been kind of on that path for at least four years in college. And even before that, I was always writing stories. And it just kind of got to a point where I just that well felt dry.

So then that's why I decided to try another angle, like try something else where I could express my creativity. That was something that I was interested in and just kind of let the writing kind of sit by, you know, just take the pressure off of something that I've been kind of pushing up against a wall and take a different route there. And so when I took that first class, I think it took me maybe just that first term. And I was like, you know what, I'm going to do this because I don't want to look for another job because this job is pretty much what I thought was a perfect job for me at the time. And it was just so many other things that I just didn't care for. And what I wanted to do was make my passion my full-time job

and not just something I did outside of work. Because at first I thought, oh, maybe I'll take some art classes. Maybe I'll start doing some drawings and paintings and put them on Etsy or something like what I was seeing people do. But then I realized for me, like you were saying, David, about being a really good student. For me, I realized like, okay, I respond really well in a structured environment where I have the space to work with a teacher under the guidance of a teacher and explore this and dedicate all that time to it. So that's why I decided to go to art school instead of just keep doing this as a side project. It takes guts though. Yeah, it definitely was really, really hard to make that decision, especially financially, just because

I, it was really hard for me to wrap my brain around that, taking out that amount of money and owing that for the rest of my life, or for the term of the loan. And then just taking that chance on myself. This was something that no one asked me to do, that no one expected of me. I I had already, you know, gone to college, which was my parents' hopes for me. And it was something that I didn't have to do. Like, and that was what I learned. I had to start figuring out what I had to do for myself, like outside of what a syllabus or a structure or a path laid out for you is. It sounds like your mom was pretty supportive though, because you said your mom had said you'd always talk about art school. Or am I right? Um, she was really supportive of me

going back to school. But like early on, when I was really young, she was not supportive of me becoming an artist. And I think that really set me back for a while. Because, you know, you, for a while because, you know, you, especially just as like a first child of immigrants, it was just very like, they've sacrificed so much for me. I need to make sure I get a secure job so that they don't have to worry about me and that I can support them. And so at that time, it was just like, I should go to a UC, you know, which is a great university and get a degree and be able to get a job from then on. And my parents were very like, you could do whatever you want, but it wasn't until I was, you know, working and supporting myself, like since I graduated and I was still really unhappy all the time that my mom was like, maybe you should try this thing that you loved

like when you were little. It is so hard as a parent, I'll tell you. Because Mike's got five kids, I've got two. But mine are a little further along. And I can tell you with my oldest one, like in high school, she was on the video team at school and they went and won national competition. She loved everything to do with

storytelling and creating video. And when she went to college, I just thought it'd be natural. That's what she did. And instead she went to the more secure major, you know, which I knew wasn't her. It's just the opposite problem your mom had. It's like, I wanted to tell her, well, why aren't you doing this thing that I know you love? But as a parent, you don't want to push them. You know, you want, it's their life. And then a couple of years into college, she realizes, oh no, she does want to do the video thing. And now she's at Cal State LA in the video program and everything's good now. But I feel like maybe if I had pushed her at the beginning, she would have just done this from the beginning. But you know, it's really hard.

You just don't know what's the thing to do is. It's tough. Yeah. And I think a lot of times people have to find that path themselves. Like if I had gone to art school right after, like if I had known and gone to art school, because my mom had asked me if I wanted to transfer to OSHA in high school, which is the Orange County High School of the Arts. And my other daughter's going to that school. Yeah. And I was at the time, again, like just, I don't know if, I think she should have pushed me to do it because at 14, I don't think I was the best person to make the decision of like, oh, I don't want to go to a new school and have to make all new friends again.

That's what I'm thinking. And the unknown is always scary, right? Yeah. And so, especially to kids, right? And so it was just like, maybe if she had done that and I had gone to art school sooner, my life would be different. But at the same time, I always loved writing as well. And having a writing degree helped get me to where I am now, which is now I write and illustrate my own books that are published by Chronicle Books.

now I write and illustrate my own books that are published by Chronicle Books. Well, so now I want to jump forward a little bit because the impression I get is once you got into art school, you were a woman on a mission. It was more like, what did I do every single day? Because as soon as I got into art school, I was in school with like a variety of students and there were quite a few students who are because it was another bachelor's program it was quite a lot of students who were straight out of high school who were 18 who were extremely skillful draftsmen already and we'd be in these foundation classes where we're drawing and painting with oil painting and traditional mediums and I'm just just like, what am I doing? Because these 18 year olds are drawing

like masters and I am barely, barely keeping up. And it was just, it was a major struggle the entire time. And even in my last year, when I finally started to get more comfortable, And even in my last year, when I finally started to get more comfortable, it was still just a struggle as we went further along our path and started developing our personal portfolios for when we were going to graduate. A lot of the teachers there are just old school. I'm going to white male teachers from a different time and era of illustration who just didn't understand my work. I would do a lot of work that was, you know, I explored a lot of different styles and a lot of different mediums. And anytime I did work that I felt was closer to what I was interested in, which I guess would be considered more soft or feminine or not as serious subjects. Because there it was like the New York school of serious illustration, like editorial illustrations that were conceptual

and thoughtful, which are beautiful, but it wasn't what I was super interested in. And so I constantly felt like a failure because I wasn't doing work that ever rose to the top of the class. And even when I was about to graduate, so then I just got in the mode of like, okay, I'm just going to do what this class asks of me. So I still graduated with distinction by the end, but it was more that I realized what I wanted to do, I was just going to have to do on my own, like by posting on my blog or blogger at the time. And just sharing like the work I liked and finding my audience online because I knew they existed because it was the people who shopped on Etsy and read the same blogs I did. And I started sending my work out to those people instead. And at the end,

like I had this review where they looked over all my work and it included a zine that's now my first book, Bad Girls Throughout History. And these teachers, these three teachers who I had were, I'd never had them as like my actual instructors, but they were just, you know, in the department and they reviewed. And they said, like, we don't get this project. It doesn't make any sense. And they said, like, we don't get this project. It doesn't make any sense. And that's when I really knew, like, okay, like, I really got to seek out my people, my audience. And I found that in teachers, like other teachers that I had had, too. And then I would just take projects to them, specifically outside of class, to be like, I'm working on this.

What do you think? Last episode, we talked about my struggles with imposter syndrome and i can only imagine being a 24 year old student surrounded by 18 year olds who've been doing this seemingly for their entire lives and everything that you're doing just doesn't fit into the mold i can definitely see how that can be very discouraging. How did you push through that? Or was there a tipping point where you clicked into your authentic voice, I guess, although it's really your unique style and you believe that, yes, this is something that is worthwhile when people around you are telling you, no, you're not good enough. You're not doing it

the right way? I think it was when I, so my last year, I actually started to apply for internships because I knew I needed to get it. I wanted to get a design job outside of like once I was done with school because I knew there was so much more to learn, you know, from my first experience of going to school. There was so much more to learn about working in the field, right? So I actually applied for a bunch of internships, and I ended up getting three internships, and I did all of them. And that was my turning point when I realized, whereas like a lot of my fellow students were not doing internships or not getting hired. And that was my turning point where I realized, okay, here's my advantage that I've worked professionally before.

So I have that experience and I know how to present myself and I know how to present my work and all these other skills that I gathered from going to a large university and having worked before. And so that was my turning point where I was like, okay, my work is viable. People want to hire me and I'm going to be able to get work. So it doesn't really matter what all these other people, all these other teachers say anymore. It sounds like you had this underlying self-confidence that you probably wouldn't have had when you were 18.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I think going through like all the jobs, it felt like in dealing with a lot of difficult work situations where I would, you know, talk to even the VPs about things, just inappropriate, like work things that we've probably all faced in our work experiences. And just having like the VP that I was working with say, well, that's just how it is. And I just was so frustrated and over that, that when I decided to take control of my life and make that leap to invest in myself to go back to school, I think that's when I started just really trusting myself. I like that. Regardless of your situation, we can all relate to that where somebody's telling you that's just the way it is. Yeah.

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And they're telling you the stuff you have doesn't make sense to us. But you've got, one of the things you were doing at the time is you were looking at the market. I mean, you actually were looking at Etsy and you were looking at this untapped group of people that may like your art that the art schools hadn't caught up with yet. So how did you tap into that once you got out of art school? Gosh, well, I pretty much tapped into it while I was in art school with one of my very first internship was with this company called Bando. That's an accessories and kind of lifestyle company now. It's a lot bigger now than it was when I first worked there. But it was a company that I had loved and followed along on their blog. And I think I had seen one of their accessories in a fashion magazine. And so it was

definitely the audience and what I was interested in and the audience that would be interested in my work. And when they hired me, I was like, this is great. And that working with them really helped expand my whole, kind of affirmed and expanded my perspective of like defining what my audience was. It affirmed my belief that this was my audience. And then it helped me, like my boss helped me realize in the way they did things, just everything really helped me understand how I could do this on my own. Because it was a company that was started by two women on their own. And, and so you, and then you did that and you did two other internships. Did you ever

go to work for somebody as an artist or did you just go out on your own? Yes. Actually, after I graduated, I got a print design job at FITM here in LA and I just designed the collateral that was for the college. And that was actually great because it was a year and a half that was basically an MFA in graphic and print design that I got paid for. Yeah. And talk about once again, putting the pressure on yourself, going to a design school to do artwork. Yeah. You just always fit them as a fashion design school in LA.

So you just weren't messing around, Anne. I just needed to get a job and that was listed and they called me in. I mean, I applied to a lot of jobs and they called me in and it was a great fit for what I wanted at that time. And then after that, I actually got recruited to work at Mattel as a packaging designer for their girls dolls. How did you get that invitation? packaging designer for their girls dolls. How did you get that invitation? Um, they found my profile on LinkedIn.

It was like a, uh, what are they called? Like an agency that head hunts for people with specific skills. Sure. Yeah. And were, were you doing your independent stuff throughout this period or?

Yes. Okay. Yes. So I was doing craft shows at the time. In 2012, pretty much, when I started working full-time, I also started doing craft shows because I wanted to keep doing my personal work. I had already started doing freelance illustration work, too, for publications while I was in school, and I kept doing that as well. Um, like moonlighting and doing that throughout the whole time I had a full-time job in house too. And doing the craft shows enabled me to continue to do personal work that and explore personal work that is largely the work I do now. The work I do now actually doesn't look anything like the work I came out of school with. And, um, doing the craft shows gave me a deadline that I had to produce something by this date, at least, because I knew if I didn't have something that would hold me

accountable like that, publicly like that, I wouldn't feel as much pressure to do it when I'm really tired at the end of the day. And then I kept doing freelance illustration work because I just felt like if I stopped, I wouldn't be able to pick it up as easily again. And like one job always leads to another. So I just kept taking them and gaining that experience and building my portfolio outside of work. I didn't know if I was going to keep illustrating, but because my day job was also mostly graphic design, I was able to do my illustration work through the freelance and the shows. Yeah. All the nerds like me call it the side hustle, you know? And yeah, exactly. And it sounds like you've been working on the side hustle ever since you got

out of art school. Yeah. I opened up my own Etsy shop then. And, um, and then was doing like selling products and prints in addition to doing the freelance. Actually, that's like two separate side hustles. So how were you, how were you splitting your time between all that? I mean, i just didn't really i think i was in the mode of just working all the time since being in school because it was a very intense program yeah um i was just used to not having weekends or friends or doing that much fun stuff it helps that my husband is also an artist so like if we went somewhere like say we go to disneyland like both of us would bring our sketchbooks and you treat that also as a drawing day yeah in downtime and

stuff like that so like our time spent together was always in the creative realm anyway is there anything that you do to make sure that you protect the golden goose and you don't don't burn out because i mean like creative work it's great to have the deadlines that you protect the golden goose and you don't burn out? Because I mean, like creative work, it's great to have the deadlines that you can push through and create something. But it seems to me like if you're just constantly pushing all the time, eventually you get to a point where you just can't do it anymore. Yeah, that's such a great question, because that's something that I really ran into last year when I started developing so many health problems, like just minor health problems,

but annoying enough that I couldn't really do my work anymore. And then I realized, oh, I really need to explore this work-life balance. And so I started a regular practice of meditation, of working out regularly, like getting outside of my house. So now I work full time for myself. I didn't mention that, but I left a full-time job and have been working for myself for four years now. And so last year I started like regular practices of actually like taking care of myself. And that includes like my mental health and starting to see a therapist to deal with some of the other things that are difficult about being like a solopreneur that I can't really, I can talk to other people about, but it's really hard to, it feels self-indulgent almost to be complaining about this like dream job basically that I have.

So it helps to have a professional to talk to about my anxieties and things that are more difficult. Because yeah, you're right. Like creativity is actually like what my skill is like beyond how I can manifest it through either writing or through art. Like what we can think of and what we create with our minds is like the real golden goose, like you were saying. You know, I think it's easy to run into that problem. And I don't think you're alone that a lot of people who create their dream job successfully, you know, they realize they get there. There are still problems in life that you have to deal with and it's still hard. And even though it's your dream job, you've got to maintain your dream job. You've got to hold on to it and not make yourself crazy.

You are not alone. I think that is something we've heard from a lot of listeners and guests on this show over the years. Yeah. And I think it's something that we don't hear or read about enough because there's so many books and shows and things about starting, right? Like how to start your side hustle so you can get to wherever you want to go. And then there are not a lot about how once you get there and you're trying to get to the next level and you're trying to sustain and maintain, what does that look like on a day-to-day basis? How does that feel? What are the unique problems to that stage in your career?

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. That's one of the goals we have here is to help people with that. So you said for four years now you've been out on your own. Yeah. When did you realize that you were going to quit the day job and turn the side hustle into the main thing? the main thing? So I reached a point where I really was working, commuting, and then coming home to work on my freelance projects and personal projects. Actually, at that point, I didn't even have time for personal projects, like 25 hours a day. It was really taking a toll

on me because the job that I was in, I really enjoyed, but it was like an eight to 10 hour day, um, plus a three hour commute. And then I would come home and, and my freelance was picking up because at that point I'd been working for five years freelancing. And so it was getting to the point where I was getting steady work. And so I was always working on something outside of work for another client. And my work was kind of putting pressure on me to stop doing that. But in the meantime, like I see people around me getting laid off who had been worked, working there for 20 years so that they could hire people who are younger or just downsize in general, just because it's a corporation and that's how corporations run. And so I was just like not comfortable giving up this alternate source of income that while it wasn't what I

was relying on, like in the end, my freelance work at that time, I just put any extra money into paying off my loans. But it was getting to the point where I was like, I think if I just put all my time into this, I'd be able to make just as much as I was making at my day job than if I was doing both and just miserable. And also I had tried that whole year to actually get another job that was closer to home, like similar to what I was working in, in consumer products, which there are a lot of studios around here, but I just couldn't, I kept meeting with recruiters and meeting with managers and they all loved my work, but they were just like, we just don't have the right position

for you. Either something would be like, oh, that's below your skill set or that's, you know, you don't have the specific skill set needed for this one job. And it was super frustrating to me because honestly, I never had a hard time. I was very fortunate that I never had a hard time getting another job. And so, and this was like eight months before I was like, maybe I should work for myself. And so I started talking to my friends who did work for themselves to be like, how did you do it? How did you start?

Do you think I can do it? And talking to my husband, talking to my parents and everybody else was like, yes, you should do that. You should absolutely do that. Except for me, I was like the last person to believe that I could do that. And it was finally like, so that whole year I was looking and then finally October of that year, I had decided I was going to do it. I actually got a literary agent and I couldn't do anything with her because I just didn't

have the time to sit down and write a book proposal. And I was just like, you know what? I need to leave this job. I saved up. I made a plan. I had a two or three month exit plan where basically I saved up X amount of money that I needed to save up and felt comfortable with having in my savings that would cover the next few months in case nothing happened. I had signed up for shows for the next year that were tent poles throughout my year that I knew brought me X amount of money because I'd been doing them for the last five years. And so with kind of that rough plan in hand, I quit my job in October.

And then I went to Paris for my 30th birthday. And then I came back and was like starting a new era in my life. It's interesting, though, that it took you eight months of rejection to actually consider it yeah right and that i was the last person who was like everyone i asked i was like i think i'm thinking about maybe working for myself everyone was like yeah you should why are you not don't feel bad it took me 22 years. So I think I still win. I just never pictured, I think among other things, it was just, I never, I didn't think I would like working by myself. Like I'm a very social person. I liked working with teams. I like working collaboratively. So I didn't think I would enjoy being alone,

but I actually love my like 40 hours a week by myself that i have with my husband's at work because my studio is in my house yeah so what was the biggest fear you had when you left that you know oh my gosh um that i would fail and have to go crawling back to a job that was no longer fulfilling and everybody like when i left a lot of people were like oh okay so your husband's gonna take you to Paris and I was like no I'm taking us to Paris with the money I made or like even family members are like oh okay so you're like quitting to become a house wife or you know and I was just like with those people I, okay, that kind of drove me even more to be like, I can't wait to show these people how wrong they are. Yeah.

But yeah, my greatest fear was that I would be, I wouldn't get any, like the calls would stop coming. That was my biggest fear. And how long did it take you once you went out on your own to wish you had done it sooner? Oh gosh. I try not to look back and think about that. I'm just glad I did it. That's healthy. I wish I wasn't like that. Well, there are a lot of other things I look back on and spend my time turning over, but that wasn't something that I wanted to dwell on. I feel like you just have to trust the

timing of your life. And for me, that was the right time for me to leave. I like that. I think that's really smart. I mean, we look at it in season. I've come to the idea of seasons. You have seasons in your life. Yeah, that too. You got to that place and you got out. And you've been doing it successfully for four years. You have not had to go crawling back to your old boss. Yeah, thank God. I bet you've learned a little bit along the way. Yeah, definitely. What was the biggest surprise to you when you went out on your own? a surprise to you when you went out on your own? How unlimited your potential can be when you're not trapped in a job with a definition and description. What do you mean by that? I was really surprised by my earning potential. I had made a goal like my first year out,

just because I think you could tell by now I'm very type A and very goal oriented. I made a goal that I would make just as much as I made in my in-house job, my salary, my in-house job, my first year freelancing. So I did everything I could to make sure that that happened. And that included expanding my product categories. That included expanding the type of work I did beyond freelance illustration, exploring, always learning, exploring different avenues of making money through my work. about creativity and the creative business. And I had heard, I forgot from where, but like that if you're going to have your own business that you need to have at least five streams, five different streams of revenue. And so I kept thinking, okay, I have to set up five different legs because that is how I'm going to be able to sustain this business. I can't make every, every job for me is not going to be a freelance client going forward because I can't work from like check to check and expect that to count on that, right?

Because what if I got sick or what if I got hurt or what if I just don't want to work on project to project to project forever waiting from check to check, right? Yeah. And so I started doing work with galleries, started doing licensing work and, you know, did that book proposal. And that actually turned out to be the most amazing experience of my life. And it was something that I had always wanted. Like I said earlier, like I always wanted to be an author and it was a project that I was really passionate about. And I kept working on that project those four years after school too, where I kept taking

it to craft shows that had been a gallery show. I had done a second volume, made calendars, little products like that. And that actually, I sold that as my first book. And just the sale of that was more than my salary at my first job before I had gone to art school. And that was Bad Girls Throughout History? Yes. Yeah. That had to feel great, right?

Yeah. And I sold that. So I left my job in October. I didn't have any freelance jobs lined up, actually. I only had one show lined up in November that I was going to do when I got back. And then I actually got a freelance job, like kind of a long-term freelance job for a couple months when I was doing that. Or from that show, because I ran into someone I used to work with at one of my first internships. And then I finally wrote my book proposal.

We sent it in April, and then we sold it the next week. Wow. Yeah, which was just insane because I didn't expect that. I had been prepared to wait for weeks, maybe months. And it was incredible. I bet it felt pretty good. Yeah. To all you freelancers out there, you know how important it is to make smart decisions for your business. Well, our friends at FreshBooks can save you up to 192 hours with their cloud accounting software for freelancers that is ridiculously easy to use. By simplifying tasks like invoicing, tracking expenses, and getting

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a shot. FreshBooks is offering an unrestricted 30-day free trial for listeners of this show. No credit card required. All you have to do is go to freshbooks.com slash free agents and enter free agents in the how did you hear about a section. That's FreshBooks.com slash free agents and enter free space agents in the how did you hear about a section. Thanks to FreshBooks for their support of free agents and all of RelayFM. I'm going to go back to something that you said a little bit ago, and I forget exactly how you phrased it, but you basically said that you were surprised about the potential, kind of the

earning potential is how I heard it, that you have. And I think that's really interesting because when you're thinking about making the leap, you probably don't think of yourself in this narrow niche, which is where you end up and where you provide the most value and where you get compensated. But a lot of times, and I think going back to the point where kids are scared of the unknown, I think a lot as a parent myself, I think parents can look at it that way too. It's like, oh, you're going to be an author or you're going to be an illustrator. And you kind of take a high level approach to, well, authors or illustrators, the really successful ones do this, but success isn't what that person did. Success is finding your own niche. And then that's the thing. You don't know how deep that niche can go in whatever

market is yours. Yeah, absolutely. When I did this project, Bad Girls Throughout History, I actually created it because I was struggling in art school, struggling looking like I felt so lost because there's this path that you're supposed to do in school and I wasn't following it. And I had taken this huge risk both with, you know, with my time and with my money to make this change. And now I'm suddenly not even doing it right. And then we had this project where we just had to make something and make 10 of it. And so I decided to do a zine

because I grew up in the 90s with a lot of zines and like Riot Grrrl and stuff like that. And I decided to actually do Bad Girls Throughout History because I read an article about Ada Lovelace, who is the world's first computer programmer. And it just really struck me because I thought about how hard it must have been to be the first person, much less the first woman, to do something that's never been done before. And how many people must have been like, what are you doing? Like, this doesn't make any sense what you're doing, which is exactly what my teacher said to me. And so that really, and just doing the research for that project and finding more women who

were the first to do something and the first or the first female to do something different than what their society expected of them in all sorts of different ways, really just inspired me and kept me motivated. And this was in 2009 that I started this project. And then the people who I would meet at shows who responded to it, really responded to it and would be like, oh, do you also know about this person or that person? And so that kind of kept that fire going, even though it was never a huge success. Like in terms of my table, it was never the biggest seller. That's what I mean by huge success, but it still sold steadily because it found its audience. And it was a subject that I was really passionate about because it was the thing that I was looking for myself. I was looking for people who did things differently

and trusted themselves and like how they did that, like how they had that moment where they were like, I'm just going to do it anyway. I was just really interested in that. And so when that project sold in 2015, I was still getting editors who were like, we don't get this project. And then we got a dozen editors who did get it, which is great. And then the editor who we had a couple bids, but the editor who I ended up working with, they just really trusted me with my vision of what I wanted the book to be. And by the time it came out in 2016, it was one of the first books in what I would call now a genre of historical women books.

Yeah. It seems very authentic. I think that's the key to its success. You're a woman who didn't fit in a box, so you wrote a book about other women who didn't fit in a box. Yeah. And I think that's what I realized, like, oh, the thing that people respond to the most are going to be things that I'm looking for the most too. And then I find a solution for it, create a solution, create my solution too. It's a, it's a great story. And well, you know, kind of going back to the nuts and bolts piece of the, you know, the five legs of your chair, you really, I mean, I think that makes sense. I mean, you know, like I met you in the context of the stuff you did for Disney, but you don't want to do all your work for Disney because you never know when they'll stop calling

you. Yeah. I mean, that would just be like the scary thing of working a job again. Like I had to reframe my perspective about quitting a job or I was having a conversation with a friend and she was like, think of how scary it is just to rely on one place for all your source of livelihood. And I never thought of a job that way because when we think of a job, to us, like growing up in this society, it was like, oh, you get a job because that's security. You always have a paycheck every week. But when she said that to me, I was like, that's absolutely true because every job I've

been in, I see people being laid off around me and they have nothing else because they've worked at that job for 20 years. And I even experienced that like when I, the second year of when I was freelancing, my husband, so we had made this plan, like he works in house, he's an animator. And so he had been working at a job for five years. So it seemed steady. And so he was going to keep working at his job in-house because that's, you know, what a partnership is. And I was going to take this risk to go freelance. And if anything happened, you know, there's always the safety net that we have his income. But then he actually lost his job because his company was, you know, bought by a CEO that bamboozled everybody and stopped paying everyone and disappeared.

And that left us, he was unemployed for four months and I was the person bringing in money. And I was like, oh my God, this is the worst thing that could happen in my second year of freelancing. But then I realized the whole thing that prompted me to freelance was that I wanted to make sure I had control of how I could make money or at least could control, had experience being able to provide for us in other ways. And when he stopped working, he stopped making money. Like he had unemployment, but that was nothing compared to what his salary was. Right. And I was just like, wow, like it really is scary to depend on one thing for all your money yeah and obviously and to go back to your point when you're working for a company

you know as much about the future prospects of that company as they decide to share with you which may be very little yeah Yeah, it is interesting. The, you know, the the idea that having a job for a big company is security is a little bit of a delusion. I know that there are some companies that actually take that very seriously and really try to hold on to their employees for a long time. for a long time, but I feel like that's less, it's more increasingly rare that most companies, whenever it makes sense for them to cut labor, they're going to cut labor. And being on your own, the good news is at least you know the good or the bad forecast. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. And you can figure out and get creative about other things to explore and different ways to keep hustling, basically. Yeah, that's it.

And I do think you're smart to have all these different business lines with your product. But when you said earlier you wanted to match your income in the first year, was that because you wanted the money or was it because you wanted to prove to people that it was feasible? Do you understand the difference? Yeah, I think it was more for myself to prove to myself that it was feasible. Yeah, I have the exact same feeling. And I think that's very common. Because I just wanted to see that it was a viable career to make a living that was comparable to what I was doing in health. Do you ever have that feeling, Mike?

Yeah, I still have that feeling. I'm still proving myself. I haven't hit the point yet where I can say, yeah, see, that was successful. I feel like every day I've got to go prove the naysayers wrong, but most of them are in my own head. Yeah, that's true. I mean, that still happens. Even now, like now that I've got to go, got to go prove the naysayers wrong, but most of them are in my own head. Yeah, that's true. I mean, that still happens. Even now, like now that I've done four years, now that my first book was extremely successful and my second book has been even more, I still am like, every time I'm like, I don't know, maybe it's over today. Yeah, I think that healthy, a little healthy skepticism is what gets you waking up early and keeps you getting back to the art table every day. Yeah. You can't become complacent, right?

Yeah. What's the best part for you of being independent? I mean, there's so many, the freedom. There's nothing like the freedom of being able to determine what my day is going to look like. I think what I hated the most about working in-house would be having to sit somewhere for eight hours a day or nine hours a day, really. And even if I was like, I work very efficiently. And so my first job towards the end, I got super bored because it was almost like a design terriatric home, I called it, because i would finish things and then i'd ask for more work and there just wasn't and they'd be like just you know relax for a minute and so then i just started you know getting on pinterest and getting on social media because i was just like what's this

what's that because i had time at work because i was just sitting there not doing anything. And I hated being punished for efficiency. Yeah. Yeah, that seems weird. But that's the way a lot of companies operate. It's based off of time, not value that you create. I think that's really smart. One of my mentors, quote unquote, guy who I read a lot and listen a lot to, Jim Rohn, said, work harder on yourself than you do on your job.

Great advice for any free agent. That is great advice. I wish I had heard that sooner. What's the hardest part about your job now? It's that mental self-talk that you guys kind of mentioned. It's not falling into that negative mental self-talk spiral that you can get into that is also called resistance in that war of art book that's the part that can get debilitating on days where i feel like oh nothing is happening nothing is coming

and then i feel like i'm washed up this is is it. This is all I've done. I had a good run. I got a good job now. Because I think like, obviously, there are times where you were saying there are seasons where things will be slow, or things will be crazy. And that's just, that's just getting used to like work. But the negative, being alone, like having to pep talk yourself up to do it again, when you really don't feel like it, that can be a major challenge or when you don't have the confidence to, I don't exactly call them nightmares, but I still have these vivid dreams where I'm putting on a suit and tie and going into a firm, a law firm.

And people want me to go to meetings and do stuff I don't want to do. And I wake up and I have this heightened breath. I'm kind of panicked a little bit. And I have to just breathe and remind myself that's not my life anymore. Yeah, I definitely have stress dreams like that. Do you guys watch Bob's Burgers? I don't, but I don't. Do you, Mike?

No, I don't watch a whole lot of TV. Well, anyway, there's a dream sequence where the main character does that too, because he owns his burger shop, but then they think they have to close, and he wakes up and he has to go to a cubicle and listen to people tell terrible jokes and sign birthday cards and all this stuff. Whenever I have those dreams, I just get out of bed and start working because I can't hold myself like, oh, I can't have that happen again. If a client gets an email from me at like four in the morning, they'll know what just happened. You had the Bob the burger dream again yeah it's just yeah and there

was something i think it was i was doing jury duty where i had to get up at a certain time and be somewhere every day right and i think i did it two days in a row and i said to my husband oh my god this is awful i have to get up at the same time every day and be somewhere yeah i know every day and he was like yeah that's what i do every day ruined for the ordinary yeah or just the fact that i feel like anybody that does this for any length of time becomes essentially unemployable i mean yeah i i call myself feral i'm feral now i can't go in and get dressed up and go outside every day at the same time. Well, I am very excited and happy that you made the choices you did because as a result, I've got some beautiful artwork hanging on my walls. Thank you so much.

And my daughters have read books about bad girls throughout history that I think is a kind of good thing. And we're so happy you came on to share your story with us today. What's the one bit of advice you would give somebody out there listening who wants to get started on this journey? Gosh, I have so much to say. Okay, give two bits then. Okay, believe in yourself. I know that's super cliche, but like you can tell from my story, it took me so much longer to believe in myself than it should have. And you really just have to have that faith and trust yourself that you're going to get it done, whatever it is that your passion is or that you want to do. And then do it.

And then the second thing is, I think when you're looking at a career path or something that you might want to do, you might spend so much time looking for answers or looking for models that you forget that you are actually the one who's in control of creating that path for yourself. For all the things that I wanted to do and the way that I made it happen, it was so different than all the people I was reading the stories of. And the thing that is going to make you stand out and give you a sustainable career or whatever you're looking for is not going to look like what someone else already did. That's great advice.

I agree. That is great advice. Again, go support Anne Shen. You can find her at anneshenn.com, A-N-N hyphen S-H-E-N dot com. You'll find some beautiful artwork that she has made in all sorts of genres, and her books are there as well

and are you active on any social media we should tell people to check out yes i am on instagram and on twitter as and danger a-n-n-d-a-n-g-e-r oh i like that dangerous fits the bad girls theme right there you go there you go and we are the free agents you can find us at relay.fm slash free agents uh this is episode 52 so you can find show notes with links to ann's work there you can also find us on twitter at free agents fm and please do go sign up for the um the discourse forum for free agents it's at talk.macpowerusers.com. Did I miss anything, Mike?

No, sounds great. Thanks again to our sponsors, Hover and Fresh Books, and we will see you all in a fortnight. Bye, everybody. Thank you.