Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Alma 13-16 Part 2 • Eva Witesman • June 24 - 30 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: June 19, 2024

Dr. Eva Witesman continues examining the differences between God’s power and peace versus man’s attempt at terror and control and how the kingdom of God provides safety for all people.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM26ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM26FRPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM26PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM26ES YOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/bD83y2g7t4gALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 Part II–Dr. Eva Witesman00:07 How do we become peacemakers?01:55 Mosiah 10:17 - Teaching love or hate04:01 Alma 14:8 - Personal power and influence07:46 Gathering Israel and the power to bless08:37 The experience of women12:44 How can we witness horror?14:23 The purpose of the eternities19:23 Alma 16:11-12 - John shares his experience at Columbine High School26:20 Alma 15:18 - Alma and Amulek’s struggle28:11 Alma 14:28- Alma 15 Alma and Amulek survive prison and reunite with Zeezrom30:33 Alma 15:6 - Zeezrom believes and is healed33:39 Alma 15:10 and Alma 36  - Conversion and healing through the Atonement of Jesus Christ36:03 Alma 15:15-26-  Parallel to D&C 121-238:39 Alma 16:17 - Why are we bringing people to Jesus?41:12 Dr. Witesman shares her testimony of the Atonement of Jesus47:54  End of Part II– Dr. Eva WitesmanThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two with Dr. Ava Weitzman, Alma chapter 13 through 16. I like what you said there. I don't need you to get all strong and go fight. I want to live in a culture of peace. How can we create that culture where women feel safe, valued in church? I mean, that's a bigger question than just this, right? Do you know what it reminds me of, Hank? It reminds me of when Sister Eubank that, how can you spend so much money on temples? And she's like, when there's poverty, and she's like, hey, when you go to temples, you covenant. And she makes this list.

And I feel kind of, Ava, like you're saying, the same type of thing. If we could get everybody in the temple to make covenants of obedience and the gospel, I mean, that's how we change the world. That's a tall order, though. Yeah. And the principles of it, too, even if people aren't prepared to convert and accept the entire restored gospel of Jesus Christ, there are principles in our gospel that we can teach and build into every interaction with people all around the world and we can connect with others who share those same ideas through a pluralistic society, which again is the opposite of what the nihors did. We don't all have to be the same right now.

And it's not a failure if everyone isn't instantly converted. Eventually we'll get there. Eventually every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. And we can work toward that. But what we're doing is not trying to change people. We're not trying to force this homogeneity on people. What we're trying to do is share the power that we have and the knowledge that we have of how to build peace. And there are many ways that we can do that. One of those ways is through

conversion and covenants. But there are other ways too, where we can join, for example, with other people of faith and identify the components of peacemaking that exist across faiths and we join and celebrate that and become together a majority of peacemakers even if we're not a majority of members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in any given setting, right? We can amplify those messages of peace. And when I think about how these people got to the point where they were able to dehumanize these people so much that they were just a tool of psychological warfare. It brings me back again to Mosiah 10.

I actually want to read that verse 17. So there's some similar stuff going on, and this is a completely different group of people, but there's this moment where there's a recounting of how the Lamanites have been taught in their families. This is Mosiah chapter 10 verse 17, which reads, and thus they have taught their children's talking about the Lamanites here, and thus they have taught their children that they should hate them, meaning hate the Nephites, and they should murder them and that they should rob and plunder them and do all that they could to destroy them. Therefore, they have an eternal hatred toward the children of Nephi. It starts with these words, words of hatred. It's not necessarily that this

moment in Mosiah chapter 10 isn't necessarily violence, although it leads to that. But it begins with teaching that it's okay to hate people and it's okay to talk about them in a way that dehumanizes them. This I think is where President Nelson's discussion of peacemaking, he actually is talking about global peace in the same way that we're talking about like an absence of war, but he's bringing it all the way back to individual conversations that we have and the language that we use in our relationships with each other and the language that we use in our relationships with each other and the ways that we talk about other people and other groups of people. The Prophet is calling us to repentance on the way that

we treat each other in our words online and in person and how often do you hear the word hate? Like we throw it around like it's nothing. And sometimes we'll even talk about hating a group of people. Maybe I hate my political opposition. Maybe I hate this group of people that disagrees with me on some moral issue that matters to me. And I may even have what I believe to be a morally righteous standpoint, but the moment that I start using the language of hate, the moment that I start dehumanizing other people, I'm on a trajectory to Alma chapter 14 verse 8. When we think about what we can do, I feel powerless in many of the global conflicts that are happening.

I am not in those regions. I have no influence on the leaders of those nations or those groups of people. Other than calling them to repentance, I don't know what I would do even if I did have that influence. But what I do have influence over is helping to prevent myself and my family and the people around me from using the kind of thinking and language that leads eventually to that kind of dehumanization and that kind of warfare. Well put. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Ava, what you just said reminds me of the most recent general conference, Elder Rasband, Words Matter. reference, Elder Rasband, words matter. Our words, he says, can be supportive or angry, joyful or mean, compassionate or tossed aside. In the heat of the moment, words can sting

and sink painfully deep into the soul and stay there. Our words on the internet, texting, social media or tweets take on a life of their own. So be careful what you say and how you say it. In our families, especially with husbands, wives, and children, our words can bring us together or drive a wedge between us. And then he gave three simple phrases. I bet both of you remember this. Thank you, I am sorry, and I love you. Those humble phrases don't have to be saved for a special event or a catastrophe. Use them often and sincerely. Talk is growing cheap. Do not follow that pattern. I love that so much. And it just really builds on that idea of individual peacemaking. And it sounds too small and too simple to be something that could change the world and create global peace,

but it truly is by small and simple things that great things are brought to pass. These are prophets and apostles who are teaching us how to bring about peace and it begins with us and the very words that we choose in the relationships that we have with one another. And what I hear as a subtext in those prophetic words, both from Elder Razband and from President Nelson is we are on a trajectory that is concerning me. We are headed toward a place of war. And it begins with these words and the way that we're talking to and about one another. I want us not to diminish those messages thinking that it's too small and too simple because we have prophets of God telling us this is what we need to be doing to create global

peace and this is what we have the power to do as a people to create global peace. For most of us, like you said, I can't do much about what's happening in other hemispheres, but I can start at home. Aaronic priesthood, quorum, theme, says I will use his priesthood to serve others beginning in my own home. That's where it can start. I get power over.

I've got a dot, dot, dot after power with. Power with each other to serve, to bless. In the context that it's usually taught in sociology is power with one another in community. I think it's a really useful concept because in the context of the priesthood, we would add power with God. This is Him inviting us into His power. So I actually think it's both of those and maybe we need some new words to really describe that dynamic as well. Because sociologically, when we talk about power with, we're talking about power in community, power to come together in community and create. And it's a very gathering of Israel, you know, creating Zion kind of concept.

Yeah, I was thinking the word council, but it could also be with God. I mean, that's a really, really great way to show the contrast of a worldly power over and a power to lift and bless and heal, which is like you said. Thank you. These verses have changed for me. I just wrote in my margin, do not skip this experience, the experience of women. That's something I hope all of our listeners take away from this piece because I've had a tendency in the past to jump from that verse to Amulek and Alma's conversation. It's not a comfortable place to be. I appreciate you taking the time to be

together in that moment and to think about like, what can we do to help make this better? Right? What can we do? And what can we learn and gain from the experience of these martyrs in verse eight? We do move on. We move into Alma and Amulek brought to this point of martyrdom. This is again a psychological warfare tactic to make

them watch this atrocity happen. They're seeing this happen. Amulek in verse 10, when he sees the pains of the women and children, he's also pained. He has that empathy. And he says to Alma, how can we witness this awful scene? Let us stretch forth our hands and exercise the power of God which is in us and save them from the flames. But Alma said unto him, the spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand. This is an evidence that this isn't just a power that they're just given to use at their own whim. That's not how the priesthood works. I can't demand that the mountains move because they're inconvenient for me, even though the scriptures tell me that even if I have faith the size of a mustard

seed, I should be able to move the mountains. It doesn't work like that. It has to be according to God's purposes because it's His power. We see that here. And then he gives this statement, for behold, the Lord receiveth them up unto himself in glory. We're going to pause there for a minute because that's a pretty awful way to get there, but a great place to be in the end and a beautiful gift for those believers to know that they will be exalted in their belief. It's some comfort at least, right? In that moment.

I think so, Eva. This phrase, the Lord receiveth them up unto himself in glory, that didn't mean as much to me as it had previously. I'd always skipped to the judgments of the Lord. The Lord allows agency for his judgments to be just. But I had an experience recently. My father passed away a couple of years ago. I was kind of like Amulek in that moment saying, this shouldn't have happened. And I felt the spirit say, if you could see the experiences he's having now,

you would not want to take that from him. That phrase has stood out to me now, not in this horrific of a way, but in a small way when we have someone who we feel like passes. It's unjust. What would Elder Renlund call that? Infuriating unfairness. President Nelson said this, he said, our limited perspective would be enlarged if we could witness the reunions on the other side of the veil. President John Taylor said, while we are mourning the loss of our friends, others are rejoicing to meet them. I think you're right. It definitely doesn't fix or say it's okay what's happened in these verses. There is some measure of comfort that on the other side of this tragedy, you have to think

that the Lord is right there after this horrific thing happens, that this unbelievably beautiful scene opens up before these women and children. I have to believe that. And what a beautiful vision for you to have had of your father and the joy that we can only imagine that he's experiencing. But how sweet that must have been for you. And it does, it brings a different perspective to this loss too. Let me ask you both something that comes up in these verses.

There's a large portion of the population who can't believe in God, who are atheist for these very reasons, if God is real and he is love and he is good, why do these horrible, horrible things happen to people? And I think I've been on the side of Amulek saying, how can we possibly witness this? And I think I've come to the side of Alma where trying to gain a godly perspective. Can these verses help us at least understand why the Lord allows such pain to happen to innocent people? I have written right above that verse, Doctrine and Covenants, section 42 verse 46, and I don't know exactly what this means But it says it shall come to pass that those that die in me

Shall not taste of death for it shall be sweet unto them I'm not sure what that meant for them. I'm not sure how it appeared to Alma and amulet I'm Hoping that means it wasn't as horrific as it sounds, but maybe it was. And maybe this sweetness comes after going back to Liberty Jail, what Joseph told thy suffering and thine afflictions will be, but a small moment between these two eternities. What a great cross-, John. I've thought about this a fair amount. And for me, I think about the unique doctrines that we have in the restored church of Jesus Christ, where we understand that the purpose of mortality

is to help us become creators in the eternities. That means not only will we retain our agency, but with increased power to do things like create and govern worlds without number, we're going to have to really understand the consequences of the decisions and choices that we're making. If you take that very eternal perspective and that very eternal purpose and understand that a creator, an eternal creator, needs to understand the consequences of certain choices including how very bad things can get. If I think of some of those things as learning, not necessarily that the bad things that happen to me are okay because at least I learned

something, like that's not what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to sort of zoom out into a larger societal global sense. If I look at how people make choices and what the consequences of those choices are. When you step aside from these eternal laws and these commandments and the principles on which this power is premised, when you turn away from that, civilizations crumble, war and atrocities occur, sadness happens. And that's something that as eternal creators in an eternal perspective, we need to know, and we need to understand. And I think that's part of why a fall, going now back to the other side of this mortal life, from the end where we're hoping to become creators to the beginning where we're only foreordained to be able to experience

some of this. That's part of why a fall was necessary. That's why it was necessary for opposition and evil to be introduced into the world so that we have, and this is the language from the Garden of Eden, knowledge of the difference between good and evil. That is actually part of the purpose of the fall, and this fallen mortality is where those ugly things happen, and we had to have that knowledge, otherwise we couldn't get from eternal state one to eternal state two. We couldn't get from where we were in that innocent state where all we knew was goodness to a place where we could manage the incredible creative powers that we're promised. We had to go through the ugliness. We had to go through the consequences of agency. For me, theologically, I think

that is one of the most beautiful doctrines that we have that really answers that question in a way that no other theology can, because otherwise it's just senseless. But if we connect it with this plan of salvation and also who we're meant to become, all of a sudden it's like, oh, it really is a proving ground and a learning opportunity, not just for my day-to-day choices and my own personal repentance, but also for this very global sense of why do we need to take these incredible powers that we may eventually have and constrain them. These are the reasons we constrain those powers. And then you start to see that pattern in other things.

This is why we constrain the creative power in mortality, right? This is why we don't just freely get to use all the powers that we've been given even in mortality. We need to learn that commandments are actually a blessing that allows us to perpetuate eternally good things without everything crumbling into ugly, horrific destruction. You mentioned Sagganyphai too. That's becoming more and more valuable to me over time that Lehi explains if the Lord is going to allow agency to do all the good you possibly can, he is going to allow or needs to allow the agency to do

all the evil you possibly could do. So the same agency that someone uses to commit genocide is the same agency that Mother Teresa used to go into the slums of Calcutta. It's the same agency, and you're right. That's a verse in the Pearl of Great Price, one line that is so good to me, Moses 6.55, last phrase, They taste the bitter that they may know to prize the good. It's kind of another way of must-needs-be opposition in all things. I hope we don't think that somehow God is unaffected by all of this either. Hank, you know that I had a chance to go speak to the kids at Columbine High School. With my own wrestling literally tossing and turning, I came to the conclusion I can't explain why this happened, but maybe we can talk about what do we know from a source where

the answers don't change. We know God loves his children, but we do not know the meaning of all things, right? First Nephi 11, 17. We know that God allows evil to exist in the world. I use that vision of Enoch, where Enoch sees the Lord weeping, and it's so poetic. How is it that the heavens weep and shed forth their tears as rain upon the mountains? I mean, it's beautiful poetry and Enoch saw him weep. I just hope when we see this

We don't think that God is unaffected by what he sees happening here He doesn't move on too fast either I guess Ava Theologically, that's amazing. If Enoch saw him weep, what do you think could have been happening when he saw this as well? Thank you for that. I think that's really powerful. We're still here in verse 11. The Lord receiveth them up in glory unto himself, and that's potentially beautiful. A God who is possibly there with open arms with glory waiting but also tears for what they've just experienced. Alma goes on and he says, he doth suffer that they may do this thing or specifically that the people

may do this thing unto them according to the hardness of their hearts that the judgments which he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just, and the blood of the innocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day." This reference to this fierce judgment of God is really interesting. And this is one of those places where there's another fascinating parallel with section 121 of the Doctrine and Covenants. If we go there, it says section 121. I'm going to do verse 15, although there are actually several verses around here that describe this fierce judgment that the Lord in his judgment has the option of engaging his wrath. Verse 15 of section 121 is particularly interesting. It says, and not many years hence, that they and their posterity shall be swept from under

heaven saith God, that not one of them is left to stand by the wall. Now he's speaking to Joseph Smith and he's speaking about the people who are persecuting the early saints and again, who are engaging in some of this abuse of women and murdering of children. Like this is happening with the early saints as well. This is what the Lord shares as one of these judgments that's available to him. And part of why that's so interesting is that in Alma chapter 16, we see what we describe as the desolation of the Nihors, where this judgment is actually executed on those people and they are destroyed, utterly destroyed. And here, what Alma is saying that the Lord is

saying to him is similar to what we see mentioned to Joseph Smith. I just think that's another interesting parallel between these peoples. Wow. Reading down there, their houses, their barns shall perish. I remember the prophecy, Joseph Smith heard Alexander Donovan, somebody came into the office and was like, hey, I'm gonna buy some.

He was talking about a land deal in Jackson County and Joseph Smith overheard it and said, I wouldn't do that. There will come a day when only the chimneys are left standing. A journal entry of a civil war officer that came through Missouri and said all that was left standing were chimneys. Yeah. Reminds me of that. It is chilling. If you read the book Truman by David McCullough, his whole first chapter is on independence Missouri. He talks about the Civil War and how every single person in Jackson County was driven

from their homes. And it's not that we delight in this. I've had people ask me about that verse. So he lets them do it so that he can really get mad at him later. I've wondered the same thing. It's clear that the Spirit is saying, do not use my power to stop this. That's clear because otherwise he'd have done it and had the ability to do that. I don't know if this is Alma's sense making and saying the only justification I can see is this, although the phrasing of the verse makes it sound

a whole lot like this is the answer that he's being given in that moment. Yeah, very interesting. When we look what happens next here in verse 12, Amulek said unto Alma, behold, perhaps they will burn us also. I mean, you can only imagine. I like to think of Amulek as a junior companion to Alma, and Alma's answer, courageous, be it according to the will of the Lord. But then this revelation perhaps, but behold, our work is not finished, therefore they burn us not.

I plead with the youth, don't let this tragedy define you. Don't let it put you in a box. Your work is not finished. You have patriarchal blessing, you have a mission and a purpose and a destiny which is just yours, and your work is not finished. So you hang on to the power of the Atonement of Christ, and you have a wonderful life still ahead of you. So that verse 13 means a lot to me. means a lot to me. I love the example of a peacemaker that you were too and being there with those people at that time. That's a really good example of something else that we can do is see people who are suffering and be with them and serve

them. I love that example of yours, John. John, what you pointed out there also, it sounds like Alma is almost addressing what today I think is called survivor guilt, right? That I've done something wrong by surviving. And he's saying, no, that's, that's not the case. Our work is not finished. We're going to keep going. I've often wondered if Alma and Emelik had nightmares, why did I have to see this? Why did this have to be part of my memory for the rest of my life? Yeah, you may be right about that.

I think the end of chapter 15 answers that question, the penultimate verse, the verse 18. Alma, having seen all these things, therefore he took Amulek and came over to the land of Zarahemla and took him to his own house and did administer unto him in his tribulations and strengthened him in the Lord. Like, he's not okay. Thinking again about the history of Amulek, this is someone who has given up all of his wealth, all of his comfort. He's converted, and this is the experience that he has in his effort to bring people to the joy that he's been converted to. And he witnesses this.

I mean, he is, he's not okay. And I think that's actually really humanizing. I mean, it's not supposed to just be okay. And Alma needed to minister to him and care for him and love him through that moment and mourn with him. I'm sure Alma was mourning himself, too. He was a witness to it as well. It's okay to be sad about it. We need to minister to each other, bear one another's burdens as we've covenanted to do, and then move forward in the work.

It's interesting that when Amulek first opened his mouth in Ammonihah, he told him, hey, this Alma, he's blessed me. He's blessed my family. He's blessed. He mentions his father. And then we see Alma 1516, he being rejected by those who are once his friends and also by his father and his kindred. Not only did he see all of that, he's been rejected by his family. So no wonder Alma had to administer unto him in his tribulations. Ava, what else do you want to show us in these chapters? At the end of 14, adding insult to injury, the judge again after the order of Nihur comes down is like, looks like you couldn't save him, heaps upon this guilt and is trying to make an example of Alma and Amulek,

strikes them on the face, puts them in prison. Again, other war tactics chooses not to feed them for some period of time. And so they're there in prison. And eventually they come out of prison through the power of the Lord, right? They are able to come out of prison, they're loose from their bands. This is verse 28. The prison had fallen to the earth and every soul within the walls thereof except for Elma and Amulek. So this massive power is now demonstrated again, even though it had been withheld previously. Here they were granted that ability to be freed from prison. And this is terrifying to the order of Nihur, who essentially flees before Alma and Amulek. And so now they're free to go reunite with the penitent people who had been exiled from the community because

of their belief, stoned and chased out of the community. But now Alma and Amulek are able to reunite with these people who are now converts. In chapter 15, that's where we find Alma and Amulek. They leave the city. They find all the people that had departed out of the land of Ammonihah and have to recount what they witnessed as they're reunited with these people, they come back to Zeezram. So Zeezram, again, remember at the beginning of all of this, he was the one who was really advocating for the order of Nihur. At some point he realizes that he's incorrect. He starts to feel guilty. Apparently he's now exiled with the believers. Here we find that

Ziezram is with all of the other believers outside of Ammonihah in Sidon. He is sick, physically ill, burning fever, mental stuff going on, sheer guilt. And of course, this is amplified by the tale that Alma and Amulek have to relate to them now. Here he is, we hear this word again, this great sin and as many other sins did harrow up his mind until it did become exceedingly sore, having no deliverance, therefore he began to be scorched with a burning heat." Again, this is like the story that Alma tells his son when he's telling the story of his own conversion and that he was harrowed up, he himself, Alma, was harrowed up with the guilt of his sins. We don't read about this until Alma 36, when he's recounting this to his son. It happened obviously prior to

this, but the parallels between these two things are really fascinating. Verse six, it came to pass that Alma said unto him, taking him by the hand, believest thou in the power of Christ unto salvation. And Zeezram says, Yea, I believe all the words that thou hast taught. And Elma replies, if thou believest in the redemption of Christ, thou canst be healed. And he said, Yeh, I believe according to thy words. And then Elma cried unto the Lord, saying, O Lord our God, have mercy on this man and heal him according to his faith which is in Christ. And when Elma had said these words, Zeezram leapt upon his feet and began to walk. And when Alma had said these words, the Israel leapt upon

his feet and began to walk. And this was done to the great astonishment of all the people. And the knowledge of this went forth throughout all the land of Scytham. First of all, we have a faith healing here. But just like the example of Jesus Christ who's like, which is the greater miracle? Is it that I can heal your body? Or is it that I can redeem your soul? And that's happening here because the sickness, this physical sickness that he has is actually a physical manifestation of the pain of soul that he is suffering. And so this physical healing is symbolic of his successful repentance and his redemption from these sins that he's now repenting

of. I think that's a beautiful parallel across those different stories. Alma the younger, now Ziezram, and then Jesus Christ doing the same for many different people, healing them both of their sins and also their physical maladies. For me, the interesting thing about this isn't that there are parallels across the scriptures. That's really intellectually interesting, but for me the power of this is that I can see a pattern that happened not only for Ziezram and Alma and for many people who were healed by Jesus Christ, but that this is the experience that I had. I have had this experience. I have been in a situation where I came to the awareness of my own sins. Just like Ziezram describes and like Alma describes, I'm harrowed up. I mean, that just

describes so beautifully how I felt. Like Ziezram, I was experiencing fevers. I was horrified at what I had done. The miracle of it is that the moment that my mind turned to Jesus Christ, and in my case, what I actually did was I remembered the story of Alma the Younger, my mind turned to Jesus Christ, and in my case what I actually did was I remembered the story of Alma the Younger and I turned to Alma 36 in my scriptures. That was what I did in that moment. My mind goes to Jesus Christ and I'm like, Jesus Christ can heal this. And I remember that it happened before in the scriptures and it happened to Alma. And so I opened chapter 36 and I started to read and it was the same thing that's described in all of these other settings with Ziezram, with Alma, with the various people that Jesus healed during his ministries on both continents. It was immediate and I was healed. I understood the power of the atonement toward redemption and I was a changed

human being. It was my true conversion moment. I was born to parents who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My grandparents on both sides were members. I'd learned the stuff all of my life but until that moment, until I had experienced for myself, the redeeming power of the atonement, I wasn't changed. And that changed me. And it put my feet on on this path in a way that I have to turn to the Lord because I've experienced the miracle of the atonement. I know too much. Where would I go that resonates so much with me?

Thou hast the words of eternal life. Where would I go? This is where the power of redemption is? For me, that's this incredible miracle that we get to witness. And we get to witness not only the miracle for Ziazrim, but we also get to witness the pattern of redemption, that it just requires turning to Jesus Christ and having faith in Him. And that repentance process begins in a way that our hearts can be changed. And that's the miracle here.

Pete That's fantastic. When you pointed that out to us, I remember the prayer in Alma 36, Oh Jesus Christ, thou son of God, have mercy on me who are in the gall of bitterness. And you look at that prayer that he says in chapter 15 verse 10, Alma cried unto the Lord saying, Oh Lord our God, have mercy on this man. According to his faith, which is in Christ. Pete He sees himself. Jared The whole doctrine of an ehor throws out the doctrine of Christ. There's not faith in Jesus Christ. There's not repentance. You look at the end of verse 15 of Alma 15, they did not believe in the repentance of their sins. One of the things I love about Zeezrom is, I like to call them gotcha questions, scribes, Pharisees, lawyers ask, right, in the scriptures. And then there's Google questions, where's the nearest five guys, most important

of all. And then there's just information, and then there's golden questions. And Ziezram in this story went from a gotcha to a suddenly he started to listen. For him to be converted is awesome. One more thing I wanted to throw in before we're done is, because I love the parallels you found. Look at verse 26, Alma cried saying, how long? Who said how long? Liberty Jail.

Yeah, Liberty Jail. Yeah. I love that the question isn't, are you real? Is there actually no God? It's not that, it's just how long? I know you're there. There's hope in that question. I know it's going to end, but how long is this going to be? Yeah, the connections you've made, Ava, are. I'm going back and I'm seeing all these footnotes to 121 and 122 and I'm going how did I miss

that? That's really cool. So good. So, so good. Ava, is there anything else that we need to cover? So chapter 15, we really have this beautiful completion of this repentance story. So we see the broad level repentance of a society, this group of people, right, that escapes and now they're going to create this Zion society. They're going to try to anyway, together this converted people. But we also see that at the individual level. So we've got macro and micro, and we see kind of what that looks like to use the atonement and how individual repentance really does amplify to this opportunity for

social peace and eventually a global peace, how those small things really do build to the larger ones. And then in the story, we have some more war, but in chapter 16, we have the fulfillment of that warning about the wrath of God. We have the desolation of the nihors where their entire society is just completely wiped out, which is a sad thing. In one day it says, every living soul. Yeah, and there's a lot of ugliness described there too, right, and sadness in the death there. But then in verse 17, so we're in Alma chapter 16 verse 17, at the very end of that it talks about entering into the rest of the Lord. That's really where I'd like us to focus the end of this is what's

the reason for all of this? Why are we trying to bring people to this power, to this knowledge? Why are we trying to bring people to Jesus Christ? One of the reasons for all of that is that they might enter into the rest of the Lord. It really makes me think about a talk that President Nelson gave called overcome the world and find rest. And I just wanna read a couple of quotes from that because it's really relating the kinds of experiences that we've just witnessed in the Book of Mormon to the kinds of things that we also talked about

that we see in our day here. And it brings this idea of entering into the rest of the Lord back home, that this is really the promise that we have. He says, it seems that we are accosted daily by an onslaught of sobering news. You may have had days when you wish you could don your pajamas, curl up in a ball, and ask someone to awaken you when the turmoil is over. Absolutely, I have been there. But my dear brothers and sisters, so many wonderful things are ahead. In coming days we will see the greatest manifestations of the Savior's power that the world has

ever seen. Between now and the time He returns with power and great glory, He will bestow countless privileges, blessings, and miracles upon the faithful. Nonetheless, we're presently living in what surely is a most complicated time in the history of the world. The complexities and challenges leave many people feeling overwhelmed and exhausted." He's acknowledging this is hard and you want to hide from it and the fact that there's like these miracles coming doesn't necessarily make you want to get out of your pajamas, like get out of that little ball that you've curled into. Like he's really acknowledging that. But then he goes

on to talk about how the reward for keeping covenants with God is heavenly power, power that strengthens us to withstand our trials, temptations and heartaches better. This power eases our way. Those who live the higher laws of Jesus Christ have access to his higher power. Thus covenant keepers are entitled to a special kind of rest that comes to them through their covenantal relationship with God. And I have to believe that when Alma was nurturing Amulek after these tribulations that they witnessed together, that this is part of what he was trying to teach his new younger companion, helping him to access that power of rest and that power of peace and that power of comfort. There are other miracles that I've witnessed. I

talked about the redemption that I experienced and that role of the Savior Jesus Christ was important to me. There are other times in my life, I'm thinking specifically of the loss of some of our children, Owen and I have had miscarriages and one really late term stillbirth. Turning to my savior in that moment and experiencing his role as a comforter and his role as someone who could even in those pains and sorrows, provide me with rest in my soul, rest that I can't even really describe. Is I think what's happening here that that's what President Nelson is talking about is this blessing of our covenants to give us that kind of rest. He says, Dear brothers and sisters, my message to you today is that because Jesus Christ

overcame this fallen world and because he atoned for each of us, you too can overcome this sin saturated, self-centered and often exhausting world. Going back to that idea of power too, part of that power too is the power to experience this beauty in the rest of the Lord to call upon the Savior through our covenants and invite him to play that role in our lives, that role of comforter. And that I think is the rest that President Nelson talks about here and that is mentioned here in Alma 16. Wow, Ava, this has been fantastic. One way that I know I have felt or am feeling the Holy Ghost is that I just don't want it to end.

I want you to walk us through more chapters of the Book of Mormon so we can keep seeing all these incredible patterns and insights, and then not only just patterns and insights that give us the, wow, this is such a great book, to wow, what a great message. And thank you for quoting president Nelson. What I love about that is he is totally aware of what's going on in this world, but he's also totally full of faith and

Expectation of wonderful things ahead and it tells all of us. Okay, I can be aware but I can be full of faith too. Yeah. The best is yet to come. Yeah. I've often thought when you're on the Lord's side that you can know your best days are always ahead of you. He is that good. It has been a joy to work through these challenging chapters with the two of you. Thank you for sharing your experiences and your insights. One of the really exciting things about the scriptures is not only the opportunity to liken them to ourselves,

but also to see the Lord's fingerprints and to realize that those patterns are the same in our lives as they are in the lives that are recorded in the scriptures. Thank you for sharing your experiences as well. Yeah, and we would love all of our listeners, since Ava's never been on our podcast before, come onto YouTube and tell us where you're listening from. And we'll pass that on to Ava. It would be fun to know in what different countries, states, cities that we've all studied together today. And with that, we want to thank Dr. Ava Weitzman for being with us.

What an absolute fantastic time we've had together. We want to thank our producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we want to remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We've got some missionary chapters coming up on Follow Him. Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode's transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhim.co. On our website,

you'll also find our two free books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won't find anywhere else. If you'd like to know how you can help us, if you could subscribe to, rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nilsen, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra,

and Annabel Sorensen. Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.