Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Alma 32-35 Part 1 • Dr. S. Michael Wilcox • July 22-28 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

Can we approach gaining and keeping a testimony using the Scientific Method? Dr. S. Michael Wilcox weaves science, faith, and testimony together while examining Alma’s treatise on faith.TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM30ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM30FRPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM30PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM30ES YOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/S1V18og_2PEALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 Part I  - Dr. Michael Wilcox00:53 What to expect03:08 Dr. Michael Wilcox’s bio05:45 Pyramid of faith07:12 Why societies fall10:33 Evidence, substance, and assurance12:43 Experience, authority, and reason15:33 Building faith17:50 Alma 32:27 - Scientific method19:41 Alma 31:1-21 - Humility23:50 Alma 32:21 - Remember God’s mercy27:16 Testimony is a living thing30:34 Alma 32:28 - Letting testimony grow32:43 Alma 32:33-4 - Testing our hypothesis39:33 Making conclusions40:49 Swellings, burning, and enlightenments44:30 Burning in the bosom46:08 Alma issues warnings48:17 Alma 32:29 - Our hypothesis: Jesus Christ lives51:55 Alma 32: 25-7 -The Book of Mormon is brilliantly constructed 55:03 How testimony becomes a law instead of hypothesis59:0 Alma 32:40 - What the tree is1:04:36 “Weed Your Brain, Grow Your Testimony”1:07:50 When silence is required1:11:05 What seed did Alma ask them to plant?1:24:54 -  End of Part 1 - Dr. Michael WilcoxThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my planted and rooted co-host and our wonderful guest, Dr. S. Michael Wilcox. John, let's start with you. This is Alma 32-35. Alma's with the Zoramites. I know this is one of your favorite blocks of scripture. Tell me what you're looking forward to. I did a lot of weeding as a teenager. My dad thought that should be part of my training and I feel like I probably learned more about these agricultural parables working in a garden than just reading about them and thinking about them. So I'm excited to see how the ground, the seed, the season,

the supper all work together here. We have our guest here, John. He's been with us before, Dr. S. Michael Wilcox. Mike, what are we going to do today? How do you want to lay this out? I love these chapters. Alma 32 is one of those chapters where are you laying in the scale against all the anti Book of Mormon things you want to lay in and it's going to weigh down.

You just don't write something like this without being a prophet. It has a prophetic stamp on it or just a profoundly prophetic stamp. And it addresses something that's very very very relevant to us all. How do you gain and maintain faith? John likes the agricultural sense of it and you can key off some other words in Alma 32 and use a whole different image. You can key off the word experiment and now I'm in the world of modern scientific research and it's amazing for people to say look I can give you a scientific formula how to learn spiritual truth. If you're in that chemistry, physics, biology, reason, world, almas for you. You can key off the word exercise and now you're in the Olympics and

sports or you can key off the word tree and agriculture. So you've got a lot of metaphors to do here. And then Amulek is going to help us understand two words I love in terms of the Savior, understand two words I love in terms of the Savior, his redemption, his atonement, it's infinite. What does that really mean? Infinite atonement and what I call the immediacy of Jesus's mercy. That's a whole theme. It is the major theme of the Book of Mormon. Mamulek deals with it there a little bit. We'll just have fun. Like you said, Mike, this is one of those chapters where you think, if Joseph Smith just gives us this chapter, and I've said that before, Second Nephi 9, Moses chapter 1, where you think, if it was just this chapter, but yet there's dozens and dozens of them.

There are, yeah, it's rich. John, Mike has been with us before, but just in case there's someone out there who's thinking, wait, who's this? Will you introduce him? Absolutely. We're so happy to have Dr. S. Michael Wilcox with us. He got his PhD from the University of Colorado, taught for many years at the Institute of Religion up adjacent to the University of Utah. He's spoken at BYU Education Week.

Have you even counted how many tours to the Holy Land? Oh, no, I'm moving probably towards 100. A lot. A lot. And to China and to church history sites and to Europe, we were talking about some of them beforehand. He's quite the world traveler. I mean, really a world traveler. He has served a variety of callings, including as a bishop and a counselor in a stake presidency. He's written many articles and books, including House of Glory, 10 Great Souls I want to meet in heaven, twice blessed, finding hope. I have

one that I love right here about holding on in the latter days. Thank you for joining us again. I remember last time taking a ton of notes and really excited to have you back. John, I have to tell you my favorite Mike Wilcox story from my experience. I've known Mike for a long time now. It had to be five in the morning. We were taking a taxi in California. It was me and Mike and Whitney Perman and a taxi driver. I thought, oh, it's about 45 minutes

to an hour ride to the airport. And I thought, let's five in the morning. I just closed my eyes. So I sat in the back behind Mike and Mike talked to this taxi driver about yo-yos. The taxi driver loved yo-yos and Mike talked to him the entire way. This taxi driver was feeling so energized

and I could tell he felt so important. I've made it a point, John, honestly from that time forward to talk to my driver, you know, if they want to talk, sometimes they're like, why are you talking to me? Help people feel how important they truly are. I don't know anything about yo-yos. So I'm not sure what I said. Yeah. It was a blessing to watch. It really impacted me the

fact that I still remember it. I love Uber drivers because they want a good rating and you can talk to them about anything. That's a really great place to talk to folks, even share your testimony because they want a good rating. Yeah, and they're stuck in the car with you, right? We've got 30 minutes. Want to hear about the gospel Mike let's read from the come follow me manual. It says for the zoramites

Prayer consisted of standing where all could see and repeating empty self-satisfied word the zoramites Had no faith in jesus christ even denied his existence and persecuted the poor By contrast alma and amulet taught that prayer has more to do with what happens in our hearts than on a public platform, and if we do not show compassion toward people in need, our prayer is vain and availeth nothing. Most important, we pray because we have faith in Jesus Christ, who offers redemption through His infinite and eternal sacrifice. Such faith, Alma explains, starts with humility and a desire to believe. Over time, with constant nourishment, the Word of God takes root in our hearts until

it becomes a tree springing up unto everlasting life." Well written first paragraph there of the Come Follow Me Manual. Mike, where do you want to go from here? Let's build a pyramid first. Both Alma and Amulek do talk about prayer in the context of how you gain faith and just in terms of an introductory thought, the Book of Mormon is always relevant. The Book of Mormon is the story, if you think about it, of two peoples who can't live next to each other. That's the problem we have in a lot of parts of the world. The Book of Mormon begins and ends with the destruction of a people. What do societies do that cause their downfall,

their weakening? It's relevant. You know, one of those things is the central government falls, people lose confidence in it, and they break up into tribes. You're gonna go next week into another great theme of the Book of Mormon, parenting. You want to know how to be a good parent? The best manual I know of you can read is the Book of Mormon. There are so many parent-child relationships, so many. Like I say, next week it starts starts up we'll maybe hit one great parenting thing in chapter 35 of Alma. There are these themes principles of just war you're gonna come to that here pretty quick all the war chapters you want to know how to assess any war in history or going on you the book of Mormon will

tell you and it's going to tell us how to build and maintain faith. That's where we're going to kind of go today. This is probably the finest chapter of how to do that. And then we'll talk as we get into Amulek in particular the single greatest theme of the Book of Mormon, what I call the immediacy of Jesus ends one's life. So if you were if we would just visualize a pyramid, a pyramid is the most stable structure you can build on earth. That's why they're still in Egypt, they're in Central America. In the Book of Mormon you find various, I call them faith shakers, interrupters. Kora Hor is an

interrupter. He wants to interrupt people's rejoicing. Jerem and Ahor, they're faith shakers. So you want a testimony that you can't shake. I visualize it as a pyramid. We're going to take that pyramid and we're going to divide it into three sections, the top, the middle, and the bottom. On the top we're going to write faith, what I believe, this is what I affirm or attest to, this is the part that I say I believe Jesus is the Christ. I know that God lives. I have faith that Joseph Smith was a prophet. Whatever it is you're affirming, you're gonna put it in that top third of the pyramid. This is what I am attesting. But faith has to

have a foundation underneath it. Paul is going to use a couple of words in Hebrews 11. Alma's gonna use one of those words. Maybe you talked about it last week in Alma 30. Evidence. If you think that faith, testimony, is based on emotion, emotion isn't a very stable foundation. And I think a lot of people feel that faith is based on kind of emotional things. Joseph Smith said that the ministers were trying to stir up religious feeling.

That's not a real solid foundation. Faith is based on evidence. Paul also uses the word substance. And in the footnote, the Greek could also give it assurance. So in that second section of the pyramid, I'm gonna write the words evidence, substance, assurance. Now in the lower one what does evidence, substance and

assurance rest on? So the base the foundation of my pyramid of faith that Alma is going to help us build. Nobody helps us build it as good as Alma. I'm going to write three things. Faith, evidence, assurance, substance is based on reason and authority and experience. So I would say my experience tells me, provides me the evidence that what I believe or affirm is true. I haven't had the experience but I trust the authority. We all have to trust the authority of other people that things exist and that things work well and I haven't had it but I trust others experiences. My reason tells me a classic example of that in Alma you would have talked about last week when

he's talking to Korahor and Korahor asked for a sign and Alma effectively lays his pyramid out and says look I know some things I know Christ will come I know there is a God and I know why I know that's the important thing if the top part of our pyramid we're saying this is what I know or believe, the second and the third layer says and I know why I know. It's often important for people to just sit down and say okay this is what I have a testimony of, why? What's the evidence in my life? What substance? What assurances hold that up so that when things shake

it's not gonna fall. Now you can roll a few stones off pyramid, there are some things on our testimonies that don't belong there anyway. So you can roll a few things off, but the building is going to stand because I not only know I know why I know. He gives four reasons and if you think about it you're gonna get experience authority and reason in all of them. He says you have the testimony of all these thy brethren. This is the fact that if I sat in a classroom and I said I want you all to think of an experience in your life that told you God was there

and was aware of you. I'm gonna give you 15 minutes. In almost every LDS class, probably Catholic, other religious classes, certainly in ours, I could say I'm gonna call on one of you randomly, four or five of you, to share those experiences. And they would have them. The little things that you could say, well, maybe yours is coincidental, but there are millions of them. And Alma is saying the experiences of all my brethren is evidence that he's there. Then he says you have the prophets, that's authority. I haven't seen God, I haven't talked to him, but I trust the consistency in the message

of those who say they have. Then he says the scriptures are laid before you, that's his third one. Scriptures involve all three of them, but the very fact they exist and that they work when you live them, as Alma's gonna to tell us. And then the last one is the stars, the earth and its movement and its motion testifies as a God.

That's reason. My reason tells me there is something intelligent and benign and good behind all these things. He's got a really good pyramid. Do you understand what I mean by a pyramid? I say we want to build a pyramid. He knows not only what he knows, but he knows why he knows it. When we look at the prayer of the Zoramites, wouldn't you guys say it's an anti-Christ prayer? They say twice in there, our beliefs are not bound down to Christ and thou hast made it known unto us there will be no Christ. I like where Elma goes in trying to plant this faith in Christ in their hearts. Responding on that, notice how he answers Corohor. He goes on the offensive. And he says, what evidence, there's that word, what evidence do you have there is no

God you don't have any evidence it's just your word only and if I were Korihor at that point I'd say wait a minute Alma you stole my line that's my line that's the line that I the unbeliever the challenger gives what evidence do you have there's a God you only have your own word and Alma is saying you don't have any evidence but I do have evidence and here are my four evidences so he's built a really good one the ramby empton if it was pyramid shaped was not very stable what's holding up their beliefs isn't a very stable, it's not based on evidence. Alma 32 becomes Alma's way of teaching all of us, I'm going to show you how to build

the foundation underneath what you are believing, affirming, and we're just going to get it stronger and stronger and stronger. You go to Central America, they would build those pyramids over one another. They just got bigger and bigger and bigger. So that's what we're gonna do with faith. We're gonna just get them bigger and bigger and bigger, and all the earthquakes in the world aren't gonna knock them down. And that's what Alma wants to help us do in Alma 32. We'll make them so big that tourists aren't allowed to climb on him.

So big that even if the tourists climb on him, it won't lock him down, okay? He does use an agricultural, because he's with an agricultural people metaphor. We are in a more scientific world. I'm going to shift it just a little bit. And John, because you talked about agriculture and growing and weeding and things, you'd come in anytime you want. I'll come back to the tree idea. It's also important what tree we're trying to grow. Alma does specifically tell us what tree we're going to grow and we'll get there when we get to that verse. tree we're going to grow and we'll get there when we get to that verse. There's always so many truths in any chapter. One of the truths of Alma, if you want to say, okay missionaries we're going to get

some lessons out of here, is be sensitive to your audience and know which audience is willing to listen to you. You don't have time to talk to an audience that won't listen to you or is not prepared. What does he do? He turns his back on the one audience and goes to the one immediately that he feels is prepared. There are times you, within three or four minutes, you kind of know I'm not going to get anywhere with this person so politely, tactfully, respectfully. You turn your back, although it seems like that's what Alma does. You focus on the audience that is listening and that's prepared and we'll see a keyword in the first part of Alma 32 here in just a minute. Go to verse 27 for

a second. I'm gonna come back to some others. He says, if you will awake and arouse your faculty, sometimes people don't have faith or testimony because they're too lazy. They don't want to put the work into it or they're apathetic. So he's saying awake and arouse and try an experiment. I can see Alma saying, look I know you modern people like experiments and you like science and that's your world and you like empirical reasoning you're not quite as attuned to nature as we were in my time. Let me talk your language. Now what is the basic formula for experiments? Well you start with a what? A hypothesis. Then you gather data, you experiment, you observe, and then you come

to conclusions. And then you take those conclusions back up to your hypothesis and you say, do I have to change this hypothesis? Does it work? Or, well it looks like it's true but I'm not gonna quit I'm gonna do another round to see I'm gonna keep doing it so let's take that particular way and let's look at it there are sometimes in math and science what we call givens so there's some givens before I plant this seed, if you want to go back to the agriculture image, before I do my experiment, I gather my data, I check my hypothesis, there are

some givens and there are four givens that he gives to us here. The first given really goes through about the first 21 verses. The given is if you're going to find out spiritual truth you start from a position of humility. If you were to count and look at how many times he talks about humble. Now the poor people are humble because they've kicked him out of their synagogues and they have course apparel. There are reasons that they're humble and Alma's going to say look I don't care whether you're compelled to be humble by your life or you are humble of your own choice. You know you recognize some things and that makes you humble. But

look at how many times that we want we're going into great detail verse 6. He beheld their afflictions had truly humbled them. They were in a preparation to hear the word. C.S. Lewis said, a proud man will never find God. I'm paraphrasing somewhat. Why? Because a proud man is always looking down on everything and in order to find God you have to look up. You have to recognize that there is something greater than you are in order to find him. So their humility prepares them. We go down to verse 12. You'll see that word again, it is well that you are cast out of your synagogue. Sometimes trials in our lives are good

things. Why? Because they humble us and a humble person is usually much better placed to receive understanding and spiritual truth, that you may learn wisdom. End of verse 12, you are necessarily brought to be humble. So there's that phrase again. You go to verse 13, sometimes if a man is compelled to be humble, he seeks repentance. Whatever causes you to be humble is okay. Sometimes I think, and a very appropriate prayer for a parent or someone who's worried about a child who's disaffected with the church, maybe the prayer isn't

answered their prayers, maybe the prayer should be Lord humble them because they're not prepared, because there's not humility in them. That's an appropriate prayer. Bring some humility to them. Like the prodigal son, he got humbled first. This is Jesus' parable of the four kinds of soil. Alma turned us back on the hard soil, as you said, and now that their soil has been prepared because of their humility. Matthew 13 is part one of this story and now we're in part two. Good soil has just walked up and said what about us what do we do. Right yeah. Humility is a plow. Yeah harrowing experiences

we might say. And Alma knew something about harrowing because that's the word he uses of his own experience. You can certainly apply the parable to Sower in Alma 32. Very easy to do that. Yeah, in fact, it comes up in the footnotes in a bit. It's like Alma saying to them, you've been treated like dirt. That's wonderful. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, good. Yeah. So they've been har been heroes. We don't have to go through all of them. You'll see humble twice in verse 14. You'll see it twice in verse 15. You'll see it again in verse 16. You see it twice in verse 25. Given number one, before I ever plant the seed, if you're going to use that metaphor, before you ever plant the seed if you're gonna use that metaphor before you ever

try the experiment you start from the position of humility the foundation that you're gonna build your pyramid on you're gonna clear whatever's in the way a building needs ground cleared so we're clearing the ground and humility is the cleared ground I'm going to build my faith on. Verse 21 you have echoes of Paul as I said concerning faith. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge of things. That's my fourth given. I'm going to come back to that. If you have faith you have hope for things which are not seen, which are true. My second given is in verse 22. Before I try the experiment or go to God to try and find out truth,

I need to remember something. And so he says, I say unto you, I would that ye should remember God is merciful to all who believe on his name. He desires in the first place that you should believe even on his word. That's the second given. God wants me to know truth. He wants me to have a tree, realize that my hypothesis is truth, becomes a law in my soul, he wants me to believe. That's the second given. The third given is in verse 23, not only does he desire me to

believe in him and on goodness and truth, but he imparts his word by angels unto men, yea, not only men, but women and little children. Third given is, it doesn't matter who you are, he will answer, he will speak truth to you. Men, women, children, because he wants you to know it. Now the fourth one, we go to verse 26 26 and this is such an important given for people. Sometimes people think that faith is I have it or I don't have it, you know, and because we use the word no in our testimony so much it gives the impression that it's I got it or I don't have it.

Alma gives us a very important fourth given, verse 26 and verse 21 up there. Now as I said concerning faith that it was not a perfect knowledge, even so it is with my words, ye cannot know of their surety at first unto perfection. Any more than faith is a perfect knowledge. You're going to grow a tree, you don't pull the fruit off it the day after you plant it. If we're going to do an experiment, you don't turn a hypothesis into a law say look I've discovered one of the great laws of truth of science of nature after one

round of experimentation you don't pull off the word exercise he's gonna say exercise a particle effect you don't go to the Olympics after you've lifted a few weights one or two days and sometimes people get the idea I have it I'm gonna pray I'm gonna get an answer and and I've got the perfect knowledge and Alma's trying to warn us of that and there's a word that he's gonna use again and again humble this is a grand chapter to really focus on repetitive words. He's going to use the word and I'll show you some of those. Begin and begineth. So you can't know of assurity. You know I remember my daughter coming to me when she's 14 and I don't

think I have a testimony she said. The parent in you tries not to panic and so I started talking to her. She had this idea that you had to have a perfect knowledge right at the beginning. I said to her, how do you feel about your father in heaven and the savior and Joseph Smith and different things? And she had all kinds of positive feelings about him, but she had this impression that you know it all at once.

A testimony is a living thing. That's what I like about the tree. It's constantly growing. I go back to our Central America pyramids. You're making them bigger and bigger. That's our forgiveness. Start with humility. God wants you to know. He will tell you. It's not going to come all at once. It's going to come to you as we say light upon light, precept upon precept. Now I think Alma says at this point, or God says can you accept those four givens? And if we say yes, I can accept those four givens, Lord. Then Alma says, okay, we go back to verse 27. Let's exercise a particle of faith.

That's where we're going to start. Particle or a seed or one brick in our pyramid. One stone at the bottom. What is the particle? Even if you can no more than desire to believe. Let this desire work in you even until you believe in a manner that you can give place for a portion of my words. If we go back to the science idea metaphor, a hypothesis normally, I'm not the great scientific genius of the world, but usually you state it in positive terms. You are not trying to disprove something. A lot of people, when they want to examine spiritual truth they come to it from a position of I want to disprove it. You start positive you can't be

absolutely objective about anything. People like to say well I'm unbiased I'm absolutely objective. If you're dead you're probably objective okay but if you're a living thing there's probably a bias. We have accepted in law and science, innocent until proven guilty. So if I can't get right exactly on an objective line, we have assumed that you're going to lean to the positive. That's all just desire to believe. Don't desire to disbelieve. It's a big difference in people's lives. And don't be apathetic. Don't say, well, I don't care. You know, awake, arouse, desire to believe.

Now he starts his seed thing. Now we will compare the word unto a seed. Verse 28 is such a magnificent I'd put verse 28 alone in the scale of truthfulness. It's just so well written. I loved what you said about that idea of letting something grow. You can't know of assurity at first, which is one of the reasons I love the agricultural metaphor. If you plant an apple tree, how many years is it before you actually get an apple? I think it's four or five or something like that. Later on, he's going to talk about faith and diligence and patience. So I appreciate you mentioning that. This is an ongoing process that requires patience. And you can kill the tree. Yeah, as we're gonna find out if you're not careful. It's a living growing thing. It's time we're

looking at here. 28 he says give place that a seed may be planted in your heart. If it be a true seed or a good seed, I love words. He's going to drop one of those two words in the rest of the chapter. Which word do you think he's going to drop? True or good? He's going to drop true. In our culture, our LDS culture today, when we bear testimony of something, what word do we prefer? We prefer the word true. Elm is going to drop that and so is there a difference if I said I trust this church is good? I believe the Book of Mormon is good. And we don't want to eliminate true,

it's just that that's the word he drops. From now on it's good and he's going to use it a lot. Sometimes it's easier for people who are trying to build their pyramid of faith or grow their tree, test their hypothesis or strengthen their spiritual muscles. Sometimes it's easier to say I need to decide if this is good. The ability to say yes I see goodness here is sometimes a little easier than true seems to be all or nothing. So now four things we're gonna observe. If this is a good thing, if my hypothesis, and the hypothesis that he is testing here is,

is Jesus the Christ? Is he the divine Son of God? Is, the word I'm gonna plant is, have faith and believe in Christ. That's the word. We're testing that hypothesis. Does God live? Does he answer prayers? Are we led by living prophets? He is saying if it's good, if your seed is good, if what you're trying to decide is true and is good, you're going to observe four things. The truth or goodness will impact you four ways. Way number one. So he said, if you do not

cast it out by your unbelief that you will resist the Spirit of Lord, behold it will one, notice begin, it will begin to swell within your breasts. And when you feel these swelling motions, you will begin to say within yourselves, it must needs be that this is a good seed. Let me stop right there. This is the language we often use for understanding truth or believing testimony. Something in the hearts. I'm saying number one, you are going to have a spiritual, I don't even mind the word physical, reaction to goodness and truth. If the Book of Mormon is good and true, if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is good and true, if Jesus is the Divine Son of God, we're gonna see how

you plant it. That's what 33 and 34 is about, how do you plant this thing. If it's good and true, you're gonna have a spiritual, physical, I don't mind the word emotional response to it, I'm just not as comfortable with emotional response to it because you can manipulate emotion. And I like that that's not the only thing that he's gonna keep going with other possibilities, which is why this is such a great verse. Yeah, it's such a wonderful one. That's the first I'm going to feel something. There's different ways of describing it.

Alma's going to use motion metaphors. We sometimes use burning. That's a heat metaphor. Burning in the bosom. Okay. That's a heat metaphor. Somebody says, well, I don't know if I've ever felt a burning in my bosom. Well's a heat metaphor. Somebody says, well I don't know if I've ever felt a burning in my bosom. Well have you ever felt a swelling? You try and find the metaphor

that works for you. Now second thing it's going to do, I'm going to have a physical spiritual reaction to it. He says, it beginneth to enlarge my soul. I'm gonna stop that's number two you know we're guessing a little bit somehow sometimes I'll let these things mean to me number two is you're gonna have a behavioral response to truth and goodness if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is good and true if the teachings of Jesus are good and true if the Bookday Saints is good and true. If the teachings of Jesus are good and true, if the Book of Mormon is good and true, it ought to produce better people. It ought to make me a better person. I should look at Latter-day Saints and say

these are really good people. Not perfect, but these are really good people. And if you examine members of the church or believing people of other faiths, that's exactly what you find. Now we have our problems, we can be self-righteous, we can be judgmental, we're trying to be as good as we can, but the soul is being enlarged. Mercy is enlarging you, selflessness is enlarging, your soul is getting bigger and bigger, you are kinder, you are more hospitable, you are more courteous, you are more loving, you are more forgiving, because your soul is being enlarged by your examination and understanding of the teachings of the Savior. So spiritual response number one,

behavioral response number two. This is what I'm observing as I do my experiment. I'm observing this. I'm gathering this data. I'm trying to decide what it's doing in my own heart and life. What's the third thing? It beginneth again that word to enlighten my understanding. If I go to verse 34 at the bottom line in verse 34 I get the movement in the mind response also. Enlightened there, that's a light image, that's a senses image. But at the bottom of verse 34, he says again, your understanding doth begin to be enlightened and your mind doth begin to expand. That's just such good writing. I wish I could write this well. The mind expands.

Now I'm having an intellectual response to truth. Questions should have answers. Wisdom should be imparted. Jesus says, serve me with all of your heart, might, mind and strength. We want really smart people. A testimony should make you smarter. That's the third thing. It'll enlighten or expand the mind. And the last thing, for yea, it begineth, there's our word again, begineth to be delicious to me. Now delicious, I've got two sense perceptions here he's using, light and taste. He's gonna combine him

in just a second in a marvelous literary technique in just a second here. Delicious would mean you don't have to choke it down. If somebody says to you Joseph Smith got a revelation that marriage is eternal, this woman that I love, the women that you love, will always be with you. When somebody says that you shouldn't say, oh, gah, that's a horrible idea. I can't choke that down. You ought to say, wow that tastes good. Joseph Smith once said the truth tastes good. It's easy to eat. Now I'm ready. I've done my experiment. I've gathered observed data. I've planted this seed. I can see that

it's growing. It's green. It's growing, it's pulling out of the ground. Now I'm ready for conclusions. If I'm going back to my science one, I'm letting Alma talk to the modern world. I wonder if this would be a good place to talk about people who have never felt a burning in the bosom and therefore don't think they have a testimony. Maybe we can help some people if they've never felt that. The four things, I'll give you an example, we'd like a combination of all four but for me I'm more mind-oriented than heart. Some people are gonna be more behavior. Some people are gonna say I believe the church is good because look at the wonderful people that are in it. Occasionally they say, well maybe that's a social testimony, you just like the people and the culture and Alma's saying that's absolutely fine. That is a testimony that

you like that the people are good and you feel comfortable with them and that's part of it. We focus too much on the swelling, burning thing. I remember a woman coming up to me after a class and she's worried about her husband. She said, my husband's never had an answer to his prayer, a burning in his heart, a swelling. Now I knew the man. It was very intellectual, a brilliant man. And the man. It was very intellectual, a brilliant man. And I asked her some questions about him. If you asked him, why do you believe in the gospel? His answer would have been, because it makes perfect sense. Now that is a enlightened mind response.

So it's okay to have a mind testimony and it's okay to have a behavior testimony and it's okay to have a burning in your bosom testimony. We're trying to provide evidence and all these, there's different kinds of experience, authority, reason, substance that we put underneath it. Some of it is mental, some of it is behavioral, and it's okay. You just have to know a little bit about yourself. Some people are going to have more swellings and some people are going to have more enlightenings and some people are going to have more enlargeings and some people are going to have more deliciouses.

And maybe at different points in your life, one or the other will become dominant. I don't know if that answers what your concern is, but I think 28 addresses that for people who say, I've never had a burning, I've never had a swelling. I appreciate you talking about this, and I love that Alma lists all of them. That first one, a physical reaction. This is what then Elder Dallin H. Oaks said in March of 97. He said, burn within them. What does a burning in the bosom mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom. Surely the word burning in this scripture signifies a feeling of comfort and serenity. That is the witness many receive. That is the way revelation

works. Truly the still small voice is just that, still and small." And Elder J. E. Jensen said once, as I have traveled throughout the church I have found relatively few people who have experienced a burning in the bosom. In fact I've had many people tell me that they become frustrated because they have never experienced the feeling even though they have prayed or fasted for long periods of time. Glad we're talking about this and I'm glad that Alma talks about these different ways and some of us lean more towards one than another.

One of the things that swells is joy. It's an expansive kind of a thing. If you want some other words, what is it that's swelling? Well, maybe it's peace is a word that we often use, but for me joy is probably the the best word that causes that swelling and the heat of it. But we all are different people and we respond to truth and goodness in different ways. Instead of focusing on always true and always burning the bosom, Alma's given us some other things to assess as evidence

as we try and build our pyramid, we grow our tree, we're trying to find eternal laws. The burning in the bosom verse is in Doctrine and Covenants section 9. I frequently tell missionaries, keep going over to section 11. There's a great description here to Hiram Smith of exactly what we're talking about, verse 12. And, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that spirit which leadeth to do good, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously. This is my spirit. I say unto you, I will impart unto you of my spirit, which shall enlighten your mind, which shall, you just said this Mike, fill your soul with joy.

Yeah, and you've got two of those in that thing. You've got the behavior one, and you have the mind one. You're going to respond to truth and goodness. It should make you a better person, and it should give you wisdom and understanding. And fill your soul with joy. And fill your soul and you actually got three. And it's going to swell it. What's going to swell it? The joy and the happiness is going to do it.

A question that Alma could be asking here. How do you know if a seed is good? What is the only way to know if a seed is good? What is the only way to know if a seed is good? Well, you have to plant it. And I feel like the long answer is verse 28 and the short answer is verse 32. Verse 32, if a seed growth, it is good. If it growth not, it is not good. The wonderful long answer, verse 28, is about this specific seed. Now he gives a few warnings so that you don't get to verse 32. You're going to throw it away because you started with a desire not to believe.

So he says, don't start there. And even in verse 28, don't resist it. Some people can resist. You have to wake arouse and once it's growing, he's going to say don't neglect it. It's growing. It's not all at once. You've got to care. This phrase that Alma uses twice, at least where I'm looking twice, is will you give place? Will you open up? I mean, here he is saying, okay, I heard the prayer on the rami umptim, and I'm going to plant something new that you have not heard or don't currently believe. Please don't resist this. Will you give place? I love that little phrase, a willful suspension of disbelief idea.

Well, it's also time. Give it a little time, give some place. Sometimes our hearts go, well, I've got so many other things in my life and religion is not important. And that's a problem more and more in the world. No time, no desire to give place for eternal truth in my life. I've got too many other things I'm worrying about. And that's why the good soil just walked up to him, because they knew they needed something, those that were humbled. The others may be saying exactly, I don't need religion, I don't have time for that. And that's why maybe a proper prayer for ourselves or somebody else is, Lord, something needs to humble me or someone I love.

So they're prepared because if you're not humbled, you're not prepared. That's one of the givens. Yeah. As you both have been talking about soil and seeds, the phrase comes to my mind is a broken heart and a contrite spirit. So I've got this hard heart and the Lord says, you've got to come to me with a broken heart or open soil. Give place. Yeah, there's got to be a crack in that soil to put the seed in.

Yeah, that's a good observation. Well, he's ready to make some conclusions now. I've got my hypothesis Jesus is the Christ, God lives, I've planted it, it's beginning to do these things in my life. I come to my conclusions. He says verse 29, now behold would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, yea, then the warning nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge." He's going back to what he said before. This is a process. But behold as the seed swelleth and sprouteth and beginneth to grow, you must need say, here's my conclusion, the seed is good. There is something in this Book of Mormon. There is something in this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There is something in this man from Nazareth. Whatever it

is I'm trying to find out the goodness and truth of. Why? Because it sprouts and begins to grow. Now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith, yea it will strengthen your faith for you will say conclusion I know this is a good seed there's something here there's something good in it now it's not perfect knowledge it's beginning it can die very quickly but I see there is goodness here verse 31 are you sure this is good I say and you yes every seed bringeth forth unto his likeness. Then the verse you looked about, if it's not good it's not going to grow. You're not going to have mental, behavioral, physical, spiritual,

you're not going to have those responses to it. If you truly were humble and you gave place and you didn't start with a desire to disbelieve and you didn't resist what was happening, I think Alma is saying, look guys, I know what it's like to resist and be apathetic and not do this because that's what I did as a young man. Okay. Trying to tell you don't do what I did because I killed my seat at one point in my life, so don't do what I did because I killed my seed at one point in my life. So don't do that.

And then 33, now behold because you have tried the experiment planted a seed it swells and sprouts and begins to grow you must needs know the seed is good. Is your knowledge perfect? Yes, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, in your first round of experimenting, in the scene of the seed sprout up, in the laying of your foundation of your pyramid. Your faith is dormant and you know it has swelled your souls. It's your mind, you mentioned some of those things in 28. Your understanding begins to be enlightened, your mind begins to expand. It's not this real. I say in you, yay, because it is light. And whatsoever is light is good because it is discernable.

You can discern these things. This is not some nebulous spiritual thing. You can see it. You can see it in people's lives. You can understand it in your own life. And then he gives this wonderful, again this is the English major in me, after you have tasted this light. Now there is an actual word synesthesia okay it's an actual literary term synesthesia when you mingle senses so there's a poem that talks about the silent Sun usually it's a source of light so he's mingling you don't taste light you see light and's good writing. I just have to say that's good writing. When you see it in poetry and other places, you see it all over synesthesia. Here's a great example. You've tasted the light.

That's what you call the pen of heaven. the light. That's what you call the pen of heaven. The pen of heaven. Yeah, God's a good writer. Okay, he inspires. There are places in the Book of Mormon that as a person who likes to read good writing, I say this is really, really well done. It's well done in what it teaches. It's well done in its execution. It's well done in its choice of words. It's well done in its execution, it's well done in its choice of words, it's well done in its repetition of important words like good and beginneth and as we're gonna see take root and nourish. I love good writing. That short point he makes. This is discernible. You can tell. I love that point. There's a different feeling after a general conference talk than after the third quarter in a football game.

It's different. It's discernible and sometimes it's nice to point out. Can you tell how different this feels like being in the temple as opposed to going bowling? It's discernible. I love the phrase. I hope to point out to my kids, can you tell how different this feels right now? Yeah, the phrase that goes with that is not this real. So you have both of those. Well now he's just gonna give his last final thing on this, 36, after you've tasted this light is your knowledge perfect. That's the end of 35.

Behold I say unto you, Nay, you know something but you don't know all that you need to know because this isn't enough to take you through life. This isn't gonna get you through life. There's gonna be, if we go to the parable in Jesus, there's going to be some hot days that are going to come. There's going to be some shaking that are going to knock your stones down. You can't lay aside your faith. You only exercised it to plant the seed to see if there was goodness in it. But behold 37 as the tree. Now we know what kind of a plant it is for the first time. It's a tree.

It's not tomatoes. It's not cucumbers. It's a tree. It's not the sower parable where it's grain. It's a tree and we're going to find out what tree it is in a minute. As the tree begins to grow, you will say, let us, I like the us, let us nourish it with great care that it may get root, that it may grow up and bring forth fruit unto us. Now behold if you nourish it with much care, like great care, much care, it

will get root. If I go back to my science analogy, you don't turn your hypothesis into a law after one experiment. The scientific community would throw you out. What do you do? You do it again and again and again and you have other people duplicate what you've done. And after you've gone a few rounds, you begin to say, maybe my hypothesis is a theory that's a little stronger now I don't want a theory testimony I want a law testimony and I've got to experiment a lot and observe a lot and gather a lot of data before I begin to say I've discovered law, there isn't anything I'm going to

observe that's going to change my assumption that I made at the very, very beginning that I have found something true and good. If Alma's correct in this, at 74, my faith ought to be a lot stronger than it was at 18, shouldn't it? And at 25 and at 38 and at 57 and at 92. I'm at the point in my life now where I've gathered enough data, observed enough, experimented enough, watched the tree grow enough, that I would say there isn't anything you can show me or tell me that is going to shake this. I'm in law territory. Now I ought to know even better at 85, shouldn't I? Now in a sense, as we look at the church, who

probably ought to have... I'm making comparisons here, I'm doing this for fun, but in a sense, because he's continued to observe and gather data and water and nourish his tree, who probably has the strongest tree in the church. A man who's in his hundredth year, okay? I think that's what he's saying. You never quit you don't neglect it If you do it'll wither away and 39 is not that it wasn't good It's not that the fruit wouldn't have been desirable. It would have made you happier and fulfilled your life

But it's because your ground was barren and you wouldn't nourish it. So you can't have the fruit There's a wonderful quote by Henry David Thoreau who wrote in a letter to a friend so I can pull it out of his testimony of his life and how he felt about a God and truth and things and in his life he had been looking into he said I know that I am I know that I am. I know that another is. Who takes an interest in me? Who knows more than I do? Whose creature I am, and yet in some sense, whose kindred I am. I know the enterprise is worthy. I know that things work well.

I have heard no bad news." And that's what I feel about Christ and God and my faith and life. We're human, people are human, but I've heard no bad news. Hey, the enterprise is worthy, things work well. There is a God who takes an interest in me. I am His kindred. Now I suppose I could neglect it and the tree would die, even at 74. But I don't anticipate at this age of my life of anybody saying anything or scaring me out or shaking I have enough evidence now I want to continue to produce evidence you do reach a point where you're starting to pull the fruit off the tree if you want and now he tells us what the tree is in verse 40. What tree is this?

If you will not nourish the word looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, you can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life. So if we asked Alma, where does the tree of life grow? His answer would be in the human heart the tree of life grows. We each grow our own tree of life that we will feed on for eternity. When we get to Amulek in 34 he's going to say there are four purposes of life and the answer to every one of them is, I'm jumping the gun a little bit, but the answer to every one of them is I'm jumping the gun a little bit but the answer to everyone is grow a tree. Why? Because if you don't you're gonna starve when you get into heaven because you're gonna eat the fruit off your own tree and even in this life we begin to pull the fruit off our own tree. If we, key words again in 41, nourish it, nourish the tree, here's our begin, it begins to grow.

Nourish it by your faith, which means you continue to experiment and observe and gather data and great diligence, patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it will take root and behold it will be a tree springing up unto everlasting life. What is the food that will keep me in everlasting life? The fruit of the tree of life. Where does it grow? In my heart. So I'm gonna feed myself. I'm not gonna pull off your fruit root. I'm going to feed myself. I'm not going to pull off your fruit root. I'm going to pull off mine. And because of your diligence, your faith, your patience, with the word in nourishing it, it may take root in you. By and by you'll pluck the fruit there up. Now I'm going all the way back to Lehi's dream because the Book of Mormon is building. Lehi's dream gives six adjectives to describe the fruit of the tree of life. Sweet, white, desirable, joyous, precious, beautiful. These are coming from Nephi,

Lehi, and the angel. There are seven of them. Alma gives one. He's going to repeat some here and if you go back and you look at verse Nephi 8 and 11 you'll see that every time one of those words describing the fruit of the tree of life is used it's couched in a comparative phrase and Alma does the same thing here. He's read his Lehi and he's read his Nephi the fruit isn't just precious it's most precious there's nothing more precious than it and it's not just sweet we have an expression how sweet it is okay well you want to know what the sweetest thing it's the fruit of the tree of life, it's God's love, it's sweet above all that is sweet

and it is white above all that is white. Those are all repeated from 1st Nephi. And now Alma adds, pure above all that is pure. We could add beautiful exceeding all beauty, most joyous to the soul and you'll feast upon this fruit until you are filled, you'll hunger not, neither shall you thirst. We're all looking for a fulfilled happy joyous life and Alma would would say to you and I, as my mother used to say to me when I was growing up, she would say, Michael, you were born with the fruit in your hands.

Don't go out on some search out there thinking that you're gonna find greater happiness or greater joy or greater peace, something more precious, something more desirable out there than you already have. You have the most sweet, joyous, beautiful, desirable, precious, purest thing. Now don't waste time. Nurture it. Let it grow in your life. You'll not hunger. You'll not thirst. Your needs will be

fulfilled by then my brethren." She would say me then my son you shall reap the rewards of your faith and Your diligence and your patience and your long-suffering waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you We don't need great searches in life almost directing us to Maybe because he wasted time in his own life. He's trying to say, I'm going to give you the sweetest, whitest, purest, most precious, beautiful, desirable, joyous thing. Wow. That's Alma 32. I base my whole testimony of the Book of Mormon on that chapter alone. So good.

I love it when we find sister chapters. First Nephi 8, Alma 32. You can take them both and put them side by side. John, one of the first times I heard you speak live, we were speaking together. It was a best of EFY if you remember those. You were speaking first, I was speaking second. I was hoping that you would stick around to hear me speak.

You didn't. But the talk was, speaking second, I was hoping that you would stick around to hear me speak. You didn't. But the talk was, weed your brain, grow your testimony. Is that right? Yes. That's a good way of saying it. We use the word gain for testimony a lot, which is a stock market term and a really good smelling laundry detergent. But I feel like the scriptures use grow a lot more with metaphors like this. I had four S words and I still wish the last one were better, so maybe you guys can help me, but I feel like the process here is first prepare the soil, and that's the parable

of the four types of soil in Matthew 13. That's the poor among the Zoramites were good soil. Alma asks them to plant this seed, which is this word. He compares to a seed. The word is Christ and His mission. And then there's a season. It needs time to grow roots. And that's where you have to nourish it with faith and diligence and patience. And then lastly, we just talked about it, the supper. I wish I had a better S-word than the supper, but that's the tree of life. Soil, seed, season, supper. Like you said, Hank, those are sister chapters. It sounds like they're all related because Alma talked about the tree of life. And that's the supper. And in verse 39, he said, Your ground is barren. And the footnote says, oh go to Matthew 13

Your soil is not prepared and Hank you showed me something in verse 42 Where it says ye shall feast upon this fruit and you showed me first Nephi 8 28 is Contrasting and Mike I'd love to hear your comment on this. The group that makes me nervous in Lehi's dream are those who come to the tree, partake of the fruit, and then see the building and walk away. But it says in there, I think it's first Nephi 8... 828, I have it in my notes. That they taste of the fruit. Alma points out you feast upon this fruit until you are filled.

That you hunger not, neither shall you thirst. So I take that to mean you no longer care about the building because you're full. I think that's really good. If we're looking at the Lehi's dream, there's a number of lessons. One of the main ones is there isn't any more desirable than the fruit, so don't waste your time looking. Grab onto the rod, get through the mist, and get there. Because the building is empty, they've got anything to do in there, that's why they're all looking out the windows making fun of everybody because they're

bored. But Nephi and Lehi are saying, never underestimate the power of the building in its ability to pull you away or to distract you because it's powerful. Nephi says, or Lehi said, we heeded them not. You don't listen even in Korah or you're taught how to deal with the distractors of the face shakers the anti-nefile highs in Jerosh on they basically say look we know moral nonsense when we hear it so we're not even gonna listen they They don't listen. Again with Korahor, he doesn't make reply. So one of the ways you sometimes deal with it, it's not cowardice, it's sometimes, depending on who it is out there that's trying to shake the faith, whatever, Zoramite or Korahor, or Sherem or Nahor, you know, you've got a number of them.

Sometimes the wisest strategy is you don't need to listen and you don't need to reply. Even Jesus at his trial was silent. Sometimes the best thing is silence. The building's powerful. That's the world. It represents the world. When Jesus is at Caesarea Philippi, remember he asks his disciples two questions. Whom do men say that I am? And who do you say? Why that first question? Well the first question's there because we are so darn concerned we are heard animals. That's just what we are. We don't like to stray too far from the herd we don't mind being in the left lane or the right lane of a six lane highway we don't want to be in the bar a pet.

We don't want to get pushed off that much. We are constantly adjusting and looking and saying, what does the world say and think? No matter what age we are, and sometimes you have to not heed the world. Be aware it's powerful. Be aware that it's powerful. It can even pull people away who have tasted the most precious, beautiful, most desirable,

sweetest, purest thing. They've had it in their life, but I think your point is well taken. They haven't feasted on it yet. They took a taste of it. The building's powerful enough to pull you away even after you've tasted. They will cause you to doubt that you ever thought it was sweet. So beware, Alma's got lots of warnings in here. He's the best person to do it. Why? Because of his own youth. He knows something about resisting the spirit. God didn't speak to him in a still small voice. He made the earth thunder and shake, you know, it had to knock him over to get his attention. In today's world, Mike, it seems that you can poison the tree faster than before. You can go out and almost search for poison that kills the tree. Yeah, you can pull into your life.

This is a pretty good instrument to, to find things that you do have to be a little careful. Now we don't shy away from Alma didn't. He goes out and does all he can to bring people to him. He does know what audience to talk to though. That is a point that you see in there. People can put the wrong kinds of things in their tree and kill it. Be careful of what you're bringing into your life. What are you reading? What are you watching? What environments are you in? Those are all very very important things in today's

world. I have a test question for Alma 32 and 33. I ask my students, what is the seed Alma asked them to plant? And I always warn them, if you say faith, the only thing wrong with that answer is it's incorrect. The seed is not faith. He answers it in Alma 33 verse 22 and 23 and I'll edit a little bit. Begin to believe in the Son of God that He will redeem, atone, resurrect and judge. Verse 23, Now my brethren, I desire you plant this word in your hearts, and as it beginneth to swell, even so nourish it by your faith, and behold, it will become a tree springing up in you."

The word he's asking them to plant is exactly what the Zoramites said they did not believe in in their prayer. He's asking them to plant Christ and his mission in their hearts and nourish it with their faith. Yeah, that's the hypothesis he's wantinganning them to prove to be true. 33 and 34 is how you do that. What about my primary song, John? Faith is like a little seed. Faith is like a little seed. But what Alma specifically is talking about here is plant Christ in his mission in your hearts. Give place for this testimony of Christ, something that, according to what I just heard, that caused me to be astonished beyond all measure, that you don't believe in, give place that I can plant Christ in his mission in your hearts and see if it doesn't swell.

And then, requires faith to plant it, but the seed isn't faith. Not here anyway. So it's a testimony of Christ that is a little seed. And if planted, it will grow. Yeah, the Word is Christ. Oh, I love it. The Son of God will redeem, atone, resurrect and judge. Plant this Word in your hearts. If we go to 33 and 34 34 we start to get a little bit practical. Sometimes you read Alma 32 and you would say, okay plant the seed, do the experiment, talk to me in practical terms. What do I do to plant the seed or to test the hypothesis that Jesus' faith is in him? Both Alma and Amulek were

going to give us some things that are practical that I can do. What's the best way of preparing for eternity? And what is the best use of our time while in this life?