Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 6-9: Dr. Janiece Johnson

Episode Date: January 23, 2021

Do you know how many times the word “desire” is in D&C Sections 6-7? What does it tell us about the Lord and agency? Join us with Dr. Janiece Johnson as she shares her thoughts about Oliver Cowdery, the myth of a prosperity gospel, and how the Lord will preserve His people. The reality of spectacles, Urim and Thummim, and how the translation of a human being and the translation of the plates are discussed. Miracles are happening in D&C 6-9 and in our lives today.Show notes available at followhim.co 

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith, and I'm John By the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh, we want to learn and laugh with you. As together we follow Him. Friends welcome to another episode of Follow Him, a podcast designed to help individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm back with my co-host, John, by the way.

Hello, John. Hi, Hank. Yep, we are going to have a great episode today. As you know, we bring in experts from all over the church to come and tell us about these sections. These are people that most of the church doesn't have access to and we want to help people have access to these incredible brilliant minds. Today we are talking with Dr. Janice Johnson. Nese Johnson is a Willis Center Research Associate.

She specializes in American religious history, specifically Mormon history, gender, and the prosecution for the mountain meadows massacre. Dr. Johnson has graduate degrees in American history and theology from Brigham Young University, Vanderbilt's Divinity School, and the University of Lester in England. Dr. Johnson's current research centers on the Book of Mormon in practice and the relationship of early Mormon converts to their new American scripture.

And I just, I wanna ask, what was it like to go to Vanderbilt's Divinity School, Janice? I kind of fell into Divinity School. I wasn't completely sure of what I was getting myself into, but for me, it was a really expanding and faith of Fermi in experience to participate with many people of faith

from a variety of different traditions. And to, I think, get a little bit of an outside glimpse of my own religion and my faith and my belief. But it was a really, it was a really a foundational experience for me and my scholarship, but also just my self as a spiritual person. Thank you for bringing that experience here with us today. I am excited. Dr. Johnson comes highly recommended by her peers. People we've already had on

follow him. All right, let's jump into our lesson. I have my scriptures open. John, I hope you do too. Yeah, absolutely. I'm ready to take notes here. We're going to start in doctrine covenants section six. We've already talked about the loss of the pages. We've talked about Martin Harris. If I'm a first-time reader of the doctrine covenants, I run into a name of Oliver Cowdry. It says Oliver Cowdry began his labors as scribe in the translation of the Book of Mormon in April of 1829. Janice, if I'm kind of new to church history,

tell me who Oliver Cowdry is and how he comes across Joseph Smith. Oliver does a lot of things during his life. He is a clerk, he's a teacher, a justice of the piece, a lawyer, a newspaper editor. He does quite a few things, but he runs into the Smiths originally when he is teaching in Manchester, New York. The Smiths home is actually in Manchester just over the border from Palmyra. And at this time, teachers would often board

in the homes of their students, and Oliver actually boarded in the Smith home over the winter of 1828 to 1829. He hears from Lucy and Joseph about their son and about the gold plates, And he actually later has a vision of the Lord and a vision of the plates and wants to go and help Joseph. And so Joseph meets him. Joseph has actually prayed for a scribe. Emma, Martin Harris had helped him previously.

Emma had helped him, but it was very difficult for them to take care of their family and make progress on the translation. And Joseph Prey's for a scribe and very shortly gets one. I've asked my own children before, what would it be like to have your teacher live with you? Right? Mrs. Smith comes down for breakfast in the morning, right? And my kids are like, past the past the eight. Yeah. Hello. That's what she wearing her robe and pajamas. That's my question. Where she already dressed for the day. You couldn't you couldn't say I forgot to do my homework when

she's a, you know, I saw you were messing around. I remember hearing that Oliver got that job kind of on a whim, right? Wasn't it his brother's job at first to be a teacher in Manchester and then right at the last minute for some reason the job falls to all of my people? Yeah, he's going to go to meet Joseph. I'm not sure that his plan is initially to stay. We don't really know about how that,

but he wants to help. So maybe it is to stay. But he's had this witness, this prior witness from the Lord, that he should go help. He arrives on April 5th, and they start on April 7th on the translation. So there is not a lot of kind of getting to know one another

or taking that time, they just jump right in and they're able to finish the translation in a really short period of time, probably around under 70 days. But the next three months, they're spending on translation. We know they weren't spending every day. We have, you know, some days that we know they're definitely not spending on translation. So it's probably somewhere around 68, 69 days that they're able to translate the entirety of the Book of Mormon, which we have today.

There's a lot of moments in church history that I would love to have witnessed, and Joseph meeting Oliver has got to be one of them, right? Do they have any idea what they're going to see together, right? What they're going to go through together? So let's talk about section 6. Why did Joseph petition the Lord for section six? That's a great question. And I think that we don't get something in the text that tells us specifically. But early on, a lot of those who are helping Joseph

who are working with Joseph want, they want their own revelation from the Lord. I get that impulse, right? I want to go to the Lord and know what the Lord would have me do. And believing Joseph as a prophet, as a revelator, and one who can mouth these revelations for the Lord, I would want to use that resource. And we see that with Oliver.

And as the revelation begins, we get kind of some repetition. Some of the words that we had in section four, the Lord said, look, if you have desires, you're called to the work. And so some of these things are our universal. If we want to be a disciple, these are, this is a guide for us. These words are important. But for me, one of the things that repeatedly sticks out in this section is that the role of agency. I think that one of the great truths that Joseph is going to reveal to us is really the primacy of agency. The Lord here is saying, Oliver, if you have desires, then you need to ask me.

We get in lots of different ways that he asks him to, if you will, ask of me, you shall receive, if you desire, if you inquire, if you be good and you're diligent, all of these things, I think focus on Oliver and how much he wants to do, and he's already shown his initiative here, right? He traveled to harmony, he made that trip, and now he is ready and willing to help Joseph.

Yeah, I really like that. So I think you can learn a lot about Oliver from the revelation, because the Lord knows him so well. And so as you read into it, you're like, oh, I can see, I can see that this is very personal. I think it was Tony who taught us that until 1834 Joseph was giving these revelations and eventually they called his father Joseph's misceneer as the patriarch of the church, and so that kind of shifted over to him. But these first few years, what is this 1829 up till 1834? Five years, you can go to Joseph and say, what does the Lord want from me? And he can say, write this down, here we go. And that would, I would definitely take advantage of that.

Well, I love what Ginny said about the, what did you call it? The primacy of agency. And in the, the come follow me manual, it talks about, it says, notice how many times words like desire or desires appear in section six and seven. And so I kind of went through an underline, and in like in section seven, there's only eight verses, but five times the word desire or a form of desire appears. And the, our little come follow me manual says, what do you learn from these sections about and the importance of God places on your desires?

Ask yourself the Lord's question in DNC 7-1, what desire is thou that begins that revelation? So I love that, but I wanted to go back to something Ginny said because I think it's fascinating and I needed to be reminded of this. Oliver had a vision before he met Joseph of the plates. And it was kind of like he became one of the three witnesses before the official three witness event. Right. And we get specifics in the text in section six that point us to that. Verses 16 says, I tell thee that thou mayest know that there is none else save God,

the knowest thy thoughts, and the intense of thy heart. I tell these things as a witness unto thee, that the words of the work which thou has been writing are true. And so he's offering another witness. You had this initial witness before you came that propelled you to come here. And then, but he's also, the Lord's also teaching all of us something about the, about the importance of remembering. And I think that is one of the most frequent admonitions we're going to get in the Book of Mormon. Is this emphasis on remembering and remembering seeing the hand of God in one's life. In verse 22, the Lord says to Oliver, verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further

witness cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, the might know concerning the truth of these things. Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God. And I love how the Lord says, look, he's built on what the answers that Oliver has already received, but he also says, look back and remember these answers you've received. Because that provides this important foundation. Moroni does the same thing when he gives us the promise at the end of the book of Mormon. Look back and look at the hand of God and look how God has been merciful with you in your life. And that gives us a foundation. Elder Maxwell used to say, the Holy Ghost will preach to us

from the pulpit of memory. And I think that scripture also does that, but that these things bring to mind these experiences. And the Lord says, look, Oliver, you're building your testimony, your witness here. And now you get this opportunity to help translate the Book of Mormon, which is going to give you more of my words. And Oliver is a really diligent student of the Book of Mormon. That is a theme in the Book of Mormon.

If I'm the younger, in almost all of his sermons, it's very much, do you remember the captivity of your brothers? Do you remember what God has done for you? Heal him in five, right? Oh, remember, remember. So section six fits right in with, you know, here I want to witness from God. And he's saying, you've had a witness from God, don't you remember? And, you know, it would be, it would be striking for Joseph Smith, who knows nothing of that experience, to start talking about it. Can you imagine being Oliver and going, whoa, how did you know that? Hank, if I can add something quickly, sorry,

I think that to do a modern application, present Henry B. Eiring, I just remember a talk where he talked about keeping a journal. And it wasn't to document your trips and your travels and your trophies. It was document the hand of God in your life. It was a way of remembering so that you go back. And as Janice said, what was that elder Maxwell preached from the pulpit of memory? And you mentioned, no, I'm the younger. Didn't the angel say, go and remember the captivity

of your fathers. It's a great phrase, go and remember. And I love that idea. And then I wrote in my margin this morning on verses 22 and 23 that Ginny Sreadforis did not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter. It was like he was getting a revelation to tell him that he'd already had a revelation. Is that a fair statement? I like that. Here's a revelation.

He already had one. A revelation to tell you you've already had a revelation, right? And I think for those of us who sometimes get worried about the moment. When we get caught up in our present concerns, sometimes we forget that piece. But peace comes directly from Christ. Like that is the most valuable gift that we can have in the chaos of mortality. Yeah. Did I not speak, verse 23, did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? I want to add two things. One, I remember as a seminary teacher, I went to a morning

side and the speaker told the students there that they could find out, you know, from the Lord if he knew who they were and their name and he challenged them all to go home and that day to ask. And I thought, well, I'll be a good student. And so I knelt down that night, I remember. And this is probably overly personal. But I knelt down that night and I said, do you know my, and almost I didn't even get the full sentence out when I got, that was for students, not for teachers.

You need to stop. You've had this way too many times. We're not starting over. You know, this idea of like, I already told you a long time ago. So you need to, you need to just, and I almost got up like mid-sentence, like, you're right. Sorry. I, you're right. I'll, I'll move forward. And then I really like something in verse seven that just stands out to me He says to all of her seek not for riches but for wisdom I I remember an old story that it's always stuck with me About a man said you have two choices in life someone over the mentor of mine said you have two choices in life

You can chase money or you can chase wisdom, but you can't chase them both. He said, if you chase money, wisdom is not jealous. It won't chase you. It just doesn't get jealous. But if you chase wisdom, money gets jealous and chases you. So he said, always chase wisdom and you can get them. You can get them both. And I've always, that's always stuck with me. And here I see it, right? The Lord telling the Seagnot for Riches, but for wisdom. And he said, and then he adds, then you shall be made rich. He that hath eternal life is rich.

And to me, it's all of a sudden priorities become set in order. And all of a sudden I'm, I have clarity going, oh yeah, you know, this idea of you never see a you haul behind a herst, because you can't take anything with you, right? Either have eternal life is rich. I think that in section seven, I think that we all have kind of an inclination to hope for a prosperity gospel.

We want to be righteous and we want to be blessed because we want to be monetarily blessed when we are righteous. And the Lord right here is saying, look, that's a counterfeit idea. You're defined, the way that you define rich is messed up. Richness is having eternal life. And neither Joseph nor Oliver are ever going to be prosperous. They're never going to be rich from this project. They're always going to be in debt from this. And but the Lord says, look, that's a counterfeit. I'm giving you a new definition to be rich is to have eternal life and to receive that

gift of eternal life. Now, that's the ultimate paradigm shift for all of us. I think you're right, Janice. There's an insight each of us as this hope of, oh, if I'm righteous enough, I'm going to prosper. Like the book of Mormon says, you'll prosper in the land, but I might have a the wrong definition of prosper. Right? Yeah. At the end of section six, I just think some of these are beautiful. Verse 34, let earth and hell combine against you. He doesn't say, I am going to stop earth and hell from affecting you. He says, well, let him combine, but they won't prevail. If you're built

upon my rock, they cannot prevail. Another thing, 36 just intrigues me. Look unto me in every thought. And as I love to say to my students, is every a high percentage? That's a high percentage word. Yeah, every thought, doubt, not, and fear, not. And I think the gospel, the Lord actually asks us to think our thoughts according to a plan. And I think there are times when our thoughts can be pretty random or going through our day, watch a show, whatever, they're pretty random. And here's the Lord saying,

I even want your thoughts to be thought, to be remembering me. And then I just, I looked at 37 and I thought, I wanna ask both of you this, does this imply a vision? Look at 30, behold the wounds, which doesn't that mean look at this? I like look, yeah. I love, so both in 34 and 36, we get this fear not message. And I think that that plays into the remembering, right, that if we remember

these experiences, and I do think that 37 could be very literally, if Oliver has already seen a vision of the Lord, behold the wounds which pierced my side and also the prints of the nails of my hands and feet. Be faithful. You have had this witness. Now remember this witness and move forward. Don't fear. A hell will be nipping at your heels, but I've got you. You're good.

They won't prevail. Right. And signing up, I don't know. I mean, sometimes in our heads, we think, well, it's all over Caldery. Of course, he's going to sign up to be with Joseph Smith. But he doesn't know that at this time, right? This is real life for him. And signing up with Joseph Smith, like, you know, signing up to be on Joseph Smith's team here is going to come with consequences.

And there is a time where he decides it's too much. And but then he repents of that. And later comes back. One of my hopes as we're discussing this is for those who are listening to really come to a love for at least in 1829, the bravery of Oliver Cowdery to say, I'm in.

I am in. Let's move to section seven. And we can always jump back you guys if we miss something. Section 7, same month, April of 1829. I mean, they've just met and here we're receiving all these revelations. And there's a term here, Yurim and Thummim. I've heard it, I read a book called the Alchemist, where I listened to a book called the Alchemist and they called it Urim and Thumim. And I was like, no, Urim and Thumim. And Janice, could you tell us a little bit about these objects, Urim and Thumim?

We actually get this mentioned in the intro to section six. Joseph inquires of the Lord through the Urim and Thumim. The use of the word Urim and Thumim is interesting. We think that perhaps it was WW Phelps who said, this is what these objects are. So when Joseph gets the plates from the Hill Camora, with them are these Lucy Mac described them as spectacles.

Kind of thick glass that I imagine would be somewhat warped if you're just trying to look through. These are like stones, but maybe transparent stones, but they are fixed with a wire. They are fixed into a kind of glasses like old spectacles. Joseph, when he receives them, he tells his mother, she says, I can see anything, they're marvelous.

This is a really miraculous thing, but they don't really have a name for them. WWFelps says, wait, maybe this is the same thing as the Yerman Thumam that's mentioned in the Bible. And so I think they begin to pick up the use of this term Yerman Thumam because they want it to be understandable that this is something that is going to bring more knowledge. Now, interestingly, it's, Yerim and Thumim, the term in the Bible, doesn't really give us a lot of understanding.

My Hebrew Bible professor would say, yeah, we don't really know what that means. Maybe the priests were casting lots with these stones. I would say Joseph gives us a whole new answer to what you do with these stones, but Joseph is looking in these stones and receiving revelations and seeing things, not entirely unlike his his seer stone that he will use. These are objects that help him in that process of receiving revelations. Absolutely. Yeah, I love that idea when he tends to his mother. They're marvelous. As I've read the history, he almost seems more enamored with the spectacles than he does with the plates. Right. He's like, yeah, the plates are the plates are nice. The plates are a static thing, you know, but the spectacles, he can see the vision of everything. Yeah, I think for me personally, I thought that Yerm and Thumam was a morsely,

a latter-day st. term. I, you know, I hadn't opened up my old testament really like I should have. And I find out that this was something, anciently, the high priest had with him in, you know, as part of the one high priest over most, you know, the tabernacle had with him in his, you actually kept it in his clothes, right? He actually, in the breastplate of the high priest clothing, it was, you know, the things

you learned when you, when you teach, the things you have to learn, right, in order to teach. For the saints in the 1830s, they are a people of the book. They know the Bible inside and out. Their knowledge was far superior to ours today. And so they're going to get that reference. They're going to understand and in calling these stones, the Yermen Thumam, they are also expanding that this is connecting the restoration to these ancient practices, these ancient things that we already know in the Bible. This is not something wholly different. This is the same gospel, and it continues through time. That would influence how they see Joseph Smith as well, right?

That here is the high priest. Correct me if I'm wrong here, Janice, but I think from what I've read, that they also end up calling the seer stone kind of Euroman thumbam, just kind of lumping them all together as these tools of revelation. Well, so Joseph F. Smith does that more specifically than kind of the contemporaries do. He sees the seer stone as something inferior to the superior object of the Yermenthumum. And so some of that conflating happens with Joseph F. Right, because my students have asked me, was it the Yermen Thumm or was it the Seer Stone?

And I'm saying, well, by our day, they're kind of used all these terms interchangeably as tools of revelation. If we look at the actual text of section 7, it sounds like this is a kind of a question about John the Beloved in the Bible, and it sounds like they had a vision of an actual document that John the Beloved wrote, and were able to translate that through the Euroman thumb, is that right, Janice? Yes, so I think that section 7 is an odd fit in between these sections that are so focused on Oliver and Revelation, but I think that it also fits this broader us understanding how Revelation but also translation works. Most of the time we think of translation as someone going from one language directly to the next, but Joseph never claims that he's got a knowledge

of reformed Egyptian or whether this was written in Aramaic or Greek or whatever this early John parchment was. But yes, he sees it in vision and then he is able to translate or the translation is given to him. Now, how that exactly happens and those specifics, we've got lots of questions on. We don't know, and Joseph doesn't give us the benefit of explaining it all to us. He says, this all happens by the gift and power of God.

But this gives us another example and I think another example, and I think that it should help us broaden our perspective of translation. That translation is not just this narrow translating from one language to another. Actually, in the 1828 Webster's Dictionary Under Translation, a translated being, and that kind of translation actually comes in the definitions before translating

from one language to another. And Joseph, in his role, his prophetic role, he is transforming. He is translating this scripture for us. And it is transformed into a way that we can access it, that it can be intelligible to us as mere mortals. And translation does, you know, when a body is translated, it's so that that body can withstand the glory of God. This is taking a text or a source of knowledge and making it changing its form, so it can be understood by us mere mortals. Janice, I think this is absolutely crucial. You've opened my mind to this idea.

When I say Joseph Smith is a prophet, seer, revelator, translator, I've got to be careful how they are defining that term of translator because you're right. We are 2021, we're gonna assume, oh, a translator can read ancient texts and put them into the language of today. Like Google Translate.

Right, and what my kids would relate to. And Jeni, I've never made that connection. This is, sorry, I keep letting my personal lack of spirituality out on this podcast, but I've never made that connection to translated beings. That's a completely different view of the word translation and what Joseph is doing. I love what you said, broaden our view of translation

because if you get so narrow on that, you can end up kind of disillusioned. Yeah, to put that word transform with it is really helpful. Let's make that a synonym of transforming. I think there was a joke about, if you're translated, do you feel pain? Well, if you're translated correctly, or I can't remember the joke, it's something like that.

But that makes a lot more sense with the being. I was transformed in a way. And I think here, I mean, the question is perplexing enough that they're arguing about it. What happened to John the beloved? I mean, the question is perplexing enough that they're arguing about it, what happened to John the beloved. And we get an answer to this question, but I think that there is a larger purpose here, and I think it has the potential of broadening our perspective of what this project is, what

Joseph does in this role is translator. And it is not merely putting his finger, I think sometimes the official church images we have, you know, Joseph with his finger on the plates and he's reading it off to Oliver. It didn't happen that way. That's that minute view of translation. It's something much broader. And I think that that's also part of why Joseph maybe doesn't give us more, even though I'm still a little frustrated that he doesn't give us more, that it's this miraculous thing.

It is a miracle anytime this happens. And he is opening up this perspective in these ancient records to us when he doesn't have the skill of these languages to actually be able to do this. It is done by the gift and power of God. I can't tell you how excited I am about this because I think what you can do is help and notculate youth and even adults

against this idea of, well, look at the book of Abraham. It's not a real translation. Of a word for word translation. And you're going, well, that's not what was happening. That comes from a bad assumption on what you think the word translation means. What Janice has kind of opened us up to this idea of it's a much more spiritual transformation changing than it is. And that makes total sense. I mean, we're dealing with the Lord here, right? And the Lord deals in those kinds of transformations. I want to say one thing, just that I really, I was reading

section 7 and Peter is having this discussion with the Lord about, about what's John gonna do, right? And to me, anyone else think Peter's freaking out, like crap, I chose wrong. And to me, this reminds me also of 3528, where you've got the, the, the three Nephites saying,

well, I don't know, you know, there's these two, and I learned two things. One, from Peter, I may be not be so worried about other people's spirituality, right? How other people are serving the Lord and how other people, I mean, what about John? John's not doing what I think he should be doing. So, can you fix it? Right? What's going on there?

And the Lord's basically, we're going to worry about yourself. We're about yourself. And second, they've got two different desires. Peter has a desire to be with the Lord as soon as he can. John has a desire to stay on the earth and serve, and yet the Lord seems to be pleased with both. Yeah, and those are two totally different things. I've thought the same thing.

I've thought, isn't it wonderful that the Lord didn't say, you want this? Wrong, wrong, wrong. No, he didn't. He just said, that's a good desire and that's a good desire. And I'm so grateful for that that both of those are good desires and you joy in what you have desired. I mean, that's the end in verse eight there. You both joy in what you have desired.

Oh, thank you. Okay, so it wasn't wrong for me to want that. It was, they were both good desires. Thankful for that verse. I run into this at BYU, especially when present-monson made a big, the made the change for missionaries. And sister missionaries could go serve at 19. And there were some girls, many, many girls flooded the mission field, and they're doing

such good work. There are also many girls who didn't go on missions. And they've started to feel over the next few years, like second-class citizens, because they didn't serve a mission. They didn't go on missions. And they've started to feel over the next few years, like second-class citizens, because they didn't serve a mission. They didn't jump right in. And I like to use 3528, and I'm gonna use Section 7 now here too, to connect it,

that there's more than one way to be righteous. And you have this desire, awesome. I want you to, you have this desire, or this is where I want you in the vineyard, awesome, right? So I got home from a mission. My sister is 18 months younger than I am. I got home right when she was turning. It was 21 then. Everybody just expected her to go. And for her getting that answer, that that was not the right thing for her to do was really important for her and to be able to say, okay, no, this is not what the Lord wants me to do.

I also think that perhaps this gives us a good structure to think about Mary and Martha. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. It's not that Mary chose the right thing and Martha chose the wrong thing. They were both good things. There is a time to sit at the feet of the Lord, and there's a time to work in the kitchen and get stuff prepared.

Both of those things are good, valuable, worthy tasks of disciples, and neither of them should be denigrated. I'm gonna put Mary Martha next to that verse. That's great. Let's move on to section eight and nine. These seem to be about the same, kind of the same issue that seems has desires to do what Joseph is doing with translation.

So he's watching this happen. He's watching Joseph with the Euroman thumb him. He's watching Joseph with this hearstone going, I want to be, it seems like he's saying, I want to be part of that, right? I want to do that side. Why do you think, Janice, what do you think's going on here in Oliver's mind?

And why are these desires coming up? Well, I think that in the earlier revelation, the Lord opened up the possibility. He says, you have a gift. You can expand that gift in verse 11, if that will inquire, thou shalt know the mysteries, which are great and marvelous, if thou exercise the gift.

And so we get this, the Lord opens up. That was back in section 6, right? That was back in section 6, right? That was back in Section 6. The Lord opens up that possibility to Oliver, and then we get it more specifically in these sections that Oliver wants to translate. And he has that opportunity. And I think in this also opens up a lot for us

to learn about the process of revelation. But I think there are also some things that are perhaps specific to the process of translation. As I was growing up, I think that 98.5% of the talks that I heard on personal revelation quoted section nine and this pattern, because we get this really succinct, this lovely little pattern in section nine. You ask, you study it out, you ask if it be right,

and if it was right, I shall cause that your bosom shall burn within you, therefore or you shall feel that it is right. And that's verse eight. And verse nine, but if it be not right, you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong. Now, this is a lovely little formula, but growing up in the church, I never felt something that I would describe as a burning in my bosom. I was a little uncomfortable with that idea.

And I still don't know that I have felt something that I would, that aligns like that for me. And it took me a long time to realize that that's not the only way to get an answer to a prayer. That's not the only way that God speaks to us. I was comforted when I heard, I think he was then elder oak say, yeah, I've never felt something that I would describe in that way. You know, maybe I feel really warm. And I was like, oh, hallelujah, it's not just me. I have that quotation. I was excited to share this. This is from a talk,

or an article called Teaching and Learning by the Spirit in the March 1997 end sign on page 13. Wow, the 1900s. We're going way back into the 1900s. All right. Yeah, this was actually on parchment too. Okay. So this is what I guess it would then be elder, Dalai Neh Chok said, quote, this may be one

of the most important and misunderstood teachings in all the doctrine and covenants. The teachings of the spirit often come as feelings. That fact is of the utmost importance yet some misunderstand what it means. I have met persons who told me they have never had a witness from the Holy Ghost because they have never felt their bosom burn within them. What does a burning in the bosom mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom. Surely the word burning in the scripture signifies a feeling of comfort and serenity. That is the witness

many receive. That is the way revelation works. Truly, this still small voice is just that, still and small. And that's the end of the quote, but going back to section six, Oliver, remember the night I spoke peace to your mind. That's a witness. What greater witness can you have them from God? And I just might add, while I'm in section eight, it speaks about I will enlighten your mind. And I'm so grateful for that, because if I had to feel like, if I had to explain how I feel like I receive inspiration, it would be more of that. I feel enlightened up here than I feel a burning here. And we're all different that way. And it's so wonderful to hear President Oaks say, I've never had that before. I'm glad that my paraphrase wasn't completely off. I've panicked for a minute there.

No, you got it. And I was excited to share this because I think a lot of people will feel comforted in another place in the church news He said I have heard adult members of the church say they don't have a testimony Because they've never felt the burning in the bosom and I'm so really glad he wanted to correct that and say well I've never had that yeah Joseph described revelation as pure intelligence flowing unto you. And that is something that I can get. Like that is something that I have experience,

that I matches my experience. But I think the beauty is that it happens for each of us differently. And we have to learn. Julie Beck said that the most important skill that we can gain, this is again a paraphrase, but most important skill we can gain in mortality is to learn the skill of recognizing the spirit

and being worthy of receiving that spirit and following that spirit. And I think there are very few times that we can speak in such exclusive terms. The single most important gift. And that is learning that skill and it's a skill. It is not something that we just instantly get it and everything, you know, all the revelation flows down

into our heads. It takes time for us to learn that skill. And I hear we get some insight into all of our process. And I think that the more that I have gotten into the doctrine and covenants, the more I think I've grown frustrated with us focusing so much on Section 9, because I actually think that's pretty specific to the process of translation, that all of her is trying to learn that skill. When in verse in section eight, the Lord says, Yebi hold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, what shall come upon you and what shall dwell in your heart.

Now behold, this is the spirit of revelation. And I think in just the section before, the Lord says, this is it. This is your mind in your heart. And in Joseph's and Oliver's context, I think this is supremely important because intelligence and kind of that intellectual answer was elevated above emotions. Women in many instances were considered to be emotional and that was a negative thing. And here in the Revelation, the Lord says, look, you need both your mind and your heart. And both of those coming together is how you know that this is an actual answer.

And we don't say we don't negate emotions. Emotions are important. And this is not something that just silly women have. All of us have emotions and listening to those emotions is important, but it is also important that we use our brains. The God gave us brains and intellect for purpose. And this is an email, female thing. This is an everybody thing.

This is a mortality thing. We all need to listen to both our mind and our heart. I love that. Emotion and our intellect. Em love that our emotion and our intellect. Emotion and our intellect and both. And this is the spirit of revelation. This is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

And I love that Elder Holland's cast not away therefore your confidence talk is one of my favorite talks of all time. I was at BYU when he gave it. I'm trying to remember if I was a master student or I was just kind of teaching adjunct at that point. But he talks about this. Why is Moses, you know, we usually think about this as a miracle? Why is this the perfect example of revelation? Moses coming through the Red Sea. Moses coming through the Red Sea and partying the Red Sea. It's not just the miracle of it. It is a miracle, but that he received revelation of what to do. And I think that that is, you know, opposition and fear will always play a role, and Oliver

certainly knows that. That revelation almost always comes in response to a question. And when we receive that revelation, we need to go forward and trust that God will provide a way. And I think that this is really important for Oliver. The Lord says, as he continues, he says, look, you've got a gift. And Oliver has a number of gifts. But one of them here is him learning this skill. He's got some more practical gifts. We get the gift of Aaron, which is one of the instances in these verses that the language

has changed over time. Originally we have, it goes from the Sprout to the Rod to the gift of Aaron. Oliver Caldery is a douser. He uses a defining rod to find water. Farmer still today will, people have this skill to use a defining rod to find water. And Aaron held a rod. And the rod, he held Moses' rod and the rod performed the miracles that Moses did in Pharaoh's court. And here the Lord is saying, look, there's this general gift of revelation, but I've also given you a specific skill.

And you develop this skill and use this skill. It sounds like Oliver is going through very similar things as Joseph as a young man, realizing he has some gifts, right, with seer stones and finding lost objects, finding lost things. Oliver has the same gift of divining rods, you know, finding water, and the Lord's saying, yes, yes, these are good. We're gonna develop them into more spiritual, right, tools.

Is that, Is that? Yeah. Am I getting it right? I think so. But I think that we can also think about it in terms of there is nothing that is holy temporal. Everything is spiritual to the Lord. And some of those things that whether it's serostones or divining rods, which seem weird to us, because it's not our context and not something we're familiar with, but all of the temporal world,

all of is important and has spiritual implications. Wow, and I can use your gifts in the work, right? I can use your specific gifts in the work. I want it, before we move on, I want to, just, Janice, I think you taught us a skill that I want to point out. And that is, we have to be careful that when we see something like you said

in Dr. and Covenant's eight and nine about studying it out, your bosom will burn within you. If not, you'll have a stupor of thought. We've got to be careful at saying, okay, I found it. I found revelation. Now, that's how that's the pattern I'm going to teach. And throughout the doctrine of covenants, we've got to be careful about over generalizing things that maybe were specific to all of her. Like you said, specific to translation. And if we're not careful, we might end up causing a little bit of damage saying, oh, okay, now I know how to get revelation. I'll teach it to somebody else.

And they're like, well, I guess I've never received revelation then. How do I read the doctrine of governance in scripture in general and not overgeneralize, I guess, or take things that were meant for an individual and apply them to myself that we're kind of misapplying them, right, to myself. How do I, how do you be careful with that? This is kind of careful scripture study, right?

Don't misapply things that weren't meant for you specifically. Yeah. I think, I think that there are probably a couple of things. I think that contact learning context is really important. I think that that helps tether us to when this was originally given and that helps us understand, okay, is this a general principle or is this something specific to this time? So don't read the doctrine of covenants without knowing who Oliver is, who Joseph is, what they're going through. Yeah, it's easy for us to cherry pick out a certain verse.

And I think that sometimes it's reading carefully, it's trying to think about context. It's reading really carefully and not just assuming, not just reading the verses we have underlined because we really like. Sometimes I think reading clean scriptures helps me do that, reading the Book of Mormon particularly in another format or the Bible in another format helps me to think about it differently

because I don't just go to the things that I've always gone to. And but I think that and trying to to pay attention here, I don't know how long it took me to go wait. There's this much better example but it's not as neat and tidy in the section before. And I think that naturally we want A plus B equal C. Yeah, we want a formula that's always going to work. And maybe we can make some kind of general formulas that are always going to work. Elder Scott, Richard G. Scott, said, look, I can't give you a formula for revelation. It doesn't work that way. It's going to be

different. And I think that there are certain things that we can learn over time. I think there are patterns in which the Lord speaks to us. If I go back and look at my life and look at some of the biggest decisions that I've made, they've all happened in a very similar pattern. But that doesn't mean revelation always comes in that pattern. If I'm not seeing it coming in a different way, I'm missing some of what the Lord has for me.

I love the way that the the story unfolds in the Book of Mormon is Lehigh with this theophany this huge vision and then Nephi has to Pray about it. It's fun to watch the members of Lehigh's family gain a testimony one at a time and Then Nephi prays about it gets an answer. And then all he does is tell Sam. And Sam believes him. And we start to see we're talking about these gifts,

a spiritual gift for others to believe on their words. Sam believes Nephi. But the one that intrigues me is Saraya. Because Saraya, when she sees the boys come over the hill with the plates of brass, says, now I know. She doesn't say, hey, Lehigh, I just had a burning in the bosom. Her's is more, at least what we have, there could be a lot more, but what we have for Saraya

was kind of an evidence thing. Look, the Lord has protected my sons. He's delivered them out of the hands of Laban. And it's kind of fun to watch in the book more than the different ways people came to know. It wasn't every one of them had a burning in the bosom. They were different gifts. And Sam just believed as brother. And I think that's instructive. And it helps me say, look, different people came to believe Lehigh in different ways. I would say, as I'm reading Section 8 and 9, Janice, what I've heard from you is, don't be so caught up in this is how to receive revelation.

Instead, look at it as Joseph and Oliver are both learning how the Lord speaks to them. How does the Lord speak to you? Instead of going specific into here, let's just maybe say, okay, wow, Joseph and Oliver learned how the Lord speaks to them. Okay, now I really've got it, like you said, I'm going to analyze and go, how does the Lord speak to me? I'm going to look back in my life. Yeah, there is a pattern for me as well.

This was Oliver's pattern or Joseph's pattern, but I have a pattern in my life of how the Lord speaks to me. I really like that because of that. And take some comfort that for President Oaks has never felt a burning in the bosom if we're thinking of it like a feeling of caloric heat, as he called it. Take some comfort in that. And he has found out how it works for him and how does it work for you. And I just last night I was talking with one of my young adult children about the mind and heart nature of revelation. It will make sense to you, it will feel right, and we are trying to work out how this works for this particular child of mine.

And so I'm kind of like, you know, I wasn't preaching burning in the bosom I was talking about. Isn't that interesting? It'll make sense and it'll also feel right in your heart. Emotions and intellect. I have done this exercise pretty consistently with students where I ask them as we're talking about revelation. I ask them how they feel revelation. And it's always an interesting thing because And it's always an interesting thing because it starts off slow. But I have written them down. I keep track of them as people are saying, and I've made word clouds out of them. And there are, you know, some things that are really consistent for lots of people, feeling peace, feeling enlightened, though you get lots of different descriptions.

Sometimes feeling a direct no. I think that's one of the things that's interesting to me about section 9 is it doesn't give an option for a no. I have definitely gotten a no from the Lord. And it's just says no, you just forget about it. It doesn't have a no option there if we're just going with that pattern. But I think that it's really useful to not only for individuals to think about, okay, how do I feel the spirit?

Because I feel the spirit in different ways. Sometimes it is that it feels like there's this conduit attached to my head and something, you know, this direct enlightenment. But that is the exceptional thing. Sometimes the spirit makes me hyper and makes me, you know, get up earlier than I would and get ready to start working for the day. And sometimes it is that warm feeling.

Maybe that's, you know, maybe that's the burning and the bosom. I don't know, but that I just have this quiet moment. But I think that it is useful for us to recognize that everybody feels it differently. I've always wondered when Alma describes planting the word in your heart, which we know as Christ, he talks about, maybe he is helping us by giving us different reactions.

It will begin to swell, physical reaction, burning in the bosom, or you will fill your soul enlarged, or it will enlighten thy understanding, or it will be delicious. You'll say, oh, I've never heard that, but I like the sound of that, that tastes good, you know. And I thought, I wonder if Alma was doing that too. You may feel it like this, you may feel it like this, you may feel it like this. So anyway, I love this discussion. Yeah, I also, when Janice talked about, you know,

why would the Lord include Moses walking through the Red Sea as a part of Revelation? I wrote in my scriptures that maybe the Lord is saying, this is going to lead to action. This is an active thing. When you feel it in your heart and your mind and impel to act, that's part of Revelation as well as the actions that come. Yeah, that's the elder Bednar thing. Joseph didn't ask which church is right, but which should I join, implying I'm ready to act? I'm ready to move forward.

And that's maybe part of getting an answer from the Lord is the Lord knowing we're ready to act. Right? I want to know if the church is true, but I really don't want to change my life. Well, then if we're not impelled to act, sincere heart, real intent. I really intend to act. Yeah.

And we get this repeated message from the Lord, ask, and don't fear, you know, move forward. And I think those are some of Elder Holland's step and that cast not away, therefore, your confidence talk. And it's that moving forward, fear and opposition are going to come. They sometimes come before, sometimes they come right after the big decision, but they are going to be part of it. But I think once we know that, that can give us power, not just to say,

okay, I'm going to have enough faith that I won't, there won't be any fear. I, I think fear is an air and immortality. That's how it works. When we have faith, when we don't have complete knowledge, there is going to be some element of fear, but we can't be counseled by those fears. We can't let those fears paralyze us, so we can't move. We need to move. I know when I'm feeling the Holocaust because I get excited, like you said, you get a little hyper and I wanna just act. I'm like, okay, what have I been scared to do

in the last couple of days? I'm gonna go do it because I feel like I can do this. Speaking of fear, right at the end of section nine, the Lord tells Oliver, it was expedient when you commenced, but you feared and the time is passed and is not expedient now. What do you think? This seems kind of like a, I don't know, kind of a disappointing thing for Oliver to hear, right? Like, oh, but why is that an important thing for the Lord to teach him and Joseph. I think that him and Joseph in all of us, right, that there are some opportunities that we will miss if we don't act. If we don't let go of that fear, we can miss good, important

opportunities. But there is still the Atonement, there is still repentance. Even if we have missed an opportunity, there is always a way back. And there are compensatory blessings that, okay, so Oliver is not going to get this opportunity to translate right now. BH Roberts thought he just didn't get how hard it was, that it was a really difficult process, that it wasn't just Joseph looking at the sear stone and suddenly he's got the whole translation, that there was a lot of mental effort. And I think BH Roberts might be speaking beyond the sources a little bit there, but something

happened with Oliver that he couldn't do this But that doesn't stop his progression. It doesn't halt his progression We repent and we move forward Mistakes and sins are part of mortality. They're part of how we function and the whole plan and We shouldn't let that again paralyze us and stop us from doing good. If we know we've sinned, we repent, and we move forward. And there are some opportunities we'll miss. But it's okay others will come.

Yeah, the Lord seems okay with it. You feared the time past. Neither of you is condemned, he says in verse 12. Neither of you is condemned. I'm not verse 12. Neither of you is condemned. I'm not, yeah, you feared, you missed it. But that's okay, let's keep going. And I love that with my own children, in my own life of, yeah, we missed that one. Yeah, and for some reason, we want to be able to hit it every time, right? That's our nature. I don't want to miss a single opportunity. And the Lord seems a little bit more flexible with, yeah, you missed that one. And that's our nature. I don't want to miss a single opportunity. And the Lord seems a little bit more

flexible with, yeah, you miss that one. And that's okay. We're going to, we've got plenty ahead. I want to hear anything else that either of you have for section 678 and 9, and I want to add something while you're thinking. One overarching principle for me in these sections, at least in this part of the history, is that the Lord can raise up friends. That here I am, Joseph's been called to the work, he's lost the pages, and he's really down, and he's praying for a friend, right? You said he's praying for a scribe, and the Lord provides that. And I can think in my life of people that I feel like the Lord has raised up to cross my path at the right time to really build my confidence and to accelerate my growth.

I mean, you said, Janice, I mean, this is what, less than 70 days, the translation goes into hyperspeed once Oliver comes. And so I hope that anyone listening can maybe look back in their life and think of those that God has raised up at the right moment for you. That's something to always remember,

like we talked about earlier. Remember what the Lord has done for you. Remember the friends that God has raised up. I remember meeting John when I was, 2008, we met for the first time, right? Here we are. You were a teenager. I was, yeah, I'm not talking about the 12-year-old one.

That was back in the 1900s, but I remember meeting John when I was an adult for the first time and had no idea that we'd become such close friends. And that John has, I feel like the Lord had us crossed paths at the right time and really has blessed my life. The idea of studying it out in your mind,

this is section nine and we all know this is specifically about translation, but that idea has really blessed me too. I'd love to tell the story of my mission president when I told him one day, hey, there's this problem. And he said, he said, elder by the way, do you wanna get ahead in business or life or something? And I said, yeah, and he said, solve your boss's problems.

He said, never come to your boss with a problem. Always come with a recommendation. Now, I'm taking this and making it a world application. I'm not talking about translation right now, but it helped me tremendously to think what would President do? What would President say? How would President solve this? And I know that Hank and I both love to talk about the brother of Jared having this problem with the barges. And now he had to go figure it out. And doing that work is kind of when the revelation came. The studying it out in your mind parts.

So, although everything we've talked about, even 100% on board, with this is about, specifically, about Oliver and about translation. But I love the idea of having the Lord do a little bit of the work before coming to him when we have a question or a problem and That idea of studying out in your mind has really blessed. Yeah, John I think you're I think you're right on here and it I don't think it's as much as I don't think it qualifies as like the burning of the Busom reference because study it out is a common theme throughout the scriptures, right?

And I love that you brought up the brother of Jared because that's immediately where my thought went where he says, what should I do about the light? The light, the air, I can't, we can't steer. Yeah, and the Lord's response is, well, in my language, it's, I gave you a brain, use it. I'll figure it out. Go figure something out on your own.

Go, you know, bring me something. Bring me an idea. I can make your idea work, but bring me an idea. Bring me the fish and the loaves. I can make it work, right? But you've got to bring me something. So study it out to me. That could be a family night with my kids, right?

Or that could be a seminary lesson or whatever of how the Lord expects effort on our part. And that's a theme throughout the scriptures. There's also the steering of the boats where the Lord tells the brother of Jared, I'll take care of it. And I've received that answer before.

That's my problem, not your problem. Yeah. Right? The battle is not yours, but God's. That's my issue. So, these different forms of revelation that we're drawing out of the scriptures here are crucial for people to say, oh, wow, that happens to me. And that happens to me.

Not that one so much, but yeah, that one, that one a lot. My last thought about these sections, I think I just want to read a couple verses from section 9, because I think this applies to the process of revelation, but also just more broadly to our time and mortality. And the Lord says to Oliver, be patient my son for it is wisdom in me. And that plea for us to be patient. And he's just, he's just said, yeah, sorry,

you missed out on this opportunity. It's not going to work. Don't do it. Um, but and then the last verse, that was verse three. And the last verse of section nine, stand fast in the work where, wherewith I have called you in a hair of your head shall not be lost and you shall be lifted up at the last day, amen. Part of believing in the atonement of Jesus Christ is believing that all things can be restored to us. Even those things that we have purposefully sinned or purposely lost or messed up on. All of those will be come back to us. All of her will get this lost opportunity. It will be restored to him ultimately. And that is not nothing is in the gospel of Jesus

Christ. Nothing is irredeemably lost. It always can come back. And that is the restorative function of the atonement that ultimately all of those things can be restored to us. Janice, I have a question for you. There seems to be sometimes a myth among people that the more you get to know church history, the more you'll become repulsed and you'll say, I can't believe anymore. And that is a narrative out there. I've heard it from my students, I've seen it online, right? I was a believer until I really studied church history, but here we have you, Dr. Johnson,

who knows everything there is to know about this specific part of the church's history and a broader term. I mean, you have studied when we talk Mount Meadows. That's one of the most controversial, one of the most difficult pieces of church history. You know it probably better than anyone. And yet here you are a believer.

Can you let us into the mind and heart of Janice Johnson here? And how can someone be this brilliant? Know this much. And yet you don't fit the myth of the more you know, you check out. Well, you know it as well as any anti-mormon website, any truth seeking website, you know it as well as they do.

There's a student who can come to you and say, Dr. Johnson, I don't want to rock your faith, but I'm gonna tell you something that I've learned and you're gonna go, I've never heard that. Right. It's a good question because I think that I think there are a couple things. I have spent, I don't know, let's see, I started working on mountain meadows in 2000. So yeah, that's a long time. But having spent that much time in what I think

arguably is the darkest moment in our history, um, I think that there are a lot of things, um, it has changed me. It has changed how I approach church history. If I might offer a bit of a critique of something you said earlier, Hank. Please, please. You talked about using anoculation as this term. I actually don't love that. Anoculation because to anoculate someone against a virus, actually our new COVID vaccines work

function differently. But old school immunizations would give a little bit of the virus to inoculate against it. And I don't think church history is a virus. And I just, I think that yes, those of us who have, who study church history and have, have given our lives trying to study this, we know it more deeply. And we know the dark corners.

But we also know the beautiful miraculous moments. And I don't think, I think that it's important that we recognize them all. I don't think that we should try and shove things under the rug or try and make church history, cram church history into nice cute little boxes with bows on top. You know, primary does this, but as we become adults, we need a more complete version. You know, we need to take seriously when people have hard questions because those are real hard questions.

We don't just pretend that that's a lack of faith that is brought about that question. Questions are real. We wouldn't have a restoration where it's not for a punk 14-year-old kid with questions. But when you look at it all, I cannot ignore the light. And there is so much light and goodness, and the gospel has changed people's lives. Now that doesn't mean that it suddenly made them not human. They're still human with imperfections and sins and mistakes and things where we really wish it would have gone a different way. But that does not negate the overall goodness and the light that is there. I thought of my own life and it has both dark times

and light times, but the dark times are important. As much as I kind of go, let's not talk about that, let's not bring that up, but they're important. They're important to who we are and who, I've become so it would, with the church, right? Our dark times have. Yeah, the dark shapes us as much as the light does. And Lehigh teaches us that there's opposition in all things

and that includes each of us. We call ourselves saints aspirationally. We want to become the holy ones. That doesn't mean we're already there. We don't have a Catholic idea of sainthood that we've already done three acts that cantonize us and make us officially saints. We use it aspirationally.

We want to become holy. And in that search, there is light and there is dark. It's there for all of us. Culturally, maybe we like focusing on the light, but the dark shapes us as much as the light does. And we do need all of those things. They all have the ability ultimately to be turned to our good. I love that.

We are, Latter-day Saints, hopefully. We are Latter-day Saints. The Church of Jesus Christ, the Latter-day Saints, we really want to be. We're working on it. Yeah, we're working on it. Come join with us and work on it together. Someone asked, I was with the Michigan Vandian once

and someone said, our Mormon's Christian and he said, oh, most days. You know, like we really try to be. And I thought that was a perfect answer. Dr. Johnson, Janice, I think I have been so edified today. And I feel like I understand this portion of church history and these sections of the doctrine governance just a little bit more, right, John?

Absolutely, beautifully spoken. I will not forget that phrase. I can't avoid the light. It's there. My friends, thank you for joining us on another episode of Follow Him. We hope that you are enjoying all the episodes so far. We hope you're learning and stick with us as we are learning how to run a podcast. So, thank you to Dr. Johnson, thank you to John, by the way, and we're especially grateful to Steve and Shannon Sorenson, who are our producers, along with our production team, Lisa Spice and David Perry. Join us next time. Thank you so much.