Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 77-80 Part 1 : Dr. Craig K. Manscill

Episode Date: July 10, 2021

Have you had a question you would ask the Lord? Joseph and Sydney Rigdon asked the Lord about specific parts of the book of Revelation. They received answers that help us understand mercy, the Second Coming, and the language of symbolism. Dr. Craig Manscill teaches how Doctrine and Covenants 77 helps us understand how God reveals his mysteries to the earnest and devoted seekers.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Hello my friends, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. I am your host, Hank Smith. I am here with the indomitable John by the way. Hello, John. I don't even know what that means. I was domedable at one point. But then I were I've driven to become indomitable. All right, um, we thank you so much for joining us. Hey, make sure you find us on social media. We thank you so much for joining us. Hey, make sure you find us on social media.

I can fight us on Instagram, on Facebook. You can find transcripts and show notes on followhim.co, followhim.co. And be sure to rate and review the podcast. It really helps us out. John, as usual, we have a great mind with us today, someone who has dedicated their life and career to church history. Tell me, tell us who we have.

Oh, I will. We have Dr. Craig Mansill with us today. And I have seen him many times on the BYU roundtable discussions that are still on YouTube now. And Brother Mansill of formative years were in the small farming community of far west. I thought that was so cool. How appropriate?

Somebody that there's a far west in Missouri, this is a far has an extra R, far west on the outskirts of Ogden. Brother man's still served in the Ohio West Virginia mission and is married to Jenna Hansi. They're the parents of eight children. He has been a religious educator for over 25 years with either church educational system.

And more recently, a BYU religious education, he received his undergraduate degree at Weber State College and his masters in PhD from BYU. He enjoys gardening, the great outdoors travel, and is an ultra-distance runner. That sounds indomitable to me. His hobbies include beekeeping. I don't think we've had that distinction on here yet, Hank, to have a beekeeper. He keeping reading and photography, and he teaches doctrine comments, teachings of the living prophets, doctrines of the gospel. His areas of expertise are 19th century church history, South Pacific church history, doctrine and covenants, presence of the church and document

editing. And the thing I found most interesting on this bio was that he reads and speaks Fiji in. Now, I don't think, they speak that in West Virginia, how did that happen? they speak that in West Virginia, how did that happen? I had a church assignment in Fiji, Suva Fiji at the church school in Suva for three years. Wonderful. Oh, wow. Oh, that's great. Well, that's a wonderful bio, and we're so glad to have you welcome to follow him. Well, I think we're ready to get you. Welcome to follow him. Well, I think we're I think we're ready to get started. Let's jump into this week's lesson, Craig. We're studying sections 77 through 80.

Right. Let's start with section 77 then. Section 77. It is a section that's associated with the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. As early as 1830, once Joseph Smith had organized the church, Joseph Smith's next mission was to bring about the JST translation. He's presently in Hiram, Ohio. This is section 77. We're talking about section 76. It was also a result of Joseph's JST work, of course.

And now here we are about a month later, Joseph and Sydney are still up in Hiram, Ohio, and they ask a series of questions about the symbolism in the book of John. So that we're talking about John the Revelator, the book of Revelation. This is a 22 chapter book, and Joseph Smith will ask 15 questions. Sydney Rigden is described, and he's's asking questions and he's being answered by the spirit as he he's working with the JSTs. Looking at these verses, looking at the Finney Bible, the pulpit-sized Bible that was published in Cooperstowns, New York, that's in front of him and he's going through the book of revelations, especially from chapters 4 to chapters 11. And Joseph will come up with these 15 questions.

Now, apparently, this is after the fact that he's been working on the JST during this month of March. And now, these questions are percolated. Probably between him and Sydney, Sydney is a great scriptorian and they've been thinking and talking and finally Joseph is down in a revelatory manner and then gives us this revelation, at least it's recorded. We assume by Sidney Rigden, it could have been Jesse Gaws. We're not exactly certain of that, but nonetheless. Yeah, this is this is fascinating because it's a different section than I remember reading this one as a kid

And I was like wait what question and answer with the Lord I'm like I would be asking different questions So it really helps that you're saying we know we're studying the book of Revelation, right? Because I would be asking other questions of the Lord say, right? Oh boy. And are you coming again? Things like that. But it's specific to the Joseph Smith translation, what they were, what they were doing. Hyromohyle, that's the John Johnson farm, right? So yeah, they're up at the John Johnson farm in Hyromohyle. And it's interesting, this is a unique revelation. It wasn't originally included in the Book of Commandments or the 1835 edition or the 1844 edition

of the doctrine covenants. This revelation is included in the 1876 edition published in Utah under the direction of Brigham Young. Brigham Young gave Orson Pratt the church historian at the time and the oldest apostle serving in the Cormoran XII, the assignment to give us a new addition of the doctrine of covenants. And Orson Pratt included 26 new revelations that hadn't been included. And this is one of those 26. Now, to give that a little bit more context and why that's important to understand what's

going on here is that Orson Pratt was just this great scriptorian and he loved to use the scriptures to validate Joseph Smith and the great doctrines that he taught. And this this revelation had been, you know, hadn't been included in the doctrine covenants. And it's also worthy to note here that other important revelations that had been left out of the DNC at this point are such as, now listen to this, DNC 2, DNC 13, DNC 110, and they're all to do with what? Visitations from heavily messengers. And so that's where section 77 fits in to. It's a great vision of the apocalypse or events of the leading up to the second coming from John the Revolator. Okay. And it seems to me that correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think I've heard you say

this before that this is not a this is not a meant to be an all-understanding of the book of Revelation. It's meant to open the door to us saying, hey, I wanna understand more of the book of Revelation, maybe a little taste. Would that be correct? Yeah, you write on Hank on that. Is what this is, is these are keys

for Latter-day Saints to better understand the book of Revelation. Latter-day Saints, because of modern-day revelation from Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, even, yeah, Nephi is involved in this in, in First Nephi chapter 14, Nephi sees, you know, this whole, the pan, panorama of the history of the world, but he was told not to write about it, whereas John was told to write about it. And so here we have, you know, John the Revelator is giving it and he's working on the JST. So we as Latter-day Saints are are admonished to, you know, you know, greater the words of Isaiah and greater the words of John. And Joseph Smith said at one time in his teaching, the book of Revelation is a plain book for all of us to understand. Let's us know the

difference between where Joseph is with Scripture understanding and where we are as Latter-day Saints, because to him it was plain, and he asked these 15 questions to help us as Latter-day Saints as much as himself to better understand what's going on in this great vision. Yeah, I've always thought that I've heard it said, well, it's easy for Joseph to say, he probably saw the same vision, so we're trying to read it. Yeah, we're reading the book, he saw the movie. Yeah, you know, Joseph's in great company, Enic, Joel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, you know. Nephi. This is the kind of, yeah, the brother of Jared,

these boats have seen the panorama. Most of them haven't been able to write about it, but here John is asked to do that. Maybe I can give a little bit of more historical background to the author of it to make sure because the world sees this book differently, the book of Revelation, they don't necessarily agree with where we come from our standpoint of our earlieststrian doctrine on this great book. We certainly believe Nephi saw and identified in, in verse Nephi chapter 14, verses you can look at those 16 through 19, that this was John the Revelator,

the same John the Beloved, the Son of Zebede and the Son of Thunder. So his brother was, of course, James, and it is Peter James, and who, John, who appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Catery to restore the Melchizedek priesthood. So, and yes, we believe John was translated, a translated being, and we believe that this where he received the revelation was on the Isles of Patmas in the Argerian Sea, and there he had been exiled by the Nero, the Emperor of Rome to, yeah. So he'd been exiled there.

Fortunately, I've been out to Patmas, had a chance to look around in the cave where supposedly he had received this great manifestation when he calls it a vision. What this revelation is this vision is about is John is allowed to pick up Penn and write down what he sees. And if you could remember section 76, when Joseph and Sidney are sitting there and receiving it, Joseph says, I see this and Sidney says, I see the same. Well, John didn't have a companion or an eyewitness to see what he sees. He was by himself and he takes a pin

and he's asked to write this down. So in the first chapter, his audience, so who he's writing to are the seven churches in Asia Minor and Ephesus being one of those. Today they all reside in the country of Turkey just to give you an idea. And so that's who he's writing to, That's his audience. But then, of course, his audience now is since it was canonized and put in scripture in the New Testament. It's in the

entire Christian world. And there isn't, of course, another book that it says, treated like the book of revelations being apocalyptic and symbolic. And so that's sort of the setting with John, and that's what's going on here. One of the points, so maybe I can just sort of, what is this vision that he sees? So John is seeing the big picture, starting in the fourth chapter of the book of Revelation, John sees a door is opened, and through that door he

sees into the heavens, and he sees a throne, and upon that throne is our God. And around him are the seven candlesticks, which later on we learn that candlesticks very well might represent great patriarchs or prophets in the latter days, but there are seven candlesticks. In front of him is this great globe or your mothama or sea of glass that's in front of him, and seated around him are 24 elders, 24 elders who are supposedly associated with the seven churches that are in Asia Minor. And as the vision unfolds then, John, the God of Heaven, who is on the throne, and Jesus, the Lamb of God, is there next to a side on his right hand. And the God of heaven holds up a book, a book appears in his hands, and he holds it up.

And in that book, or a scroll, it's either a book or a scroll, there are seven seals on it. And who picks up the book from the God of heaven, the Savior himself, who is the only one worthy and qualified to open the seven seals, both symbolically and essentially when he opened up his seal of his dispensation in the reading of time when he comes into mortality. So there's the seven seals, and that's really what the book, the rest of the vision is about, is the opening of these seven seals. Craig, can you talk about just the, I've heard apocalyptic described as a kind of a type of writing like in Daniel, Ezekiel, and even first Nephi 14 that it's kind of a, can you talk about the difference between our average scriptures and what apocalyptic scriptures are?

This is a Greek word that means to unveil or to reveal that which is hidden from mankind. It's cloaked in symbolism of, in this case, either for beasts or for horses or, you know, just a number of things that are going on. And so it's apocalyptic in that it reveals events prior to Jesus' first coming and his second coming, a good deal of the revelation of the chapters deal with prior to his second coming, his second coming and events after his second coming. So it reveals, John, is what it's doing. It's revealing things that have been found in no other place in Scripture, in our canonized Scripture, meaning the biblical Scripture. Would you say that's true, then, of the other books that seem to be written in this style, places scripture in our canonized scripture meaning the biblical scripture.

Would you say that's true then of the other books that seem to be written in this style like Ezekiel and Daniel, they're revealing things that are nowhere else. That's correct. Yeah. And Isaiah. Yeah. Yeah. And I that helped me just to know this is a different sounding kind of scripture. And there's things that are even hard to visualize. I remember Richard Draper saying, well, maybe it's better to listen to Revelation than to try to picture it, to hear the symbols. You know, that helped me to, oh, okay, I'll approach it differently. Right.

And you know, you bring up Richard Draper, one of our great colleagues there at BYU, who's retired now, but I'll tell you Richard, there was when he taught the book of Revelations, it was amazing. And if you don't, I have his book here and it's titled Opening the Seven Seals and you know what, that's what the main story is here and showing the you know the serpents and the dragon who was symbolized as Satan and Lucifer, both in the pre-mortal life and the mortal life, and even the post-mortal life when he goes into and he's bound in the latter days, talked about in this revelation. But the revelation really focuses on, as the depiction here of the picture, it

focuses on the Lamb of God and his role in bringing about an overcoming the great evils that will confront mankind and Christianity in the latter days. One of the things I remember Richard Draper saying that I thought, oh that's really interesting. He said that if you don't want Scripture tampered with, if you don't want the text tampered with, you write it in code. An apocalyptic was the code. And I thought, that's a good way to put it because nobody knew it to do with it. You better copy it literally, even if it sounds strange. But that was the way he put it in code. And maybe 77 helps us decode a little bit. Yeah, at BYU, we started a new class, couple of years ago called Christ the Everlasting Gospel,

where you don't just study his life, you study broader, you know, back in the Old Testament and further into the New Testament. And it forced me as a teacher to start teaching the book of Revelation, which is something I really hadn't taught before. And the thing, probably the two keys that I've noticed in the book of Revelation is one, is I didn't realize this is a book of hope. You know, when you think the book of Revelation, everybody thinks, you know, the destruction and war and it really is, it finishes with Zion, right?

Zion has come on the earth, the last three chapters are all about Zion being on the earth. And the other thing that I've realized, and we don't have to go in the details here, but the people of John's day would have understood this because he borrows so much from the Old Testament. He borrows for Isaiah, he borrows from Daniel, and these are things that they would have known, you know, that that was their scripture, right? And it's a message of hope. you know, that that was their scripture, right? And it's a message of hope. It was a, I guess I'd always thought of it as, oh, wow, it's just lots of destruction and wars and famines.

But yet, when you read those last three chapters, you're feeling this sense of, you know, what an Edward Partridge write, let Zion in her beauty rise, because of how beautiful it is at the beginning and the end. The middle is a little scary, but the beginning and the end are wonderful. The great story and the positive hope about the entire book of Revelation is this, is that good overcomes evil and w wins out in the end. And it takes the Savior by the power of the priesthood

to do that by his gift and the power. The great creator of this earth himself will take that magnificent role in those latter days to overcome evil. And that's that hopeful message that I think we need to cling to, especially in the times of day that we live in now. I mean, I imagine people are trying to equate COVID some way to one of the plagues talked about,

one of the bulls that are spilled, anyway, talks about, gives that imagery, because it's been a tough go, and we wonder what's happening. And it was, we've never lived through a pandemic. Any of us, I mean, not since, you know, the 1918. Yeah, we want to look at a few of these verses in here.

Some of the ones that are more prominent. And I think the one thing that come follow me, teachers, need to try to realize when they're teaching 77, is not to turn it into a lesson on the book of Revelation. I think the best thing is to try to help everyone realize that this is a lifelong process to study this book. It takes, and it's well worth your time and effort to engage yourself. There are several, you know, to understand the Book of Revelation and these particular verses, it

does really require to look at modern-day scripture, other places in the doctrine of covenants, as well as go to the Book of Mormon to help understand some of the interpretations. So let's start off just, I think we've given some pretty good background to understand historically where this comes in, how it fits and who it is. So let's jump right in. There are 15 verses in here, you can look at it, and which represents the 15 questions, and each questions has an answer to it. So, let's jump in on the first one, which is Rida in Revelation chapter 4. What is the Sea of Glass spoken of by John in the fourth chapter and the sixth verse of Revelation?

And the answer is, it's the earth in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state. So our knowledge of the history of the earth, according, you know, within the context of Christianity, we've taken our understanding to some different levels when it comes to our revelation. For example, let's just, in verse 6, angels do not reside on a planet like this earth, but they reside in the presence of God on a globe like a sea of glass. So now we get the concept of the sea of glass as a globe. And if you could just picture an orb, an orb, a globe. And if you remember when they coronate a king, even today, the king of Queen or England,

what do they put in the hand? Yeah, a globe. A globe, an orb. Meaning that they're power and authority reigns throughout the entire earth. And this is a concept of a globe like a sea of glass, a fire where all things for their glory are manifested, past, present, and future. So this really helps us to understand how the God of heaven, who has this orb in front of him, which is a Euromum Thumum, and the Nix verse says, the place where God resides is a great

Euromum Thumum, and he can look into this orb and he can see past, present, and future. Now, how would that be? That's an amazing concept. So that helps us to understand how God can place someone like we're going to learn about Jared Carter because he's looking at Jared's past life and his present and where he needs him in the future to be a missionary. And so he, and how he can hear your prayers all at once, all of our prayers on planet earth as a God, because he has past present and future knowledge all rolled into one. And then verse nine, this earth, this earth, in its sanctified and in mortal state will be made like unto crystal and be a yurum and thumam to the inhabitants who dwell therein there,

whereby all things pertaining to an inferior kingdom and all kingdoms of a lower order will be manifested those who dwell on it and this earth will be whose Christ it'll be Christ and so that's really important to he's the creator of this earth. And when Jesus created H2O water, and then he's on the sea of Galilee, and he says, peace be still. And the water, you know, goes from raging to calm. It's the the molecules of the water, listen to Jesus, because it's Christ world.

the molecules of the water listen to Jesus because it's Christ's world. And so in those days that John sees in the apocalypse and the coming of these future events, he will be in charge when it comes and he'll come in this time with his power and great glory and in great majesty as he's upon his steed and horse this time with a red robe ready for battle which with the Jews wanted for him to be during the meridian of time that's what they wanted from him so just a little verse you know just Joseph is trying to pull this together what is the sea of glass and you know and then it gets to inspiration that comes of what it is. So I'll just say this, if you want to hurt your mind, if you want your brain to just stretch, think about that statement in verse seven where he says, past, present, and future are continually before me. I see them all at the same time, right? That will, I've said that to my teenagers here at home

and they're like, you can almost see their brain going, what, right? It's just, it brings back what did I say? My ways are not your ways. Yeah, my thoughts are not your thoughts. And I think Joseph Smith talked about one eternal now, that phrase sound familiar, that with God time is one eternal now, that phrase sound familiar, that with God time is one eternal now. And I like too that Craig pointed out this verse

because the definition of truth in section 93 is knowledge of things as they are, as they were, as they are to come. And there's that past, present, future truth. He knows it all, right now. That's a beautiful idea. What did Craig, you can correct John and I here when we get it wrong, but I think Joseph Smith taught in order to worship God, you must know who he is. And this is kind of the idea of you can trust him because he is omniscient.

He sees all things continually before him. That things are present with him. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I think it can give someone a lot of hope knowing that God not only sees you as you are, but sees you as you're going to become. He sees, well, I think Elder Worthlin said, he sees the glorious being you are going to become.

He sees that right now. He sees the best, the best self of you in the future. And if we'll turn our life over to God and to Christ, they'll make the best of it, rather than if we try to direct our lives ourselves. I'm really with you on that. It's such a powerful thing we're talking about here. This idea of past, present, and future. I love the concept.

And truth is truth. And that's what I love about, you know, that's happening here. There are core truths and supporting truths, and we're really getting into these really core, to know the nature of God is absolutely essential for us, that he's a corporal being, that he exists, that he is somewhere in the universe,

and that he has the power of a God because he has all knowledge and the most important thing he's obedient to all of the knowledge that he has. Knowledge alone won't save us. The book of revelations won't save us, but acting upon our knowledge that we learn, acting upon our through ordinances, faith, baptism, etc. That will save us in the latter days so that we can become like God. I like how you're doing this with us saying Joseph's knowledge from section 77 started bleeding into his other revelations. That's a cool idea where you're going, oh, he really took these revelations to heart.

He really studied them. He really believed himself to, sometimes people say, oh, Joseph, this con manner, but no, he believed himself to be getting answers from God himself and using them in his life. Yeah, you could go to DNC section 88 versus 18 and 19 and more of this stuff on the history of the earth and the sea of glass that's at there. So Joseph will talk about this in several places. But yeah, moving on to another verse, the next couple of verses teaches an important pattern. Are we back at him?

77? Craig, are we back at him? I'm back in 77. Okay. And I'm in going to verse 2, 2 and verse 3. I really want to look at these together because these two verses talk about the question is, what are we to understand by the four beast spoken of in this same verse, meaning this John chapter four, verse six. And then the second question in verse three is, are the four beasts limited to individual

beast or do they represent classes or orders? What I want you to look as we read the answers here, the pattern is that they are, Joseph, the answers that come, they are both symbolic and figurative as well as literal. So we, you know, it's not one, just one, it could be one or the other, literal versus figurative. And if you'll notice the in verse two the answer to up these what what about these four beasts? They are figurative expressions used by John the revelator in describing heaven the paradise of God the happiness of man and Beast and of creeping things and of fals of the air that which is spiritual Being in the likeness of that which is temporal and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual being in the likeness of that which is temporal, and that which is temporal in the likeness of that which is spiritual, and the spirit of man in the likeness of his person as also the spirit of the beast and every other creature.

Then look at the answer to four. They are limited to four individual beasts. Now they're literal. So before he sees him as figurative, and now the answer is, well, they're also literal, and they represent, yeah, you see, they limit the four individuals which are shown to John to represent the glory of the classes of beings in their destined order of spirit of creation in the enjoyment of their eternal felicity. In other words, yeah, these are animals. Joseph Smith is taught in his teachings that animals will be resurrected to their eternal. They have a felicity, they have a creation,

they have a purpose in the plan, and he's talking about these beasts are literal as well as they show a figurative kind of symbolic message that you can find in verse two and three. So that's a beautiful idea. That's a scripture study skill. We all need to have is when we get into a apocalyptic scripture being able to try to discern what is literal and what is symbolic. And sometimes it can be both. And you're not to limit it to just one or the other because there's a lot of times in

I think it was, Eldon Rikonky, John, you'll have to correct me on this, you know Eldon Rikonky best. But who taught that a lot of the story of Adam and Eve is symbolic, but Adam and Eve are literal human beings. Right? And so you can't, there's a, I don't know, Craig, when you teach your classes, how do you help students navigate between literal and figurative? That's not easy to do. It's not, and that's why it's good when you get into these kinds of settings to get into some of the good commentaries out there

on the book of Revelation, Isaiah, and listen to men who have been directed by the influence of the Spirit, or particularly those who lived in the days of Joseph Smith and wrote and published on some of the things Joseph is talking about is, Joseph has given us a lot of teachings on what this means and what that means. So we don't have to feel like we can, we don't have to flounder with these understandings.

Within, you know, arm's length, we can find the commentaries and we can find the articles that have been written out there on the book of Revelation. Yeah. There's a point in the book of Revelation where Jesus opens His mouth and a sword comes out. And I've asked my students, let her all are figurative. And they're saying, I hope it's figurative, right? I hope it's symbolic.

And I said, I think we can, that one's a symbolic one, right? His words will pierce you to the heart. And Richard Draper says it just keeps coming out. It doesn't stop. It just doesn't stop. It's continuous. And so sword and word are often the word of God, the sword of the spirit that just, but it keeps coming, which makes it even stranger to see. But when you hear it, you go, oh, okay, the word of God continually comes forth.

Craig, I love that. One question. Yes, they're symbolic. The next question? Yes, they're literal. No. And that reminds us of, you know, Isaiah, don't think, oh, it means this.

Well, it probably means this and this and it could be a duel or a multiple fulfillment, you know. And so don't limit it. Let's go to verse five. What what are we to understand by the foreign 20 elders spoken of by John? And I love this answer here because it's important as we consider who these elders are and try to think about it in our day and age. We are to understand that these elders whom just John saw were elders who had been faithful in the work of the ministry. And they were dead, they had passed on

who belonged to the seven churches. And were then in the paradise of God. Now we might say paradise, we would say the spirit world, weren't we? They're in the spirit world, they haven't, whether they're resurrected or not, we don't know, but at least in this vision, they're not. And, but they belonged to the seven churches. They were faithful individuals. And these are the rank and

file members of the kingdom of God who make the cogs and the wills of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-East ain't to go. When we get the directive from a living prophet, of later days, Saints go. When we get the directive from a living prophet, President Nelson, who asks us to let Israel prevail within us and gather people on both sides of the veil, that's a commission to us. It's an admonition. It's a commandment. And in order for that to happen, it is these rank and file members. These 24 people who have make it happen, who make the, and that's who we, who run, when we talk about our temples, think about every temple, and think about all the shifts that happen in any temple in a given day when our temples are up and going. Think about that.

So these 24 faithful members, these 24 faithful elders, and we'll learn that they're high priests here in a minute and these faithful people. But I think I love that because they passed on to the paradise of God and they will array the great resurrection if they come up with Christ or not, we'll see. But I love that verse, and it just says a lot to me. So do I, because if you go back in the context of who John is writing to, these are people that the receivers of this letter, they know these people.

I see, you know, presidents, whoever, from the Philadelphia branch, and he's with God. Right now, that's a message of hope to these seven churches, these seven congregations that he's writing to. I, you know, and maybe they were martyred, and they're saying he's with God now. I see him. I think that's a beautiful idea. Yeah, very well could have been martyrs in their day.

And John will, John in his book, will talk about the altars of the martyrs. And then the writers of DNC 135 talk about Joseph and Hiram as martyrs. And then the martyrs that are found that John the revelator, talks about. So very well, there could be martyrs amongst them who gave their life for the church in this difficult time under the Roman Empire.

Let's jump on to verse 6. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed on the back with seven seals? So he calls it a book. I've heard some people refer to it as a scroll, some scholars, but we can consider it as a book. And think of the book that the book is sealed on the back with seven seals. So this and the answer is so that he's asking this as a question, we were to understand that it contains the revealed will, the mysteries, and the works of God, the hidden things of his economy the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during its 7,000 years of its continuance of its temporal existence. Okay, so, wow, think about the expanse of what was just said there, the economic history of this earth. Okay? The mysteries of the works of God, when God is doing his

work unseen by man, that will be revealed or in this book, this great book that will be revealed, and there are seven seals to it, and each of these seven seals represent approximately a thousand years. And my good friend, Bart Kuala, who teaches geology at BYU, one of the questions he's always asked is the age of the earth. How does that square with the Bible? And you know, don't get sidetracked into all of that direction. But what we're talking about here and what John has seen in this great vision

is the biblical history of mankind that's revealed in this book and through these seven seals. I like that. I think when I teach my classes and God is introduced in Revelation chapter 4 and then he has this book. It's almost as if here's the father presenting his plan of salvation, right?

Here's his plan, and he needs someone to open the book. He needs someone to open the book and play the role of Redeemer. And there's this beautiful moment in John chapter 5, or sorry, Revelation 5, where John says, there's nobody. And he says, I wept much, there's this beautiful moment in John chapter 5, or sorry, Revelation 5, where John says, there's nobody. And he says, I wept much. There's nobody that great who can open the book or be the Savior. And then this great moment, one of the elders said, weep not. Behold the lion of the tribe of Judah. And John looks, and he doesn't see a lion, he sees a lamb and he comes up and he

takes the book. That's a beautiful way of presenting the plan of salvation and the Savior accepting his role as the Redeemer of the world. Yeah, the Jewish nation really, you know, you make me think of the Jews and they wanted a Savior that was going to save them from the Romans, etc. And that they wanted that lion, they wanted instead, the savior is depicted here as the lamb, the lamb of God, who, you know, the sacrificial lamb, the firstborn of the father, the first born of the father, the first born of the of a land. And so this is a beautiful symbolism.

And John is taking that from all that he knows about his culture and history of being of Judah. So I love what we're talking about here. And I really like, I'm glad you brought that up in the fifth chapter there. Because that's powerful when it comes to the book. Can we go back a little bit? I think maybe our listeners would appreciate. We are not saying in our theology that the earth is 7,000 years old. We are not. In the creation, they called, they, in one of the creation stories, they called it a day, You know, it doesn't mean it was a 24 hour period, but they called it a day.

They'll work that they did. And I appreciate that. And I thought maybe if you don't mind, there's a verse that when I have students that bring that up, I love to read in section 101, when in verse 32, it says, yay, very late I say in you. And that day when the Lord shall come,

he shall reveal all things. And then listen to verse 33, things which have passed. Now imagine what you can put under that heading, archeology, anthropology, astronomy, right? Hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made,

and the purpose, and the end thereof. And he's going to tell us everything. He hasn't told us that now. But one day he'll tell us all those stuff about the earth that we don't know. I don't know if that was a good addition to make right there. I just wanted people to know, no, we're not saying the earth is only 7,000 years old. I like that, John, because that's not the purpose of the Bible. It is not the purpose of Scripture.

They're not trying to tell us about the age of the earth. They're trying to teach us about God. So if we get lost in something that's not the purpose of, I think it was Elder Townidge who said, don't try to find things in the Bible that were never even meant to be there at all. Look at it the way it was meant to be read. It's a story about God,

not about geology. I just think this is a really important discussion. And I've been a gospel doctrine teacher before my word. And it's just really easy to get a side trip down this road. And the moment that that happens, I feel the spirit just walk out of the room. And it's like, what can I do to to regather the spirit here when I start, you know, the speculation that starts to happen when it comes to the seven seals. There's a great book written by Henry Eiring Senior called the, I think it's called the reflections of a scientist. He said he and Joseph Fielding Smith got in a heated discussion about the age of the earth.

And Joseph Fielding Smith said, Oh, Henry, I'll talk about this when you're less emotional, right? And then Henry Eiring Senior says, is he a prophet? Absolutely, he's a prophet. I believe he's a prophet, sir, and revelator. I just happened to disagree with him on the age of the earth. I mean, it was that it was such a healthy way of looking at this like, let's not get sidetracked on this issue. Let's stay with, you know, let's stay and keep our focus on the lamb, right?

Yeah. And the father. And that's why I like those verses in 101. It's kind of like, I'm going to tell you all of this in that day. But in the meantime, faith in Christ, repentance, during the end, you know, I'll tell you all that one day, but that's not the point. I think you're right, Craig. The moment we get there, I think the Holy Ghost says, that's not the point. That's not the point. I know our time, we probably can't cover all the verses that are here in section 77, but I know that there needs to be a few things set about the 144,000

and the small book and the two witnesses. So let's hit those three topics here. Let's go over to verse 11, the 11th question. What are we to understand by the ceiling of the 144,000 out of all the tribes of Israel, 12,000 out of every tribe. And by the way, and that last submission, the 12,000 out of every tribe, you know, you can, you know, everybody can do the math, 12 times 12, 144, 144, 12,000 out of each tribe. Now let's listen to the answer. We are to understand that those who are sealed and this means sealed up to eternal life, their names written in the the book of the Lamb God. That's what that would mean.

the Lamb God. That's what that would mean. Our high priests ordained into the holy order of God. Now let's just stop there a moment. Let's not leave the sisters out of this. If you're going to be sealed up and your name's in the book of the Lamb God and then that is a, your wife is going to be part of that ceiling. Okay. So you can't have that without her because this is a, we have a mother in heaven, we have a God in heaven. And if you're going to go on to exaltation, you're not going to do this alone. So while it just mentions high priests, right next to the high priest is the wife of the high priest. And if he's being sealed up, that means she's there too. And I we don't want to lose that. Craig, that's not something that Joseph Smith understands quite yet. That's not going to come and tell what section 137.

Right. Yeah. So he wouldn't have this is going to be something he'll understand later that in order to be one of these sealed up You must enter into Where the new and everlasting covenant of an air and covenant. Yeah Right, and so yeah that you can see how this The the the great revelation percolates with Joseph Smith for a good long time. And it, you find it coming out now in DNC 132 and 137 and other places.

And, and it's really important. So this is, that's why I really like these verses here. And it's a really important key to understanding. And one of the keys to understand revelations is, is know the doctrines of the plan of salvation. Know what that means. You tell me what is this talking about? Ordained unto the holy order of God. What's that?

Melchizedic priesthood. You got it. So there's section 84 of the doctrine and covenants, the holy order. and that's why they're high priests, and what is their administrative role to administer the everlasting gospel? For they are they who are ordained out of every nation, can red-tungen people by the angels to whom it is given power over the nations of the earth. That's the four angels that are on the four corners of the earth

who are assisting missionary labors from in our in our dispensation of the restoration to help us to get into countries to preach the gospel. Is that unseen, those unseen angels who are assisting and helping so that these high priests can come into a country and administer salvation to its inhabitants? That's what's going on here. Because it says every nation, kindred, tongue, and people by the angels to whom is given power over the all nations to bring as many as will come agencies involved to the church of the first born, it is those who have been sealed up to eternal life, those who have come to know, and that's the purpose of our endowment today. It is come to see God face to face, to see the second comforter who has Christ himself, and to seal us up into eternal life,

and that we can live in exaltation in a celestial orb, the priesthood is necessary, the restoration of priesthood for salvation and exaltation and ordinances and needs to, so that's when President Nelson says, we need to gather on both sides of the veil. This needs to be, you know, is that's why we're going into every nation that we can possibly go

through the front door. The brother and the corps and the 12th and the first presidency want us to go through the front door to do our missionary work and that we can bring and eventually the goal is to set up a temple in every land, every nation, to meet the needs of the people so that they have exaltation. So there's, it's a gathering of Israel type of a verse and it's a, find those who will let God prevail. It's a purpose of the priesthood type of verse. And I always love it when it says, every nation, Kendra, tongue and people,

the care that God has for everyone. As a teacher, I would focus less on the number. 144,000. Right. And more on the every tribe, that John is living in the day of the scattering and he's telling his people, I see every tribe in the future coming to God.

Right? This is Revelation 7. I see every tribe, Zebulon, Benjamin, Simians, and the Nazis. Junot, they're all there. Yeah, they're all there. So this has got to be to me, the future gatherer. I'm glad you said that, John,

that he's saying, what are we gonna understand by these 144,000, John's saying, it's the gathering, we're all back together. But that's got to be an exciting moment for John as the writer and those who are reading this letter, originally, that's got to be exciting for them as well, a future gathering. We know Nephi was excited about the future gathering. Isaiah was excited about the future gathering. This seems to be an addition there. Yeah, and your point about not getting caught up in the number of 144,000. I know that there's a Christian

denomination out there that says there'll only be 144,000 saved in the kingdom of God. That's just not the plan of salvation, is it? God loves all of his children. Everybody will have agency to have an opportunity to be exalted and to accept their reject the gospel. And it's not a limited capacity. So, and so that's what I love this, and the priesthood is essential in the process. There is a pathway back to God, and so I love this. When we think of the seal, it's interesting that the different ways this is being used. The book of Mormon being a sealed portion,

it's not this kind of a seal. Are we thinking like a wax seal that holds the revelation closed? And then also that people are sealed. Yeah, we have sealed the servants of God in our foreheads in verse 9. But I just, I like that how often that word is used. And the plates that were sealed were closed, but when we're sealed, that's a different type of being sealed. And then there's the seals at SeaWorld, and that's a different type of seals. But you bring up a good point. Again, it's the same thing with this topic right

here. The ceiling of the three numbers on the forehead in the book of revelations there that you're referring to. We have no, there's lots of speculation out there on that and the same thing happens in a gospel doctrine class. As soon as we get speculating what that means and how those numbers can be interpreted, really have to be careful there.

But in this case, the word is sealed up to eternal life. Correct. In my class, I've said, listen, in John's day, human beings could be sealed on their forehead like branded. Who owns you? And the book of Revelation seems to have two owners. You can either choose the adversary as your owner, the mark of the beast, right? The adversary is your owner, or you can choose the father as your owner. Those are your two choices, very similar to Nephi,

saying, they're saved two churches only. There's Satan in his side and there's God in his side, and you got to make a decision on whose side you're on. But you're right, getting caught up in what the seal says and what the number means is again, I think you're out in left field and you're far away from where the Lord wants us to be here focusing on him, the lamb and the gathering of Israel. the Lamb and the gathering of Israel. Let's go to the last two questions in the Revelation. We're in verse 14 right now. What are we to understand by the little book which was eaten by John,

as mentioned in the 10th chapter of Revelation? Answer, we're to understand that it was a mission and ordinance for him to gather the tribes of Israel, behold, this is Elias, who, as it is written, must come and restore all things. So Joseph Smith, Bruce Armerconquies talked about this, that the book, the little book, was what was it? It was what? It was... It was a... Yeah, and it's an assignment, right? Okay, okay. So the first deal with the fact that it was eaten. So a book that was eaten, you know, you know, give a book to somebody and tell them to eat this book. I think you're crazy. But what is this symbolic in here?

Think of the word, think of the words in the scriptures that equate to what he's being said here. Feast upon what? The little book. Feast upon the word of God. Now what is the little book? The little book is the real history of the world. Now we hear the word today thrown around fake history or fake. Fake news. You know this. That there is a book

that has the real history of what happened in these seven seals. And we're required to feast upon that book. What we're required to do, then the book is the history of mankind, both our religious history and our secular history. If you want to know religious history, you've got to know something about European history or Middle East history. If you want to understand what's going on religiously in the Bible, culture, history, if you'll study that, and we need to feast upon it, and if we'll do that, we'll understand the great gathering of the tribes in the latter days and how that will will all come together, and that all things will be restored. So it's just like the more you know before you go, the more you'll share while you're there, the more you know about our history. Let's say Middle Eastern history. If you go to Jerusalem,

and you have never studied Middle Eastern history, of the number of times the city of Jerusalem has been conquered and by who? If you don't have a grasp of that, then you're a blank slate just trying to understand this culture that you see in front of you. But if you do understand the history, it's magnificent in the tapestry of what's going on in the city of Jerusalem in modern day today. And when it comes to understanding our history, we'll understand that the concept of an Elias of a restore of truth has been going on in our history, whether it was the dark ages or through the great apostasy and the enlightenment area that brought about the great revivals of the restoration and that there have been aliases out there. I would see Martin Luther and the great reformer as an aliase, a mortal aliase, who is trying to bring about. And if we

understand and study the life of these great reformers and that helps us to understand why the need for a restoration because there was a great apostasy, if we don't understand there's an apostasy, there is no need for a restoration. And there's no need for a book Mormon and there's no need for a priesthood of Peter, James and John and, and John the Baptist, and Moses, and Lyos, and Elijah, appearing in DNC went to, we don't understand our history of who we are as Latter-day Saints. How can we understand the gathering? How can we do what President Nielsen's ask us? How can we allow God to prevail in our life if we don't understand our history. And so that's what he's saying.

We all need to eat the book. Feast upon the Word. This is one of those moments, by the way, where I tell my students, this would not be odd for John's audience. Him eating a little book. He's borrowing this idea from Ezekiel chapter three where the prophet eats a book, and then he

can speak the words. So I think you're right on here. Anybody who wants to serve a mission or go out and teach, they must first, what did the Lord tell the higher and Smith? You must first, before you can declare my word, you have to obtain my word. You got to feast upon the word before you can speak. Treasure it up, another phrase. And I think like section 88 coming up talks exactly what Craig is saying right now. Study the wars, the perplexities of nations. It's kind of like get a big picture and you will see the restoration in the big picture. And I love what you said there, Craig, because I love to tell my students, in the big picture and I love what you said there. Correct.

Because I love to tell my students, you know, the president Benson thing, if you don't understand the fall, then you won't understand the atonement. If you don't understand the apostasy, you won't understand why there needs to be a restoration at all. And all of this says the big picture. I like the image of eating the book. I'm going to consume this.

I am going to learn everything about this. I'm going to consume this. I am going to learn everything about this. I'm going to make it part of me. Our last verse here is, uh, in verse 15, what is to be understood by the two witnesses in the 11th chapter of the book of Revelations? Oh, here's the gospel doctrine class is going to take off now. Right? Here we go. Left field. class is going to take off now. Right? Here we go. Left field. They are two prophets that are to be raised up in the Jewish

nation. OK, so that's Israel. If there's a Jewish nation, it's Israel today. It's in 1917 when it was declared that they could form a government and an army and prepare for their own nation to emerge. I mean that's what we're talking there are two prophets that are raised up in the Jewish nation. So we'll say Israel. We won't, well, the find out is Israel today. The borders of the country of Israel in the last days,

because it is the last days. It's the sixth and seventh seal that we're talking about here. At the time of the restoration and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered. And so there is a physical literal gathering of the Jews in Israel today. Nobody can refute that. Spirituality, they haven't gathered to the gospel, but they're there physically in culture. They're there with all the religion. They are there.

They have a government. And they are there for a purpose in their mind, and they're looking for the first coming of the Savior. But these two prophets, it doesn't say they're Jewish prophets, it doesn't say they're coming out of Judah, but they're two prophets that will be raised up. That word raised up is interesting if you consider that for a moment. And then the last part of it to prophesied of the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem in the land of their fathers.

Now, of course, let's talk about the context of the 11th chapter of this book of Revelation. What is going on here? What do we know about this? This is the great Battle of Armageddon. This is the time, this is a three and a half year war that will be going on. This is a war that will take seven years to bury the dead. And there will be these two prophets or witnesses that are there to associate with this great battle of Armageddon. And eventually, and I'm now going into the revelations and that we have in teachings, that they will be backed up to the Mount of Olives.

And so this is a great time. We also know from the revelation itself there in this leaven chapter that these two prophets, their lives will be taken. And for three and a half days, their bodies will lie within the streets and then at the great coming when the Mount of Olive splits in twain. and the Savior comes through to fight the battle for the Jews, and to save that nation from annihilation, and then the two prophets, these two witnesses will be raised up. A resurrected would be the word. So this is this is this in we ask, what are the who are these two witnesses, and who are

they? Well, we don't know. That's where speculation starts. Unfortunately, has taken over some study groups in the church. And are they, do they come from the core of the 12th or the first presidency? You know, no, we have no direction on that. I wouldn't, I wouldn't dare to say anything not even close to put the brother in that kind of situation with this prophecy right here. So, yeah. This is another place where John is borrowing from the Old Testament from Zechariah 4, these two anointed ones.

So you go back to our original discussion between symbolic and literal, and if we lean way too far literal, that's where I think we start to kind of go off the rails and start saying, yeah, I think it's gonna be these two people, right, and I don't think that was the intention. It looks to me like the intention here is that it will, when they die, it will seem like we've lost, but here comes the Savior to raise them back up and he will win. So it seems to me that

the purpose of Revelation 11 is to show the power of the Lamb to bring people to life, right? Right at the end of the book or right at the end of the chapter, the angel says, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and his Christ and shall reign forever and ever. To me, that's the point. That's a good way to, I think we ought to have the whole section here. What is a great way to look at that? And that is Hank. And that music came to my mind because those are the lyrics of the Hallelujah chorus. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our God and of this Christ. He shall reign

forever and ever and we sing. And that's a great way to instead of getting too concerned about the little symbols, what's happening here? The history of the world has already been written, and the Christ is the victor, and he will save and gather. What else would you add to that? I would like to say that as we look at the whole of the sum of the book of this great revelation, the John C's, I think that it behooves us as Latter-day Saints to do all that we can to become familiar with these teachings. But what's important for us as a Latter-day Saint today is to be true to our covenants, be active in the kingdom of God, be moving forward in a progressive way to do all that we can to bring about these

events in the latter days. They're going to happen with or without us. We want them to happen with us. We want to be contributors. We need to follow the direction of our Prophet, Sir, and Revolator. We never want to be ahead of the prophet. We want to listen to him what he's going to ask us to do. And he's asked us some very important things to do recently in the church. And that's what we need to do. That should be our watch.

Yeah. I don't think one of those things is speculating about the book of Revelation in Gospel doctrine. I don't think he's asked us to do that. Have we? Yes, we need to be careful there. I was wondering too, if a church history question, were the missionaries out teaching the book of Revelation or were they teaching more about the restoration and the prophet Joseph Smith? Yeah. I think that's a great question. I think we are missionaries.

We're very Bible driven as much as anything. Most of them didn't have the revelations available to them. Some of them copied them down and were carrying with them until they did get the book, you know, the 1835 edition of the doctrine, Covenants. But most of them are the biblical sense. And, you know, we didn't have enough knowledge that this is 1832. And we didn't have enough knowledge going around about these kind of things yet for missionaries to be taking. It is faith repentance, the doctrine of Christ is what's bringing them into the church, the Book of Mormon. It is a biblical

presentation, along with that there's been an apostasy and a restoration. Here's a Book of Mormon now that the fruits of this, and then there's a church that's organized that has authority and power and ordinances to bring us back to God. So again, these are keys to buy, these are 15 keys to help us understand the book of revelations when you study it as a member of the church. I love what the come follow me manual only has really one comment on section 77 it just says ponder how there's a paragraph but after that it says ponder how you can follow the prophet Joseph's example when you study the scriptures you might ask Heavenly Father what am I to understand and I love because that phrase is over and over in here what are we to understand about this well we can go to our Heavenly Father and say, what am I to understand as we as we study our scriptures? And I think that's the application part that you're bringing in

here now. And for us as Latter-day Saints, where do we need to be? And how can we be better saints in the kingdom of God? How can the book of revelations help us to do that? And I think it can be a godsend to every member of the church if they'll spend the time to get to know John the Revelator in his great revelation. Please join us for part two of this podcast. you