Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Doctrine & Covenants 85-87 Part 1 : Dr. Ken Alford

Episode Date: July 31, 2021

Will members receive revelation for those outside of their stewardship? Who is the one “Great and Mighty” mentioned in this week’s lesson? Join Dr. Kenneth Alford as he shares what it means to ���steady the ark,” as well as teaching how the early Saints learned about personal revelations, corporeal revelation, and the “unspeakable gift’ of the Holy Ghost. The Saints are living through persecution and hear the rumors of war. This week’s lesson applies to each member as we live in a time of tribulations and learn to listen to the voice of the Lord.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith and I'm John by the way. We love to learn, we love to laugh, we want to learn and laugh with you. As together we follow him. Hello my friends, welcome to follow him. I am your host, Hank Smith. I am here with my illustrious co-host, John, by the way. Hello, John. Welcome. Hey, he has a different adjective for me each time. I gave Hank a thessaurus once, and not only was it terrible, it was terrible. Yes, I had to go get a new one. Hey, we want to remind everybody to come find us on Facebook

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So, John, another week and another expert in church history. So, tell us who we have here. It's great. I'm so delighted to be here. This thing has changed my doctrine and covenants. I thought I'd read it before, but it's just a blessing for us to be here and to have Dr. Kenneth L. Alfred here. Let me read what I've got here after serving almost 30 years on active duty in the United States Army. Brother Alfred retired as a colonel in 2008, while on active military duty, Ken served in numerous

assignments, including the Pentagon, eight years teaching computer science and information systems engineering at the US Military Academy at West Point and four years as a professor of behavioral science and department chair at the National Defense University in Washington, D.C. After serving in the England Bristol mission with my sister-in-law, he earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in Political Science from Brighamming University and Master of Arts in International Relations from the University of Southern California and Master of Computer Science from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and a PhD in computer science from George Mason University.

He has published and presented on a wide variety of subjects during his career and Kennen and his wife Sherrily have four children and 18 grandchildren and we're so happy to welcome you today. Thanks for being with us today. Thanks. I should probably clarify that your sister-in-law and I were in the same mission, but were not companions. That was... Yeah, that sounded kind of funny. She just wanted to be really clear on that. And Linda was not my sister-in-law at the time either.

That happened like she came home, married my brother. So we found out we had that connection, which is great. So now, is this accurate for children, 18 grandchildren, that number seems to change with almost everybody we bring on. That's the accurate number. You can kind of see the group behind me. I've got a family photo there. There they are. Family reunion and heading for another family reunion this summer. John, I've known Ken for a while. It's been 10 years now ever since I came on to campus at

BYU. And he has been honestly always so kind to newcomers. I don't know why that is, Ken. Maybe it's just a natural thing or maybe someone did it to you a long time ago, but you were, well, I stepped foot on campus and you came over to say hi and meet me and find out who I was. And then we found out that we had, you know know mutual family with my sister in law Lisa I think is your cousin and we just connected there. Is that just something you've always done? When you're in the army you're always the new guy. My wife and I moved our family I don't know 15 or more times in a 30 year career. And so you're always showing up as the new guy. Our BYU faculty is actually the fifth faculty that I've been a part of.

So even academically, you're always always the new guy. So I kind of have an empathy, I think, for being the new guy because I've been the new guy so many times. Nice. Yeah, you I remember remember first day, I was like, oh, I have a friend, I have a friend. It makes a difference. You feel like us as adults, we don't worry about that sort of thing, but no, it's, we do, and it feels good. So before I let this happen,

I just wanna make our listeners aware that Ken is not only a church history and doctrine expert. He's also a war history expert and we have a war history lover in our co-host John by the way. So they may go off on some tangents at times talking about World War II John. We haven't talked about your dad very much. Where did he, where did he serve? My dad enlisted in the Navy two days before his 18th birthday in 1944. He went to camp Farragut in Idaho to learn how to march in straight lines, other important stuff. And then he got on a train to San Francisco, a bus to San Francisco Bay and boarded the USS Saratoga, CV3, the largest carrier in the fleet at the time.

And saw action at Evo Gima. Their ship was attacked by Kamikaze's. He stated his post. He was on a quad-40 anti-aircraft gun. And 123 killed, 196 wounded that day, February 23rd, 1945. Was not a member of the church, but had some buddies that dragged him off his bunk and said, you're coming to church with us, and when he got home, he thought, I should date some, some, as he put it, some LDS girls. And one of those ended up being my mom.

So, it's a really interesting story how even in those kinds of times the Lord can intervene and make wonderful things happen even in difficult, very difficult times. So I could, I could go on all day but that's the one paragraph, not shall. So World War II from 44 to 46 in the Pacific on the Saratoga. Well, I wanted to ask maybe brother Alfred about his,

was the military something you always wanted to do? Was it something that helped you get to college? How did that all come about? My father was a reserve officer. So when I was born when just before dad graduated from BYU and then when I was just a couple of weeks old we moved to Harlan, Texas. He went to Navigator School training down there. I learned to walk while he was at Nav School training and then we got stationed in Alaska when I was little. It was a territory then. So I'll betray my age. My sister's

birth certificate says territory of Alaska. And then we, that's when he was on active duty, dad used to fly with a B50 along the bearing straight, taking in air samples from the Soviet Union proving that they were doing nuclear tests. And then we moved back, we moved, dad got out of the service, went into the reserves, we moved to Ogden, but my whole growing up, Dad was in the reserve, so he would disappear summers and Christmases going over to Vietnam and various places. And so, military was just kind of a thing, and then I went to high school at Benlomund High School in Ogden, Utah, and Ogden, Utah was one of two cities in the entire nation.

The other was Walla Walla Washington. If you went to high school at Walla Walla Washington or Ogden, Utah, you took ROTC as a sophomore. It wasn't optional. If you were a male, you took ROTC. I took ROTC and I liked it and had basic military familiarization from my dad. So I continued through high school ROTC. It was a battalion commander there.

And then applied for a scholarship for ROTC at college. And got the scholarship, went to BYU on Army ROTC scholarship. And then graduated into the Army and the Army just every single time we asked for something the Army just said okay it was just it was just amazing and so the Army let you do anything you could do in the civilian world you can do in the Army and so I wanted to be a professor and they let me be a professor a couple of times and and

sent me to school and did all kinds of things and I turned around and 30 years almost had passed and then we then we got out the army was very good to my family The saying within the army is the Lord knows where he wants your family to be and then He whispers to the army to send you there wants your family to be. And then he whispers to the army to send you there. And that seemed to be the case with our family as we moved just all over the place. And it was a great experience. Although if you ask our children where they're from, they kind of just look at you. Not quite sure how to answer that. Although most of them, I think, would say, say probably Virginia, because we had three tours in Virginia.

All right, well, let's jump into our lesson this week, Ken. We're studying sections 85, 86, and 87, which seem to me, because of your help, which seem to me to be kind of stand-alone sections. They don't really run together, like some of the others we've seen right in a row. Let's back up as far as you want and tell our listeners what they probably should know before heading into section 85. Well, sure, section 85, you have to remember at this time that,

boy, poor Joseph Smith, he's trying to run the church with two church centers, if you like, for lack of a better description. And the internet is still down in 1831-32. It's going to be down for another 150 years. And so it's really tough. I mean, just try, can you imagine trying to communicate and organize and on top of this, you're trying to organize and run the law of consecration

in the land of Zion, in Missouri. And so he's deputized basically some folks and given them authority, David Whitmer and others who's the president of the church in Missouri. And he's, Joseph has traveled out to Missouri. They're trying to build the church in Ohio. They're trying to build the church in Missouri, and they're having challenges in both places to be quite frank.

Boy, it's got to be frustrating to be Joseph because he's only got You know at this stage in church history. He's got two bishops, but fortunately he has two bishops now he started with none and In Missouri what's happened is they have when Joseph went out they take W. W. Phelps, William Wein Phelps. And just a little bit about W. W. Phelps. He's one of those guys, you hear his name a lot.

He's from New Jersey. He actually wanted to run for Lieutenant Governor of New York at one point. It's kind of fun, his connection to the church. He buys a book of Mormon. Talk about interesting timing. He buys a book of Mormon, talk about interesting timing, he buys his copy of the book of Mormon on the 9th of April as I recall, like three days after the church is organized. So the church is three days old, he buys a copy of the book of Mormon, he's reading it, he doesn't meet Joseph, though, as I recall, until oh goodness, it's almost

Christmas in 1830, and then he waits six more months before he's baptized. And he's baptized as I recall in June of 1831. And then he is called to go out to Missouri. And he goes out to Missouri to make a long story short. They buy a press and it's set up in Independence. And then Joseph is told by the Lord to send Oliver Cowdry and John Whitmer with the copy of what's called the Book of Commandments and Revelations. And this is a record kind of a master copy of the

Revelations Joseph has been receiving. They take that out to Missouri and double the W.W. Phelps very painstakingly begins setting that type in a little teeny book. It's only about this big. And it's called the Book of Commandments because if we go clear back to section one at the beginning of the Come Follow Me year, the Lord in those initial verses says, this is my preface and he names it the book of commandments. So, W. W. Phelps is working on that, and he's publishing that. And so, he's out there in Missouri. Joseph is back in Curtlyn.

Now, Section 85 is written down. It's actually a letter. It's an excerpt of a letter from Joseph Smith to W. W. Phelps. Now, we're presuming that W. W. Phelps must have written a letter first. And what's happened is right before this, this is the end of November 1832. And Joseph has just come back from a mission up into Southern Canada and up into upstate New York. And while he's gone, his mail is stacking up. you know that that happens when you don't have email and And so he's waiting through all of his mail and he must have come across a letter from WW Phelps now

That letter's been long lost Hopefully they'll find it someday, but currently that letter is lost We can presume what the letter says based on Joseph's response. He writes back to W.W. Phelps and gives him some counsel and advice on church members in Missouri and also how the law of consecration is to be run and what records are to be kept and those kinds of things. In this letter, Joseph says this, he says, while I dictate this letter, I fancy to myself that you are saying or thinking something similar to these words. So he puts a question into W. W. Phelps mouth and it says, what shall become of those who are saying

to come up on design? So those people that are coming to Missouri in order to keep the commandments of God and yet receive not their inheritance by consecration, by order of deed from the bishop, agreeably to the law. And then he says, so I've assumed you've asked that question. WW, and now I will proceed to answer your question. And so the letter, and by the way, you can find the text of the entire letter,

if any listeners are interested, just go find the text of the entire letter, if any listeners are interested, just go to the Joseph Smith Papers website. It's josesmithpapers.org, and you can actually find under the revelations the full text, the original letter of Joseph. And you can see the parts that were cut out that actually become section 85. And so in there then, Joseph, there's a fun reference in verse 6 where Joseph talks about, he says, yea, thus say it, the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceeth all things. I just think that's a great description. Just a fun description of the Holy Ghost, because when

the Holy Ghost speaks to you, it just kind of pierces you. You know, it's still and it's small, but the Holy Ghost has this great ability to just get your attention. And then Joseph goes on and says in the letters, and oftentimes it makes my bones to quake while it makes it manifest. So that when I feel the spirit it just kind of

just kind of makes me shake all over it's just you know so exciting that it's happening. And at this time the law of consecration in Missouri is being organized if you like by the first bishop in the church that's Edward Partridge who was a hatter by the way, and he made hats for a living prior to becoming a bishop. And so he's out there, and Edward Partridge, for a while, he's the only bishop in the church, and now he's been charged with running the law of consecration. If you go back and remember section 51 he gets instructions from the Lord on how to do that and there's various sections that you've talked about in previous episodes that talk about the law of consecration and things. But

Edward Partridge, this is a good man. He, you know, the Lord says, this is a man in whom there is no guile. He just has, he just doesn't have a deceitful bone in his body. And the Lord compares him to Nathaniel, you know, one of his ancient apostles. And so, but Edward Partridge isn't perfect. He's like the rest of us. And Edward Partridge, quite frankly, comes in and out of favor, if you like, with Joseph. Depending because the Lord says earlier, I'm going to paraphrase here, but basically the Lord says, when it comes to the law of consecration, it's my way or the highway. You have to do it my way,

or the law just won't work. And as they're trying to work through some of the problems in Missouri, Edward Partridge is maybe being just a little creative and trying to figure some of the problems in Missouri, Edward Partridge is maybe being just a little creative and trying to figure some of these things out. And plus they have people that won't join the law. And there's just lots of challenges. They're receiving persecution. But at this time, in November of 1832, Joseph considers from what he knows that Edward Partridge needs to probably tow the line a little bit more

when it comes to the law of consecration. And so, and he does, by the way, there's several things in later revelations and also other writings of Joseph where Edward Partridge just, he's just such a great guy. But he needs a little course correction right here. And so Joseph offers that course correction in this letter that is excerpt in section 85. And what he says is, is in verse 7, the letter says, and it shall come to pass that, I the Lord God will send one mighty and strong.

And basically what he's telling Bishop Partridge is, Bishop, I've called you to do this, you need to do it, you need to rely on the spirit, but you need to follow the guidelines and exercise and execute the law of consecration as it's been laid out. If you don't do that, I will send someone mighty and strong who will help you out. Then he goes on and says, while that man who was called of God and appointed, so Bishop Partridge, that put a forth his hand to steady the Ark of God. And that, of course, is a reference to poor Uza back in 1 Chronicles chapter 13 verses 9 and 10. This is a guy that's following the Ark of the Covenant as Israel's on the move.

And the Ark, you know, it's on a wagon that's apparently a little bit rickety and I don't know, they hit a bump or something happens in the arc shifts and so Uza puts out his hand to steady the arc and keep it on the wagon. Well, that's verboten. You're not allowed to touch the arc unless you're, unless you're, you know, the proper cast of Levites and in the in the right order and all those other rules that are found in the Old Testament. But Uza takes it upon himself. And basically what Uza says is God isn't capable of protecting the Ark of the Covenant. I'm going to have to do it for him. And so I'm going to override the rule and I'm going to put my hand out and steady the Ark. Uza touches the Ark and

he's killed and so you don't steady the ark you know and that's kind of a we've got that metaphor in the church of not steadying the ark. I was going to say Ken it's that's become kind of a I've heard it at least in my in my church experience don't study the arc. And that's where it comes from is from that first Chronicles story. In fact, David Oma came me this statement. I like this. He said, it's a little dangerous for us to go out of our own sphere and try to unauthoritatively. And that's the key to unauthoritatively and that's the key to unauthoritatively direct the efforts of a brother or I would add a sister See how quickly those who attempt unauthoritatively to steady the arc die spiritually now

When I was growing up I think each generation, you know Has kind they play favorites just maybe a little bit. And one of our favorites was Neal A Maxwell. And Elder Maxwell said it this way, he just said, quote, prophets need tutoring as we all do. Okay. But then I love this line. He says, however, this is something the Lord seems perfectly quite able to manage without requiring a host of helpers. And isn't that a great line? You know, none of us are perfect, not even the profits and apostles, but it's not our position to steady the arc. And so this, the statement in that section, today we look at it, we go, okay, Bishop

Partridge got that council. He repented of whatever he was not quite doing right and absolutely did a great job. But I've got to tell you, in the first 75 years of the Church's history, and especially around the period of the Manifesto, into the period of Utah's early statehood. That phrase from verse 7, one mighty and strong, really became kind of a touchstone as different groups left the church for various reasons. Often it was because of plural marriage. When the keys to plural marriage were turned off, of plural marriage, when the keys to plural marriage were turned off, there were some groups that didn't agree with that, and they left the church, and some of them used that phrase one mighty and strong to say that that was their leader of their break-off group. And so much so, interestingly, this isn't known much today, but in the Deseret news, which is owned by the church,

in the 11th November issue in 1905. So the church is just 75 years old. But in November of 1905, the first presidency published a very long for a newspaper, a very long explanation about that phrase, one mighty and strong. And they felt so strongly about it that they republished it almost two years later in the October issue of the improvement era in 1907. And here's what the first presidency had to say about that phrase, one mighty and strong. Quote, perhaps no other passage in the revelations of the Lord in this dispensation has given rise to so much speculation as this one. Well, wow.

I mean, in the 115 years that have passed since then, I've never heard it. I'll calm down a little bit, but that phrase, one mighty and strong, was a major concern and cause of speculation because people were saying, well, who is that? And then various groups were saying, well, it's our guy. But in that publication that the church put out, they very painstakingly, and again, it's available, you can find it on the internet if you're looking for it, but very painstakingly, they just lay out and say, this is talking about Bishop Partridge, he repented, one mighty

and strong isn't needed. The Lord didn't have to execute that second part of that clause. But I just find it interesting that twice, this was of such a concern at the time, as they're trying to turn that key off for plural marriage with the manifesto and then what some call the second manifesto, just after the turn of the century that it's a cause of concern. And just kind of an interesting note from Section 85 to something that we don't, as we read it today, we don't have that same visceral reaction to that phrase in verse seven. Yeah, I would, that's not one I would have said, oh, I remember that phrase coming up in 1905.

I love you don't remember that phrase. Yeah. I don't want, we don't want to offend any of our listeners, but we do want to help people understand what steady the arc might look like in 2021, where we go to, sometimes we want to go off for the Bishop, our unsolicited council. Is that, or I've had a dream. Yeah, yeah. The Lord told me to tell you, you know, this, and I remember responding, if the Lord can't get through to me, he usually tells my wife.

I have learned great respect for the keys. And as, as a bishop, I had a, a former area authority teaching gospel doctrine in our ward. And whenever I happened to have the chance to go to gospel doctrine, he was so respectful of the keys. He always asked me, Bishop, I want you to have the last word today in gospel doctrine. And I also have learned when I'm going to do a fireside I find the person with the keys and I say this is exactly what I'm planning to talk about Is that okay? And if you like to make any closing comments of course, you know, I'd welcome because I I understand that idea and I've learned that maybe things don't I've learned that maybe things don't happen the way we think, but I have respect for the keys, and I think I showed that when I was given a chance to give them my sustaining vote.

So I always try to be careful of that. I don't know. That's my two cents. I like it. Yeah. Pre-stead keys are so important. And if you look at it, there's very few actual key holders in the church.

It's a very small number of key holders. And I teach religion to 25 at Brigham Young University. It's foundations of the restoration. And in one of our early lessons, we share some basic principles with the students regarding revelation and just how the process works. Because, you know, the Lord is so organized and so orderly and things function so well if you do it according to, as section 52 talks about his pattern. But one of the principles we teach them is what we call the law of stewardship or the principle of stewardship.

And basically, it's that we can each receive an individual revelation and absolutely should as President Nelson continually challenges us to do and to prepare and to recognize how we hear him. But at the same time, that revelation that we receive has boundaries. And our stewardship, if we are receiving revelation for those who are outside of our stewardship, especially those who hold priesthood keys, then you can take it to the bank that that revelation probably isn't coming from the source where you hope it is coming from. It's kind of like what happened in the early days of the church. I know you discussed this in an earlier episode about Hiram Page and his seer stone.

Because Hiram Page, I think, was trying to do the right thing. He'd been told, we can all receive revelation. The heavens are open. And so he goes out, takes his seer stone, which is a common thing to have at the time, and asks for revelation, and he receives it. He just unfortunately receives it from the wrong source, because it's early, and they're still learning as well. But I don't see that, you know, Hiram Page was trying to mislead the church. He was just misled and deceived himself, but if you'd understood that stewardship principle, and if you look in the early sections,

especially of the doctrine and covenants, boy, it's over and over and over. In section one, it's just multiple times. And section 21, right while the church is being organized. And basically, just a paraphrase, it says, Joseph is the guy. That's rule one, and rule two is see rule one. Joseph is the guy.

And so as long as we keep that in mind, and today, it's president Russell M. Nelson. And if we keep that in mind, we'll recognize that, you know, the Lord is never gonna tell brother Alford what president Nelson needs to tell the church. That's just not gonna happen. It's just not gonna happen. I remember I had, I taught early morning seminary

for several years in several states as we moved around And one of my classes in Virginia one of my one of my really really great seminary students came up to me After class he hung around and he was gonna about to miss the bus to go to high school But he said brother Alfred. I need to tell you how do I get in touch with the prophet? It was President Hinckley at the time. He said how do I get in touch with the prophet? It was President Hinckley at the time. He said, how do I get in touch with the prophet? Because I have a message from God for him. I received it last night in while I was dreaming. And I know it's a message, I need to tell him that he needs to

change something. And so I didn't call it the principal of stewardship at the time, but I sat down and kind of explained how things worked and that actually, no, that's not the way it works. The other thing I tell my students is if you find yourself on the steps of the church office building with people with protest placards and they're shouting down the profits in Cormor the Twelve, you're in the wrong crowd, you need to leave. And you know, it's just the way this works, stewardship and revelation and keys, it's such a wonderful thing, but it can absolutely be misused or abused if we don't understand

the Lord's process. And he's organized it for that specific reason. So we can know where this comes from. And I've seen it happen for me, can, I don't know if you've seen this, but I've seen it happen where men who hold the priesthood think that somehow because they hold the priesthood, they can direct the women of the church

in no matter what position they're in. And that again is a matter of priesthood keys. You may hold the priesthood, but that doesn't give you any stewardship stewardship at all over the the young women's president or the relief society president. You holding the priesthood, you're not the key holder. The bishop is. Section 121 defines that. It's two words on righteous dominion. Yeah. I'm glad. I'm glad. I'm glad. Stead the arc. What an that's such an interesting phrase. That, but you know, interestingly, if you look at, if you look at the Old Testament,

does anybody else ever touch the arc recorded in the scripture? Not the, yeah, no, no, who's it? Who's it? Who's it becomes the, you know, the, the, the role model on what to do? But I think the message gets out, at least on that point, Israel has other problems as we still do today. But touching the art doesn't ever seem to be a problem again. The Lord said X, who's it did Y? And he paid the consequence.

So yeah, it's a great concept. Stating in the art, we just need to make sure we're supportive of church leaders and not trying to supplant them. What do you call that, John, a sermon in a sentence? Is that what you've called it before? Yeah, I've noticed when I mark my scriptures, I usually mark phrases, not entire verses,

and sometimes you'll see a sermon in a sentence and that's that's one That's one of those I'm gonna look up a quote real quick Do you guys remember who is from somebody in conference? I think it was Elder Anderson said don't be more interested in changing the church than changing yourself Well, it reminds me while you're looking that up of Alma to Coriantan, you know, you worried about this, you marvel about this, you think this is unjust. And then at the end of his four chapters, he says, let not these things trouble you, only let your sins trouble you. You're worried

about the wrong things on. Sometimes when I've read that steady, the arc, I've thought, you know, just between us, gosh, that seems kind of harsh. He was just trying to help. But I guess that that was the commandment not to do that was well known, right? It was a head to know that they, the way they did rules back then and teaching back then. I mean, things were pretty clear, pretty clear cut with the love Moses.

And so it was a must have known what he was doing, or I don't think the Lord would have exited that penalty? Well, you know, revelations an interesting thing. It's a bit of a balancing act, isn't it? Yeah. You don't want revelation, you don't want to let it swing too far to the left or too far to the right.

President Oaks tells a wonderful story. I may get some of the details wrong, but as I recall the story, a young lady comes up to him and is just so excited. And she says, I'm dating or I've married this most wonderful person. And he's so spiritual. He prays about when we go to the supermarket, he even prays about what kind of beans we should buy. And President Hoax said, oh, sister, basically the Lord doesn't care what kind of beans

you eat. You know, Delmani and Green Giant are both okay. And there's a line of things you pray over. I remember having one missionary acquaintance in my mission field that prayed over what Thai he should wear every day. And quite frankly, it's elder, you got a blue one and a black one and they're both going to be okay. At the same time, sometimes I think we don't bring the Lord in on decisions that, oh, I

think he's just waiting to help us out. And we have to, I think sometimes initiate that conversation by asking. I've had students tell me that, you know, they didn't feel the need to pray about who they were marrying. And in my mind, if that's not when you pray over, I don't know what rises to the level of requiring assistance from the Holy Ghost. So, and each person's different, you know, and I think about the things I prayed over when I was five and six, and the things I pray over now, and I be real honest with you,

they're very different lists. And so I think as we go through life, that that list changes and Heavenly Father understands that. And as we mature in the gospel, our prayers change, but just a couple of, I guess, concluding thoughts on that is first, how wonderful that it's available. Oh my gosh, how wonderful that it's available.

The gift of the Holy Ghost, you know, the Lord calls it an unspeakable gift. And that's just the best definition, I think. It's just how the Holy Ghost can best help us. And when we trouble him and when we don't, and there is some things that definitely know, and some things definitely yes, and some things that are in the gray area. And if you're concerned about it, my advice is pray and ask the Lord, you know, for assistance on what's concerning you, because the Lord has our best interest always at heart. And he knows what our needs are as it says, you know, before we even ask in the scriptures. And so it's, the revelation is just an interesting thing. It's easy to

go off the rails over revelation questions. And so again, I think the Holy Ghost is the one that keeps us on the rails in this and just absolutely everything else. Yeah. I think Joseph Smith, in my mind, is the, just a prime example of a key holder in that he would tell people what the revelation he was receiving by priesthood keys, but he always directed people. Go to the Lord. Ask him yourself if this is correct, if this is right. Have your own experience. So as a priesthood, if I'm a priesthood holder that holds the keys to stewardship, the keys of the priesthood, I should have no fear of people going to the Lord themselves

and getting a second witness of what I'm directing them to do. There shouldn't be any fear there, or even being offended that someone wants to go to the Lord for themselves, because I already told them what to do. I love what you said. There's a delicate balance there. And well, I think was that the same talk Elder Oak said, you have two lines of revelation. You have your personal line to the Lord. And you have your priesthood line to the Lord. And they, they, you have access to both. So Edward Partridge was faithful to the end after this. And does that idea negate the idea of one mighty and strong coming along making this prophecy kind of a conditional thing if Edward Partridge didn't do what he was supposed to?

Well, that first presidency publication twice from 1905 and 1907 addresses Edward Partridge in detail. It addresses his situation. And the first presidency said this, they said, the man who was called an appointed of God to divide into the saints, their inheritance, Edward Partridge was at the time Joseph Rhodes. So this is in November of 27th of 1832. At the time was out of order. That's the phrase the first presence he used. Neglecting his own duty and putting forth his hand to steady the ark. Hence, he was warned of the judgment of God,

and the prediction was made about another one mighty and strong. But then it goes on to say that in the midst of these times, Edward Partridge acted a most noble and self-sacrificing part and bore many indignities with the greatest patience. He was taken to the public square of independence, partly stripped of his clothing, and bedobed with tar and feathers amid the jures of the mob.

He neither complained nor murmured at this treatment. But bore it well with meat and dignity. He was one of five others to offer himself as a ransom for the church, and he told the mob he was willing to be scourged or killed if they would let the rest of the saints go. This is after the letter. I mean, he comes back. And then the first presence he continues further in that letter and says, who shall say that his repentance, his Edward Partridge, his sacrifices, his sufferings and faithfulness, did not procure

for him a mitigation of the severe judgment to creed against him in the revelation contained in the 85th section of the doctrine of covenants. At any rate, the Lord said some three years later that he was well pleased with Edward Partridge. And so, yeah, Edward Partridge, in fact, after he is just brutalized by the mob, they're in front of the courthouse in Independence, which is just down the street from W. W. F. L. Press. Edward Partridge never really completely recovers and he dies. I believe about seven years later as the church is entering into Navu. He just never, never fully recovers, but he was willing to do that. And so that statement about the one mighty and Strong, the first presidency, the gist of what they were saying is, it became Nolan Void.

Yes. In the 1830s, that became Nolan Void. We are not looking for One Mighty and Strong to come forward today to grab the scepter and save the church. That Edward Partridge rose to the occasion, repented, and the Lord accepted his repentance, and Edward Partridge was one of the truly good guys in this dispensation. Can you're doing something I love here, which is protecting our, the saints of the past, protecting their name, protecting their reputation. There's so many who want to focus on their weaknesses. If you could write a book on Edward Partridge and all the things he did wrong,

and the book might be factually correct, but you would not be judging him correctly. He's a great man. You would miss the man. You would miss the man. You would you would miss the man. I just a quick story I love about Edward Partridge is the Lord reveals the law of consecration in section 42. You know, there's those verses starting about verse 30 and then some later verses, but but it's not a lot of detail. And then Edward Partridge's bishop is given the instruction, comes from the Lord through Joseph to go up to Thompson, Ohio when the Colville Saints arrive and basically put the

law into practice. He's a hatter. He can make those Colville Saints hats and they look really stylish, but he's not a lawyer, he's not a real estate agent. And so I'd love it that he's willing to tell Joseph, Joseph, I need some instructions. You know, how am I supposed to do this? What does it mean? And the Lord, I just love section 51. In the book of commandment, somebody wrote on it,

don't publish or not to be published or something like that across the top of the page. And I'm so glad that they did publish it, that WWFelps typed cast that and put it into the book of commandments because the instructions that Edward Partridge receives enables him to begin executing the law. And he's, yeah, I think Edward Partridge is one of the real heroes from the early years of the church.

I mean, the first bishop called in almost two millennia. What a staggering responsibility. Yeah. And we can do the same thing with our leaders and our bishops. Right? I mean, when our bishop is up there and he's we see, oh, he may be doing something we wouldn't say or he's doing something we wouldn't do, we'd say, well, he's, this isn't, he wasn't seeking this position. He wasn't, you know, he wasn't, hopefully I can run the ward soon, right? I'm I have a wonderful bishop. He's in human resources, right?

That's his employment and he's doing things that he did not probably want or ever, you know, thought he would do but he's doing them and it's not my place to correct him. I just think he's he's got a great soul and I'm amazed at all the sacrifice he offers. One of the things I learned when I was Bishop about about studying the art was I learned that bishops know a lot of things that nobody else knows. And I just thought after like a couple of months, I was like, you know, I am never going to question again because there's just other things that nobody else knows about what's going on that you're trying to navigate and I just thought I'm just not gonna I'm just gonna support the keys because I know that there's things that I don't know and and I I think we I love that we can trust the Lord to communicate

with His leaders. I guess just one parting shot and the thought on section 85 is, you know, yay for them writing these things down, yay for them saving them, you know, today I think we don't commit enough. Our conversations are on email and they disappear, our conversations are over the phone and they disappear. Our conversations are like been on zoom in the last last year or so and they disappear. And there's something to be said for permanence. And if you look at the words of prophets and apostles and their counsel, there's frequent and repetitive counsel to keep journals, to keep, you know, whether it's a gratitude journal or a daily journal or whatever it might

be, but to record some of these things. And quite frankly, there have been times in my life when I'm really great at journal keeping, and there have been times in my life when I'm not really great at journal keeping. And being good at journal keeping, it's better. It's at this stage in life, it's so much fun to be able to go back and check something and go, oh, I had to remember that a little bit wrong in the years.

But there it is, recorded on the day it happened. And that's that's the way it was because I recorded it. I recorded it then. And so I think I think maybe the fact this is not Joseph's only letter in the doctrine of covenants. There are actually several letters, I mean, section 127, 128, their letters, a section 122, 121, 121, 122, 123. There's lots of lots of letters.

And so I think there's something to be said for us, just remembering that we need to record much of our life so that our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren can benefit from that. I just had the opportunity over the past year during the pandemic. One of the projects I took on was taking my mother and father's journals

Moms turning 90 this year and dad just turned 91 and they've got 7,000 pages of journals that we've turned into PDF pages for all of their posterity and it's so much fun to be able to just have that record and I will confess it has spurred me to be more more diligent in my my record keeping and so I would just I would just give that as a you know I that's not one of the direct messages out of section 85 but I think it's an ancillary one that's that's just useful to remember. Yeah. Let me mention a paragraph from the Come Follow Me manual before we go forward. It says, the history described in verse one recorded the names of those who had received inheritance in heritances legally in Zion. However, this history was more than just administrative. It was also a valuable record of the saints, quote, manner of life, their faith, and works, close quote, that's

from verse two. And then the comfuld me manual says, are you keeping a personal history or journal? What could you record about your manner of life, faith and works that might be a blessing to future generations? How might this history be a blessing for you? So I think that's exactly what you were saying, Ken, thank you.

Yeah. Let's go now to section 86. Can you give us some backstory and background of what's happening before we dive into the verses here? You bet. Section 86 actually follows section 85, but just by little more than a week, it's the 6th of December, 1832. And we don't know absolutely for certain, but there's enough little breadcrumbs and clues that lead folks to conclude that this section looks like it clearly comes out

of Joseph's work on what we call today, the Joseph Smith translation, which the doctrine and covenants calls the new translation or simply the translation. So just very briefly then, Joseph has Oliver Coudry purchase a Fini Cooperstown Bible, as it's called today in 1828 edition, and then there are various scribes and Joseph uses that. He calls it the main branch of his calling for a period. And it's the way that the Lord does a couple of things. First, he teaches Joseph additional things about the gospel.

Joseph learns a great deal about gospel principles. During that translation, he also receives numerous revelations. Oh my goodness, there are dozens of revelations in the doctrine of Covenant that tie either directly like section 76 or indirectly like section 91 to the translation of the Joseph Smith translation. This is one of those sections. And so what happens is they start doing the Old Testament. And then in section 45, Joseph's told, hey, you're asking great questions on some things, go do the new testament. So they leave the Old Testament alone, go do the New Testament. Then when they finish that, they go back, pick up the Old Testament, and then reach the Apocrypha in section 91 and that's another story for another day. But they have done, they have gone through the New Testament for the first time, about a

year before this revelation is recorded. Now interestingly, it looks like from the record that we have of Joseph's work on the Joseph Smith translation, that Joseph made no changes to Matthew 13 regarding the parable of the Wheat and the Terrors. The first time Joseph went through it, they just didn't make any changes. first time Joseph went through it, they just didn't make any changes. And so what it looks like was happening here in December 1832 is that Sidney Rigden is once again with Joseph as as scribe. By this point, as they're reviewing the material, Sidney Rigden is the main scribe. He's assigned that responsibility in section 35. But by this point, Frederick G. Williams is serving as Joseph's primary scribe as he's kind of touching up and working on final edits of

the Joseph Smith translation. But for whatever reason, Sidney Rigdon comes in and is helping Joseph at this point, and we know that because it's in Sid's in city riggins handwriting. And what happens is it looks like Joseph just receives additional guidance and inspiration about those from Section 86 is that this is very much a parable of the last days. It has an application for the early apostles and when the Savior gives that parable, if you turn to Matthew 13, the apostles ask because it's also after the parable of the Sower. Those two parables, parable of the Sower and parable wheat and tarres, kind of go together. They're in in almost neighboring verses in Matthew 13. But the apostles don't understand either one and they ask the Lord, please help us out. Tell us what they mean. And so Jesus explains both of them to them, but what we learn in section 86 of them to them. But what we learn in Section 86 is that through the years there's been

a major error creep in to the Bible as we have it today regarding the parable of the Wheat and the Tears. Because in the Bible it says that the Wheat and the Tears are there It says that the wheat and the tears are there and that what will happen is, in Matthew 1330, it says, gather ye together. So go out and do the harvest, gather ye together, and in Matthew in the Bible, it says, first the tears. Well, the Joseph Smith translation and doctrine ofvenant's 86 now absolutely turn that around. And what it says in Joseph Smith Matthew is, first the wheat into my barn, or as it says in section 86, let the wheat and the tears grow together until the harvest is fully ripe, then ye shall first gather out the wheat.

Now, think about the way the gospel is being shared with the world in these the latter days. Are we going out and gathering wicked people, people that are trying to tear down the church? No? Are gathering those that are seeking Christ. And our invitation is to invite all to come in a Christ. And that doesn't mean that someone that that was doing something wrong can't repent and straighten up and join the church. But those that are actively working against the cause of God,

you know, the way the Matthew account is, is they're supposed to be gathered first. And that's just not the, just not the way it works. And it's's, so I think it's helpful to remember with Section 86, there's a statement from Elder Bruce Armakonky in the doctrinal New Testament commentary. He kind of talks about parables because I think sometimes we think that parables are designed to enlighten us and make things crystal clear. No, no.

And Elder Makonky points out very clearly, he says, parables seldom clarify a truth. Rather, they obscured and hide the doctrine involved, so that none but only those that are already enlightened and informed are able to grasp the full meaning. And then Elder Maconkey said, nowhere is this better illustrated than the parable of the wheat and the tariff.

When Jesus first gave the parables, even the disciples didn't understand it, they asked for an interpretation and he gave it, well, partially. The Lord still had to give a special revelation in that section 86 in the latter days, so the full meaning of this marvelous parable might sink into the hearts of men. So as you look at section 86, the question I guess is what new things do we learn in section 86? And I think the big thing we learn is that it's the wheat that's gathered first. We're looking for people that want to come under Christ. That's the key. Gospel will be offered to everyone, but we're seeking those who want to come unto Christ. But Section 86 also teaches who the the sower is because the parable talks about a man going out and sowing and

Section 86 clearly says that's the apostles. They have that responsibility. If you think of what an apostle is, it's a special representative of Christ, you know, whose mission is to help us come onto the Savior. It also clearly defines in section 86 who the enemy is, and it says very clearly, it's Saint, it's Babylon, it's the world, that's who the tears are. It also defines, see, and this wouldn't have made a lot of sense to the apostles back in the Meridian of time because there had been no apostasy. But he talks about in section 86, the apostles falling asleep because the apostles were killed and an apostasy occurred. And it talks about the church and the wilderness, which wouldn't have made a great deal of sense probably to those

early apostles. That's the apostasy. It helps us better understand what it means to be tender wheat. It helps us better understand what it means to be tender wheat. Section 86 defines it as weakness or noonus in the gospel. You know, people whose testimonies are still maybe a little shaky and developing. It also helps us, I think, see a little bit clearer that tears are, you know, not just those that fight against the church, but also, you know, probably also evil doctrines that they're espousing. And then it talks about the harvest and the burning. And now, in this dispensation, that's the millennium, which is gonna be a key point in this dispensation.

And it points out that the angels are anxious to reap. And Wilford Woodruff and others have had comments about that. And so Section 86, it's a wonderful, wonderful section that the Lord takes. The doctrine of covenants is sometimes a wonderful commentary on other scripture. And this is a classic example of the doctrine of covenants being commentary on, in this case, the Bible, Matthew chapter 13. One other thing that we get from Joseph's work with the Joseph Smith translation that figures into this, because it talks in section 86 about the end of the world. And in Joseph

Smith Matthew, or you can go through the Joseph Smith translation both, because Joseph Smith Matthew of course is just excerpt from the JST. But it says there in Joseph Smith Matthew 1 verse 4 that as he Christ sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately saying, tell us, when shall these things be, which thou hast said, concerning the destruction of the temple and the Jews? And what is the sign of thy coming? Or the end of the world?

And then Joseph adds this wonderful phrase in the Joseph Smith translation, or the destruction of the wicked, which is the end of the world. And so that's also, I think, alluded to in Section 86, that it's talking about the end of the world. And so that's also I think alluded to in section 86 that it's talking about. The end of the world, you know, there have been lots of people. We always have that image of the guy with the long beard and the sign, you know, walking around the end is near. Well, the end of the world is the destruction of the wicked as, you know, preparing us for the millennial, the millennial reign of the Savior when there will be, when you're not going to have to lock your car. Yeah. You're not going to have to lock your front door.

Okay. And people that were in the military like me are going to be out of a job. There's not going to be any for, they won't make war anymore. Oh, I love that. And so, so Section 86 is just, it's just fun. I just, I just really love it when the Lord kind of takes Joseph and he puts his arm around him and just kind of says, Hey, I'm going to pull the curtain back for you. Yeah, I love it. So let me, let me pull it back. These scriptures have been there. People have been reading for thousands of years. Let me pull the curtain back. Here's what it means.

And I just love that when that happens. And Section 86 is a classic case. Elder Maxwell called that like exploring a new room in the scriptures, right, in your own house, where you find a new fireplace to be warmed by. I wrote a book on parables. It sold dozens of copies, mostly to my mother, but I learned something very important in verse three that I have impacted me. He even, he throws in in Ken the Lord throws in

verse three a little bit of the parable of the sower when he says the tears or the weeds choke the wheat in verse three and if you go to Matthew 13 verse 22 this is how that happens. How do tears choke the wheat or saints? He says, these are people who receive the seed, but the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word. And he become a th unfruitful. That's a place where I stop with my students and say, what are the cares of this world and what are the deceitfulness of riches that can spoil our faith, that can choke out our faith. There's so much to learn there because as I become more and more worldly, as I get caught up in whatever's happening in the world, then I just don't have time

for the Lord. It's not that the soil's bad. I've just got so many other weeds in my life that the testimony doesn't get any time. It doesn't get any sunlight. It doesn't get any resources because, hey, I've got a lot going on, right? I've got seasons on Netflix. I need to watch. I've got, you know, I've got professional basketball games

recorded. I don't think this is a, this is bad people. This is when I allow the, what did you call it? Is it the doctrine of the world? I think you called it can, to just choke my life. It takes all the resources, takes all my time, takes all my energy. And that, oh, it both has scared me. And I think the parables of Jesus, Elder Mcconkey was right. He veils the meaning and then when you see it unveiled, it should scare you. Because then you find out you've got a lot of changing to do. Well, and once you

understand it, then you're responsible for it. Yeah. Yeah, I think Elder Mcconkey also said he made a comment about the parable of the sower and talked about that type of soil. He called it the four kinds of soil because really it's more about the soil than it is about the sower. But he said that the place where it fell among thorns with the weeds is good soil as evidenced by the growth of the undesirable plants, but he used the phrase, but the tears end up choking them. Maybe he got that from section 86. Instead of overcoming them, they get choked by the tears. And I just wanted to add that I came across a book years ago called Money for Nothing. It was about people who had won the lottery in Michigan.

And there were a couple of chapters, a few chapters in this book, where people who won the lottery said, this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. And one guy said, I made some investments, and I spend my life now with lawyers and lawsuits every day. Another person said, we used to shop at this mom and pop grocery store and they were so nice, they'd always put a

couple of extra oranges or extra apples in our bag and now that they know we've won the lottery, nobody does that anymore. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. And whenever I talk about those weeds, the deceitfulness of riches that you mentioned, they go, he's like, say, how rich is deceitful? And if you think, if I just had that, then everything would be fine. Well, no, it just gives you a new set of problems maybe in some ways. And that's how they can be deceitful. These people are saying, and I know joke, hey, you've got lots of jokes about money, can't buy happiness, but I thought, you know, these people were saying, yeah, I want a million dollars.

It's the worst thing that's ever happened to me. I'm like, what? Yeah, and it seems that the Lord knows. What did Paul say? The love of money is the root of all evil. Not money. It's the love of money that is the root of all evil. Man, can I really love this this section now?

It's a fun section and the the Joseph Smith translation is just filled with nuggets. And when you get something in the doctrine of covenants that expands what's in the Joseph Smith translation, it's a double win. It's just it's just very cool. It's one thing to have win. It's just, it's just very cool. It's one thing to have a commentary right about the parables. I tried that to Hank, but to have the savior comment on his own parable, it's like having a binadi comment on Isaiah. Oh, thank you. A prophet can comment on this prophet. That's hard to understand. That's so helpful. Ken, I really liked when you talked about verse four, the blade is yet tender. Says it again in verse six. The blade is yet tender. Early days of the church.

Nearly your faith is weak. Yeah, this is a brand new little church. And the Lord is kind of sheltering it, you can say, trying to protect it from those tears. And we can do the same thing for new members, for children and youth, protect those tender testimonies from the great persecutor of the church. Right, verse 3. There's a great phrase from Elder Holland and I would have to look up which

talk it was in, but I remember the phrase and he says, it's always 1830 somewhere. And I love that phrase that somewhere in the world, it's always 1830. There's just a little band of saints. The gospel has just barely been introduced there. And the blade is yet tender and young. And so I just think wherever you are listening to this, that probably not too far away, that there's either a branch of the church where it's like 1830, or there are individual members of the church where in their family and their church where it's like 1830 or there are individual members

of the church, where in their family and their home, it's like 1830. They've just received the Book of Mormon. They're just learning these doctrines and the wheat is still tender and green. I love it. And we can do a lot to protect those tender blades. Please join us for part two of this podcast.