Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Helaman 1-6 Part 1 • Jenae Nelson • August 26 - September 1 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: August 21, 2024

How do we stay strong when things around us are in decline? Dr. Jenae Nelson examines the Pride Cycle and the Virtue Cycle and examines how we can strengthen ourselves and trust in the Lord to save His children.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM35ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM35FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM35DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM35PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM35ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/V5QCJDA0OPkALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 Part I  -  Dr. Jenae Nelson02:00 Dr. Nelson’s bio03:27 Come, Follow Me Manual: Symbolism and intrigue07:09 The beginning of evil bands and Egyptian names08:54 Hebrew Structure in Helaman10:26 Summary of Helaman 1-616:42 How to identify Pride Cycles and encourage virtuous cycles19:57 Virtue and vices24:04 Protect the private times with the Lord29:50 Scriptures teach us truths that science confirms35:16 Helping teach external motivations40:57 Trust the Lord to give His children spiritual experiences47:25 Trying to control hurts outcomes59:32 Helaman 5:35 - Angels will come to those we love1:03:20 Aminadab and dissention1:06:54 -  End of Part 1 - Dr. Jenae NelsonThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I always remember, remember my co-host, John, by the way. John, we are joined by Dr. Janae Nelson. We're starting a new book. We've gone through the long book of Alma. It has been a while since we've had a new book. Tell me about the Book of Helaman. What comes to mind? Pride cycle because I've seen the seminary movies and the lesson plans. It starts fast forwarding after Alma.

The thing that President Ezra Taft Benson said is that, hey, if you want to know what things are like before the Savior's second coming, watch in the Book of Mormon how they are before his first coming. Ooh, here it comes in the Book of Helaman. A lot of topsy-turvy pride cycle stuff going on here. And we have these two brothers, Nephi and Lehi, who are standout characters and maybe don't get the type of coverage that early characters in the Book of Mormon do. We're going to change that today. Janae, before we introduce you, tell us what we're going to do today. We're going to see a lot of contrast in the Book of Helaman, looking at Helaman like a survival

guide, a survival of the latter days. We're going to learn how to build our lives and our testimonies on Jesus Christ, what that looks like, talk about dissenters and people who've left, and how to build our lives and our testimonies on Jesus Christ, what that looks like, talk about dissenters and people who've left and how to go after the one and how to rescue the one. Talk about character and some other cycles. There's the pride cycle and there's some other cycles happening. There's a virtuous cycle and a vicious cycle. We'll begin and end with the heart, the condition of our heart and what a converted heart looks like. The darkness of these few chapters is really dark, but the miracles are unbelievable.

So the contrast, I can absolutely see that. John, Dr. Nelson has never been with us before, so we are very blessed, very lucky today, to introduce her to our wonderful listeners. Dr. Janay Nelson earned her bachelor's and doctorate degrees in developmental psychology at BYU. She's currently an assistant professor in the psychology department. She completed her post-doctoral research at Baylor University, focusing on character development during adolescence and young adulthood, and at Harvard Medical School, where she studied,

hang on to your chair, Hank, the neuroscience of spirituality. Wow. Right? Yeah, we got to talk about that. Her expertise lies in the cultivation of character traits such as, this is a fave of mine, gratitude and compassion and the positive impacts of religion and spirituality on youth development. She has been featured in the church news, Music and the Spoken Word, Christianity Today, the Associated Press, Meridian Magazine, and BYU Magazine, and we were talking before. She's also been with Bruce and Marie Hafen on the Faith is Not Blind podcast. Dr. Nelson and her husband

have four children. We're really happy to have you. I am especially excited to hear about gratitude because I feel like it's such a cure-all for so many things. Janaye, welcome. Thank you for being here. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. I'm going to take a look at the Come Follow Me manual and then, J'nay, I'm excited to hand the reins over to you. Here's how the manual starts. It says, the Book of Helaman records both triumphs and tragedies. You already mentioned that contrast. Among the Nephites and Lamanites, it begins with a serious difficulty among the people of the Nephites and Lamanites, it begins with a serious difficulty among the people of the Nephites and the difficulties keep coming throughout the record.

Here we read about political intrigue, bands of robbers, rejection of the prophets, and pride and disbelief throughout the land. But we also find examples like Nephi and Lehi, the more humble part of the people, who not only survived but thrived spiritually. How did they do it? How did they stay strong while their civilization began to decline and fall apart? The same way any of us stay strong in the mighty storm the devil sends to beat upon us by building our lives upon the rock of our Redeemer who is Christ the Son of God,

a foundation whereon if men build, they cannot fall. There's a great parallel to our day here. Yeah, I think we should start at the very beginning. And I don't know if Mormon did this on purpose, but I think it's really nice how it sets up the whole chapter. There's an event that happens that I think is quite symbolic. We have the Lamanites coming into the center of the land in verse 26, Helaman 1. Moroniha had supposed that the Lamanites durst not come into the center of the land, but that they would attack the city's round about in the borders as they have hitherto done. This is a great analogy, like I said,

whether it's on purpose or not, I don't know if Mormon was doing this intentionally, we often leave our centers, our hearts, our homes unguarded. And we focus quite often on the borders, on the people out there that are having problems, the wickedness in the world. And we're not thinking about how can we guard our center? How can we protect our center? How can we build a fortress around our hearts? I like starting off with that, especially because we're going to end in chapter six, Helaman six, we're going to be ending with the heart. What can go right in the heart of the believers during perilous times.

The adversary switched strategies. You're thinking, oh, it's going to be same old, same old. This is what they do. And then this has never happened. Right. This is brand new. We see that today that he's attacking our homes and getting into our hearts. That's a problem when Satan gets into our hearts and homes. The doctor will say, you need to strengthen your core. When what you're worried about is how does my hair look? How are my shoes? He says, no, the center, this is where this all begins. Exactly. And we see that the strife and these secret bands that start forming,

it begins with family fighting. It's these three brothers that are fighting for this chief judge seat. It's interesting. The fighting is starting in a family. It's like Mormon is trying to draw our attention immediately to the center of our lives. I've often thought, Helaman 1, we're fighting so much among ourselves, no one's watching. No one's paying attention to what the enemy is doing because we've got so much inner conflict. Everybody took their eye off the actual enemy. Right, and it's also extremely hopeful in perilous times to think that the work that I do in my own heart

and in my own home can make a difference, and it does make a difference. And that's something I can influence. It's difficult for me to influence so far away from me, the political stances of the world versus what's right here. Exactly. And it's interesting that at the very beginning here, Mormons explaining how these bands start, these secret combinations are starting, they're being introduced here,

Kishkumen and Gadiaten, and how it's these tiny little seeds that are being sown that we read later on end up becoming the destruction of the entire people. We want to keep that on the forefront of our mind as we're going through Helaman. What are these tiny little incremental changes that are happening that can lead to really large changes over time. I have to read this Hugh Nibley excerpt because it's so interesting. He said there were three sons of Pahoron named Pahoron, Paeyankai, because ankh is where the emphasis is. My dad used to say don't put the emphasis on the wrong syllable. Pahoron, Paeyankai, and Pecumenei. Peankai is one indisputable Egyptian name in the Book of Mormon.

Nobody can ever dispute that. Either the Joseph Smith could have invented it or that it could not be pure 100% Egyptian. Because Peankai, and the way the Egyptologists spelled it, P-I-A-N-K-H-I was a very important person in Egyptian history just before Lehi's day. But this wasn't discovered until the end of the 19th century, this name. Hia Nibli says, there is in the Book of Mormon within one important family a group of names beginning with P-A. It's hard to explain bulls eyes like Pehorin and Paonkai as pure accidents. I'm sure a lot of people aren't out there, I got to save that for my baby book, Paonkai. I like the sound of that.

I have to tell you guys, as I was preparing for this podcast, I reached out to a friend of mine from Baylor, who's a theologian, not a member of our faith. And I asked him if he would be willing to read Helaman, one through six with me, and then give me his insight. And he did, he's such a good friend. It was so fun hearing his feedback. I mean, he could have done this in any part of the Book of Mormon, but he was like, that's Hebrew structure.

You see this in the Old Testament, you see this in the Old Testament, you see this in the New Testament. I'm like, it's almost like this is written by God. It might just be the Word of God. It's really neat when you find those little faith promoting things in the Book of Mormon, and it's everywhere because there's no way that Joseph Smith could have written this book. That example that you used, John, is just one of many. There's so many examples like that that testify that this book has divine origin.

Has some ancient roots. He must have gone down to the Harmony, Pennsylvania Public Library and found that or something. Right? John, Janee, I don't think people are as familiar with the story in the Book of Helaman as maybe we are with the story of First Nephi. There's a lot of new names, a storyline that can be confusing about who's a dissenter, who's a chief judge, who is a gadiant robber. Jon, you're an expert in storyline. Janay, you're gonna be the expert in human development here.

I will play the part of student and learning along. Oh, I've always wanted to have a class where my students had PhDs. First, I love saying this because I'd love to think that Elder Uchtdorf is my dear friend. Let's take the 30,000 foot view because he is so good at seeing everything that way. If we get way above the Book of Mormon, I mentioned before and President Benson said, hey, you want to know what it's going to be like before the second coming? Look at the first coming in the Book of Mormon. And it's not just the Book of Helaman. Go back to Mosiah. The church is organized. Go to the beginning of Alma. Missionaries are sent forth for sons of Mosiah. Everybody, Antichrist show up and then there's wars and rumors of wars for the rest of the book of Alma and then

the book of Helam and that's where we are today. We got the signs of the times, we've got disputes during elections, does that sound familiar? We've got political contention, we've got wickedness in high places. Secret combinations show up. And then the Lamanites' blossoms arose and here comes Samuel the Lamanite at the end of human. And then here comes the destruction of the wicked in 3rd Nephi and the appearance of Christ. Mid 3rd Nephi and then almost a mini millenn millennium in fourth Nephi, and then a return to wickedness at the end, final battles Mormon and Moroni. There's 30,000 feet. Now, let's set autopilot to just go down and look at the book of Helaman. Now we're at 10,000 feet over Helaman chapter 1.

Moroni gives the government of the wars to his son Moroni. Ha! Moroni Hop. Yep. And then we have these P names come up. We need a new chief judge. We've got Pahoron, the second son of Pahoron, the first, Paeanki, and Pacumani. The voice of the people goes with Pahoron. Paeanki is mad about this. So he says, you're going to pay. That's how I remember Peankai. You're going to pay. Pakumai says, I will pack up election headquarters and go along with the will of the people. He does that. But then Kishkumen comes and murders Pahoran. And then they set up this secret combination. And right away we are starting to see, as we talked about, those contrasts are being set up almost immediately where

you have Kishkumen and Gadiaten and the way that they're approaching power and then you have the way that the righteous are approaching it. The wicked are working in secret, they're not law-abiding, they're murdering. Also, the righteous, they're acting in accordance with the law and the voice of the people. It says that several times. We're getting this contrast of wickedness and righteousness and how does that look in the political realm? There's law-abiding versus the secret murderous plots happening. How many chief judges end up dead here in chapter one? Yeah. They call it the judgment seat.

Right now it's the judgment pot seat or the judgment revolving door. Who wants to even sit on that thing? Peonkai gets executed like you said. And then here comes this Coriantimer. Why they are so concerned, they're distracted. And Coriantimer, a descendant of Zarahemla, a dissenter from among the Nephites, comes in to the center of the land. And it says in verse 18, there's so much contention and difficulty in the government, they hadn't kept

sufficient guards in the land of Zarahemla. They didn't think anybody would be so bold as to come in. And he slays Pecumenei. So now all three sons of Pahoran. Yeah, Pahoran, Peancay, Pecumenei are all Patae, which is Filipino for dead. So those guys are all dead. Now, here comes Helaman, is appointed to fill the judgment seat in chapter two by the voice of the people. And while Helaman is out by night, this Kishkumen gave a servant of Helaman a sign to take me to the judgment seat. Here's the secret plan. The servant of Helaman knows this is going to happen, stabs Kishkumen even to the heart that he fell dead without a groan. Helaman 2 verse 9.

We talked about at the beginning these contrasts that are immediately set up. This is a literary device, but this is what's actually happening in this era, is you have these heroes and these villains, and then we learn of their tactics. So we have Helaman who is working according to the voice of the people, like we talked about. He's keeping the statutes, judgments, and commandments of God, and it says that he did right in the sight of God continually, contrasting that now with Gadianton. He was using flattery, craft, secret work. He was after power and authority, and he ended up proving the entire destruction of his people. These are nicely contrasted. And the thing that's really important here is that there's very few people who are healman-like and

gadientian-like. Like, we have these heroes and these villains. These are contrasted for us to see what's the end result of a vicious cycle? What's the end result of a virtuous cycle? We can decide that, hey, this path leads to life eternal. This path leads to death. And Mormon is very clearly laying this out for us in a way that we cannot miss. Sometimes we do miss it. Instead of focusing on the center, like we talked at the beginning,

we're focused on the society at large, pointing outwards and saying, there's all these things that are wrong with society and culture in the latter days, instead of looking internally and asking, what could I do better? This seems like it would be a time of breaking news every day Breaking news the elections been decided breaking news. Pacumana is dead breaking news

The Lamanites have attacked when he Luman gets the job as chief judge. I gotta be thinking. Oh man Do you really want that job? Yeah Why would you want that job? I just wonder how unsettling it would be. But imagine if people keep assassinating the leader of your country and it keeps happening over and over and over and how unsettling that would be to the whole. Country. Janay, you said earlier earlier something that really resonated with me

and that is this tiny little problem is starting and they have no idea that it's happening. Things are great, they're wonderful, and yet there's almost like this cancer growing inside of this society. This scares me and take us where you want to go here. How do you fight against something that you don't even know is there? As we talked about the very beginning with cycles, you have the typical pride cycle that we all know really well, where the people are righteous, they're blessed, they prosper, they start to worship their riches, and they become prideful and wicked. And then they persecute the poor, suffering wars, contentions come in, which humbles them and right we all are familiar with this pride cycle, but the

interesting thing is that it's leading you to the same place of where you started. You're bad then you're good, then you're bad then you're good, you're bad and you're good, but you're never really growing. It's like the cycle of stagnation. Nobody wants to be in that cycle, but there's two other cycles that are happening at the same time. One that gives us a lot of hope and one that can be kind of scary, like you're talking about, Hank. One is called a virtuous cycle. That means that you're spiraling up. And a vicious cycle literally means it's a downward spiral.

We have those that are on these virtuous cycles. Nephi and Lehi are examples of this, so we'll talk about what they do, and the humble followers of God. These people that are getting more and more righteous, they're moving closer and closer to Christ. In these perilous times, they're able to do this successfully. So that's the message of hope for me in Helaman 1, is that there are people who are getting more righteous, even though there's this wickedness that's growing in. This idea of this incremental change is really nicely played out in Helaman 3. At the very beginning of the chapter, it talks about in verse 1, there was no contention among the people of Nephi, save it were a little pride and little dissensions. So we start really small.

And then you get to verse three, and all of a sudden there was much contention, many dissensions. And then go down to verse 17, there was great contentions and disturbances. We start from none to little bit, to, many and great. This is an example of a vicious cycle in action happening on a societal level. You guys have all heard the quote by John Witten, the legendary basketball coach. He said the true test of a man's character is what he does when no one is watching. It's very significant here that in Healaman we begin to see secret works. It says several times that the murderers couldn't be found.

It was secret. They were hiding what they were doing. One of the first signs that you may be doing something you shouldn't be doing is if you try to keep it a secret. I think this is really important, especially for the youth to know that there's a difference between keeping something secret and holding something sacred. We know there are certain things in the temple that we hold sacred. We have really special experiences with the Lord that we will hold sacred in our hearts. But keeping something secret is hiding

because you're ashamed of what you're doing. You don't want people to know. You seek to cover up what you're doing or to hide. That's usually the first indicator that you might be in a vicious cycle. We certainly see that with Kishkumen and Gadiaton. Obviously this is an extreme example. It can be much more simple in our life where maybe we're hiding the amount of time that we're spending on the internet. We're hiding the things that we're doing on the internet. The first thing that Satan does when we sin is to tell us to hide. Hide. Cover it up. He knows that if we hide that we are not seeking the Lord and we're not seeking light. I really like what you're saying, Chennai. I'm looking in

verse 12 of Helaman 1 where Kishkumen came in in disguise. I mean if we just stop right there, in disguise, okay? Somebody is hiding. Somebody doesn't want to be seen. It's not what it appears to be. Then, Khashoggi and his band had covenanted with him, did mingle themselves among the people. So now they're hiding in plain sight. They're among the people, but you don't know it. And that's where this gets frightening. Like you said, you have to look around and say, are there things I'm not seeing? I always remember this, sorry to go back to the 70s or 80s, but President Boyd K. Packer gave that talk about spiritual crocodiles and how they would hide in a waterhole and you didn't even see that the danger was there, but they

were right there. And he told this really awful story about being told at an African safari, hey, how come there are no animals next to that waterhole? And the guide said, crocodiles. And why don't see any crocodiles? He's no there, hidden under the mud, told them years ago, a young man didn't believe it. He saw something, he went out to that waterhole. And President Packer said, in a moment, a crocodile had him and there's nothing we could do. It was a horrible story, but it was in disguise. It was covert and

you didn't know it was there. How nice to have somebody warn you to be on the lookout. Nicole Soule I have heard that story and that reminds me of Sherry Do's comment about how prophets see around corners. They can see these hidden dangers, they're warned of the Lord, and it's their calling in their job to warn us. 2010, Elder Holland, Place no more for the enemy of my soul, fits exactly what you are saying. This is one paragraph.

He says, Why is lust such a deadly sin? Well, in addition to the completely spirit-destroying impact it has upon our souls, I think it is a sin because it defiles the highest and holiest relationship God has given us in mortality, the love that a man and a woman have for each other, and the desire that couple has to bring children into a family intended to be forever. Someone once said that true love must include the idea of permanence. True love endures, but lust changes as quickly as it can turn a pornographic page or glance at yet another potential object for gratification, walking by, male or female. And then this part, true love we are

absolutely giddy about, as I am about Sister Holland. We shout it from the housetops, but lust is characterized by shame, stealth, and is almost pathologically clandestine. Doesn't that sound like Helaman chapter one and two? Pathologically clandestine. The later and darker the hour, the better, with a double bolted door, just in case. Love makes us instinctively reach out to God and to other people. That's what you talk about, that sacredness. Lust, on the other hand, is anything but godly and celebrates self-indulgence. Love comes with open hands and an open heart. Lust comes only with an open appetite. So that contrast

you're showing us between secret, hide it, and sacred, cherish it. Good point. I love that you contrasted a virtue with a vice We can choose whether or not we're going to cultivate virtuous behavior or these destructive behaviors I loved from this most recent conference elder Stephen our bengader in his talk for Dane to serve You guys probably remember this he said that his dad told him to protect the private times of his life. The dad said, More than any other time in your life, what you do during the private times of your life will have the greatest impact on how you confront challenges and heartache that you will face. And what you do during the private times of your life will also have a greater impact on how you confront the successes and joy you will experience than any other time in your life.

I like the positive spin on this, that it's not that you're more prone to do evil in these private times, but that also you have this opportunity to connect with God. In the private times of your life, you can pray, you can ponder, you can meditate, you can draw close to the Lord, and that's the best way to use your private time. I really think that's amazing advice for all of us to protect the private time of our life. I love what you said earlier. If you're hiding something, that's usually an indication that if you can't talk about it, you probably ought not to be doing it. It's a good rule to live by. And with adults, it's the same thing. The scripture

says anytime that you endeavor to hide your sin, there's Adam and Eve in the garden. You know, one of the first things, the first impulse is quick, run, hide. Instead of seek the Lord, go to the Lord for refuge, the Lord can cleanse you and heal you. Satan knows that that is the pathway to freedom and joy. So he doesn't want us to do that. He wants us to stay in chains and bondage of sin. The only way to do that is to hide and to stay away from the source of light and truth. Doesn't that sound a lot like, is it Jesus to Nicodemus?

They don't like the light. Yeah, he goes at night to go and talk with Jesus. He comes at night. Is anybody looking? I wanted to talk to you, but I wanted to wait. Yeah. Jesus says, those who love darkness hate the light. Yeah, and if you have nothing to hide, there's nothing wrong with that.

It can reveal good things too, not just bad things. But it's going back to this idea of these little incremental changes that are happening. I think this is really important what Mormon is doing here. And we get the opportunity because of the pace. You kind of mentioned this a little bit at the beginning, Hank, but Alma is long. It's really long. Can you use word chapters? There's like a chapter for every year almost and then within these 16 chapters of Helaman we cover almost the same amount of time but in 16 chapters. So it's condensed, it's faster, but it's also similar

to being middle-aged, where now that I'm in my 40s, I can look back and think about prayers that I said 20 years ago and watch how God answered them. It's so cool. It's like one of the cool things about being middle-aged is that you finally have a little bit of perspective and that you can see it is amazing to see a prayer answered that you said 20 years ago. There's nothing quite like it. And then to see all of the pieces that God put into place over time. So we get this similar type of perspective within Helaman where there's this condensing of time and Mormon is showing us how they went to be a society that was eventually destroyed. We get to watch

this unfold in faster time than usual, which I think is really interesting, but he's showing us that it happened in these little tiny incremental ways. This reminds me of my favorite scripture, which we've already covered in Alma, but I'm going to repeat it because it's so good and it's so applicable here. Small and simple things. So by small and simple things are great things brought to pass. And by small means in many instances doth confound the wise. And the Lord doth work by means to bring about his great and eternal purposes. And by very small means the Lord doth confound the

wise and bringeth about the salvation of many souls." So this is an eternal principle. Small and simple things bring about great things, either great wickedness or great righteousness, depending on the small and simple things you choose to do today. Here's a great quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson. He says, So a thought and you reap an action, so an act and you reap a habit, so a habit and you reap a character, so a character and you reap a destiny.

As a developmental psychologist, I'm really concerned with how we can get our children, our youth, our young single adults, even adults. I care about the whole entire lifespan, but how can we get our people to develop this kind of character that we see come out in Helaman, this virtuous character that Nephi and Lehi display for us? How can we do this? And it's through Mormon is teaching us, Helaman is teaching us, through these small and simple things, we can create this virtuous cycle where we're not good, then we're bad, then we're good, then we're bad. We don't want to be on that train forever. We want

to actually improve and come closer to God. And President Nelson also gave us a great way to think about this when he talked about spiritual momentum. That momentum can be powerful. It can be powerful for good and bad. He says, with frightening speed, a testimony that is not nourished daily by the good word of God can crumble with frightening speed. Thus, the antidote to Satan's scheme is clear. We need daily experiences, worshipping the Lord and studying his gospel. We actually find this in the research. Of course, the scriptures are going to teach us truths, but it's really nice when the research is like a second witness for what we already know to be true.

In research study after research study of adolescence and religious development, we find that the number one predictor of staying in the church are spiritual experiences. It's fantastic if you have good friends. It's fantastic if you have a ward that you like. It's great if you go to seminary. All of those little things are oil drops in your lamp. Ultimately, if you don't experience the Lord. Daily, President Nelson is telling us with frightening speed, our testimonies can crumble. This is a prophet of the Lord seeing around corners, telling us there's a crocodile. To avoid this crocodile, you need to spend time with the Lord every day.

The staying power of a personal experience with God. There's just nothing like it. Even having family home evening, even having family prayer, all of these, like you said, are wonderful, wonderful things. But it has to lead to, I've had my own experience, my own sacred grove. I knew it. I knew that God knew it. And I could not deny it. As parents, sometimes we want to force feed our children with information when it might be better to turn them to God. Have you asked God about this? Have you gone to the Lord? Absolutely. My kids are sick of hearing this, but on Fast Sunday when they're like, Mom, can I break my fast? I'm like, I don't know, go ask the Lord. It's not my role.

I didn't make it up. You ask Him if you're done. And I say the same with church. If they're like, do I have to go to church? I don't know. Ask your heavenly father. It's a commandment, so it's probably a good idea. But it's a different approach when we send our kids to the Lord for answers. Ask the Lord versus trying to give them all the answers and trying to make them do the right things. And what that actually leads to is what we call extrinsic motivation. There's intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. Extrinsic motivation is when you're motivated by outside things. Like you go to church because you're worried what people will think if you don't. You go to church because you're afraid that your parents will be mad if you don't. You buy a really fancy car because you really care about what people

think about your appearance. That's extrinsic motivation. And the problem with extrinsic motivation with religion is it actually hurts our youth. The youth that have extrinsic motivation for their religiosity, their religious behaviors, they do not do as well. They don't have as good of well-being over time, and they don't have the benefits of religion. This is really interesting. But the kids who are intrinsically motivated,

so intrinsic motivation comes from inside. I want to do it. It's the right thing. That's what we want all of our kids to have. We want them to do it because they want to. It's agentic versus controlled. So that extrinsic motivation, even though it may seem like you're making the choice, you're not really free because you're making the choice because you're avoiding the judgment of other people versus you really want to do this. So, but the kids, the youth that are intrinsically motivated in their religious behaviors, those are the ones that get the most protective benefit out of church. And

when I say protective benefit, as a psychologist, I'm talking about outcomes that we generally care about. Like, they don't do drugs, they're not engaging in premarital sex, they get better grades. They're more likely to volunteer and have more civic engagement, things like that, the way that we measure flourishing as psychologists. But I think that we can see that as members of the church. We know when our kids are going for the right reasons versus when they're going based off of this extrinsic motivation. We even see this, this is really interesting, we even see this extrinsic motivation repeatedly in the book of Helaman and how it fails the Nephites. They're so concerned with what other people think that even

when they repent, they're repenting because they're afraid that they're weak. This is Helaman 4, verse 24, and they saw that they had become weak like unto their brethren. And then it says that they, you know, they recognize the error of their ways, they realize that they had done wrong, and then they repent, right? And it says that they become weak because of their transgression in the space of not many years. But essentially what's motivating them to repent is that they see themselves as weak. They're afraid. So they're motivated to repent by fear and by the fact that they're not strong anymore. That this is extrinsic motivation. So it's no wonder that in not very many years later on, we're going to see these people

become wicked again. Their repentance isn't sticking. And the reason why their repentance isn't sticking is because they have this extrinsic motivation. They're not doing it for the right reasons. What does that mean for our youth? And how do we translate that to our youth? Because as a mom, I care about that.

I want to know how can I help my teenagers to have the right motivations? I really love this idea of having personal experiences with the Lord It's kind of hard to teach our kids because they see a checkbox when we say say your prayers and read your scriptures when What we're really after is the outcome Saying your prayers read your scriptures is not the outcome It's hopefully a method to get to that outcome where you have a spiritual experience with the Lord. We try to share in our teaching that what we want is to have the outcome of these habits

and righteous routines is that you'll experience the Spirit of the Lord in your life. That's intrinsic. I work with the youth in my ward and of course I study adolescent development. So this is something that I'm always thinking about but specifically with the new changes that have come to the youth program and how we're approaching like the first strength of youth and how the guidelines are changing. We're moving away from these checkbox approaches with our youth and that is exactly what we need. The Lord knows what the youth need, but it doesn't work if you're not sending them to the Lord, if you're not having them have experiences with the Lord, because the whole point is that they're supposed to pray to their Heavenly Father, they're supposed to ask, inquire, receive revelation on what is right for their life. If they're not doing that, they're going to flounder. They are going to be worse off than if they had a checklist. It's really important that we send them to the Lord in prayer for them to have those personal experiences so that they can find out

what the Lord wants them to do. Because what a lot of the youth think is that the rules went away. I hear this a lot, that there's no rules anymore. I'm like, whoa, that's not the interpretation that we're supposed to have here. Jesus Christ is the standard for youth. So that means that we need to go to Him. We need to go to the Lord and ask Him what we should be doing. That's when it's going to work. And when it does work, it works infinitely better than checkboxes, because checkboxes does lead to that extrinsic motivation. You're doing it for the gold stars. You're not doing it because it feels good or because you have a relationship with the Lord. But if we can encourage our youth to have a relationship with the Lord, that's when the First Strength of Youth

and the Youth Program, the Children and Youth Program will be working best. And the Lord knows that, but this means we really have to be intentional as parents. President Nelson prepped us for this so perfectly. First is emphasis on hear him, learn to hear him, and then be willing to let God prevail. And so hey, it's not in the book, so therefore I can't, no no, it's not in the book, so therefore I can't... No, no, it's not in the book. Therefore, get on your knees and learn to hear Him. And then, are you willing to let God prevail? Answer, and it's exactly right. Don't skip those steps. For the strength of youth is not minimums of behavior, it's doctrines of discipleship. Now you're going to learn to hear Him. And that's harder work. Though Lord is asking

the youth to do the work this time instead of let the book do the work. It's not gonna spell out everything. You're gonna go do the work. Yeah. Which is a taller order for for kids. Yeah. It is, but it's worth the effort. It is worth the effort because what it will result in is it will result in, Sister Joy Jones said, that we need to have a generation of sin-resistant youth. How we do that is by instituting this new program that the Lord has created for this specific generation, for our youth today. We learned that Nephi in Lehi, I love this one little line, and it's in, let's see, Helaman 3 verse 21. It's talking about Helaman and his two sons. He gives eldest the name of Nephi and the youngest the name of Lehi, and they began to grow up unto the Lord. This visual, to me,

it's this virtuous cycle. They're growing up. I'm 43, I can still grow up if I'm doing this virtuous cycle where I'm doing the incremental things over time that can lead to this strength of character. My wife is going to like this episode because that's a frequent message to me and my boys, grow up. Grow up. You can still grow up. There's hope. I love it. Okay, so this is what President Nelson said, we have never needed positive spiritual momentum more than we do now to counteract the speed with which evil and the darker signs of the times are intensifying. I just shared how he said with frightening speed we can lose our testimony, but now he's talking about

positive momentum. Positive spiritual momentum will keep us moving forward amid the fear and uncertainty created by pandemics, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions, and armed hostilities. Spiritual momentum can help us withstand the relentless, wicked attacks of the adversary and thwart his efforts to erode our personal spiritual foundation. Many actions can ignite positive spiritual momentum. Obedience, love, humility, service, and gratitude are but a few. I love this idea that in contrast to this frightening speed with which we can lose our testimonies, we also have within our power this positive spiritual momentum that we can grow up in the Lord and we can move towards this positive virtuous life.

As a parent, I've noticed, Janaye, I want my children to have those spiritual experiences, but I have to trust that the Lord will give them those spiritual experiences. If I wrote the book of James for my kids, it might be, if any of you lack wisdom, let me give you wisdom. Here we go. Let me impart to you of my great wisdom. And then you can go ask the Lord if what I've told you is wonderful, right? Instead, and maybe it's me having my own. Janaye, is that part of it? I trust that the Lord will give them spiritual experiences because I have my own spiritual experiences. I think so. There was a great children and youth broadcast a couple of

years ago where they were interviewing the youth on how asking them like, how can the adults in your life best help you? And the youth shared this. I'll never forget it, but they said share your spiritual experiences with us because it strengthens us and it helps us to know that those are possibilities for us. You're right, Hank, I think that sharing those experiences that we have makes it appealing to them. Then they're going to want that sweetness. If we share the joy of the gospel that we're experiencing, like, I had this amazing experience in the temple, let me share it with you. And then they want that for themselves.

As you were talking about your teenagers though, Hank, this story came to my mind. A couple of weeks ago, my husband and I were visiting a man in our ward, and we were on our walk. We came across this man, one of our neighbors, and he doesn't go to church. He's a really great person. We ended up sitting in the road talking with him for like an hour and a half. I had bread in the oven that actually burned, but it was such a good conversation. I found myself confiding in him about some difficulties I was having with one of my children. This was

interesting because oftentimes with people who aren't members, you think that you're going to go in and you're going to minister to them. You're going to be imparting all this wisdom. And he ended up ministering to me and blessing me. He looked at me in the eyes when I was telling him about this problem I was having with this kid. And he said, don't you trust that the Lord has a plan for them? You're educating me, you're re-educating me, you're helping me remember. I know this but I forget, we forget. He said, it's important for you to keep that in mind that this child has their own path and their own way, and you need to trust that they will come to themselves at the time that is best and right for them. He was literally giving me a sermon, and it changed the way that I thought about this

child, and it helped me to think that I can be patient, I can have faith, I can trust that the Lord is, like we heard in conference, the Lord is also in relentless pursuit of my child and cares just as much about their testimony as I do. You can talk to your heavenly Father. It's so simple when you tell us to do this, Janee, but there's quite a bit of faith involved that the Lord will talk to you. He will. He'll speak to you. He will, especially when it comes to our children, because that is our

most important calling. We get revelation for other callings. We absolutely, absolutely get revelation in our calling as a mother and as a father. When my son was young, he was having a difficult time in school. I was really, really stressing out about his future. He was my first child and we have a tendency to like really be scared with that first one because we just think we're messing everything up. And he was dyslexic. I didn't know that at the time, but that was why he was having such a hard time in school. Because of his difficulty in school, he was also kind of acting out a little bit. And I was thinking the worst that he was going to grow up and end up in jail or something. He's going to be a criminal. I know it. Yeah, I just went all the way there. I was

so worried about him. And he actually has turned out to be the most amazing man, I should say. But at the time, I was very concerned and the Lord corrected me. The Spirit came to me and He said, J'Nai, what's the most important outcome for your son? Is it his grades? Is it that he gets into BYU? Is it that he ends up doing this or that that makes you proud? And I was thinking about that and I was like, okay, the most important thing to me is that he has a testimony, a testimony of the Lord, because you're doing the things that you need to do to make sure that that happens. And God is at the helm. When you invite the Lord into your home

and into your house and into your heart on a regular consistent basis through these continual efforts, these constant efforts that we're talking about, we can have a surety that the Lord is at the helm. All those other things that we worry about, we don't have to worry about. We need to focus on the really simple, simple things that will lead our children to know their Savior and to trust their Savior so that when they do encounter the storms of life, they are prepared because they have the Lord in their life. Hmm. I probably said this before, but it gives me a lot of comfort when I reread

Moses 1.39, the Lord didn't say this is your job and your glory, take as all your children. He said actually this is my work and it's my glory. And then in 2 Nephi, I am able to do my work. I love that line. It's like, I know what I'm doing, you don't, but I do. And he's good at his work. I'll do what I can, but sometimes like Alma the elder, I have to look up and say, would you please help your son? We don't know how and when he's going to do that, but he's got a plan for them too.

And that helps me a lot. Speaking of prayers that are answered 20 years later, God has the long game in mind and he's really good at saving and really good at bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of his children. And that can help us exhale a little bit spiritually, you know. Junaid, as you've been teaching us, I've had two thoughts. One, as a parent, my efforts to control it actually hurt what I want, right? In my efforts to get the outcome, to control the outcome, I'm actually hurting the very thing that I'm trying to get. And then two, I think we have listeners out there who may be a little like me

going, Oh, I wish I would have known this 10 years ago. Oh, I wish I would have known this 20 years ago. And John, we frequently talk about this, that we don't want anyone in our show to walk out going, I'm the worst. That's not what we're about here, is looking back with regret and anger. It's what can we do as we're moving forward. So if there's any listeners out there going, ah, I messed up as a parent.

If I would have done it differently, this kid would be fill in the blank. Remember that what John said, this is the Lord's work. He's working with you too. He has some outcomes for you as well. Many, many people either know or have a child who has left or who is struggling. If I could share, if it's not too self-indulgent, a little bit about my background, I hope this can give some parents some hope. In Helaman, we see all these

narratives of dissenters and we also find this great story of Nephi and Lehi preaching to the dissenters and there's this mass coming back. So that gives me so much hope that this is happening right before Christ comes. There's this mass coming back. So we have this mass exodus, but there's this mass coming back. I can't wait to see that in our church. That gives me hope. As an individual level, the hope that I want to share with you a little bit about my story. I was baptized when I was eight years old. My mom was a member of the church. My grandparents were converts to the church. I didn't go to church very often at all. In essence, I was pretty much not even what I would consider LDS.

But my mom always believed. She had faith. She taught me to pray. She knew the church was true. She would try to read the scriptures with me, but I didn't want to have anything to do with it. We had a really hard life. I grew up with just my mom and my sister. There were some really, really hard times. There was a time when we were homeless, and we lived in a homeless shelter. We lived with family members. It was a really hard time. My mom had severe mental illness and couldn't work. We were on government assistance. At that time in my life, I thought that there was no way that God could be real

because I couldn't see any evidence of Him in my life or at least a loving God. And I thought that if God is real, then he has to be loving. And I don't see a loving God in my life. I looked around and I saw nothing but ruin. 11, 12, 13, this age where you're trying to figure things out. All I saw was my life completely falling apart. I stopped believing in God. I started some self-destructive behaviors. I almost didn't graduate from high school. My mom, as you can imagine, was very worried about me. My mom had been excommunicated, but she still had faith, and she still knew that God was real and that this church was his church. She still had hopes for me and she saw that my life was falling apart. Her and my grandpa had a fast for me. They prayed that I

would come back or at least come to and stop doing this really destructive behavior that I was doing. this really destructive behavior that I was doing. This was when I was 14. I still had a lot of really hard, bad things happen to me. There was still a lot of hardship for me to endure. But two years later, two years after that fast, I think about putting myself in my mom's shoes now and thinking, wow, I fasted and it took two years for something to happen. But when I was 16, I found out through a series of events who my dad was. And my dad happened to be a faithful Latter-day Saint and he had married a wonderful woman and they had six children and they were residing in Utah. I was living in Washington at the time.

I couldn't believe that he would be willing to put his reputation on the line to come into my life. Because you can imagine telling people in your ward, oh, I found out I have this 16 year old daughter from before I was married. He didn't care about that. He really wanted to do the right thing. He wanted to do right by me. And seeing the things that he was willing to do for me opened me up for the first time in a long, long time to God and to God being real and to God's love. And my dad spoke so openly about his faith. So did my stepmom. They were amazing examples to me. I started to think maybe there's something to this God stuff. Maybe God is real after all, because it was this miraculous event for my dad.

I grew up without a dad entirely, but then all of a sudden this man, my dad, came into my life. He cared about me. He wanted to be involved in my life. It completely changed my worldview. It made me see things through the lens of maybe there is a God. I decided for myself, nobody told me to do this, I decided that I was going to pray and that I was going to find out if God was real. And I got a very real answer to that prayer. And the light began to enter into my life. Just like we see in Helaman with Nephi and Lehi how they were encircled about with fire. I was encircled about with fire symbolically and it burst the cloud of darkness that had been completely clouding my life.

From then on, I told God that if he showed himself to me and that he was real, I would devote my life to him, and I have. But I gave my mom a really good scare, and the people in my life that loved me, my family, they were so worried about me for really good reason, for really good reason. But I have to say a couple of things. The first is that there were certain people that never gave up on me. No matter what I was wearing, no matter how I was speaking, no matter what I was doing with my life, they loved me unconditionally. I had family that did that for me and friends. And then there were others that treated me differently. I knew that they didn't love me and they didn't care.

I also had different leaders that had different approaches with me. I had one leader, an incredible leader that would come and pick me up because she knew my mom couldn't give me a ride. She would come and pick me up and take me to Young Women's. And it was the only reason why I went. I went to Young Women's for one year and it was the year that that leader was in my life before we moved. And that was incredible that she did that. She didn't judge. She didn't say anything about what I was wearing. She didn't say anything about what I was wearing. She didn't say anything about what I was doing.

She picked me up and loved me. And that meant so much because it's a simple thing. I didn't have a ride, but she was willing to give me a ride. And I had other people that treated me like a project. They didn't make the time. They just dropped the thing off on the porch and left. And I don't want to give anyone any guilt trips here because I have done the same thing. It's so much easier to drop something off on a porch than it is to actually knock on

the door and come empty handed, but with a full heart. It's perfectly fine to show up to somebody's house empty handed, but with a full heart because they will know if you love them, if you care about them, the way that you look at them, the way that you make eye contact with them, the way that you reach out to them. Those things communicate, I love you. My advice is that you can never go wrong with love. You can never go wrong with warmth.

If people are coming back and they're not feeling the love of the Savior, then we're not doing it right. It's not just about filling our seats. It's about filling the hearts of the people that come to sit in those seats. We have to share love or we're doing it wrong. The final thing I'll say from my experience that I hope that people can draw and that we also learn from Helaman, never give up on people. Never give up on them. The Lord never gives up on us and the certain people in my life that I knew never gave up on me.

I want to be that kind of person for other people. I want to always believe in people. I want to love them the same as whether they're a member of the church, not a member of the church, whether they're a dissenter, Nephite, Lamanite, whatever it is, whatever distinction it is. In the end, we are all children of God and it's our responsibility to treat each other that way. And the only thing that brings people back, it's not guilt, the only thing that will really bring people back,

this leads us right into Helaman 512, is bringing people to their Savior through the love of God, bringing them to the rock. That's the only way. And that's the only way to keep our youth strong. And it's the only way to really bring people back and to steady them, to steady them in the faith is to share our love with them

and open up our hearts to them in a way that is completely genuine and real. I noticed this for the first time when I was reading this with my family last year. I had never noticed this great coming back that is talked about where they start preaching to the dissenters right before these events happen where Christ comes and there's this great coming back. I had never noticed that before. It gave me so much hope, but that tells me that we have a unique ministry in the last

days not just to gather Israel for those who have never been a member, but we have a ministry among the dissenters. That word seems kind of harsh, but just to use the Book of Mormon language here. But we have a ministry with our loved ones who have left. I would say don't discount the angels that God will send. I want to use this analogy here in Helaman where we have Nephi and Lehi in the fire. Nephi and Lehi, as they're in the prison, but they're in the right place at the right time.

God needs them there. So even though what got them in the right place at the right time was not necessarily favorable, they're in the prison right where the Lord needs them. So he situated them there. And verse 27 here in chapter 5, And behold, they that were in prison were Lamanites and Nephites who were dissenters." Here's where I talked about we have this great discourse on dissenters, like how to handle people who have left the church. Here comes the spiritual analogy. Then it says they were overshadowed by a cloud of darkness.

And we can see that in our loved ones. And I've experienced that. I've experienced many clouds of darkness, even since my conversion. But this is the part that I think is really, really cool. I want to go back up to the part about the Holy Ghost in a minute, but down here in verse 36, it says that there's, let's see, oh no, verse 35. There was one among them who was a Nephite by birth who had once belonged to the Church of God, but had descended from them. And it came to pass that he turned him about, and this is while the cloud is over them,

and everyone is afraid in the prison, and Nephi and Lehi are encircled about by fire. And it says, He saw this Nephi by birth, who's descended. He saw through the cloud of darkness the faces of Nephi and Lehi, and behold, they did shine exceedingly, even as the face of angels. I would say, don't discount the angels that the Lord will send into the life of the people that you love who have left the church. And don't be afraid to be somebody's angel. My grandma and grandpa were converts to the church and some of their children stayed strong in the faith, but a lot of them ended up leaving the church. One of them had a daughter, my cousin, and wonderful, wonderful human who she's died of cystic fibrosis a couple of

years ago. But while I was visiting them, me and my aunt decided to go to the ward, to my aunt's ward. And while we were there, we gave their name and number to the Relief Society president so that the Relief Society president would know, hey, you actually have a member here in your ward that you may not know about. We gave them their information. This is, but my cousin was not a baptized member, never been a member. But they assigned my aunt a ministering sister. At the time, there was still visiting teaching. They assigned her a visiting teacher. Her name was Mary Stark. And this visiting teacher was the bravest angel you have ever known. She started going over there and she would come over with the bread, knock on the door, invite herself in. She would

come over so frequently that my aunt and her husband, my uncle, would let her in. She made friends with them. She invited my cousin to start going to the singles ward in that area and my cousin started attending the singles ward even though she wasn't a member. This angel in our family, she's an absolute angel to us, was going into this home where other people may not have gone, but she was brave and she did it. And she did it with love, with genuine care. She really cared about my aunt and my cousin. My cousin started to feel something different. She noticed that the people in the

singles ward where she was going were light and they had purpose and they had direction in their life and then she compared them to her other friends who had bad habits and who didn't kind of aimless. And she could just see the light versus the dark in this contrast. My cousin ended up getting baptized because of the good work of this ministering sister. I'm a member of the church, but I realized I couldn't have been the one to do this.

Neither were any of the cousins or aunts or uncles in a position that we could bring back and bring my cousin into the faith. We had tried. We've been good examples. But it was the love of a ministering sister that had brought my cousin into the faith. And I will always be indebted to Mary Stark. She's an incredible woman and I've always thought she was doing ministering before it was the higher and holier way when it was visiting teaching. She was doing that. Don't discount the angels that will be sent into the lives of your loved ones. Wow. Do you know what I love about this story that you just told too is that a Minidab who was at the center,

who was out of the church, knew exactly what to do. He knew the gospel enough, he knew it so well that in verse 40, which I've always loved because there's a lot of people that might not have a physical cloud of darkness, but they might have an emotional one that is so real, it feels like a physical cloud of darkness. And they asked that question, how do I get this cloud of darkness removed from me? A minidab, and if you'll both look at me and those who are watching on video, when I talk about a minidabab I always do this minidab like that I believe he invented the dab but a minidab look at this the doctrine of Christ repent cry into the voice until you shall have faith in Christ which

was taught unto you by Alma the younger amulek living beneath his privileges, and Ziezram the questioning lawyer. All three of those guys had an interesting past. I love that. Dissenters, yeah. We see in verse 43, Nephi and Lehi, the prophets that are encircled by fire, amazing fire in light that was encircling the prophets. It wasn't just for the prophets. We see in 43, that behold, we saw that they were encircled about, yea, every soul by a pillar of fire. This pillar of fire, this incredible witness isn't just for the prophets and apostles. We can have those same witnesses and that same light in our life.

Coming up in part two of this episode. I think of an experience I had at Bear Lake with my family. We got there, the weather was great, the forecast was wonderful. We set up our tent and we didn't stake it down because the forecast was fine. We thought we would be okay and we were in a rush to go play in the water. While we were down and playing in the water, this storm came literally out of nowhere.