Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Helaman 13-16 Part 1 • Sister Sheri Dew • September 9-15 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: September 4, 2024

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Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith, I'm your host, and I'm here with my co-host John, by the way, who I describe as firm and steadfast in the faith. John, that's Helaman 15.8. Now John, I know there's one name that comes up for these last few chapters of Helaman, and that is Samuel the Lamanite. John, what are you looking forward to? The thing that's so unique about this is we know there's a time when the Lamanites are

righteous and the Nephites are wicked, and that goes back and forth, but this is the only recorded sermon of a Lamanite. What's he going to say? And the prophecies are so specific and so good. John, we're honored today to be joined by our friend, Sister Sherry Dew. Sherry, as you've looked at these last few chapters of Helaman, what are we going to do today? What do you want our listeners to see?

Great to be with you too. Thanks for the invitation. Let me frame the way I look at these, if I could, with a little experience I had as a sophomore in high school. Picture being raised on a big, big farm in the Midwest, going to a little teeny branch. We didn't have seminary and one day, and it must have been in August, I'm out in the front yard shooting hoops. In drives a car, never seen this car before. A tall lanky guy gets out and he walks over and he said, are you Sherry? I said, yeah. Is your dad home? No, my dad was the branch president. I said, no, my dad's not

home right now. And he said, well, can I play basketball with you? And I'm looking at this guy going, who are you? And then he said, I bet I can beat you in a game of horse. And I said, I'm sure you can't. I'm a cocky, reasonably talented basketball player in the state of Kansas. Really? Some skinny guy's going to come and beat me in a game of horse. He whipped me. This guy was, he had been sent out from CES to be the first home study seminary coordinator for all of Western Kansas, and here he had driven into our yard to meet my dad, the branch president. He became such a guiding star for me. He was a fabulous, shout out to seminary teachers. He was a fabulous teacher of the scriptures. I can still remember how he taught certain

scriptural accounts and stories. I always loved the scriptures, but I didn't really know what to do with them. Boy, he opened them to me. And I still remember when we studied Helaman and the first few chapters of 3rd Nephi, he said, you pay attention to these. These are the chapters that are depicting what happened before the Savior came. We'll probably experience the same things before He comes again. These are very relevant to us. So for me, when I'm reading Helaman and these first chapters that will follow in 3rd Nephi, I'm thinking, okay, what were they experiencing?

What can we learn about that? And some of it you can see happening already. There's something really crucial in reading the scriptures, not only for what we can learn from ancient prophets, but also to say, okay, how does this apply to me? The context here is really fun to evaluate in the sense of saying, hmm, what do I see happening in the world today that we're all dealing with that actually very much mirrors exactly what was happening to the Nephites and the Lamanites at that time? I don't think anything could fit better. Just before the Savior comes, we have a prophet in the land. Now, John, I'm guessing most of our listeners know who Sherry is, but there might be someone who, I don't know, joined the church last week.

I love that she told a basketball story. I was at some sort of a Deseret book planning meeting up in the mountains. Somebody had a football and I'm out throwing it and here comes Sherry. And she's like, throw me that thing. And Sherry's chucking the football around. And I was like, whoa. And she said like, throw me that thing. And Sherry's chucking the football around. And I was like, whoa. And she said, I was all state basketball in Kansas. That is so cool.

So I'm really glad you told that story. I have a brief bio from the back of the book, Prophets Can See Around Corners, which is relatively new. And one of the reasons we wanted Sherry to be here. Sherry Dew is a native of Ulysses, Kansas, a graduate of Brigham Young University. She's written a number of books, including biographical works on three presidents of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Presidents Russell M. Nelson, Gordon B. Hinckley, and Ezra Taft Benson.

She served from 1997 to 2002 as second counselor in a Relief Society general presidency and is executive vice president and chief content officer of Deseret Management Corporation. And it was Sherry who took a chance on me back in, Hank, I'm not sure if you were born yet, 1994. And I will always be grateful to my friend Sherry for coming down and saying, who are you and what else you got? Twisted his arm, twisted it really, really hard. John, you talked about prophets see around corners.

I'm looking on Amazon and I know John, you're moved by reviews. Listen to a couple of these. Larissa wrote, Sherry Do breaks down the reasoning as well as the facts behind the title of this book in a way that is engrossing. You feel as if you're sitting in a room chatting with a dear and brilliant friend. There's so much good information in this book, but you won't feel overwhelmed. Instead you'll feel uplifted and have a clear understanding of what she presents.

Marin Chekets. This is one of the most well-written books I've ever read. I couldn't put it down. Already having a deep love and appreciation for past and living prophets, I can honestly say I am forever changed after reading this book. You're not gonna read any of the bad ones just to give it balance? There aren't any, to be honest. We hope everyone will go out and get a copy of Prophets See Around Corners. As we read that bio, you could see Sherry's had a rare front row seat being a biographer for three presidents. That's why it's so fascinating. You find out how hard these brethren have worked, how much they have given.

We see a talk in conference and an article here and there, but Sherry's had an unprecedented view of all this. Excellent. Sherry, I'm going to read from the Come Follow Me manual, and then we're going to hand the reins over to you. I'm excited to see where we go. The title of this week's lesson, Glad Tidings of Great Joy. The lesson begins, by the way, Glad Tidings of Great Joy. The lesson begins, by the way, in the manual on September the 9th. That's the opening day of the manual and that's a significant day for the Church. We'll talk about that.

The first time Samuel the Lamanite tried to share glad tidings in Zarahemla, he was rejected and cast out by hard-hearted Nephites. You might say it was if they had built an impenetrable wall around their hearts that prevented them from receiving Samuel's message. Samuel understood the importance of the message he bore and demonstrated faith by following God's commandment that he should return again and prophesy. Like Samuel, we all encounter walls as we prepare the way of the Lord and strive to follow his prophets. And like Samuel, we prepare the way of the Lord and strive to follow his prophets. Like Samuel, we too bear witness of Jesus Christ, who surely shall come and invite all to believe on his name. Not everyone will listen, and some may actively oppose us. But those who believe in this

message with faith in Christ find that it is truly a message of glad tidings of great joy. With that, Sheri, what do you want to do? How do you want to take on these chapters and this topic? That's a great introduction, Hank. And I want to build on something you just said and something that John said. Sometimes I do have to pinch myself about the privilege I've had of having lots of one-on-one conversations with various presence of the church. The kinds of conversations where you pretty much can ask whatever you want to ask. Yesterday I was in a setting where some people were asking me some questions, and one of

the questions they asked me was, if the members of the church could know anything about the prophets, what would you have them know? Well, that's such a wide-open question. You could go a million directions. But as a starting point, I wish they would know that when you look back at their lives and study their lives, all of the dots connect. You can see in retrospect, I doubt they could see it as it was happening, but in retrospect, you can see that the Lord has had them in His care and keeping from day one. Now, granted, they've had their agency, they've made decisions, how are they going to handle things? Are they going to get an education? What kind of education? Who are they going to marry? How many children do they decide with their wife to have? And

on and on and on. But you see the Lord as their tutor, and you see them being in the place in the very hours. One way we could look at that very recently is to say, do you think it was just this amazing stroke of luck that when a worldwide pandemic hit in 2020 that the president of the church not just had a medical background, he was a world-famous surgeon who could read all the literature and listen to all of the conversation. Nobody really knew what was happening, but whatever was being produced or discussed, he could immediately understand it and understand its impact and surely be in immediate position to have instincts about, okay, how do we handle this?

How does it affect our missionaries? Temple attendance, church attendance, and on and on and on. It's amazing to study their lives and to watch the Lord tutor them and get them ready for the hour when they are ordained a prophet, seer, and revelator. And then if they become president of the church, today they become the senior apostle. It's an amazing thing. Yes, I think as you study their lives, they look better. They look even better than you hope they will. You can see the Lord's hands. Now, in this situation, Samuel of Lamanite, this is one of the dramatic moments of the Book of Mormon. Let's's remind everybody, set the stage.

This says the Nephites are in great wickedness and that the Lamanites observed strictly to keep the commandments of God. And it's just six years until the Savior is born. Hence a reflection on what my seminary teacher so many years ago said is pay attention to what was happening then because there are things to learn that will apply today. Into this situation, here comes this Lamanite prophet. What do we know about him? Not much. The Book of Mormon doesn't give us his background, really. We can speculate, where could he have come from? Well, I guess he could have been one of those 8,000 Lamanites converted by Nephi and Lehi in the land of Zarahamn. He could have been one of

those. He could have been one of the 300 Lamanites converted after witnessing God save Lehi and Nephi in that prison, the Lamanite prison. So he could have been one of them. He could have been one of those converted by one of the 300 that were converted. But we don't actually know. We don't know really anything about him. So, here he comes. We can only speculate that Nephites didn't know anything about him either. Here, this courageous Lamanite prophet comes to Zarahemla to teach the gospel, and we learn that he preaches repentance for many days and the people don't like it. They cast him out. They do not like hearing about their sins, especially from a Lamanite.

The ultimate night. Talk about adding insult to injury. He's ready to leave. He said, the cost-benefit ratio here is not great. I'm going to go try another city. The voice of the Lord comes to him and tells him to return and prophesy whatsoever things should come into his heart. I want to say something about that in a second. But let's pause for a minute and say, how do you think he felt? Can't you imagine he's just thinking, oh, seriously? Why am I going back? Freeze frame. How many times has the spirit prompted you to do something you didn't want to do? Or the spirit told

you something you didn't want particularly to hear. I'm trying to think of it in that context that he's thinking this is a lost cause and now he says he's going to prophesy. He's supposed to prophesy whatsoever things come to his heart. The Spirit tells him to go back, the Nephites won't let him in. So here comes this great dramatic moment when he gets on the wall. Let's read 3, 4, and 5. Matthew 18, verse 3, 4, and 5. Heal him in 13, 3, 4, 5. But behold, the voice of the Lord came unto him that he should return again and prophesy unto the people whatsoever things should come into his heart."

Real quick, Sherry, I love the way you personalized or humanized, I guess is the word, Samuel, as if prophets are machines that, okay, I'll turn around, but I like, there's Sam going, really? Okay, let's go back. This is verse 4. And it came to pass that they would not suffer, that he should enter into the city. Therefore he went and got upon the wall thereof, and stretched forth his hand, and cried with a loud voice, and prophesied unto the people whatsoever things the Lord put into his heart. And he said unto them, Behold, I, Samuel, a Lamanite, do speak the words of the Lord, which he doth put into my heart. And behold, he hath put it into my heart to say unto this people, that the sword of justice hangeth over this people. And four hundred years pass not away, save

the sword of justice falleth upon this people." One of the things that's interesting to me in those three verses is writing is so hard for me that any time I think of what it took for them to record anything, when you see repetition, you have to think, they must have felt strongly about this. In three verses in a row, it says that he was to teach whatsoever things should come into his heart. Why do you think that repetition? And why do you think it doesn't say that he should prophesy whatsoever things came into his mind? Any thoughts about that? It sure tells us he's being inspired. It's more than intellectual exercise. Yeah, you

know, I think I know what these people need. Instead, it's God is putting something in my heart and here it comes. It doesn't sound like it's very, what was the heralby-ly thing, rather than preparing a speech, prepare yourself to speak. I'm going to say whatever I get here. I love the distinction you made because I think it's so true. I absolutely believe this is characteristic of prophets, that this isn't, oh, I'm going to give you an intellectual recitation of all the stuff I know about this. They are absolutely trying to, in any setting, they could be talking to a group in Bolivia or to general conference and trying to say, what does the Lord want me to say at this moment? I wonder if this is one of the clues we get in the Book of Mormon about how the Spirit speaks to us. If you are ever sitting in a Q&A where a general authority is answering

questions, you can be sure somebody's going to say, I can't tell if I can understand the Spirit. Can you tell me how to do this? How do I know if I'm making up stuff in my head or if I'm actually being inspired? When I look at the repetition three times about prophesying whatsoever things would come into his heart, I think it's a clue in the Book of Mormon about how the Spirit speaks to us. And it reminds me of this verse in the Doctrine and Covenants, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart by the Holy Ghost. Now, this is the Spirit of Revelation. That's an important distinction for us to try to understand as all of us try to get better at speaking the language of

revelation. And that is, I think the spirit tries to speak to hearts and minds because you actually can't convince yourself in your mind of something that doesn't feel right in your heart. You can try. You can try to talk yourself into it for days or weeks or months or years, but at some point you have to say, you know, that doesn't feel right to me. Mind and heart. It'll make sense and it'll feel right. Feel right. As you asked that question, Sheri, I thought of this is way back in the 1900s. I'm listening to General Conference and President Hinckley said, Brothers and sisters, I have a confession to make. I sat up like, hmm? And then I still remember it. Brothers and sisters, I have a confession to make.

It is this, I love you. Whatsoever thing shall come into his heart, this comes from a caring heart. I love that. I had forgotten about that, but you're saying it makes me remember that moment. Yeah, that was an interesting moment. And a little uncharacteristic of him, that was a little different than he usually expressed himself. Right off the bat here, there's a nice message to say, when we talk about learning how to decipher and understand the promptings of the Spirit, how

to speak the language of revelation, it's both an intellectual and a heart thing. For me, it is the, does that feel right that puts the capstone on it? I can reason it out, but if it still doesn't feel right, you go, yeah, I don't know, there's something about that that bugs me. I can't quite pinpoint what bugs me, but it doesn't feel right to me. The Spirit tells Samuel, go back, preach. He's preaching what comes into his heart. None of this made sense. In fact, when you think, okay, go back to the city, and again, maybe he jumped right on that and said, oh, okay, I'm charging back. But a more natural human reaction would be, oh, wow, I don't even know what to do with that. Then he jumps on the wall and he starts

to preach. I tried to think about a current day comparison. One of them might be President Nelson making such a point early in his administration about using the correct name of the church. Samuel could have thought, okay, this isn't even possible. President Nelson could have thought, this isn't even impossible. In fact, everybody told him it wasn't possible. They say, listen, it's too long. We as a church have used Mormon Tabernacle Choir, the Mormon Church, the Mormon Channel.

We could go on and on. We've used it too long. We'll lose SEO authority. It'll be gone. Nobody will take us seriously. The name of the church is too long. We'll be mocked. It won't happen.

President Nelson says, well, the Lord's made it clear to him that we needed to identify the church as the Lord's church. We just need to do it. The chips fall where they may, so to speak. And look at the progress that's been made in just a few years. It's not perfect. Everybody doesn't use the name correctly, but a lot of people do, including friends of other faiths, organizational names have changed, domain names have changed. There are a legion of stories now about people who have actually been drawn to or open to learning more about the church because it has the Savior's name in it. What Samuel was asked to do didn't look even possible. What President Nelson was asked to do didn't look possible, and they did it.

It says in verse two, he was about to return to his own land. So I wonder if prophets get counsel like that and go, well, maybe you're right. But the voice of the Lord comes and says, this is what we're doing. All right, I'll get on that wall. I don't know if the response is going to be great, but I'll get on that wall. Yeah, and think about, how did you even think about that? Well, they won't let me in. I guess I'll get on the wall. Like, how do you get on the wall? And then in verse four, they would not let him in. They would not suffer. He should enter into the city. So again, you can imagine, I tried, they won't let me in.

But let's see, how else can I do this? You know, this reminds me of this kind of out there, but four men brought in a bed, a man who was taken with the palsy and they could not get in because of the press. So they said, Oh, well, and went home. Wrong. They said, anybody have any ideas? I know, let's go on the roof and make a hole in the roof and lower him. And you can imagine the guy with the palsy going, I don't think that's a great idea. But they do it. So it was once the Lord tells you what to do, figure that's kind of a Nephi thing. You broke your bow, what am I going to do? Well, I'll make another one. You know that statement you've heard President Nelson make all the time, which is, the Lord

uses the unlikely to accomplish the impossible. You can say that about those lifting the man with the palsy. You can say that about Samuel. Kind of unlikely, really? How did he even get on a wall? There surely had guards. What are even the logistics of that? And again, President Nelson in the name of the church, he would say, the Lord used

the unlikely to accomplish the impossible. I think he would use that referring to himself to say, yeah, it's too late, it's not going to work. Well, actually, it is working. It's in the process of working. It'll take many more years, but it's in the process of working. I like what you said, John, that says, yeah, the Lord speaks and that is a characteristic of prophets. The Lord speaks, they do it. They figure out how to do it. I whine about it and mope around about it until I finally convince myself, come on, Sherry, get with the program here. But I think we don't see that. I think we see a more immediate response when it comes to prophets.

06 I saw a video in Book of Mormon Central, which was fascinating to me. Somebody said to me, hey, you better be careful because in 400 years, I would be going, well, I'm not going to be alive. What do I care? Yeah. One school of thought is they're thinking about them as a people and that hits them personally because it's them as a people. That's one school of thought. Another is the word boctoon is a word that means 400 years. The word hotun means five years and that's coming up. That was on Book of Mormon Central. So when one boctoon, the sword of justice is going to fall upon this people.

Interesting. Yeah, that's cool, John. Why would you care about something 400 years later? Yeah, I've wondered the same thing. It doesn't feel like a big threat. Samuel, his prophecies are pretty stark. He's going to get pretty direct here. But you could say to yourself, yeah, well, I'm going to die in 30 years, so I'm not worrying

about that. One of the things these early verses, I think, underscore is, again, just thinking about what Samuel did, the Lord's ways aren't man's ways. We hear that phrase all the time, but we shouldn't gloss over it like it's a slogan or something. It also means today that a prophet's ways are not always what everyone on Facebook thinks it should be. I mean, can you imagine what YouTube influencers, they would have been howling at Samuel up on the wall. Like some were howling at President Nelson and making fun of him when there were those who said something to this effect that, why are we

making such a big deal about the name of the church? Why are we spending so much time and energy and money? Why does this keep coming up? And the Lord's ways are not man's ways. That's back to the unlikely accomplishes the impossible. How do you know that the name of the church won't have significant impact in the future? I have a tendency to think the Lord knows what he's doing and he will use something like that

that may be unlikely to do something great, a small and simple thing. Danielle Sometimes when I'm talking to someone who is just not sure they are buying the whole notion of prophets, because they didn't like that prophets here in Revelator said this or that or this or that. We can say more about that in a minute when we read some of these verses about prophets. If you believe the Lord is actually speaking to us prophet, and again, everybody doesn't believe that, but if you buy that and you don't like something a prophet said, what I will say to somebody is, well, do you think the Lord is smarter than you are? Sometimes that will catch somebody up short a little bit to say, well, yeah, of course I think that the Lord Jesus Christ or God the Father,

of course they're smarter. Okay, if you think they're actually smarter than you are, and they're sure smarter than I am, the thing is to say, do you believe the linkage between God the Father and his son Jesus Christ and the prophet? That's the question. Do you really believe they're being led and directed? And that's what each one of us have to get a testimony of in our own hearts. You can hear a million talks about that from the pulpit and you can reason it through the best you can and lay a foundation for prophets. But the spirit has to tell you, and by the way, the spirit will. In my view, I think that is a prayer that gets answered pretty fast. Meaning, if someone is intent on knowing if a prophet is a prophet, was Joseph Smith a

prophet? Is President Nelson a prophet? I think that's a prayer that will get answered. You might have to work at it for a little bit, but I think the Spirit is eager to confirm that truth. Back to Samuel, he's now going to make some pretty strong prophecies, and his message appears to have about four purposes. I'd love for you two to jump in if you think I've missed something here. Number one, he wants the Nephites to know what's going to happen to them, the judgments of God, if you will, if they don't repent. He wants them to know how to repent, the conditions of repentance, what that means. Then He's going to teach them that Jesus Christ is coming.

He's going to come. And He wants to tell them the signs of His coming. He's also going to tell them the signs of what happens when He atones. His prophecies are amazing. Is there anything that doesn't fit in one of those general areas? Jared I had a friend who asked me, so you've been teaching a Book of Mormon class? Yeah, how long you been doing that? And I told him and he said, it was a great question. What one thing has stood out to you? You know, one of those great inquisitive questions. This is what I told him and it took me a day. The next time I saw him, I

said, you know what stood out to me? First principles. And today I would say the doctrine of Christ. Look in verse six there. Nothing will save this people, save it be repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. If you do that Elder Bednar recommendation, take another Book of Mormon, a new one, and look for faith in Christ and repentance, it's astonishing how often the doctrine of Christ shows up over and over again. He's telling him right first, this will save the people before the prophecies. Faith in Christ and repentance. And today I think we're hearing it more characterized

as the doctrine of Christ. Would you say that's true? I think we're understanding what the doctrine of Christ is better than we have before. Yeah, I know Preach My Gospel talks about it a lot more. It's basically some article of faith number four. Absolutely. I'm using the old paper copy of the scriptures and I've highlighted the word repent or repentance or repenteth in yellow and it is everywhere. Going down, this is the message of Samuel. Repent. I like your four main highlights there, Sherri. One that stood out to me that's really not a main one, but is kind of under those is the danger of treasure. They have become obsessed with money and riches and things. And he says, you don't remember

the Lord, but wow, you remember your money. We ought to talk about that for a second because I hadn't noticed this before, but this time going through these chapters, it's interesting to see in connection between riches and stoning prophets. And I had never thought about it in that context. But maybe before we do, let's review for everyone following along in their scriptures and maybe in their Come Follow Me manual some of what Samuel had to say because his prophecies were stark. I mean, think about it. He says, okay, the sword of justice hangs over the Nephites that in 400 years, and there is that time thing to say, well, how much do I care about that? But in 400 years, and there is that time thing to say, well, how much do I care about that? But in 400 years, the sword's going to fall, heavy destruction

awaits them, repeatedly, to your point, Hank, the only thing that will save them is repentance and faith. And he says more than once that an angel has told him all of this and that all of these things are glad tidings that he was saying to the Nephites to express these glad tidings, which sound like really fierce warnings. How do you figure that out that this is really going to be bad on you and these are happy tidings, glad tidings? How do you think about that? I went through the Book of Mormon once looking for glad tidings because I wanted to see how often it was referring to Christmas or the birth of Christ, because that's a phrase we

get in Luke. Actually, Luke says, good tidings of great joy, but other places say glad tidings. I'm intrigued with the idea that gospel also means good news and that tidings just means news. It almost always is positive news in the scriptures. The thing that I loved about it was, understood correctly, the gospel is the greatest news possible. There's hope, there's redemption, there's salvation. This should be the happiest message we could possibly have that's glad tidings and oddly People don't accept it maybe because it requires repentance or change

Those are my thoughts when Alma talked to Corianton. He said you were supposed to be out declaring glad tidings So it comes up in lots of places. I was just reading earlier this week It was me and my boys as we went verse by verse, he's pretty harsh at times to these people and Sarah Hemla, the things that he says, you're, in fact, one of my boys commented, he's kind of, he's kind of mean. And then right at the very end, he said, almost the verse 60 turns it around to a, isn't this wonderful moment? I say unto you that the good shepherd is calling after you. If you will hearken unto his voice, he will bring you into his fold. You're his sheep.

He wants you. He is pursuing you, as Elder Ciaran might say. Come and be baptized under repentance that you may be partakers of the fruit of the tree of life. It seems that this message of condemnation is, look at the way you're headed. This is awful. But isn't it good news that you can turn this around right now? Isn't that good news? Aren't you happy that you don't have to end up this way? You've hit on a nerve of something I've thought about a lot in the last little while. When we hear some of the senior leaders being soundly criticized because of some of the things that they teach and some of the recent criticism, it sounds like this.

Why do you have to keep telling us there's three degrees of glory? Don't we all get the trophy because we are all, we're on the soccer team? Why should there be these delineations between celestial, terrestrial, and telestial? Why are you asking as President Nelson to think celestial? Come on. Why do we have to think about it that way? And of course, there are those who love that talk and then it's those that are bugged by it. And I've found myself thinking and this goes away, you just said, Hank, well, would you rather he didn't tell you?

Would you rather get to the other side of the veil and find out the plan and how the Lord laid it out? And at that point, wouldn't you be saying, I sure wish somebody had told me the plan and the requirements and what's expected. And you may not like the plan and you may not like the requirements or what's expected, but I think a prophet when he is declaring as Samuel is what the deal is, he's doing what prophets do. And that is they lead people to Christ and they teach the truth and they talk about the Father's plan. They talk about the doctrine of Christ, which is all a fulfillment and how we fulfill and can succeed in the Father's plan.

Yeah. Look at verse seven. I have good news for you and you don't want it. Yeah. He would not receive my glad tidings. Yeah. Yeah. I have blessings for you. It's almost as if he's speaking for the Lord here. I have blessings for you. You just don't want them. You won't receive them. I like what Elder Jeffrey R. Holland said, repentance is perhaps the most hopeful word in the whole entire Christian vocabulary. The fact that we can repent. That's glad tidings right there. The fact that we can turn and that we can turn throughout our lives. That it's not a one-time thing, but we can keep course correcting. To use an aviation example, an airliner is off course most of the time, but it keeps turning back on course. I love that too. Hank, you said something a minute ago that made me think about this

series of verses in the 88th section of the Doctrine and Covenants where we learn about the celestial, terrestrial, and telestial kingdom and where then comes this chilling verse and it's what you just said about verse seven. It said, they shall return again to their own place to enjoy that which they are willing to receive because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received. For what does it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him and he received not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the

giver of the gift." Hank, is what you just said. I offered you these glad tidings, you said, yeah, no thanks. Not interested. Now, back to repentance and what you quoted from President Hall. And can I add to that this statement from President Nelson, this is from April of 2022, this is from April of 2022, please do not fear or delay repenting. Satan delights in your misery. Cut it short. Cast his influence out of your life.

Start today to experience the joy of putting off the natural man. The savior loves us always, but especially when we repent. That's quite a statement. If you feel you have strayed off the covenant path too far or too long and have no way to return, that simply is not true. From President Holland to President Nelson, some pretty strong encouragement about repenting, because as we go back to Samuel, the bottom line is he predicts all these horrible

things, a sword of justice and the heartness of the hearts of the people and the fierce anger the Lord has towards them and that he'll visit them in fierce anger. And you think, what would fierce anger from the Lord look like? That sounds like not a very fun day, but the remedy is repentance. That sounds like not a very fun day. But the remedy is repentance. It's repentance. Matthew 18.1 You brought up Samuel said, I'm going to speak what's in my heart. And then for the rest of 13, he talks about their hearts. Verse 12, your hearts are hardened against me. Verse

20, your hearts are upon riches. Happens again in 21. Your hearts are not drawn to the Lord. That's 22. You walk after the pride of your heart. In verse 27, got their attention with, the Lord has put some things in my heart to talk to you about your heart. And it sounds like his words are not getting down into their hearts. They're stopping at the mind. A hardened heart is rejecting it. Who are you to come and tell us we're doing something wrong? I had a friend this last week, Hillary, we were chatting and she said I used to struggle a little bit with what prophets said. Sometimes I'd go, oh I'd bristle at that and then one day I just decided, like you said, Sheri, they know what

they're talking about. So, I'm going to follow. No matter what it is, I'm going to follow. And that's repenting right there, that little shift in thinking that is repenting. Danielle Pletka I love that example, because repentance doesn't have to be this big thing sitting in front of the bishop. Usually, it isn't a big thing sitting in front of the bishop. Thank heavens it isn't a big thing sitting in front of the bishop. Thank heavens we have bishops and stake presence when we need their help to repent. Thank heavens. What a gift. I have assumed, I don't pretend to know, but I have assumed that one of the reasons President Nelson has repeatedly talked about repenting

and repenting daily is so it can be those kinds of little shifts. That little moment of, okay. Of recognition. Let's go back to what we were talking about a minute ago about riches. Because Samuel, he's talking about their hard hearts and the things that are causing them to resist his teachings or the teachings of the Lord that he's trying to teach. But then he comes to this one about love of riches.

Maybe we should just read 20, 21, and 22. Okay, Helaman 13, 20. And the day shall come that they shall hide up their treasures because they have set their hearts upon riches, and because they have set their hearts upon their riches, and will hide up their treasures when they shall flee before their enemies. Because they will not hide them up unto me, cursed be they, and also their treasures, and in that day shall they be smitten, saith the Lord." This is verse 21, Behold ye the people of this great city, and hearken unto my words, yea hearken unto the

words which the LORD saith. For behold, he saith that ye are cursed because of your riches, and also are your riches cursed because you have set your hearts upon them, and have not hearken unto the words of him who gave them unto you. Now verse 22, You do not remember the Lord your God in the things with which he hath blessed you, but ye do always remember your riches. Not to thank the Lord your God for them, yea your hearts are not drawn out into the Lord, but they do swell with great pride unto boasting and unto great swelling, envying,

strife, malice, persecutions, and murders, and all matter of iniquities." This is the first time I ever actually linked because it talks about it before and after this passage on prophets that we're coming to. It links riches and stoning prophets. What do you think they have to do with each other? And with these verses about riches, what grabs you, especially as you think about our world today? Love to know what you both think. My first thought here, Sheri, is the parable of the sower, where the Savior says, the seed

falls among good soil, but the weeds choke it. And what does he say the weeds are? Well, one of them is the deceitfulness of riches. It chokes the word. I have a testimony, I have good soil, but this love of money is choking out my testimony. It's hardening my heart. I don't know if either of you have read Lord of the Rings, but I turn into this golem creature who wants to protect my money. I will spurn at anything that gets close to my riches. I like that. John, anything to add? I like that just a few chapters ago in the Helaman 512, which we all know,

we're told to make Christ our foundation, to build our hearts, to set our hearts on Christ. And it seems when people do that, verse 22 says, it's the Lord that blessed them with the riches. But then they seem to want to change real estate. Oh, now let's build our hearts on our riches instead of on Christ. Suddenly they relocate, which is strange. Hank, I love what you said about the parable of the sower. I heard about this book somewhere and I went and found it. It was called Money for Nothing about people who won the lottery.

And roughly half of the chapters, people said they had won a million dollars and they said, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. A lot of them said, I made some investments, they went bad. I spend my life with lawyers and lawsuits now. And that's perhaps one way to think of how riches can be deceitful. If I had that, everything would be fine.

And at the same time, I know people and we know people who have been blessed abundantly, but they are still built on Christ. I know it's possible. He's telling him remember that God gave you that. There was a church news editorial that quoted a Canadian Red Cross brochure, and this is what it said, If you have food in your fridge, clothes on your back, a roof over your head, and a place to sleep, you are richer than 75% of the world. If you woke up this morning with more health than illness, you are more blessed than the million people who will not survive this week.

If you have never experienced the danger of battle, the agony of imprisonment or torture, or the horrible pains of starvation, you are luckier than 500 million people alive and suffering. of starvation. You are luckier than 500 million people alive and suffering. If you can read this message, you are more fortunate than 3 billion people in the world who cannot read at all." I like these verses. They sound like Thanksgiving verses almost because they're not remembering the Lord who blessed them with the riches. And I feel like gratitude is kind of a twin with humility, because when you realized that those things came from blessings, that you didn't do that yourself, that the Lord blessed you with that, gratitude and humility are like twins. They've left that behind now. They've set their hearts on their riches. Sherri, I'm fascinated with a new thought. Riches comes down to stoning

the profits, or it seems to lead to that. It was a new thought for me and a new linking for me. Both of you actually were going where I landed as I thought about it. I flipped back in my mind to Korahor. And remember how he's saying that, well, every man fares according to the management of the creature. What these verses are saying to me is, look, if you have wealth or high intellect or fame or celebrity or a claim of some kind, you can be tempted to think, well, I'm one of the gifted ones. How lucky am I?" In that sense, you're not thinking, God gave me everything I have. Everything, whether it's a physical asset or it's my health

or it's opportunity or it's people who have mentored me or helped me or whatever, that all came from him. It's flipping to me between, no, no, no, I did this all myself, pounding on the chest, as opposed to, I'm so grateful for these gifts God has given me, and what does he want me to do with them? As you go back to the Nephites, we can imagine now, if you think about their frame of mind, if it is, look, we have fared well because we're just smarter than the rest. We're just more talented than the rest. We're just more clever than the rest. Then you could be really annoyed by a prophet that is exposing your sins.

That's very Zoramite, isn't it? Totally. Yeah. Chosen. Remiemptum. Exactly. To me, what we're coming to now in chapter 13, there are so many great passages of scripture about prophets, but this is probably the most compelling, maybe, because of the way Samuel calls them out about how they treat the prophets. Even though it's a long passage,

I think we should read it or wonder if we could, like 24 through 29, what if we each took two verses? Matthew 18 You got it. Helaman 13, 24. Yea, woe unto this people, because of this time which has arrived, that you do cast out the prophets, and do mock them, and cast stones at them, and do slay them, and do all manner of iniquity unto them, even as they did of old time. And now when ye talk, ye say, If our days had been in the days of our fathers of old, we would not have slain the prophets. We would have not stoned them and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him. Yea, you will say that he is a false prophet and that he is a sinner and of

the devil because he testifies that your deeds are evil. But behold, if a man come among you and shall say, do this, and there is no iniquity, do that, and you shall not suffer, yea, he will say, walk after the pride of your own hearts, yea, walk after the pride of your eyes, and do whatsoever your heart desireth. If a man shall come among you and say this, you will receive him and say that he is a prophet." I mean, is he calling them out or what? Yea, he will lift him up. You will give unto him of your substance. You will give unto him of your gold and your silver. You will clothe him with costly apparel. And because he speaketh flattering words unto you, and he saith that all is well, ye will not find fault with him. O ye wicked and ye

perverse generation, ye hardened and ye stiff-necked people, how long will you suppose that the Lord will suffer you? Yea, how long will ye suffer yourselves to be led by foolish and blind guides? How long will ye choose darkness rather than light?" Now, there's a sermon. Wow. It is so latter days. In verse 27, I'm so glad I got to read that, Sheri. Thank you for asking me to read that one. Behold, if a man shall come among you and say, I have in my margin influencers. If an influencer comes and says, do this, do that, do whatever you want, you'll say, wow, that's so wise. That person's a prophet. The whole influencer thing is so interesting now it's part of our vocabulary that we say okay you can amass huge audiences because of all the technology that we all benefit from but man when influencers actually become the

people you're listening to above and beyond anyone else. I'm saying who you got to listen to. It's very nehor doctrine, isn't it? Yeah. Preach and teachers ought to become popular. The most popular doctrine should be true. That should be our test. There's a statement. We ought to cross-stitch that and put it on the wall.

What does mocking and casting out and stoning the prophets look like today? Yeah. The word internet comes right up in my mind. You can stone a prophet online and you can have much more influence among your friends and your family than you could have in the past. Yeah. You can say things when you're behind a screen name that you might never really say. It is making it, if we're not careful, a little easier to be rude. We're gonna hide behind a screen name

and say horrible, malicious things, and that's the world that we live in now. So I read this and I think, this is so latter day, 400 years. A couple of thousand years, this is where latter day, 400 years, a couple of thousand years this is where you're going to be. I call it the great and spacious Reddit with my students. Where they mock and point their fingers.

Yeah, you nailed that one. Boy, there's so many examples we could all quote, but I mentioned a little bit ago a brief reference to President Nelson's talk, Think Celestial. That came across to me as a, gee, think about where you want to end up and how do you get where you want to end up? And yet there was a fair amount of pushback from those who say, why do we always have to talk about that? You think about President Oaks speaking on the Constitution in general conference. Do you remember some of the backlash about that? Constitution of the country that is the headquarters of the church, that houses the headquarters of the church, and yet there are those who said, oh, why are we talking about the Constitution when this is an international

church? Why do we care about the US Constitution? Is President Hollen giving a talk at BYU three years ago? There was a about the mission of BYU and being blasted for different parts of the talk. Yes, we could go through a whole lot of examples, but it's kind of easy today to stone a prophet. You don't actually have to go outside and pick up a rock. You can sit and say, boy, I didn't like that. I'm going to tell you I didn't like it. And I'm going to tell it for all the world to see who wants to see it with the hope that maybe I can engender other people to my point of view. It's a different kind of stoning when you think about it because you're actually trying

to gather someone to your point of view and gather a bigger audience to have the same point of view. No, I want to silence that voice. That's what a stoning is. I happened to be reading the other day, once again, the Nephi's vision of our day when he wanted to see what his father had seen. This kind of thing should not surprise us, probably. It may discourage us a little, but it shouldn't surprise us. Because you remember that in his vision of our day,

when he's asked to see the vision his father had seen and then he saw a whole lot more, this is 1 Nephi 11 verse 35. It says, The multiple sort of the earth was gathered together, and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building like into the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again saying, Behold the world and the wisdom thereof, yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb. He saw it happening. And when we say, well, who's the house of Israel? President Nelson said it includes all who have made covenants with the Lord and who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Savior. He says this includes faithful Gentiles who have been grafted into the covenant family of Abraham. But one of

the things, of course, that we see happening today and want to try to help with is that the adversary can be pretty effective in some cases in deceiving some of even God's most valiant covenant children, convincing them to fight against or oppose or criticize those who have been given all priesthood keys, meaning the first presence in Quorum of the Twelve. But it probably shouldn't surprise us because even Nephi saw it, that this would come. It's the end. Yay, the House of Israel. The House of Israel has gathered. I remember Joseph McConkey pointing that out to us once and we all went, wait, what? The house of Israel is fighting against the 12?

Against the apostles. Yeah. Goes back to that verse about choosing darkness rather than light. And this is a strong passage about those who oppose prophets as I think we see. We see it everywhere. You see it throughout the book of Ether. You see it everywhere. Maybe we could talk for a minute about one of the narratives that we hear today. And one of the narratives is, well, are prophets perfect? Because I think they've made mistakes in the past. If they're not perfect, why should I listen to them? I know you two have had that question probably countless times from students.

How do you respond when they say, yeah, but are they perfect? And what if they've made mistakes before? That means they could be making mistakes now. So I think I'll pick and choose which parts that they say that I'll listen to. How do you handle this as you're teaching in particular young adults? I love the story in Matthew 14 of Jesus walking on water and then Peter walking on water. But then when Peter saw the wind boisterous, he began to sink. There's a beautiful Elder

Holland quote while he says, while his eyes were upon the Lord, the spray could drench his hair, could toss his robes, but all was well he was coming to Christ. It was only when he removed his glance from the Savior, only then did he begin to sink. And I think of the other things we can look at. And one place is, why don't you guys write a preface to the book of commandments? And the Lord, he says, because we're supposed to keep our eyes on Christ. He starts out section 67, your eyes have been upon Joseph. And his imperfections you have known, and his language you have known, but look at the revelations. There is no imperfection in them.

And if you follow them, you will see me. You're looking at the wrong things. If you want to find imperfections, big revelation, you will. But you're looking at the wrong things. That is one thing I like to share. The other is it's not looking at the servants of the Lord, but who is the Lord of those servants? Who are they trying to follow? Peter began to sink only when he took his eyes off Christ. The thing that we've all noticed is that Jesus was constantly correcting Peter. Was there anybody who got corrected that much? The question was not was Peter perfect. The question was who was teaching and tutoring Peter? That goes back to what I said in the very beginning that it's fascinating to look in

hindsight at a prophet's life and see who's been teaching him and now who's leading him in his ministry. That's what I like to look at. Of course, they're not perfect, but who are they looking to and who's tutoring them? You've probably seen the fighting preacher. The part that touched me so much is when these young missionaries knock on the door on their way home and they introduce themselves. This is Elder Crawford Gates and this is Elder Gordon Hinckley. And you see this young Gordon B Hinckley in the Sacred Grove. I love that part because I think the one who wrote the talk on like embrace the wrestle. And this is an important wrestling that everyone has to have. I love this thought

from Brigham Eel. He said, I admitted in my feelings and knew all the time that Joseph was a human being and subject to air. It was none of my business to look after his faults. It was not for me to question whether Joseph was dictated by the Lord at all times and under all circumstances or not. He was called of God, God dictated him, and if he had a mind to leave him to himself and let him commit an error, that was no business of mine. I like that attitude. I usually say to a student is it's really easy to pick on and bully someone who is dead. They're not here to defend themselves. It's easy to go through and pick out things they said and I can take it out of context. And then lastly I love the

story of Nephi when he breaks his bow and Lehi murmurs. And what does Nephi do? He supports him more, not less. If Nephi sees, you know, he's the one who wrote the story, he sees what Nephi sees as a mistake, but then he goes to Lehi and says, where should I go to obtain food? If I really think a prophet has made a mistake, it's my chance to support them more, has made a mistake. It's my chance to support them more, not less. 5. I like that a lot. This narrative that we sometimes hear today, our prophet's perfect, to me is the wrong question. 6. Right. Are they led by Christ? Who's leading them? Who are they trying to follow? 5. Right. I wonder if we have a misperception about what a prophet is,

and maybe it goes back to some statements that we've quoted forever. So, one of those would be, this one from Wilford Woodroof, we could probably all quote it from heart, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this church to lead you astray. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place. I wonder if a statement like that has been interpreted to mean sometimes that prophets never make mistakes. But President Woodruff didn't actually say that. I can't think of a single time when any prophet has claimed perfection. You've got Mormon and Moroni talking about, if there's any imperfections in this record, it's us. It's not the Lord, it's not God.

President Jeffrey R. Holland very recently in a social media post wrote this, he said, except for Jesus, there have been no flawless performances on this earthly journey we are pursuing. The bottom line is, are prophets perfect? No. Jesus Christ is the only perfect being who's walked the earth. But to me, again, that's the wrong question. We all know this statement. I've got to read it from Van Elderholland because I just think it's a classic. Brothers and sisters, this is a divine work in process, with the manifestations and blessings of it abounding in every direction, so please don't hyperventilate if from time to time issues arise that need to be examined, understood, and resolved.

They do, and they will. In this church, what we know will always trump what we do not know. And remember, in this world everyone is to walk by faith, except in the case of his only perfect begotten son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. That must be terribly frustrating to him, but he deals with it. So should we. And when you see imperfection, remember that the limitation is not in the divinity of the work, which matches Joseph Smith's statement, I never said I was perfect, but there is no error in the revelations which I have taught. That's what you said earlier, John. No, I don't think prophets are perfect. They too are having

a mortal experience. I ask you, who would you rather trust? Can you think of a celebrity, a Nobel Prize winner, a scholar, an expert, a journalist? Remember in the days when you're too young? When I was growing up, Walter Cronkite was voted the most trusted person in America. We can't even fathom that today, that a journalist would be voted the most trusted person in America. But can you think of a journalist, an influencer, a blogger, a chairman of the board, a president of a country? Can you think of anybody you would trust more than a prophet? A prophet of God who has been prepared by God and is being directed in this church by the Lord Jesus Christ, whose church it is. I think about this over and over and I think, okay, is there a more important voice of authority

in my life than a prophet of God? And I can't come up with anyone. And it's not that I love everything they say. Sometimes I have to think about something for a while to figure out how it works in my life, but I can't light upon any voice of authority that is more sound, is more inspired, is more directed, is more wanting to help me. What's in it for profits? They're not getting famous. They're sure not getting rich. They're working their hearts out until their bodies collapse. They're aging on stage. My goodness, the current first presidency, President Nelson is days away from turning 100. President Oaks just turned 92. I think President Eyring is 91. These men are going to the office every day. It's astonishing to think about. And Sherry, the Lord has also provided us with a prophet who counsels with 14 other prophets.

Who else would you rather trust? Fifteen men who've been given all the keys of the priesthood, whose job is to help us find the rod, hold onto the rod, with the hope that if we keep holding on, we'll get to the tree and we'll partake of the fruits of the atonement of Jesus Christ, who will help us keep little by little trying to get better and overcome the natural man and the natural woman. That's what they're trying to do. Help us find the rod and hang on to it, which leads us to Christ. That's their motive.

Again, think of any politician. What's their motive? They want your vote. Anybody trying to sell you something is trying to sell you something. Even influencers are trying to amass an audience so they can make money off of it. What other group of leaders, if you will, have a more pure motive? I can't come up on any, and I have felt that what President Woodruff is saying is that a prophet is not going to be allowed to lead the church down a side canyon that ends up being where the Lord doesn't ultimately want the church. Into apostasy. Two things, Sheri. One, you knew President Glee personally, wasn't he

in the office the week he passed away? He was working, I think you told me, on Wednesday? I'm pretty sure that he worked on Wednesday and then he died Sunday. Ninety-seven years old. And just working his heart out and President Nelson is a hundred years old and going to the office every day. And it looks from all the signs that we see that there's plenty of decisions still being made. It's only been what, two or three weeks since we learned that BYU is going to add a medical school. That's not a little decision.

That's a huge decision. When I went to the temple this week, I was delighted with some revisions to experience some refinements in the endowment. Loved them. Yeah, those are pretty crucial decisions being made with a First Presidency who amongst them have almost 300 years of living. Coming up in part two of this episode. I had an interesting experience many years ago. I was a young member of Barbara Winder's Relief Society General Board. This will really date me. I was in my early early 30s and I was called to her board and I went with her on an assignment. I think she could see that she had called somebody really

young who needed some individual tutoring.