Follow Him: A Come, Follow Me Podcast - Jacob 5-7 Part 2 • Dr. Matthew L. Bowen • April 8 - April 14 • Come Follow Me

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to part two with Dr. Matthew Bowen, Jacob chapters five through seven. So Matt, the second section, 15 through 28, if I'm looking at this chart that John showed us in the manual, it's the time of Christ. I've got lots of good fruit. Even the wild fruit is becoming good. You've got the Nephites and Lamanites, verse 25, part of the tree is good, part of the tree is bad. But I wanted to ask you about one part of this. Verse 21, the servant says, why did you put this particular tree in this terrible spot?

Starting point is 00:00:37 It's the poorest spot in all the vineyards. And the Lord responds with, counsel me not, I knew that it was a poor spot of ground. I like that. Counsel me not. I knew. What are you seeing there? Well, first of all, we wouldn't want to take a hard and fast stance on which parts of the world are poor spots of ground, but there are definitely spots that we might individually

Starting point is 00:01:02 think, hey, this is not a good spot of ground. I've had to struggle my entire life. At BYU Hawaii, we have students in great proportions from just about everywhere in the world. And one of the things that is really striking to me is that almost every one of them has a story of struggle about how they got to the point where they could come to BYU Hawaii and then they're getting here to BYU Hawaii. And it really has hammered home, because I think a lot about the whole grafting

Starting point is 00:01:38 process that is a part of this allegory, right? The Lord has got part of the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant was to scatter Israel throughout the entire world and now we've got Israel everywhere, even in the poor spots of ground. And then the Lord from wherever He's placed them, He'll bring them to Laie here and to help further prepare them for when they get grafted back in wherever the Lord is going to graft them in the future. We ask questions, mortal questions about, well, why is this such a, maybe for me, why has this been such a poor spot of ground? Why have I had to struggle so much in my life where I'm at.

Starting point is 00:02:25 But again, you know, verse 22, counsel me not, I knew that it was a poor spot of ground. We have to sometimes remember that Lord knows what He's doing. He knows, and this gets back to QB Brown's experience, He knows what He wants us to become. He knows what we need to be. As President Nelson has been teaching, we've been so focused on where am I going to end up, what kingdom am I going to be in, when really just as important is the issue of kind of person am I becoming, what body am I going to come forth with in the resurrection. That's going to be what we've become. Who are we going to live

Starting point is 00:03:01 with in eternity? When we start to think about it in those kinds of terms, I think it helps us to make better sense of, well, maybe I was in a poor spot of ground or I had struggles or difficulties in my life, but the Lord knows how to compensate us for blessings previously denied us. He knows when and how and where to dispense those blessings so that we do become what He intends us to become. And if we'll just open ourselves to that, and as President Nelson talks about, let God prevail in what He's trying to do with us. He'll lead us by the hand. He'll answer our prayers as he did with Abraham and get us where we need to go. I love it. John, you gave a talk once called Rough Start, Great Finish. And that seems to be

Starting point is 00:03:58 verse 22 and 23. This was a poor spot of ground, but look, it brought forth much fruit." Yeah, the B.H. Roberts story is in that talk and it is crazy where he started. He said at one point, I had to beat the dogs to the garbage. He was homeless elementary school kid. This reminds me of 2 Nephi 26, 24. He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world. If we're ever wondering about the Lord's motivations for anything that he does, that's the verse to go to. Because whatever he does, he always does it out of love. He's never motivated by selfish human types of motivation. It's always divine. Divine love is greater than human love and divine anger is different than human anger. It's never out of selfishness with him. So when

Starting point is 00:04:55 he's grieved in the allegory, that's coming from not a selfish place. It's grief for us. Pete Speaking of being grieved, Matt, this next section, 29 through, what'd you say, 49, 50, 51, this seems like the low spot. Matt Yeah, this is the low point and it even seems like the Lord's ready to give up Himself on the whole project. Even though He told the servant not to counsel him earlier, it's verse 50 where the servant says, and you can kind of imagine prophets in this role, but behold the servant said to the Lord, spare it a little longer. You know, Moses has to intervene like that a couple of times. You remember Abraham pleading with the Lord on behalf of the people in Sodom. But you wonder how much interceding

Starting point is 00:05:47 and pleading prophets, seers and revelators have done on our own behalf to give us more time to spare us a little longer. We'll get this done. There's a question that comes up a number of times, John, you probably have got it marked, but I count three, verse 41, what could I have done more? Verse 47, what could I have done more? Verse 49, what could I have done more? It almost seems like the Lord is saying, look, I gave you the best possible chance. And somehow you grasped defeat out of the jaws of victory like second Nephi 15 or Isaiah 5 is Isaiah's parable of a vineyard there he says second Nephi 15 verse 4 what could have been done more to my vineyard that I have not done in it it's almost the same question well did you

Starting point is 00:06:43 use a choice vine yeah I did well did you plant it in a fruitful hill? Yeah. Did you take the rocks out? Yeah, I even built a tower in the midst. And I think that's called an entrapment parable because he's asking, didn't I do everything? And the audience has to go, yeah, you did. And then he says, well, actually, you're the vineyard. That's you. Yeah. It's an entrapment parable like the parable of Nathan. You remember today that in 2 Samuel 12, he gets them to pass judgment on, they don't realize that they're passing judgment on themselves, but he's getting them to pass judgment on themselves.

Starting point is 00:07:15 Yeah. That's the thou art the man, right? Yeah. So Matt, what do you want us to see in this last section? How is the Lord going to save? What seemed unsavable? Pete We're familiar with scriptures where the Lord says He's going to hasten His work in its time. And that's sort of what happens here at the end. There's been a lot of this not succeeding, Him not getting what He's hoping to get from the natural tree, from the branches, from wherever they're at in the vineyard. But then he's able to press into service. You start in about verse 52, where they really start to get going again, and then he proposes

Starting point is 00:07:58 what needs to be done, what kind of graphs need to be carried out. And then I mentioned the again language, that they're going to do all these things again. We ought to pick it up in about verse 64 here. Wherefore dig about them and prune them and dung them once more. There's our three again for the last time for the end roth die and if it so be that these last grafts grow and bring forth natural fruit, then shall ye prepare the way for them that they may grow." That's what John the Baptist did before the coming of the Savior. That's what Joseph Smith and every prophet and everyone laboring

Starting point is 00:08:36 under the prophets have been doing for the second coming. "'And as they shall begin to grow, ye shall clear away the branches which bring forth bitter fruit according to the strength of the good and the size thereof. You shall not clear away the bad all at once, lest the roots thereof should be too strong for the graft. And the graft thereof shall perish." And I lose the trees of the vineyard. Sometimes people wonder, why don't we just baptize everybody that wants to be baptized right away? Because there are places in the world where in terms of sheer numbers, we could bring in all at once a lot more than we're doing, but there have to be things in place for us to grow the church the right way. There

Starting point is 00:09:18 has to be ability to have organizational structure, priesthood leadership, and a number of things have to be in place in order for healthy growth to take place. There's healthy growth and there's unhealthy growth. But it has to be growth the Lord's way. It can't be helter-skelter in terms of the way that the church and the kingdom grow. But that's true in our own lives as well. Sometimes we'd like on the individual level growth to happen, we'd like blessings to happen, and floods, but there has to be a healthy pacing to it. We need to all individually and collectively become who and what the Lord needs us to be. That's the goal here. It's not just a random gathering of everybody, and it's not just dump all the blessings on us at once and then see if we can make sense of it all

Starting point is 00:10:12 and make good on those blessings. They have to come decently and in order and the Lord's way. Pete Carefully, deliberately. Yeah, I like that. I noticed in this section, Matt, this is the only time he calls in help. Yeah, so he brings in and he tells the servant to go get other servants. Maybe if we could just jump down really quickly to verse 71, and the Lord of the vineyard said unto them, go to and labor in the vineyard with your might. For behold, this is the last time that I shall nourish my vineyard, for the end is nigh at hand and the season speedily cometh. And if ye labor with your might with me, ye shall have joy in the fruit which I shall

Starting point is 00:10:53 lay up unto myself against the time which will soon come." This might be an example in the Book of Mormon of a literary or linguistic phenomena called Apocoinu, and that's where a word or expression is shared by two clauses. So this with me, does that belong with, if you labor with your might, or does the with me here belong with ye shall have joy in the fruit, which I shall lay up? I think it's both. Yeah, it's going to say which direction. Love it, yeah.

Starting point is 00:11:21 Yep, if you labor with your might with me, with me, you shall have joy in the fruit, which I shall lay up. One of those beautiful vistas or nuggets within this text that's just sublime. That is, I noticed that they call the servants and you're hoping it's going to say they were amazing or they were an army, but it says they were few. Pete were few. Pete That's consistent with Nephi's vision, you remember? When he had the vision of the tree of life, he saw that the dominions of the saints upon the face of the earth, that they were small because of the wickedness of the great and abominable church. But Nephi

Starting point is 00:12:02 only also pointed out that they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God and great glory. It's never been about the numbers with the Lord. We see in the story of Gideon, he can empower 300 to do what tens of thousands could do. It's not about the numbers with the Lord. It's about having those who are willing to be armed with righteousness, who keep their covenants so that as President Nelson says, they have access to the Lord's power. Because if it doesn't matter, it's not a numbers game, if the servants have access to the Lord's power, they're going to be able to do everything required.

Starting point is 00:12:42 What you just said about having joy with me, so if you labor with me, you'll have joy with me. My mind went to section 18. How great shall be your joy. With them in the kingdom of my father. Ooh, that's really good! With them! With them. I love that. Yeah, that's really nice. I looked for the footnote, but it wasn't there. I thought, oh, I bet they put D and C 18 there. No, it's not there. And we should probably not miss the oneness language, which again reminds us of the atonement. 68 and 74, the natural fruit shall bring forth the natural fruit and they shall be one.

Starting point is 00:13:18 And then as you just pointed out verse 74, and they became like unto one body and the fruits were equal. Zion. Oneness, equality and that should remind us of the temple. We would be uncomfortable if we saw people come into the temple really blinged out, you know, if they were dripping with jewelry, you know, that would detract from what we're trying to do there. But we're all dressed the same in the temple. We're of one heart and one mind. And the Lord views us equally.

Starting point is 00:13:49 And the fruit of the tree of life should remind us of the clothing of the temple too, the bright clothing. It was the 718. They were of one heart and one mind and there was no poor among them. I'm still stuck on verse 21. It said, the poorest spot in all the land of thy vineyard. Hank, we know that there are people who are in prison that are allowed to listen to this podcast. And just to make an application, they may be thinking, I'm in this poor spot right now. But look what you're doing. Look what the Lord can do. You're listening. You're trying to let God prevail. We get to places sometimes through our own choices, sometimes through others using their agency badly, through chance we're in a poor spot. But God can do things with people in a poor spot that are amazing and miraculous.

Starting point is 00:14:43 I just hope anybody who is feeling I'm in a poor spot, look what the Lord says, counsel me not. I got this. I know where you are. I am going to help you bring forth much fruit. I love that idea there. I love that, John, that your verse 74, 75, 76, it's coming. You may be on verse 21 right now, but 75, 76 comes. In your particular growth, in your vineyard, the Lord knows what He's doing and He's got you. And He's never done with us. Sometimes we might feel like, well, I have sinned so much or I've passed some arbitrary sin limit, but that's not the story here in Jacob 5. The story here is that the Lord

Starting point is 00:15:27 isn't done with us and that he will work with us as long as it takes to get who he wants us to be and to become. That's the story. He is so willing to labor in the vineyard failure after failure after failure. He is going to keep working until we get to that. Verse 74. I'm going to get you there. Yeah. I have to tell you both. I remember when I was heading out on a mission, my bishop said, Hey, what verse do you want on your plaque? What scripture verse? And I didn't know what to say. I went home and searched a couple of things and thought, oh, this one will work. But if I could do that again, it would be Jacob 5.72. Came to pass, the servants did go and labor with their might.

Starting point is 00:16:10 Like, it's tough. And the Lord of the vineyard labored with them. Man, that is such a beautiful idea. And I've noticed, I bet both of you would say too, in the work of the Lord, not just in missionary work, but in the work of the Lord, as you look back, you think, he's been laboring with me. We're shoulder to shoulder with the Lord of the universe on this. What an experience that is. Some people may be in a hunter mission, and some people may be in a fisher mission to use the Jeremiah 16 16 language, where maybe you'll find one, maybe you can throw your net over

Starting point is 00:16:46 this side. But he's going to be working with you. That's cool. This might be an appropriate point to bring in second King six, Elisha and the young man, I pray that he would open his eyes that they're more with us than they that be with them. My father has reminded me of that so many times. He'll be listening to this. I'm so grateful that he taught me that lesson.

Starting point is 00:17:12 There's always more with us than are against us. As Elder Holland has said, those armies ride with reckless speed to aid the seed of Abraham. If we could have the veil parted, we would see that that's true. There are more laboring with us and that even the Lord Himself, though we might not see Him, that His hand is in it all. I can almost see verse 75, the Lord almost with tears in His eyes looking at those who did His work, blessed art thou, because you have been diligent in laboring with me in my vineyard. You've kept my commandments. You've brought forth the

Starting point is 00:17:49 natural fruit. You are going to have joy with me for a long time." He says in verse 76, for a long time. Just this beautiful ending. It's almost like a movie here, Matt, where it got started and then it went really dark and then it ends with this glorious conclusion. Matt It's cased that way too, where it wraps up pretty quickly, where it reaches resolution pretty quickly. And then verse 77, that last period, the end of the world is just summed up in a verse. And then, when the time cometh that evil fruit shall again come into my vineyard, then will I cause the good and the bad to be gathered, and the good will I preserve, and the bad will I cast away into

Starting point is 00:18:28 its own place." That gets quoted actually by the Lord in Doctrine and Covenants 88. And there's going to come a time when Satan and his hosts and those select few who will not inherit a kingdom of glory will be in their own place. That conflict that has existed from the time of the pre-mortal existence will be at an end. You mentioned this before, Matt. How could this possibly come out of Joseph Smith's head? He had never seen an olive tree in his life. The furthest south he ever got was I think Washington DC where it snows. There are things about olive trees from Paul and from Isaiah, but there's nothing about burning and dunging. I think the only book that

Starting point is 00:19:15 existed on olive husbandry about the time was written in 1820 and it was in French. So the fact that these details are in there, it's kind of evidence that this is an ancient text. Parasites or diseases that would cause bad fruit, if you cut those branches off and you have to burn them so that... You can't just leave them. Yeah, you got to burn them. And it would encumber, to use Zenos' word, your way working around the others. This is an ancient text, gotta be. Amen. He calls up his servants. That reminded me, this is a coronation ceremony. They're going to be anointed with the oil produced by the vineyard. Oh, wow. In the vineyard. Oh, wow. Yeah. What a beautiful chapter. Honestly, I hope what we've discussed in this chapter lights a fire under people to say,

Starting point is 00:20:08 I want to go get more. Because really, what you said, Matt, you could study this for the rest of your life and there's more and more. And there will always be more. That's the beauty of it. That book that you held up, here's one chapter and here's a book. There's another one those Farms folks did on King Benjamin's speech, those like 700 pages. It just shows there's such depth here.

Starting point is 00:20:29 Jacob chapter six, he's going to bring up some therefores or did you notice type of thing. Well, let's do that then. Matt is chapter six, Jacob saying, Hey, let me explain this to you. Yeah. It's like Nephi does. He's isn't just going to dump it on us and then leave no interpretation of it.

Starting point is 00:20:48 He really does start to unpack that beginning of the first verse. And now, behold, my brethren, as I said unto you that I would prophesy, behold, this is my prophecy, that the things which the prophet, Zena, spake concerning the house of Israel, in which he likened them to a tame of tree must surely come to pass. And then he quotes Isaiah, Isaiah 11 11, and the day that he shall Yosef set his hand again, the second time to recover his people is the day, even the last time, that the servants of the Lord shall go forth in his power to nourish and prune his vineyard. And after that cometh the end." And then it's interesting here, you're familiar with Isaiah 11, 11,

Starting point is 00:21:29 that's the prophecy that Israel will be gathered from, then he lists seven nations, and then he adds an eighth element from the islands of the sea. And it's fun to take BYU Hawaii students through this, because any given class where you have maybe 20 people or more, you're going to find at least seven nations there and then the Isles of the Sea. It helps them understand. The seven is the important element because that's a number of fullness or completion or perfection in Hebrew numerology, but then you're getting the Isles of the Sea. We've got students here from Isles of the Sea. We've got students here

Starting point is 00:22:06 from every part of the Pacific. R. Listen, O Isles, I just had to underline verse 4, He remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches. He stretches forth His hands unto them all the day long. He's a very involved Lord of the Vineyard. J. And if we take the Malachi take on this, roots and branches are both ancestors and descendants, and so we're looking at something that traverses even the veil of death. He remembers the ones in the spirit world now, he remembers those on this side of the veil.

Starting point is 00:22:40 He even has in mind those who are still in pre-mortality and are coming. I catch that in verse 5. Love God as He loves you. If that's one thing you get out of Jacob 5. The divine embrace. This is a theme in the Book of Mormon, by the way. It begins with Lehi. I am circled about eternally in the arms of his love.

Starting point is 00:23:03 When Nephi wants to be encircled around in the robe of His righteousness, here Jacob is saying, cleave unto God as He cleaves unto you and His arm of mercy is extended towards you. This idea that God embraces us. The kaphat? Yeah, Nebelie connected it with that and the Egyptian word Chepet, which is an embrace, it was drawn with arms reaching down out of heaven. And Nibli's connection was that this is the embrace that consummates the final escape from death in the Egyptian funerary rituals.

Starting point is 00:23:38 There's a lot of language in the Psalms. I did my Sperry Symposium presentation on this this year. This is found expression in the temple in Jerusalem as well. The idea of coming under Jehovah's wings, taking refuge in his wings. Third Nephi, the invitation where he invites us to come unto him. His arm of mercy is extended. He'll gather us even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings. You run around this town here, you're going to see chickens. Sometimes following the mother hen, they get soaked here a lot too. So that's when they gather them up. **Matt Stauffer** Keep them warm and safe.

Starting point is 00:24:19 **Jericho Lampard** There's an allusion to the Psalms here too, as we come towards the end. He asks in verse 6, if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, for why will you die? He's quoting from Psalm 95, one of the temple hymns. Remember why has Israel not entered into the rest of the Lord? It's because of their hardening their hearts, they've been testing the Lord, but Jacob wants us not to do that because the Lord's trying to bring us into his rest. He's trying to bring us to where he is, into that most holy place in the temple. It's represented by the celestial room. Jacob is very temple aware. He uses a lot of that in here. Verses 12 and 13, I don't think he's planning to write more.

Starting point is 00:25:06 Obey wise, what can I say more? Finally I bid unto you a farewell until I shall meet you before the pleasing bar of God. Yeah, sounds like a closing. I think he's ending, but then in chapter 7 he's got to tell us some more. I tell my students when we read Jacob 6-12,i-wise, what can I say more, that obi-wise has a brother, Obi-Wan. So, this is obi-wise and Obi-Wan Kenobi, those brothers. Thank you, John.

Starting point is 00:25:36 This one's getting used too. My daughter is going to be horrified. It's a groaner or is it a laugher? Yeah, those are. Oh, this one is going to be, what have you done to me? That's when it's so viscerally painful to her. But she she feels like I've traumatized her. I like the fact that you've mentioned that Jacob sounds like he's done here. Jacob 6 13. There are, I want to say, four major writers of the Book of Mormon, Nephi Jacob, Mormon Moroni. Nephi Jacob and

Starting point is 00:26:10 Moroni all have a phrase like that, I shall meet you. I love the Bible. I get to teach the Gospels. And I'm just saying that Book of Mormon has a different kind of tone of voice where it's, I'm gonna see you. Nephi says it, Jacob says it, Moroni says it, I will meet you one day. And it's fun to imagine such a meeting as that. These authors saw us and wrote to us, which is so different. It invites you, you gotta take a stand on this. Pete Yeah, I love it. Pete I think that this is another evidence that this isn't Joseph. Those final testimonies are not the testimonies of someone trying to perpetrate a pious fiction

Starting point is 00:26:51 or a fraud. These are real individuals who are bearing a final testimony that they will meet us there before God and we will know then if we don't know now, we are going to know then that they had the knowledge that they had. It's being left to us to decide what we're going to do. Remember President Benson said, the Book of Mormon's not on trial. The members of the church and the world are on trial with what we do with this witness of Jesus Christ. Nephi's like, if these are not the words of Christ, judgy, God will show you, and you will see me face to face.

Starting point is 00:27:32 There's a tone of voice there, wow, this is, they really did see us and write for us. Speaking of, let's meet up and talk, Jacob adds this story. A man named Sherem comes among the people and he's doing something that we haven't seen before. We've seen Laman and Lemuel murmuring, getting upset, but this Sherem wants to throw off the work. Matt, what should we see in chapter 7? When I felt traumatized as a missionary were times when there were people that would confront me, specifically trying to shake me from the faith. And that's the phrase he uses here, where he says, and he had hoped to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the

Starting point is 00:28:16 things which I'd seen concerning these things, for I'd truly seen angels. Maybe he even has in mind here the Lord who he saw. Remember 2 Nephi 11. Nephi cites him as a witness of Christ, one of his three. Nephi himself, Jacob, and Isaiah. And they had also ministered unto me, and I also had heard the voice of the Lord speaking unto me from time to time, wherefore I could not be shaken. But there's something, you try to avoid contention as a missionary, not be shaken. But there's something, you try to avoid contention as a missionary, you realize that it never gets you anywhere. But then sometimes despite what your efforts, you find yourself in a situation where someone is just determined to try to contend with you and shake your faith. And that can be pretty traumatizing. I think that's one of

Starting point is 00:28:59 the reasons he's telling us this, because this guy really tried to make a full frontal assault on what he already knew to be true. And he did it in the way that he does it's really interesting because he uses very specious reasoning, very fallacious reasoning. He asserts knowledge like for no man can know of such things, for he cannot tell of things to come. He asserts things and you get down to the epistemology, well, how does he know that? How does Sherem know that? He doesn't know that, he's just asserting these things. It's pretty typical of people who try to challenge the faith of Latter-day Saints and others, others who have faith in God, faith in Christ. He asserts them as if

Starting point is 00:29:46 they're true and he provides no evidence. There was a saying that one of my Catholic university professors had, libera severatur, libera abnegatur, what's freely asserted can be freely denied. But Jacob goes even further. Remember when he does more than just dismisses what Sherem is saying, he explains exactly why his reasoning is off base. I noticed once that in verse 7 he says, "...for he cannot tell of things to come." But then in verse 9 he says, "...there is no Christ, neither has been, nor ever will be."

Starting point is 00:30:19 As if he's telling us of things to come. So he's... He cuts himself off on the knees. Yeah. I also think we ought to mention where did this guy come from? Was he on the ship? That's a question that a lot of scholars have asked. Is this evidence for others in the land? A non-Lehite, right?

Starting point is 00:30:38 I know one scholar has looked at this and thinks Sherem is maybe a Zoramite. Book of Mormon Central has an interesting article, Did Others Influence Book of Mormon Peoples? We'll put a link to it in our show notes. But yeah, it's a good question. Where does this guy come from? One thing I'd like to highlight that I think moms and dads, grandmas and grandpas could highlight this week

Starting point is 00:31:01 is Jacob 7-5. He had hoped to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many things I had seen. I truly had seen angels. I heard the voice of the Lord. I could not be shaken. I notice that Jacob doesn't say, notwithstanding the many revelations my father had, or the many revelations that my brother had had. What does President Nelson say? You gotta take charge. Take charge of your own testimony. Take responsibility, yeah. My kids have a CD of yours, I think,

Starting point is 00:31:33 is it called Unshaken? Yeah, it's called Unshaken, yeah. Unshaken, yeah. I was pretty set on this idea that you have to have your own experiences, Joseph Smith, I have learned for myself. I love it. Yeah. I think it's really personal for Jacob that he's attacking his specifically not only his

Starting point is 00:31:51 faith, but his faith in Christ and what that faith in Christ means to Jacob personally. And there have been some Latter-day Saint writers who've written on even criticizing Jacob for his response, but I think that overlooks just how personal this is to him. Even after Sherem challenges Jacob for the sign and a sign is given him, he falls to the earth without strength, there's this point at which Sherem wants to do a mea culpa. Jacob summarizes and says, he spake plainly unto them and denied the things which he had taught them, verse 17, and they confessed and confessed the Christ and the power of the Holy Ghost and the ministering of angels.

Starting point is 00:32:35 And he spake plainly unto them that he had been deceived by the power of the devil, and he spake of hell and of eternity and of eternal punishment. And he said, I fear lest I have committed the unpardonable sin, for I have lied unto God, for I denied the Christ and said I believe the scriptures. And they truly testify of him. Because I have thus lied unto God, I greatly fear lest my case shall be awful, but I confess unto God." Maybe some people expect more of a sympathetic response from Jacob when it comes in just a second. And it came to pass that when he had said these words he could say no more and he gave up the ghost.

Starting point is 00:33:11 And when the multitude had witnessed that he spake these things and was about to give up the ghost, they were astonished exceedingly, insomuch that the power of God came down upon them and they were overcome that they fell to the earth. And this thing was pleasing unto me, Jacob, for I had requested of my father who was in heaven, for he had heard my cry and answered my prayers. And it came to pass that the peace and love of God was restored again among my people, and they searched the scriptures and hearkened no more to the words of this wicked man." Maybe some people would expect that he'd be more sympathetic here, but I think that people don't appreciate just how much he was traumatized, I think, by this guy. And that explains why he even

Starting point is 00:33:49 told us this story. That this was a real challenge to the stability and the well-being of, spiritual well-being of his people. And even to the degree that he felt in himself, he was directly challenged by Sherem. I feel like in the New Testament, the law of Moses had lost its really clear connection for some people pointing to Christ. In the Book of Mormon, it seems it never loses its connection to point them to Christ except for right here. It's interesting to me, this is not Korahor saying there's no God, this is Sherem saying, yeah, there's a God, but we're supposed to keep the law of Moses and you guys are converting the law of Moses to the worship of a being which will come many hundred years hence he says in verse

Starting point is 00:34:32 7. So he's trying to disconnect the law of Moses from pointing to Christ. Is that what you see Sherem doing? And that's a great cross-reference remember 2 Nephi 25 at the end, I mean that's what Nephi is doing, he's trying to help us understand how thoroughly Christological and Christ-connected the law of Moses is. And that's what's supposed to guide Nephi's descendants. The small plates document, Noel Reynolds has talked about a lot about this and other scholars have. There were some very practical functions that the small plates of Nephi had for Nephi religious claims. For example, Nephi's right to rule that ran counter to the claims of the Lamanites. And what Sherem is trying to do here, I think, cuts really hard against the grain

Starting point is 00:35:25 of what Nephi and later Jacob considers right. He perceives this as more of an existential threat to the community than maybe we sometimes think. This isn't Jacob court defending his testimony of Jesus Christ and the Christ centeredness of his community. He can't just let that pass. Yeah, I love that verse 23, the love of God was restored among the people. I mean, that's very fourth Nephi because of the love of God which dwelt in the hearts of the people. John, Matt, I wanted to do a little shout out to Ashley Stone and Lauren Rose. They

Starting point is 00:36:09 run a podcast called the Come Back Podcast. You can find it on YouTube. Listen to some of these episodes. After leaving the church, Elise felt misunderstood. This episode is how God reached out and softened her heart. Here's another episode. Stephen Murphy left the church after being exposed to anti-Mormon content. After much studying and researching, he returned. There's another episode. Unexpected pain and loss led Susan to leave the church.

Starting point is 00:36:38 After 15 years away, she returned. And it goes on and on. I connect that to that verse, it came to pass, peace and love of God was restored. And that can happen in someone's life. Matt, what do we need to see before we let you go? Another evidence that Joseph is not the author of this comes in verse 26, but I think this is beautiful. And it's become to mean more to me as I'm about to traverse the age of 50 line.

Starting point is 00:37:07 It says, it came to pass that I, Jacob, began to be old and the record of this people being kept on the other plates of Nephi. Wherefore I conclude this record declaring that I have written according to the best of my knowledge by saying that the time passed away with us. Also our lives passed away like as it were unto us a dream. We being a lonesome and a solemn people, wanderers cast out from Jerusalem, born in tribulation and in a wilderness and hated of our brethren, which caused wars and contentions, wherefore we did mourn out our days. A lot of the students I have here are from

Starting point is 00:37:46 diaspora communities. Either families have even been removed from their homelands sometimes for one or more generations. Jacob's feeling it all, right? All of the trauma of exile and displacement, he's feeling it. But I will tell you, no young man would write this. If we're looking at Joseph as the author of this, there's no way he wrote this, saying the time had passed away with us and also our lives passed away. Why? Because it were unto us a dream. I look back at the years with my children and it's gone so fast. The time with my wife since we met in suburban DC in Virginia, it's just gone so fast. You know, you're back in your 20s and your 30s and you think, ah, you know, I've just got all the time in the world. The hourglass just keeps running and all of a sudden you notice it's half empty and then it keeps running and you realize we're all on the clock and this beautiful

Starting point is 00:38:50 thing we call youth isn't forever. Those are not the words of a young man. Those are the words of a prophet of God who has seen his life go and the years of his life go and he's experienced them in really traumatic ways in exile, cut off from members of his family who chose a completely different path. I just love that. It's one of my favorite verses in To Bring It Back to the Savior. Again, I think this chapter is about not just Jacob's life and the end of his life, but his testimony of Christ. He lived it to the end of those days that passed as like unto a dream. I feel the same way, Matt.

Starting point is 00:39:33 I keep telling my wife, I got old too fast. I got wise too slow. It's so true. I put in my margin, no happily ever after. And for Jacob, who was, who Lehi had just the best talk with him in Second Nephi 2 about why there's opposition and all things and everything, not a happy life. But I love what you've said because I look back too and just go, when did all of this happen? How did this go by so fast? It's like a dream. So I appreciate that insight. I'm gonna be thinking about that. I wanted to look at the last word

Starting point is 00:40:11 in verse 27 because some people stumble at Jacob saying, brethren adieu. Now in the French Book of Mormon it says, les messieurs, see you later. No, I don't know what it says. But my kids, who I've got two French speakers and a son-in-law that's a French speaker now, adieu and adios come from the same place, right? Oh wow. Go with God. And that makes sense. There's a finality to adios and adieu that there isn't with see you later. Yeah, see you later.

Starting point is 00:40:49 I love it. Yeah, that's a French word, but he wanted to get that meaning of go with God. Matt, we know we got to let you go. Can you give us 90 seconds? Tell us how you feel about the Book of Mormon. It is a witness of Christ that I hope will sink deeply into and penetrate our souls in this coming year in a way that its words never have before. I hope that we will see Christ, that we will connect more deeply to His Atonement and the ways in which He's seeking to gather us to Him in fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant. That's what we've been talking about. That's what

Starting point is 00:41:33 Jacob 5 is about. It's about Christ's painstaking atoning work to gather us to Him and help us to become all that we have the capacity to become. And His will will be done. He will continue to work with us. He'll continue to completely honor our agency. But we make it so much easier on ourselves and often others when we decide to let God prevail in our lives. The shérum's made to fame, but the truth of God will go forth. And that segues nicely into that standard of truth. Yeah. Matt, thank you. Thank you for spending time with us today.

Starting point is 00:42:16 You could have been on the beach out there in Hawaii. Now I get to go into the classroom, and I'm energized because of what we've experienced here. So thank you to you, John and Hank, and to your wonderful staff too. You're making a huge difference. It is moving the needle. Thank you for saying that about our team.

Starting point is 00:42:36 We love our team and we love you. It's completely mutual. Love your team, love both of you. Thank you for all that you've shared here, all that you always share so generously. And I could speak for all of your listeners that we all love you. We'll take it, we'll take it. We wanna thank Dr. Matthew Bowen,

Starting point is 00:42:57 Dr. Matt Bowen for being with us today. What a treat, how fun. We wanna thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and we always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We've got a lot of years to cover. Enis, Jerem, Omni, Words of Mormon on Follow Him.

Starting point is 00:43:22 Before you skip to the next episode, I have some important information. This episode's transcript and show notes are available on our website, followhim.co. That's followhim.co. On our website, you'll also find our two books, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament and Finding Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Both books are full of short and powerful quotes and insights from all our episodes from the Old and New Testaments. The digital copies of these books are absolutely free. You can watch the podcast on YouTube. Also, our Facebook and Instagram accounts have videos and extras you won't find anywhere else. If you'd like to know how you can help us,

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