Games with Names - The Snow Bowl Game with Scott Pioli | 2001 AFC Divisional Round: Raiders vs. Patriots

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

Scott Pioli is in studio! We're coming to you from our Nuthouse East studio. Today, we're going deep on one of the most infamous games in NFL history: The Snow Bowl Game aka The Tuck Rule Game. That's right, we're talking the 2001 AFC Divisional Round matchup between the Oakland Raiders and the New England Patriots. Scott joins us (1:15). We go back to January of 2002 (36:16). We get into these teams (1:30:57). We dive back into the game (1:38:10). We score it (2:38:39). We wrap up the episode (2:58:14). Support the show: http://www.gameswithnames.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to Black Lit on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke. So Tommy's first deal, he got less than he should have for his slot. And I'll never forget, we were at this one point in time, I think it was maybe Tommy's third deal,

and we were trying to keep the team together, right? That was part of our thing. We didn't expect people to take home team discounts. We were hopeful that people would want to spread it and keep the winning, et cetera, et cetera. And I'll never forget, Tommy was getting annoyed because he was getting distracted. Not annoyed with anyone, he just wanted to think about ball.

One morning he comes up to my office and he knocks and he comes in and he closes the door and he says, welcome to Games with Names. I'm Julian Edelman and they're Jack and Kyler and we're on a mission to find the greatest game of all time. On today's episode, we're covering the tuck rule game, Patriots versus the Raiders, the 2001 division round game with legendary NFL GM Scott Pioli. Our guy. A legend. And we get into talking about the game that started the Patriots dynasty.

One of the most pivotal, important, and genuinely emotional games that I was ever a part of. I'll probably get choked up during this. Yeah. When Tom Brady became the guy. Part of it was not only the quarterback's confidence, but the team's confidence in the quarterback. Tommy was a kid. I mean, this is his first year as a starter.

And some great Ernie Adams stories. We literally sat next to each other in the coach for those nine seasons, every single game. What's watching a game like a whole game like with Ernie? It's awesome. This is an instant classic. Let's go. Let's go. Games with Names is a production of iHeart Radio. January 19, 2002. The old Foxborough Stadium, Foxborough, Massachusetts. stadium, Foxborough, Massachusetts. Driving snow, the Patriots trail the Raiders 13 to 10 late in the fourth.

Brady drops back. Woodson takes a clean shot. Didn't even see him. Is that a fumble? This is the Snowball Game. That was awesome. Is that how long we've been going? Yeah. We're having fun.

Dude. This is our Boston setup. This is a Nutt House East. And then we do most of them in LA. So if you're ever in LA, you wanna come back on, let us know. And we moved it out there because my daughter started kindergarten

and she couldn't come out here no more. So I had to go out there. Seven years old now. We got her on tribal soccer. Dude, let me tell you something. I'm gonna put it right in front of me. The, not of any testiverty me. The not a Vinny Testaverde away. More of a West Welker.

Vinny, we all know the Vinny story. I didn't even play with the motherfucker when people were talking about his dick. I was with Vinny in Cleveland, Baltimore, the Jets and the Patriots. Jeez, so you know Vinny. The legend of Vinny. The legend of Vinny. The legend of Vinny.

I'll tell you this about the parenting thing. The days are long, man, but the years are short. Our little Mia, she's our one and only, she was born in 03, right before, two weeks before training camp, I wife induced labor. All the kids are usually born the same times. Yeah. Because you got to time it out right.

You don't want it during the season. I had Lily. But it goes like that, man. I know. I had her in 16. And she came out week 11 or 12. We just came back from the West Coast. And on a Monday, I go up to Bill in his office

I'm like Bill. I gotta go. I'm gonna go to see I gotta go to LA My kids being born and I was like nervous to tell me this is this is in 16 But I mean what time of year this was like November 30th. So that's okay. We're late in the seat That's actually like week 14 week something like that but we were on a good we were at But we were in a good stage of our season and I went out there, he's like, are you gonna be back on Wednesday, right? I'm like, I'm here coach, I'm here, don't worry.

Fucking flew out to LA, saw Lilly, it was- That's cream season. Cream season, that's cream season right there boys. Our text, I was thinking about our text when you thought I was being sarcastic, right out of the gate. It takes a while to become a regular citizen. Oh yeah.

From a mindset standpoint. A civilian. Yeah. It does. And we're talking right now about the transition from being in the league and having the structure, the routine, and everything like that. And then, you know, it's kind of like very similar to when a guy exits the military. You get institutionalized with everything that you've been taught or you've been going through for, you know, for me it was 15 plus years. You know,

for some guys in the upper divisions, you know, where Scott's at, it's 25, 30, 40 plus years. You get out into the real world, it's hard to adjust your life because you're so accustomed to the schedule, the red schedule like we're joking around, like you know where to be, but it's rigorous days, but you know what you gotta do

and it becomes a routine of yours. And then there's the triggers, right? There's different things that, like for instance now, I've been out of it a couple of years now, and living on Nantucket in the summertime. That's a flex. There's a smell.

There's a smell, the hedge starts flowering, and there's a smell, and that smell was always like, oh my gosh. Spring. No, training camp. Training camp. Training camp, but you mentioned your life and that cadence that happens. That started long ago. So even before the NFL, I mean, as disciplined as you were

and as hard as you worked, there's just this lifestyle and these routines that you get used to. And in talking to a lot of people from the military, it's a real mind screw. It is. I mean, it's... I mean, for us, it really started when I was eight.

You know, when you go to school, you come home, you eat, you do homework, you go to football practice. Well, some of us did homework. Well, you know, you had to. Some of us did. God, Kent State, right? We didn't do much there. But I'm just saying, as a young kid,

now that school was replaced with football school because that's what you do when you go to work. You're sitting in meetings for three and a half hours before you even get on the field. And it's the same routine. So yeah, it's and then there's the there's the daily cycle. There's the weekly cycle. There's the in season off season. Oh yeah, there's this cadence of life and this routine. I was just talking to Kyler about that exactly what you said when we were... You were talking about the smell. Literally this morning. This morning I go... It was like clockwork when the fans left training camp and it was just that

53-man roster. You felt the chill in the air. You felt the season change immediately. And I felt it a little bit out there this morning. It wasn't quite humid. You still feel that something's, that's football season. And there's a smell. There's certain things that bloom in certain areas and it's all really familiar. That's how I was talking about.

The hedge at home, it's like, I remember the, God, it's time to leave my family. Yeah. And it triggers, it's the smell of the grass in the morning when it's been cut and it's wet. It smells different than any grass, any time of the year. It's kind of like the smell if you're in a tight, tight meeting room and Bill goes up in there

with no fucking socks on and just shoes and he takes his shoes off and it smells ratchet That's kind of that, you know, oh it's football season It's football season. Yeah And then he takes those fingers and he puts them in the communal fucking nuts Like our our air ice is the edible nuts. Yes, yeah, the edible nuts. But we used to have scoopers and Bill would be sitting there and just putting his hands in there and I'm just watching and you're not gonna say a word about it,

but thinking like, man, I'm not eating there for a while. All right, let's start this thing. Welcome to Games with Names. Today we are looking at the Tuck Rule Game, 2001 AFC Divisional Round Game. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The Tuck Rule Game, 2001 AFC Divisional Round Game. Burr. The Tuck Rule Game? The Tuck Rule Game.

It's not the, it's the Snowball. Snowball. See, here's the thing. This game's. And we're talking with Scott Pioli. Welcome to the show. Sorry. See, I saw it.

I'm like, wait a second here. Here's the deal. Games with names, right? This is a game with two names. Two names. If you live in New England or are a Patriots fan or if you're a member of the tribe, it's the Snowball. I know.

Everybody else outside of here, all the haters call it the Tuck Road Bear. You know what, this is a game with two names. I love that you brought this up because later on, spoiler, we're going to we're going to name the game officially and then we're going to score the game. And we developed that segment with this game in mind. And then as we've done upwards of 70 games now, most of them either don't have a game or it's clearly that one.

So like this idea of scoring the game is only it's not really useful. It's outdated. But for this one, it matters. And I'm pumped about it. Let's go. See, see, you're you're a member of the tribe. You can't call. You know, it's crazy, though, at this time in my life in 2001. Oh, boy, here we go. I was dating Jerry Rice's daughter.

Come on. Jerry goes to the Raiders. Heck, yeah. And he bought out in this game a little bit. He had a couple big time third downs and big plays in the the elements that they were playing and and the week before and The way you get in the jet and the jet And so like and then I got drafted to the Patriots and I was kind of not in the tribe at the time

So I get this time of my life. I wasn't in this tribe. I was like I was kind of going for the Raiders You're rooting for the Raiders this game? A little bit. Well, you Jerry, you at the time. Barry a kid. But how about I also love Jerry Rice and Tim Brown and Tim Brown and Charles Woodson, Eric Allen, Rich. Charlie Garner was one of my favorite running backs because he was a Niner and then he went to the Raiders.

Good hands. Great. It was a great, he was a small three down back. Yeah. But he used to plug away in between the tackles for as small as he was. He had some big-ass games. I love Charlie Gardner. But Rich Gannon too. Let me tell you some research. Rich Gannon is one of the most underrated, really, really good quarterbacks that the NFL has seen. And he had a streak and he had a run of, and just, he was like dialed in, focused. He could have been one of us.

He could have. He could have been one of us. I got to meet Rich at the Raiders training camp last year and he was such a good dude. He's called a lot of our games because he does TV. And I think his completion percentage this year, wasn't it like 70% or something? It was ridiculous.

He was the first to like do the arm angle stuff. Like Rich Gannon would always do drop his arm angle and hit that little flat route, no looks and stuff. And it was that resurgent second career because where was he before? He was with- He was, well he was Minnesota. Minnesota. He was the Raiders. here you know here's the thing coming out he

was at the University of Delaware tubby Raymond blue hands you know the fight in blue hands absolutely and you know wingt guy yeah and they ran so when he was coming out people weren't sure if he was actually a quarterback because the offense that they ran they didn't know if he could throw yeah but he was coming out, people weren't sure if he was actually a quarterback because the offense that they ran, they didn't know if he could throw. Yeah, athletic. But you're right. That change in the angle or the slot or whatever. That was so I mean, we talk about it now because of Patrick Mahomes, Math Stafford, all these guys that are doing it. Burrow even does it sometimes.

I mean, the the guy that I remember doing it when I was a kid was Rich Gannon. He did it. And these couple years, and we'll get into the teams more, but these few years of these Raiders teams were so fun to watch. You know, when they were stomping at that door, because as much as anyone wants to say anything, the league is better when the Raiders are good.

Absolutely. Because it's a pillar organization, especially with the history of Al Davis and all that they've done and how he even got the team. And we used to have the breakdowns from Bill about the organizations the week when we were playing them. So I knew I know a lot about Al Davis because we'd have the fucking, you know, this guy sued the league, you know what I mean? So Mr. Davis was he's one of those people that just that we could tell Al Davis stories all day and we will when we get into the Raiders and when we get into the Raiders because well remember the just do your job story yeah that was that's that's

Al Davis and I'll tell you how that just win baby just win baby all right let's come on let's let's not let's that story. You got the story about. Oh, I'm going to give you the. Yeah, here's the deal. Just do your job. So this is 1981. I think it's Parcell's first year as the head coach of the New York Giants. Al Davis had actually coached Parcell's a hundred years ago in some all star game when Parcells was at Wichita State.

And Parcells and Mr. Davis were really close. And Mr. Davis was one of his mentors. And at the end of the season, the Giants sucked his first year. And Parcells is thinking he's going to get fired. He's pissed off at the GM and the player personnel department and he's talking to mr. Davis and I know the story firsthand from Parcells Parcells says that he's complaining to mr. Davis. Ah, we don't have this we don't have that these players suck I need you know, I gotta redo this roster and and he said mr. Davis interrupted and say hang on a second He goes outside your office You got anything on the wall? Yeah He goes what's it say. You got anything on the wall?

Yeah. He goes, what's it say? He says, it's a name plate. It's got my name on it. He goes, what's it say under that? He goes, head coach. He said, Mr. Davis-Lingsford, and goes, that's right. The head coach.

Shut the F up and just do your job. Your job isn't to find players. Your job is to put the roster to get it. Parcell said he went off on him. And fast forward a couple of years later, Parcell's, you know, we're at the Jets. Parcell's mother effed me when I was asking about, you know, I was the pro personnel director

and I wanted to do some college scouting. He went off on me, told me to just do my job. Belichick gets the just do your job thing from Parcell's. Next thing you know, it's on T-shirts. That's where the whole just do, the just do your job is Mr. Davis. Wow. Amazing.

Wow. The connection between this game, the Patriots organization. What's the word? Am I, what is that? Is it serendipity? Kismet. Kismet?

I'm not a word guy. Intertwined. Not. Kismet. I'm not a word guy. Intertwined. Not a word guy. Football guy. Not a word guy. There's layers to it. There's so many. This this game was unexpected, unexpected, but we'll get it. Sure. We got to start the show off.

All right. So I thought you had. I thought we were rolling. I'm rolling. No, it's rolling. But we just got a couple of things we got to get into. The first one's a big structure guy. got a couple things we gotta get into. Jules is a big structure guy. Yeah, structure, I like structure. Like structure.

Well, shocking. Shocking. No, the first question we always ask our guests is in one sentence, why'd you pick this game? Oh, I picked this game for a number of reasons. One sentence. One sentence. One sentence. Because it's one of the most pivotal, important,

and genuinely emotional games that I was ever a part of. Still to this day, I'll probably get choked up during this. During the run that started the Patriots, because within this game, there's so many things that are truly about what we were and became. Yeah, yeah. Is this the greatest game of all time? Oh, I'm not an all time guy.

You see, I'm not a believer in that whole thing of all time because there's so many different variables and dynamics, whether it's the greatest player of all time, the greatest quarterback of all time, all that stuff, it's kind of like, there's too many variables. It's certainly one of the best. I mean, if you're on our side.

The boat, it's the best of all time? Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Did we just create something? Is this the boat game of all time? Stole that from Blake Bortles. Oh. Yeah, Blake B create something. Is this the boat boat game of all time? Stole that from Blake Bortles. Oh, yeah, Blake Bortles.

Didn't anticipate talking about Bortles on the pot today. No, yeah. I mean, this is such a pivotal game for the National Football League. I mean, this literally rewrote history. It rewrote expectations for organizations. We're seeing that right now with the Chiefs. The Chiefs are doing what they're doing right now and they're chasing something and they think it's possible

because of this specific game. It started something really cool. I mean, they had to redefine rules. Redefine rules. Yeah, there were so many things that happened and it was, again, it goes back to, it was big for the league, it was big for this team and this franchise.

This region. But yeah, and it really, it capsulized all the stuff that was part of the program, where it was situational football, it was fighting to the finish, teammates taking care, I mean, part of this is. Adjusting to adjustments. Yeah.

Adversity, overcoming something, doing your job. Like everything was in it. Troy Brown fumbles two punt returns. And who picks it? And who recovers them both? Izzo. Izzo. Fucking Izzo.

Right, a guy who we had signed as a free agent that year. One of the 23 guys we signed as free agents that year. Yeah, he was a pivotal part of those teams. He was a special teams captain. Matthew Slater to this day talks about how good Larry Izzo is. And that's Matthew Slater who's gonna be considered one of the best teamers of all time. Yes, and I'm glad you didn't go goat there

because he's one of the best of all time. Yeah, he's, I mean. We don't like goats. No, we don't. There's only go goat there because he's one of the best of all time. Yeah, I mean, we don't like goats. No, we don't. There's no goats. You only want goats. There's two goats, actually. There's two goats.

Two goats, two goats. What's life looking like right now? Oh, life looks very different. We live nine months out of the year on Nantucket after I left the Falcons in 2019, started doing TV. Yeah, good, you're doing good on there too. Thank you, thank you. But here's what I love about it is because

being on the other side for so many years and seeing how what is said in the media and how narratives can impact not only the individuals but the individual's families. And careers. And yeah, and so when I signed up it was was really cool because I want to bring light to things, man. Yeah.

You know what I mean? There's enough people that are a lot smarter than me that can criticize people and talk about what they would do, even though they've never done it. I just, I'm thankful I have this platform to elevate people that I care about, people that I respect and that I work with. So it's really cool.

And it keeps me near ball. Like going to training camps this year, you talk about that whole thing, Jules, you become a part of this life and this world and you get separated from it and it's darkness can creep in, man. Yeah, it can. I mean, when you take someone out of their feng shui,

you know, your feng shui for so long has been football. Things are crazy, you know. So I get to do that and mentor a bunch of the, you know, some of the young guys that I hired as like entry level folks, like Ryan Poles and Adam Peters and Monte Osinford, who are in roles now where I can serve them. Guys like Shane Waldron, you know, who's now, yeah, you know, just all these.

Shane was with us in 2009. Yeah, Shane was a van driver. Yeah, I remember. I think he picked me up. Yeah, he may have. And, you know, so there's that, and then I'm also, you know, doing some work, some consulting work for the NFL, for the league office.

They have me working in, you know, with the HBCUs. They have me working in the International Player Pathway program, and I do work for colleges league office. They had me working in, you know, with the HBC use, they had me working in the international player pathway program. And I do work for colleges and universities. It's it's a good life now because I'm actually back to you get through this certain time in life where you're chasing the rings early. And then sometimes you get off path where that's not necessarily what I got into it. I wanted to give back to it what I got out of it, which was helping grow up. It's some servant now.

I get that. You know, like, when you're in the grind of football, a lot of things you don't really get to pay attention to. You know what I mean? And you're literally like a mercenary. I felt like a mercenary. I mean, football season, my family, my friends, everyone understood what I was,

what mindset I was in. And I was like, I felt like a mercenary. I mean football season my family my friends everyone understood what I was What mindset I was in? so like they didn't they were awesome because they allowed me to not be able to talk to them and You know I wasn't in a diff I was in a different part of my life And it would be a lot harder if I had my kid and I had my kid later in my career but the early part of my I could have never had a kid or a family because you're so mentally locked in

to the grind of a season, making a team, earning a role, trying to make your role better. There's always a stress on a person that's involved in pro sport, no matter where you are in your career. If you're a guy trying to make the team, you're trying to make the team. If you're a guy trying to make the team, you're trying to make the team. If you're a guy trying to make a role, you're trying to make a role. If you're Tom Brady, you're chasing goats.

And everyone's got these stresses that you have where you look back and it's been six, seven years like, oh, shit, it's crazy. Time flies when you're in that grind. Because once you get to the top, I always tell this to everyone. You win a Super Bowl. I was my most sad after a Super Bowl because you knew how hard it was going to be to reinvent yourself in the offseason to get back to that that that high that you're feeling for that one night, two nights, three nights, you know, and then you go on when another one.

Then it's like, oh, it's going to be even fucking harder. Like it was just every year year it was turn the page, Bob Seeger, we gotta go, it doesn't matter what happened, it's only getting harder, everyone's designing their team to beat you, you have another year of film on you, so it's just a grind. Yeah, so I wanna hit you back with something on that,

though, like you mentioned at the beginning of that, your family, your friends, the people that loved you the most and you loved the most, they all understood, right? Because they knew your maniacal self. And you were not alone. Yeah, no, there's a lot. And part of what I've talked about here is this, and again, I mean, you know, I've talked about this life

and this lifestyle and particularly the way that we did it, again, including Parcell said one time that this is like a narcotic and this is like a drug, man. And we ended up having people around us because we do stuff that's really dysfunctional. The number of weddings that I missed, the number of births that I missed, the number of holidays.

And everyone just said, oh, that's part of the lifestyle. That's part of it. And people that love you actually start becoming enablers. And I come from a family of addicts. So I understand the difference. Got a couple of ophthalmologists in my family. It's, same, same. And, you know, unfortunately I lost my sister

to addiction last year. But I say that because there's this life and this lifestyle that is really, in certain ways, it's so healthy. But I'm looking at your eyes as you're sitting there telling that story, man, there's like this, it gets us, man. And then the people around us are like, oh, it's okay that you missed that wedding.

Oh, it's okay. One of the things, I swear, as I was, when we had our daughter, my wife and I were both 38 at the time. So we were, you know, late to start get to get married. And because I was married to the game first and, you know, he kind of married the game to Parcell's daughter. Oh, you know that?

That's a long story. Actually, I met her at work and she actually was working with my sister for years before. But anyway, I'll never forget thinking, okay, I'm going to normalize myself. There's certain things I'm not going to miss. I'm going to make sure that Mia's first day of school, I'm going to take her to school kindergarten. We're going to take her over in Rentham. And I had all these ideas.

And this game grabs you at the moment. You know what happened the night before her first day of school where I was going to be a good dad, it was the three of us were going to go to school? Spygate. Spygate. Guess who didn't take little Mia to first day of school, kindergarten?

Yeah. This game, it sucks you in, man. You know what I mean? And we find reasons to justify the behavior. Anyway, I don't mean to head down, but it's true. And you long for it. When it's gone. You want it.

Yeah, you always want what you can't have. Yeah, and the Super Bowl thing, man. Yeah. It's never enough. It's never enough. It's like a drug. It is. And it's almost almost you hear. I don't know if I like winning as much as I hate losing I Just you've you can relate to that right? No, I you said that

I've heard it before yeah, I I feel I live that like I live that I don't like winning as much as I just hate losing Like you love winning, yeah. Winning's fun, but it's only a short fun. But the loss, I still think, 2016, I still think about the third down at a half time drop. Not the fucking catch. Everyone asks about the catch. I think about being the rah rah guy in the locker room,

this is gonna be a hell of a story and dropping the fucking third down when I could've kept it going. You know where I was working during that game, right? Where were you working on that game? Oh boy. Really, we're going here this early? You brought it up.

No, he brought it up. You know where you're working. You know where else you're working? I was working for the Falcons. I know exactly where you were working. I know you're- You blew up in my mouth, Jules. Yeah, that was a tough one.

Good for you though, huh? Not everyone can be winners. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. No, but tell us about another team that you're associated with, with this new women's soccer league that's coming here to Boston. Right there.

What is it? NWSL Boston, man. We have not given the team yet. No name. Team name yet. No name. Team name yet. Some people know it. It's gonna be announced coming very soon. That'll be awesome.

Yeah, yeah. It's, you know, there's this Jennifer Epstein who's the managing partner. It's owned by three women. And it's this NWSL, as you know, is booming. I've always been a huge women's soccer fan, even before the 99ers won the World Cup. So we have Brandy Chastain to talk about that game on here. Did you have to watch that? She's awesome. We love Brandy. She's unbelievable. Yeah.

Shout out to Santa Monica Surf. That's my little daughter's team. We got to get you guys going. Let's go. Big, big game. They had a big game, big turning last week. Let's keep it going. Effort and attitude. Wow. Effort and attitude. See, this is parenting from far away. I love it.

Effort and attitude. I can't be at home, but hey. Effort and attitude. You can't teach that. The skills will come. Absolutely. Absolutely. So this, so it was an opportunity, you know,

it's mostly the entire ownership group is women. And then I was connected with Jessica Berman, who was the commissioner league, is a dear friend from years ago, connected me with Jessica Gelman. I don't know if you remember Jessica, who was with us at the Patriots beginning in 2002. Yeah. Very involved in soccer. Anyway, so I've always been if you remember Jessica, who was with us at the Patriots beginning in 2002.

Very involved in soccer. Anyway, so I've always been, my two sisters, two older sisters, both played soccer, loved women's soccer. The studs. I mean, I was just at these little, like I go to, I'm talking about my daughter, but I go and watch these little girls

and I put her on this one team. And just to see the developmental of these little girls are reminding me of my like pop Warner teams and these little girls are studs I mean they're better than me I can't control the ball like some of these little girls and and the way they coach them the way it's teaching these little girls communication is teaching them you know accountability all the things I took from football, I'm seeing what they're learning in soccer,

which is so pivotal for these younger kids of this generation to play a team sport so you can learn that you need to rely on other people. And if you don't do your job, yeah, you're gonna be embarrassed by your teammates who are doing their job. So like there's all these little things that you get to experience in team sport.

I love soccer for girls. Yeah, team sports, soccer, lacrosse, I'm all about the team sports. And again, this is the thing, growing up, my sisters, they were mid, late 70s, early 80s, Title IX was a thing, but it wasn't really a thing. I mean, it's still not what it's supposed to be. And why shouldn't young girls have the same opportunities

to play in team sports, to be athletes, to do, and this is, you know, it's part of, I'm on the Women's Sports Foundation. These are all things that I believe in. I've, in the, a couple of years ago, the Women's World Cup that was in France, my wife, daughter and I were over there. We were in the past. years ago, the women's World Cup that was in France. Yeah, my wife, daughter and I were over there. We were lost.

Nice. Oh, but we won. We beat France in Paris and my wife and daughter and I were with that game. I was. Oh, dude, it was it. I thought I loved soccer and women's soccer. And after that, it was next level, Matt. It was this, it was the best non-football experience,

live sport experience I've ever had. I tell you right now, when I watch women's sports, it's almost like they're more fundamentally sound and they stay within the system and the scheme better than what men do. I completely agree with you. You know what I mean? Like they're, it's, if you want to install an offense

or something, you should just have women do it because it's going to be exactly how it's supposed to be ran. The, and the fundamentals are always going to be crazy strong. It's in basketball too. So we were fortunate when we were in KC, our daughter played basketball at that point in time. And every year they used to have the Big 12 championship,

not in the sprint center. They had it in the smaller, the old auditorium in Kansas City that they still have. It's all Art Deco. It's had more Final Fours than any facility in the history. And those were the Brittany Griner years. So we got this Baylor up there and our daughter was Duncan. But talk about fundamentals.

And Kim Mulkey was the head coach of Baylor basketball at the time. Their fundamentals, the passing, there's just something different. Yeah, and they're not five steps. It's fucking true. Girls, listen, guys over here, I'm going to get this one. You know, they try to bring in their athleticism.

But let's let's transition this to you were talking about training camps. I saw you went to the Patriots training camp. Yeah. Now, what are your thoughts on Gerard Mayo? When you draft, you were part of drafting Jerod Mayo. That was my last draft. Him, Jerod, and Matthew Slater, man. And Matthew Slater, two of some of the best football guys I know, like locker room guys, leader guys.

Now, when you drafted a guy like Jerod, could you tell that he had head coaching qualities? He had qualities, but you're not thinking at that point in time, but the qualities that he had in terms of his intelligence, his vision, his work ethic, he had learned some new work habits, but his communication, his ability to communicate, he had a lot of the tools, the skills, and the qualities of someone that could become a head coach. I don't think anyone of us were thinking, you know, could become a head coach. Did I think, I don't think anyone of us were thinking,

you know how it is in that moment, you're thinking about, hey, as long as he can get the other 10 guys lined up on defense and communicate the coverage and we're good. And that's what the middle linebacker does in a lot of our system. That's quarterback of the defense, so the communicating is probably key.

And that's what we've been hearing out of Kamp, that he's a great communicator with the players. He's got players perspective, but he also has a lot of the influence of what he was in. So I think it's gonna be awesome. What do you think about this Drake-May situation? So, my take on it is, if you don't have the right guys around him to let him flourish,

you know, unless he's significantly better than Jacoby, which I don't know because I'm not in practice. I can't see how he's calling mic points. I can't see how he's in the huddle. I can't see how he's, you know, digesting defenses that are harder than what they're seeing in the preseason. I can't see that. But once you put him in, you can't pull him. Right, exactly.

So when he's, you better measure a hundred times and cut once when you go to that point where he's going to go, because then if you're pulling them and then it's becomes a mind screw. I know, but then right now they get the media behind him right now because the preseason he was 13 or 10 for 13. You know, it's so maybe they feel that rush. It depends on how confident. But Jules, again, what's one of the important things about one of the most important things about the preseason is is it's a chance to evaluate players. When you evaluate players, you always have to look at things that you're not seeing as a fan views it. And that's, I don't say that to be offensive in any way. Did they get the right play call?

Did they get the check or miss the check at the line of scrimmage? Did they know where the mic was? As you were saying, do they, can they do, did they know that when there was something different happening that they needed to check out of the play that was called and go to another play, there's all those little details that matter. Do they know how to call the protection or help change the protection in order to give

themselves more time? And there's all these little details that, you know, can he call the goddamn play? Exactly. In a huddle. There's so many quarterbacks coming in now. And I'm not sounding like this old guy, get off my lawn. But there's a lot of quarterbacks. They just hold up signs on the sideline.

And everyone sees the play and everyone goes there. You don't have to come into a huddle and talk to 10 other dudes that are grown men. And there's a lot going on out there. And it's under pressure. It's not just how smart you know. The other thing is when you're evaluating, you have to consider the competition.

So when he was in games, how good was the competition that he was playing against? Because that had something to do with your ability to make decisions. And as you know. Vanilla, vanilla looks. And you're playing against twos and threes. So he did what you want him to do in the preseason.

You need to see execution. 10 for 13 is... That's what you want to see from your young quarterback. But he's not seeing a will-weak safety, exotic blitz, an exotic front. He's seeing literally four guys down, you know, your regular base fronts or your nickel fronts, which is, it's completely different than when a team is gonna sit there

and study everything that that kid hasn't seen. And they're gonna throw the whole kitchen sink at them until they see it's blocked. You know what I mean? And they know you're kryptonite. No one's game planning in pre-season games. No one's game. And you're gonna get game planned against

and that's one of the big things. And that's when you look for people's kryptonite and you go after it. I'm excited to see what this Polk and, Robinson, who's the other receiver for the Pats? Baker and Polk. Javon Baker from Central Florida. And and who Jalen Polk out of Washington. I'm excited. They've been making some decent plays.

I've heard some good stuff going on them. You just got to find some people to throw them, throw the ball to. And throw and him to throw the ball. This is. And you get this more than anybody. When you're developing a quarterback in this game that we're going to talk about is is all about these kind of things, part of the quarterback's development is, you know, you can't give him everything

and expect him to be throwing down the field the whole time. You know, Tommy had that one, you know, he had a year plus three games to sit the bench, and then when we brought him in, you know, the whole thing about Brady those first couple of years, ah, everybody can't throw the deep ball, ah, everybody can't throw the deep ball, we didn't ask him to.

Charlie Weiss, play calling becomes a critical part of player development. Tommy was doing everything short and sideways. The number of screens we ran, Charlie Weiss was one of the best screen coaches I've ever been around. Sidewalk. Thank you, yes.

Unbelievable. Unbelievable. And Tommy, the number of short sideways underneath his use of the slot, his use of the tight end, his use of the back, we're going to see it here later. He takes what he gives you. If you've got an open guy, give you a look past. He just wants to keep the offense moving forward, especially at this point of his career. We'll be right back after this quick break.

Hey, I'm Gianna Predenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadston. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like, how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or, can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes.

Each week, we answer your unfiltered work questions. Think of us as your work besties, you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in experts who do, like resume specialist Morgan Sanner. The only difference between the person who doesn't get the job and the person who gets the job is usually who applies.

Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it, like, you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah, rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together, we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

We're turning up the heat on the newest episode of All the Smoke. Vice President and Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris pulls up to the show to discuss her historic presidential run. Most people have ambition, they have aspirations, They have dreams. And they are willing to work hard. And if we give people the opportunity to actually meet those goals, they jump for it every time. Matt and Stack will be diving deep into the journey that brought her here, her vision for the future, and the real stories behind the headlines. Make sure you check out All the Smoke with Vice President Kamala Harris out now. Listen today on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So y'all, this is Questlove, and I'm here to tell you about a new podcast I've been working on with the Story Pirates and John Glickman called Historical Records. It's

a family-friendly podcast. Yeah, you heard that right. A podcast for all ages. One you can listen to and enjoy with your kids starting on September 27th. I'm going to toss it over to the host of Historical Records, Nimini, to tell you all about it. Make sure you check it out. Hey, y'all. Nimini here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Historical Records brings history to life through hip hop. Flash slam, another one gone. Fast bam, another one gone. The cracker to bat and another one gone.

The tit for the cap is another one gone. Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history. Like this one about Claudette Colvin, a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it! Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning into historical records, because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to historical records on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your

podcasts. Let's jump back into time. Yes. Let's jump back into time. Let's go back to January 19th, 2002. That's when this game took place, 2001 season, but 2002. That always messes me up. Oh, every time. And then college football doesn't do it like college football, like the bowl games or the year that it's played in, even though it's not. I know. It's a mess. This is the stuff that it's played in even though it's not I know

I'm mess. This is stuff that keeps us up at night. It's you number one movie was a beautiful mine great movie great John Nash Baby, yeah, that was a great movie. You got it bad by usher was the number one song Orange County the OC Jack Black or the movie movie with the Hanks is young. Yeah, not the chat one. Not yet How high M&M relief, are you M&M fan? Yes. Oh yeah, but here's the thing, the movies and TV shows. Forget it. I went through like a 30 year period, 20 year period.

No movies, no period. My family clowns me about it. Oh, you know, I got done and I was, oh, you know, people say, what was your favorite TV know, your favorite TV show? I'm like, Ash was a good show. Remember happy days? It's cause like once I started this business, like I, when I got done, I've watched like Seinfeld and all these, that was a funny show. I didn't see it until like 2020. I mean, that was a funny shot.

I thought you were a football guy, baby. Music, I was always on top of, because the players always had what was current, right? That's one thing, you're always up on the music. The music is here. Bears were saying he used to run the playlist for practice, is that true? Yeah.

Bears? Oh, yeah. How's his music? But again, remember when I was there, that was pre-playing music at practice. That came later on, yeah. I was there, we were, that was pre-playing music at practice. That came later on. Yeah, yeah. I'm old, man.

That must have been a wild day, the first day music got introduced at practice. I was there, it was always there. It'd be loud as fuck, you couldn't hear anything. Right, that started happening, right? Because my last year was the 08 season, and you came in 09. In 09.

And that was my first year in Kansas City. Yeah. But I remember, I'm gonna say this. So I was there for the December draft meetings. Yeah. Because I was running the December draft meetings. There's no coaches involved and the scouts are all coming in and we're putting,

and there was a scout that talked about this quarterback from Kent State. And again, I know there's, I've heard some stories, but I know when the name was brought up in Pager's draft meetings, Jim Nagy, who is the executive director of the senior bowl, brought your name up. I don't know what this guy is, but he's something.

Yeah. Talking about you, man. He's something all right. You know what? No, no. It is. Ha ha ha. That was it.

Please, please, please. I remember, you know. That was Jim's area. He was our Midwest area scout. Yeah. I don't remember him, but yeah, I just remember hiring my agent Don Yee. The best.

He's the best. I'm going to tell you my agent, Don Yee. The best. He's the best. I'm gonna tell you, I love Don Yee. I love and respect Don Yee and Steve Dubin as much as any agents in the industry. They're straight shooters. 100%. And they just let you do what you're gonna do and then they're not gonna force anything,

they're not gonna... They know their players and they know what their players want. They know what's important to their players. And it's funny cause Don and I had some interesting and some complicated conversations sometimes. Because Brady, we'll talk about Brady's deal cause I didn't get to do your deals.

So Brady's first deal was the rookie contract and I'll say this, unfortunately we were doing business at that point in time, not thinking long-term and relationships. It was a very bottom line way of doing things. And it was something Bill and I weren't comfortable with. So Tommy's first deal, he got less than he should have

for his slot. There wasn't slotting back then, but everyone knew what the slot was, wasn't called the slot. And we broke his shoes a little bit. Um, unfortunately, um, the people that were doing the contracts at that time. And then when it came time for Tommy's next deal, I was doing the next deal and then the next deal. And I'll never forget, we were at this one point in time, I think it was

maybe Tommy's third deal. It might've been, and Don and I weren't making progress. And we were trying to keep the team together, right? That was part of our thing. We didn't expect people to take home team discounts. We were hopeful that people would want to spread it and keep the winning because we felt high tides raise all boats and the more that we won,

there was all these other opportunities, marketing, et cetera, et cetera. And I'll never forget, Don and I couldn't get anywhere, and Tommy was getting annoyed because he was getting distracted. Not annoyed with anyone, he just wanted to think about ball. I'll never forget, one morning he comes up to my office, and he knocks, and he comes in, and he closes the door,

and he says, hey, can we talk about this contract? I'm like, Tommy, we can't have a negotiation. That's against the rules. We're not allowed. He goes, listen, we gotta talk. But he and I had a really good and close relationship. And he said, where are you guys at? So I told him where we were at,

told him where you guys are at. And he says, what's the drop dead number? I'm like, Tommy, we can't have this conversation. I gotta talk to Don about this. And I'll never forget, it was the deal with the Eastside, I wanna say it was the six year, 10 million a year deal. Think about that. Six years, 60 million, it was like,

and I'll never forget, I said, that's probably our choke point, but we're playing this game, Don and I, it's not a game, I shouldn't call it that. We're having this negotiation where one team's low, one side's low, one team's high, and you're trying to find the middle spot. I'll never forget, Tommy looks at me,

shakes his head, looks away, goes, if I can't live the rest of my life off of $60 million and my family, he says, I've got problems. He's like, get down on the phone. Like, Tom, we can't, we can't, we can't do this. He says, get them on the phone. We got on the phone and, and put it on speaker.

And Tommy goes, Hey, Don, it's Tom. He goes, Hey, how you doing today? He goes, and you know, Don's all upbeat and he goes, I got you on speakerphone. I'm in Scott's office. Dead silence, dead silence. He goes, and Don's like, what are you doing there? He's like, Don, listen, man, this is ridiculous. He says, I'm talking to Scott and I'm like sweating

because it wasn't a negotiation, he was just asking. And anyway, Tommy's like, listen, you guys just get this done. And I'm bringing this story up because I go back to Don. And anyway, Tommy's like, listen, you guys just get this done. And I'm bringing this story up because I go back to Don. Don and Steve could have made so much more money if they didn't do what their client wanted. And Don and Steve have left money on the table year after year after year after year

by doing what their clients wanted and Maybe not trying to talk their clients into something that would pay them greater 3% Anyway, I don't mean to make that a long story, but it's just I think the world of Don Yee Yeah, Don Yee's we call him the dragon, bro He just calm cool and collect Drake the dragon you can't call him that you know That's what Tommy, that's what Tommy told me to call and I wasn't going to go there. Yeah, there's only a select few that can call

him dragon. It's like in step brothers when they meet each other the first time. Remember that Dale? He's like, you can call me dragon. Great movie. Great movie. Did you watch that? All timer. Did you watch that last week? Get back in the sports world 2001 2002 Super Bowl champs Patriots go on do it after this. That was a good one Kurt Warner NFL MVP and from grocery bagger to MVP. How about that? That was crazy National champions were the Miami Hurricanes was Was that Ken Dorsey? And McGahey? Najee Davenport? I used to love those teams.

Heisman Trophy winner Eric Crouch out of Nebraska. How about that? Winter Olympics were in Salt Lake City. They had Olympics that year? Yeah. See what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

I saw all the Olympics this year. Yeah, but the Olympics have gotten, I think the ratings of the Olympics have gotten a lot better. Social media helps it a lot. Way more, because you can only watch it on one network. Yeah. Michael Vick was drafted one overall. Patriots drafted Richard Seymour. Yes. Hall of Famer Richard. Hey, do you know who he drafted right after Richard Seymour?

Who? Matt Light. Another. A steal. Richard hey, you know, we drafted right after Richard Seymour who? light another round a steal What's he stealing from you, you know what he's stolen from you. He's doing anything for you. We're still trying You got any Matt light stories? Oh my god. Oh My gosh, you call me one time with his voice throw thing from the Pro Bowl. Wait, the voice thing? He could like change his voice. Oh my gosh.

And left me a message. What did he say? Belichick. Oh, dude. He's such a tool sometimes. I have a great way to put it, but I'll tell you, the things he, so no, I'll tell you what. So I saw both Seymour saw him play live at the University of Kentucky the day before, I wanna say we were playing in Indianapolis that weekend, so that was one of my things.

We had road games, I would always try to go out and do a live game the day before, get into the hotel team meeting at the night. Saw Seymour and Stroud was the other guy, they were coming out the same year, they were both first round picks. Richard Seymour, when I saw him in person down on the field in pregame, he would do this thing

after they did the one-on-ones and all that stuff. He would go by himself against the uprights, the goalposts and the padded part and do this swat swim thing on it and swat rip. I learned from Steve Belichick, Bill's dad, the original Steve Belichick, about one of the things in scouting, you have to use your eyes and your ears. And he was teaching me how to listen to hear punters

and quarterbacks, you could hear the ball leave their fingertips. Stand behind and be silent, close your eyes, punters, you could hear punters and kickers hit the ball. Boom! One of the other things in doing that, that I learned was sometimes you can hear explosion, and you only got all these devices that measure.

When Richard Seymour hit that padded upright, it was a sound like a good golf hit or a good baseball hit. It was like the sound, I was like, oh my gosh. And then I saw, I was out at Purdue, the year Matt Light for practice. Drew Brees was the quarterback. He went to the Rose Bowl. Matt Light was energy, man.

Energy, but Matt Light, for his position, was like really undersized. And to have the career he had, like he's a big man, don't get me wrong, but he was short for a tackle. To have that, you had to be like a technician with your fundamentals and that's what Mount Light was. 100% and people didn't, people had him be,

that said that he was gonna be a guard in the end as well. He could play tackle because here's the thing, he was so smart. It's like anything, right? If you have some physical limitations, you find other ways, you figure it out. Whether it's, height-wise, he was shorter than the norm. Length-wise, shorter than the norm.

People are like, oh, they're gonna get the edge on him. But he was so smart, he was so good. Were there times he was on the edge? But he was a heck of a football player. One of the best. But here's the other thing about the whole Patriot thing that people don't understand. When you have players with limitations,

that's where great coaching comes in. And yes, Bill's, I will say, the greatest coach of all time, head coach of all time. But Charlie Weiss, Dante Scarneckia, those, and you know, in terms of protection and knowing who and when to protect based on matchups and situations and circumstances, and then having a quarterback

that knows how to figure that stuff out, and when and who to slide, when to chip, when to keep the tight end, and having those things helped Matt Light become a better player. That being said, when to chip, when to keep the tight end. And having those things helped Matt Light become a better player. That being said, without Matt Light, we can't do what we did. 100%. Terrific player. Anyway, we got him that year too.

So Matt Light told us a story about when he was drafted. I'd love to hear your side of that. It was how we screwed the Jets. Epic. I mean, it never gets old beating the Jets? Epic. I mean, let's hear it. It never gets all beat in the Jets, right? Never. Never. No, so here's what happened. So I just got a deal taken off the table to go to a Jets game because the Jets didn't want me there. No way. It's better that way. It was some company I was gonna go do some thing, go to the... New York hates me. I tried to go to a Knicks game once and I got some floor seats

What's his name? Nolan? Nolan or Dolan? James Dolan? James Dolan heard and took him away What? Yeah, because of the Celtics are coming in town. There's some shit. We'll get back to work That's that's dirty, you know, I just marked that here. Yeah. He's dead to me. That's to me. You know. It's a tribe, man. It's a family.

It's a family. It's a fucking evil empire. So Matt Light. So we're loving Matt Light. And we're thinking now we can get him in the second round. And we need a left tackle at this point in time. So we've kind of got him targeted and we are again, this is where I try and remember the numbers exactly 51, two, three in and around there and for 50 and we're the Jets are picking

right before us the pick right before us and about three or four picks before, we had this thing where part of the strategy, you always talk about the evaluation process, then there's the strategy, then there's the execution. So one of the things that we would do if there was a player that we wanted and we were targeting, we would call that player a couple of picks early if he was still on the board. And so I picked up the phone, called Matt, I said, hey Matt, it's Piole, how you doing? I had known Matt cause we'd done a lot of preparation.

You see his phone voice changes? His phone GM voice change right there, go ahead. And you gotta say it quiet, cause you want him to be quiet cause he's got people around. Like, hey Matt, this is Piole. I said, you hearing from anybody right now? Because we're thinking, we love that you're in range.

And he goes, oh yeah, as a matter of fact, he's back, call waiting, right? He says, I just had to click over. I saw it was you guys, I had to click over. I was on with the Jets. They're picking me when they come up. When you guys picking, I said, Matt, here we go. Hang up, but don't tell the Jets who just called him just say someone else just called in wrong number, whatever don't tell the Jets that I just called

He said okay. I said just trust me on this one. He hangs up. I hang up I look at Bill as it the Jets pick right before us. They have him on the phone They're holding because that's who they're taking so we got to move from once a from 51 to they're holding because that's who they're taking. So we got to move from, I want to say from 51 to 49. So we're, but I think it's at like 46 or 47 on the pick. So we start calling everybody before that, before the Jets pick, not getting any action, not getting any action. Call my boy Matt Millen at the Lions, who's one pick ahead of the Jets and say, Hey Matt, we want to move up. He says, yeah, our guy just went,, Matt, we want to move up.

He says, yeah, our guy just went, you know, give us a ham sandwich. We'll swap, we were moving two spots. Sure enough, we make the trade right before, right as the Lions went on the clock, call Matt Light. I said, Matt, they still got you on hold? He's like, yeah. I said, well, screw them.

We just traded up your New England Patriots. It was awesome. Number 4848. Yeah, yeah. I knew it was in that. Yeah. 48. Thank you. Geez. And the Jets took Lamont Jordan. Yeah. Running back Maryland back. Love front office. That's for now. I had to take 10th grade math twice. Right. But you give me a player. I'll give their hometown. That's stuff out. I had to take 10th grade math twice, right? But you give me a player, I'll give you their hometown. That stuff I know.

And 10th grade math wasn't really math, man. That was geometry. I liked geometry. Until we got to proofs and stuff, that's when I was fucking struggling. Until when the numbers, yeah, that's like pre-calc. Proofs, theories. I was probably supposed to be taking that

the second time I took geometry. Yeah. I could manage a salary cap. I wanna hear about that. We'll have to get into that. XFL was founded in 2001 now. Did you guys, when the XFL came, you're part of a player,

you're the head of the player department, player personal department. Do you guys assign a scout to look at these guys? Because I know we have regional scouts that take like, this area, this area, that area for college. When one of these new leagues comes in, like even right now with the USFL, are these teams having a department,

or a guy dedicated to looking at these teams? Probably a couple of people. So again, most of my, I had some college scouting background, but my scouting background as I came up, starting off as a slappy with the Browns and then working my way up was primarily pro personnel. So in pro personnel, two different departments for the, for the listener. Also there's pros, you have your pro scouts

that are scouting everyone in the league. So like free agency, this guy gets cut, this guy. And then you have your college scouts. They do all the college guys. Right, and then within college, you've got an area scout, you've got a regional scout, national scout. It's usually separated geographically. But in the pro personnel department,

again, where I kind of cut my teeth for the most part, we scouted the NFL and you had to do not only free agents, but you had to do the advanced scouting. So like during my time at the Jets, I was a one-man pro personnel department. I did every advanced scout for three years always on What's an advanced scout? So you go and scout every team. Every team is allowed to go see the team that they're getting ready to play. So if we're playing the Bills next week,

I can go see the Buffalo Bills, sit in the press box, and watch the game and view the game one or two weeks before, but you can only go one time. So advanced scouting was when you would go see your future opponent. So you're doing the advanced scouting. So that was one of the ways that mine and Bill's relationship really grew at the New York Jets.

So I was the pro director for three years. He was the defense coordinator. Anyway, so we watched the CFL, XFL. The other thing is, you know, the advanced scouting. So as a pro personnel guy, which goes back to the time that Parcell's mother F'd me and told me to just do my job was when he asked me a couple of questions about, he wanted to know who the gunner was,

the right gunner on the Detroit Lions, a team that we hadn't played that year, and I didn't know who it was. And he mother F'd me, he said, why don't you just do your job? Because if you were an expert in your job, you'd know who the right gunner is. And Bill, we didn't know who it was, and he mother-effed me. He said, you know, why don't you just do your job, because if you were an expert in your job, you'd know who the right gunner is. And Bill, we didn't play the Detroit Lions,

so that sounds like an excuse to me, a-hole. Anyway, so you need to know the league inside and out. Gosh, I love A's. So leagues, ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Oh, when abuse was allowed.

Yeah. Ha ha ha. So, yeah, you're doing the leagues, you're doing every league. And so that's a big part of it. Yeah, I mean, there's a quarterback. I'm sorry, so when you ask that questions, usually the pro personnel departments are understaffed.

So the entry level scouts that I hired, I mentioned some of those guys, Brian Flores was one of those, you know, Brian Farrant was, Monte Osenford, you know, Adam Peters, all these young guys when they came in, Mike Dissner, when they came in, part of their job was to do the college stuff that needed to be done in house. But I would give them some of the other leagues

to do that, to kind of train them and help them and get them familiar with writing reports and what to look for and what not to look for. So it was all hands on deck for these leagues. Yeah, it's crazy. You know, who's that quarterback? There's a quarterback that's a three right now. I just saw that came, he was the USFL.

PJ Walker. Martin Martinez? He's, I mean he's a backup on one of the teams right now. He's playing in the pre-season. I wanna say Martinez. But from the first round of XFL we had Rod Smart. Rob Smart, he hate me. Maddox.

Yeah, Tommy Maddox. Tommy Maddox with the Pittsburgh Steelers. Yeah, Tommy went, he was working backwards though. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he was flipx. Tommy Maddox with the Pittsburgh Steelers. Yeah, Tommy, he was working backwards though. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he was flip-flopping. Yeah. Or no, he was... He had an NFL and then left.

And then Slash got him. Yeah. But that was NFL Europe too. I mean, that was... You know what? I almost wished NFL Europe was around when I was a player. Hey man, that's how we... That was where we got to evaluate Joe Andruzzi.

Yeah, if I would have had like my first two years in NFL Europe, I would have got, I'd never been outside of the country at that point in my life. I was like, man, it would have been so cool to be in Frankfurt or somewhere, and play football. Let me ask you this though,

would the young Julian Edelman without the structure the Patriots have been able to handle? Yeah, because I wasn't there yet. I was a hungry guy and I was still hungry to make the team. You could still prioritize. Yeah, I could prioritize then. I was prioritizing.

I mean, I remember right when I hired Don and Steve, I went into such a crazy rigorous routine. That was like my first time. Because I was a quarterback. I never really lifted weights. I did all the running and everything. But like, I did everything where I cooked all my meals. I got up at five and I would go work out before class

in Euclid, Ohio, so I could, you know, get my fucking workout in. Then I'd drive back to Akron with Charlie Fry Ohio so I could get my fucking workout in. Then I'd drive back to Akron with Charlie Fry and I would throw with him because I had that dream. You know what I mean? And that was one of the biggest things for me when I was coming out is working with Charlie Fry

who was, he was a pro quarterback. So if you had a pro quarterback talking to you on what he wants to see a receiver do, I didn't know how to run routes, but if you have Charlie Fry coming over and saying, well, you gotta roll out and you can't have an out like that, there's too much time at the top of the route, or, you know, that helped me tremendously.

So I think I would have had, at that time in my life, been able to go to Frankfurt, because I still had that dream of playing the league. Yeah. You know? All right, so you just brought, I've been able to go to Frankfurt because I still had that dream of playing the league. You know? So you just brought, you keep saying things like better trigger on all these other thoughts. That's the whole point of the show.

No, the whole idea of like Charlie Fry, I am such a believer in player development. And when you got to the league, you had a quarterback who loved player development, whether it was you, David Gibbons, Deion Branch, all these guys who were certain types of people that worked and could pay attention, were willing, that have really strong work ethic,

he was gonna teach maybe some of the work habits. The idea of having a guy like Charlie Fry, a quarterback who was a true professional, and how important the quarterback's role is, along with the coaching staff. How important was that for you in terms of your development as a player being with Tommy?

Oh, I mean, that was huge. I would say the time away from the facility was the biggest part for me and Tom because he was at a different part of his career, my career, than when you saw him. He was already Tom motherfucking Brady. By that time. He wasn't Tommy anymore.

It wasn't Tom anymore. It was Tommy. This is Tom now. This is two years removed from 07. So like they had this electrifying air attack by then. And for me, it was so hard to gain his trust because he at that point of his career he's ten years in he's seen a lot of receivers so it took him time and he's no he's he's seen the situation where you know he

throws to a young receiver and the guy doesn't come flat to downhill and the DB undercuts it. And so he gets scarred and he remembers that. So for a younger player, if you ever get an opportunity to get a ball to you, you have to do a good thing. You can't fuck up the fundamental coaching point or whatever Tom said in the team meeting

or whatever he said to Wes, even if he said it to Wes or Randy, he's expecting you to listen. So, you know, it wasn't until I started training with him in the off season where he was learning my body behavior on how I got in and out of breaks. I was learning things that he would be mad at.

That's when we really, you know, started connecting. But that's part of the pressure, right? And this is exactly what I'm talking about. So it was the scars that you were starting to get from Tommy because he was letting you know what was acceptable and what wasn't unacceptable. And if you weren't, it's interesting because I felt like our entire team at different positions,

part of the Patriots magic was that players would run other players off. Yeah. And if you weren't buying in, but the fact that you bought in because you got scarred by Tommy saying, no, this is the way we're doing it, do it. But Tom has scars from previous receivers that have, so then it takes- High draft choices that we had. Yeah. Previous receivers that have, so then it takes. High draft choices that we had.

Guys who, two receivers I know that we drafted in the second round, different years, who had height, weight, speed, tools, but they weren't buying into the program. Then you get another second round like Dion Branch, who was all in on the program, and David Givens. And people forget guys like David Givens. And then so many of the players that came to us

that there was a way that we were doing business and the way that Tom was gonna do business. And if you did it, again, you became part of the tribe. Yeah, and I always tell people that, everyone talks about this Patriot way thing. I'm not a fan of that. I'm not either, but when you have to define it, I define it like this

Bill and the coaches were basically Congress They made the fucking rules. They made the laws. It was up to the players to go out and police them so they were like the sheriff's and stuff, you know what I mean, because They were put they put the rules in place But you didn't have to tell Tom Teddy Kevin Falk you didn't have to tell Tom, Teddy, Kevin Falk, you didn't have to tell them what to do. They were police, they got on the motherfuckers with the variables. They got on guys if you weren't doing

or holding up to your standard. And that's what everyone talks, it's just accountability. Accountability on a level where you're embarrassed if you don't do your job, you're gonna get ridiculed and guys are gonna give it to you if you didn't give your 100%. If you gave 100% and you didn't get the job done, guys will feel for you.

But if you're not doing everything it takes to get the job done and you fuck up, that's when a guy is gonna fucking go in and destroy you. Multiple guys. You're nailing it, Julian, and that was part of it. And in the early years, you know, we moved into the new stadium and the lockers were done numerically.

That one set of lockers where you came in that one main door, not the one by the train room. Willie McGinnis on one side, Teddy Bruski on the other. Then you had Izzo and then you had Vrabel. You had, and you had to walk the gauntlet. Yeah. And if you were late, if you screwed something up, I mean, there was a time, you know, Izzo used to have his own,

there was, Brad Sealy would have the special teams meetings. But before Brad Sealy's meetings, there was the meeting before the meeting. And certain players, veteran players, would have their own meetings. And there would be like a fine rule, the player fine thing. I know we're not allowed to talk about this.

It's something that used to exist everywhere. Where Bill, you know how Bill always asks those questions you know, in meetings. And if you didn't know the answer to the questions. When is they coming in this scouting report? You better know. The kangaroo court of players would fine you and they would collect and the players,

you know, there was a couple that I won't name all of the players that were involved. They know who they are. This is two CBAs ago. The league's gonna come down on us, go fuck yourself. But the league's actually gotten a little cooler. This is where. Very much.

We love the league. But this is where it got sticky. So there was this whole fine system and Larry Izzo would have special teams meetings before the special teams meetings. Rookies, practice squad players, they had to show up for these player meetings that were going on. And if you didn't show up and you screwed something up, there was these fines. So there were these players that collected the fines and I was aware of the fine system.

And what happened was there was a game again, certain players remain unnamed, had a big play. And after the game and the interview says, yeah, I just got myself a Ben Franklin, meaning that he was getting $100 from the kangaroo court, that is the locker room kangaroo court. But Lee starts an investigation. The real leaders of this group, the Bruskies, the Vrabels, and they were the collectors,

and then there were the redistributors. But here's what happened. The league started an investigation because they had found out, they heard this, and the redistribution of money, even though it was for all good reasons, all good purposes, all, if you're redistributing money, they said that falls under the bounty rule.

Yeah. But our players, and you know this locker room, here's the thing, our players were never about hurting somebody. Never, no. It was never that kind of crap. Or a good block. Yeah, a big block, right?

It was that kind of stuff. But the league, so I ended up getting fined. Because I was aware it was unbelievable. Just another gate. I don't know if we can put this. Just add it to the gates. But again, the point in that is I remember talking to the folks in the league saying,

here's what you don't understand. This kind of accountability is what this team needs. This is peer accountability. This is people holding one another to a certain standard, and you're gonna break up this kangaroo court that really is a core part of the fiber of our locker room. It's camaraderie. Yeah.

I hope we cut that guy for running his mouth to the media about the Benjamin Franklin. We didn't. Oh! We didn't. I did. Oh, we did. And I remember it was just stoop. Kangaroo court. You got to have it. Yeah. You know, then by the time I got there, we just made like sweatshirts and shit with slogans on it.

Yeah. Like a special team unit. I have like a fighter pilot. Wasn't Joe Judge a sick fashion designer? Joe Judge is always designing some shit, bro. I mean, Joe, we don't need another fucking hoodie. But let's jump into these Raiders, break them down. Raiders. We don't you mean the

raiders? All right, let's get into these Raiders. These are John Gruden's Raiders, the second seed let's get into these Raiders. These are John Gruden's Raiders, the second seed in the AFC this year, 11 and five. Speaking of European football, John Gruden right now, advisor to the Milano Seamen. Milano?

That's right. Is that, it's Italy? Yes, yeah, it's, well, so look at you, well done. And it's the C-S-E-A. C-men. Two separate words, not semen. Trident type vibes, yeah. Semen, you're Laird Hamilton's if you will.

That's watermen. Oh, watermen, watermen, watermen. Back to these raiders, sorry. C-men. And this was Bill Callahan was running the offense, the OC this year. Callahan, his son's a head coach, right? Yeah, yeah.

Look, I always love going in, I love going down these old games, and then you start to see the lineage of who comes from where. Bill Callahan, one of the best offensive line coaches. All-line coaches, all time, man. One of the best. I hear that all the time.

Speaking of great coaches, Fred Boletnikov was running the wide receivers. You know, it's not bad having a coach with an award named after him, come on now. David Shaw, you remember him at Stanford? Head coach for all those years, quarterback coach? Chuck Bresnahan, don't skip that name, because Chuck Bresnahan worked at the Naval Academy

with Bill's dad, and then was actually a quality control guy with us at the Browns under Bill. Rez. Shout out to Rez running the defense DC this year. Crazy. And they brought in talking about pro personnel Jerry Rice in the office. A 39 year old Jerry Rice. He had a thousand yards at 40.

Insane. Insane. In nine touchdowns. This is 2001. Couple of gold jackets. Unbelievable. Joey Porter was no slouch either. No. No baby. Charlie Gardner like we already talked. This is 2001. Couple of gold jackets. Unbelievable. Joey Porter was no slouch either. No. No, baby.

Charlie Gardner, like we already talked. I love Charlie. This was a great veteran roster. Rich Gannon. This team started out hot, 10 and three. Who was their defensive guys that you had to worry about? Oh. You always look at this Raiders team

and you think of the Gruden Raiders as an offensive juggernaut. Rod Coleman was a really good player, I'll tell you. And Chris Cooper was an interesting player. He wasn't a top name, but he was a situational guy that was a bit of a handful. Grady Jackson, outstanding. Reagan Upshaw, Elijah Alexander.

Those guys, Beakert was a heck of a player. But again, the corners, are you kidding me? Eric Allen. Eric Allen. Right, and Charles Wood me? Eric Allen. Eric Allen. Right, and Charles Woodson? Woodson. Come on. The young Charles Woodson.

Yeah, so they were a good. My teammate, we do Fox kickoff together. Oh, is that right? Yeah, he beat me in a tug of war. Fucking guys still got it. Wow. We did this finals thing, we went on a Fox recruit trip or a Fox retreat trip and we got down to the final two guys,

it was me and Chuck and you had to be on a stump with the fucking tug of war pool, whatever. And he's got good length. He did like a little fake thing and then he lengthened me. Oh. That is a good one. You like that real quick. And it got me off the stump.

So he got in your head. Nah, yeah, I don't know. Cause he started pulling, I was letting it go. Cause you know, you pull it, you let him go and then maybe he'll go back. There was some, he kinda, he got me. Wow. It's kinda like the old Terry tape.

Mine. It is full mind game. Fucking. Right on the Terry tape. Office linebacker. Yeah. Sometimes you have to play mind game. Shout out Reebok. Reebok. Terry Tate office line. We had a Terry Tate jersey. That was during the big Reebok thing. In the draft room. What I would do for that jersey. Oh my goodness. I might still have it. Oh man. As you guys see there's a lot of stuff that I brought in here. I mean, did you have one of these books

dedicated to these raiders, or is this just straight general manager? Not a full book, not a full book. You know, this is the weekly game plan and stuff. Now, we'll jump into it. How do you prepare, what do you do during game week as general manager when you're jumping into a playoff game? Like, what's your day-to-day role? Is Bill giving you certain things to look at, What do you do during game week as general manager when you're jumping into a playoff game?

What's your day-to-day role? Is Bill giving you certain things to look at or are you giving Bill to certain things to look at? When it comes to, in the role that I was at at that point in time, we had pro scouts that were responsible for the advanced scouting, which would have all the information on the team and that would include signals.

And I know that's gonna trigger some people, but here's the signals that we all had to do, the personnel groupings, right? Because back in the day, there wasn't the helmet to player communication. So as, you know, one, one, one, you know, or- He's talking on defense. No green dots, no green dots.

So you would have to get the offensive, identify who the coach was on the sideline as the advanced scout person, identify who was the coach on the sideline as the advanced scout person, identify who was the coach giving the personnel grouping signals, because that was just time, right? So actually during games in my decade with the Patriots, I sat in the booth right next to Ernie Adams

and would identify the personnel groupings. Whether it was regular, whether it was 12, whether it was 22. So we could match the defense. And it's gotten different, I think, by this time, where the defense has time to match. Right. But I don't know if it was like that back then. No, so if I would see one-one-one,

that was usually regular. So if I would see that in the game, I'm set regular. So we would know what defensive personnel have on the field. If they were going 13, you know, or three receivers. It's funny because I still have it in my hand. 13 for us was always three tight end. Well, sorry. 11 would be.

11 was three receivers. Sometimes it flops on offense. We had colors in Cleveland. Yeah, red, blue and all that. Yeah, yeah. So that was part of what I would do. But really what I would do during the season is, again, just do your job.

My job was looking at players for the draft, looking at players. What I would do every week when we were getting ready to play the Raiders, for instance, I would be looking at all their players during the week that were gonna be free agents that off season. So I was doing the early work to prepare for free agency so I would have my evaluation done.

But during the season, and during this season is a perfect example, you have injuries, you have things going on, there's teams that are cutting players, you're having to pay attention to the roster. This year alone, I want to say it was in November of this season, 2001 season, where we moved on from Lee Johnson, our punter, and brought in Kenny Walter. You know, Kenny Walter, people don't realize how important he was for that football team and this team that beat the Raiders and won the Super Bowl, not only as a punter, but as a holder. He was our holder. So, you know, where'd he go to school?

Where'd he go? Did he? Kent State? Did he go to Kent State? Oh, come on! Oh my God, I didn't know that. Kent State guy, yeah! So here's a funny story.

What? How did that happen? He was a, you know, fact check me there, but... He's from Cleveland, Ohio. Well, here's the deal. Kent State. Kent State! But here's the thing. Kenny, Kenny was a ball boy for us at the Cleveland Browns. He's from, well, here's the deal. Kent State. Kent State. He was a, but here's the thing.

Kenny, Kenny was a ball boy for us at the Cleveland Browns. This was one of the things that we used to do. We would bring in guys that were either high school or college punters and backup quarterbacks to be an extra arm in practice. And also to be an extra leg for punting. So Kenny, so that was part of what I would have to do is we were paying attention to the roster.

That was my job. I'm not a coach. You know, coaches did their job. They did, I always had to make sure that we had eyes on the players that could improve the roster during the season. Let's jump into that Cleveland Browns. Like how was that operation?

Because that's where you got your start. As a slappy. As factually known as the slappies. See, I'm not the only one who says it. You know, I call these slappies. As you know, it has a different name, but we're just. Oh yeah, it's slap dick. Yeah, that's podcast.

It's podcast, yeah. Yeah, but we do this. You know, like how was was is that where you guys basically developed your formula and that book that you have right to the right of you and how to scout and and and what a team supposed to look like literally at every position where you guys starting that in Cleveland and then the band broke up and then you reunited in New England and that's kind broke up and then you reunited in New England

and that's kind of where you, did you just? So, again, in Cleveland I was an entry level guy. I had coached for four years. I knew Bill back when I had met him when I was in college. I was a sophomore in college, I think. He was a defense coordinator at the Giants. We cultivated this relationship, we stayed in touch. So when he got to Cleveland, he hired me

and I wasn't sure if I was gonna be a quality control guy or scouting. I ended up being in scouting. And the manual that we put together for the Patriots was very, it was different. And it was different from the rest of the league because scouting at that point in time, there was a base formula of what scouting was about.

And it was this, and it had grading systems that were all very similar. But what a lot of teams did, they scouted really based on the league, right? And one of the things that I remember happened during the time working with Bill, having known Bill again for as long as I did personally, and before I went to working with Bill, having known Bill, again, for as long as I did personally and before I went to work with him.

One of the interesting things was when I got to Cleveland, there weren't that many people on the staff and within the entire football operation that had actually worked with Bill. Al Groh was our linebacker coach for a short time. Nick and Bill Saban knew one another, but Nick had actually worked with Bill. Al Groh was our linebacker coach for a short time. You know Nick and Bill knew Saban knew one another but Nick had actually worked with I want to say with Bill's dad at one point in time. So there were and Ernie. Ernie had worked with Bill. So and Ernie one of my all-time favorite people. I'll tell you a

cool Ernie story a little later on. So there weren't that many people that knew Bill, and part of what happened with the scouting was we were big on tools, like a lot of teams, height, weight, speed. And anyway, as important as that stuff is, I think Bill's operation's different in the sense that some people think it's really difficult, I don't think it is. Really his big rules when we were in Cleveland were be on

time, pay attention, work hard. If you do those three things, it really kind of manifested itself in every way for the program 30 years later. So there were some things that we started I, to realize that were more important and weren't really a big part of our player acquisition and our player evaluation in Cleveland that we didn't focus on enough, that we focused on quite a bit more. And going to that manual that I brought, you know, that was Ernie and I... Can you pick that up and show how big these are? Here you go sports fans.

When you look at it, a lot of scouting manuals are like that thick. And it's like, I think sometimes people try to make this more complicated than it is. And when we got done, this is our entire scouting manual. And who developed this manual? Ernie and I. But, and here we go, here's the 2001.

I've got the original, I've got the original 2000, this is 2001. But really, you know, like here at the bottom, I can even say this without even looking, at the bottom of every page, every single page of this book, we're building a big, strong, fast, smart, tough, and disciplined football team that consistently competes for championships.

We weren't throwing this word salad out there that we're going to be champions every year. We were going to consistently put ourselves in a position to compete. And people say, well, what kind of players are you going to look for? Well, big, strong, fast, smart, tough, and disciplined football players. Right. And that's why I said to you as we were getting going here, you thought, Jules, you were that guy. I wasn't big, strong, fast.

You were strong, you were fast, tough, and disciplined. But here's the thing, if they're, or maybe you weren't tall, but you didn't play small. No, I didn't play small. And that's the thing, just because someone's height is in a certain level, doesn't mean they can't play big. Yeah, no, I get that, yeah, I believe it. So anyway, that's- I always argue that to everyone, is, oh, you're so No, I get that. Yeah, I believe it.

So anyway, that's- I always argue that too. Everyone's, oh, you're so small. I'm like, I'm 200 pounds. I'm not small. Solid. Right. And you think about it, in my matchup,

I'm going against guys that are anywhere from 175 on a low side, like a small corner, to 210. No one's ever really bigger than that. They're longer. And people love the big receivers, right? Height, weight, speed, receivers. But let me tell you something. Could you get open?

Always. The on branch got open. You guys are probably near the same height. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's true. Right? But think about it, we drafted Chad Jackson second round. And I'm not throwing shade at Chad. Shade at Chad, it's true. I mean, that's what you're. But think about it, we drafted Chad Jackson second round. And I'm not throwing shade at Chad, shade at Chad.

It's just the other things that were important weren't necessarily, he wasn't able to develop maybe like you did because he wasn't willing to do Beth-El Johnson. We took him in the second round. Big, tall, fast. So in building that and building the football team, we did a little bit more nuance than we had previously. In Cleveland.

Here was another thing that we had. So when Ernie and I literally sat in meetings together, when I tell you days upon days upon days, and we joke about it now still Ernie and I, that we didn't have a vacation that summer because we literally finished the scouting manual and typed that with a little help from Nancy Meyer, but I wanted it on my computer.

I was a little bit kooky about this. Just meaning that I want to put in details or I want to put in details. But the other person who really helped us was a guy who Ernie learned how to scout from and that was Bucko Kilroy, God rest his soul. Yeah, he talks about him. Ernie's guy. Ernie loves Bucko. I love Bucko Kilroy, God rest his soul. Yeah, he talks about him. Ernie's guy.

Oh, Ernie loves Bucko. I love Bucko. When we got there, we made sure, I made sure up in the scouting department that Bucko had an office. I learned so much from Bucko. Ernie learned from Bucko. The other person that Parcells tells me, the person that taught him scouting was Bucko Kilroy when Parcells was the linebackers coach

under coach Fairbanks a hundred years ago. And so Bucco had this big picture sense. He was part of building the blesto grading scale and the national grading scale. And there was, so we used part of that, but we tailored it to be organizationally specific For what we wanted every position the right guard had a description the left guard had a description the center did Every position had specifics and a lot of that came from Bill and the coaches we were working with

But then the other thing that we paid a lot of attention to is when we were building the team was making sure that we had players That were going to be able to respond to the head was making sure that we had players that were going to be able to respond to the head coach. Every program is different, right? Our way was our way. Bill's way was his way. That didn't mean that a player that couldn't be successful with us couldn't go somewhere else and be successful under a different... Hey, Pete Carroll won. Bill and Pete Carroll are in many ways different, but they both respect the game, love the game, and respect football people.

They did things differently. They both won championships, but stylistically, they could, they wanted different types of people. I don't know if I'm making any sense. I've got a question for you with regards to you guys having a different like grading system or a different thing you're looking at than the rest of the league when it comes to like drafting you're drafting against other teams So your board might look very different from 100%

How are you trying to find value but still get your guys in that draft room? I this is that is an awesome question because we ran a two gap defense when we were first there still so the way that we Valued but when they started playing a little bit more were first there. So the way that we value, but they started playing a little bit more, yeah, yeah, but what we valued in terms of defensive linemen and or outside linebackers, Mike Grable was more valuable to us than some other teams. You know, the big noses that could truly two gap guys,

that was a different value. Love that. Which for our, here's the crazy thing. When we first started, that actually played to our advantage because there was a lot of players that other teams weren't interested because they didn't fit their philosophy, their circumstance, their situation,

how they wanted to do things, but they fit for us. Yeah. And part of what I hope we get into here is talking about that 2001 free agent crew where we signed 23 free agents for a total of $2.5 million in signing bonuses. Wow. You see, and it's not like, you know, it's players that were throwaways for other organizations.

My generation would be the Rob Ninkovich's, the guys that, he was a long snapper. Who else was someone? We always got other treasures or other guys trashed. One man's trash is another, that was a phrase he would say internally. Welker, but he was ballin'. He was ballin' in Miami.

He was just startin' to, yeah. We ended up trading, I think it was the second round pick for him. But Roman Pfeiffer, Bobby Hamilton, there's a great, Bobby Hamilton and Anthony Pleasant. Two guys that were linear type built, high hip, they really should have been one gap type of guys, which AP was when he came out of Tennessee State.

Bobby Hamilton, both of those guys were such good technicians and they were rule followers and they did exactly what they were supposed to do. Rule followers. Rule followers. When I say rule followers, I'm talking about rule followers when it comes to your job on the field and playing disciplined football. But there's always one special guy. Like Lawrence Taylor, he wouldn't necessarily follow the rule, but he was never wrong

when he broke the rule. Jamie Collins did that for a few years where he would break a rule, but he would make an interception or sack fumble the quarterback and pick it up and run for, like there's those exceptions, but rule followers are usually. Yeah, and again, when we say rule followers,

you talk about it's more scheme. In their job. Yeah, in their scheme. Exactly right. So like, if you're a defensive end and we're playing against Russell Wilson, you can't get past the quarterback. You gotta keep him in the pocket so he delivers the ball in his weakest area

across the middle of the field. If we give him a gaping hole and get behind him and we're trying to run the hump as a defensive end and we're not getting pressure from the middle of the pocket, you're just giving this guy a running lane or a throwing lane. So like those are the things that we're talking about when it's a rule follower.

You know, like that's why a lot of times DNs would come to our team when I was there, we'd have guys sign, they had big sack guys and they would hate coming to our system because we didn't necessarily do that. We set the edge, we would make the quarterback make the throw and try to get that pressure in the middle of the pocket and play to our corners

and our safeties and there was so much more for the flow of the defense to execute than just try to take the quarterback out with the defensive end, which you can, but that guy can also run, like that's why you have these third and 20s where a quarterback takes off and runs. And the rule followers weren't robots either.

No. Because, you know, Brian Cox was not, he followed the base rules, but he played nuanced defense. He knew when to take chances, how to take chances. Same thing with Raves. Again, Roman Pfeiffer. It's like Hightower for us and the Jamie Collins and the Rob Ninkovitches, which they're all,

they're kind of same guys. If you look at their- Willie McGinnis. Willie Mack. Willie did what he was supposed to do. Set that edge. When he was supposed, oh, that dude. Long arm.

And those hands. He had, similar to Carl Banks, and I've never found the word. Which we're getting into the New England Patriots right now. But go ahead, we just keep going. Willie had a strength. The hands. From his fingertips to his elbow.

And I remember the first time I noticed it and saw it and watched up close it was Karl Banks. Karl Banks had this ability you know Karl's a thin linear lean guy and had this length but this hand strength and grip strength, how like you got which is why you could catch the ball. He had this, what I called snatchability, where he could grab someone and get separation, but without having to do this and get his shoulders out of whack, he could snatch a guy like this. And that was such an important part for guys

who had to set the edge. Willie McGinnis had that same thing. Willie had rare strength. And why that's so good is because when you shed a blocker and you're out here, your feet are in a different area, so you can only go one way. If you can hold the guy and have that grip strength right in front of you and you can slash him

or you can slide him with just your wrist or whatever, you have two ways to go with your feet so then you can make a play. Exactly. And if you're setting the edge and I'm the right side and I get to shed a guy on the inside, but if I have to do this, that little bit, they get the edge on you.

So. It's a fine line and that's like a big rule on our team. Don't get out of position. I heard set the edge, there's no edge. I mean, cause we do all the film in front of everyone. And there was one time, it was an interesting team chemistry thing too, and again, this is not throwing shade at a player

where we went outside of our system and signed Adelius Thomas, who was a big free agent at that time, a really good player, tremendous player in the Baltimore Ravens system. And the Ravens system, I think Rex Ryan was the coordinator at that point in time for the Ravens, and things were different. Where he had to come in and do our things,

that was a mistake by us because we brought in this tremendous talent who wasn't the right fit scheme-wise, he wasn't the right fit locker room, the chemistry with him and Vrabel, and it just wasn't right. So sometimes just finding the right tools and the right makeup is a critical part

of the team chemistry. Team chemistry is everything. It can't just be the extrinsic tools, it has to be the intrinsic tools for that heartbeat to go. Yeah. Jackie, can you break down these Patriots? Yeah, that was Rex Ryan by the way. Even a blind squirrel man. Hey, don't ask me the Pythagorean theorem though man. A squared plus B squared equals C squared. Yeah, that's the only one I know. Don't care about that. I care about coordinators and where they were in the early 2000s, baby. Uh, let's get into these Patriots, huh?

All right. 11 and five, the second seed. This was an, this coaching staff rocks. Bill Belichick is the head coach, baby. Charlie Weiss, OC, DC, Romeo, Cranel, RC, all time guys. We talked about some of those notable rookies earlier, Richard Seymour, Matt Light. This was Brady's second year in the league.

And just to flash back a little bit, prior to this season, Bledsoe gets the 10-year, 103 million dollar contract. Mayhem. That's a big one, eh? That's a big one. Yeah. What's that look for?

No, that was a huge contract. It was the first $100 million contract in the history of the... And that was actually agreed to before we came in 2000. Oh. And again, it was agreed to and it was something we were married to.

And from a cap perspective, it became really complicated to try to work around. Yeah. At that time because it was such a huge portion of the cap at the time. And Brady would take over in week two after the Mo Lewis hit that we all remember against the Jets on week two that year. Brady would go 11 and 3 as a starter in the regular season. And this was, as Scott talked about earlier, the all time, maybe the most impactful group of free agents to come in that season.

Just to name a few, we talked Brian Cox, Mike Compton, Mark Edwards, Damon Hewer, Larry Izzo, David Patton. Patton Chief. Roman Pfeiffer, Anthony Pleasant. Love my guy. Love David. Unbelievable. Would you say, is it fair to say, this is probably the most impactful group of three agents. Two more, Sam, they're worth saying.

Antoine Smith and Mike Rable. Yeah, that list goes on and on. It was a big part and it was not only who they were and what they were, it was the price. Again, it was all these players that other teams didn't want or didn't value like we've, I mean, Larry Izzo. I'm gonna say this. I think one of the most important free agents

of that entire class, Mike Compton. And Mike Compton has not talked, I get emotional talking about Mike because I loved Mike. So I was a GA at Syracuse when Mike played at West Virginia. And I saw Mike Compton, Adrian a GA at Syracuse when Mike played at West Virginia. And I saw Mike Compton, Adrian Morrell, the two starting true freshmen. Mike Compton was a hell of a football player, brilliant.

If any of you guys have met Mike, Mike sounds real country. And he's, you know, I think he's, people don't realize how smart he is. So I, as a pro personnel guy, had watched Compton his whole career at the Lions. Compton had started legitimately at left tackle, left guard, center, right guard, right tackle.

He had started, I want to say double digit games or close double digit games at all five positions. He was primarily a center, all American at West Virginia, tremendous player. And when he became available, I want to say we gave Compton like 200 grand to sign. But here's the thing. It's so funny when I listen to people

talk about these early teams and how much they don't understand some of the truth and the accuracy. Mike Compton, our starting center was Damian Woody. Woody. Right? Do you know that every time that we went into shotgun that season, including this game, Woody had to move to left guard

and Compton had to move to center. Couldn't do the snap? Because Woody couldn't shotgun snap. He had the knob blocks. Remember, you guys are young. Yeah, the Yips. No, no, no, second base Yankees. So Woody couldn't shotgun snap.

So every time, Mike Compton's value to that football team and his, you know, our two starting centers. The more you can do. The more you can do. That's what Bill said to me when he hired me. The more you can do. He just looked at me and I thanked him. He says, don't thank me. Just remember, the more you can do, the more you can do, that's what Bill said to me when he hired me. The more you can do. He just looked at me and I thanked him, he says, don't thank me, just remember,

the more you can do, the more you can do. And I was like, oh, okay, I didn't know what the heck he meant. Value. Exactly. The more you can do, the more value you bring to a team. Amen. So those guys, like a guy like Mike Compton for 200 grand, the fact that he was so smart

and could shotgun snap, he's the reason we could go to shotgun that year. Now, but can I add one other thing there, not a fun fact, but another fact that was, you have the Terry Glenn suspension. There was another awful, awful, the chaos that surrounded this football team during training camp,

not only because of Terry Glenn suspension, but our quarterback coach, Dick Rabine, God rest his soul, wonderful coach. Passed, right? August 8th of that year. Yeah. August the third or eighth it was, and had a heart attack.

He was running on a treadmill, it was a day off, gets hospitalized, they think he's gonna be okay and pass the next day. And that was Brady's position coach, right? That was blood, he was the quarterback coach, good friend, he was a big reason why we also, he was with the Giants prior to that, prior to being in 2001, he knew David Patton inside and out because David had been with the Giants previously.

So this is where it was important that we not only knew the players, but we knew the makeup of the players, where we used this village of people to gather and collect information. So the number, yeah, and Terry Glenn's suspensions, plural, it happened, I mean, there was so much chaos, and what had to be overcome that entire season was, and then Drew getting hurt, I mean, it was so much chaos and what had to be overcome that entire season was it was and then drew getting hurt

I mean it was a lot man. Yeah, I mean we'll get into that that whole decision and everything But I really want you to when we come back to Boston just because this episode is amazing I really want to have you come back up another time and do the Patriots Browns ninety ninety five Browns, 95 Super Bob playoff round. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I remember that. One of the last times the Browns won a playoff game. We have seen that football life. Real quick Nick Saban thing. So at that time the

slappies at the Browns were Phil Savage, Jim Schwartz, myself, and George Kokinas. And Nick invites us over for what we think is going to be a barbecue. St. Nick, right? He brings us over. We get there and Miss Terry, his wife, who's like the best. Legend. They got all these trees lined up. They wanted us to dig holes and plant trees.

You can't even make it up, man. Oh my gosh. So we were like gun shy. So we got invited over for Easter Sunday dinner. George and I are like, are we sure we want to do this? Is the ground might still be frozen? Oh, I hope you didn't have your Sunday best on. Miss Terry.

Jesus. Holy smokes. Fucking saving. Was he still eating his little Debbie's back then? Oh, he's a little Debbie guy. I'm playing freeze man. There's Terry. Jesus. Holy smokes. Fucking Saban. Was he still eating his little Debbie's back then? Oh, he's a little Debbie guy. He loves little Debbie. I was a hostess kid. I was in anything kid. I mean it was.

You're on. Well whatever was on sale. Exactly right. All right, Jackie let's get into the game lead up. Let's get into the lead up this game. Wrapped up the Pats. Patriots were coming off a buy. They had the second seed. So they got a bye. Oakland had to get in the wild card round Crush the Jets after losing to him in the final week of the season during the day pretty clear weather cold but clear

Then as nightfall comes that thick thick thick stuff starts falling big old thick flakes And this was believe it or not, I believe, the NFL's first ever prime time playoff game. Wow. Which sounds nuts. Crazy, right? They were always in the day? Yeah, up until that point, we got to quadruple check that.

But after three checks, it's what they're saying, which is nuts to me. And in a building, that would be the last game at Foxborough Stadium. Scott, was it as gross as people said it was? I don't wanna say gross, but as bad. It was pretty bad. Pepper Johnson, our defense line coach.

Oh, Pep, I had Pep. So Pep was down in his meeting room, because there wasn't enough meeting rooms, was the visitor's locker. And there were a couple of some, we couldn't determine if there were rats or mice, but it was kind of like Michael Jackson, where he had names for the rats.

Pepper had a couple of the rats names. But a couple of things on these facts. So you talk about the bye week. What's crazy was we had a bye week before our final regular season game. I want to say the Panthers last season. Because of the September 11th season. Jules, see, that's the other thing.

Yeah. September. Thank you for bringing that up because I meant to bring that up. You're a New Yorker, so how did that hit you? That was, I mean, for anyone that's a custom or anyone close to that city, especially then being a Patriot and then the run you guys are going on like this had to have some

This is for America. It was so The whole we'll talk about this a little so my hometown I grew up in Washingtonville, New York my my hometown is one of the one of those 1960s white flight communities where in the mid-60s a lot of white People were moving out of New York City. My dad's from Bronx, mom's from Queens. They were living in the Bronx. They moved out in 64.

This community of Washingtonville and Blooming Grove was filled with civil servants because city cops, city firemen, union workers really couldn't afford to live in the city and they wanted to move out. And my, yeah. Yeah, it's tough. Seven people from my hometown. Yeah, I'm sorry. City cops, city firemen, it was,

and then just so many people. Here's the crazy part. I wanna loop back to something we were talking about before. Remember when we were talking about the dysfunction part about this game being like a drug? I remember exactly what happened that morning, exactly where we were. There was something going on.

And I think it was, I think the conversation that Bill and I were having, Bill's office was downstairs in the old Fox Bar Stadium. We were upstairs and there was something going on. I think it was Terry Glenn related, and it was early in the morning, and it was intense. I was locked in, and I came upstairs,

and the mood felt weird, but I was so on track that I wasn't picking up, and this is where one of my shortcomings, there were times where I would get so focused so that I would miss cues. For the most part, I'm good at it, but this was one of those mornings I was missing cues. I came upstairs, walked past Nancy

and there was something going on. I went back downstairs. We're getting amped up, Bill and I. We have no idea. This had happened already. And I'm coming up the stairs and I walk by and I see everyone's looking at their TVs. And it was always a pet peeve of mine

when people at work would watch their TVs. Everyone's looking at TVs. And I walked by Nancy, I go, hey, is anyone working today? I said, why, what's on TV here? And I didn't see, because all the TVs were turned so you couldn't see unless you were, and it was other people in their offices too.

And Miss Nancy, who you know is the Swedish lady. Longest tenor patriot in the organization. She was there when Parcells was there as an assistant, then as a head coach. Miss Nancy just looks at me, she goes, Scott, you know what's going on right now? And this was apparently like an hour after this had happened.

And I said, what are you talking about? I'm not very patient. She goes, I think you better look at this. And it was September 11th. And I was like, it was one of those moments that kind of snapped me into like, I need to get a grip here because there's more to do. Anyway, it was a really weird kind of.

We all know where we were. I remember it, being on the West Coast and it was something that we'll never forget in our generation. This is our generation's Kennedy assassination. The next generation, they'll be thinking of COVID. And you know, like that was one of the things that we were 3000 miles away and it was like,

oh, this is crazy. Like it was just a scary time. You didn't know what was going on. The outlets of media were so much different in that day and age where you were just glued to a TV instead of nowadays. We all would have saw that and had a buzzer alert on our phone. You know what I mean?

And you would have known instantly. But yeah. My mind's going a million miles. Because all my buddies I graduated with, so many guys, they were city cops and city firemen. Their parents were. And that's what they were doing now. And it was, yeah, it was, it was.

So then it was what was that moment like then the first game back against the Jets, the Joe Andrews. He is like the whole couple of weeks of surreal, you know, because Joey's, Joe's brothers were city firemen and it was surreal, you know, and there was this whole thing. You're trying to focus on your job, yet your country had been attacked and you're trying to, you know, part of our program is you compartmentalize everything in order to get your job done. It's the blessing and the curse that we are. Right? And so it was tough.

When they came out and, you know, Joey, Joe had the flags, the flags, and it was just it was emotional on a lot of levels. Right. So did you guys feel going into this playoff? Did you guys have a like a feeling like it was bigger than the sport that the Patriots should win? Or I know the answer to that. You don't say it outside the track. Because like you're inside the building, you're not really thinking about all that stuff.

You're literally thinking about your game plan and stuff. But there's gotta be, there's guys talking in the locker room. So let's you and I give an honest answer here. Let's get, no, the reality is, right, you focus, you lock down, in the deep dark recesses, there's that thing playing around, of course we're thinking about it. Of course it's being talked about,

but you better not say it out loud. You can't say it out loud. Don't say it, because again, then you're not, and it's not even a fear of, for the players, it's not even a fear of building, it's your teammates too, you don't wanna. You don't wanna fluster a guy, you don't know how someone else is gonna react,

you don't know if someone will tense up too much. It'll put more pressure on a guy. So everyone kind of does, tries to do their own thing. Yeah. And, you know, it's funny, you mentioned too, the last game played at Foxboro Stadium. Here's a cool fact about that. The stadium, Foxboro Stadium was supposed to be demolished on December 23rd, the day after that last home game.

And they couldn't do it because we didn't know, you know, there was a chance we were gonna have a home playoff game. So that, Foxborough Stadium was amazing. That game, like we talk about this game, setting the stage for the Patriots, the beginning of the dynasty, it was also like such an incredibly emotional game.

It was 9-11. It was, we weren't supposed to be there. It was the snow. Last home game. It was the holiday. There's just like this whole thing. And then there's this one part, I'll never forget. You know, when we were up in the press box,

I'm sitting next to Ernie, and Ernie had towels with him. Ernie was always prepared. I don't know if Ernie was ever a Boy Scout. He was, wasn't he? But I bet he is the most prepared person. What were the towels for? Because inside the coach's booth,

the windows would fog up and steam up. So if there was ever rain or snow because of the heat inside, the windows would fog up. So Ernie's up there doing the windows is why he's watching the game curse. And Ernie is a great cursor because really Ernie gives a PG on games with names. But he, no, but see the thing is he's not, he's not a wasteful cursor. Right? Yeah. He, when he, when he swears he's gonna make it count. It's points of emphasis, oh yeah, and he makes it count. But there was some cursing going on

when he's trying to clean windows and do his job and look at things and be on the headset with Bill. But during that game especially, because the snow, you literally, like the game tying field goal, I don't know if any of us really fully saw the ball. The whole time. Yeah. Across the crossbar.

It was because it was a far away end zone and it was snowing. Yeah. Now, did Ernie have like, hey, go on the field early. Oh, we need to have the sevens. Or we need to have the like. Ernie. I'm telling you what. Ernie is one of my favorite people on the planet. Yeah. He.

So I'll tell you a quick story, Ernie's story, Cleveland story. It was my second, so I got to, no, it was my first year in Cleveland, 92, and there was like a group of us sharing this office, the Slappies, the Slappy Den, and it was one office, a small office for normal people. They had three of us in it.

And I forget, it was real early in the morning. Ernie shows up and it's March 31st of 1992. Started League New Year League. It's my birthday. Oh! March 31st. It's my dad's birthday. I saw it on their, yeah.

But you know who else's birthday it is? Ernie's. Ernie's. We have the same birthday. Ernie walks in and again, now mind you, I was just getting to know Ernie and Ernie's this guy that no one knew. Even those of us that worked with him early on,

he was this man of mystery, not international, man of mystery, just a domestic man of mystery. And he walks in, I'll never forget, and in Ernie he goes, so I see it's your birthday. And he puts a cupcake on my desk. It says, happy birthday. And walks out.

And you're laughing, but I'm gonna tell you this. From that moment on, Ernie was my guy. Yeah, that's so nice. Because that's part of Ernie. And you worked with Ernie, you moment on, Ernie was my guy. That's so nice. Because that's part of Ernie, and you worked with Ernie around him. Ernie doesn't always show emotion. He doesn't always show... Ernie has-

He is a dude, man. Yeah, I'm getting emotional talking about it. He is a dude. I love Ernie. I love his wife, Christine. I was at their wedding. It's like, that moment was one of those things. It was like, okay, here's this guy that,

and here's what used to piss me off, and Ernie knows that some folks used to clown him. Yeah. And I never appreciated that. Well, they just didn't know who he was. Right, because I think people were afraid of him, they were intimidated, and what do people do when they're, especially dudes, football dudes, right, they kinda,

it's, yeah, so that's like one of my favorite Ernie stories. From that moment on, I knew who Ernie was. He didn't know me, but he gave me a cupcake. He used to have this little place that he used to stop and he gave me a cupcake on my birthday. I mean, that is just, again, it probably sounds weird, but it's weird. That rocks.

What's it like, we love Ernie, and your Ernie impression. That's perfect. Spot on. How was watching this game, like what's watching a game like, a whole game like with Ernie? It's awesome. Killed a good fly on the wall.

So we literally sat next to each other in the coach for those nine seasons, every single game. And he's on the phones and he had a special switcher. So here's the thing, Ernie had his headphones, but he has special switcher where he could be on offense, defense or special teams, like the head coach. He had a head coaching headset, okay? But he also had the bat phone.

There's always, you know how they have the sideline to phone, the red phone, Ernie had the bat phone, it was right in front of him. And Ernie, so much of our situational football, and again, I don't know if this has ever been talked about, maybe it has, but so much of our situational football and Bill's attention on field, in game attention to situational football and potential situations was Ernie Anas. 100%.

And Ernie would say, hey Bill, don't forget XYZ. When it came to the wind, Ernie, because Bill's got so much going, it's not that Bill didn't know these things. He's gotta manage a lot of other things. He's doing so many things. That's why that in-game partnership along with the coordinators,

and again, not just offense and defense. So I watched this snowball game for the first time on TV ever before we were doing this. And there were just little things that you saw, like right before the overtime coin toss, they cut to the sideline, they show Bill, and who's talking with Bill, but Brad Sealy,

who's a special teams coach. Where are we gonna kick? And I know in that moment, in my mind's eye, I know that that conversation going on is not just Bill and Brad Sealy, it's Ernie Adams, on the headphones with Bill. So it's Ernie. Ernie's Batman, he's Alfred.

Oh, clearly you you said this before. Never. No, that's not standing. Spot on. You know, when Bill has to go out and do it, but Alfred is back in there. Hey, you got a guy over here, dude. Wow. Look at you. It's kind of kind of what it is. Spot on. You said you're not Wordman, but you just pulled Alfred out. That's movie word movie word.

See, I never saw the Batman movies. I saw the comic books. You gotta listen. I saw the old series back in, you know, when, you know. With the pow and the wham. Holy Toledo, Batman. Exactly. You gotta watch the Christopher Nolan ones.

We'll get into that. Around here, Jules is more of a Robin to our Danny Amendola, which is a Batman. There's a lot, I see I wasn't around for that time. There's a lot. I see I wasn't around for that time. There's a lot outside looking in. Who would you say is Batman? Kind of like not knowing Seinfeld. Right I don't.

There's certain things relationships of I was there for the first decade. Right. And then there's this whole second day. It is second day that I don't there's there's a lot of stuff I got to learn. There is but there's it's a lot of it's the same. It's different. It's second dig at that I don't, there's a lot of stuff I gotta learn. There is, but there's, it's a lot of it's the same. It's different, but it's the fucking same. The characters are the same, the names are just different, you mean?

Yeah, it's kinda like when Scar would go and we'd be, Scar. Scar and Ekyo would sit there and we'd be studying another team. All right, assholes, it's the same cars, just different license plates. Meaning the scheme is the exact same, just the number's different.

You remember the UOE? Dante is the best, man. So let's get back into this game. Hold on, before we move on, Ernie, just one last thing. I'd be a bad producer if I just didn't ask, because Ernie will never tell us. Do you know what Pinkstripe is?

Pinkstripes? You know anything about that? It might be a later on thing. It was in the junior jobs. You know how the certain family business is family business? It's family business. Family business. Acceptable answer, I just had to do my job family business. It's family business. Family business.

Acceptable answer. I just had to do my job to ask. I can't tell. He told me, but I can't tell. Yeah, he told me too. All right, Jackie, let's go. Come on. We gotta get in this. All right. Should we pop into the game here a little bit? I think we first got to talk, Scott, we love on this pod. We love ref talk. And because there would here a little bit? I think we first got to talk, Scott, we love on this pod. We love ref talk. And because there would be a little officiating nuance

late in this one foreshadowing. We got Walt Coleman for this one. Oh, Coleman. Oh, Walt Coleman, baby. Walt. Love you, Walt. Love you, Walt. Starting off on this one, scoreless first quarter,

Patriots in about first down in the first quarter. Then early to start the first quarter, Patriots in about first down in the first quarter. Then early to start the second quarter, a critical kick-catch interference leads to a some better field position for Oakland. They get on the board first with a James Jett touchdown. Seven-nothing, it would stay that way to the half. Now what are you thinking about right now when you're when he's going over these ways? Here's the thing what hits you in the head. when he's going over these things? When he's going over these things, here's the thing. What hits you in the head? There's a couple things. So we prided ourselves.

We, one of our sayings, and you remember, is more games are lost than they are won. When we had that penalty on the interference, the... Kicker interference. Hunter interference, yeah. It led to a touchdown because it gave them the shorter field. That's how they scored their touchdown. And they're only touchdown in the game. And that was anti-patriot, right? And the crazy thing is that game,

there were only five penalties. That was the only penalty that we had that game. And it led to points and almost bit us in the butt. So when I'm thinking I get, it's crazy. Like when I was watching TV, I literally got angry watching and Gerard Cherry who did it was a terrific player. That was one of our other 23 signings. Terrific special teams player, important part.

He made a mistake, but that's what I'm thinking about. And then I also think about how the other four penalties in the game were all pre-snap penalties by the Raiders. And we know about pre-snap, that's free money right there. It's free. And that's- So I just thinking about the penalties. Oh yeah.

You mentioned that first drive that I was so pissed off again watching it again, come on. One of the first things you'll hear at one of the first team meetings of a new season is Bill will address the team and he'll say, you can't win until you keep from losing. Meaning penalties, bad football, negative plays, things that you can prevent happening,

may not, you don't have to do something superior or anything crazy, but if you just play the game the way it's supposed to be played, no MEs, no penalties, pre-snap penalties, no freebies, you'll put yourself in such, like, dramatically such a higher position to win. Yeah. And that's something that was a premium.

You look at the bottom of his page, of Scott's page, what do they say? We want tough, big, strong, fast, tough, smart football players. Smart football players meaning being able to decipher these types of things, know your assignments, don't do stupid things that'll hurt the team because, like Bill says,

most games are lost, not won. It's a team that makes the least amount of mistakes that wins. If you can watch all these games. You know, and that's really what it is. It's's the team that makes the least amount of mistakes that wins. If you go watch all these games, you know, and that's really what it is. It's not the team that makes the biggest plays. It's the team that doesn't make the least amount of mistakes that wins.

And we were a team that we prided ourselves by preying upon, P-R-E-Y, preying upon other teams' mistakes. And you know, you asked what's the other thing that hit me. And this is, I think, if I hopefully folks will go back and watch this game because I want to say that the first three passes that Brady threw that game were screen passes. Yeah.

And- A look pass too. Shout out, Charlie. And there's this whole history. Again, this is part of the development of Tom Brady. And this is why I talk about this game encapsulating the special teams plays we made, the defensive plays we made, and Tommy being coached and the play calling

within Tommy's wheelhouse at the time. Charlie Weiss learned a lot from Ron Earhart, who was again, the Giants quarterback coach, Phil Sims. And when Phil Sims became a really good player in the league, Ron Earhart had become the offensive coordinator, nicknames Fargo. He had been with Parcells 100 years. And then North Dakota or something. North Dakota State, maybe. Yeah. And so he, um, so Ron Earhart, Big Going Brothers, maybe. Yeah, Fargo. Yeah, and so he- Quite protective there.

So Ron Erhard- Big going, Brother Smith. Yeah. But Charlie Weiss, when we go to the Jets, Charlie is the offensive coordinator, Fargo is our quarterbacks coach before Dan Henning gets there. And part of what, it helped Phil Sims,

short sideways underneath, swing passes, short and sideways. The extended running game is what we called it, using the running backs. Using the whole field. Using the whole field, and it doesn't have to be all, the long ball doesn't win all the time. People loved long ball, but. 100%, but the more you make a defense

have to defend the whole field, the better chances you have when you're separating that defense and they gotta think about that screen, then you get a 20 yard run or you get a deep ball because they're so focused. It's all like boxing. You got jabs, you got jabs.

You're not just gonna be throwing your haymaker every time. Right. But the best way to get your haymaker to actually land is to set it up with the jab. Here's the other thing that the short passing game does. It gets the defense running. It gets them tired. The other thing it does,

and this is the most important part, and I remember listening to Ron A-Hart talk about it. Confidence. When we got, exactly. When we got to the Jets, Vinnie Testaverde had had this career and Vinny had played pretty well with us at the Browns. We were doing short and sideways with him.

Vinny comes to us at the Jets and a lot of things were short and sideways. Part of it was not only the quarterback's confidence, but the team's confidence in the quarterback. Tommy was a kid. This is his first year as a starter and Charlie Weiss was so smart in his play calling. He was one of the, again, one of the best screen coaches I've ever been around. And the details and making things look good. So the beginning of this game in that first half, to me,

there was so much importance in how he set up the game and building Tommy's confidence and getting Tommy to throw. Confident throws. I mean, you always want to up the game and building Tommy's confidence getting Tommy to the throws. I mean, you always want to start the game with, because he's a second year quarterback at this point in his career, Tom. Right. You know, this is the biggest game in the organization's history at that point.

You know, not including, you know, 85 and all that, but to this point, it's been 20 years, or whatever it is 30 years so to get him confident you gotta get the young buck going the screens and all the swings and the look passes those are all designed to get him going and give the receivers confidence yeah I like catching a ball early easy one there's 52 pass attempts in this game that's crazy you don't you look at this game you wouldn't ever expect that. I want to say 10 passes. Wiggins had Wiggins had a

no plow, baby. He was Wiggins was making some plays. How about the catch off of the ball that box out of Patton's hands and he caught on the sidelines and kept his feet in the concentration Boston. He had a unbelievable. He had a crazy third down too late in the game. But we'll add check in into it. Yeah, you were right. Scott, the first three passes, Mark Edwards, JR Redmond, Kevin Falk, all out of the backfield catching balls, which is awesome. Then in the third quarter, just to pivot after halftime, a little bit of a field goal fest.

Janikowski knocked into, Adam knocked in. We talk about Vin and Terry being clutch. That old, that old, what is Sebastian Sendjnikowski? Where is he from? He's- Polar, by way of Daytona. That guy loves some vodka. That dude was kicking him in there. Bro, I heard he was an amazing high school soccer player.

Like amazing. Dude, the guy played until he was like, he was down there in Daytona. The guy didn't beat, train a lick, and he was kicking bombs. That ball, when you heard, you talking about Stu, you heard him hit the ball. It was like under.

When you were talking about that, it reminded me when we were playing San Diego and Leckler was punting. Remember the Lecklers? Yeah. I remember, when I was, you know, when you were turned, I would always go watch the punter. And when you hear a punter that can,

it sounds like a cannon. Absolutely. And that's how you evaluate kickers. Do they hit the meat of the ball? It's like a baseball, you know, hitting the meat of the bat, you can, it's scouting. Evaluating kickers, how crazy of a game was this for Vinatieri?

Like the clutchness. It was unbelievable. But again, from where he came from, he was from the Dakotas, in his mind, I remember him talking about it, this was another day at the office for him, even though he had been out of it. Adam was one of the most cool, on the surface,

cool customers. Yeah, this game put him on, I mean, what he did that season, because again, later on in the Super Bowl, he kicks that game winner, man. That's... Shane Leclerc was a punter this game too on the Raiders. Yes. Yeah crazy. So then after the third 13 to 3 Oakland's up and then what really turns the tides is this 10 play 67 yard drive eats up almost four and a half minutes that leads to a Brady rushing touchdown cuts it to 13-10.

13-10. So at this point of the game, are you nervous or are you confident? And going into the game, was the game plan to keep this high-flying offense? You wanted to keep this this specific game close to the very end to keep this high-flying offense, you wanted to keep this specific game close to the very end to give yourself, or was it one of the, what was that? I think it was, their offense was good, Gannon was good. So as you know, sometimes the belief was that our best defense was gonna be our offense.

We also knew that we had Antoine Smith. We were in regular, we were in 22. You also knew that we had Antoine Smith. We were in regular, we were in 22. You know, we were... Big running back. Yeah. Good boy. So keeping the ball away from...

I mean, you look at it, at the end of the game, the time of possession, I want to say, it was we had 40 minutes, they were 28. We dominated time of possession. And again, when you're playing a really good offense and a fast striking offense, part of it is keeping, you know, your defense off the field and their offense. So running the ball was really important. And I'll say, you know, I don't know if nervous was, I was certainly anxious. I mean, I don't know a game that,

I mean, I don't know a game that, where I didn't feel anxious. You know what I mean? Even when we were up sometimes by 21 points. You just, oh. Wow. Had to go there. I had to do it. I don't know, my bad, my bad.

That's wrong. Real quick thing on that, people say, man, that My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad.

My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad.

My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad.

My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. My bad. Anyway, thanks for bringing me down. What a buzzkill. Like post-mini-op. It's kind of like Bill. It's kind of like Bill. I gotta say, hey, I gotta tell you, I gotta bring him back. I gotta bring him back. Oh my gosh. So a lot of anxiety, because again, the clock was ticking

and we were not moving the ball quickly. But the defense was playing great. Lights out. But again, this is part of the, again, and this is so important, I think, the revisionist history of the development of Tommy. Our defense was so good, man. And it was so opportunistic.

And this is what a young quarterback needs. And you need special teams. So defense was lights out, special teams, again, Troy has those two muff punts, Izzo's on it. Adams kicking out of his mind. So there were a lot of things and people helping carry this game. Now, Antoine Smith rushed for 1,100 or 1,200 yards,

I think that year. He didn't have a lot of yards that game, but his Smith rushed for 1,100 or 1,200 yards, I think, that year. He didn't have a lot of yards that game, but his yards were important yards, particularly, you know, when we get to, I don't wanna steal your thunder, Jack, but there's some stuff coming up. So, yeah, I was very anxious. Yeah, I mean, you look at a game like this,

low scoring, weather factor, those long methodical drives are so valuable because what Scott said, the time possession, that's when you can really control a game. Absolutely. Even if you go down and you take five minutes off the clock, six minutes off the clock, and you only get a field goal, you know what demoralizing that is for a team. Because then they're sitting there

thinking like, you got the offense haven't been on the field in 20 minutes, they're sitting there like, oh fuck, another third down conversion, oh shit, are we gonna stop them on first, can we get a goddamn negative play? That's what the offense is thinking while the defense is out there on these long methodical drives, even though we should be thinking about, but when it's this type of game, that takes a lot out of your offense, because then it makes it more pressureful

when you're out there because you know that they just went this long, and then you're in third down in law, you're like, oh, fuck. Well, you bring up great points, because in the first half, we did not have one third down conversion in the first half. That's bad.

But if you watch our first offensive drive in that game, in the second half, our offense is punking them. I mean, Mark Edwards, our fullback, I mean, the pushing and shoving that's going on, it's Mark Edwards, it's Compton, it's guys. What's going on in hal half time then for these adjustments? I'm not down there. You know, Ernie and I stay up, that's coaches are coaching.

You give your notes and then they probably translate it to the team. And you know what's going on, and when the coaches run down with the team. They got five minutes decompressed, then we break up O and D and then team at the end. So, but if you, that second half, the tide, and Julian, great point, that long drive,

the tide started turning. And in that first offensive drive, we're punching them in the mouth. We're pushing, we're playing with a different mentality, different attitude in that second half. It was like, hey, there may be 30 minutes left in the season. It's go time. Yeah. And we built that team, you know, It was like, hey, there may be 30 minutes left in this season, it's go time.

And we built that team. We were not a fast football team, but we were big, strong, smart, and tough. And we were built for that venue. We were built for grass in December and January. Did you design the teams like that? Did you think about that when you were going into a draft or is that in the notebook?

We always wanted to be faster, but speed is difficult to get sometimes. We wanted to play fast, but it was part of, you know, Belichick was a part of those big, tough, strong defenses at the Giants. And that was, and again, when you know, part of what you're playing for is you do want to design your team around your venue.

The Colts looked completely different than we did because they played in that back when it was the RCA Dome, it was the old fast turf. Yeah, yeah. But we were mutters. I mean, whether it was intentional or not, we knew what we were because we also knew if we were playing home games in December and January, like

another season, but that big playoff game Against the colts years later the aFC championship game. We were built to win that game in that circumstance Yeah, I fought the law in the law one game. That's right. Oh That was great. I saw how great is thailand electric electric. Everything's great except Having him interviewing him at uh 10 30 in the morning and he's making those drink shots That was only I saw that like So when we got here one of the first things I checked I'm like gosh, I hope this not no That's why I was confused did he he brought that Yeah, and they have a thing with the Hall of Fame

She actually do some really good work. They do some great thing for the Hall of Fame players. That was quite the episode Um, I was nervous. Yeah, I'm like, oh, we're only going with the Duncan this morning. I'm drinking Good. I'm good We spoke about all three phases of the game and the offense, the defense, the special teams, the moments that preceded the moment we all remember the tuck roll moment or two great displays of that. Stop calling it the time. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Snowball moment. You're right. The snowball moment. Pardon me. Snowball moment that had the rule of tucking.

Coleman moment. The correct call moment was a third and one with just over two minutes left. If Oakland converts this, that might be game over. Game set match. Brian Cox and Richard Seymour get in there and blow it up, force a Shane Leckler punt. Troy Brown, an amazing return, 37 yard return, fumbles Larry Izzo with the alert recovery.

Second time. Shit on the sideline Izzo. You hear that story? We got to, can we hear this real quick? We don't think we said that in the pod yet. Izzo just contacted me. He said he wants to come on. I'm going to have Izzo fucking tell us when he's shit on the sideline. Maybe he can do that game, the shit on the sideline game.

Izzo, you know, Izzo, so the first ring party, sub-overing party, Izzo, Vrabel, hammered. Nice. Hammered. And they're dipping Copenhagen, both of them, right? And they come up and we're talking, and Vrabel's contract's up, or he has another year, so Vrabel wants to talk contract,

well he's got some liquor in him. Izzo, they're just, but they're happy as all get out. And I have like a beige suit on and a pink shirt. And Izzo is kind of like a close talker when he's got booze in him. And we get done talking, I go back to my table and my wife looks at me and she says, what is all over your shirt?

The two of them had been talking and spitting dip. Like, you know, the little piece. I got flex at Copenhagen. I had to toss the shirt because that stuff stained. My wife's like, what were you just doing? Crawling through the weeds or something? Freaking inzo. Larry, he's awesome.

Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. So that brings us to a first down play that NFL rule 3 section 22 article 2 note 2 comes into play And helps extend the drive leads to the Adam Vinatieri field goal that ties it up sends it into OT It was triple slant D slant trips, right triple triple slant D slant you man can you walk us through that Tommy can we can we not see though your teammate your roommate he turns that he's facing that way he's coming right here maybe a snowflake in

his eye good but that's the young Tom Brady Tom Brady he learned from that situation can you walk us through that moment? Yeah. Yeah, so are you and Ernie in the press box like, fuck the game's over. I was just like, when deflated isn't a strong enough word, I mean, I was like, it was just, I didn't know what to think. Ernie, we were just like, we didn't know.

Ernie jumped on the rule right away. He wasn't on the rule right away, but he noticed the officials, right? And we're like, wait a second here. This might be a review. There's so many things that happen. And watching the TV copy triggered some things here. There's something about the music

at Patriots games that is very unique, right? It's the same songs. You're gonna hear Hell's Bells, you know, and- ACDC, Pond Jovi. You'll feel Colin. Will Colin, in the air tonight. So, bingo! During that time when they're doing the review,

they played in the air tonight. And I noticed it on a TV copy, and you can hear it on the TV copy. Did you remember that? Just like, there's moments, during moments like that, yeah, cause there's a bunch of moments like that and I was like, oh my God, look at me, I'm getting goose bumpy right now.

And there was also another time when Hell's Bells came on, on the third down play, I mean, on the third down stop. Yeah. You're hearing the dong of Hell's Bells from ACDC. It's, but during that moment,, I remember, oh my gosh. You didn't want to believe it was over? And I remembered what I remember at that moment was looking up at the stadium and the snow,

and it's coming down. And I was just like, no, no, God, no. Yeah. And here they start reviewing reviewing and it's overturned and or it's called the right way. It's called the right way. It's in the rule book. It's in the rule book.

That was textbook rule book. And yeah, it went from like this, want to throw up in your mouth moment to hopefulness. I had a situation, it wasn't tuck rule, but you remember when we were playing the Chiefs in 18 and we threw the pick on the offsides? I didn't see the flag. So I'm down the field and it was one of their, I forgot who it was, but he's running by me on the Chiefs and he goes, oh, it's going gonna be a hell of a lot off season for you guys.

Because that was game. I'm sitting there and I was literally walking back thinking, this fucking off season is gonna suck. Fuck these motherfuckers. And then I saw that flag, I looked at him like, we got a flag, we got a flag sir. D-Ford, here's the other thing though, and again, talking about-

The emotions of sport. Oh my God. Nothing like it. Look, this is exactly where I'm headed next, the emotion of sport. And in that moment, but here's, you know how I talked about this game has everything that is Patriots in it, situational, everything. Think about this. Brady's a kid.

You go from that moment of that happening, our entire team, the entire offense goes to that moment of that happening, our entire team, the entire offense goes to that moment, and then all of a sudden, there's a ruling, we still gotta go back out there and try to tie this game and win this game. You go from complete utter absolutely being deflated to euphoria to compartmentalize, we got a job to do. And to me, that was one of the cool things too,

is how that football team refocused so quickly with their emotions. I mean, that's been evident numerous times for the Patriots, I believe. Having the ability to compartmentalize when things are not looking good and refocusing on just doing your job. We did that, I'm not trying to bring it up to

the Atlanta game, but that game. In Seattle with 14, we're down 10 points in the fourth quarter. It's just like it says on that little page of yours, tough, smart football teams that can perform under pressure. And discipline, right? And that's part of it. And you know, it's funny, and you talk about that.

I don't know if you saw the dynasty. Yeah, a little bit. Part of what I talked about in the couple things I did was that moment when I was with the Falcons, and I talked about it from the Falcon standpoint. I was up in the press box, and it's halftime, and we're up. A couple things happened. Rodney Harrison texts me.

He said, hey Scott, Eric and I are leaving, can't stand this anymore, so happy for you, so proud of you, congratulations. I remember reading the text again, oh my God, no! Rodney, you can't, no! Reverse jinx, reverse jinx. And I still have that text message.

But then there was this moment in there too where we were in this suite, and it was a bunch of people in personnel, part of football operations folks, because I had a different role at that point in time as the assistant GM. And someone slapped me on the, because I never get up out of my seat and everyone is like enjoying eating snacks

and chicken fingers and someone slaps me on the back like, hey, would you enjoy this for once? And I lost my crap. And I said to myself, I said, you guys don't understand what we're up against. I said, that guy number 12 is effing Freddy Krueger. He's coming back. I just hope he doesn't come back and get us all.

And I was dead serious. And I know there were some people I was working with that thought I was a douche in that moment, but to the point, it was part of the mentality, Jules, that nothing seemed out of reach. If you stay disciplined, because teams will lose games. And it's... And especially at that point of Tom's career,

where he's seen He's already had 28 point comebacks and it may not have been in the Super Bowl But if you have that under your belt Even if it's a regular season against the goddamn New Orleans Saints that had nothing to do in week three You felt it before hey I was it when we were that the nationally televised night game against the Broncos, where we intentionally snapped the ball out of the end zone, took the safety defense,

hey, you gotta get us three and out. And then Tommy brought us back in that one, which is where this game is kind of similar. You know, we get the ball, you know, we have to give it over. I think it's like 2.40 left in the game and we got three timeouts in the fourth quarter. We got to get the ball back and we got a score. So what happens is, the defense,

Jack, you mentioned the third down, third and one. Because the first run of that first play of that drive, they pick up seven. Then they pick up two, it, third and one. Because the first run of that first play of that drive, they pick up seven. Then they pick up two, it's third and one. And again, I know Cox makes a hit, because we bring in the goal line defense. Seymour. Seymour takes out the fullback, John Ritchie,

and then Zach Crockett runs into the back end. We stop him and then Cox hits him up high. Three and out, we burn the timeouts. And then on that third down play, we don't burn the timeout. Well, at the end of that play, if you look at the TB copy, there's like six guys running to the officials' timeout after every single snap. But the officials stopped the clock,

so we still got one in the pocket. But then as soon as- For the measurement. Right, they do the measurement, then as soon as that's over, boom, time out. Gives you so much more time to think on what the situation is next. It was 2.19 left because at that moment,

we were still going to get the two minute for that fourth time out. It's three. So again, once again, that was the team. It was the defense helping the offense three and out. And in those moments, you just never felt like you were out of it. Never feel like you're out of it.

And this game started that, that whole feeling for this organization. Like all the games that I was a part of was because of this game. That's how important this game was because this was an example of everything that the coaching staff was preaching to the team that a lot of the times, sometimes you guys are like,

this is never fucking to happen. You're sitting up there in the auditorium. Games aren't lost. Special teams don't matter. Penalties don't, fuck that, we just do. This game exemplified everything that you needed to do. But, Julie, it wasn't just coaching. Well, players gotta make plays.

No, it was players, it was coaching, but it was an organizational, institutional, cultural thing that existed there. Because that moment, being prepared for anything, everything and being ready to execute, that happened eight months earlier in the NFL draft when we were ready to make that matte light trade. It was everything about this organization,

that's what we were about. Everyone was dialed in, it was a way of life. Yeah, it was the coaches, yeah, it was the head coach, yeah, it was the personnel in. It was a way of life. You know, so yeah, it was the coaches. Yeah, it was the head coach. Yeah, it was the personnel department. It was- The equipment staff. It was, yeah. Everyone.

It was Richard Miller being ready to help with the contracts. It was, there was this institutional buy-in, but to your point, and I love what you're saying here, this validated all of the crazy. This validated all of the crazy. This validated all of the detail, all of the maniacal, borderline crazy stuff about every little thing mattering. Because again, it goes back to the Matt Light trade

and being ready for that. Being ready to sign Ken Walter in November. Being ready to- Move on from your $100 million quarterback for this pip squeak guy in the six round. That was that conversation that's week eight. Come on, we're on a roll here. Don't kill. Come on. Quit bringing me over, man. So Vin and Terry goes out to Makes two of the greatest kicks in NFL history. 23 yarder and a 45 yarder.

45 and 23, sorry. Now what's it feel like when he hits that second one? And we've seen the footage, how crazy the footing was. Just another day at the office for Vinatieri. Like it's nothing. Like when that goes in, is that when you, were you guys like we could win a fucking Super Bowl here? Because they were a huge, they were a favorite.

They were the favorite for the AFC. Yeah, I wasn't even thinking about the Super Bowl. Here's what, but here's like some of the wild stuff that leads even up to that. First of all, the game tying field goal was one of the most emotional, singular emotional moments in my life. Lost the game, snowball rule.

And we're looking, I'll never forget Ernie, we're looking, there's the fog on the window, you're looking to the far right because the press box in those days, it wasn't at the 50 yard line, it was, you know, cause that's where, those were the money making sweets. So we're at this point of vantage point of disadvantage. And the angle that we were watching was the Fox was saying it was low and the

ball looks like it was on a straight line. And I swear it looked like it went by the crossbar and dropped straight down. It looks like it's. it, and so that was crazy. But then for the second field goal, the game winner, here's the other part that I remember distinctly, was the whole icing the kicker thing. And I don't even know if the TV game captures this, but very just called time out.

Gruden calls time out. And again, this is like, I'm like, trying not to get emotional talking about this, but it was one of those organic moments of our team. The timeout gets called, the linemen turn around, go back to where Kenny Walter is, and start clearing the snow. No one told them to do that.

They knew Adam needed a place. It was like, here's a time, you talk about situations, they just all went to, they helped a guy clear the spot so he could kick the game winner. And again, I get emotional because, I mean, this is what this game is about, right? This is what football's about. It's about the community, the brotherhood, the sisterhood, the whole, all of us together

doing something so we can all achieve a goal and be rewarded and have this lifetime thing together. And that's, I mean, that was one of those moments. It was, so even before the kick going in, it was just like, I don't know, man. It just, it... That's football.

That's ball. That's football. That's why we signed up. That's why we depend on one another. That's why you're trying to get this collection of people and you're trying to build this thing. That is your family. That is your community.

That is your, you know, people you'll know for life. That's why you watched all them tapes. That's why you watched all them tapes. That's why we lifted all them weights. Yeah. Darn right, man. You know? That was my daughter's, or our daughter's quote in her senior year book. You know, they had to have a quote.

Oh, yes. Of course, that's her father-in-law's line. She just wrote, that's why we lift all them weights. Oh my gosh. That's such a fact. If that's not somebody that knows ball, I don't know what is. That's such a fact. See, you married the game.

You married the game. That's right. You guys are, I don't know what is. That's such a flak. See, you married the game. You married the game. That's right. You guys are on all time senior quote right there. I got a little misty there for a second. Jolly. Oh my gosh. How do you not get like the money ball quote? How do you not get emotional?

Amen. And the Patriots win 16 to 13. A dynasty is born. Not yet. Not yet. On its way. On its way. On its way. And go on to beat Pittsburgh in the AFC

Championship game. Drew Bledsoe saves the day and then go on to win Super Bowl 36. Now how is that, going to the Super Bowl aftermath? Drew Bledsoe plays two great quarters. What's the conversation like? He saves the season. He saves the season. How do you go back to the... Again, team. Because you know in practice it was... And you know Tommy's the guy. How do you go back to the, again, team, team. Because you know. In practice it was. And you know Tom is the guy. You know, and you know, and at that point he was the guy. But again, this goes back to.

When did he become the guy? The collective. Ooh. When did you know that he was the guy going forward? Was it like? So here's the thing again, let's go retro to 2000. His rookie year. Again, people don't remember the details

like some of us remember the details. Of our 53-man roster, and I think at that point in time, there was only four practice squad players and bumped up to five. But that year, there was a point in time where we had only 51 players on our 53-man roster. It was a combination of salary cap issues, and because we were close to the cap, we were mugged up against it.

But the other thing was there were certain players, we were all in a certain way. And we said, we're not going to keep someone on the roster just to have a player on the roster. If they're not all in, so we actually had 52 players, 51 players at one point in time, but we kept four quarterbacks on the 53-man roster. We had Bledsoe, we had John Freeze, Michael Bishop, and Tommy.

And we knew Tommy, we felt Tommy was developable. Is that a word, developable? Yeah. It is now. It is. I wonder what that would get you in Scrabble, how many points that is. Not a Scrabble guy.

Yeah, me neither. Monopoly, I like Monopoly. But he developed, and I remember thinking by, so by 2001, he's our backup quarterback. Damon Hewer, we have Damon Hewer now. We had signed him in the off season as a free agent. Then there were internal conversations that we felt if and when the point comes,

this guy might be our guy. Because the other thing about Drew was, you have to remember, we knew what his kryptonite was, because we had been at the Jets the three previous seasons. And what was his kryptonite? Pressure that he could see in his face between the guards. Traditional pocket passer. But here's the thing is, and I have so much respect for Drew,

I like, I think the world drew it in respect for him. And what had happened at that point in Drew's career, he had been hit literally in the mouth so many times from things that came up the middle, from pressure up the middle. And, and. It means you don't look, when that happens to a quarterback, you don't, you're not processing the play anymore.

You're feeling the rush. And that half a millisecond, quarter millisecond, whatever it is, that's when the guy's open. So if you miss that, it doesn't matter how strong your arm is, that's what, you get a case of that. I don't know if that, yeah. And I used to get pissed off at people

that would criticize Drew for that because that's a human being being human. Yeah, he got hit. He got hit. And at some point in time, the key to being a quarterback is not just people, oh, he's smart. It doesn't matter how smart they are. You can go up on the grease board and Xs and Os all day long and you've got time.

But when you add in the element of the intensity of a game, the speed of the game, and getting punched in the mouth and can still make good decisions, the speed of the game, and getting punched in the mouth and can still make good decisions, it's about good decision making, not just being smart. And I'll tell you, man, Drew hung in that season, and I had to be, I can't imagine, I can't imagine how tough that was. And then to be ready, and to win the AFC championship game,

man, and just, you talk about a soldier, about a warrior. My respect for Drew Bledsoe is tremendous. I think Tom phrased it up the best. You know, that was the Patriot way. You know, it's the mental toughness doing what's best for the team when it may not be best for you. You know, and Tom said that I think Brady day about Drew, you know and and it's a business. It's crazy sport There's always there's only one quarterback, but you know that that's That's how it goes sometimes so Drew had a hell of a career. He was a great quarterback Yeah, Drew made hell of a 30 line top 30 quarterback all time just happened. He can start it was behind him Hey, he can still throw it. Maybe Adam at the house. How about the GM handshake?

Oh my God. He got big hands. Doesn't he have, he's got huge, but I'll tell you what, number 12's got enormous hands. You know what they say about big hands. Big gloves. Exactly. Big gloves.

The thing is, when Tommy's holding a ball though, and you look at still shots of him holding the ball, I'm convinced that's a big part of the reason for his accuracy in the weather and the elements that he played in so many times in his career. Never phased him. We drafted Cliff Kingsbury, and I remember Parcell said this to me,

he goes, do you know how small his hands are? Cliff Kingsbury had small hands. And it was, I don't know if it played into his ability to control the ball in, anyway. So can you pick it? Small hands turn into a good coach. Good coach. I say small hands, good offense.

Good offense. Can you pick it, Super Bowl winning coach in the next 20 years? Can we go on to the aftermath of this, Jackie? All right, the Patriots go on to win Super Bowl 36 beating the greatest show on turf and as Ernie likes to say his favorite line of that a dynasty has born. Yes to quote the great Ernie Adams. No but he was quoting Adam or was it Archuleta or was it Ricky Proll? It was Ricky Proll. Ernie gave him the role in your face, Ricky.

Gruden went to Tampa, won that. I also had one more thing. In this game planning, we didn't get into it. For Gruden, did Bill bring out a lot of the Giants 49ers tape because they probably had a lot of the similar schemes because Gruden was under Homegrown, Homegrown with Walsh, Walsh, and I think he was even with Niners with Seifer in 90.

You know, I don't know specifically for that, but here's, it's so funny, interesting question just from the standpoint where, you know, part of Bill's leadership that I always thought was so important, he was, Bill's a terrific listener. Yeah, I say that. And he knows how to, and who to ask questions. And, you know, Ernie, as you know, sometimes it'd be,

hey Ernie, what's the, and Ernie would, you know, he would, and it would just come out. But the other person that I'll never forget is coming out of a, it was a staff meeting, and it was a personnel meeting, staff personnel with the coaching staff. And we're coming out of the meeting and Bill and I are just standing in the hallway

and he's waiting for Pepper. And Pepper comes out and he goes, hey Pepper, remember the San Francisco game 1980 and in the third quarter, and Bill was trying to remember something, and Pepper Johnson, this is one of the things, I remember this too, where I understood the value of Pepper Johnson.

He was a chemistry guy, but he was this recall guy also. Pepper just goes, oh yeah, and he spits out, oh yeah, it was the third quarter, third and seven, he just makes up this, it's third and whatever, we're on the right hash defensively. And he had the whole thing, and they were in three by one, or two by one.

And he just repeated it, but he looked away from Bill, and it was almost like Rain Man-ish, but Johnson, and he was just like, da-da-da-da-da. And I was like, but that was part of the, you bring up something like that. Bill not only had the tape and had his own recall, he had people around him.

That recalled. That had recall, and Pepper was, I'll never forget that moment with Pepper out in the hallway thinking, wow. And Pepper remembered what the call was, what the adjustment was. I think I know that call because was it the... Oh, he's making this up now.

Come on. No, no, no. You got it, bro. Was it a trap play, a double trap play where he wanted to show Banks or LT blowing up what you had to do to the trap guy? Because if... It was an adjustment call. Bill wanted to do to the trap guy. Because if, it was an adjustment call.

Bill wanted to know what the adjustment was that we made when they motioned something. And it was- Bill's used a lot of those old, I mean, a lot of these plays, yeah, the game has evolved, but a lot of, some of these root run plays and stuff, they've been running since the 80s.

It's the same shit. And here's a funny thing too, because I remember early on, Bill used to show the linebackers, talk about the linebackers and then show like Giants films. And I remember, Rable came out one time to practice dressed in Giants gear. They were just like, are you effing happy now?

Because Rable could do stuff and Vrabel more than anybody pushed across the line where it got uncomfortable sometimes like, Vrabes might've gone too far that time. Vrabel's one of a kind that way. He did it with Tommy like all the time. But he did it with Bill sometimes. Oh, you may not have wanted to go there. He's a vicious Matt Light.

Cause Matt Light will get you uncomfortable in a jokingly fun way. Rabble will just go through your throat. He'll fucking come straight for your throat. He'll talk about anything, any means necessary, wife, kids, fucking mom, dad, he doesn't care. Ray Bord. And then no remorse afterwards.

Zero. What, what? This is football. It's fucking football, gross sack. Oh my gosh. But that's part, you know, that's the thing is he would do things and say things. And here's the thing, I remember talking

when Vrabel was coming out and getting to know a little bit, you know who was called his college roommate was Luke Fickel. And Luke was like this epic wrestler. So there were these stories when you talk to the people at Ohio State, there were these epic stories of wrestling matches and fights that Vrabel, like two brothers would have, you know, where they're like destroying dorm rooms and just, and to the death. Oh my God.

But that's Raeble. That's full Raeble. Yeah. Fucking Vraebs. We got to get them on here. Got to. Oh my gosh. We'll be right back after this quick break.

Hey, I'm Gianna Prenti. And I'm Jeme Jackson-Gadsden. We're the hosts of Let's Talk Offline, a new podcast from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. When you're just starting out in your career, you have a lot of questions. Like how do I speak up when I'm feeling overwhelmed? Or can I negotiate a higher salary if this is my first real job? Girl, yes.

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is usually who applies. Yeah, I think a lot about that quote. What is it, like, you miss 100% of the shots you never take? Yeah. Rejection is scary, but it's better than you rejecting yourself. Together we'll share what it really takes to thrive in the early years of your career without sacrificing your sanity or sleep. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

We're turning up the heat on the newest episode of All the Smoke. Vice President and Democratic presidential nominee Kamala Harris pulls up to the show to discuss her historic presidential run. Most people have ambition, they have aspirations, they have dreams, and they are willing to work hard. And if we give people the opportunity to actually meet those goals, they jump for it every time. Mat and Stack will be diving deep into the journey that brought her here, her vision for the future,

and the real stories behind the headlines. Make sure you check out All the Smoke with Vice President Kamala Harris, out now. Listen today on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sup y'all, this is Questlove, and I'm here to tell you about a new podcast I've been working on with the Story Pirates and John Glickman called Historical Records. It's a family-friendly podcast.

Yeah, you heard that right. A podcast for all ages. One you can listen to and enjoy with your kids starting on September 27th. I'm gonna toss it over to the host of Historical Records, Nimini, to tell you all about it. Make sure you check it out. Hey, y'all, Nimini here.

I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families called Historical Records. Historical Records brings history to life through hip hop. Flash slam, another one gone. Fast bam, another one gone. The cracker, the Flash slam, another one gone Fast bam, another one gone The cracker, the bat, and another one gone The tip of the cap is another one gone Each episode is about a different inspiring figure from history, like this one about Claudette Colvin,

a 15-year-old girl in Alabama who refused to give up her seat on the city bus nine whole months before Rosa Parks did the same thing. Check it. And it began with me. Did you know, did you know? I wouldn't give up my seat. Nine months before Rosa, it was Claudette Goldman.

Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records. Because in order to make history, you have to make some noise. Listen to historical records on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's name the game. Oh, we know this one.

It's not the tuck roll game. It's the snowball game. It is the snowball game. It is the snowball game. Is this the greatest game of all time? Let's score it. Stakes zero to 10. 10 B in the highest. 10, because if not, the season's over.

Season's over. I'm gonna go nine, it's divisional round. I feel that, I feel that. Okay. Jack has an 8.9, I have an 8.7. I just broke a rule actually. You know, Jul. What's a rule? Thank you. You know, in our grading scale, there's no hyperbole, right? There's no hyperbole. And I went 10 right out of the gate. That was emotion right there. You can't make an emotional decision. No, and I just did. This shows you how long I've been out of the game. Hey, you don't use it, you lose it.

Remember that listener? Oh, I suck. Hey, hold on. Do you want another take at it? Because everyone comes 10s, I usually say 10, and then we just move on, but. No, I just think I needed to say that out loud as kind of therapy.

But now if I go where Jules is going here, then I look like that scout who's, well, well, Julian said nine, I'm going with a nine. No, so I'm sticking with my 10. He's sticking with his 10. I like it, baby. Did they say Jack out of 8.9, I out of 8.7? Star power, zero to 10 decimals, okay.

Well, are we talking which teams? All everywhere. Everywhere, I mean, I think they've got the greatest receiver of time. Four Hall of Famers on their roster in that game, I wanna say. We've got Tylaw, Richard Seymour. Wait, is Eric Allen in the Hall of Famers?

I don't believe so. No, so he'll be... How many pro balls did he make? Al Davis is still alive too, yeah. Al Davis is still alive. He's still at the helm, yeah. So there's a bunch of Hall of Famers. John Gruden was a great coach.

Great coach. Great coach John Gruden. Then, look at the Patriots, right. Ty Law, Richard Seymour. Vinatieri. This guy Tom Brady. Vinatieri's gonna be there. Vinatieri. You think Brady'll get in?

I think maybe. He plays his cards right. Bill, I mean Bill might be in next year, based on this new rule. Yeah, they changed the rule. How about that? So Star Power, I'm gonna go nine.

Nine? Solid, very solid. I couldn't go, you know. I'm gonna go nine. Nine? Solid, very solid. I couldn't go, you know. I'm gonna go 8.9. Respectable? Nah, it's a 9.1. 9.1, 9.1. Also, this is second year Brady too.

So here, by the way, so I'm gonna talk a little scouting grade. We had a scout on the staff, Jake Hallam at the time, was old school, OG, and Jake was a great scout. Just had experience, but he would give a guy a grade and try to put in a decimal point, and it's whole numbers, none of this 9.2 stuff. And I go, Jake, do you like the guy or not?

And he'd go, I like him, and he's a real country. I like him, but I don't like like him. So really he's only, so he would talk a like, like like like, or a little less like, he would say. So can we go whole numbers here, guys? I mean, I'm gonna make, nevermind. You can go whole numbers. I'm going whole numbers.

Because a 92% is different than a 90% in scaling of a grade. So if that's an A minus, that's a straight A. I was never in that stratus. Neither was I. I always looked at them. I had an 8.4. My friends did.

9.1 from Jack. I gotta say, I like, like, like Scott's approach to this scoring. We're getting some good insight into scouting junior. Three likes right there. I like, like, like Scott's approach to this scoring. We're getting some good insight into scouting. He likes right there. I like, like, like him. Oh my gosh. And the scouts are there, if the scouts that were there hear that, they're gonna laugh their butts off

because they know Jake, God rest his soul. He was the best. Let's go Jake. Gameplay, zero to 10. Gameplay, give me a definition. Back and forth. How the game went back and forth over time. For the viewer.

Last second field goal. Entertainment value. Entertainment value. How enjoyable was it to watch? I think when you win you think it's great. Yeah. But even so, I'm again, I'm an emotional guy, I'm a sucker, I love that it was snow,

I love that it was grass, I love that it was, I love that it was a low scoring game. I know you're an emotional guy. I'm a sucker. I love that it was snow. I love that it was grass. I love that it was I love that it was a low scoring game. I know you're an offensive guy, but I love I love. Defense mattered. I'm going nine again, man. All the guys I worked with over scouts are like they want to choke me out right now because I'm given such high grades. I'm an offensive guy, so I got to go with the there's a bunch of fumbles

and there's some bad, you know the there's a bunch of fumbles and there's some bad you know there a couple of loose couple muffs. And you're a teamer. A teamer. Controversial call you know like the refs getting in the mix. I'm gonna go with the 7.8. So you're going on the quality of play when you're saying because of the fumbles. See I wasn't looking at that. That scorey I mean it's a great gameplay. This is I I mean, we're still talking to it. We're talking about it 22 years in, and it's not even a Super Bowl.

Gave it an 8.4. I might have to take this and give this, Ernie Adams, I might need to go through this and redefine some of this. We would be honored. For our new scouting report here. We should. We should. It does need a revamp.

We need a revamp. We do a re-scoring special every 50 episodes. And if you're gonna do a binder, please keep it MLA format, thank you. The name of the game. The Snow Bowl. I wish we were together, man. I wish we were there at the same time.

See, I was the guy that, like, me and Ernie became close because I would see Ernie every day by himself eating a goddamn tomato. And I was just curious, and I went up to him like, hey, how's that tomato? And then it just became a thing where I would just joke with him. And then he he gave me nuggets. He'd be like, you know, like this punter, you know, he'd give me some nuggets and information is always good.

Would he bring you a tomato on your birthday? No, he never brought me a tomato. We weren't there. Not yet. You may get something in mail this year. Did he bring you a tomato on your birthday? No, he never brought me a tomato. We weren't there. Not yet. You may get something in mail this year. No, he did give me. Ernie is a sweet human being.

Ernie brought me a beautiful, when he came and did our show, he brought me unbelievable book bag full of three books for my daughter Matilda. What was the other one? Secret Garden, like these beautiful books from the Cambridge Bookstore. Brooklyn, Brooklyn. Brooklyn, was it Brooklyn?

Brooklyn Bookstore? Yeah, it was spectacular. That's Ernie, and that's the stuff. See, those of us, we that know, know. Ernie's a sweet. Definitely. I mean, you know he's a sweet guy. He outkicked his coverage with his wife. Oh, Christine, absolutely.

Christine, I mean. I love Ernie, but Ernie, you don't deserve that. Christine is. The name of this game also is the cultural impact of it. So we're talking about it, you know, 24, three years later. I'm going 10. I don't even have to, I mean. But as long as we call it the right name, the Snowball.

The Snowball, yes. I'm going with a 8.9. I knew you would. He's a Raiders fan. Nine, 8.9, 8 Snow Bowl. The Snow Bowl, yes. I'm going with a 8.9. I knew you would. He's a Raiders fan. Nine, 8.9, 8.9. 9.5, I had a 9.4. Scott, you gotta think about it though, it's kinda like when you go get a burger.

Oh, I know getting burgers. When you grade a burger, there's no such thing as a perfect burger. There's no such thing. There's never been a 10 burger. There could be a 9.8, there could be a nine. But it's kind of like surfing a wave. You may have got the biggest wave of all time,

but it's not the next wave. It's kind of like Tommy says, which, hey Tommy, what's your favorite ring? The next one. The next one, Scott, what's your favorite burger? The next one. Exactly. I mean.

God, I could go for a burger right now. The final score is 9.03. What is that, Sackler? This is going to be high. This is number four. See, I feel like I'm number four all time. All time of the games we've covered. So it's right ahead of the 2004 ALCS Game 4 Yankees, Red Sox,

and the 1999 Women's World Cup, China versus the United States, and just below the Malcolm Butler game, the Dynasty 2 game we call it, the Super Bowl, what is that, 49, Seattle versus Patriots. I love that the 1999 Women's World Cup finals. I remember watching that game. We all did. Great Rose Bowl game.

And if I was grading with my family. Here's part of the problem, and this is why working with good people, sometimes I overgraded things. Well, that's why we get the average of all of ours together. Which is good. You guys kind of brought me... It's like a 40-time when you go to the combine.

You got five scouts on it, you got the electronics, you get this guy, you get that much. We used to be real bad. We used to be real bad. Everything had 10s, like wrestling matches were first overall. We re-changed the scoring, so we add, so we can help. You guys talk wrestling on this show? Oh, yes. Yeah, we've hadchanged the scoring, so we add, so we can help. You guys talk wrestling on the show? Yeah, we've had Becky Lynch on for WrestleMania 35.

Shawn Michaels. Yeah, see, I'm a different, I'm Rowdy Roddy Piper, Hulkamania. Love Hulk. But Rowdy Roddy Piper had one of the greatest lines. Piper's Pit, you guys ever watch the old versions of Piper's Pit? There's one, he has one of the greatest lines

of all time that I still use to say, just when you think you know the answer, I change the question. That's how Jules is an interviewer. That's how I am as an interviewer. That's how you're always right. My dad used to do that to me. That's why he was always right.

Top five game, top five game. We're gonna get so much heat that our top four games are all Patriots games. We gotta look nice and fun. Well here's the thing, as I was gonna say about this, Top five game, top five game. We're gonna get so much heat that our top four games are all Patriots games. We gotta look nice and fine. Well, here's the thing is I was gonna say about this. One of my concerns is this recency bias. Yes.

There's definitely- 100%. For sure. And there's definitely recency bias. But that's why I wanted to bring some of that other stuff in there, like this game, like the beginning of the Patriots and what the truth of the beginning of the Patriots thing was. But the first game is kind of the end of the Patriots, what the truth of the beginning of the Patriots thing was. But the first game is kind of the end of the Patriots.

So it was kind of like the bow on the end of the gift. That's true. So we got, they're both top five. We just need, we need to have someone come in and try to change that. So all you guests out there that are anti-pats, have someone else from another team that has some importance that have gotten in the same level of what this is potentially we could see that here with the Chiefs. Get some good

games. Yeah. We could see that. Are you going fishing for Travis Kelsey right now? I want Travis Kelsey. He'd be a great guest. I mean he's got I've gone on his. I was DMing with him the other day on our channel. Huh? You always DMing with him on our... I know he's always cool. He's cool. He's got I've got on his I was the other day on our channel, huh? You always DMing with them on our I know We he's always plays. He's cool. He's so cool. He's smooth smooth What celebrities have you guys had on go back? Let's see in here like we had on we had O'Neill which was Yeah, a couple coffee Eric Stone's don't you be don't you be outstanding? Yeah, Mark. Heidi Gardner We that's another show, by the way, that I've seen now since I retired.

Modern Family was fun. Modern Family. You should really check out The Simpsons. The Simpsons is great too. You might have missed that one. Mangini was a huge Simpsons guy. He was a huge Simpsons. Are we allowed to use his name?

Oh, we didn't even talk about the drive. Yeah, we're all human tools. We gotta do another episode. I mean, you're Italian though. I thought we would know something. You would do as a family business. It stays in the family business. Yeah I'm very and I'm very Italian and I didn't. Anyway when you're here your family. Casey Affleck. Casey Affleck. Shut up. Another restaurant. Casey Affleck.

Casey Affleck. He was great. Awesome. Sorry. He used to sell. He was great. He was awesome. Sorry. He used to sell sausages outside of Fenway as a kid. You know who made those sausages? Bianco and Sons from Revere. Let's go. Joey Bianco. We have Sausage Fest at our house every summer on Nantucket.

That sounds like Jake's. I might have to send you a... That sounds like Jack's on a Friday night. Hey, no, did he? No, did he? No, did he? Me and the boys. A Sausage Fest t-shirt, but Bianco and Sons.

So, Joey Bianco is cousins of my college teammate and roommate, Ralphie Marchand, from Everett, the Everett boys. And we should ask Casey if he sold Bianco sausage or some, you know, some knockoff. Let's hope he did. We gotta hit him back down. Yeah, knockoff, Brad.

Yeah, we. Can I tell you, Casey, that Dunkin' Donuts commercial from Saturday Night Live. It's the best. The vanilla nut taps is the best. Spoken the secret outside the thing because it's freezing. You think you're better than me? Yo go see the instigators. Go see instigators. Casey's awesome. I saw it already. It's very good. It's fun. Great movie. Fun. Yeah. I mean, he's a cool dude too. You know, he's, when you mess with these actors, they're all, you know, actors are different. They gotta play other people,

but he's like a regular dude that's an actor. How about Matt Damon? Have you guys had Matt Damon? Yeah, we haven't had him on yet. I wish. We're gonna get him here soon. Hey, that's what I watched. Martian, have you guys seen the movie?

Great movie. Great movie, underrated, but to me, Martian and that last part that he talks about is the Patriots. Just do the math. You figure it out and you just try to get to the next play, the next day, he doesn't say that, but that's what the whole Martian thing is.

You're just trying to get, do enough to get to the next. I could watch a whole movie, just the whole movie of him growing potatoes. I call it confidence porn. It's the type of movies I love. Moneyball, Spotlight, Martians. If Matt Damon is watching this, you're pretty much the root of the Patriots,

so why don't you come on and discuss it. Oh, Matt, is that that movie? The Martian, basically the Patriots. Good Will Hunting is still probably my all-time all-timer. It's not your fault. KC Affleck. Scott, we miss anything? We gotta have you come on because this was so fun. You gotta come on and do another game. A Browns game. I feel like we've missed so much. This is gonna turn out to be an unbelievable episode. People are gonna love this episode. I hope so.

Instant classic. Instant classic. A Browns game, we need it so bad. I wanna do a Browns game. Once again, everyone get ready. The NWSL Boston team. Yeah, NWSL Boston. We got a name coming soon.

We got a name coming soon. And truly thank you to. Get out of here, man. It's crazy that like, you know, we'll finish it with this. You're coming to a game. We're going to a game. I'm there. I'll bring my daughter. We'll give you a shirt that has the team name on it too,

once we get that out there. Perfect. But this goes to the point, and to toot your horn one more time before you leave, you know, I never got to play with you, but your work that you did through your career in New England, like I knew about it and I felt it even 10 years, whatever, how many years passed, I was in it. So the impact that you had on the organization

And into the the pivotal game that we went over over in this divisional round against the Raiders the snowball game You know, it's been felt throughout the whole organization through that whole 22 years that we were, you know at the top So I appreciate I mean that's no we we really you know I mean that too and and you know, it was so awesome to have you come on here and explain the stories and give us the nitty gritty insides and outs of what the Patriots think about, you know, when it goes into drafting, when it goes into the scenes behind the scenes. You know, that's something that our listeners,

they really enjoy and this is going to be a very fun episode. Thanks for coming. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Appreciate the words. That means a lot. I'm choking up over here with that. Me too, man. This is awesome. No, I'm serious because one of the things I used to tell my wife was, and again, I'm not trying to be corny here, is there was players after I left, I would say he could have been one of us. How you say about that? You were, but you were that next, that second half. I was like, you could have been a part of that first decade

without a doubt. I appreciate that. I mean, that means a lot because I remember being the kid wanting to be that guy when I first got in there. And then you're seeing Teddy Bruski, Kevin Falk, Troy Brown, Tom Brady, Raible, Willie Mack. We'll talk about, because this is part,

see and you mentioned that, and this is for the next show, but it's about that team, that locker room was built on having a larger number of selfless leaders than other teams. It was Anthony Pleasant who was in his 12th, 13th, 14th year when we drafted Jarvis Green, Richard Seymour. Jarvis Green. Legends.

Ty Warren and him teaching those guys how to take his job. That crap's rare. Yeah. Right? It's Troy Brown sticking around for an extra year and teaching people how to take his job. Welker. No, but there were selfless leaders in there. It was Teddy Bruski teaching Gerard Mayo how to become the Mike Linebacker.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, because you ultimately want to win and that gives you your best shot. And that's legacy stuff, man. That's legacy stuff. And that's legacy stuff, man. That's legacy stuff. That's real legacy stuff. I'm just glad you weren't around and to think, because I was a crazy asshole in that building. But there were different personalities.

I mean, Ty Law had a different personality. There were, I mean, what I understood, you were kind of like, and this is dating me again, you were a little Eddie Haskell-ish. Dennis the Menace. Dennis the Menace, yeah, yeah. But again, that's needed. When you're building a team, you need different,

but here's the thing is, the successful teams weren't robots, right? We talked about people being in, but you can have different personalities. Look at how different mine and Bill's personalities are. You know what I mean? And Ernie, and Charlie Weiss, and Romeo. There's a guy we didn't talk about enough.

Romeo and Crudel. My gosh. Lauer. For the Browns episode. For the Browns episode. Man. I feel like we we we talked about so much and we forgot so much almost because he's a wealth of just stories, information and he can compute it to verbal.

Incredible interview. He might be my new favorite person. We've already talked about doing another episode. Yeah, you think I'm a glazer, bro. You were glazed. I was I was full Jackie Glaze. Oh my God. It would also be really good. I want to hit him when he was with the Browns and then also the Chiefs, you know, in Atlanta. You didn't talk about the Chiefs at all.

At all. Yeah. And he was GM there for four years. Yeah. So we talked about the Falcons. We did talk about the Falcons. Oh my goodness. Yeah.

All right. Let's keep this day. This is such a long. We got about a thousand questions we got to ask him when he comes on next time. That was God was the man. That was awesome. So fun. Great episode. Great. Great episode. Well, what a game. What a guess. Thanks again to Scott Piolli and everyone go check out the new Boston

professional soccer team in WSL baby and WSL. I wanted to ask him how hard is it to name a pro sports franchise? I mean I bet you nowadays they do so many different like they probably do polls. Do they have like people that come in? I'm sure they have some agency. Yeah, agency. Yeah, something that does this. Yeah, the metrics and all this. What's a good name for a Boston girls soccer team, a women's soccer team? Something. Oh, the Boston Tea Parties. They like, no, maybe misogynistic. Am I canceled? I obviously like what the WNBA used to do where they're like women's teams were like Similar to the men's teams. There are like a little like homage like the revolution the comments. So the the lady revs

Your easters would be a great name the nor'easters Nor'easters, I want it. What are you a storm? Yeah, right. Like you could be Hurricane Nor'easter. No, it can't be a hurricane. I might wonder if they go the alliteration route to I feel like a lot of, you know, I mean, the New England Perfect Storm and just have like Wahlberg and Clooney. No, that probably doesn't work.

I guess they are leaning into Boston, though, instead of New England. Will it be? I guess it will be Boston. We're going to find out. I just don't know. Part three of this episode. Just don't go. Don't go full. We want to be English and trying to. Yeah, like to revolutionary.

Yeah. Or like all clubs. I love when they do that. I like the FC stuff. It's novelty in America. Yeah, but we don't even say football. The Washington football. Stupid. Yeah. Classic naming convention. The Washington football team was the best name, the or the the best team that name they had since

The r-words Washington football team was pretty cool. I don't I still like it Alright, what an episode what an episode what an episode that's been another episode of games with names Jackie's not happy about that Oh, I'm so happy, baby Subscribe on Apple podcast Spotify wherever you listen to podcasts Comment a game you want us to do and remember rate and review really do the reviews the reviews are good for us How reviews have been awesome? Remember to follow games with names on YouTube Instagram X tick tock and snapchat leave a message on the hotline

Those have been awesome. 424-291-2290. We will see you guys next week. Games with names of production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Gianna Perdenti. And I'm Jemay Jackson-Gadston. We're the hosts of Let's Talk

Offline from LinkedIn News and iHeart Podcasts. There's a lot to figure out when you're just starting your career. That's where we come in. Think of us as your work besties you can turn to for advice. And if we don't know the answer, we bring in people who do, like negotiation expert Morrie Teherary-Pore. If you start thinking about negotiations as just a conversation, then I think it sort of eases us a little bit. Listen to Let's Talk Offline on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey y'all, Nimmini here. I'm the host of a brand new history podcast for kids and families

called Historical Records. Executive produced by Questlove, The Story Pirates, and John Glickman, Historical Records brings history to life through hip hop. Get the kids in your life excited about history by tuning in to Historical Records. Listen to Historical Records on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. History is filled with unexpected stories, and I'd like to tell you about them.

I'm Aaron Manke, and for the past six years, I've been sharing history's most curious tales on my podcast, Cabinet of Curiosities, such as the surprising country that invented the croissant and the wrestling champ who won the White House. And now these amazing stories and many more have been compiled into my new book. Curious to know more? Pre-order Cabinet of Curiosities, available November 12th wherever books and audiobooks are sold. Learn more over at

GrimAndMild.com slash Curiosities. Back in 1969, four young musicians from Texas were hired to impersonate the British psychedelic rock band, The Zombies. It was one of the most bizarre and audacious cons in rock and roll history, and now the entire story has been uncovered in a new podcast. All episodes are available now. Listen to the true story of the fake zombies on America's number one podcast network, iHeart.

Open your free iHeart app and search true story of the fake zombies on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search true story of the fake zombies and start listening. Hey, I'm Jacquees Thomas, the host of a brand new Black Effect original series, Black Lit. The podcast for diving deep into the rich world of black literature. Black Lit is for the page turners,

for those who listen to audio books while running errands or at the end of a busy day. From thought-provoking novels to powerful poetry, we'll explore the stories that shape our culture. Listen to Black Lit on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect Podcast Network is sponsored by Diet Coke.