Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - 171. Tommy James

Episode Date: September 4, 2017

Rock 'n' roll legend Tommy James serenades Gilbert and Frank with some of his biggest hits ("I Think We're Alone Now," "Crystal Blue Persuasion") and discusses his troubled, decades-long relationship with notorious music mogul/mob associate Morris Levy. Also, "Sgt. Pepper" changes the game, Gene Krupa hits hard times, Hubert Humphrey calls in a favor and Tommy reveals the strange origin of "Mony Mony." PLUS: Alan Freed! Vincent "The Chin" Gigante! "Hanky Panky" tops the charts! Tommy pens "Tighter, Tighter"! And Ed Sullivan presents "Tony Jones and the Spondells"! Photos: Charles Eshelman www.charleseshelman.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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So, Gil, we lost three greats in the last couple of weeks. Joe Bologna. Wonderful Joe Bologna from a movie, My Favorite Year, that we talk about all the time. And I remember Joe Bologna popping up for one of those really scary, you know, pilots that they would hide in married with children. Oh, that's right. And it was Joe Bologna and Matt LeBlanc. LeBlanc was his son. Yes.

I have a memory of that. Where like the Bundys would say, hey, you know, a good friend, so-and-so is here. And we go, well, if they're such good friends, how come they've never once met? I remember that pilot. But he was a versatile guy who did a lot of things. Oh, yes. And very, very funny in the Sid Caesar part in My Favorite Year. Yeah.

And he was also in another one of his favorite naked movies. Oh, Blame It on Rio? Stanley Dunham. Yes. Yeah. You know, Joe was on our short list. People laugh at us and they say, you know, why don't you get this person? Why don't you get that person?

We don't know these people intimately enough to know who's not doing well. Yes. And who's sick. Obviously, we would put them at the top of the list. We did not know Joe was ailing. He was on my list and on our list. And we would have loved to have him. Just a funny guy and a real versatile talent good

in dramas too good in everything oh yeah and we also lost the great dick gregory who you were just speaking about dick gregory i met at the uhefner roast where i did the aristocrat and dick gregory came over and was complimenting me, shaking my hand. And he said, and I want to thank you for your beautiful mind. Isn't that great? That was wonderful. What a wonderful compliment. Yeah. It was just great.

And what a groundbreaker he was. Yeah. You know, we were just talking about him. How Hugh Hefner, he praised Hugh Hefner. Everyone else was roasting, but he had nothing but praise. Because he was instrumental in helping him out very early in his career. And he worked on behalf of civil rights. And he was an interesting guy, Gregory, who wasn't just a performer.

He had a very interesting life. Became an activist. Ran for president. Yeah. And then he went on to be this health food advocate. That's right. If you remember, he intervened in the situation with Walter Hudson, who was that obese man that they had to take down the walls of his house,

and Dick Gregory put him on a diet and on his health program. He did a lot of good things for a lot of people for a long time, and a legendary comic. If you guys don't know a lot about good things for a lot of people for a long time. And a legendary comic. If you guys don't know a lot about him, dig into the archives. And, of course, we'll talk more about these people, by the way, on the end of the year in Memoriam Show. This is just a short mention. We'll go into more detail. But, of course, last but not least, we have the legendary Jerry Lewis.

That was expected, not not unexpected but still shocking he yeah exactly I mean he was 91 and he had every ailment yeah in the past few years it looked like nothing would would stop him yeah but yeah no I mean he's just, and I said, I sent out a tweet, and I meant it. The French were right all along. That was a great tweet. Yeah. And you knew him. You got to know him.

One time I was at an event, and I got up and spoke, you know, dirty and bad taste and all my usual. Shocking. And Louis came over to me with that stern look on his face that scared you yes and he said gilbert you are out of your fucking mind and then he takes a pause and goes and i wouldn't want you any other way great i wish you had that what a compliment some some impressive compliments from j Lewis and Dick Gregory. Yeah. You've had some in your life.

And he was a comedy influence on you as a kid. Oh, absolutely. He's come up a million times on the show. We talked about him with Rupert Holmes. We talked about him with Mark Hudson and lots of people. I still remember being a little kid sitting with my parents, watching The Nutty Professor in a theater, and sitting with my grandmother watching The Family Jewels. Yeah.

Yeah. So he was more than an influence. He was kind of a comedy hero. Oh, yeah. For you as a kid. Yeah. Lewis. And there was no way.

See, that's something else. Like, i don't know the stories behind it but muscular dystrophy just dumped jerry lewis yeah and i thought it was just so wrong because you didn't watch the muscular dystrophy telethon you watched the Jerry Lewis telethon absolutely absolutely and and no matter where you were you had to be home to see him sing walk on absolutely absolutely it was it was it's it's showbiz history that will never come again oh no it's it belongs to a to another era, as did he. And people talk about him as a filmmaker and all the other achievements and innovations. And he taught film school.

Oh, yes. He did a lot of other things. And we've talked about the king of comedy. We have limited time here, but we have Drew Friedman coming on in a couple of weeks. And he knew Jerry, too. And we'll talk to Drew more about Jerry. And we'll do a whole Jerry show down the line.

But big loss. Oh, absolutely. So. There were a number of articles about the France mystery, or it's a bit of a mystery, I think, you know, that they. What always got me about that was, you know, in America, we always made fun of, oh, like the French. They look at this idiot Jerry Lewis as a genius and the next chaplain. And who is Jerry Lewis making a movie that takes place in a concentration camp? And then Roberto Bonini comes here. Yes, that's right.

Gets nominated for an Oscar yes yes yes and we're we we want to give him every Oscar there is we're calling him the next chaplain we're calling him a genius and we're we're honoring life is beautiful I know I guess it depends on the context anyway we can Jerry Lewis is a big topic that we can't really cover here in 10 minutes. And same with Dick Gregory. But we'll do an In Memoriam at the end of the year. We'll cover this in detail and we'll try to do a separate Jerry episode. Maybe we'll even put a little panel together of people that knew Jerry and worked with him.

Like Rupert and Drew and some of the other people. One of the so many superlative comments about Jerry when he died. Yeah. I loved Seinfeld's comment, which was, you know, if, if,

if you don't like Jerry Lewis, you know, Jerry Lewis is the essence of comedy was his thing. And Jim Carrey said there, there would be no me if there wasn't him. Yeah. That's so great. We'll do something about it down the line.

But anyway, we wanted to mark those passes. Three Giants. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. We're once again recording at Nutmeg with our engineer, Frank Furtarosa. Our guest this week is a musician, songwriter, and record producer, and one of the most popular and versatile and successful recording artists of his generation. As both a solo artist and the lead singer of the 60s group Tommy James and the Shondells, he recorded 14 top 40 hits, including the top 10 singles I Think We're Alone Now, Crystal Blue Persuasion, Sweet Cherry Wine, Dragon the Line, the rock anthem, Money Money, and the number one hits, Hanky Panky and Crimson and Clover.

In a career spanning seven decades, he's played to sold-out arenas, had his songs covered by everyone from Prince to R.E.M. to Bruce Springsteen, and he's recorded 23 gold singles, nine gold and platinum albums, gold and platinum albums and sold over 100 million records worldwide. His fascinating and at times frightening memoir is called Me, the Mob, and the Music. And trust me, once you start reading it, you won't be able to put it down. Please welcome to the podcast a show business survivor and a genuine rock and roll icon, Tommy James. Well, thank you. Yes. Wow.

Well, now I'm going to go take a nap. Yes. I don't know what to say. I'm impressed. Yes. Welcome, Tommy. And Jonathan Ash is also here with Tommy. That's right.

A gifted songwriter and singer and jazz guitarist. What do you call him? Chandelier. Oh, he's a chandelier, which is an offshoot. He's not an original chandelier. Well, it's an appendage. I'm a practicing Shondellist. Not a Shonda.

And he's a Shondellagoy. I am so proud to do the show. I want to tell you, I'm a huge, huge fan. Oh, thank you. And I just, you know, I've listened to you before, and I thank you so much. Oh, thank you and i just uh you know i've listened to you before and i thank you so much oh thank you what a what a kick nice thing to hear huh and and to show what a wild career you've had uh no less than martin scorsese wanted to do a movie well you know we have been uh really lucky with the book,

which you're talking about, Me, the Mob, and the Music, which came out several years ago. And as soon as we released the book, it was released through Simon & Schuster, we started getting calls for the movie rights and for the Broadway rights. And actually, Barbara DeFina is producing the movie, and Matthew Stone just did the screenplay,

and a director is being obtained right now as we speak. And things are moving along at a really nice clip, and I am so, you know, I've never done anything like this before. I've never done a film before and I'm a real novice in this and I am getting one hell of an education. Oh, yes. And it's really amazing because everyone who comes on the team is a separate negotiation and, you know, everybody's got a schedule and an ego and everything. So we are really, uh, uh, moving forward with this. And I'm, I'm just as happy as I can be.

And your first song, this is very weird. You stole from a group who they themselves stole from another group. Equal opportunity. We talking about Hanky Panky? Yeah, yeah, Hanky Panky. Well, this, of course, is back in high school. Yeah. And, yes, I saw, well, some friends of mine called the Rivieras made it with a record

called California Sun. Oh, sure. And I was so jealous I couldn't stand it. I'm from a little town in Michigan called Niles, Michigan. And I worked in a record shop all through high school. And I had my band all through school. And so I was so jealous I couldn't stand myself. And finally, we had two little label deals when I was in high school, one in junior high, one in senior.

And the latter one was a little label called Snap Records, and it was run by a guy named Jack Douglas, who was a DJ at WNIL radio studios in Niles. And so he came in and asked me if I would want to record for his label, my band and I. And we said, yes! In your best Gilbert Gottfried imitation. Yes, I did, actually.

But, you know, one of the four sides was Hanky Panky, which ended up being our first hit. And I had actually seen another group play it and saw what it did to people, putting people on the dance floor, which is really what it was all about. Now, when it first came out, it was just like a moderate. A local dud, really. Yeah.

Was it like three states? Yeah. Well, you know, it went number one in about four blocks. Okay. But we had no distribution, so the record died. This is in 1964 it was released. I was a junior. And so the record kind of came and went. And the following year,

I graduated in 65. And I took my band on the road. We played Chicago up through Wisconsin and Illinois. And so, you know, we had forgotten about the record. So in early 1966, I'm playing this dumpy little club in Janesville, Wisconsin. And right in the middle of my two weeks, the IRS shuts the guy down for nothing. And we get sent home. So we went home feeling like real dogs, you know, real losers. And as soon as I got home, that's how the good Lord works. Because as soon as I got home, I got the call that changed my life, that Hanky Panky, this record that I had recorded two years before that, was sitting at – they had bootlegged it and sold 80,000 copies in 10 days and was sitting at number one in the city of Pittsburgh. And, of course, Pittsburgh was a major market.

So that was a big deal. And I said, who is this? They finally convinced me they were for real. And I went to Pittsburgh and I couldn't put the original band back together. So I went there by myself and the record producer, Jack Douglas. And sure enough, we're number one outside the city limits. I'm nobody. As soon as we go into the tunnel and come out the other side i'm

a rock star and so i basically uh picked a group from pittsburgh to be uh the the new chandels and um uh we went to new york a week later and uh that was how it started a jeff barry song well yeah there's lots more but i just Jeff Barry. I'll stop and take a breath there. And you had, like, all these major record labels wanting you. When we got to New York, it was fascinating. Actually, I had never been to New York before. I'm like a frog in a hailstorm, you know. And all of the labels said yes i couldn't believe it uh cbs uh rca um atlantic

all the major labels and uh then uh oh labels like camasutra remember camasutra and uh finally the last place we took the record to was roulette Records. Now, Roulette was a fairly large indie label, and they'd had a lot of hits. And so we left the record, but I went to bed feeling real good that night, feeling like we were going to sign with one of the majors. And about 9 o'clock the next morning, we started getting calls from all the people who had said yes the day before uh now said listen tom we gotta pass i said what i said finally jerry wexler at atlantic uh told us the truth that morris levy the head of roulette records uh had called all the other labels and scared him off. He says, this is my record. Back off.

So tell us a little about Morris Levy. Sure. Well, of course, the thing that made it interesting is that Morris Levy was right out of the movies. I mean, he talked like this. He was about 300 pounds. He was about 6'4 1⁄2 or 5", and just a really big, intimidating guy.

And, of course, what we didn't know when, you know, it was the first offer I couldn't refuse. What we didn't know at the time when we signed was that Roulette Records, in addition to being a functioning indie label and a pretty good one, was also a front for the Genovese crime family in New York, which we didn't know anything about. We found out later. And so meeting Morris Levy was really interesting. And that was where we ended up. You're a kid. You 19 years old yeah when all

this is happening right first trip to new york amazing it must be pretty flattering that morris levy was uh literally uh willing to kill for you to sign with the godfather well i'll tell you the truth. You know, we, of course, didn't know who we were rubbing shoulders with. And, you know, these guys would use roulette as a social club, basically. And, you know, we'd meet somebody in Morris's office, and a week later, I'd see him on TV being taken out of a warehouse in New Jersey, you know, in handcuffs doing the perp walk. And isn't that the guy we just met at Morris' office? And it would be. And Morris Levy and all the guys that worked for him, you said in the book, always had a baseball bat in arm's length. Yeah, that's a story.

Well, it's the truth. Were they ballplayers? Played a great game of softball, yeah. Well, anyway, you know, what happened was, I'll never forget, at the signing, two big tough guys come walking into Morris' office and say, Mish, can we see you a minute? And he goes, excuse me. Everybody talked like,

yeah, I went to school. So, uh, uh, you know, he went over and we could just, we could hear the conversation and we'd,

we'd hear things like, you had to break the guy's legs. And I'm just bootlegging the record. Uh, and I turned over like this to redorts, who was the promo man. And he'd say, well, Tom, first trip to New York. I'm trying to make small talk. And so anyway, that's how it went.

And so what I'm saying is, but what's so amazing was they took the record to number one. They actually did. They actually did a great job of promoting the record. We had one hit after another, and they made it number one all over the world. And, you know, the funny part about all this is that if we'd have gone with one of the corporate labels... Hey, you said you would have been a one-hit wonder.

Exactly. We'd have been lucky to be a one-hit wonder. labels you said you would have been a one-hit wonder exactly we'd have been lucky to be a one-hit wonder you know uh uh we'd have been handed over to some in-house anr guy and that's probably the last time anybody would have heard from so this was bad news good news yes signing with more the whole story was yeah was uh good bad love hate well they were in the singles business they knew how to they were they didn't make it They knew how to make hit records. They knew how to make hits. And Morris was one, they called him the godfather of the music business. Yeah, he had a lot of stuff going on.

Of course, we were walking on eggshells up there because there was so much hanky-panky going on. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And you told one story in the book where Morris found out that there was some guy bootlegged. Oh, I love that one. Yeah, well, that was at the signing.

We found out that Morris found out somebody was bootlegging one of his records. And, well, he would turn to, you know, his secretary, Karen, and say, where's my baseball bat? Call my lawyer. As he was leaving, you know, you knew something was about to happen. But that's the kind of stuff that would go on at roulette. And I honestly, there was this, I constantly had these mixed feelings because, you know, once we realized that mechanical royalties were not going to happen, you know, we had to make a decision. Do we stay here, take our life on our hands and try to leave? Because, you know, Jimmy Rogers earlier had a real run in. Tell us about Jimmy Rogers.

Oh, wait. But just to complete that other story. Oh, I know which one you want. The guy in the warehouse. Yeah, he was printing it. Yeah. Well, you know, Morris wouldn't hesitate to

take in some of his goons in there and of course then he'd do something nice. You know, he would uh remember the guy is that the story about where the guy yeah the guy's kid started smashing yeah first they went in and smashed this guy's machine and they douse him with gasoline too and and morris lit a match well uh well you know yes i mean. Yeah. But I mean, but before he did all that before, I mean, he didn't follow through with that. Right, right, right. But the guy had a sick kid or something. And Morris put the kid in the hospital. I don't. I mean, I think I don't mean he put him in the hospital. I mean, the guy started paid for his crying and pleading that my I'm doing it because my son needs an operation. And then.

Morris ended up paying for the operation. Yeah. Yeah. They said they you said in the book that Morris went with this guy to the hospital and make sure or kill him if he was lying. Well, you know, the thing of it is. Because I always, you know, Morris was probably the most fascinating character I ever met in my life because he was such a dichotomy. He was so schizophrenic. It was, you know, I don't mean he was nuts. I mean that he was unpredictable.

And in many ways, he had some very noble qualities, but he always had this dark side. And I used to watch him do business and I'd be fascinated watching him operate. You know, and he knew everybody. I mean, you know, the next person that came in the office could be Cardinal Spellman. Right. Yeah. Because you had said that he came in with his henchmen, smashed all this guy's machines, doused the records with gasoline. And then when they went to the hospital, his this guy's son was in the hospital.

And Morris Levy called the doctor over and said, how much is this operation going to cost? And he took out his checkbook. Yeah. And he signed it and handed it to the doctor. Yes. Isn't that an incredible story? It is. That's something if I saw in a movie, I wouldn't believe. I know. Well, that's why the book would make such a great movie.

Well, you know something? It's cinematic. I feel like I had this, like I say, it was, you know, like an abusive father-son relationship. And, you know, sl an abusive father son relationship. And and, you know, the slaps the kid around, but he sends him to college. You know, I mean, it was it was it was that kind of a relationship. And I, you know, when Morris passed away, I really missed the guy, you know, in so many ways. It's strange to say, but I mean, that is what I'm left with. You were on the road when he passed away.

So you didn't really have closure. I was. And in the movie and in the book, we have this sort of imaginary conversation at the very end. In fact, we did this very new version of I Think We're Alone Now. Slow, acoustic, very pretty. slow, acoustic, very pretty. And it's amazing how the lyrics held up in this middle of this very solemn moment when Morris died.

And it's going to be the closing credits of the movie is this version of I Think Alone now. But I was literally very shocked. I didn't know that it was that close, that he was that close to dying. And I was going to go up and see him the following day when I got back to New York. And I never got a chance to say what I wanted to say to him. And it's so strange because it's kind of like how men and women will talk about a relationship and they'll say, well, it's complicated.

Yes. It was complicated. It was complicated. And it was like, because Morris Levy, he cheated you. It was like highway robbery. It's like 40 million or something like. But on the other hand, you know, every time I go to say something nasty about Morris and roulette, if it wasn't for Morris, there wouldn't be a Tommy James. And seriously, and I'm very aware of that fact.

So I have to almost look at this philosophically and almost spiritually. to look at because, uh, uh, you know, the guy, uh, you know, he was convicted. He was, he was, he went through a lot of bad stuff, but he, he made me happen, made the group happen and did so many things. I mean, he got me out of going to Vietnam. I, I would have been a, uh, I was, I was, would have been on my way. That's an interesting story in the book. Suddenly you're 4F. Yes. And you're not sure why.

That's right. That's right. Neither was anybody else. Calls were made. Well, just real quick, Morris was – well, let me set this up a little bit. I was 3A. I was married and had a child. And this is the week I did my first Ed Sullivan show, February of 69.

And I had gotten my draft physical notice in the mail and told that 3A was no longer a deferment. Everybody was 1A. So we were going, you know, that's when they were taking, you know, blind nuns to be, if you had a heartbeat, you were going to Vietnam. So, um, uh, Morris, as it was, was friends, was on the board of directors of the chemical bank. Wow. You talk about the fox guard in the hen house, right? And one of his best friends, who was also on the board, was the head of the selective service in New York.

And I'm not going to mention any names. Oh, no. So all I know is that when I took my physical, and at the end of the day, this very nasty-looking sergeant that gives you your draft card and your classification says to me, I don't know who you know. And he throws down the card, and it's 4F, and nobody was getting a 4F.

You know, they were getting a 1Y, which means come back in a year. So I was, I didn't argue with him. No. I just, you know, left. But that was just so amazing. The double-edged sword, again, was Morris Levy. And he was a powerful guy yeah and and in typical mob fashion you say in the book like any favor you'd ask of him he would do for you wait with the exception of paying you your money

right isn't that funny though how you know's laughing. He was worth tens of millions of dollars, but he would have still rather stolen $5,000 from you. Yes. You know, he would choose the dark side. You have a line in the book that he would rather do a deal dishonestly for a dollar than a $10 million deal legitimately. And he could have been a CEO of any major corporation. This guy was brilliant. He could hear hits. He could leap tall buildings at a single mile.

But, you know, he was just amazing. But I would watch this, and that's part of what made him so fascinating. But in typical mob fashion, he would do you a favor, but he would remember it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You had to do anything he asked you to do after that. Well, yeah. I mean, there was basically not getting nuts about not getting royalties.

Now, don't get me wrong. We weren't paupers. I mean, we're getting, you know, we had our monies from touring and from BMI, from the radio airplay, from commercials and all the other things we were doing. a lot of favors that was that boiled down to a lot of favors as far as he was concerned for me not you know going after my royalties yeah don't go away we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor fanduel casinos exclusive live dealer studio has your chance at the number one feeling We'll be right back. Exclusively on FanDuel Casino, where winning is undefeated. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem? Call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca. Please play responsibly.

Hi, this is Bill Macy and you're listening to Gilbert Godfrey's amazing podcast. Amazing Colossal Podcast. Amazing Colossal.. Amazing Colossal. I'll do it again. Okay. Hi, this is Bill Macy. You're listening to Gilbert Godfrey's Amazing Podcast. Colossal.

You keep leaving out colossal. You know, you can improvise it, Bill, and say anything you want. Isn't this Gilbert Godfrey's amazing colossal podcast with Bill Macy? Yes. That's what I just said. Ha! It's Gilbert and Frank's Amazing Colossal Podcast Hey, Gil. Yeah.

Why don't we, as long as we have the guitars here and we want to squeeze a couple of songs in, why don't we... Now, are we getting paid for this? No. It's just like Gilbert's the new Morris Levy. Yeah, yeah. I'm still singing for my supper here.

Now, can we do Money, Money? Well, you want to do that one first? Yeah. Okay, why don't we do... Do you want to sing Dragging the Line with me

or I Think We're Alone? Dragging the Line. He doesn't have the lyrics. He doesn't have the lyrics for Dragging the Line. How about I Think We're Alone? Okay. Well, do you want to

do your song first? No, no, no in the Light. How about I Think We're Alone? Okay. Well, do you want to do your song first? No, no, no. Why don't we do I Think We're Alone Now, and Gilbert will join in. Okay. And then you guys can do two that are unmolested. Well, let's see. We're going to indulge Gilbert. What do you think, Gil?

Yes. Gilbert. What do you think, Gil? Yes. Children behave. There you go. That's what they say when we're together. And watch how you play.

No publishing on this. They don't understand. And so we're running just as fast as we can. Stay with him, Gil. Holding on to one another's hand. Trying to get away into the night. And then you put your arms around me and

tumble to the ground. And then you say, I think we're alone now. There doesn't seem to be anyone around. I think we're alone now. The beating of our hearts is the only sound. Look at the wave. Wait a minute.

Look at the wave. We got to hide what we're doing. Oh, yeah. Because what would they say if they only knew? And so we're running just as fast as we can, holding on to one another's hand. Trying to get away into the night. And then you put your arms around me as we tumble to the ground. And then you say, I think we're alone now.

There doesn't seem to be anyone around. I think we're alone now. The beating of our hearts is the only sound. I... Just hold your horses. Okay. I think we're alone now. There doesn't seem to be anyone around.

I think we're alone now The beating of our hearts is the only sound I think we're alone now There doesn't seem to be anyone around Not bad! Yeah! anyone around. Not bad. Yeah. Eat your heart out, Tiffany. This is very spontaneous.

You do know that. Wow, we appreciate the way you carried him there, Tom. Well, thank you. I thought I was carrying you. You want to join and get a tambourine? You got a gig. Yes.

Another person that fascinated me, because the way he came about in the business, and it's like a who's who of the mob world and murders, and that's Tommy Bolle. And so there was a whole history of one guy shooting the other and the other guy stabbing that one and tommy came to a bad end huh well i'll tell you um well um the the best way i can explain is tommy eboli was morris one of morris's main partners up there. And he was a big guy in the Genovese family. Now, this is before February of 69. And he was up there a lot. And so what happened was Valentine's Day of 1969, Vito Genovese died in prison.

And Tommy Eberle became the don or the boss of the family. or the boss of the family. And so this really made Morris's position interesting because Morris was his partner in Roulette Records. So what happened was that a mob war broke out. Well, Eberle was a very uh influential guy and uh uh also over uh you know uh there was uh vinny gigante oh vinny the chin yeah yeah who walked around in the bathrobe right sure remember he was recently trying to prove his insanity by walking around new york and he walked around little italy in a speed up bathrobe yeah that. Remember he was recently trying to prove his insanity by walking around New York in a bathrobe?

He walked around Little Italy in a speed-up bathrobe. That's the guy. That's like, look how crazy. Yeah. He was also there quite often. And so this was a, you know, but Tommy Eberle was the boss of the family. And he was killed, actually, in 1972 in June. We were playing the Brooklyn Paramount Theater that night. It was a Saturday night. And about six blocks away, he was assassinated. He was killed. And of course, that just, you know, roulette just went nuts everything at roulette just went nuts

uh the following monday morning when i got up there and i wrote about it in the book but um uh it was it was quite a an amazing moment and it's that's about the time i started saying i got to get out of here this one where this can't end well and I'm leaving no matter what. So anyway, we'll talk about that. Yeah. Let's introduce John here. Just tell us how you met, how you guys got connected in the first place. Jonathan Ash was, actually, I met him in 1966 in a – The Tradewinds. The Tradewinds in a club in Newburgh, New York.

And he was the bass player in a group called The Coachmen, which just happens to be the old name of my group before – Billy King and The Coachmen? Yeah. Good one. So anyway, I met him there, and he was a good friend with Pete Lucia, who became our drummer in 67. And John was always a good friend. I didn't have a place for him in the group, but John would always fill in if there was an illness or if we needed somebody

in the studio. John was on a lot of the hit records. Mony Mony played bass. He'd play guitar on many of them. John has just been my friend for a very long time and he's back with the group now. It's awfully fun to have John to kick around. My story's going to sound really boring now. No, do it. Tell them about the Moany. The Moany Moany story is actually pretty funny.

So I actually did get drafted. I was drafted in 1968. You needed Morris in your corner. I did need him. I needed him bad. But I wound up going in, came home on leave, and Pete Lucia, our mutual friend, he was a childhood friend of mine, called me, said, listen, Tommy's going to do some demos. Would you like to come in and play bass? I said, sure, what am I doing? So we go in and started recording all through the night. And one of the songs was Do Something To Me,

but the other song we had no idea what it was going to be. It was just no lyrics, no title. Party rock. Party rock and roll. You knew you wanted kind of a nonsense thing like Boney Maroney or Hang On Sloopy or something? Yes, we did. But you didn't? We had this, let me just tell them we had this track with no lyrics and uh you know it just morphed

gradually into uh what we know is moni moni today but we had no title it was the night before the recording session we had the track and and we still had no title. We had lyrics, but we had no title. And we're looking for a sloopy or some kind of silly, you know, some two syllable word. And so Richie Cordell, my songwriting partner, and I walk out on our terrace, on my terrace, I'm at 52nd and 8th in New York. And we look up into the nighttime sky. And the first thing our eyes fall on is the mutual of New York insurance company, M-O-N-Y. Remember with the dollar sign in the middle of the O and gave you the time and the weather. And we're looking at money, money. That's it. It was like

God saying, here's the turtle. And so that became the title of the song. So John. So the rest of the story. Yes. Is I went back to my base at Fort McClellan, Alabama. And so we recorded in May of 68. And the song came out in August of 68. So here I am outside.

Somebody's got a boom box out there. And I hear this familiar music. I'm going, wait a minute. that's me playing on that record and it's great and all the gis are going oh yeah sure it is i don't oh yeah right nobody believed that was the uh that was the money story now there's there's one story in the book because i remember when I was a kid watching The Beatles on Sullivan that night, and you were watching it with your parents. Oh, yeah. And I remember under John Lennon's picture, it said, sorry, girls, he's married. Right.

And what did your father say? Oh, that's funny. He says, I wonder which one of those queers he's married. Right. And what did your father say? Oh, that's funny. He says, I wonder which one of those queers he's married to. Okay, Dad. Dad wasn't a big rock fan. You know, as long as we're talking about Sullivan, tell us about doing the Sullivan show.

Okay, well, the the Sullivan show. Okay. Well, the first Sullivan show that I did was what was terrifying. I don't know how else to say it. You know, the week before, we had just finished a tour in L.A. of the Canadian. We played across Canada with the Beach Boys. And we're down at the, uh, the riot house, you know, the continental Hyatt house, uh, in LA. And we're watching a couple of the Beach Boys were with us and our guys were in there. We knew we were going to be on the Sullivan show.

And I tried to pick their brain for, you know, they, they had done the show half dozen times and we're like, oh, so what happens? And so they tried to tell us, you know, they, they had done the show half dozen times and we're like, oh, so what happens? And so they tried to tell us, you know, Carl tried to tell me what, uh, uh, you know, what it was like that Sunday you do this and Monday or Monday you're off and, and Tuesday you start in, but in your makeups and your boots by the time you do the show. So, uh, I was really kind of panicky. I was really kind of panicky and so we wanted to watch Ed Sullivan

introduce next week's guest. Alright, right here right here next week, the youngster Tony Jones and the Spondells will be here. That's great. That's a damn good impression. So if I wasn't terrified

before, I'm going nuts now, right? So we get to the show. Monday was off. And Tuesday we start doing the rehearsals and getting the shots lined up and everything. And by the way, the Sullivan crew was unbelievable. I mean, they were all 106, but nobody did TV better than these guys did. So, you know, gradually I was asked if I would do Crimson and Clover live. Now, you know that that's a train wreck waiting to happen, you know, especially the fade.

There's no way they're going to get the fade right with the tremolo and everything. It's just not going to happen. So I beg them, the producer, Bob Precht, who was Sullivan's son-in-law, could you please let me do a lip sync? And so they talked to her. I said, well, okay, but you got to give us a four track so that we can mess with it

so it doesn't sound like the record. Okay, okay. So the studio is two blocks away. I live a block away over here. Let me go to the studio which I did and I gave him four tracks of mono so so all they could do was raise or lower the volume so um anyway you know the the vu meters didn't all match either I had it so there was more bass on one track than the other so anyway I gave it them. They never knew the difference when we did it. But the one thing I forgot to talk about was talking to Ed after the show.

If you're the headliner, you've got to talk to Ed. And it completely slipped my mind. So after we get through the – oh, then the first song I got to do, right? We were scheduled to do Money, Money, and then Crimson and Clover. Well, just before me on the show is Moms Mabley doing Abraham Martin. Oh, incredible. Anybody here? Oh, my God.

The cameramen are crying. The audience is bawling. You know, the rest of the crew back there, they're all crying. Everybody's just, and I got to go, okay, let's put your hands together. Hey, here we go. And I got to do moany, moany after Mom's Mabley. And watching Sullivan Boogaloo was a trick. Wasn't John Biner on one of those shows?

He was. We had John here. We had him on the podcast. So anyway, after the show after i'm done with crimson and clover uh uh yeah come on over here now tommy my boy i understand you were born and raised in new york city no no i wasn't so i explained you know i was born in Dayton, Ohio. I was raised in Niles, Michigan.

I went to school here. We did that. And he said, well, that's wonderful. Once again, born and raised in New York City. Tony Jones. So anyway, that was my first Ed Sullivan show. And the Sullivan show was kind of... What do you want to do now?

Well, I was going to say the Sullivan show was a turning point for you in a number of ways, because when you were a kid, you saw Elvis on there. Well, yes. A circle had been made. Yeah. Did you pinch yourself at some point and say, how the hell did I get here? Doing the Sullivan show back then was just the most amazing feeling. It was like, you know, being at Yankee Stadium. It was, I mean, there was... Yeah, I mean, doing the Sullivan Show back then was just the most amazing feeling. It was like, you know, being at Yankee Stadium.

It was, I mean, there was Disneyland, everything. Yeah, I was a kid. I saw Elvis here. I saw the Beatles here. And now I'm here. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, it was, you know, nothing could be that exciting.

It was like falling in love for the first time. Like hearing your voice on the radio for the first time. You know, all that stuff. And there was another story in the book that you were booked on a show with the legendary drummer, Gene Kruper. And so tell us what that was like. Well, that was pretty sad. It was the first time I had ever done, uh, Atlantic city and, um, uh, you know, steel pier. And this is, goes back to the spring of 67. And, um, I remember I was doing it with Ricky Nelson and I, I, you know, both of our names were in, in 40 foot letters. You know, he was doing the, uh, the theater and I was doing and I was doing the, well, whatever you call it,

the teen thing at the big geodome, they called it. And, in fact, I followed the diving horse. So I always knew when I was going to go on. The diving horse and mom's marriage. Yeah, right. I'm going to follow. I was going to go on. The diving horse and mom's movie. Yeah.

So anyway, I go back and I look up on stage and just before us is playing this small big band. You know, it was like three horns, three saxes, three trumpets. It was a small version of a big band. And they sounded really good. And this drummer was sort of older. I didn't recognize anybody. And we go back to the dressing rooms and I always make it a point to, you know, say hello to whoever the opening act is. And so I went and I looked and there he was. And I was amazed he was on two

And I was amazed. He was on two folding chairs, passed out in his stage clothes. And the stage manager told me that he – I looked over. I couldn't believe it. It was Gene Krupa. And, oh, I just felt terrible. And the stage manager told me that, you know, this is what they do in between shows. They just wake him up for the next show. He was apparently a heroin addict. And I I just felt awful because he was a big hero of mine.

And he died later that year. But I just that was a story I relate in the book. Yeah. And a cautionary tale in a way, because you wound up having your own demons. Oh yes. And I went and took another pill and, you know, I, I, the whole thing had had great significance for me because, uh, yeah, I had my own problems. Right now. And, and tell us how you first found out about what they were calling diet pills. Well, yeah, I was. My wife's father worked in the post office in Miami and would send samples from pharmaceutical companies up to, you know, vitamin pills and things like that up to us in New York. And this is, oh, the fall of 66. And so we'd get these cartons of all kinds of different pills,

orange ones and green ones and so forth. different pills, orange ones and green ones and so forth. And so some of them were what they called diet pills. What they really were is amphetamines. And so I popped them, and I felt great, went in the studio. And, you know, before I knew it, I was hooked on them. I took a lot of them during the uh, the 1960s and I, I quit after that, but it was, uh, it was a real, you know, they will make you psychotic. And so behind all this other stuff was going on was this, uh, addiction to amphetamines. And, uh, uh, so I was, uh, I was doing the sixties.

And, um, you said you'd stay up for days on end i would how many we'd be writing and i just wouldn't want to quit you know i would just uh pretty soon it would be the next morning and and uh there i was in um 1986 i finally uh went to the betty ford center Ford Center because I'm an alcoholic too. You know, it didn't matter. And I finally rid myself of a life of addiction in 1986, and I've been sober for 31 years now. Good for you. Thank you.

You survived a lot of stuff. Yeah. That's why we put that in the intro. No, that's true. You're quite right. Yeah. Yeah. That's why we put that in the intro. Yeah. No, that's true. You're quite right. Yeah. Indomitable is what you are.

Well, I'm still here. Thank God. A lot of stuff happened. The good Lord was looking out for me. I mean that sincerely. Let's talk about one of the fascinating parts of the book is when music changed. When you guys were, you'd said, first of all, you'd said you'd kind of inadvertently invented bubble gum, which is one of my favorite things in the book. Me too.

You're off working for Hubert Humphrey. You guys were campaigning for Humphrey, and everything changed. Music changed. Yes, right under our feet. Well, it was interesting because a lot of things actually were leading up to this. The Sgt. Pepper album did so well. The previous, this is 19, late 67 now. And when the record companies saw the money

that could be made from albums rather than singles, that's really what changed. Only it took several months for that to really come about. And in 1968, Hubert Humphrey's office had called us and we went out on the road. And with Hubert Humphrey, we became his opening act, basically. And well, before that, you were working with Bobby Kennedy. Well, we had done a rally. Yeah. Just one rally with Robert Kennedy and Gene McCarthy. And the mayor of New York was running for president, John Lindsay.

Mayor Lindsay, yeah. Yeah. And this was in New York. And we had been asked if we would play. I can't think of the name of the park, but it's down in South Manhattan. Union Square? Was it? In that area. Yeah, okay.

Union Square? In that area. Okay. And a big park and an outdoor stage and a lot of college kids, you know, a lot of kids came up and were yelling, sell out, sell out at us, you know. But we played and all the candidates spoke and we got put on a list. And so as a matter of fact, we were asked to play at the Robert Kennedy, you know, at the Ambassador Hotel where he was assassinated later that year. where he was assassinated later that year. And, of course, we couldn't go because we were playing a gig in, of all places, Dallas, Texas. That's a weird part of the book. Oh, it's very strange.

You're in Dealey Plaza. Yeah. And then you got back and— That's right. This was actually the day before the primary in L.A., the primary in California. And so we had done a gig called the World Teen Fair that night. And the next morning I'm headed back to New York and I had to stop at Daly Plaza and went there. I was amazed, by the way, how tiny an area this was.

Really tiny. Have you been there, Gil? Oh, yeah. You think of it as being large, you know, this humongous area, but it's really very small. It's such a moment of history. It is. You picture it.

It's enormous. The only thing I can compare it to is going to Pearl Harbor and being where the Arizona went down. And there's this solemnness, this quiet, this incredible quiet that the silence is deafening. I mean, it's really amazing. So anyway, I then left feeling really weird. I had a bad case of the weirds after I went there and saw everything for myself. And I go home back to New York. I turned on my television as I got in and started

to unpack just in time to hear that there'd been a shooting at Kennedy headquarters in Los Angeles. And I couldn't believe it. And so, you, you know, stayed up all night watching and finally the, uh, he was pronounced dead the next day. And I just went into a funk. Uh, I can't explain it really. I just, uh, I felt like the world was ending at that point. And, um, you know, I was 21 years old and, uh, uh, had seen a lot of this stuff. I couldn't believe it. And a couple of weeks later, we get a call from Hubert Humphrey's office, who was vice president running for president at the time. And they knew he was going to be the nominee. And they asked if after the convention, and they asked if after the convention we would meet him in Wheeling, West Virginia and play for the rally.

Okay, sure, okay, we will. Absolutely, I'd be honored. So we're watching the night of the convention. We're watching up at my apartment, watching TV, and all the kids are getting beat up, and we go, what in the hell have we got ourselves into? You know, is every rally going to be like this? Is, you know, is there going to be this kind of violence everywhere we go? And, uh, so anyway, he finally got on at

two o'clock in the morning or something like that. And, uh, we indeed met him the following, uh, Wednesday or Thursday in Wheeling, West Virginia, and he couldn't have been nicer to us. He was. He winds up writing liner notes. He did. We did the whole campaign. He asked me to be president's advisor on youth affairs. I think I said something like, believe me, the youth are having affairs and I'm just the guy. But but we became friends as friendly as you can be with a 21 year old guy running for president. But he was just so good to us and gave they gave us a jet from Butler Aviation out of LaGuardia. And any time we could make it, we'd hook up with him. And we were there right until he lost at the Leamington Hotel that night.

And you said, I think it was with the BBC. Yeah. You told them you were. Yes, I told them that I felt it was, I was supposed to, Money Money was the number one record of the decade in England. It was bigger over there than it was here, believe it or not. And we were asked to do a tour over there in the Top of the Pops show, which was a big BBC show.

And I had to cancel because I was doing the Humphrey campaign. I just felt it was more important. And I said, please understand, they said we will never play another one of your records, which they didn't do. And I got into a big fracas with the BBC over that. I didn't mean to. But at any rate, that's how, what was your question? Yeah, no, that's just how they responded. Yeah.

And they. That whole thing was a turning point, too, because you talk about in the book how you came back. Yes. And. Music changed. I'm sorry, I got into this whole thing. You asked me about music. That's okay.

No, the Humphrey stuff. Don't teach it, ask me. How you doing, Tom? The Humphrey stuff's interesting, too. And before I forget, Mayor John lindsey gave florence henderson crabs yes yes that's what she claimed wow yes well that that blows my story john what were you doing when when he was doing all this stuff with humphrey right around that time were you still in the military i was mad

yeah he was trying to heal from moany, moany. I was putting a gas mask on. Oh, you were still pissed off. That's right, poor John. Well, I just wanted to say, Hubert Humphrey then ended up doing the liner notes to Crimson and Clover. Right-o. The liner notes to the album. And, you know, we did commercials, and he did commercials for us and everything. But when we left on the campaign in August, the biggest groups on the radio were, you know, the Rascals, the Association, us, probably Jerry Puckett, you know, all singles acts, right?

When we got back 90 days later, it was all albums. It was Led Zeppelin. It was Crosby, Stills and Nash, Led Zeppelin, Blood Sweat and Tears oh I miss those singles days yeah well you know you know and then suddenly everything changed and we realized that if we didn't start selling albums our career was probably over and and Roulette oflette, of course, was, was a singles label. They've never really sold albums. So at that moment, thank God we had a little record called Crimson and Clover and Crimson and Clover allowed us, I can't think of any single we ever did that like Crimson and Clover that would have allowed us to make that jump from AM top 40 singles to FM album-oriented progressive rock. And I can't think of any other record that would have ever allowed us to do that.

Was that a happy accident, or were you consciously trying to make the transition into more psychedelic? Well, both, but we were very lucky because Crimson and Clover really— and then we almost blew the release of Crimson and Clover. I mean, I tried to ruin my career. I tried so many ways. You could relate. Yes. You could have been my advisor.

Perhaps you heard about his infamous tweet. No. What did you do? Perhaps you heard about his infamous tweet. No. What did you do? Did you guys prepare? What did you plan to play?

Oh, plan. Oh, and another thing. You had dealings with the guy who was the real-life Tony Soprano. Well, yes. You know, many of the characters on The Sopranos were characters from real life. Oh, there was a Morris character. Slight change. Yeah, they called Morris Moish,

because his real name was Moisha. But, you know, Hesh on The Sopranos was the Jewish record producer who had the horse farm in upstate New York. Recognize it immediately. Yeah. And, of course, Tony Soprano was Tony Salerno. Fat Tony. Yeah, Fat Tony.

So, I mean, yeah, you know. And I've become very good friends with little Steven, Stevie Van Zandt. And he's introduced me to so many of the guys on the show. And it was one of my favorite shows. It was The Sopranos. Well, unlike them, you lived it. They were actors cast to play parts. Did you ever watch The Sopranos and go, no, no, no, that didn't happen?

Wait. Well, you know, I obviously saw some of the characters were people that were taken from real life. You know, some of them that I had rubbed shoulders with. What else did you guys prepare to play? And I'll keep Gilbert out of this one. And for the good of music. A medley of my cowboy hits, wasn't it? No, no.

Look over yonder What do you see? The sun is rising. Most definitely. And a new day is coming. People are changing. Ain't it beautiful? Crystal blue persuasion.

And you better get ready Gonna see the light Love, love is the answer Maybe that's alright So don't you give up now. It's so easy to find. Just look to your soul and open your mind.

Crystal blue persuasion It's a new vibration Crystal blue persuasion Crystal Blue persuasion Better get ready He looks down On every green field In every town

Gonna see all of his children In every nation There'll be peace and good Brotherhood Peace and good brotherhood And crystal blue persuasion Wow. That sounded great. Yeah. Thank you. Wow. That sounded great.

Yeah. Thank you. It was missing me, but still. Considering. I told you, you get a tambourine, you got it good. How did that song come together, Tom? Well. Because it was a big departure.

Yeah, it was one of those songs that just kind of happened by accident. There was a we were playing at college in Atlanta and a kid came up to me with a poem called Crystal Persuasion. And I went, whoa. And we were always on the make for neat titles or neat hooks, something. And I looked at it, I thought that was such a great combination of words. It had nothing to do with the song, the end of the song. So we went back to the room, and Mike and Eddie and I wrote the song in about 20 minutes. And Eddie came up with the, just a little line like that. And it was really taken lyrically from Book of Revelation in the Bible. And then we went in the studio and produced it, and we just totally overproduced it.

It was, I never have ruined a record like I ruined Crystal Blue Cliff. And I went and we had guitars and we had a full set of drums. And I just remember looking at the engineer, I says, this is not the song. And so we spent the next two weeks unproducing and pulling everything out. And when it ended up finished, it was nothing but a conga drum, a flamenco guitar, a little rhythm guitar with the tremolo on it, and an organ. No drums, nothing. And so we had to empty it out and let it breathe to be crystal blue. Great.

It's one of my favorites. Thank you. You, early on, when you were desperate to make a record, you met some guy, and he was going to produce a record yeah you met some guy and he had he was going to produce a record for you and and you he had all the best recording equipment and everything and then he said to you but first you have to record my song yes yes one catch to this uh, you're talking about the guy who recorded Hanky Panky, Jack Douglas, who was the morning man on WNIL radio. And he, this is back when I was. Didn't he go on to work with John Yoko?

Oh, not the same Jack Douglas. Oh, okay. Different Jack Douglas. And so this is way back in Niles when I was about 15. He brought us into the, 16. He brought us into the studio and he says we were going to do hanky panky you know right away and he says oh by the way guys you got to record I want you before we do your song we got to do my song oh so we we did his song and it was it was some god-awful thing. It was called Pretty Little Red Bird.

Do you remember any of it? Yes, I do. Okay. Fantastic. Pretty little red bird, an Indian maid, with a feather in her hair and a big black braid. Redbird, redbird, pretty little redbird, I'm in love with pretty... Oh, God.

Fantastic. So, anyway, that was... Paul Revere and the Raiders kind of a thing. And that wasn't a hit. No, and I couldn't understand it either. It had everything. Musk. Anyway, so that died quickly, thank God.

And we got to do our song then after that. That was Hanky Panky. Yeah, and the rest is history. And speaking of producing, tell us about the new, you're in the studio. I am. We're doing a brand new album called Alive. John with you in there? John is with me, very definitely.

Great, great. And we are planning to come out with the album the first of the year. Wonderful. And it's my first studio album in 10 years. And we've got a lot of interesting people. Stevie Van Zandt's on. We did a remake of Dragging the Line, by the way people stevie van zandt's on we did a remake of dragging the line by the way which stevie van zandt is on and he he killed it he really killed

you can't wait to hear that he's great and um uh oh it's just uh there's a bunch of people on it there with me but uh i must tell you um this is a real labor of love and uh a lot of songs that I was going to record years ago and just never did, and we did them on this album. The album is called Alive. Alive. Yeah. Which I think is a pretty, oh, it's one of those titles that you remember. Yeah.

Now, you also were around with the payola scam. Oh, yes. Sure. Well, the original payola with Alan... Alan Freed. Alan Freed. Yeah. I wasn't around for that.

But do you know that Morris Levy was his manager? Of course. I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding you. He was Alan Freed's manager. And together, they came this close to trademarking the term rock and roll. Can you imagine? Wow. roll. Can you imagine? Wow.

Can you imagine what that is? Now, and isn't it too that they save their own asses by having Alan Freed? Take the fall. Yeah. Well, that's probably true. Alan died penniless, unfortunately. I never got a chance to meet Alan. He had already passed away by the time I made it.

But, you know, his presence was very much felt up there. Not only was Morris his manager, but all the history. Because he was like one of the biggest. Came from Cleveland and he was on WINS for years. And it speaks to Morris's vision a little bit, too, because didn't he bring Allen in from Cleveland to New York? He did. And had the wherewithal to realize that rock and roll was his thing. Yeah.

And he also managed Birdland. I mean, he did. He invented Birdland. Invented Birdland. Morris, it was his nightclub. Yeah. And K-Tel Records was also part of his legacy. Morris' story is fascinating because-

He's kind of a genius. He really is. And it really was. What happened at Birdland was all these great artists. Stan Getz wrote Lullaby of Birdland. It was Morris's first copyright. Morris got into the publishing business first. And I'll never forget the story of, you know, he had a jukebox in Birdland.

And the ASCAP guy came around and asked for money, you know said money you know you owe for the and morris thought the guy was trying to shake him down and so he asked his lawyer he said what's up with this guy he says no you gotta pay me he says boy am i in the wrong business so he has he has all of these artists write songs and record and his jazz catalog was unbelievable. He started a record company. And Latin music too. Yeah. And then George Goldner came along and George Goldner started making records. And, you know, he had End Records, Gone Records.

George Goldner did Little Anthony, did the Flamingos, the Chantels. And, of course, Morris ended up with all this stuff because George was a gambler and would lose tons of money at the racetrack. Morris would buy his masters and buy his publishing. And Morris ended up with this incredible master catalog and publishing catalog of rock and roll and jazz. And, I mean, it was just before he was 30 years old. I mean, it was just an amazing story. And Morris is really the star of the book.

He really is. You know. Well, it's the relationship. It is this very weird, conflicted father-son dynamic. And it is one of these things like, as all the money he cheated you out of, and yet had you gone with another label, you would have had hanky-panky.

And that would have been it. And you'd be singing at a county fair. On a boat somewhere. Yeah. Which leads me to a question from one of our guests, and we'll wrap this up soon. Singing at a county fair. Yeah. On a boat somewhere. Yeah, yeah. Which leads me to a question from one of our guests, and we'll wrap this up soon. But this is a little thing we call Grill the Guest, where our listeners get to ask the guest questions. And this is from Laura Pinto, and she says,

Hi, Tommy. Having read your book, which was fascinating, I'm left with the impression that despite all that happened with Morris, there was still a genuine love for the man. Is that so? And do you think it was mutual? Well, it is so. And, I mean, whether it's mutual, I don't know. It's hard to say.

That sort of would have been wrapped up in my last conversation with him that I never got a chance to have. But whenever I think of Morris, listen, and um but whenever i think of morris i listen there's uh he's i'm as tied to to morris levy and roulette as you can get because my entire adult life my my whole uh everything i do and everything i am was brought to the surface because of being with roulette records so you know i'm i'm blessed. Yeah. When I get to heaven, I got to ask God about a few of these things.

What do you have in mind? What are you thinking? I heard you say you're still haunted by him in some ways. Oh, yeah. Well, you can bet that if this book and story had, if he'd been alive, he'd want to own it. He'd demand it. John, did you have the pleasure of meeting Morris at any point?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. How you doing? What was your experience of the man? I don't think I was in his office for more than five minutes at a time. I was just like in and out with Pete. Intimidating, though. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. He was quite a character. Big guy. Yeah. In charge. He was. He was very intimidating.

All the time. I hope when the movie's made, you have a role in the casting of the film. John's going to play a corpse. But I'm going to speak, though, so this way I'll get paid. The lines are easy, and there's not a lot to memorize we should we should say there's kind of a happy ending because when your music finally goes to cd tommy you did get your royalties well yeah you know what was amazing is when morris uh in 1987 was convicted of racketeering and all the rest. And he was sentenced to 10 years in prison.

And so the first thing he did was unload the publishing and then the masters. The publishing went to EMI, which ended up with Sony. And the masters ended up with EMI, which ended up selling the Warner brothers Rhino. So, you know, my music is in the hands of reputable people now. And we have this, so I,

but it, but it was, you know, like more, you know, like Moses going to fair, let my music go. And I have, you know. And when it finally happened, it was very strange because we made back a great portion of what we had lost. Right, of course.

Can I ask you a question? We had Peter Asher here. We had Rupert Holmes here, Ron Dante, other guys you know. Ron Dante is a good friend. He's amazing. What a wonderful guy. But what a history he's had. We had Mark Hudson here, too, who I, you know. Ron Dante's a good friend. He's amazing. What a wonderful guy. But what a history he's had. We had Mark Hudson here, too, who I know you know.

And we asked Ron and we asked Peter this question, and I think we asked Rupert, too, who had a big hit with Pina Colada, and we want to ask you, what is it, because you alluded to it before, what is it like, very few people on the planet can answer this question, what is it like to have that hit record for the first time, to experience that? Well, it's like falling in love for the first time. It never can feel that good again. And it, honestly, when Hanky Panky hit, it was such a monster record and it was, it felt so good. You know, the funny part is you memorize everybody else's record when you listen for your record on the radio.

Well, you were working in a record store, so you were plugged into that world. That's true. And then we were so lucky to have more and more and more hits. We ended up doing about 110 million records with Roulette. We did 23 gold singles, 32 chart records, just an immense number of records sold. And we were so lucky. I mean, there's so much, of course, we didn't go into about music and, you know, records and what happened here, what happened there. I just, all I can say is that I've been really blessed to be able to do what I love doing the

most. All my life. And I can't believe here we are 51 years later and we're still doing this i mean i am just so lucky and so honored and so blessed i mean that sincerely i thank the good lord and the fans for the kind of longevity and and you one time got an accountant yes to approach morris levy about your 40 million yeah and what did morris levy say to your accountant you use that and they'll fish you out of a river that was to my accountant he said tom i don't think this is gonna work yeah i think you better find it the scariest part in the book is maybe is where you take it on the lam to n because Morris disappears one day. Well, let me just tell you there was – well, I don't want to get too deep into this, but what it boiled down to is in 1971, there was a big gang war going on in New York City.

And the Gambinos were taking over the other families, and Morris was on the wrong side. So, oh, there were so many people who went. Every time you picked up a newspaper, there was another casualty. Somebody was – a body was found here or there. And so I was told, I know in certain terms, it would be a good idea if I left town. Morris suddenly left town and went to Spain with Nate McCalla, who was his enforcer. And so we were all left holding the bag at roulette. So I was told by my lawyer, be a good idea if I left town for a few weeks till this blows over.

So I ended up going to Nashville and Pete Drake and I and DJ Fontana Elvis' drummer and Scotty Moore who was Elvis' guitar player made an album down there called My Head, My Bed and My Red Guitar it sold four records but Rolling Stone

said it was the best album I'd ever done so I'll take the Stones thing but at any rate, I came back, you know, several months later. But I had to, as they say, go on the lam. You went to the mattresses. Yeah. Here I am, this hit kid from the Midwest. I know.

I still got a hayseed sticking out of my tooth. It's a great story. You know, you're reading it. Gilbert and I were talking before you got here. You're turning the pages of that book, and you're saying, this is a movie. You know? Well, it felt like it. Hopefully with the music in the movie, too.

Well, there's some room for a couple of songs in there. Yeah. I'm going to be, by the way, I'm going to be co-producing this film with Barbara DeFina and also going to be doing a lot of the music. So it's going to be a real interesting... It has to happen. Yeah.

I hope so. Your mouth, the God's ears. And tell us about the tour, too. Where are you guys? We are all over. If you want to come to our website, just Tommyames.com you can see where we're playing we're performing we're on facebook uh twitter we uh you know we're

doing the social media didn't you just play with the grassroots some some of these guys cow sills you just did a you just did a show i had a 50 year um at uh the garden stay arts taylor yes yeah uh at the Garden State Arts Center. Jay Taylor. Yes. The PNC Arts Center in New Jersey. We just did a 50-year celebration of my career, and we had so many of the people that I was involved with and that I knew. And, yeah, the councils were there, Alive and Kicking, who I produced. Oh, yeah, Titer Titer.

You know that song, Gil? Oh, how does that? You know it. Tommy produced that record. Hold on, just a little bit tighter now, baby. Oh, I love that one. I love you so much and I can't let go. Hold on, just a little bit tighter now, baby.

Well, you know that. Always love that one. Thank you. Alive and kicking. And before you go, even if it's just one stanza of the song, I gotta sing Moany Moany. Oh, okay, okay. But I need the words to do it. They'll carry it.

Yeah. Well, here she comes now, say, moany, moany. Well, shoot him down, turn around, come on, moany. Hey, she give me love and I feel all right, yeah. You got me tossing a turn. But I feel all right. I said, yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You make me feel. Money, money.

Money, money. Money, money. Money, money. Money, money. Money, money. Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, Mooney, All right, that's as much as I do without getting paid. You got room for Gilbert on the tour? Union scale is next. You don't know how you made his month with that one. I was enjoying that a lot, Gil. Yes, yes. Right until you came in.

Yes. You're a sport, Tom. And John. That's what most women have said to me. I told you. He said you're a sport. No, no. I enjoyed you until you came in.

Oh. Yeah. We will send you a clip of Gilbert singing MacArthur Park with Jimmy Webb right in that chair. MacArthur Park. Yes. MacArthur Park is fog Webb right in that chair. MacArthur Park. Yes. MacArthur Park is fogging in the rain. You got it.

He did Wichita Lineman too. We're going to cut an LP. That's a hard one. Ooh. You know, you're right. You could take these songs and have him sing his version. I like that.

I like that idea. That would sell, baby. I got him doing Sugar Sugar, Wichita Lineman, Rainbow Connection. Yes. Tie a yellow ribbon. Nice to be around. You did say he sat with Paul Williams. You know, you got a market for that.

You could sell that to mental patients. Yes. That's right. When the cops want to disperse rioters, it would also come in handy. So the album is called Alive. Yes, you remember it, see? Yes. The tour, go to Tommy's website, TommyJames.com.

Right. And the book is Me, the Mob, and the Music. Yes, sir. One hell of a ride with Tommy Janes and the Shondells. Thank you so much. It's been wonderful. I had a ball.

I got to tell you, I haven't had this much fun since the Schwartz Bar Mitzvah. You're too kind. We had a ball. Thanks, John. Thanks for doing this. And it's John...

Ash. Oh, and send people to John Ash's website, too. John, what is that? JonathanAsh.com, but leave the last A off for savings. By the way, did I hear you make a Broadway Danny Rose reference in an interview that I saw online? Yeah. You said to the interviewer, may I interject something at this juncture?

And I said, I recognize that. You got that, right? You gave yourself away. Thanks, guys. This was a treat for us. It's great. So wonderful. Thanks, guys.

This has been Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadre. And we have been talking about how former New York mayor, John Lindsay, gave Florence Henderson crabs. Is that what we been talking about how former New York mayor John Lindsay gave Florence Henderson crabs. Is that what we were talking about? Yeah, and then we had some musicians. Yeah. We want to thank Carol, too, for setting this up.

Thank you so much, Carol, for your work. And thank you, thank you for letting me sing to do it. You were good. Yes, with the great Tommy James. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you for letting me sing to do it. You were good. Yes. With, with the great Tommy James. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Tommy.

Thank you guys. A treat for us. Thank you. Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast is produced by Dara Gottfried and Frank Santapadre with audio production by Frank Furtarosa. Our researchers are Paul Rayburn and Andrea Simmons. Web and social media is handled by Mike McPadden, Greg Pair, Nancy Chinchar, and John Bradley-Seals.

Photography by Charles Eshelman. Special audio contributions by John Beach. Special thanks to John Murray, John Podiatis, and Nutmeg Creative. Especially Sam Giovonco and Daniel Farrell for their assistance. Thank you.