Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - 241. Dick Cavett

Episode Date: January 7, 2019

Gilbert and Frank kick off 2019 by welcoming back the legendary Dick Cavett, who shares delightful anecdotes about Jack Benny, Stan Laurel, Truman Capote and Walter Winchell (among others) and looks back on memorable interviews with Orson Welles, John Lennon, Frank Capra, George Harrison and Laurence Olivier. Also, Peter Lorre fails an audition, Lily Tomlin storms off the stage, Bob Hope comes to Lincoln, Nebraska and Jack Paar sabotages "Fat Jack" Leonard. PLUS: Oskar Homolka! "Chuckles Bites the Dust"! The return of Richard Loo! Johnny Carson disses Jerry Lewis! And Dick introduces Groucho at Carnegie Hall! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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This is where the DJ talks. Don't say anything. Okay. Hey, I'm Dave Thomas. You're listening to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal cod... Cod pass? Codpiece.

This amazing colossal codpiece. All amazing, colossal Cod Piece. All right, let me try that again. Hi, I'm Dave Thomas. You're listening to Gilbert Gottfried's Colossal Amazing Podcast. Is it? It's Amazing Colossal Podcast. One more time.

Hi, I'm Dave Thomas. You're listening to Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. One more time. Hi, I'm Dave Thomas. You're listening to Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. Perfect. Yes. Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. I'm here once again with my co-host, Frank Santopadre, and our engineer, Frank Ferdarosa. Our guest this week is back for a third go-round in the hot seat. And we're both thrilled and surprised that he continues to indulge us.

He's a writer, comedian, occasional actor, best-selling author, New York Times columnist, Emmy-winning talk show host, and one of the most recognized and admired pop culture figures of the 20th century. You've seen him in numerous movies and TV shows, including The Phil Silvers Show, The Odd Couple, Annie Hall, Cheers, Beetlejuice, Kate and Allie, Saturday Night Live, The Simpsons, and Children's Hospital, to name a few.

Wow. He's also appeared in successful stage plays, including Into the Woods, The Rocky Horror Show, which I did too. Yeah. Variety specials, narrated documentaries, perform both magic and stand-up comedy, and written jokes for Jack Parr, Johnny Carson, and, yes, Jerry Lewis. This guy sounds obnoxious. Yeah. As the host of his own acclaimed talk shows, of his own acclaimed talk shows, he's conducted interviews with dozens of influential figures, including Woody Allen, Muhammad Ali, Orson Welles, John Lennon, Salvador Dali, Sir Lawrence Olivier,

Katharine Hepburn, Jimi Hendrix, and Alfred Hitchcock. He's also interviewed people near and dear to this very podcast, including John Carradine, Elsa Lanchester, Rod Serling, and of course, his longtime friend Groucho Marx. His wonderful book from a few years ago is called Brief Encounters and includes delightful anecdotes about everyone from Tony Curtis to Jonathan Winters. Please welcome back to the show all 235 episodes ago and a man who had the guts to ask Betty Davis how she lost her virginity. Our pal Dick Cavett. Mr. Cavett couldn't really be here tonight because he's a bit under the weather. But I'm his

housemaid and I've come from the old country and I'm just a jolly piece of I'm a person. Is that your Una O'Connor? It was Una O'Connor. It was supposed to be Hermione Gingold but I'm a little hoarse.

I couldn't get down to Hermione's. God, I haven't thought of her in long. I remember the time I asked her after I'd had several people who had been in London during the Blitz, and I said to her, were you bummed during the war? And she said, I was bummed during most of the war. That's a great line. Welcome back, Dick.

Yeah, thank you. Welcome back, Dick. Yeah, thank you. Now, you were telling us the one actor, one famous actor who no one imitates. No one ever has. And I asked the great Will Jordan. And it's Basil Rathbone. Basil Rathbone. And he said, yes, I can't really hook onto that.

Interesting. There's a resonance. You know it's Rathbone. He doesn't sound hook onto that. Interesting. There's a resonance. You know it's Rathbone. He doesn't sound like anyone else. He isn't an Englishman, oddly enough. He's from South Africa, as so many of us are. And I just, oh, shall I tell you something even more interesting? Sure.

This might change my life. Yes. I'm telling this to you exclusively. My wife, my beautiful darling wife, sent in one of those, you know, ancestor-type things. Oh, Ancestry.com. Right, the DNA test. And hers came back, and you can tell from looking at her

what it would inevitably be, English, French, Scottish, Welch, but nothing really exotic. And I had all of those, too, with a heavy ladling of German, because of my German relative, of course. And then she said, pointed toward me, don't you see that line with all the other countries And then she said, point it toward me. Don't you see that line with all the other countries and things that goes, South Sudan, the blackest part of the globe, South Sudan.

She has a percentage of Sudanese blood? Wow, that's interesting. I have no rhythm at all. Gil, you should do yours. You should do the ancestry. I want to. I did mine. You got to be careful with that.

Isn't that fascinating? Do you know, some woman told me, and I don't know if this is true, the company could be making this shit up that her husband went to it and they even were able to decipher that his chain goes back to Neanderthal

that sounds like how would they be able to go back they would have to have the bones there to scrape. It sounds like total horseshit. See, the Neanderthals knocked out the Anglo-Saxons. My history is a little screwed up.

I remember the late dopey Elsa Maxwell. She said once she was having a feud with Walter Winchell. Young folks, ask your parents whose names these are. The people who listen to this show just might know, Dick. Yeah, I know. Now, the Neanderthals were on the planet with the other type cavemen. I used to think it was a million years between. Whom did the Neanderthals eradicate?

There were the troglodytes. My wife would know. One of them. You keep meaning to have them over. What's the Walter Winchell story? Oh, she was feuding with Walter Winchell. I want to talk about the troglodytes. She was always feuding with Walter Winchell.

Okay. Elsa Maxwellchell. Okay. Elsa Maxwell. Yeah. Yeah. And she said, I finally thought of something, Jack. I want to call him on your show. It's a name and a word that I only just discovered. He's a Neanderthal man.

She was close. I was standing in the back of the studio. I wanted to run down. She was close. Now, is it true in a TV movie about Walter Winchell, they said he used to drink a big glass of water before he'd do his broadcast, so that would make him rush through the broadcast. Because he had to pee.

Yeah. Yes. I'd never heard that. That's fascinating. He used a full bladder to speed himself up. Yes. Yeah. Fascinating.

Because he'd have to finish up the show to run and pee. Is that how you got through the intro so quickly? Yeah. You broke your own speed record. It's really you got through the intro so quickly? Yeah. You broke your own speed record. It was really about me in that intro. All true. Get this for a name drop. Walter

took me to the Copacabana one night. Walter Winchell. He was in his latter years, obviously. He had a.38 in his cummerbund, like you just got a glimpse of, and a tuxedo on a weeknight to go to the Copacabana. Why was he packing heat? Nobody in the place had a tuxedo on.

And Tony Martin gurgled out some songs. Tony Martin. Between sips. Isn't Tony Martin inurgled out some songs. Tony Martin between sips. Isn't Tony Martin in the big store? He worked with the Marxists. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Tony Martin. And his opening act for a while in Vegas was Pat Cooper.

There you go. Yeah. Is that so? Yeah. And Pat Cooper commented on like they would see, you know, one handsome guy singing and one guy doing jokes. So they thought Pat Cooper must have been the Jew. And Tony Martin was Italian. Pat Cooper.

God, he certainly made me laugh. Cooper. God, he certainly made me laugh. Walter, all his life, professional life, had a two-way special police radio that the cops had given him because he was such a good friend of theirs, however many ways. And so I got into that car with him and we followed police calls. Everywhere was police calls. He'd head for it if there was a shooting, getting stuff for his column. Walter Winchell. Wow. Winchell. And one night we went, yeah, or do I mean Tony Martin?

No, it could be. So he actually witnessed this stuff. Oh, yeah. He said, this is stuff that I've seen with my own eyes. And he would go down to murder sites and fires and domestic violent places and stuff. And we went not to one of those, unfortunately, but a jail some part of town, branch of the jail. And I went inside and there were a couple of sleepy guys in the cells

and it felt so funny to be there and there were a couple of sleepy guys in the cells. It felt so funny to be there with a man with a.38 in his cummerbund and his tux. And we talked to some people down there a while, and I thought, this is so sad. He is utterly, totally vanished and forgotten. Walter Winchell. Winchell, yeah. Isn't the Burt Lancaster character in Sweet Smell of Success

based on... He was a hell of a tap dancer, which Mel Brooks says about Hitler, but he really was. Great vaudevillian. And as we were leaving the jail with nothing having happened and nothing he could use,

a guy says, a young guy says, Hey, Pop. Keep talking. Yeah, Hey, Pop, keep talking. Yeah, you, Pop, keep talking. Hi. Oh, I know who you are. And Walter came a little bit alive. The voice over, the voice on...

The Untouchables. The Untouchables. The Untouchables, yeah. And Walter came alive for a bit there. That's something that bothers you, that people don't know who these great stars are anymore. That people don't. I saw that in an interview with you.

It's concerning to you that people don't know the names Bob Hope, the names Groucho Marx, something we talk about on here a lot. For God's sake. I know. How's that possible? I got set back this year, about two years ago or maybe three. Hey, Mr. Cabot, young adult, it looked like.

Can you help me with who, let's see, who are the Marx Brothers and who was Johnny Carson? Oof. That hurts. And that hurt. It sure does. Of course, he'd been off for 25 years. But again, the aforementioned Mr. Woody Allen we talked about once, Cavett.

When we were young, we knew our Benchley, our Thurber, our Kaufman, our Marx brothers, our Fields, and they were way before us. Of course. Gilbert and I. To know anything ahead of your birth is out of fashion. I don't understand that at all. I spoke to some guy recently who had no idea who David Letterman was. Well, Johnny Carson, David Letterman. It's scary.

Don't mention it in any more talk show. Yeah, yes. Oh, boy. So Basil Rathbone was from where again? South Africa? Yeah, yeah. That's so weird. I guess from the British colony of South Africa.

I don't even came across that recently. So Basil Rathbone's an African-American. Like me. That's probably why we hit it off. We had a, I won't say it. We were talking before we turned the mics on about how it's an impossible impression to do Basil Rathbone. But then Gilbert, you offered that Nigel Bruce was easy to do. Yeah, that's an easy.

I heard that when they were doing the Sherlock Holmes radio show, Basil Rathbone, of course, played Sherlock Holmes on the radio. And sometimes Basil Rathbone would imitate Nigel Bruce. So Nigel Bruce wouldn't even have to show up. He could do his... Basil Rathbone would do a Nigel Bruce imitation. That's a great nugget of knowledge. Let's hear your Nigel Bruce skill.

Oh, yes, yes. Yes, Holmes. Yes, Holmes. Now, say something to me as Holmes, as much as you can. Yes. Oh, we found the fingerprints here. Oh, really, Holmes?

I do like Nigel Bruce's. Oh, really, Holmes? Oh, no. It never ceased to amaze me. But your Richard Liu remains the industry standard, Dick. That's my own. I haven't even seen anybody try to do Richard Liu. One guy tried embarrassingly.

Right on a street somewhere. But he was doing a Chinese. People stopping you in the street to do Richard Liu impressions. I must remind you. You are. And I said, that's a Chinese person. Now, don't scorn me because Richard Liu is Chinese, but, oh, I hate to do this to people,

the man who does the noir section of Turner Classic Movies is very good and obviously very smart and knowledgeable, the noir section of Turner Classic Movies. It's very good and obviously very smart and knowledgeable. But he knocked me in the stomach last week. Eddie Muller? I think it is. Eddie Muller. He said, I think he was talking about maybe The Purple Heart or something. And that wonderful Japanese actor, Richard Liu.

Now, first of all, your name couldn't be Liu if you're Japanese. And he isn't I do one line As Richard Lou Go for it And that's Ah, Krav Karya Oh, I'm killed

I don't trespass On your territory You know what It was about it? When I was trying to get the tenor, the range of his voice, it's a little, I think, strangely enough, Katharine Hepburn first, because my voice is lower than both hers and...

So I think of Katharburn, and instead of going... I must remind you, Captain, that a chain is no stronger than its weakest link. Beautiful. Still the best Richard Lew. In the Purple Heart, that fades. We kiss, Link. We kiss, Link.

It's funny because they used to get Chinese actors to be evil Japanese generals. Ironic as hell. While their families were being raped in Nanking, Uncle played a Japanese soldier in an American movie. And they would sometimes get like German Jewish actors as Nazis. Lots of them. Oh, yeah, sure. What about Walter Slezak with many Nazi officers? And there was this actor, I think, Oscar...

Carl Weiss. No, Oscar... Oscar Hom Himaki? Oscar Homolka? Not Homolka. Close. We know him. But it was like Himaki or something.

He was in two Twilight Zone episodes. Look that up. I want to know who it is. One of them was called Welcome to Death's Head. And the other one had to do with they're all frozen. And then, oh, Claude Akins is in it. Oh, yeah, I know the one you mean. And I think it was like Hamaki.

I'll look him up while you guys talk amongst yourselves. I don't know. There was an Oscar Homolka and an Oscar Hamaki? Yes. Something wrong with it. You'd think one of them would have changed it. Death's Head. Twilight Zone.

Because there he played a Nazi officer. And they said, like, in Casablanca, they had a lot of actors there who were Jews, who in the old country, in their country, were major stars, now playing little bit parts or just in Nazi uniforms. I think Oscar Carl Weiss was one of those. Oh, I got the guy you mean. Oscar Bereji? Bereji!

Bereji! Oh, my Uncle Bereji. Yeah! Do you know him? You know him, Dick? No, not a bit. Oh, if you saw him, you'd know him in a second. I can't forget seeing Oscar Homolka on 81st Street one day.

You did? Yeah, looking in an art gallery window with his beautiful wife, Joan Tetzel. What are we bringing, mister? Do you know this actor? Yes, I think so. I will tell you more distinctly when I get my glasses on. He did a lot of stuff. Oh, it's Schildkraut.

Yeah, Schildkraut, behind him. Sort of a Werner Klemperer type. I saw Schildkraut on the stage. Werner Klemperer, another Jew. Klemperer, and I saw Schildkraut do the Diary of Anna Frank. Or as you people say, Anne Frank.

Mm-hmm. But in the old country, we say... You know, there's an episode of The Odd Couple where Oscar's calling up some girl and he goes, yeah, hello, it's Oscar. And then there's a pause

and he goes, Oscar Madison, how many Oscars you know? And then he goes, you know Oscar Homolka? I hope Homolka heard that. Hey, wouldn't it be wonderful if from my having seen Homolka on stage twice,

I could suggest his voice for just a moment, a syllable or two. How would I do it? It was the play in which he said it was Japanese. They all played Japanese. Rod Steiger with... Rod Steiger was playing Japanese? Yeah.

That ain't a lot of tissue. Well, with the wig and... I don't know if he used the things for the eyes. Uh-huh. That really works, but... Let's see. What was that thing called? Anyway, Homolka was...

This was Edo, Japan, way back. And he was a wig maker and killed people to get their hair for wigs. Or... No, I tell a lie. He robbed graves and salvaged and harvested hair for the wigs. And somebody admonished him that it was a terrible thing to do. I'm going to try it now. Go ahead.

And he said, what does it matter? They were dead anyway. Could you hear it? Yes. Nicely done. All right, Gil, since you brought up Casablanca and Dick's into impressions, I'm going to put you on the spot again. I'm going to make you do Peter Lorre.

Dick, have you ever heard of Peter Lorre? The best ever. You Americans pronounce it Lorre. Yes, we Americans. It is Peter Lorre. Peter Lorre. Lorre? The best ever. You Americans pronounce it Lorre. Yes, we Americans. It is Peter Lorre. Peter Lorre. Lorre? Lorre.

Lorre. Is he Irish all of a sudden? He's from Glacomora. Give it to him, Gil. You despise me, don't you? If I gave any thought, I probably would. But all I'd do is provide documents to leave the country, travel visas. At a price, you got, eh? At a price. No, no.

You could be sued for that. Rick, you've got to save me! Rick, you've got to help me! That reminds me of one of my favorite Spike Jonze records. What? Great Spike Jonze records. Yeah. My Old Flame is a real song. And a nice tenor, a real straight singer in Spike Jonze troupe

named Frank Carlson, I think, trivia, sang it. And then in the middle of it, they would do another go-through of the lyrics, a new segment. And it was so good. It had to be Peter Lorre without Billing. I've never heard anyone say his name that way. Yeah. It's German as well. Is that the best Peter,

Peter, Laura you've ever heard? Yeah, it's, it's really good. Now it inspires me to try to do though. My old flame. My,

my, my old flame. I, I, I can't even think of her name. She would always something something and something something something. She had the something gaze and something. And then there was a wonderful punchline to that. Can you cue up,

can the guys there in the control room give us a... Hang on a second. I'm 12 years old. My old flame I can't even think of her name I'm 12 years old. A fascinating gaze. In their eyes. Some who took me up to the sky.

You're going to love it. But their attempts at love were only imitations of my old flame. This is a Spike Jonze version? Wow. Just wait. It's a big setup. This is a Spike Jonze version? Wow. Just wait. It's a big setup. But I'll never be the same Until I discover what became of my old flame. I can't even think of her name.

I'll have to look through my collection of human heads. But it's funny now and then how my thoughts go flashing back again to my old flame. Carl Grayson. Wow. My old flame. Carl Grayson. Wow. It's for kiddies. or elegant as my old flame. I've met so many who had fascinating ways, a fascinating gaze in their eye.

I saw this eye, so I removed the other eye, that eye that kept winking and blinking at other men. It was me. I was... It was... It was... Some who took me up to the skies. But their attempts at love were only imitations. Amazing.

And who was the person doing the Peter Lorre impression? I'm not sure. It wasn't George Rock. It's pretty good. I don't think it was Carl Grayson. I used to know all the Spike Challenge guys. What do you think, Gil?'t George Rock. It's pretty good. I don't think it was Carl Grayson. I used to know all the Spike Jonze guys. What do you think, Gil? Oh, yeah. It's pretty good. Yeah, very good.

There's some strange and wonderful stuff on the old Spike Jonze records. I used to imitate him. Spike Jonze? Yeah, and I had a thing in the basement with horns and all sorts of... When you were a kid? Yeah, yeah. I found something in my research that you did as a kid that I never knew about you.

You made... Spike Jonestown. And he came to Lincoln. Yeah. And he came to Grand Island, to Omaha. Last time I saw him in Omaha, he was getting dressed. And I stuck my head in the dressing room door and I said, are you coming to Lincoln again, Spike?

He said, we'll be over to see you one day. That's nice. That was nice. That's a good story. I heard a story. I heard a story that one time they brought Peter Lorre in to do a voiceover. And they said, okay, you know, start out by saying, hello, this is Peter Lorre. And he goes, hello, this is Peter Lorre. And he goes, hello, this is Peter Lorre. And they go, no, no, hello, this is Peter Lorre.

And he starts going, hello, this is Peter Lorre. He didn't pass the audition? Yeah, yeah. He did a terrible Peter Lorre imitation. I just think that's wonderful. He was a morphine addict, as was Bela Lugosi. Yeah, sure. A few other people. Well, because I heard, one time he was making a movie,

and I don't know, the director's name, Vincent something, and he said can we do that take again and Laurie said no brother Vince I only do crap once a day and they said well what about those Mr. Moto

pictures you did he goes that was different I was on drugs perfect yeah you did. He goes, that was different. I was on drugs. Perfect. Wow. Yeah. Jesus. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal

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Dick, speaking of your childhood, you also made monster masks. Oh. I guess I thought Gilbert would spark to this. I got hooked on makeup, character makeup, and I think it probably from seeing, what's his name, who did the Frankenstein? Jack Pierce. And there were some big names in makeup in those days,

characters especially. And it reminds me of, I did a tweet recently. I hate to admit it. How did that thing go? Oh, a friend of mine works with a place that makes those monster masks to scare kids at Halloween.

And they have the Frankenstein monster and the Wolfman and Dracula and Richard Nixon. All the ghouls. Yeah. And I said, they don't know this year. Oh, shit. I won't be able to think of his name.

He was kicked out of the Nixon administration, the alt-right man, you know, with the shaggy hair. Let's change it to not to the Nixon administration? I don't mean the Nixon administration. The current administration. The Trump White House. Oh, Steve Bannon. Steve Bannon. Right. So the last line

of my tweet was they're trying to decide what to design this year to scare the kiddies. It's a toss-up between Steve Bannon and a Catholic priest. Ouch. I didn't know whether to send it in or not, but I did. So goodbye forever, Mr. Cabot. Let me ask you about, there's a new Laurel and Hardy movie out, by the way.

Have you seen it? What are you saying? There's a movie out with John C. Reilly, the actor, and Steve Coogan, the British comic, about the life of Laurel and Hardy. And they play Stan and Ollie? Yes, indeed. Are they good? Leonard Moulton, I think, said he saw it. Leonard Moulton liked it.

Yeah. Has it played movie theaters? It's playing theatrically. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to see that. Yeah. I knew Stan Laurel.

I was going to just use that as a segue to that. Yeah. About meeting Stan in Santa Monica. Yeah. The Santa Monica. And the, it's an apartment house that sticks out a bit, and he had a big view window

in his modest living room and a desk, and while I was there, a phone rang, and he had to transact some business over the phone. I just, 10 feet away,

and it was so strange. I kept going this efficient nicely groomed intelligent well-read man is the one who did you know came down the chimney on top of his friend and the other man doing the dance. Their dances are fabulous. Oh, yeah, especially the one way out west. Yeah, yeah. But he was... How did you... Did you just look him up in the phone?

He was in the phone book, famously. I was a copy boy at time. At time, right. And I left there to go to Jack Parr because he paid more than my magazine. Paid $60 a week or whatever for copy. And I had to return, it's this real happenstance or coincidence almost, I had to return an envelope from one of the writers in the folder that they're all in, and it was

for someone named Latler, L-A-T-L-E-R. I thought, right next to that is L-A-U, Lawrence. No, just before Lawrence, something. Laurel Stan. I pulled it out,

and there was an article about how he was alive in Santa Monica. And so I remember best was, he was talking about Christmas. Uh-huh. And he said, you know, babe, and I never actually observed Christmas very much, babe, less than I did. But one day I took him a bottle of wonderful bourbon, and he hadn't taken me anything. It was on Christmas Day.

And he gave him the bottle of bourbon, and he, of course, thanked him, and put it down under the tree, and he said it was obvious from the moment I came in that he didn't have anything for me. But Babe said, bourbon is interesting, isn't it? And he went over to his drink tray, trolley, and got a very fine bottle of bourbon.

And Stan said, I think we're going to make history here. And Ollie held it out and said, and looked at it and realized it really was a fine bourbon. Second thoughts about giving it to him. And he said, it's just very hard to find this in Los Angeles and put it back down.

Oh, man. It was interesting, too, that you mentioned Chaplin to him. You were peeved, if I have this right, that he wasn't mentioned. Boy, you're a home worker. Yeah, and he said you'd read something where he wasn't included with Chaplin, and he said rather humbly that he didn't think he deserved to be mentioned with Chaplin. Does that ring a bell? You've got it right yes I'll now perform it for you can you put the light over me a little more sure thank you um get the green out of it uh yeah he uh Chaplin's

biography had come out oh there's the biography right here and it had the modest ego title of my autobiography redundant right so i read it and there was no mention of stan anywhere in it but there was a photo caption of the carno troop k-a-r-nO, that Stan and Chaplin had been in. And I said, why the hell couldn't the little fellow find room for you in his autobiography? And he said, well, to mention me in the same breath with Charlie's heresy, I just can't do it. How about that? How about that modesty? Now, was a lot of

the stuff that Charlie Chaplin and Stan Laurel did in movies just standard pieces from that English troupe? Some might have been. I really don't know. Somebody should treat that in a learned essay. I don't know, I've never, somebody should treat that in a learned essay. I don't know where their earliest stuff came from, but it must have been. Hardy was never

in that troupe, so. Yeah, well, he was American. Yeah, totally American. He said he had a vowel that was close to Groucho. Close to Groucho's. Well, you suddenly could have fooled me. Oh, that's right.

Interesting. And Hardy would say, that's not your baby. It's a little different baby. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. Is it true that Kramer asked him to be in It's a Mad, Mad World and he turned him down? Yeah, he said, I don't know if I brought the subject up or not.

He said, I don't want to appear anywhere. I don't want the kids to see what I look like. Oh, that's a shame. He could easily have. I heard Jerry Lewis, when he was putting together his production company, asked Stan Laurel. To be a technic? Yes.

Yeah, I heard that. And Johnny came into my office one day, and he said, did you see where, oh, no, I had had a letter from Stan. And I said, Johnny, Stan has been in the hospital for a few weeks. And he later came out and was fine. But Jerry Lewis came and visited him in the hospital. And it gave me quite a lift, he said. No, I tell a lie.

Can we buy this and tear it up and burn it? Johnny came and visited him in the hospital, and Stan wrote to me, and it gave me quite a lift. Then I said, and you know, Jerry Lewis has gone and visited him in the hospital too. And Johnny said, yeah, that must be a great lift for somebody who's not feeling well. Having that asshole come to you. And I laughed. Oh, boy.

I read one of your columns in the Times about Jerry, and you actually liked him. I mean, in spite of his worst characteristics. Yeah, there was a lot likable about him. And he was very good to, for me anyway, to work with. The first time I ever saw him in my life, where else would you see somebody? But he came up to the Tonight offices to host for a week in that interim where they used everybody in show business.

Between Parr and Carson? Yeah. Mortzall, Groucho, Peggy Lee, I don't know who all did it. The worst was Art Linkletter. Yes, I read that column too. I hope that doesn't sound

negative at all. I'll give you an example. The great David Lloyd, for the listeners, the same David Lloyd I was in college with, and he was Jack Parr's actually next-door neighbor in Bronxville. And he wanted to write, and he was a brilliant writer, and he wrote for Jack, and then he wrote for me, or he and I

then wrote for Jack. And he was... The late, great David Lloyd of Chuckles Bites the Dust fame. Richard Corliss in time always called him the great David Lloyd. And he went to Hollywood thinking, I've got all these kids, and I need money, and it's a risk.

And he only managed to write Mary Tyler Moore and Cheers and Taxi. Oh, yeah. And two or three others. A legend. The famous Chuckles Bites the Dust episode. Yeah. The clown. David and I had been warned about someone on the Tonight Show staff.

I had been warned about someone on the Tonight Show staff and it was it was Woody who gave me my warning he said Cavett you're going to meet tomorrow in your first day of work the worst person in the world I said Bob and Ray actually had a character at one point called the worst person in the world. The worst person in the world is out in his yard right now. Moved in their neighborhood. This was Jack's head writer. And you know, many stars and artists, great artists, have one unexplainable friend that everyone hates. Sometimes several.

How can he deal with it? He doesn't deserve it. I don't know if Arthur Rubinstein does, but a lot of comics do. And managers that drive their career as far down on the ground as they can, as with Jonathan Winters. their career as far down on the ground as they can, as with Jonathan Winters.

But this guy was a knifer, a gossip, a thwarter of other people's successes. I don't want to use his name, but his initials were Paul Keys. Oh, Paul Keys, of laughing. Yeah, Paul Keyes of laughing. Yeah, Paul Keyes. David got a neff of him one day and said, Paul, your parents owe the world a retraction. I don't know if he got it. He'd get a strained laugh. Now, what did Jonathan Winter's manager do?

Oh, I don't know. I just don't. I have no business saying that, really, because I didn't know them. But people say his manager took him into the ground. I mean, stupid ideas and stuff. Oh, let me tell you about Paul one thing. He came out of the men's room on the seventh floor of NBC when he rocked. Just as David and I came out of the men's room on the seventh floor of NBC when it hit 30 Rock, just as David and I came walking past.

And Paul waved and went off. And David said, what do you suppose Paul does in the bathroom, in the men's room? What do you suppose he does in there? And I said, that's where he puts his best stuff on paper. Ouch. He never let me forget that. I hate you, Kevin. I wish I'd said...

But it just, it came, you know. So he was that one guy. You love Jack, but he was that one friend that you couldn't, you just couldn't understand the relationship. Scab on the back of...

Now, did you ever see, you must have seen Jerry Lowe's horrible side. In fact, I didn't ever see him do anything nasty to anybody myself. But if you're looking for horrible sides, his would be right up

there among them. That awful interview he did where he wouldn't answer the guy. A while back. Somebody awful interview he did where he wouldn't answer the guy. A while back. Somebody wrote an article about how he went to entertain, took the invitation, at an old folks home.

And he said he came out and he was funny for a few minutes. And then he began to insult them. And then he did really dirty material some of them became sort of ill and left he was a son of a bitch

and certainly Woody wrote him a letter once way back having seen I've Forgotten What and just said I just want to tell you what a great great artist you really are. And at times he is, boy.

That interview with you that you did is on... Dick just mouthed a certain word. That interview you did with him, which is on YouTube, on the Cavett Show. You know, I've got to watch that. I've heard more people mention that. It brings out the best in him, I must say.

He was well-behaved. Yeah. And I probably did something that night and didn't get to see it. And I never have seen it. Well, you should watch it. I will take your word that I must. I'll say it twice. Also, you brought out the best in Hope in that interview.

Once he got past the shtick and the gags, you actually got a real interview. I'm happy for saying that because I mentioned to somebody, I think it was maybe Woody, I said, you know, if you could get Hope to talk, not just come on and do gags,

plug his special with eight jokes that he uses on everybody's show, I think there is a person there, but you never see it. Yeah, you managed to get to it. He swapped gags, and I just made it my business. And it upset him for a moment. I don't know, it's some normal thing like,

oh, I said, how did you get that scar? It doesn't really show much, but sitting here, I can see it on your upper lip. And he said, oh, yeah. And you thought, if there's going to be a gag, a fan. He said, well, I was protecting my dog. Some kids were throwing rocks at my dog. And I took out after them and got this scar.

Would you rather have a gag on that? And I said, no. It humanized him. Many people have said the only time it made them think he was a person. Yeah. I'm going to send both of those to you, Gilbert. Dick's interviews with Lewis, Jerry Lewis, and Bob Hope

are on YouTube. And you've never seen either one of them more likable. Damn, I want to see this. I also watched the Orson Welles interview, Dick, which was absolutely fascinating. And he was in such good spirits and self-deprecating. He made a joke about his weight. Yes. And another person that I think you brought the best out of.

We overpaid him. How so? He always broke. But be under the protection of some Italian countess or something. Live in their castle for a while and then move to his next place.

And we just paid him way over scale. In fact, I doubt that the statute of limitations has run out on it. I remember my producer saying, don't let anybody know about this. God. But he needed it to buy a dozen hot dogs with.

He was in good spirits on that show. He got a big ovation. Yeah, yeah. He just, he seemed happy to be there. So was he totally self-destructive, Welch? I don't know. Well, certainly, Wade alone, yeah, I guess, but

he would louse things up in his life that should have gone better for him and all, but he's way too complicated for amateur analysis, I think. God, what a guy. Which interview, and I've heard you

say the Harrison interview was one that kind of plagued you a little bit, the George Harrison interview, although it started rough and got better. I might have, yeah, that's what I've said. And I think so many people have said, did anyone tell you you were out of your mind to try to do 90 minutes with George Harrison? As I recall it, he got better after. He did. He did. And he showed a sense of humor because you said at one point, you know, John and Yoko were in that very chair. I got up. He got the hell out of the chair. I said Yoko was in the chair. Oh, Yoko. John, he wouldn't have jumped up. Yoko brushed himself. Right. He jumped out of the chair. I remember when George Harrison was on there as kind of a jab to John Lennon, who was like plugging a lot of stuff when

he was on the show, telling every album he had out and everything. And George Harrison, I don't know, it goes, oh, John forgot to plug this when he was on the show last. That's the one. Yeah. He plugged the Christmas song. Yeah. War is over.

That's right. Yeah. Yeah. But it got better. He warmed up to you. My favorite moment for John, puzzles viewers. As I recall, it's about 20 minutes into the show, and he suddenly said, Dick, what's your definition of love?

And it baffled people. That was one of David Frost's standards. I see. Every show he asked people that. And John despised Frost as much as I and the Beyond the Fringe people did. They hated his guts. Peter Cook put out a copy of his magazine, Private Eye. they hated his guts Peter Cook put out a copy of his magazine

Private Eye and there was a cover of Frosty walking sort of toward the camera at an angle and he had an envelope or something and it's as if he's hiding his

crotch with it or holding it to his crotch or holding his crotch with an envelope and the caption was David Frost or holding it to his crotch or holding his crotch with an envelope. And the caption was, David Frost holding one of the few pieces of material thought to be his own. Wow. Cold.

He stole stuff from everyone. The guts to steal from the fringe guys. Did he steal from those guys? All the time. All the time. All the time. Now, what did you, everyone always talked about John Lennon being like, you know, this great mind and a great thinker. And what do you think? He was a very intelligent guy, probably high IQ.

And it pains me to say that I had two long letters from him, which I, to put it more hopefully, haven't seen in years. But they were absolutely brilliantly punned and constructed in word games. And James Joycean. And he was a worshiper of Joyce, of course. And he was a fan of that British comedy. He was a fan of the goons and that's why they chose Lester in the

first place, to make Hard Day's Night. And who's the comic that oh, shit. Everybody knew him and nobody does here. Spike Milligan? Spike Milligan, thank you. He came on a show of mine in London and

there were Chelsea pensioners in the audience, 20 old men, veterans, from the Chelsea home for veterans. And Milligan got in among them and made them laugh hysterically. Funny man. You worried about them. They were so pleased with Milligan. On the Lennon subject, I just want to direct

our listeners to your book from 2014, Brief Encounters. Conversations, Magic Moments, and Assorted Hijinks. There's a sad

John Lennon column that you wrote in here for the Times. Is that in that one? It's in this book and you refer to the time that he was on the show with you

and he made a quip about growing older and looking back on himself. It's in this book, and you refer to the time that he was on the show with you, and he made a quip about growing older and looking back on himself one day on the Dick Cavett show. And it's... Jesus. I think I may have thought of that when I heard that he was dead. But I remember talking about it. And how long ago is that? When he was killed? Yeah. 1980.

Jesus. Yeah. 1980. Every time I go by the Dakota. Me too. I think maybe someday I won't think it. You know, like, don't think of the word El element when you walk into the cave or whatever the thing is. And always there are some foreign friends from abroad who come up to me and say,

can you tell us where is Strawberry Field? I like that impression. I remember I was on. They were Chinese. I was on Saturday Night Live in that horrible season when John Lennon was shot. And they used to have these really uncomfortable parties after the show. They'd go to a restaurant. They still do them.

Yeah. Tradition. Well, it was mostly pot parties. That's a tradition. Well, it was mostly pot parties. And after this one, it was like two days after John Lennon got shot. It was at a restaurant right across the street from the Dakota. Bad timing. Yeah.

Bad choice. He was killed on a Monday because I remember very vividly Howard Cosell. Howard Cosell interrupting Monday Night Football. Yeah. To make the announcement. December 8th. Howard Cosell interrupting Monday Night Football. Yeah. To make the announcement. December 8th. That's not where I heard about it. But I can't remember where I did hear about it.

But I can remember the feeling. Jesus Christ. What happened to those letters? Did you just misplace them? God, he knows. Not I. You have any? Did you?

It's Shakespeare. Shakespeare. I heard. Somebody told't. Did you? It's Shakespeare. I heard somebody told me Oliver Hardy was married to some Jewish woman at one point. I only know of one Hardy wife, but there may have been another. And that may be the one. And they split up. And they split up. And he said, according to this quote, she cast a Jewish hex on me.

He said that? Yeah. That's fascinating. And what was the result of that? I don't know. Oh, my God. I remember a thousand years ago following you around in a hotel. We had just done some show together.

I remember that, too. I don't remember what show we did. It may have been your show, for all I know. It might have been. I was following you around just imitating the old groucho. Uh-huh. And- My brother. Yeah.

Yeah. We were working as a Belusco Caesar, and Nunnally Johnson came in. And Nunnally Johnson used to like to smoke cigarettes. And, and, you know, because that was a very popular thing. A lot of people smoked cigarettes back then. And they would light them back then with a match. They would have a match, and they'd run it against the safest. And a flame would come off from the match and that's how they'd light their cigarettes.

Your antique Groucho should be in the Smithsonian. It's the Nunnally Johnson reference that puts it over the top. Yeah, yeah. Oh, God. And then I remember you, after a while you couldn't take anymore, and you were running away from me.

I needed oxygen. And I followed you in the elevator. I had that thing where you let out all the air in you, and you still can't take it in. Yeah. And then when you finally got to your room, I got on a whole phone, and you said hello. got on a whole phone, and you said hello. And I said, you know, it's Peter Benchley.

I probably thought it was possibly. Was he alive then? Yeah. Robert Benchley. Oh, Robert. Yeah. I don't think he was palling around when they were writing. Jaws.

Robert, Robert Bensley used to wear a green jacket. And this was a jacket that had a green color on it. So it was a green jacket because it was both a jacket and it was green. What would Groucho have thought of? Have you no mercy. What would Groucho have thought of Gilbert's impression, Dick? Would he have appreciated it? Well, I think he probably would enjoy it.

He loved talent. I remember once, the very first time, and maybe only time, that I mentioned Jonathan Winters to him. And like some idiot, I thought, I wonder if he knows who he is. And he just said, there's a giant talent. How about that?

I watched the episode of The Cabot Show where he proposed to Truman Capote. Yes, wasn't that... Gold. And the best part of that was, Truman Capote. Yes, wasn't that... Gold. And the best part of that was he had on the fabulous golf hat that he wore on my first great full evening Groucho show. And he had it on again that night. It had knitted little snowmen or something on it.

And they were holding little miniature golf clubs. You remember the hats? Yeah, the beret. And they'd have clown faces on golf balls. This had three knitted golf balls and two golfers. And he loved that hat. Anyway, on the same show, he reminded Truman that a nuptial was possible if he wanted it.

It was great. Or as everybody says that nuptial was possible if he wanted it. It was great. Or as everybody says, nuptial. And he repeated the offer and Truman said Gotcha. I could never marry a man that has three balls.

On his hat were the last three words but i don't think anybody heard them because three balls how's that got the 1969 i don't know if if you're able to do it on the spot if you could honor me in this way i try can you take the name gilbert gottfried and twist it into something. Oh, you're an anagram expert. Yeah, I usually can't when I'm assigned one. Oh. They come unbidden. Sometimes I can. You can take anyone's first and last name and turn it into a...

Well, it happens when I'm a little tired. I see. It started with the game per quacky, where you dump out lettered cubes and make bath, bathe, star, rats, arts, penguins. And that started it, and it got so I couldn't go anywhere without seeing anagrams or rearrangements. And I was with Marshall Brickman and he said,

are you sure you get, and I said, no, I'm looking out of the train at night from Mr. Donut. And Donut was burned out and neon red Mr. He said, do Mr. And I was in the vein.

And they said, mister, remits, merits, timers, miters, and two more. That's impressive. The nicest, classiest one was the East Hampton Marquis East Hampton movie theater with the letters you stick up and I don't know some kid probably

put up and he thought I gotta have one name from the movie so the Marquis read Lawrence of

Arabia starring Alec Guinness and I thought I just had O'Toole on the show and I thought I'll take a picture so had O'Toole on the show, and I thought, I'll take a picture

so that O'Toole will see, finally, who the star of Florence is. I never did it, but I told him about it. But then I saw Alec Guinness. A lot of the letters for genuine is there. Genuine laces. No, genuine clasps. Genuine clasps.

That's great. How did you know he could do that, Gilbert? How did you know that Dick had them? I know he always used to do that. He would twist names up. My name, by the way. That's a curious, odd bird. My name unscrambles as Dan Fake Porn Star.

Is it really? Yeah. A little bit of fun. Who got that jam? We just found that one day. Most importantly, you know, fuck the big movie stars and authors you've known. You had a chance to fuck Melanie Griffith. Do what?

I heard you had a chance to fuck Melanie Griffith. Where do you get this stuff? Yes. I think you even said this. You were at a party. Yeah. And Melanie Griffith was coming on to you. Or Andy Griffith.

That was later. We'll take either one. Yeah, we switched that night. At the risk of your image of me going all to hell, who is Melanie Gorfuss? No, Melanie Griffith, Tippi Hedren's daughter, the actress. Oh, Melanie Griffith. Yes, sir. These are also like earmuffs.

Uh-huh. I regret with a pyramid. Yes, sir. These are also like earmuffs. Uh-huh. I regret with a pyramid. Oh, Lord. Wait a minute. Pyramid is an anagram for army dip. Very good. Oh, excellent.

Very good. That's the way it happens. Oh, God. I got tired of being asked who was the worst guest you ever had and certainly who was the best and I decided to give Spiro Agnew the honor for a press

thing he's changing the subject I'd love to know but here's what they did to me I'd love to know. Here's what they did to me. What they did to me was they booked Spiro Agnew on the show. And they said he'll, you know, he seems kind of dry, but they said he's got some ideas of amusement.

And apparently he asked for, or someone with him asked for a blackboard or a whiteboard or something and they stuck up on it caricatures of spiro agnew which were current at the time he was new and he said he'll have interesting and amusing things to say about them Some bell warned me. So they wheel out the blackboard, eight caricatures, her block, and I don't know, maybe I don't know who all did it. David Levine, maybe? Levine, probably. I think even Hirschfeld

had one. So we got to the first one, and I said, here's the first one. And they focused on it. They said, yeah. I thought I always like to bail people out when they've blanked. And I said, and then this next one is rather amusing. He said, yeah, I think so. I reached for my gun. We got to the third one. And it was just hopeless, hopeless.

He would try to be, oh, I remember he said, maybe this will work. I noticed that her block does your eyes as just a slit like that, which is pretty much what his eyes were. He said, yes, that's the way he does it. So he was a riveting guest, Spiro Agnew. Yeah. My regret is that less than a minute after the limo drove him away, I thought, grow a penis. Oh, grow a penis. Oh, gee. that less than a minute after the limo drove him away,

I thought, grow a penis. Oh, grow a penis. Oh, jeez. Spiro Agnew. Wow. Are we still broadcasting? Yes. And Gore Vidal said, well, it could also be grow a spine,

but yours is better. See, I would think among the worst Cavett shows, you would consider the Gazzara Cassavetes debacle. I was just going to mention that one. Oh, shit. What was wrong with that? Peter Falk? They were all like, oh, God. They were bombed out of their skull.

That's immortalized somewhere on YouTube and somewhere else. And the one place it's listed is Dick Cavett's worst show ever. Was it? No, I had much worse. But there it is. Yeah. All I can remember is after they had, Cassavetes came on and then did a full body fall to the stage.

And somebody took one of their guy's shoes off and smelled his feet and real satire. And the audience began roaring with laughter. Then they began to pull back going, I saw one woman's face going, and she felt sorry for me. I said, well, this is why I never joined a fraternity. And that got a hand. I didn't think it would. Those guys, they were such... All three of them were bombed? Fall two?

Yeah. I don't know who was drunk-assed. Yeah. But it was... And afterwards, I went backstage, and their director was there, and he had them like three kids being reamed out for their behavior.

But you weren't... He said, you sold about 2,000 unbought tickets to every theater where this thing plays. I mean, you have just probably ruined any chances. And they were like this. Oh, God. Like little schoolboys. But you weren't live.

You had the option to not run it, to not air that episode. Oh, I wouldn't not run it. Okay. They deserved it. They were falling on top of each other, too. Like one would hit the ground, the other would fall on top of him. You can find it online. I don't remember who removed whose shoe and smelled his feet.

Oh, I also said, which amused me, but hardly anybody else. I just realized these same chairs, one week ago today, were occupied by Alfred Lunt, Lynn Fontaine, and Noel Coward. Nice. And a few people knew who they were. What was so terrible is, like, I respected all three of those actors. Yeah, me too. They're all good actors.

But to watch them like that, it was like, oh, my God, no, don't do this. Or if you have a relative you very much like, and one night he gets shit-faced drunk, and you're so embarrassed for him. But the director, the movie, I think, was Husbands. Sounds right. Yes. Yes, that sounds right. Yeah.

Yeah. I saw Falk and Cassavetes both in later days, and they were so sorry. Oh, they apologized. Oh, well, that's nice. Yeah. And what else did the director say to them? I'd love to hear.

Oh, he was just saying, if anybody had half a desire to see this movie, you killed it, and that sort of thing. I never saw anybody more expertly unsell tickets than you just did. Your show was event viewing for those reasons. I mean, Lily Tomlin storming off.

The funny thing is, I didn't know Lily stormed off. Right. I was watching that one. Yeah. As a kid. She left out of my vision and that was with Chad Everett. The immortal Chad Everett. He insulted her. And that was with Chad Everett. The immortal Chad Everett. From Medical Center. He insulted her.

And that other guy, what's his name, W.H. Auden? That's right. W.H. Auden. Did he say something like, my wife is my favorite animal? Yes. That's my favorite animal. Yes. And she bolted.

Before that, he had said to, referring to Whiston Hugh Auden, you don't understand we poets, he said at one point. And, oh, the classic, which broke up many distinguished people, was turning to this great poet and said, do you work from life or what? Boy, that's some eclectic booking, Chad Everett and W.H. Auden. I know. I don't know who did that. Auden refused to ever appear on television again, which is a shame.

And one of your classic moments is a health expert who died on your show. Rodale. You've got to be kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I was going to say, the gods having their usual sense of humor, picked of all the types of people and professions and arts could drop dead by the farm, purchase the acreage,

it would be a health expense. You have to be thankful for things like that because it makes the Cabot show so immortal. People are still talking about it. And how did you realize he was dead? I think the minute I looked at him the very first moment and thought it, I mean, I thought,

partly because he had been very funny in the half hour that was his half hour previously. And I had, pardon this, made a mental note to have him back. If not a physical note. And he was funny in his segment. And he offered me some asparagus boiled in urine. That's what did it.

I had the good taste to say who's. And part of the audience found that amusing. But boy, he... The sound, I'll never forget it. I've heard the death rattle. But boy, he... The sound, I'll never forget it. I've heard the death rattle in my life. This was not... I think it was mostly a nasal snorting.

Wow. I thought, this guy's dead. Dead, was he livelier than Agnew? Still? Funnier. Funnier. Certainly funnier. Now, you must have known Zeppo somewhat.

I never met Zeppo, but we spoke for an hour on the phone. Wow. And he was going to come on the show, and somebody said, get Zeppo. He is hilarious. And all you could think of is what a stiff he was in the movie. But I'm told he was really funny. I've got Marx Brothers stories

that nobody has. It'd be interesting to know if this was before or after Orson, but he said, I need $5,000. I said, well, you know, a law, we paid, maybe it was 340 then. 340 bucks, and he wanted five grand. When Jack did the show, it was 320.

The whole country knew that Tonight Show paid 320. Everybody joked about it. In fact, Peter Lora. Peter Lory. Jack said something to him. And he said, Jack, I don't have to hear things like that at these prices. Kind of flattened, Jack. Jack did a dirty trick one night

and I thought he was nasty in various ways and certainly the most interesting fascinating, neurotic weird and having that one quality that made him so unforgettable danger

Olivier has it in acting that made him so unforgettable. Danger. Olivier has it in acting. Something might got to happen. And Jack said, stop me if I told you this on the first show. Jackie Leonard was on. To those who don't know Jackie Leonard, he was a rather obese comedian,

and he was called affectionately Fat Jack. Fat Jack. Yeah. And he had a kind of a gruff delivery. My diet, I lost more than you are. I can't remember any of the others. But he had a million of them. But the way he worked was, you came on and he'd throw a line.

Why don't you put your glasses on backwards and walk into yourself? And you would have to say something. And then that gave him the next line. And the next line from his repertoire. Backstage, just before airtime, Jack said, Kid, when Fat Jack comes out, I'm not going to do anything.

I'll introduce him, of course, but you know how he works. And then you say something, and he works off that. And then you say something, and he works off that. I'm not going to answer him once. So Jack, poor Fat Jack, a lovely man, and came on and said, one of those times,

and then you could laugh. And then you kind of seemed to sense and came on and said, one of those times, and he could write, and laughed. And then he kind of seemed to sense something was up, but he couldn't quite say, you're supposed to talk back. And he got kind of desperate, and you felt sorry for him as well. Jack just sat there thinking, indeed,

but not even saying that at the end of a line and I hoped he would stop it and then came I think what he did when he got desperate and was actually perspiring was grab a fact out of life something just to

have something to say about something he didn't know what to do. And he said, Jack, you know, my wife is an acrobat. And Jack said, she'd have to be. Oh, God. And they couldn't go on. I told Jack that a couple years later. He had no memory of that.

Cliff Arquette came on drunk one night at Santa Claus. I told Jack that a couple years later. He had no memory of that. Cliff Arquette came on drunk one night as Santa Claus. Jack said, I first ever saw Santa in the bag, which is rather nice. Very good. Great line. He had some good ones. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. Hear that, quarter pounder fans? That silence is two friends enjoying the new creamy parmesan and bacon quarter pounder at McDonald's.

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To hear them in person, plan your trip at tnvacation.com. Tennessee sounds perfect. Speaking of Zeppo, we had Ron Delsner on the show a couple of months ago who produced Groucho at Carnegie. Oh yeah, yeah, right. I'd forgotten that. And you were

the MC, the opening... I just did the opening, yeah. I was there. I actually attended the opening I was there Gilbert was there as was Sandy Helberg who was sitting in the next booth was there he was there too

Woody and Diane Keaton they were actually they were on the aisle about four rows back and I kept it isn't always good to know someone's there that you know because you tend to go back. Somebody said to me lately, you know, you do

a banquet and you do something and you do a dinner somewhere and a thing at a school and invariably one aspect of the field fucks up. Audio-visual. Oh, they ran the wrong clip. There's a howl they can't get out of it.

The film comes on upside down and tears. Chris Porterfield said, I've got a collection of ten audio-visual fuck-ups. And I told that to an audience one night, and they seemed to understand what I was talking about. And then all the mics went out. I said, I didn't do it. But in the book is your Times column about that night

and how concerned you were when you got to Carnegie Hall. I nearly shat. I came out. Obviously, I came in from outside. And outside, there were nice kids who had gone to great pains to make up as Harpo. Make up as Harpo. Should I start all over?

No, no, just be closer to the mic. Good evening. I'll get hell from my engineer. Nice to have me back. Yeah, keep pulling me forward, as the actress said to the bishop. You showed up, everybody was dressed as Harpo outside. And there were kids dressed as Harpo and kids dressed as, nobody was Gomo, of course.

Gilbert was dressed as Gomo. There were quite a few Grouchos and some Chickos, a couple of Chickos. And some of them didn't even get in. It was so oversold, sold out. And they seemed content to just be outside the building where their hero was. They just waited around through the whole show, not hearing any of it.

They got to see Groucho come out and get in the car and they applauded and yelled and stuff. But when I got there, he looked like a dead man, and I didn't know what to do. It was echoes of the Blue Angel. Something awful is going to happen on that stage. And I asked asked I said would you like to cut the musical number

that you and Aaron do this sent Aaron off like a rocket I'll bet no that is not going to be cut it was her moment but I didn't think he was going to be able to take the steps to the mic

let alone the stage. But nothing mattered. They just were so happy that he was there. Did I say, by the way, they were supposed to pay me for that. I didn't even know that. And they never had. You never got paid? Never got paid.

We're breaking news. What can you tell us about Erin Fleming? Very little in case there are adults listening. Children, okay. No, but seriously. Folks, Erin was a highly ambitious, not unintelligent, pretty as she looked like Vivian Leigh at that time. I was about to do a vulgar joke. She looked like Vivian Leigh.

She was a Canadian. And she met Groucho at a time in his life when he needed somebody. And he would walk his dog in his neighborhood hoping someone would invite him in to dinner if he was so lonely. Think of how many people would have volunteered. Of course, and they'd known it was Groucho Marx.

That's right. Yeah. One day, the tour bus, those infernal tour buses that plagued the stars, stopped in front of Groucho's house. And there was a man doing the roses out front, fertilized the roses or something. And the jackass tour bus guy said,

I'm going to go out and talk to that man. We're not going to see Gr groucho but we can see someone who works for him and uh he took his mic out and the guy's down like this with a hat down and he says tell me sir um is your boss groucho a nice man and the man under the hat said he certainly is he lets me sleep with his wife. And the tour people, the Christian church ladies on the bus. It was all broadcast into the bus. I just love that.

But Erin was good and bad, like so many of us. She got to him at a time in his life when he was fading fast. Even those who hate her guts and are not far to seek, said she did do one thing. She got him to do the Carnegie Hall. Right. He was in bed all day. He was depressed.

Aaron was a mixed blessing for sure. Remember how fulsomely he thanked her on the Oscars? Sure. At one point you said in the article you considered spiriting him

or snatching him away and sneaking him out a side door. Yeah. And taking him to his hotel and putting him to bed. Saving him from the horror. And when he stepped through those curtains, it nearly tore the house apart. You introduced him and you said, I want to mention some other people who need to be mentioned. Otis B. Driftwood.

Oh. Rufus Firefly. Yeah. Quincy Adams Wagstaff. Five of five of them yeah yeah dr hackenbush yeah that must have totally of course what else would they do remember any of this skill oh yeah and and i remember too around that time afterwards he kind of got in trouble because maybe he was slipping a little and wasn't watching what he was saying yeah and times and he was saying like you know i did great at carnegie hall he goes george burns did it he didn't get like a quarter of the people

that i got and he was insulting these people that were lifelong friends of his. And I heard like a lot of people got pissed off at him. His first move on that stage was to stomp on a violin and say, I've had enough of Jack Benny. Yeah, he throws down the violin. He goes, I've had enough of Jack Benny, and so has this violin. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

He, James Agee, in his book on film, probably 50 years ago. I have it. Yeah, you gotta have it. It's a good one. And he talks about Groucho in there and says, I sometimes worry that a lot of people miss Groucho's weirdest curves.

And I thought about it. I know what he means. Some of them are in the movies, of course. And many of them are on what he always called the game show, the quiz show, on the quiz show. But I got one that I saved for humanity. I was driving Groucho and Harry Ruby in the back seat. Harry Ruby.

And my wife was in the seat. I could just hear them. And I kept thinking, oh God, I have to drive. And if I could switch on something that would... I just said one gem after another passed in the night

and out of recollection. But there was one that really got to me. We stopped at a light on sunset, 10 o'clock at night. I'm taking them both home for their dinner. And stopped for a light on sunset, sitting there quietly.

And Harry Ruby, and Groucho says, that building over there on the corner, that's where your son lives. And Harry Ruby said, no, it isn't Groucho. He said, yeah, that's your son's apartment building. He said, it isn't Groucho. My son lives way over beyond Wilshire. He said, your son doesn Groucho. My son lives on the way over beyond Wilshire.

He said, your son doesn't live in that building? He said, no, Groucho. Well, that's funny. I ran into him last week, and he never mentioned not living there. Perfect. You're not going to get that from Mary Manning. Did he know Dick? I mean, the Carnegie Hall, obviously, I mean, that must have, you know, encouraged him greatly.

But, I mean, did he understand, fully understand the impact of the Marx Brothers and their value, their lasting value? I hope so. You know, it's hard to say. He did a Tonight Show monologue one night when it was his week in the off-summer thing. It was such a thrill to write for him. And I got so I would do things that weren't jokes they were fun to write and you couldn't do them for anybody else in the business and one of them was

after a joke but enough of this bridled hilarity he loved that and he killed with it he loved words and wordplay so much and is it true i heard george s kaufman said the only person he would allow to ad lib or in one of his scripts was groucho that's true and he told that on the on the show one night and he got a little teary as he said it.

Yeah. I loved what you said in Marx Brothers in a nutshell in a documentary. You remember what you said toward the end of the documentary? No. You said you felt sorry for him because everybody else got to have a Groucho Marx and he was the only person that didn't get to have one. That's not bad. Pretty good. Pretty good. Pretty good.

Did I do it right? You did it right. Yeah. What's the expert? I've never asked you your favorite Dick Cavett guest, but Gilbert and I will ask you, what's the best Marx Brothers movie? Oh, that I don't know.

You know, I saw Groucho first on the quiz show, You Bet Your Life. And then I saw the movies. And they weren't always distributed in Nebraska. But I saw three at least, Night at the Opera, Duck Soup, and something else. My dad was in college in the Grand Island Baptist College.

So were most of our friends. And he said when the Marx Brothers first came to town, nobody was prepared for it. Nobody had ever seen or heard anything like it. Of course, it was Animal Cracker I know it was the one shot on the Astoria studio

Animal Crackers well Coconuts first Coconuts it was Coconuts Coconuts which certainly isn't their best movie but he said

it hit people and they were vulnerable to it in a way he had never seen an audience they just people literally I'll clean that up it's okay save that he said they they literally fell off their chairs Wow and I said yeah oh come on or, no, it would be like this.

They would be laughing, and they would just go like this, laughing and laughing, and get so far down, they fell off. And he said, it took you several days to get over it, because you were not inoculated for that kind of stuff.

Groucho was proud of... Which movie is it where they run downstairs on the ship and hide in the barrels? Monkey Business. Monkey Business. And we were watching that. And I said, I love that part with... You're getting the barrels and the guys are looking around and you say, never mind the barrels and go down.

They said, I thought of that. I thought of that. As if you say, you're kidding. You don't have enough talent to have said that. When did you close up? Oh, God. They keep pulling my mic away. Oh, God.

pulling my mic away. Tonight, Autolite and its three thousand dealers present Miss Agnes Moorhead in Sorry, Wrong Number. I gave myself goose pimples.

Wasn't Agnes Moorhead one of the actors who came to Nebraska? Yes, she was. Your knowledge is just unbelievable. Oh, I do my homework, Dick. Yeah, funny to think, in Lincoln, Nebraska, I, who was a celebrity worshiper and wanted to get into show business, in Lincoln, I met Charles Lawton and Cedric Hardwick and Agnes Moorhead and Charles Boyer and Spike Jones and Henry Fonda.

And Johnny Carson. And Johnny Carson. A young Johnny Carson. Bob Hope came to town. And my friend Lyle Burke and I said, this is a trick, you know. They say September 14th, but when you get there, it's a film. And people had had that experience. And I couldn't see it's a film in the ad, but it didn't say it wasn't.

And he came. And we went to it, and there was a magician, and then there was a dove, a trained dove act, and then there was an acrobatic dancer, and somebody else and a dog juggled, and the curtains closed. And I said, God damn. I said, how can they get away with that?

I was thinking we were going to see Bob Hope in the flesh. Nothing between us but air, and now shit. And then some music played, and people started going back in. And we didn't know that intermission wasn't the end of the show. Oh. And we went back in. And the voice of the blacks went down, and the voice went... Now, the star of our show,

Bob Hope! Da-da-da-da-da. Thanks for the memory. God, there he is as he came on stage. I can still get goosebumps. You're still getting goosebumps. Yeah.

He brushed Marilyn Maxwell's ass once on stage. She may have been tired of it. I don't know why, but she just said, Bob, you're not supposed to do that. And he said, read your contract. But afterwards, I ran around to the stage door. About 10 steps. Hope came tripping down the ten steps to get into the Cadillac with Marilyn and somebody else.

And I said, fine show, Bob. I was ninth grade. Eighth grade, maybe. And he said, thanks, son. And it just went through me. And I told all my friends the next day how I chatted with Bob Hope the night before. That's what you call one of your looking through the looking glass moments. Yeah, and it goes on because now how many years later,

coming back from a commercial, you can see me standing up looking into my own wings to see if Bob Hope is actually there because he wasn't going to be at the beginning. Wonderful. And there he was. Wonderful. He came out and said, hey, I'd like to see you working. And I said, do you remember when we first met? He said, no. I said, you came to Lincoln and you were coming down some stairs and i said fine show bob

and you said thanks son and he said was that you 17 years later the best part of that is he came he had been in lincoln before and i never believed it but he liked to play golf on their Hillcrest Country Club. Lincoln had a good golf club. So he'd come to town and round up five Republicans and play golf. And a kid

I hated saw him on the golf links and said, you know, he's pretty funny. I said, yeah, I know. You saw him, right? Yeah. In this town. Yeah. And he had on a flowing Hawaiian shirt and a snotty little kid,

Ralph Lingus, said, hey Bob, your slip is showing. Hope said, so is your father's. And I didn't get it for about a year. You know, I don't know why this. I was thinking of this when you were talking about the Marx Brothers and their reaction. But I read like, well, Roger Ebert said his father would take him to Marx Brothers movies because he loved them. Good parent.

And he said when there was a big laugh, his father would look at him and kind of wink like, you see what they got away with there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love that. I wonder what are the most got away with there. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I love that. I wonder, what are the most got away with lines? Oh, there are at least two people in public. I'm alleged to be a friend

of one, so this time I won't mention. Who say and say again three weeks later on their show and again. Oh, yeah, that great Groucho line about who are you going to believe, me or your lion eyes.

They messed the line up. It's an Art Linkletter moment. I didn't finish my Linkletter. Go ahead. We're going to wrap it up, but go ahead. Okay. We're depressed and down in the mouth and writing for Art Linkletter, all synonyms.

And it was just hopeless. And David Lloyd, the great David Lloyd, handed in... Tonight's show is dedicated, in a way, to great comedy teams. You know, comedy teams like Burns and Allen, Abbott and Costello, Laurel and Hardy, Jackie Leonard. And Art managed to inject morphine into it

somehow with his inimitable delivery. And he didn't get a laugh. It was... I can't even... No one could imitate how badly he did it. So it came out... I don't know. And Jackie

Leonard, who's so fat that he's a one-man comedy team all by himself. Explaining the joke. Fantastic. All by himself, just sent us through the wall. That's one of my favorite columns of yours. Because it's about comedy writing.

Art link lettering. Yeah, yeah. For years after, we said, I hope I'm not Art link lettering. Yeah, yeah. For years after, we said, I hope I'm not art link lettering this joke, but just as a convenient phrase for spelling it out, art link lettering it. So I just want to plug too, Dick. Our mutual friend Robert Bader

helped you basically compile these shows and organize them, and they've been recently donated to the Library of Congress. Yeah. Every episode? Bader the Magnificent. We had him here. Yeah, I know. And you know what happened? After his appearance here, his book sales

took a terrific upswing. That's why I'm going to plug yours again. Yeah. Yeah. And can you believe that book? Oh, God. That's scary. He basically tracked down every single live date they ever played.

Yeah, he specialized in their vaudeville years because nobody has. Yes. It's an incredible piece of work and research. He went to Red Oak, Iowa to find the... Every playbill, everything. I think he told me when he was venturing into Nebraska, as he called me,

and he didn't know if there'd ever been a Jew in Nebraska. He was freaking new. But when the crash came, you know, Groucho was killed by it. Yeah. He was just wiped out. They all were, I guess.

And he was so depressed, and they kept hoping he'd pull out of it. Maybe he wouldn't. There were suicides, of course. Sure. Not in their family, luckily. But, jeez. Groucho said in the park the pigeons are feeding the people.

Not even necessarily meaning it as a joke. Yeah, I know he took it very hard. They said Groucho never quite got over depression. Yeah, that did something to him? Isn't there a piece in the Marx Brothers in a nutshell where he always carried an orange around in his pocket? Oh, yeah. Because he was afraid if there was another crash, if he suddenly ran out of money, he would have... Am I getting this right?

I think so. That he would always have something to eat? It sounds authentic to me. Did I make this up or dream this? Well, if you did, you should make up some more. We want to plug Robert's book since we're talking about it. Four of the Three Musketeers. A wild ride

and just an exhaustively researched book. I called that book, and there's Robert Bader in the audience. He's read this wonderful book. Five of the... Four of the... I saw him gnashing his teeth. I finally got it right. And we'll plug Steve Stolier's wonderful book about Groucho, too.

Raised Eyebrows. Raised Eyebrows. For our Marx Brothers listeners who want to read great stuff about Groucho. Well, that has as much about Aaron as it does about Groucho. And a lot about Aaron. Yes, indeed. Aaron wound up a homeless woman. I heard at one point asking after her years ago, where is she now?

Has she gone back to Canada? They said, no, she sort of goes into stores and gets day-old rolls and things to eat. A bag woman almost. Yeah, it's a very sad ending. Somehow she got a hold of a gun and that was it. Yeah, boy. Sad person. She's in a Woody Allen movie, though, so she's immortalized.

Oh, everything you want to know about sex. That's right. That's right. I got along with Erin and felt guilty about it some of the time. But she would say, I don't know how I can go on. And then she'd do something good for him and feel better. Like you said, the good and the bad. We have to thank you personally, Dick.

And Gilbert knows why. How are you going to do that? Because this show was on live support after one episode. Have we started? No, no, no. We originally interviewed Erwin Corey.

He was our first guest. He was 130, God bless him, but the material, what we recorded wound up being unusable. Gilbert, Dara, and I walked to a pizzeria.

Or as I call it, a pizza store. You want to take it over from here? Yeah. And I said, before I took a bite out of the slice, I said, all right, well, you know, we tried it, the podcast. We gave it a shot. And it was basically over before it began. And we needed something.

And I said, I looked at Dara and I said, you know what will solve this problem? Call Dick Cavett. And you did the first show. Yeah. And we had a show. I replaced Erwin Corwin. Well, you were matter of speaking.

You were older than him. You were the maiden voyage. You know, he was a communist. He was. It was like Erwin Corey, when he was at his peak, he was like crazy and mixed up. Yeah. But it was crazy and mixed up funny. And now it was just crazy and mixed up. But. But it was crazy and mixed up funny. And now it was just crazy and mixed up. But he lopped off the funny.

Yeah. Well, bless his heart, he did it for us. But he was not in fine condition. I used to see him as a kid on This Is Show Business. On E-Mail. Sullivan and everything. Yeah. Irwin Corey.

So the Dick Cavett episode was the first official episode of this show, and it made us realize that we had a show. You mean I don't have to pay for this bottle of wine? That's it. No. That's comp, buddy. That's comp. So I'm going to tell people, too, to get your book,

which is Brief Encounters, Wonderful Stories. You even tell the Walter Matthau-Tony Curtis story, which we won't make you tell. Oh, yes. That's a corker. That's a good one. That's a good one. But we will make you tell the Benny elevator story

as we go out. Tonight? Yeah. You okay with that? Sure. Or if you'd rather tell the your choice. The what? The Mathow Tony Curtis story or the Benny story? Benny story. The Melanie Griffith one you could tell, too, if you want.

I'm leaving right now. I don't know where you got this, Gilbert. I was in hog heaven getting a job with Jack Parr because I had ever missed a Parr show, I don't think. And there I was in the Parr office, and here were the familiar people. The old writers would go home, and I stayed for taping, so I was in Sid Caesar's dressing room

and Jack Benny's and Bob Hope's. Bless your heart. Carmilla Quinn and, you know, just about everybody. On this night, funnily enough, I don't remember if it was with Jack or Johnny, but it doesn't matter. The Tonight Show finished. People were going out looking for exits who came through the doors they weren't supposed to.

And some of those people who did that saw an elevator door that was being held open by a page, and they got in, and that was supposed to be the star elevator. They were supposed to get in there, the six others. But they got in there, and Jack, smartly dressed in his belted Burberry, said to me, are you going home? And I said, yeah. And he got in that elevator, so I got in it with him.

I think it was seven comments were made to him. To Jack Benny. To Jack Benny by the hoi polloi in the elevator. Are you still cheap, Mr. Benny? He'd smile. Such a lovely, nicest man in show business ever. You know, sort of the opposite of Danny Kaye. So, I mean, that's not a real name.

I just did that. Somebody else said, would you still drive the Maxwell? And you can see him kind of, God, please let this elevator get to the bottom. You got this guy living in a box or something under your house guarding your money? You don't pay Rochester. They got them all in.

You can only tell this to an audience of a certain age we get to the bottom they rush out to tell their friends and we step out and I say Mr. Benny do you get a little tired after all these years? Same old ones.

And this lovely man put his hand on my shoulder. And he said, you know, kid, sometimes you just want to tell them to go fuck themselves. Oh. I left all the way home. I never get tired of hearing it. That's the voice that came out of our radio. Oh, man.

Dick, will you come back sometime again and play with us some more? Yeah, how about 10 minutes from now? Fine. There's so much, of course. Remind me to tell you then. That we didn't get to. Yeah. Not only the greatest coincidence, and they're kind of spooky, in my life, but just about anybody's.

Okay. Have me back for that. Okay. Okay. Well, there's plenty to ask you about. But we'll plug the shows. People can go to, if you're lucky enough to be visiting the Library of Congress, they can see all of them. Yeah, that's right.

I guess that's an honor, isn't it? Yes, it is. But in the meantime, they can go to YouTube, and I'm going to tell them to watch the Orson Welles interview, the George Harrison interview, the wonderful. interview, the George Harrison interview, the wonderful you know what's great is the one you did with Frank Capra, Robert Altman Bogdanovich and Mel Brooks. Movie makers.

A real treat. A real treat. That's where Capra talked about what a bomb his great movie of Shangri-La was. Yeah, you loved Lost Horizon. I asked him about it. Yeah, and the guy who had come out of the toilet. Yeah.

Capra had gone in to pee or whatever. This guy comes out and says, you see that Charlie Chan thing they're showing in there? Just what he needed. Find those episodes because they're terrific. And come back and we'll ask you a lot more. Nothing easier. Hey, my friend.

Frank and I have often referred to you as the self-interviewing guest. Well, don't stay home next time. Joy Behar said to me today, you have Cavett tonight? I said, yeah. She said, he'll be easy. Yeah, yeah. I wonder why that is. I am easy, I guess.

You're the automatic interview. Don't feel confident that I'm going to be on my way to the thing. You still have those anxiety dreams about showing up and you don't have the cards, you don't know your lines. God, I had a killer about five days ago. Still have them, huh? I was out somewhere in the country, and we were doing a musical of Cyrano, which we had done at Yale. And I got there, and I got into the wings, and I realized, Jesus, I haven't looked at this script in 25, 40 years. I don't know one of my lines. And my scene's coming up.

Olivier, I asked him if he got that dream. The classic actor's dream. Yeah. Where you try to grab a script and maybe learn a couple lines. And oh, oh, and you're sweating and he said oh dear boy i i come make my entrance and i get to the door and i realize i don't know where i am in what play and then i open the door and i think perhaps it'll come to me and then there are two more doors and I think, perhaps it'll come to me, and then there are two more doors. And I take one, and it's not it, and I take another one, and it's not it,

and I can hear the actors out there on stage doing the scene and ad-libbing, and I can't get to them, and Joan says I wake up screaming. Wow. Wow. Oh, you're in good company there. How could he not be sure? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Wow. Oh, you're in good company there. How could he not be sure? Well, this has been Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. Now, Gilbert Gottfried is a double literate name, like Francis Farmer or B. Benatar.

I'm not going to laugh. Or Charlie Chase. I'm going to laugh, don't ask. I'm here with his co-host, Frank Santopadre, which is like a Spanish word for father. You know, in some families they have both the father and the mother. And the father is the male member

of the family. And the mother, who actually gives birth, she gives birth to the child. If they have, if they are gives birth. She gives birth to the to the child. If they have, if they are lucky enough to have a child.

Dick is melting into a I'm not letting you a puddle. We've had Dick is a way you talk to someone named Richard. If someone's name is Richard, you call them dick.

You're going to make me joke. Or if you don't like that person, you refer to them as a dick. But if you like the person, then it's a short for Richard. If you don't like them, you go, you know, like he was a real dick. Thank you, Dick. Thank you. His head is down on the table. Now, that's not nice.

Oh, Lydia, oh, Lydia, say, have you met Lydia? Oh, Lydia, the champ of them all. She once swept an admiral clear off his feet. The ships on her hips made his heart skip a beat. And now the old boy's in command of the fleet. For he went and married Lydia. I said, Lydia. He said, Lydia. I said, He said Lydia I said Lydia

He said Lydia I'll see you next time. Sarah Gottfried and Frank Santa Padre with audio production by Frank Verderosa. Web and social media is handled by Mike McPadden, Greg Pair and John Bradley Seals. Special audio contributions by John Beach. Special thanks to John Fodiatis, John Murray and Paul Rayburn.