Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - 75. Ron Chaney and Janet Ann Gallow

Episode Date: November 2, 2015

The Halloween celebration continues with the grandson of horror icon Lon Chaney Jr., actor and makeup artist Ron Chaney, who shares warm memories of his famous granddad and recounts the silent film career of his legendary great-grandfather, "Man of a Thousand Faces" Lon Chaney. Later, Gilbert realizes a lifelong dream when he speaks with former child actress Janet Ann Gallow, who recalls working with both Chaney Jr. and Bela Lugosi in 1942's "Ghost of Frankenstein." PLUS: "The Hunchback of Notre Dame"! The return of Maria Ouspenskaya! Gilbert does Ygor! Janet slaps Lou Costello! And Lon Chaney inspires Groucho! MeUndies is offering you TWENTY PERCENT off your first order at http://meundies.com/gilbert. That’s a special offer just for GGACP listeners. Make sure you go to http://meundies.com/gilbert to get twenty percent off your first order of underwear in tons of styles and colors. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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of Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. Our special Halloween episode. This week, we speak to the grandson of one of my former co-stars, Blanchini Jr. We speak to his grandson, Blanchini. Then I talked to a former child actress who shared a screen with yours truly in Ghost of Frankenstein, Janet Ann Gallo. Don't miss it. Listen to them. Children of the night. What music they make. for each amazing, colossal podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Our guest this week is a personal thrill for me.

He's an actor, author, makeup artist, public speaker, also happens to be the grandson of my favorite actor, the great Lon Chaney Jr., the only actor to play all four of Universal's classic monsters, Frankenstein, Dracula, the Mummy, and of course, the Wolfman. He's also the great grandson of the legendary man of a thousand faces, silent screen icon Lon Chaney. Please welcome to the show, Ron Chaney. Well, happy Halloween, everybody. Great to be here. And I should say to all the politically correct people on the Internet that when I'm introducing Lon Chaney's grandson, I'm calling him Ron Chaney. That's his name, Ron Chaney.

I'm not making fun of the Japanese. I'm not making fun of the Japanese. I'm not going Oh, he's actor Ron Chaney. No, that's not what I'm doing. Because you never do that kind of politically sensitive material. Anyone who's seen your

act can attest. It didn't have anything to do with the two Chinese characters he played now, did it? No. That's right. That's right. That's right. He did. Okay. Now.

Welcome to the show, Ron. Thanks for doing it. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. So, okay. Now, I remember when I was a kid, they used to show that James Cagney movie that was a biography of Lon Chaney, that it was called Man of a Thousand Faces. Now, how much of that was actually true?

Well, there was quite a bit of it was true, but a lot of it was sensationalized. During that era of time, they changed the story somewhat. during that era of time. They changed the story somewhat. So, you know, a lot of it was true, but a lot of it was certainly not sequential or chronologically in order. And I think probably one of the biggest flaws in it was, you know, Dorothy Malone being a beautiful woman, you didn't see her as a 15-year-old. So, you know, the mindset of a 15-year-old and somebody, you know, beautiful in their

20s, you know, late 20s, gives an all too different take on the story. Oh, so she was 15? My great-grandmother, Cleva, was 15 years old when she first, you know, went on the road with Lon. 15, 16 years old, yes. Yeah, because Dorothy Malone was definitely fully grown in that movie. And how does your granddad feel about being portrayed by Roger Smith? Who looked nothing like him.

Yeah. Well, I think the funny thing is, well, not necessarily funny, but my grandfather was very integral in the making of that film. In fact, I have the treatment that was written here with Ralph Will Wright, but my grandfather was very integral in the making of that film. In fact, I have the treatment that was written here with Ralph Will Wright, and he was signed a deal with Universal to do that. And, you know, they went through the whole process, and he was on. He was interviewed, obviously, as part of this development of the treatment.

And he brought in his aunt and his uncles and the set musicians and friends of the family to make sure the story was pretty good. And then it went through afterwards, I think about five different rewrites, until the final product, and that was what was released. And my great-grandmother was very disappointed because she also was interviewed with it. In fact, I think at one of the early screenings, she just pretty much got up and slammed out the door. So she didn't care much for the way that the story went. But, you know, a lot of the points in it were true for sure,

and a lot were not. And with Lon Chaney, oh, well, and I realize both Lon Chaney and Lon Chaney Jr., Lon Chaney. Oh, well, and I realize both Lon Chaney and Lon Chaney Jr. Lon Chaney, I saw Lon Chaney walking with the queen doing the werewolf of London, and I saw Lon Chaney Jr. walk both Warren and Zeevon. My old neighbor, Mr. Zeevon. Oh, you used to listen to a lot of Warren Zeevon. Oh, yeah. I was telling Gilbert we were neighbors in West Hollywood. He was an interesting man.

Oh, is that right? Yeah. Now, Lon Chaney Sr., the great silent screen comic who dealt with the macabre, he didn't take acting lessons. How did he learn his craft? How did he learn how to act? I think you have to go back to his childhood with both of his parents being deaf and mute.

So he really didn't even speak until he was four years old. He didn't learn to even start to talk because of that. But he was very close with his parents, and at a very young age, he had to drop out of school because his mother was stricken with rheumatism, like inflammatory rheumatism. So her only method of being able to communicate via sign language was her hands. She was bedridden for about three years. So he had to drop out of school to take care of her.

The older brother got a job. The father worked. The younger siblings were below, so he had to take care of his mother and them. And he basically became a little human newspaper when he would go to his father's barber shop and listen to all the town's news and go back and make up little costumes and little skits that he would act out for his mother. And they had this extreme bond just using their eyes that he learned to communicate and act out the little things that were going on around town.

So probably that was his first bit of acting. And I think everything in his career had something to do with the sign language and that early foundation of expression and pantomime and all those things and gestures, things of that nature. actors and comedians, Gene Weiler, Jan Murray, and I think Jackie Gleason, too. Their mothers died when they were young. And each one of them, when the mother would be sick in bed, they'd go out to a movie

or a vaudeville show and then come back and act it out for their mother. Oh, wow, I never heard that. I didn't know that. Wow, okay, well, he was doing that in, let's see, 1893, you know, about that time. And I saw, both Frank and I watched it, Lon Chaney Jr.

was showing some of the signs that deaf people use. And then they showed scenes from Cheney Sr.'s movies. Oh, it's the clip from U.S. for it. Oh, yes. That you must know, Ron. And, in fact, it's available on YouTube. It's fascinating to watch your grandfather interpreting his father's style and his work. Oh, absolutely.

He's very affectionate about it, too. First you see Lon Chaney Jr. showing, like, this is the way to say hate, that deaf people say hate. This is the way they say love. This is the way they say fear. And in the Hunchback of Notre Dame, Lon Chaney is doing all of those deaf people moves as the character. Absolutely. You can see abbreviated versions throughout his career.

Even in The Phantom, you just see subtle gestures that tend to somebody that would be deaf that could read that type of thing. It would make sense to them. So there was always something that he would add, whether it was via that sign or expression or something. He was certainly a master of it and unique. And he met his wife. She was a dancer. Right. She was a singer.

Well, I think at first. Oh, really? She was a singer well i think at first oh really she was a struck or i saw something that said she was uh she wanted to be a dancer but she wasn't that good and lon cheney taught her how to dance well he was a choreographer and uh my that was my great-grandmother cleva and uh she was the 15 year old that got the audition you know call and she had been getting trained you know for singing she always you know her mother had given her some schooling and she'd had some background going to different areas for for singing so when the troupe came along and played in Oklahoma, you know, they would always do advances, the bigger audience, some of the townspeople,

you know, be in the play, then all their family comes. I think we still all do that today. But nonetheless, she got that audition, and then she came in, and, well, you're too young, you can't play, you know, you're not even 16 years old yet, you know, and she, so let me, you know, okay, let me hear you sing, so my great grandmother could, she could really sing, she could hit the high notes, she could break glass, let's put it that way, so she was just like this, you know, diamond in the rough that they discovered. And then she wanted to go on the road, and her mother wouldn't let her. And she said, as soon as I'm of age, I'll run away.

She was very headstrong, always was. And, you know, they had met. Ron was working with the company at that time that was doing Delmar Gardens in Oklahoma. So there you go. That's how they met. And then when they went to go on the road, you know, he was taking care of her and they just kind of became sweethearts as they were traveling around in 1905, 1906, Oklahoma territory and throughout, you know, different parts of the nation via train.

And he would travel like these acting troops would travel, and I heard like, you know, they would already be struggling for money with what little a performance made, and sometimes the shows would run out of money, and they'd be stranded in the middle of nowhere. That's absolutely true, and you know, they weren't vaudeville necessarily, they weren't vaudeville necessarily. They weren't vaudeville, but they were light operas, comedic operas. And in 1905, going in Oklahoma and Arkansas and all the way down to Florida, they went up into Canada and went both

ways. And very often they would certainly go broke on the road, so they got stranded so often. Whenever they would make money, it would be great for a little while, and then they'd lose it. They just did nothing but struggle. It wasn't going anywhere, and that's when they finally decided to move to California. He followed his brother out here, who had relocated in Los Angeles and was a stage carpenter, you know, at one of the theaters there. And Cheney and his wife, eventually they started, their marriage started to face rough times. Very true. A lot of jealousy because actually Cleva became the bigger star. She was more of a second comedian. She was more of a star and a feature as she went along. So her popularity was, you know, pretty big. And then she, when they got to California, uh, they played with Fatty Arbuckle and that group there. I think they're art men, yes.

They all were on stage together back in those derby days in L.A. To tell our audience, this is Fatty Arbuckle, whose career was destroyed by a whole sex scandal. He was found innocent. Yeah, after being tried, I think, three times. Yeah. Well, so which leads to some of the long story, too, of what a scandal could do. Oh, yeah. And even way back in those days, because it did, it ruined his career, you know, for sure. He had to work under different names, you know, fast kids.

I heard he worked under the name Will Be Good. Oh, did he? Yeah. Which scandal are you referring to, Ron? Was it his wife's attempted I? Yeah. Which scandal are you referring to, Ron? Was it his wife's attempted suicide? Yeah, I mean, eventually that's what kind of nixed his stage career, because he never had attention to going into films. And the way she did it...

Yeah, well, a lot of the Man of a Thousand Faces, there was something to it, but not all of the story was there. I have my great-grandmother's journal that she wrote. And after he passed away, it was a response to a magazine that was published by Liberty Magazine. And she was quite irate with the way that the story went, so she wrote her version of it. So I have that, and then I have a lot of the notes from his second wife. So I've been working on a book a number of years, kind of trying to be the blueprint of a new film on Cheney.

Because according to story, at least, Cheney was on stage, and she appeared in the wings and drank, I think it's like, curide of mercury. And as a suicide, like she was going to kill herself. It's a majestic theater, right? Yeah. In Los Angeles? Yeah. Yeah, I made the news, you know.

She was rushed to the hospital. And she actually had just previously played her own gig down the street there. And previous to going there. And it had some fighting going on. There's a little more backstory than the way that it was presented. It was pretty, there was a lot more drama going on than they did in film. Other things were going on, which led to this event. And obviously it was basically the ending. It took a couple of more years before they were finally divorced,

but that was basically the end of the marriage. And so it's like she lived, but it killed her singing voice, of course. She explained it differently in her journal, but yeah, it definitely affected it. I knew my great-grand I was so I knew my great-grandmother you know and I remember her having a raspy voice when we had pictures of her when we were kids you know she actually survived quite quite long after Lon passed away I just remember in Man of a Thousand Faces one of my favorite scenes is she shows up, probably never happened, but she shows up on the set of the Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Cagney in hunchback makeup goes over,

and she gasps, and Cagney goes, still afraid of freaks, Cleaver? Yeah, well... They took some liberties, huh, Ron? Yeah, they took some liberties. You know, Cleaver wasn't like that. I don't think so at all. I think she had a lot of regrets for what she did. She laid a lot of blame on herself. So, you know, it wasn't that she...

It was, you know, jealousies and business and those things were going on. You know, funny times during that period of time still do. But I guess our family's always been truncated in that nature. Hopefully mostly good, but there's certainly some tragedies that exist, no doubt, in our family. Hopefully mostly good, but there's certainly some tragedies that exist, no doubt, in our family. Also, in the movie, I mean, they're talking about, you know, Lon Chaney, who was a brilliant makeup artist. And because he did all his own makeups and hunchbacked. That little kit that he traveled around with. Yes, there'd always be those photos of that little beat-up metal kit. Yep. And he was brilliant

at makeup. But in the movie, they used one of the Westmores to do Cagney's makeup. And it's one of the biggest glaring problems there. And the Westmores are talented, but the makeup was terrible. Interesting. Well, that was another big discrepancy. My search always to find the right person, you have to have similar bone structure.

And I think that was the difference. If you look at Cagney, he had a little bigger head. Lon was much thinner. So no matter what appliance you would put on, it didn't look... And it's kind of hard. I think that's always the tough part to compare yourself to Lon. bigger head, long was much thinner. So no matter what appliance you would put on, it didn't look, you know, and it's kind of hard. I think that's always the tough part to compare yourself to long, you know, and it was only one of them.

So, you know, you're comparing yourself to the masterpiece, you know, of what he created. So, plus they had some issues, I do believe, with the universal MGM. If you remember at the end, they showed the different pictures, you know, kind of in drawings. Was that because, that was because MGM still held rights to those films. So that's how they had to depict it to get around that. And the funny thing is, I've seen photos of you and films of you.

You actually have a resemblance to your great-grandfather. Yeah, I do, you know, and so I do go into the makeup. I enjoy it. I do it more for fun, for tribute. But usually I've written something, and I usually have a – there's something behind what I do, whether it's just a test or for fun or for the fans to enjoy, then I'll do it for those reasons. But with most of the makeups I've done,

there was a reason behind each and every one of them. So with different projects I'm working on. You know, I saw an interview with Forrest Ackerman, Ron. He said, I don't know if you agree with this, I'd be curious, he said if your great-grandfather had lived, that he would have played Dracula. I mean, he was being courted to play Dracula at the time of his death. But Forrest Ackerman was saying he would have played Dracula. I mean, he was being courted to play Dracula at the time of his death, but Forrest Ackerman was saying he would have played Frankenstein, he would have played Jekyll and Hyde,

he believed that he would have gone on to play all the classic characters, or at least been offered the roles. You would have thought so, I would agree with that too, because think of it, you know, MGM loaned him out before for The Phantom, he was under contract, but they knew that his star would get bigger with the Phantom, so they loaned him out for that. And why would they not loan him out again for another big role like that? It would make sense that he would have been in line, or probably,

and his contract would have been ending, too, so he would have been, you know, free again. He would have been independent, although I think he enjoyed working with Irving Dahlberg at MGM. He's one of the few executives he trusted. And his death, of course, in 1930, we've talked about this with Bela Jr., opens the door for Lugosi to be cast as the count. Yeah, it's funny how that all came kind of full cycle there, because, you know, Cheney not doing it, he went to Lugosi, and then of course he turned down the Frankenstein that Karloff got. Ten years later, they were looking for someone else, and he got handed back to Cheney again to finish up. So that was kind of cool, it's a cycle.

Gilbert, I thought you thought this was interesting, and you probably know this already, but Forrest Ackerman was saying that he believed that Groucho, do you know this? Have you heard this before? I'm not sure. Patterned his crouch and part of his character, his movements in Lon Chaney in London After Midnight. Yeah, I had heard that. Someone who had seen London After Midnight, which is a totally lost film. All you see is a scary vampire makeup he has. But they say that the walk, I mean, people who saw it now, you know,

who remember it laugh because he's walking around like Groucho Marx. Have you heard that, Ron? You know, I did more recently. I never knew that, but yeah. And I tried looking it up to see what he walked like, you know i did more recently i'd never knew that but yeah and i tried looking it up to see what he walked like you know and it kind of was a he would bend his legs inward and kind of into this stooped grouch so yeah they look similar and the funny thing is genie who did this scary makeup phantom makeup, Phantom of the Opera, and all these others, never actually was a monster in any of his films.

You're right, you know, and if you look at very much the theme of his films, it was the unrequited love, and he sacrificed himself most often for somebody else's happiness at the end, which, and then he played all these deformed characters or misread characters, which leads you straight back to the deafness in the family. And, you know, I'm sure there was a lot of ridicule. His father's name was Dummy in town. He was Dummy Chaney.

He was the barber, you know, called Dummy Chaney. So he had to listen to that stuff all his life. Yeah, that's what they called deaf people, dummies. Well, that was really what they called them even when they do interviews. Oh, yeah, oh, Dummy Chaney, yeah, he worked back over there. He was the barber in that head barber shop, you know, in Colorado Springs for 35 straight years, the head barber, you know. So you can imagine somebody with sign language and using their hands,

how adept they would be to do in shapes. Of course, there's razors and everything else. I mean, and he did. He sat at the head chair the entire time and was, like, in a suit every day on time. And that's where a lot of Lon's fortitude came from was just definitely the character just like his father. Well, and the work ethic, I mean, and the sacrifices, the physical toll that some of those costumes and makeup... Forgive me, Ron, and I did some research on this, and I can't remember the film where he's playing a legless... where he's got his knees...

Oh, is that the penalty? I think it's the... is it the penalty? Yes. And he's got his legs strapped up behind the top coat? And, you know, the pain that he must have endured. And I heard he would jump and land on his knees. I would recommend, if the audience has never seen a Cheney film, that would be one I'd recommend seeing, because you truly think he had no legs the way he devised this thing. And he did definitely torture himself in probably most of his roles.

And the hunchback? It was always left up to him to create it. So he had to figure that himself. And I heard with the hunchback, the hump on his back was like 60 pounds. And he wore these straps to keep himself bent over the whole time. Yes. You can see the harness and it does it as this, you know, kind of center chest piece of ring where they would latch the strap on

to pull him down. He physically couldn't stand up straight. He stayed hunched. So he suffered for that one, too. And also after that, he had to wear glasses because he did damage to his eye. Oh, jeez. This I hadn't heard.

Ever after the hunchback, you'll see him wearing glasses after that. Oh, wow. That's what I'm talking about. The personal sacrifice that he went through for his art. How do you know until you do it?

And by the time you do it, then the damage is done. I mean, I've kind of experimented with some of the makeups. And, you know, I did a little test on London. And I think I figured out how he did one of his things. And, you know, it definitely was painful. And my eyes weren't quite the same afterwards. But, you know, I was trying to find that secret, you know. And is it true?

See, because this, you never know when it gets to be a story, that he used a fishhook to turn his nose up as the Phantom of the Opera? Well, I'll share this since I shared it at the event I did last week. He, my grandfather kind of threw him an idea when he was watching him trying to figure out how to flare his nose up, and he was trying different things. And he said, you know, hey, how about a lady's hairpin? And he kind of pulled it up on there, and he thought it was a pretty good idea.

And so he tried it, and that's pretty good, you know. But after about two days, it ate right through his nose, and Graham said he bled like a stuck pig, you know, and he cussed him out for that. And then he went back, and then he said, well, but I gave him, he needed time for his nose to heal, so he started working on the mouthpiece, you know. So, yeah, he did some extreme things. He figured out something else to work, but you can see what he went through. And, again, how would you know until you've already done the damage, you know.

And Chaney, when he was struggling, well, anything, he just wanted to have a career in showbiz he did like every single job you could on those his work ethic you know he was uh constantly on the move you know if he was standing around he'd go help move lights you know if he was doing because when he was in it really goes back to his stage days and even back to his childhood when not only did he have to take care of his mother, he had to take care of his younger siblings, you know, so he was, he was cooking and he was washing dishes and he was doing laundry back in those days, you know, that's all by hand, everything. So, you know, this is where he learned a lot of the early skills for sure that carried

with him throughout his life, you know that work is sick too and one time he picked up a hitchhiker by the name of boris carloff i thought you were going to find that story i'm going to let you tell that one because it's a good one oh well i heard boris karloff told the story he was hitchhiking. He was a struggling actor. And he gets picked up by Lon Chaney Sr. And Lon Chaney basically was giving him advice. And he says, find something that you can do that other people can't do. Pretty good advice, huh? Yes. Well, he was generous that way wasn't he Ron I mean I was I was kind of moved by these stories of him standing up for

struggling actors for crew members you know writing wrongs there's a great quote by Wallace Beery that I know you know where he he says he was someone who walked with Kings and never lost his common touch. Absolutely. He had too much struggle in his life. The effort was mostly a struggle, I would have to say. Most of his life was a struggle until he finally attained some level of fame. But he was a true artist.

It was everything to him. Once he discovered he wasn't going to be on stage anymore, and by the time he hit the silent films, he could go make money, and the more things he could do, the more money he could make, because he needed to get a home for his son. So once they separated, my grandfather was put in a home for, you know, divorcing his dad. That was Lon Chaney Jr. He was put away in a home. He remarried a gal that was actually a chorus girl that they worked with, with Colvin Dill.

And, you know, they got married around 19, right after their divorce was final. They both, they got married and then Gramps, you know, lived with them. And Clevel was pretty much out of the picture till later. You know, it wasn't like what they depicted in the story that she had no contact with him or he didn't know that she was alive it was just the fact she was no longer around and i think once that bridge was burned lon didn't really forget stuff like that so you know that's admirable you know gil we've been talking a lot about me undies for a few episodes now,

but we should take a moment to tell the listeners again how great an opportunity this is. Yes, because they sent me underwear. They sent you underwear? They sent me underwear, and it's so soft, and it just is so comfortable, and it's got all these different colors and patterns that ever since me undies sent me those underwear, I've been walking around without pants on. Yes, I'm traumatized. I just walk down the street with no pants because it's stupid when they've got great designs like that to cover it with pants. No one screams there's a pantsless Gilbert Gottfried standing in the street.

No, no, no. They all expect it. This is what's so great about MeUndies. They sell luxury underwear, and you would know, at half the price. And they've created the most comfortable underwear in tons of styles and colors, which you just spoke about. All you have to do is go to MeUndies.com slash Gilbert. You pick out what you like, and they'll send you your underwear, just like they sent it to Gil.

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This is, I know, I knew the cop who was at this scene. It was the colors of MeUndies that distracted him. He pointed to the zombies. See, Jimmy was looking at those MeUndies that distracted him. He pointed to the zombies. See, Jimmy was looking at those MeUndies. Just go to MeUndies.com slash Gilbert and you'll get 20% off your first order. That's 20% off an already great deal. And those happen to be three of Gilbert's favorite words. You would think your three favorite words were Lon Chaney Jr., but no.

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slash gilbert to get 20 off your first order so so let's talk a little bit about your grandpa who was born in the trunk. Oh, wait, wait. We should talk about how, according to Chaney Jr., how he was born. In Oklahoma, right? Oklahoma. They were at Del Mar Gardens. I went there to try to verify it. gardens. I went there to try to verify it. I just could not for the life of verify where this old place was, Belle Isle, because there was no lake there. And then I went to the Oklahoma Historical Society after researching, and finally I found it. It used to be this wonderful place,

but then it was overrun with mosquitoes, so it didn't exist, and there was pictures of this lake there. And during February, of course, it's cold in February, and, you know, Cleveland went into an early labor. According to Loncini Jr., he described it as he was black and dead when he was born, and the doctor was about ready to give up and just bury him. And Loncini Sr. grabbed him, ran outside in freezing winter,

crashed a hole through the ice in the lake and dunked him to shock him into being alive. That's how the story goes. Great story. I hope it's true. You like that, huh? He was born like two months premature. My great-grandmother, they refer to it, looked like a little, what a cube of butter looked like, you know, and he was revived, and then they lawn made a, you know, back in those days,

they had shoe boxes. So he cut holes in it all over. And then he lined the whole thing with cotton. And then they put my grandfather in this, you know, box line thing and put him in one of the old stoves back then, like an early incubator. And that's how they kind of started nursing them along. So they had Lon Chaney Jr., the wolf man, was put in a shoebox, and the shoebox was

put in the oven. Well, that's it. He was big. Unbelievable. He was big. He was probably made one of the first incubators, you know, to kind of keep him alive. And he said six months later, Dad was using me as a prop in a stage act, like juggling him in a stage act. You know, the little infant.

He made his first appearance at six months old. Kind of like Buster Keaton? Yeah. Yeah. He got the, yeah, Buster Keaton, they used to, they practically killed him on stage. They used to toss him into the audience, according to Jimmy Caron. Well, Buster Keaton, Harold Lloyd, those guys were just amazing. Just phenomenal artists.

You know, Charlie Chaplin, Chaney. What a magical time, those silent sounds. What a magical time, those silent films, because it truly was a different time, and so much more pantomime was involved in silent films of that day, and music contributed so much to them that we've kind of lost, but now there's new shows with scores, which you see them in a whole other light that way. So Chaney Jr. was basically tossed around like a prop? Indeed.

He became a part of the show. Well, he did. I mean, he grew up on the road. He was very much a child of show business. Oh, absolutely. He definitely was the proverbial baby born in a trunk, no doubt about it. And even Lon made a hammock, you know, in the caboose that they used to travel on, and so that they would put him in there while they were traveling.

Because remember, we're talking 1905, 1906, going down a road, you know, a train track. They were building a train sometime. The track is they were going along. So they would play in barns. They would play in, you know, storefronts. Very seldom did they actually get a legitimate theater unless they reached Chicago or one of the bigger cities. So you can imagine the struggle. And when Cheney and his wife were performing, they would hand

Cheney Jr. over to the chorus girls. Yes. Well, Cleaver started doing her own thing. She was becoming a big star. She was a big cabaret star. You know, she was a hit up in San Francisco, and then she was a hit in L.A. And, you know, Lon, he was the stage manager. That's what he did. He stage managed.

He played roles in those early stage days. So he was the choreographer. He was doing about five people's jobs. I mean, he was that, you know, just high-strung that way, you know. And he would do that for probably 10, 12 hours a day. They put on like five and six shows, matinee shows all day long into the night. And so the chorus girls, you know, Clevel was out, and they were kind of separated, and she was doing her own thing. So Creighton, my grandfather, would go with his dad to the shows,

and the girls would watch him. You know, the chorus girls would watch him while Lon was working. And he was still Creighton, my grandfather, would go with his dad to the shows, and the girls would watch him. The course girls would watch him while Lon was working. And he was still Creighton then. Yeah. Lon Chaney Jr. wouldn't happen for years. Yeah, I mean, even as a kid, watching the ending of Man of a Thousand Faces where Cagney is dying,

and he hands his makeup kit that says Lon Chaney on it and he takes a crayon and draws Junior is total bullshit of course well especially because he didn't want his son to go into the business very varied a little bit there I think that was something that uh you know they made up certainly well didn't he run I'm sorry up. Well, didn't he, Ron? I'm sorry to cut you off. Didn't he discourage Creighton, young Creighton, from going into show business? Yeah.

You know, he knew the struggles. He saw it. He lived it. You know, he knew everything about the business. He knew how the executives worked. You know, by that time, you know, he was big enough to start calling some of his own shots now. But he never forgot the hardships of it in the breakup of the marriage.

It was really hard on him. I don't think he wanted to see his own son. He would have rather seen him in a more stable occupation. He wanted him, and I think he did for a while, Janie Jr., work as a plumber. Yeah, he married, well, my grandma, of course. He married grandma, and her father owned General Water Heating Company in Los Angeles. They made all the water heaters, so the company did very well. He became the secretary of the company,

and then when he had his opportunity after his dad died that someone was going to get him an audition, he resigned because it was in his heart. He grew up with it. I don't think he could have helped it, even with the one that was in him, you know, to go pursue it. So when his opportunity came, he did. And his childhood was a lot of it, years in like basically like an orphanage. No, no. years in like basically like an orphanage uh no no uh between the years for a time he was he was basically put into a home uh you know uh just you know because long was working in cleveland was a

mess you know she was a mess she she didn't show up at the divorce hearing she was you know she just knew that she couldn't take care of him let's's put it that way. She regretted it all her life. But that's the way it was. He was struggling. He started to get bit parts in movies, like in real low-budget movies, as Creighton Chaney. And then they started pushing him

to they said we can only sell you as Lon Chaney Jr. Well that's you know Lon was pretty you know he became the number one box office star movies were still big with sound

you know sound was coming into play now he did one talking film but you His movies were still big, but sound, you know, sound was coming into play. Now he did one talking film, but, you know, he was still at... Holy three. Right. Yeah, the remake. Remake. So, you know,

he kind of followed in as he knew of anybody. If there was one person of anybody who knew that his father could never, you know, that he was so unique, it was him. So he didn't really want to follow with the same name, you know, that he was so unique. It was him. So he didn't really want to follow with the same name. You know, I don't think he was opposed to it. I think the second wife was more opposed to it than he was,

and he was cool with it. But he didn't. So he went to, he signed with, he had several offers, but he signed with David Selznick at RKO because he was allowed to keep his name and he started his career as Creighton Chaney. Yeah, because I had always heard he was kind of, for the rest of his life, embarrassed to be Lon Chaney Jr. It made him uncomfortable. No, I don't think so. Once he took the name, he didn't like the junior on it oh yeah i don't think he minded the lawn chain he didn't particularly care for the junior on the end i i i

read an autobiography from um keenan winn oh and he said he was working with Cheney. And Cheney Jr. said, look at me. I got grandkids. Do I look like a junior to you? Oh, really? Oh, that's cool. I never heard that before, but I had some pictures with them together. So, well, that's cool. Oh, no, I was just going to say, is it safe to say ron that the name changed actually gave him a career boost when he went from creighton cheney to to lon cheney jr did the roles did the roles improve was there a direct connection or was it just that that he was starting to break through on his own no he uh well he did get more money. He signed with Fox. So he got a contract with Fox, so he was paid better, but he didn't get any particular great roles. And then when he left Fox

or when the contract ended, he struggled. I mean, he was struggling, struggling, struggling to the very end. He'd been divorced and remarried and kind of lost his family through all of this, going into the picture business, you know. And then he did Mice and Men. Yeah, now, originally, Broderick Crawford was cast as Lenny, but Cheney really campaigned for it. Well, he'd done it on the stage, right? Yeah, in California.

And once he did it in the West Coast, they opened and then they went to San Francisco. It was a huge hit up there. They came back, did an L.A. show, and from then on, you know, that gave him his opportunity to obviously play it in the film. That's why Broderick didn't end up getting that role. And then it's kind of funny, later in their careers,

Gramps played Harry Brock in Born Yesterday in a subway circuit back east, and he was hoping to get that film role, and then Broderick took that one, and they kind of got back at each other. They were good friends, too, and used to brawl and drink and have a good time together. And I heard Janie Jr. was like, they were using him, before he even had the part,

to test the other actors who they were auditioning for of Mice and Men. Isn't that how Lewis Milestone got convinced, Ron? Yes, absolutely. That's how he got the role. He didn't want to have him, but he did test. And what was it that he said? He said something along the lines that after he tested all these different ones just to read the parts for the other actors that was auditioning,

I couldn't see anyone else playing that role after all of that. It's funny. I like Roger Crawford, but I don't see him as Lenny. I guess he was good in it, and he did it on Broadway. But now, you know, I can only, throughout all the versions of that that I've seen, there's one with John Malkovich. Oh, yeah. I can only see your grandpa.

I can't, you know, in the same way, I can't, I mean, when after Phantom of the Opera, any version of Phantom of the Opera was terrible. After the Cheney version, there was the Herbert Lum, the Claude Rains. Didn't Claude Rains do this? Yeah, and all terrible. And now, supposedly the other versions of Of Mice and Men that they've done over the years have been good, but I can't watch it without Cheney and Burgess Meredith together. You know, the other guys were wonderful.

I think they all did a marvelous job, but, you know, perhaps was the best Lenny ever. Yeah, and whenever Cheney Jr. gets maligned, which you'll see people write and they'll talk about him being some terrible actor or something. I always think they obviously haven't seen Of Mice and Men. Because his performance was amazing in there. Oh, absolutely. Honestly, I've seen Gramps in a lot of films. I used to watch him on TV here and there, you know, and, oh, there's Gramps, oh, that's cool, he's

in another movie, and he did a lot of Indian thinking, mostly westerns and things like that, of course, horror films, but it was when I saw Of Mice and Men that he really, I didn't see him as my grandfather anymore. I saw him as his character. He was so good at it. I mean, even to me, I believe that was his best role ever. Was it a setback for him, Ron, not getting the part in the Hunchback movie in 1939? I know he was up for the part. He was up for the part. Would he have done it?

Yeah, I think he would have. You know, he knew sign language. He grew up with it. He lived with his grandparents, communicated via sign. It would have been interesting to see what he could do. And I actually have a photograph. I think he did a test makeup on it.

And I've got a photo in our archives that he's actually the hunchback, but he's about that age. Of course, he did it later on Route 66. He's much older. But this one is from a much younger. So I'm imagining without actually seeing it, it's got to be the test for it. I kind of wonder, though, if it was good that he didn't get it. Because then it could have been like, you know, Frank Sinatra Jr. singing a Frank Sinatra song. Interesting.

And everybody would immediately go, oh, he's not his father. Well, not always concerned. I mean, you know, when you have a shadow like that over you, you know, no matter what people didn't mean it intentionally, but, you know, no matter at one point or another, even when they were talking about his own long career, it inevitably would always lead to his father wanting to know about him. You know, sometimes, probably after so many times, you get a little frustrated with that. But, you know, he was very proud of his father, loved him.

And, you know, there were some tough times in there. So, you know, they all bore scars. Then that led him on to Man-Made Monster with Lionel Atwill. Well, you know, that's an interesting—I wanted to ask Ron if that's a turning point, you think, Ron, in his career, because he's coming off of Of Mice and Men, which is a prestige film. because he's coming off of Mice and Men, which is a prestige film. And I guess then One Million B.C., you know, where he makes the makeup and then he doesn't get a chance to use his own makeup because of union rules. But it looks like there's a certain career trajectory or a career direction there

when he's coming off of great notices for the stage part of Mice and Men and then also the film. And within a year, a year and a half, he's in horror films. And it seems like, you know, the corner was turned and he had trouble turning back. And horror films are kind of looked on as people as like, you know, it gets looked down on. Well, they were B-movies. I mean, even back in those days, they were considered B-movies. You know, nobody's going to like these, but then everybody loved them.

And, you know, we're hitting a jackpot here. You know, you well know there's always money involved, and then people reacted in such a way. I mean, you go back to, you know, I mean, they did Frankenstein way, way back when. But really, the Hunchback kind it wasn't really a horror film, but the Phantom really kind of set it, and Nosferatu, of course, before that, but it was more in Europe's side,

but once it got here, you know, Dracula, then Frankenstein, and then The Bride, and all those cool films, you know, it just, it was a mystique. People liked being scared, you know, I don't know what it is about us, but until this day, you know, being on the edge was kind of fun, too. And he got his second great part, his most famous role, as Lawrence Talbot, who would turn into the Wolfman in 41.

Indeed. That was his baby, as he referred to it. Nobody else could play it like he did, and he did it in all five of the Universal films. It was something that... With Lenny, he removed himself

from his father's shadow. He was looked at as his own actor in himself, like you said, Frank, which led to the universal thing. And then with the Wolfman, he was able to create that character through his acting. And I think you see a lot of the sign in the studio. Like you were saying, Gilbert, you know,

Lon was showing these signs for fear and for love. Well, you see those things in the Wolfman. If you really look for them, the facial features and the pantomime where the anguish was just so evident. I think that's what endeared him to the fans that loved that film. Yeah, the Wolfman,

Frankenstein meets the Wolfman, House of Frankenstein, House of Dracula, and Abedin Costello meet Frankenstein. Yeah, you know, and he was always trying to not hurt anybody, just, you know, kind of that dual nature in people, and I think maybe that's what a lot of people identify with that. Well, also, he brings such sadness to the part, you know.

You could look at it on the surface as a B-movie, but, you know, he's tragic. It's like... You know, he brings so much to it. It's kind of like a horror film noir. It is. Interesting, yes. You know what? Never thought of it that way.

I think you're right. You know, there was such pathos in that role. But look at your... I mean, Bela Lugosi was in it, and Maria Oskun Spai. I mean, there was some fine, a quad range. Oh, yeah, Ralph Bellamy. You know, the cast was A-plus. The movie, maybe budget was down, but, you know, with the talent they had in there, I

think that's where those films, you know, rose above and became classics. Don't forget Maria Oskun-Skaja. Oh, yes. Absolutely. The way you walk is thorny. There are no fault of your own. That was pretty good. Now, Chaney Jr., though,

they always talk about this, that he was a bad, bad drinker. Yeah, you know. I'm not going to deny that, yeah. He liked to drink, there's no doubt about that. It was during those days, you know, he grew up in the 20s and the 30s and the 40s, and, you know,

by the time he was doing that, he liked to drink. The guys all drank. He hung out with Roderick, and a lot of the stars at Universal were big boys back in those days, and he liked, you, and he wasn't just an actor. He liked to hunt. He liked to fish.

He liked to ride horses. You know, I mean, he really had a lot of different hobbies he did. I think the actors more so in those days did as opposed to today. I heard Cheney and Broderick Crawford, since they would be booked together a lot, would get bombed out of their skulls and get into fistfights. I heard Robert Stack said that, I read in an interview, that they were kind of the terrors of the universal lot. Yeah, they would beat each other up, and then they'd go action,

and they'd do the scene, and then they'd go back to, like, punching each other, and not even out of hatred. Well, they were acting. I mean, I remember Gramps talking about that stuff, you know, so, okay, we're going to act this out, you know, and both on set and off, let's put it that way, but on set, you know, okay, I think in North Dakota, my grandfather did a lot of great fight scenes. He looked over his overall career, man. He did some great fight scenes. But that one, he said, well, we were there, you know,

we were throwing and pulling our punches and turning. You do as actors. They both done stunts in their day. And, of course, all of a sudden they nailed each other off. Okay. I mean, they really went at it in that. And they got bloodied up. And then afterwards they would have a good time, too.

They did tend to like to drink together, and they could probably match, you know, they could match each other pretty good in that regard. But one of the funniest ones was when they were, they were the terrible Universal for sure, but I don't know if you guys ever saw that photograph of them. My grandfather, he was in one of the sound stages or one of the sets, and he's looking at the ceiling, all the furniture is like upside down and stuck to the ceiling. And he's got this puzzled look on his face. How did this stuff get here?

Apparently the night before him and Brian had tied one on, they went in there, and they turned everything upside down. They glued it and hammered it all through. When they came in the next day, everything was upside down in the set. So they knew who did it, so they got a little bit of trouble on that one. Now, there was also, and this was a bad thing that happened with Chaney through his drinking and the way they would do live TV. He was in a live production of

Frankenstein. Do you know this story? Yeah, yeah. Well, it's possible. You know, not being there, I don't know, but it is the story that they were live and he thought they were doing a take, so he wasn't breaking stuff like he was.

It's very strange to watch the footage of him picking up the furniture and then putting it down safely. Yes. You go, why is he? Because he's supposed to smash the house to bits. Right, right. Well, it probably could make sense.

I don't know. Maybe he misread it or he didn't know. Obviously, he thought it was a rehearsal or he would have broken it. He was a pretty physical guy. He knew how to play that role. He called his bread and butter really as Lenny. You were asked about his type as a horror actor, but he was equally as typed as Lenny. And even up to when The Monkees was the biggest show on the air, he reprised his Lenny role for that.

Oh, yeah, Lenny and George with Uncle Leo. Len Lesser. Len Lesser. Well, he did that throughout his career. You can see Len seeing a lot of it. Oh, loads. When he went back on stage a couple of times, I interviewed his stage manager at one time, and he said he was pretty frustrated.

You know, they play cards after, you know, during the long stretches between, you know, the performances. And he said, yeah, you know, he would create a character, he'd get the role, and he'd create the character how he wanted to play it. And when they'd get there, they'd be directed in a direction. Oh, man, that is really good. But can you put a little more of the Lenny in it? You know, and they did it to him a lot. So, you know, he just called it his bread and butter so he could pull it out of the hat at any time going to that character.

So he was a little frustrated with it, but, you know, it also gave him a good living, too. Gilbert and I were talking, Ron, about there's a clip of him online toward the end of his life, and he's talking with some small degree, I think, of resentment for the way the comedies, I guess particularly Abbott and Costello and Frankenstein, which he uses the word ruins, you know, ruined the universal horror stories and the horror films.

I mean, did he feel that way? Well, I think he knew once it went comedy that that cycle was over. And maybe it was the language they used at that time, even when I read what he wrote now, was different than it is now. So different words could be interpreted differently. You know what I mean? I think he enjoyed it, but he knew that that part of his career was done.

It would never take them serious again after a comedy. Because, you know, he had a little bit of a flair for comedy. I mean, he was in a couple of Bob Hope pictures. He was in Here Come the Coeds. Grant had a wonderful sense of humor. He really had a wonderful sense of humor. People don't know that, and he was very creative, too. But he really had no formal education.

He grew up, you know, in a train for the most part. Really never went to school until he was older. And it's so funny. In Abbott and Costello meet Frankenstein, both Cheney and Bale Lugosi are very funny. And, you know, people don't realize it. Oh, absolutely. I mean, well, they're playing it straight, but they're kind of adding that element.

Wait a second, this is a comedy, and, I mean, playing it like that made it more funny. You know, they definitely were both. I mean, that's a classic. I must admit, I love that film. Do you have any sense? Did he ever talk about that film or if he had any fun making it? He did have fun making it.

I think sometimes, you know, he'd been an actor a long time and maybe sometimes, you know, if they're not, like, doing it. I know that because I still like to have a lot of fun on set, you know, and maybe he was a little more serious. Like, let's get this work done first, and then we can have some fun or something like that, you know. But, you know, that's... You know what's...

And I know that he loved the movie. I mean, so I don't know why there would be any controversy over it. It was obviously a huge hit for him. But he had been going through some personal things prior to that film, so that might have something to do with it. When I was, you know, I was of that generation of kids who horror movies and old movies started showing on TV. And I wonder if Cheney realized that to my generation, Lon Cheney Jr. was the big star.

It wasn't Lon Cheney Sr. to us. We knew he was related, but it was Lon Cheney Jr. that we all looked at as a star. Well, you know, that's interesting you say that. So where did you grow up? Back east. Yeah, in New York. So, and I was from, you know, I grew up in Palm Springs area in California, which is a small town then, but as I learned now that I do more of the family thing, you know,

of all those shows where people on the east coast and you had your horror host back there, they had them in Ohio and Pennsylvania and New York and down east. I never realized that out here. We didn't have that market. He did. He gained a whole other generation of fans with those television shows. Of course, Forry Ackerman, Famous Monsters magazine just kind of cemented them. I have to tell you something. Right now, I'm interviewing you from my apartment.

On the wall, when you come in... We should take a picture and send it to you, Ron. Yes. There's a fiberglass life mask of Lon Chaney Jr. on the wall in a glass case. Oh, cool. I didn't know you were such a big Chaney Jr. fan. He's been obsessed with your grandfather ever since, well, since I knew him. Yeah.

Forever. And I also, because you mentioned Fari Ackerman and Famous Monsters, and Famous Monsters, they said that Lon Chaney Jr. was not feeling well, and they gave an address where you could write him a get-well card. So I was a little kid. I wrote him a get-well card, and I got back in a little envelope a postcard-sized photo of the Wolfman, and it was signed Lon Chaney on the bottom. And I have that in a frame hanging on my wall. You have to send a picture of the life mask and a picture of that to Ron.

I know which one you're talking about. Did it say Dallas, Texas or something on the back? I don't know. I'd have to look. You see, you know, that's my grandfather.

He loved kids. You know, I think that's why I was so close to him. You know, I mean, when I grew up with him, I was a child. He passed away when I was 17 years old.

So my life with my grandfather was growing up with this man. I knew he was an actor, but he was Gramps to me. We didn't really talk about the movies, but it was just kind of, oh, that's what he did. To me, he was more home, and then I'd see him on TV and go, oh, I thought he was home. And it seems like one of the reasons he was so great as Lenny is that in a lot of ways he was a big kid. He was. And I remember seeing a quote where he said if he could, he'd adopt every single orphan because there's nothing lousier than growing up unloved well he had a tough childhood there's no doubt about it you know uh did he try to adopt janet ann gallo uh yes he did

yeah uh yeah matter yeah sure it goes on ghost of franken. And her brother. And her brother. Yeah. Because her mother died when she was eight. Yeah. And Cheney was in love with her. And we're going to be calling Janet Ann shortly. We're talking to her for the same Halloween episode, Ron. Oh, that's great. And I know Janet. I love her.

She's such a doll. We'll say hi for you. Oh, we'll give. And I know Janet. I love her. She's such a doll. We'll say hi for you. Oh, well, give her your love. Yeah, so, yes, he did. And, you know, he liked kids. I think he felt that probably had to do with his own upbringing, for sure. No doubt about it. And you've got to understand, too, Lon Chaney Jr., to me,

understand too to lon cheney jr to me it's like to a little to a teenage girl what justin bieber is he's not kidding that's hysterical well i'll have to get you something there from our collection somehow you know That's hysterical. Well, I'll have to get you something there from our collection somehow, you know? Oh, thank you. Ron, is there something you – there's so many other questions we could ask you. We'll do it another time. Or when you're in New York, you look us up.

We would talk about Stanley Kramer and High Noon and the Defiant Ones and all the other cool stuff he did in his career. But do you have something you want to plug or something you want to talk about? I know you've been working on the Century of Chains. Yeah, Century of Chains book. You want to say anything about it? Well, that is a book. You know, I found that book when we moved my grandmother years and years ago. And I tried to figure out what I wanted to do, but I know when I found it it was something that had to do with following my own path and making a new film of it this day and I kind of

been researching ever since I'm back working on it but he announced it on Johnny Carson in 1969 and I remember him working on it so I kind of jump off because I do some producing and nothing so I kind of get sidetracked but it's never far from my mind everything I do relates producing and other things, so I kind of get sidetracked, but it's never far from my mind. Everything I do relates to the Cheney, so I just get more knowledgeable as I try different things myself. So hopefully in this next year I'll get that first one out, and that's the early part of our family,

and I really cover the early years of the family and the deafness. Chapter one is called The Foundation. And don't you have a desire to make a film? Did I get this right, about your great-grandpa? Absolutely. That has been my goal all along, and I've been writing a few scripts myself, and maybe we can go into that

next time around. Next time. Okay, so... We hope we see that book one of these days. It's been a goal I owe to the fans, and so I've kind of done my thing right now. I kind of try different projects, and I think I've got to get back to that, and that's my next goal.

Good. And Gilbert will want to sign one. Yes, absolutely. Well, you got it. I look forward to doing it in person someday. And if you happen to have the gold, the silver handle from the Wolfman. Actually, I have a identical replica of Bob Burns who owned that piece. Years ago, we had a new cast done by this great friend of ours, Henry Alvarez, who was a brilliant artist. is a great friend of ours, Henry Alvarez, who is a brilliant artist.

And we recast the original prop, so I do have a couple reproductions of that. And it's very cool. And I have a set of his Wolfman teeth, too. Oh, wow. Oh, God. That's, God, the Wolfman teeth. I do. Oh, my God.

No Wolfman? The Wolfman's teeth, absolutely. Also, we're supposed to ask you. Hey, man? Wolf man's teeth. Also, we're supposed to ask you. Hey, I have my own, too. You know, it runs in the blood. Did Cheney and Burgess Meredith ever speak years? Did they stay in touch? Not really that I'm aware of. I tried to interview burgess once years ago and he was just coming out

with his book and i wanted to kind of get a comment from him you know that's what i've tried to do over the years get comments from various people you know about their thoughts on shane kind of put it into the area of the story that it would be long but uh he was working on his book they really didn't get any real clear-cut comment from him, unfortunately. They were such a great team. Oh, yeah. Now I'm angry at Burgess Meredith. Yeah, you know, he wanted to release his book, but, you know, I got it.

I'm saying right now on my podcast, fuck you, Penguin. Don't take it to heart, Gil. don't take it to heart you know their work speaks for itself it was an amazing movie and i don't care all of them fuck you penguin and fuck you mickey from uh the rocky movies you know that 39 was a tough year on that. That film could have won Best Picture. I think he could have. Stiff competition. He came in the wrong year, and I think he could have won an Academy Award for it.

But again, best year in film ever. Okay, so I have to wrap up because Janet Angallo is waiting for me. She's waiting for our call, Ron. I'm Gilbert Gottfried. This has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. And we've been talking to

Ron Chaney. That's right. Ron Chaney. Who is the grandson of the Wolfman himself, Lon Chaney Jr. And the great grandson of the Phantom of the wolfman himself, Lon Chaney Jr., and the great-grandson of the Phantom of the Opera and the Hunchback of Notre Dame. And you'll have to come back on my podcast. Well, I'd love to. You let me know when you're ready.

And look us up when you're in New York, Ron. I shall. Happy Halloween. This was a lot of fun. Same to you guys. Thank you. Happy Halloween. This was a lot of fun. Same to you guys. Thank you. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween to everybody. Thanks. The Gilbert Gottfried Amazing Colossal

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That's Patreon. P-A-T-R-E-O-N dot com slash Gilbert Gottfried. Thank you for your generosity. And thank you, DFA Records. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre, and our guest is a former child actress who

appeared in such films as Canyon Passage, Till We Meet Again, It Ain't Hay. And she shared the screen with performers such as Ray Moland, Dana Andrews, Susan Hayworth, and Abbott and Costello. but she'll always be near and dear to our hearts, co-starring at the tender age of five with Baila Lugosi and my man Lon Chaney Jr. in 1942's universal horror classic Ghost of Frankenstein. Please welcome to the show Janet Ann Gallo. Hi there. Hi.

Hi, Janet. Thanks for doing this. And I want to tell our audience just how much we appreciate this, because we had you booked for another day, and then we got a call that that you weren't feeling well uh yeah i had a sore throat and my voice was cracking a lot oh yeah and i thought that's gonna be it she'll use this as an excuse she'll say i don't feel good and and you like called back and said okay i'll do it the next day. Right.

And that's a prayer. No, it's my pleasure, really. Now, I've got to ask you first. Do you remember doing a short film called On a Prayer with Larry? Oh, you do? Yes. Now, could you name the other two stars in that? Let me see.

It was, hold on just a second. I'm trying to think. Chuck, was it Chuck Connors? Chuck McCann. Oh, Chuck McCann. Chuck McCann, that's right. Chuck McCann. Chuck McCann.

And. Larry Storch. Both of them. And also the gal there. She and I had a great time. I'm trying to think of her name. It's terrible. That's okay.

Let us know when you think of it. Because what's so funny about this, and now interviewing you, What's so funny about this, and now interviewing you, we already interviewed Larry Storch and Chuck McCann. Yeah, they've both been guests on this show, Janet. So we've got the entire cast of that film. What's it called, On a Prayer? It was a fun little movie to be in. It was really fun.

Now, to me, and when we were asking you to be on the show, and I remember you were saying, oh, no one knows who I am. And to me, being a monster fan, the name Janet Ann Gallo is like saying Julia Roberts. Oh, my goodness. I never would have thought that.

How about that, Janet? That's really something because I wasn't even involved in anything 10 years ago, 10, 12 years ago. I was just doing my thing, you know, and that was about it. And then I got introduced to a lot of people, and before I knew it, I was doing the convention shows. Oh, great. Now, I got to say to the audience, and this is an interesting thing,

you're best known to horror fans like myself for Ghost of Frankenstein. Right. There is a scene in the movie, you're like five years old, you're a little girl by herself playing with her ball and these like older boys who are bullies take your ball and throw it on a rooftop lon cheney jr as the frankenstein monster shows up they get scared and run away now you as the

little girl are not at all afraid of the monster you just look at him as a friend and it's like you could see he's touched by your innocence. And in real life, wasn't that your relationship with Lon Chaney Jr.? Yes. I really loved Lon. I really loved him. And when my mother passed away, he and his wife, Patsy, wanted to adopt me and my brother, both.

Yeah, we just talked about that with Ron Chaney a few minutes ago. Ron Chaney sends his love, by the way. Oh, thank you. He's a sweetheart. We have a lot of fun together. Now, your mom died when you were eight, I think. Uh-huh. Right.

Yeah. I was eight years old. So Lon Chaney Jr. wanted to adopt you and your brother. Right. But your father was against this. Oh, yeah. My dad wouldn't even consider it. But, you know, that's because he said, no way, I'm not going to lose my kids.

I lost my wife. That's enough. Oh, of course. Sure. Now, but he used to drive you to the Cheney's house, and you and your brother would spend the day with Lon Cheney. Well, no, it was me and my mother. Oh, you and your mother. Oh, okay.

Oh yeah. We spent many, many days at the Chaney house. My mom was what you would call probably a stage mom at the time. And she and Lon got along real well. And so did Patsy, his wife, with her. So they used to invite us over all the time. We were always going over to Lanchini's house. And I heard on the set, Lanchini, this Lanchini Jr., who played the top four monsters, Frankenstein, Dracula, the Mummy, and the Wolfman. And he was like he had a reputation back then. Like adults didn't get along with him, it seems, because he was a drinker.

But you, I mean, it's like you got through to him. I think he loved children. He did. And he had two boys from a previous wife. And that's where Ron comes into it. He's one of the grandsons. And he didn't have any children with Patsy, his wife, at the time. And she wanted children.

And, of course, that's how it all came about that they wanted to adopt me and my brother. How did you come to be cast in The Ghost of Frankenstein to begin with, Janet? Well, I had worked in one short little film, Almost Married, I think it was the name of it. And I just had a very small part in it for Universal. And then they invited me back to try out for Ghost of Frankenstein. And my mother took me back and I got the part. And you weren't at all frightened by the subject matter, by the by the. Oh, no. Yeah.

No, not at all. It's so funny how the movie and your relationship with him imitate each other. Yes, that's very true. And he would, in his full Frankenstein makeup, ride you around on his shoulders. Yeah. And he would go off, you know, and as Frankenstein, he would walk off and buy you ice cream.

Oh, yeah. He was very good to me. And so was the director and Bella. They were all very good to me. Oh, tell us about Bela Lugosi. Oh, he was a great guy. Very sweet. And I really had the, what would you say, the whole cast.

I had everybody just having a good time with me. I had fun on the whole thing. Because you know, it was just like a big game for me. I had fun. Because Lugosi, he was returning from Son of Frankenstein

where he played the great part, Igor. And it was like a great role that he, a great performance. Yeah, he was good. Where he was like, put my brain in the monster's body. Right. Igor's body is no good. But I will have the strength of a hundred men.

That's very good. Are you having a flashback, Janet? Yes. So the two monsters, Lon Chaney Jr. and Bela Gossi were like sweethearts to you. Oh, yeah. They were all so nice to me, and they always had things going on for me to do and play and, you know, always. So it was great.

I found this interesting, Janet. You talked about memorizing the entire script. You knew everybody's part. Yeah, I had to because I didn't read at that time. What were you, five years? We said it in the intro, but it's been years. Yeah, and my mother would read me lines before my part would come in. So I'd know that part when they would say it and then i would have my lines right underneath

and um so your mother uh was like very pretty oh yes she sure was so i i kind of imagine she was probably she was like an actress or wanted to be an actress in her day. Yeah, she was very pretty, and she came down from San Jose, California, and the first thing she did was bleach her hair blonde. And she was Irish and Swedish, so her complexion did very well with the blonde hair. And I've heard you describe her, Janet, as a classic stage mother. Oh, yeah, she was. She was great.

She was great. We had a very close relationship as long as I had her. Can you tell me some of the activities that Chaney and Lugosi would have with you to keep you entertained, if you remember any of those? They'd play hide-and-seek. Was he wearing the makeup? Oh, yeah, they'd have the makeup on. See, I used to watch him get his makeup put on long. So that's why people would ask me, oh, weren't you scared? I wasn't scared because I knew what he looked like underneath the makeup.

That's great. So Lon Chaney as the Frankenstein monster and Beto Lugosi as Igor were playing hide-and-seek with you. That's right. They'd be hide-and-seek or they'd put me on their leg and bounce me up and down like a horse ride. It was fun. I never had a bad moment on the set. Never. Gilbert would give three years of his life to go back in time and play hide-and-seek with you guys. We had a good time.

Do you remember anything about your other co-stars, Janet, about Ralph Bellamy or Cedric Hardwick? Well, not really, because they didn't pay a lot of attention to me. Well, you were five. And they were with their own lives, you know. So the ones I was with was Bella and Lon most of the time, and a little bit of Evelyn Ankers, too. Oh, she was the scream queen of all the Universal monster movies,

this beautiful actress, Evelyn Ankers. Pretty, very pretty, and very sweet, very nice to me. Do you recall anything else about you were were in an Abbott and Costello movie too. You had a short career, Janet. You were in Ain't Hay when Gilbert and I love Abbott and Costello. Do you have any memories of that? And by the way, Shemp Howard was in Ain't Hay. Oh, wow.

Worth mentioning. Wow. So Abbott and Costello and Chimp. Do you have any memories of the unholy three? Oh, I have a lot of memories of Lou. Abbott was, again, kind of in his own world. But Lou was very, very sweet to me, very nice. And we joked around all the time. and he was always teasing me and stuff. You know, it was it was a nice relationship.

But like I said, he was he was in his own place in his own world. And so professional. And but you and Lou Costello would play together. Oh, yeah. And then when I had to first first I had to slap him. No, let's see. I don't remember if I kissed him first. I did one time I kissed him and one time I slapped him.

So I can't remember which came first. See, he was used to getting smacked by Bud Abbott in their act. I know, but I smacked him too. Yeah, that's an honor, smacking Lou Costello. And so would he be there going, Hey, Janet. I don't know. You had a short career, Janet.

When your mom passed away, I was reading a bio about you when you when your mom passed away i was reading a bio about you and when your mom passed away your your dad would continue to take you uh to auditions and take you on sets but yeah it kind of you know uh she passed away when i was eight i think i stopped completely when i was about 11 i didn't do anything after that dad couldn't keep doing that because he had a job to do. You know, he had to go to work where my mom was not working. So she always took me everywhere that I had to go, you know. And we'd ride the buses and the streetcars and stuff to go to Universal Studios

and different studios that we'd go to. But Dad couldn't keep that up. After a couple of years, he said, I can't do this anymore. And so I just dropped out. And did you ever consider going back into acting? I mean, you say you made your last film at the age of 11. Yeah. Did the bug ever bite you in the years to come?

Well, a little bit in high school, but I never did anything about it. Never did anything. You had a family by then. Now, you had gotten married at one point, and then I think you split with your husband. And I remember reading an interview that said you went into an acting school for a little. I went to Upstairs College and took drama classes, yes.

Just for fun. Did you tell everybody there who you were? No. I never did. And I think you said you went into it because that's something you felt comfortable with. Yes, I did. And I had just gotten a divorce. So it was a case where I just needed something to occupy my time.

And so that's what I did. Now, what I wonder, because, you know, at one point you think, well, you know, your mom died and then your career stopped. But like with so many child actors, when they hit 11 or 12, their career ends anyway because they're looked upon as, gee, they're old. Right, exactly. That's very true. And then if you can get through that little bit of teenager, pre-teen life, then you can hit it again. But that takes a lot of an agent working with you and trying to get you jobs. And it's like the most painful time for kids because they'll get a pimple or their voice changes. And like everyone's like, oh, what happened to you?

You know, like just aging and just growing into an adult is like a bad thing. Well, I think, you know, I remember going to one director's office once with my dad. But, you know, you get rejected real quick because if you haven't done anything a long time, they don't really care. Yeah. I find it interesting, Janet. So you leave the business at 11 and you're, you know, for lack of a better word, a civilian for all these years. Yeah. And what happened about 10 years ago?

The people from the convention started coming around? ago you you stood the people from the convention started coming around and well what happened was i went to um the jack and jill universal uh luncheon at the sportsman's lodge and i know i know the sportsman's lodge right there in uh sherman oaks right and they uh said oh we've been looking for you forever and i'm going what and they said yeah you were the little girl yeah i was a little girl and and they started talking to me and they said well we've been looking for you forever and I'm going what and they said yeah you were the little girl yeah I was a little girl and they started talking to me and they said well we've been looking for you and I said well I've been around you I didn't know you were looking for me but I went to the Jack and Jill luncheon and then after that I was constantly asked to come to the luncheon and then that's when I started doing signings so how does it feel to know that to this day you have fans like myself who just go, who

know who Janet Ann Gallo is and are major fans? Tell them the truth, Janet. It's a little scary. It is. Because I think, oh, do I really? No, I know people write to me and they'll ask me questions and stuff which is fine i don't mind answering anything but um it is a little scary because you don't know if they really want to talk to you or if they're just doing this for fun or what you know you in today's world it's a different world world than when I was coming up in the business.

So it's a little different. But I have met some wonderful people out there at the conventions back east in New Jersey and in Pennsylvania that are just wonderful people. I mean, they're great. And they come up to me and bring their little kids up to me, and it's really nice. It's really nice. Now, did you work on a movie with Buster Keaton? Yes. Yes, I did.

Wow. I didn't have any big lines in it, but I was in the movie, yes. Something Minds the Baby. What was the name of that, honey? Oh, yeah, we could look it up. Which Minds the Baby, yeah. Did you have any memories of Buster Keaton? Not really, because I only worked on the set just a few times.

I had about four or five scenes, and that was it. But just a few times I had about four or five scenes and that was it. Because Frank and I always laugh about how many guests we've had on this podcast who have worked and known Buster Keaton. Yeah, I think you're the fifth or the sixth one, Janet. Yeah. Well, I met him and everything, but I didn't have any real lines with him in other words I didn't have any scenes with him right and being oh sorry being a former child actress how do you feel when you hear and read these stories about how many child performers just had terrible lives after that. I know, I know. I feel very badly for them. I had a mother that I think even if she had

not died, she would have protected me from a lot of stuff because she was a very strong Catholic woman. And I don't think she would have allowed me to get in with the wrong crowd or anything like that. That's just my own opinion. Well, I have to tell you, Janet, we started, in addition to all the people we've interviewed who knew Buster, Chuck McCann, James Caron, Frankie Avalon we talked to who worked with Buster, was actually a pretty long list.

I think you're the sixth or seventh person. I have to tell you that when we started this podcast, Gilbert and his lovely wife, Dara, and me, what, now almost two years ago, maybe a year and a half ago. And from the very beginning, when we sat down and we started making a guest list, Gilbert was saying, we have to get to Janet Ankello. Your name was on the list from the very beginning, from day one. Oh, that's very sweet. That's very nice of you guys. It's true. Every week, we were trying to look for these different, you know, we've had some big names

on, and I kept saying, no, no, look, we got to get Janet and Gallo. It started to become a runner after a while, Janet. Oh, wow. Well, you know, there's only like one show or one convention I haven't been to yet, and that's the Chiller one. I don't know if you've ever. Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. We did the one in New Jersey last year. Yeah, I haven't been to chiller one. I don't know if you've ever. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, sure. We did the one in New Jersey last year.

Yeah, I haven't been chiller yet. That's the only one. Outside of that, I've been to Monster Madness and all the other ones that, you know, Monster Madness, Monsterpalooza, Monster, gosh, I'm trying to think of all of them. They're all different, and they're all very nice. I mean, they really, really treat you very well. And I got to tell you, it's true when I say I look at you as Julia Roberts and Sandra Bullock. Oh, my goodness.

And I was just telling Ron Chaney, to me, when I watch Ron Chaney Jr. in a movie, I'm a teenage girl watching Justin Bieber. That's pretty neat. Well, Janet, it's a thrill to talk to you finally. It's been, like I said, you're... No, I'm very flattered that you guys wanted to talk to you finally. It's been, like I said. No, I'm very flattered that you guys wanted to talk to me. You don't know how many times when we had meetings to discuss who I kept yelling out, Janet Ann Gallo, get her.

Find out some information. You get her on the show. This fulfills a lifelong dream for gilbert chad yeah see i could die now oh that's sweet well thanks this was on my bucket list so i'll let me just wrap up uh this has been i'm gilbert gottfried this has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. And finally, the star of Ghost of Frankenstein, who worked with Lon Chaney Jr. and Bela Lugosi and Lionel Atwill and Ralph Bellamy and Evelyn Ankers. And Buster Keaton. And Buster Keaton and Abbott and Costello and Chimp from the Three Stooges. Great. Do you remember anything about Chimp before we let you go?

No. Okay. That's fine. that's fine that's fine we have been talking to the great janet and gallo thank you so much janet happy halloween and look us up when you're at the let us know when you're coming to chiller in New Jersey. Okay. Well, when they invite me, I will come. Because we'd love to meet you in person. Okay. And I'd love to meet you guys, too. Thanks again, Janet.

Thank you for doing this show. It was a thrill for me. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.