Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Boris Karloff Tribute Show with Ron MacCloskey, Gregory Mank and Sara Karloff

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

Gilbert and Frank welcome writer-producer RON MacCLOSKEY, author-historian GREGORY MANK and entrepreneur SARA KARLOFF for a celebration of the life and career of screen legend Boris Karloff as well as a discussion about the recently-released 2021 documentary, "Boris Karloff: The Man Behind the Monster." Also in this episode: Bela Lugosi plays matchmaker, Colin Clive battles demons, James Whale abuses his power and Boris predicts stardom for Jack Nicholson! PLUS: "The Girl from Uncle"! "Arsenic and Old Lace"! The shadowy cinema of Val Lewton! Gregory meets The Bride of Frankenstein! Sara shuns "The Black Cat"! And Boris helps found the Screen Actors Guild! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Tastes... uh, hot great! Harmless nut has found a way of making coffee richer without being bitter. You can say that again! Harmless Nut has found a way of making coffee richer without being bitter. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Well, it's our favorite time of the year again, and for our annual Halloween episode this year, we're celebrating the life and career of one of the world's most celebrated performers, the legendary Boris Karloff.

And with a panel discussion about his life and career. And about the newly released 2021 documentary, Boris Karloff, The Man Behind the Monster. And joining Frank and I are not one but three, count them three, Karloff experts associated with the new documentary. Gregory Mank is a journalist, historian, occasional actor, lifelong monster kid, and the author of numerous books, including It's Alive, the classic cinema saga of Frankenstein, One Man Crazy, the life and death of Colin Clive, Bela Lugosi, and Boris Karloff, the expanded story to his 2014 book, The Very Witching Time of Night, Dark Alleys of Classic Horror Cinema. and DVD releases of the classic Karloff films The Mask of Fu Manchu and The Black Cat. And did we mention that Elsa Lanchester herself taught him how to hiss like the Bride of Frankenstein? who hiss like the Bride of Frankenstein.

Ron McCluskey is a writer, producer, and presenter of the long-running series Classic Movies with Ron McCluskey, as well as the curator of Frankenstein artwork, featuring depictions and interpretations of Frankenstein's monster from artists all over the world. He's also the co-writer and one of the executive producers of the new documentary, which he was inspired to work on after receiving the gift of a Frankenstein Aurora model at the tender age of seven. And our returning champion, Sarah Karloff, is a filmmaker, entrepreneur, public speaker, and the only child of Boris Karloff. She's the official keeper of the Karloff flame, having founded Karloff Enterprises back in 1993 to supervise and protect the persona and licensing rights

relating to her famous father. Through the official website Karloff.com, she helps to oversee the marketing and merchandising of her father's likeness as she travels all over the world greeting fans, hosting events, and keeping her father's personal and professional legacy alive. And so, without further ado, Gilbert Portrait's amazing colossal podcast with his co-host Frank Santopadre, I'm happy to introduce the bone-chilling Gregory Bank, the terrifying Ron McCluskey, and most frightening of all, Sarah Karloff. Welcome, all three. Welcome, all three.

Welcome to the show, everyone. Wow, I didn't know that was coming, Gil. Bravo. Beautiful. Oh, my God. When you say Santo Padre, it's like the way the Boris impersonators would say Antipasto. Yes. That was good.

Thank you. Coming from Sarah, that's the ultimate compliment. How about that? It was intended. It was intended to be. Welcome, all, and thank you guys for your patience in setting this up. This is the first episode we're attempting

from four different states. Wow. Oh, and before I forget, Sarah, have you ever met Boris Karloff? Not recently. Sarah was with us before, I think, what, 2015 you were here, Sarah? I think so, yes. You were maybe one of our first 25 guests and they said it wouldn't last and here we are approaching 400 episodes oh my goodness really yeah so welcome back this is a

special occasion and a special uh special episode now well thank you for having me back i must have behaved better then you were great although boris karloff had already been working as a character actor you still i guess going from paycheck to paycheck when a story similar to lana turner in schwab's uh candies of swabs uh drugstore happened to him. And can all three of you say what happened, how he was discovered? Start with you, Sarah. How James Whale found him for the role?

Well, he really wasn't lost, but he had just finished doing Criminal Code, and he was on the lot at Universal and was in the commissary. And as he said, in his best suit and thought he looked really terrific. And James Whale had sent someone over to my father's table and asked him to join him for a cup of coffee. And Mr. Whale asked him if he would like to test for a part of the monster in this Frankenstein film. My father was a bit taken aback since he thought he would look slightly better than a monster that day, but he was delighted to work doing any part because he'd spent the last 10 years in Hollywood when nobody noticed him, and he was delighted to be offered the opportunity to test for or anything. So he went off with Jack Pierce, and he and Jack worked together, I believe,

for two weeks on the makeup. And Jack had made a point of studying anatomy and what somebody would look like if a brain had been implanted in his skull. And Jack said that my father was patient as a horse. And my father said that Jack was an absolute genius makeup man, the best in the business. And after two weeks, they came up with this test makeup, and the rest is cinema history. Let's also just recap, too, for people that don't know, and a lot of people do know this, but how many films under his belt before he became an overnight sensation?

He became an overnight sensation? Well, Frankenstein was his 81st film. 81st film. And my father said hardly anyone had seen the first 80. And so the name Boris Karloff meant nothing, I guess, to the public before Frankenstein. Absolutely. It really meant nothing. And of course, it wasn't his real name.

His real name was William Henry Pratt. He was British. And somewhere along the line, during the first 10 years my father spent in British Columbia doing repertory theater, he changed his name because he felt Pratt would not be a particularly fortunate name up on a marquee, as in Prattfall. But he changed his name, oh, I think in about 1915, when he was up in British Columbia. And when asked where the name Boris Karloff came from, he always said, well, Karloff was somewhere way back in his mother's side of the family, although no biographer or historian has ever found it.

And Boris simply came from thin air. So I'm sticking with his story. Greg, in your book, wonderful book, one of your great books, Bela Lugosi and Boris Karloff book, there is, Sarah tells, I'm wondering if it's the official version of how he was cast, or one version,

because there's speculation that what, that Whale's partner David Lewis had recommended him for the part after seeing Criminal Code? Even Bailiff claimed that he discovered Karloff. Yes, he did. Strangely enough, Lugosi told the story frequently in later years that he was, of course, supposed

to play the monster and that he was very unhappy about it, thought it was an insult to play a role like that, and that Universal said monster and that he was very unhappy about it felt it was an insult to play a role like that and that universal said to him that you know he could he could give it up if he could find an actor to replace him uh and that he went and scattered the agencies and came upon boris karloff and really with with all respect to beta legosi uh that that story just really doesn't have a whole lot of credibility no uh you know at all because that's not the way the studios work they certainly weren't going to say to an actor yeah go out and find somebody else and bring him in and we'll use him uh so um so that was one story and yes you mentioned about david lewis who was the partner of james rail had seen him in the play the criminal code and said you

have to see this actor he's got this tremendous face uh it's just really really incredible and and uh uh you know he has this terrific sense of menace and he would be a wonderful monster. And it's interesting that, as Sarah says, Boris Karloff was by no means a name at that point in 1931. It was fortunate, though, that he was working steadily and that doing one picture after another since the criminal code, again, none of them bringing him stardom, but at least he was working steadily. And he was living at the time in 1931, at the time that Frankenstein came along, he was living in a house in the Hollywood Hills that was at the top of 100 steps. And I actually went and found the house at one point in my crazy way and found the house up.

It was up in Whitley Heights and I didn't have the exact address, but I saw a gate open. It was a Sunday and a realtor was showing this house up there. And so I decided to start walking and I walked up and actually, you know, nerdy fan, counted the steps. all right, as I went up, and sure enough, there were exactly 100 steps, got to the top, there was this little house, and there's a plaque next to the door, and it said, Boris Karloff's home, 1931. And by great luck, the realtor was showing the house that day, and I went in and said, oh, I'm a great Boris Karloff fan, can I see the inside of the house? And she said, oh, knock yourself out. Go right ahead.

And so I looked around. But can you imagine coming back to that house after a day on Frankenstein and having to work in that costume and that makeup and coming home, obviously, late at night after taking all that gear off and having to walk up those 100 steps before you could relax and have a drink and kind of stretch out and then be back at the studio you know four o'clock the next morning to start all over again i mean the man had remarkable endurance he earned every bit of his stardom and and now you you actually interviewed the little girl who the frankenstein monster tosses into the lake. Marilyn Harris.

Yes, Marilyn Harris. And she was lovely. And it was a very sad case. She was a very haunted lady. She had had a terrible mother who had beaten her and tortured her and a very, very tragic Hollywood story. And under the circumstances, you would think the last thing she wanted to be in would be a horror film, working with a monster. But she said that, you know, that she went to the studio the morning they went to the lake. They were going to take them out there in limousines. And she went right up to Boris Karloff in his monster outfit and went

right up and took his hand and said, may I ride with you to the lake? And he said, would you, darling? And she said, oh, please. And so they rode out, and she said they immediately had this bond, this incredible, remarkable bond, almost this mystical bond, and that she felt very comfortable with him, very safe with him, that despite the way he looked, obviously, to be so frightening, that she just fell in love with him. And they worked together very, very charmingly, very sweetly.

And unfortunately, her mother came along for the shooting of the scene. And when Karloff threw Marilyn in the first time, Marilyn's mother was hysterically excited, and she screamed, throw her in again, throw her in again. So she really had a very, very sad life, but she loved Boris Karloff all her life. And I believe it's very interesting that Sarah and Marilyn's son went out there, right, Sarah, to the lake, that site? That's right. Went out there, right, Sarah, to the lake, that site?

That's right. Just out of the blue, I got an email from Marilyn's son, and he wanted to be able to do something with her memorabilia, and he contacted me. And it was just so fortuitous because he contacted me just days before this shoot had been arranged out at the lake. And so I said, oh, my goodness, yes, you've got to. I mean, I didn't know where he lived or anything. Turned out he lived in Arizona.

And so it was possible for him to come to the shoot. I contacted the people who were going to do the shoot. for him to come to the shoot. I contacted the people who were going to do the shoot, and they were, of course, just over the moon that he had just come out of the bushes, so to speak, and he was available and could make it to the shoot. And he's the nicest man. And there also was a show called Monsterpalooza that same weekend.

And he was able to attend that and meet fans of his mother's and discuss with people his mother and his mother's career and show the scrapbook and everything he'd made and recordings of interviews he'd done with her. And it just, it was absolutely magical. And they took photographs of the two of us and floating daisies. And I said, don't you dare throw me in, don't even think about throwing me in the lake. throw me in don't even think about throwing me in the lake but i mean it was just it was just as it just so unheard of such a coincidence getting this email totally out of the blue i never heard of him never knew his name before and we've stayed in contact he's just the loveliest

of men oh that's great and you know it's just the loveliest of men. Oh, that's great. He was just so fortuitous for everybody involved. Great. Gil, I have to point out something before we go, before we move on. This is something that I talked about with Greg last night. This is relevant to the conversation. Greg, what were the dates that the lake scenes were shot with Marilyn Harris?

They were September 28th and September 29th of 1931. So 90 years ago today. That's right. Holy God. Okay, I'm going to go kill myself now. Oh, don't. Just wait. So today is a famous anniversary.

It is. a famous anniversary. It is. And what's interesting is Marilyn Harris's love of Karloff as the monster is similar to then years later,

former podcast guest Janet Ann Gallo was the little girl in Ghost of Frankenstein and she loved Lon Chaney Jr. as the monster. Yeah, that's a fun connection. Yeah, we had Janet. Rest in peace, Janet Ann. We had her here a couple of years ago. Ron, in the documentary, Gilbert brings up the lake scene, and it's in the doc.

Now, I assume you can't make a documentary about Karloff without including that story, because it's such an important part of his history. Oh, sure. First of all, let me say, Gilbert, thank you for having us. I mean, this is great. You know, to be able to sit here and talk about Boris Karloff and Frankenstein, and you're not only an incredibly funny man, but you know your stuff. You know Universal Monsters. He does. Yeah. So that's great to know. I was a pathetic kid. Yeah. Yeah. yeah now did you grow up on the east coast like i did where you had zacherly as the host of zacherly yeah sure uh yeah all those things yeah i've just great stuff as a kid growing up i actually had a monster club

you know with a bunch of my friends and we used to meet every week and then of course they matured and got older but i never did i kept collecting monster stuff and i have everything that i had as a little kid do you still have any of the models i i don't have them but i i used to make the aurora models right and i'd read famous monsters of film land right i remember when I was little, I saw in the paper that Boris Karloff had died. And immediately I said, that's Glenn Strange. Oh, they ran the wrong photo. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, they did. And just recently, last night, I watched a different documentary on Karloff, and they showed one Glenn Strange picture and another time Lugosi as the monster. Right, yeah. Wow. Let me answer Frank's question, but before I do, Gilbert, before he died, I heard that he was in the hospital and he was sick. So as a fan, I was 13 years old, I wrote him a letter saying,

I hope you get well. And I couldn't believe it, but I got a note back. It had a postmark from Los Angeles. I opened it up. It's from Boris Karloff. And he said, I'm fully recovered and back to work. Thank you. And he autographed it.

I kept the card and the envelope. And unfortunately, it was dated october of 68 and then he died in february of 69 so only four months afterward but i treasure that that's what my friend of mine met karloff and uh he gave him his address and he asked if Karloff could send him an autographed picture. And he received the autograph one day after Karloff had died. And I thought, isn't that the ideal way to get a Boris Karloff autograph right there? Right. Speaking of address, Karloff lived at the famous Dakota. Yes, I learned that in Greg's book.

I did not know that either. I learned so much. Right. So let me get to the lake scene. So you're absolutely right. It was a scene that was very controversial. Boris Karloff, as the actor, felt it didn't belong in the film. Whale wanted it to be in the film.

And eventually, Boris was right. When they screened the film, they had to be in the film um and eventually boris was right uh when they screened the film they had to take that out they also had to take out a line when colin clive says uh my god now i know what it feels like to be god because again that was too controversial that they took out but years later they they put back the scene in and they put back the line in as well. But it was very controversial. Well, I thought the editing that Universal did made it worse. Because in the real scene, Karloff is confused and he sees the flowers are floating in the lake. And he he assumes she'll float. So he tosses her in. And then he looks like a frightened kid running off that he's done something wrong. And with the editing, it goes right from Karloff and the girl throwing flowers in the lake

to the father carrying his daughter's lifeless body in the village. Right. Right. Right. But as an actor, I think that scene where Karloff shows that frightening look. It's wonderful. He was not aware. That is really one of those key scenes where that really showed the humanity of Karloff. Well, it showed that the monster's a little kid who doesn't know what he's doing.

Right. Greg, what happened after that? We talked about how he dared to confront or challenge Whale on that. He thought that the monster should not be throwing the little girl in the water, that it was wrong for the scene. And I understand the crew more or less sided with Boris, and then there was a price to pay? crew more or less sided with Boris and then there was a price to pay? Exactly. They had to come back to the studio that night and Whale announced that there would be night shooting. They were going to go out on the back lot and shoot the scene where the monster runs up the hill to the windmill with Frankenstein over his shoulder. So they went back there and Whale had Karloff run up the hill with Colin Clive over his shoulder over and over

and over and over again all night and doing it over and again and he had to run up the hill to get away from the bloodhounds and the villagers with their torches and it was a terrible you know terrible spiteful thing for whale to do and as Sarah will know and as Ron knows, Boris had severe back trouble during his lifetime and that certainly didn't help. That was a horrible thing for Whale to have done. And it was, I think Whale was kind of losing it a little bit by the end of that picture. It was funny, he said he wanted everybody in that film to have insane passion, as he put it. He wanted Frankenstein to have insane passion. He wanted that film to have insane passion, as he put it. He wanted Frankenstein to have insane passion.

He wanted the monster to have insane passion. I think Whale had some insane passion by the time it was over. And to have done something like that to Karloff was just inexcusable. And he got away with it at Universal. If that happened at MGM or Warner Brothers, Jack Warner at Warner's or Louis B. Mayer at MGM would be down there and wring Whale's neck for having endangered an actor. But Universal, it got by. And any of you who want to answer this, it always seemed, of everything I read, that James Whale, you know, looked down on Karloff.

Which is ironic because Whale came actually from a rather poor background. And you could really kind of say that Whale sort of created himself. The way Frankenstein created a monster, Whale kind of created himself. He became this very elegant, sardonic, you know, patrician personality in Hollywood. Like he was almost like an aristocratic Englishman. And he gave off this image that that was what he was. That was where he was from. aristocratic Englishman and he gave off this image that that was what he was, that was where he was from. Whereas Boris Karloff, who came from, you know, a very, a higher element of society,

shall we say, than Whale did, never put on airs, certainly about it in Hollywood. And so it was a rather strange way for whale to look at things considering that, you know, his own background was, was one of a rather humble beginnings. And one thing that I, every time I watch Frankenstein, I always think if,

if I had ownership of this movie, I'd cut it out. And I think it may have been Robert Fl flory's idea and that was the criminal brain yeah that was sort of a mickey mouse kind of thing to put in there because like as it was a shortcut for them to make the monster dangerous they'll say well we'll give him a criminal brain and that'll that'll scare the audience and kind of put them on the edge of their seat what's he going to do now that he has a you know with this criminal brain in his head? But he certainly doesn't behave as if he's a criminal. He behaves, as we said earlier, he's bewildered, he's lost, he's confused,

he's all these things, but he's certainly not a criminal. He's certainly not evil. So yeah, I think that's a good point you make, Gilbert, about that. That probably could have gone. Sarah, was that the source you think of his back problems? And did his relationship with Whale improve at any point after that? Or was it forever soured? I think it was. Because they worked together twice more, obviously, on The Bride and on Old Dark House.

I think that my father recognized what Whale was doing and why he was doing it. He'd been challenged openly by, at that point, a bit part player. And nobody had anticipated, one, the success of the film, and everybody had anticipated that Colin Clive, in whom Whale had an interesting interest, they all anticipated that he would be the star of the film. So there was resentment on the part of Whale. And my father understood what Whale whale was doing paying him back for

challenging him he regarded my father as a bit of an upstart um except there are there are uh photographs of the two of them um having a smoke leaning against a railing there at the lake. And there are shots of them having tea, et cetera. But my father, as we said earlier, was just so grateful to be working in a film. And nobody recognized the import of this film and the impact it would have on cinema history or anything. So it was just part of a day's work as far as my father was concerned.

But he recognized what Whale was doing. I think it also had to do with jealousy and with ego. I mean, here, Whale was a celebrated director. He had done Journey's End in England. He was very well received. He comes over here. They literally say to him, pick any script you want. You don't get that too often.

Do whatever you want. And he chose Frankenstein. And then when I think he saw Karloff getting all the attention, I mean, he even said, don't get that too often. Do whatever you want. And he chose Frankenstein. And then when I think he saw Karloff getting all the attention, I mean, he even said, oh, he's just a truck driver. Now, at one time, Boris actually did do that in between acting jobs, but I think he thought that Clive, and I think he, James Whale,

would have been elevated from that film, and they weren't. Did any of this factor into him not being, and I'm purely speculating here, because I've always wondered, any of this factor into him not being invited to the preview or the premiere? Or do you believe it was just strictly an oversight? Because it's rather outrageous. Because there are question marks in the listings at the end. Oh, I think that was on purpose.

The question marks was to elevate everybody's curiosity as to who and what the monster was. I think that was a promotional thing. He got credit in the enrolling credits. He was given credit. credits. He was given credit. I think, actually, I think that my father was a nobody when that film was made. And so I just think that it was an oversight. He wasn't invited to the premiere. I see. I don't think it was delivered. I really don't. If we could get to Dr. Frankenstein for just a second, Colin Clive looks like he was a very troubled person. He had an awful lot of baggage, the poor man.

He really did. He had some severe hangups. By the time that he did Frankenstein, he was already a severe alcoholic. He was only 31 years old. He had family issues. He was heartbroken because his whole life he had, well, his whole early life, he had wanted to be a Bengal Lancer because his ancestry were all these British soldiers who had served in India. And he grew up with the complete intention of becoming a Bengal Lancer. And he went to the Royal Military Academy in England and was only there a few months.

And there was a horse fall and he broke his knee. So that was the end of that. He drifted into the theater and he really had a fascination with it. But he had terrible stage fright, which, of course, many actors have. But with him, it was just, you know, incredibly severe stage fright. So he was making his living in a career that scared him to get up every day to go in every night to the theater and to stand in front of a camera. every night to the theater and to stand in front of a camera. And so it was one of those cases where he was brilliant at what he did,

but he was so very, very unhappy doing it. And lots and lots of hangups. In the biography that I did recently of him, I go into detail about some of the discoveries I found that were really pretty shocking about his uh about his young life that kind of uh you know pushed him over the brink when when did he die was he 36 37 it was it was in 1937 and he was only 37 years old yeah yeah yeah oh there's always you hear a lot of talk about the rivalry and animosity between karloff and Lugosi. So what's the truth to that? Bela Jr. and I have talked about that.

And Bela being Hungarian and my father being British, they quite naturally had their own personal interests. their own personal interests. And so it is not unusual that when they were not working together, their off-camera or offset time was spent doing different things. And today, when actors work together, long hours together, sometimes months together on a film, it's not unusual that their offset time is spent doing different things, not seeing one another.

And when a film is completed, it's not in the least unusual for actors not to socialize together. for actors not to socialize together. So the fact that Bela and my dad did not socialize together was not indicative of some personal animosity or personal rivalry. I know that my father had a very high regard for Bela as an actor, but he did feel that it was unfortunate that he did not master the English language more than he did, which was the language in which he earned his bread and butter. But he felt he was a very highly trained and very good actor. And there's a quote Boris Karloff once said,

poor Bela, he deserved more than he got. Well, I'm sure that's true. He felt that he was a fine actor, but the one thing that held him back was that he did not, his English, he really never mastered the English language. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast after this. Winning, which beats even the 27th best feeling, saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Enjoy the number one feeling, winning, in an exciting live dealer studio,

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Live original. Please enjoy our products responsibly. Ron, tell me about setting out, because we're here to really promote the documentary. Tell me about what inspired this project, and tell me the thing that you learned, since you knew a lot about Karloff going into it. What was the biggest surprise? Well, the thing that just fascinated about me, and I believe I told this to Sarah the very first time I met her, is the wealth of work that this man did. Yeah, he was in Frankenstein and horror films, but he just loved to work and did so many things, Broadway and radio

and television. He was nominated for a Tony, won the Grammy. It was just fascinating to dig even deeper into his films. And the thing that surprised me were movies like The Black Room and The Body Snatcher. Great one. Just wonderful. In fact, somebody, I think David Scull says in our documentary that he should have been nominated for an Oscar for The Black Room because of what he did.

He played three parts. He played twin brothers. He played the good brother and the evil brother. But then he played the evil brother playing the good brother. Gilbert, do you know this film at all the black it sounds like one of those films i saw when i was a kid but haven't seen it recently what about the body snatch oh yeah he knows that one yes and and they brought back uh bail off for that one and that was a correct wonderful scene between karloff and baila

oh just wonderful. It was directed by Robert Wise. Robert Wise had an amazing career, but that was his first film, and the body's not, and of course it was done for producer Val Luton, and Val Luton just did some great films like The Cat People, whatever. Greg, you know about

Val Luton and his career, right? Oh, yes. He was a brilliant man, and he brought a very sophisticated, very dark, very sexy vibe to the horror films in the 40s. And Karloff just loved working with him. He thought he was very original. He thought that he was very subtle. They had the same kind of sense of humor.

It's interesting that in The Body Snatcher, for example, Karloff is at times rather funny. He has a great sense of humor. It's interesting that in The Body Snatcher, for example, Karloff is at times rather funny. He has a great sense of humor, and his character really kind of makes you laugh. He's almost, you know, you're expecting him to go into a dance at certain times. I mean, he's really just amazing, and that performance really did deserve an Academy Award. And so, yeah, he and Luton were a great mutual admiration society. You also said, Greg, in your book, we was talking about Gilbert's question about the relationship between Bela and Boris, and you said they never seemed to be closer than they were during Son of Frankenstein.

Yes, and it's interesting because there was a very good reason for that. For one thing they were playing friends if you will the monster and igor all right and uh you know the monster finally has a real friend in son of frankenstein he has beta legosi's igor and the two of them are just great they just have this marvelous wonderful chemistry together that's there but also it's legosi's finest hour yeah he is he is terrific. But actually, earlier that year, that was late 1938, earlier that year, Bela Jr. had been born. And of course, we'll let Sarah talk about the event that happened during Son of Frankenstein that made her father and Karloff,

who made Karloff and Lugosi even closer. Well, I was born on my father's 51st birthday, and it was the most expensive birthday present he ever got. It's sweet, because Bela Jr. was 10 months old at that point, and you're writing about it in the book, and it's nice to read that they have this thing in common, that they're sharing. And Bale is buying him a baby gift, and it's nice to read about that,

that they made that connection. Yeah, they're both going home to babies after a day's work on Son of Frankenstein. And Lugosi got quite emotional about it a short time later. He said, yes, he said, Boris and I often get together and talk about how wonderful it would be if our children met and married one another one day. So I don't know if you ever talked about that with Bela Jr., Sarah, but his father was kind of pining for that at one

point. We're friends. We're friends. Bela Jr. and I are good friends. And I saw something in one of the documentaries that when Karloff was doing, oh, The Raven, the one with Roger. Roger Corman. Roger Corman. That Boris Karloff came home and said to his wife at the time, I don't know if that was... It was my stepmother. Yes. And he said to her, there's a young man in this picture.

Could you tell us who? Jack Nicholson. He said, there's a young man in this film that's going to really amount to something. And my father spotted Jack Nicholson and said he's really going to amount to something someday. Wow, he had an eye for talent, too. Was he right on that one? He really was. There is a real short documentary on the making of The Shining.

And I'd never seen this before before but they interviewed nicholson and in his brief interview he's talking about i take my script and i mark it up and i learned that from boris karloff because that's what he used to do so yeah he clearly acknowledged that in this documentary and boris karloff heard, was the one, was teaching Frank Sinatra how to act. That's right. He helped Frank, well, Frank marked his scripts, as my father did, and he helped him with one of his films, too. And I think he said to Frank Sinatra, you sing with your voice, you have to learn how to act with your voice.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's true. You know, Sarah, reading the material, doing the research, the word that pops out at me about your dad is trooper. You know? that pops out at me about your dad is Trooper. You know, not only did he not confront Whale about his bad behavior and other directors,

but the makeup, the endurance, the physical stress that he went through. It brings me, I want to ask you about the mummy. And I didn't know, and specifically the makeup, Pierce's makeup for the mummy. I mean, we know about how he suffered in the frankenstein makeup but i didn't know that the uh the artith bay makeup had to be melted off his face yes and and the um imhotep um makeup which which he was in for just that one shoot, was horrendously difficult. I can imagine. And at the end of that shooting day, he passed out, just collapsed on the set

because he was completely dehydrated. The gauze wrapping had just absorbed all his bodily fluids. wrapping had just absorbed all his bodily fluids. When they completed the preparation of the wrapping, he pointed out to them that they had neglected to put in a fly. Oh! And so they did have to rectify that. But then by the end of the day, I think it was a very, very long shooting day. And he just collapsed from total dehydration.

And I heard Karloff. Well, this could be a total bull story. I hope it's true that when you were born, he rushed to the hospital in his Frankenstein makeup. No. I'm sorry. I thought it sounded too good to be true. It's too good to be true. It's still on Wikipedia, so somebody needs to take it down.

There's a fairly well-known photograph of my father at the hospital with a nurse holding me, and my father dressed rather smartly in one of his sports coats looking at me. I think thinking, oh, my God, what have I done? But trying to look adoringly at me, but a nurse holding me at the hospital the day I was born, and he was not in his makeup. Sarah, I asked you this last time, I'm sure, so forgive me, but how old were you when it dawned on you, and I'm sure you've been asked this, how old were you and how did you find out,

how did it start to dawn on you who your father was? You know, he was my father. And he didn't bring his work home. He was very modest and very self-effacing and very funny. And our home life was very quiet and reserved. And he loved gardening. He loved reading, he loved animals. And he once, by the time I was born, he was making his third Frankenstein film. He was an established star, and he could leave his work at the studio. And so he didn't talk about his work at home. What are you going to say to a five-year-old child about your career,

especially if the genre is the horror genre? Nothing. So it wasn't until I was actually, he was noticed in restaurants, but how many places do you take a young child? My parents were divorced when I was seven. And so in school, in Beverly Hills, a famous name didn't stick out that much. Not that much. And I went to a Miss Buckley's private kindergarten and nursery school or whatever. And I'm sure all of you know who C. Aubrey Smith was.

Sure. And Lady Smith used to babysit me after school some days. And so it was a rather cloistered life, if you like. And they were just friends, everybody, some were famous people, but they were just friends of my father's, friends of my family. And so there was no... I didn't go to movies when I was young, that young. And by the time my parents were divorced

and each remarried very happily and successfully. And my mother moved to San Francisco with my stepfather, whom I adored. Then my name name received. But growing up in a household with my father, except when we went to restaurants, there wasn't much notice taken. I mean, he was so recognizable, and his voice was so recognizable, but people minded their manners better then. I can remember later in life, still growing up though, it was an experience to ride on an elevator with him because people didn't know whether or not to mind their manners

in an elevator or take advantage of the situation. But by and large, I mean, there was a lot of elbow nudging going on in the elevator. But it wasn't until we actually left the elevator that they were pointing and saying, that was Boris Karloff, that was Boris Karloff. But people minded their manners. And so the degree of his fame and the degree of his recognizability

was not really invasive like it would be now, especially now if he came back. like it would be now, especially now if he came back. But I was 19 years old and sitting in my mother and stepfather's living room watching television when I watched Frankenstein for the first time. Interesting. I mean, it just didn't permeate my life, his fame. He never talked about his career. When I'd go and visit my father and stepmother,

you know, we did, I mean, I can remember him taking me to the circus, or I could remember him taking me to things he thought I would enjoy, he took me to a football game one time. I can assure you that people for five rows around us couldn't tell you anything about the football game because they were too busy looking at him. One day, my mother went to play bridge and left me in the care of my father. And he'd been shooting Tower of London, where he had less hair than Gilbert does at the moment. And I'm doing my best to offend you, Gilbert.

And so he thought it would be a good idea to take. I was about, I don't know, three years old, four years old. And so he thought it would be a good idea to take me out and have my head shaved. My mother didn't think that was a good idea when she came home to her little girl with a shaved head. No wonder they got divorced when I was seven. However, she didn't leave me in his care very often thereafter. I was left with a governess. There you go.

Of the three top horror stars at that time period, it was like Lugosi, Lon Chaney Jr., and Karloff. And Karloff seemed to be the one wrestling with the least amount of demons. He seemed the most level-headed mentally and emotionally. He was very level-headed. He didn't have a fuzzy childhood because his parents died when he was rather young, and he was the youngest of nine children. And he had seven brothers and one sister. seven brothers and one sister,

and he was supposed to go into the counselor service, diplomatic corps, which he had no intention of doing. And so I think he faced his demons early on and made his decisions early on to go into the film business, and left home and went all the way to America, actually to British Columbia first for 10 years, and paid his dues in repertory theater, and then made his way down to, eventually, to Hollywood. and then made his way down to eventually to Hollywood. So he paid his dues, but he was in a career, a profession that he loved,

no matter the hardships or the disappointments. And he stuck with it, and he really felt he was the luckiest man alive to be able to spend his life doing something he loved doing and then be jolly well paid for it. So I don't think he had any real demons, certainly not in his later years. He had no bad habits. I mean, he didn't have any excesses in his life. He didn't have a drinking problem.

He didn't have any drugs. He simply didn't have any excesses. He lived a very quiet, modest life and never got caught up in being a star or into awards. And I think it was his English background and his English upbringing that stayed with him all his life and why in his later years he spent the last, he went back to England and lived the last 10 years of his life. He was typically British. What were you going to add, Ron? The other difference between the other two,

Gilbert, that you brought up, Lugosi and Cheney Jr., is, in my opinion, Karloff loved to work, and he succeeded after his success. And as you know, that doesn't happen a lot. Some people get a success, and then nothing happens. But Boris, he loved to challenge himself. He loved doing different things, and everything he did, he was wonderful in. So from film, he then went to radio, and then he went to Broadway with Arsenic and Old Lace. And I think the work kept him busy. I mean, they say, you know, when you sit around, you have

idle time, that's when the bad habits pick up. But he kept working, and he loved it. And let me say one more thing, too, about what a wonderful man this is, as far as being an actor. He was one of the founders of the Screen Actors Guild. Yes. And he knew and he remembered what it was like in the beginning of his career. And he knew how people were treated. I mean, believe it or not, when he made Frankenstein and he would sit in that makeup chair for 45 hours, he was not paid. He was not paid until you stepped foot on the set.

Well, he made sure that that would change, that people were not treated like that. And he really made a difference. And I think that's one of the best things about being Boris Karloff and founding the Actors Guild. Right, Sarah? Oh, yeah. He was very proud of that. His card number was number nine. Number nine. And he never talked about it, but I know that was one of the things he was most pleased about being involved with.

Greg, was that, what Ron alludes to, him being one of the founders, he witnessed a lot of bad behavior on sets. Certainly, we talked about Wales' misbehavior, but certainly Edgar Ulmer's misbehavior on the set of The Black Cat and Carl Freund's too. Was the mistreatment of actors one of the things that was motivating

him? I'm sure it was. I think he had a very liberal spirit as far as in general and a lot of compassion. But he did see some horrible things happening in Hollywood in those early years. It alluded to uh in the documentary as you do johan being treated so badly uh in the mummy um and uh having spoken with her she said you know the one thing and this was very often the case uh when you talk to people who worked with him and she said the thing that

really saved the movie for me was working with borisloff, because he was so nice and so sweet and such a gentleman. And it was a pleasure to come to work every day, despite Karl Freund, because I know I'd be working with Boris Karloff. So there was that. And you mentioned about Lucille Lund. Yes, that she was very terribly tortured and sexually harassed on The Black Cat. Now, neither Karloff nor Lugosi were aware of this. This was kind of done, you know, secretly. And they weren't aware of it. I don't know if they were ever aware of it. But if they had been, you can bet that they both would have really,

both Karloff and Lugosi, would have really put their foot down and insisted that that would stop. Yeah, he was not going to stand for that. He was a very, very compassionate person. And, you know, something else to mention that we were getting at a little earlier, and that is that one of the reasons I think that he was so content and happy is that I think he realized how appreciated, how really deeply appreciated he was by by his peers uh it's it was it was really kind of funny and and and and something i really enjoyed uh in talking with people who worked with him in the early years is

that a lot of the actresses who worked with him in the early and mid 30s really seemed to have a little crush on him um you know that was more than just oh he was such a nice man it was like oh you know it was he was such a nice man i mean okay, okay. I mean, it was a, I don't mean that there was anything, you know, not platonic happening, but, you know, they really kind of developed a little crush on him. On the Black Cat, both Jacqueline Wells and Lucille Lund, who I talked to, said, you know, that they were so unhappy in that film because it was so morbid and it was so awful and it had necrophilia in it and it had a black mass in it and it had all these, you know, corpses hanging in glass cases in it and all this sort of thing that they had to live with every day.

But she said he, but Lucille Lund, for example, said he was so funny. And he sang her songs. And he was so high spirited on the set, just so nice that, you know, he got her through it. Same with Jacqueline Wells. She was so frightened just going to work every day to be in that picture. And she said she got to know Boris and he made the time fly by and she just loved him so much. Valerie Hobson, who was in Bride of Frankenstein, same thing. She was only 17 years old at the time. And she said, here I was, a stranger in a strange land in Hollywood and on

Frankenstein, there he was in this magnificent monster costume and makeup and everything. And yet he was the one that really made me feel at home. He was the one that really made me feel happy and secure and who I look forward to seeing every day on the set. And he just was such a wonderful man. And Francis Drake, who was in The Invisible Ray with him, she really flipped over him. She said, oh, he had the most beautiful eyes, the most beautiful brown eyes you could drown. She said very dramatically. Now, Sarah, you have the same dark brown eyes, right? Not quite the same.

Greg, reading the books, he seems very protective of his fellow actors. Oh, yes. Gilbert, we've talked in the past about how May Clark was scared in Frankenstein, so he would wiggle the pinky. Yes, yes. I was just going to mention that one. Yeah, that she was afraid she'd faint during that scene. So he had a thing that he waved his pinky around like, it's just me, Boris. That's right. It was upstage hand hand so the camera wouldn't pick it up and um yeah and i know her too she was just a god over him so all these all

these actors just just they responded to him you know not just that he was a nice man but it was a very attractive man that he had you know had these beautiful eyes these beautiful manners there's all this charm uh he was so funny uh you know they just loved working with him and you know you could you could tell that uh you know it was really a high point in their career to have been a leading lady for boris karloff but those stories continued throughout his entire career even uh julie harris yes just adored him and lee grant had just wonderful things to say about boris karloff and so did did Stephanie Powers. That's right, yes. Yes, when he was, what was the name of the-

Mother Muffin. Yes. Mother Muffin. He was in full dress. He told the story on himself that when they finished the makeup and he looked up in the mirror, he said, I look like a two-bit whore. in the mirror he said i look like a two-bit whore and he became the victim like a lot of people who are pounced on on that show of this is your life that's a great clip it's in the doc well he had he had uh he and ralph and and barbara and my stepmother were really good friends,

and they often watched the show, and then they'd go out to dinner afterwards. And he had gotten Ralph to promise that he would never, ever make him the subject of the show. And I don't know if Ralph got my stepmother to agree to it or if my stepmother got Ralph to agree to doing the show. But whoever it was, really, my father said later that Evie, my stepmother, had sold him out for a washer and dryer. Wow. He looked even less happy than Sid Caesar in the parody sketch on your show of shows. Yeah, but you know, the thing is, though, but Ralph was, I think Ralph was so smart, Ralph Edwards. He had bars and Evie sit in the audience prior to that.

In the wings. Right. No, no, no. But there's one episode, Sarah, where they're in the audience. And they think they're going to Boris, but it wasn't. They went two rows back, and they honored somebody else. So maybe Boris thought, okay, we're going to do this again. It's not me. It's somebody else. Well, my father thought he was being introduced.

He waved. Right, right. But then when he realized that face. Right. But then when he realized that face. The ultimate you bet your life was when they had Luke Costello on. That's tragic. And he says this next part like a game show host. You know, like, you've won a million dollars.

And he goes, and at this date, the worst thing that could happen to any man, the death of his son. And it was. Oh, boy, yeah. Talk about horror movies. Yeah. But he does, Boris does brighten up considerably when Jack Pierce walks out. Yes, no. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, yes. He seemed genuinely happy to see him. Oh, yes. And the cricketer. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. You seem genuinely happy to see him. Oh, yes. And the cricketer. Yeah. Yeah, he goes. The cricketer and Jack Pierce and the man from Anchorage last night. Frank Brink.

Those three people. And his school chum. Right. His old school chum. I remember. Those were gems. He says, greatest makeup man in the world. I owe him a lot.

Right. Yes. You know, I thought I knew a lot about Karloff, and I thought I knew a lot about Jack Pierce. I think until I saw the doc and Greg read your book that I didn't realize how instrumental Boris was in, collaboratively speaking, in creating that makeup. was in in collaboratively speaking and creating that makeup yes and particularly about the eyes uh that uh you know that he wanted the the eyes veiled with this kind of what they call lizard eyelids because he didn't want the monster to look too aware you know he wanted to look sort of like you know he was just really starting to discover the world and so the eyes couldn't look too bright the eyes couldn't look too uh you know conscious of what was going on and so that he

was particularly uh inventive with that and um you know again one of the really great things about that movie is is that introduction that of course everybody always talks about when the monster comes in and he comes in backwards and turns around and looks at the screen and of course you know he's a monster he has his electrodes in his neck and he's got all this incredible makeup. But he has beautiful eyes. And he has almost Greta Garbo eyes. And it's such an uncanny thing that it makes it all the more scary. I think our friend David Scull makes a great point in the documentary that because of Boris's bone structure, it's that that suits the look and the makeup so well that he makes the point that no other actor that put on the makeup ever looked quite as as quite as

convincing quite as good no not at all not at all and didn't i heard another story that in the back of his mouth uh karloff had like uh dentures and he he removed them to make a more skull-like face. Yeah, they filled in that little beauty mark on his cheek on the one side that kind of hollowed it out. He took out a bridge. He took out a partial bridge and that created an indentation. But he had a partial bridge that he took out. But when you think about that makeup,

the camera doesn't lie, as we all know today. And that makeup had to be exact every single day. It had to be exactly the same. That speaks to the genius of Jack Pierce. And, Karloff, another thing where the British background comes in, there are photos of it, of him in full Frankenstein makeup sipping a teacup. And he would always have a tea break during the movie. Right. As a matter of fact, they made a special board where he could lay back because of the costume and the makeup, where he could lay back and have a cigarette and a cup of tea because they were afraid of something happening to the costume. The pictures are in Greg's book.

We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast, but first a word from our sponsor. Let me ask a question from a listener of you guys. This is from Jean Beretta. Can anyone talk about Boris's experience with Bogdanovich, who was also here, in one of my favorite films, and that's Targets? That was a project he was particularly proud of. Greg, can you speak about Targets? It's a wonderful, it's not his last film, but it probably should be. It was a beautiful send-off. And although he's not technically playing himself, he sort of emotionally and spiritually is.

And Bogdanovich understood the whole Karloff persona. He was able to build the film around him. This wonderful contrast between an old, tired horror movie star from the golden age of Hollywood and the real-life horror of a sniper in the late 1960s. The film was just brilliant. And I know that Karloff was very, very proud of it. And I'm so glad that, Ron, in the documentary, that you showed that marvelous extended take. It's great. In which Karloff tells that story. I mean, that's just, that is just mesmerizing.

And it was like two in the morning when he really should have been flagging. Yeah. Yeah. And one take and right through and it's a magical film. And it's just wonderful that he had that at the end of his life to be so proud of. Yeah, the story is called The Appointment in Samara is the name of the story that he tells in Targets. And also let me point out that Boris loved to work with young people. Bogdanovich wasn't the only one.

So he always loved to hear new ideas and new thoughts and work with young actors and Bogdanovich wasn't the only one. So he always loved to hear new ideas and new thoughts and work with young actors and directors and writers. So he really did love to introduce new people and work with new people. I just have to bring up the black cat. Yeah, we talk about that a lot.

We've done almost four. He's obsessed with the black cat. We're obsessed with it on this show. We've done almost 400 episodes, as I mentioned to Sarah earlier, and it's come up on this show. We've done almost 400 episodes, as I mentioned to Sarah earlier, and it's come up on this show, what, 30, 40 times, Gilbert? Sarah, I know you didn't see Frankenstein until you said you were a teenager. Can you recall your initial reaction to that one?

To the black cat? Oh, yes. I was an adult. Well, if I ever was. And a mutual friend of, I think, you know him, Greg, Ron Borst. Yes. Came out to the desert and said, Sarah, you have to see this film. I mean, it's one of your father's best-known films.

And one of the worst-kept secrets is I don't like scary movies. That's part of why I brought it up. I know. I know. Yes. Thank you. And so this friend brought it out to the desert and said, now, sir, you have to watch this.

And, of course, I didn't want to. And so we left all the lights on. It was in the afternoon. And it took, he had to come and retrieve me from the hall three times. Wow. And I've never forgiven him. I mean, he's an ex-friend. And I've, yeah, I've seen it.

Thanks a lot. I've seen it now several times. Each time, I like it less and less because it's abhorrent. It has some real, I don't know how it ever got past the censors. Yeah, it's a mystery. There were no censors. There was no code. It's distasteful.

It's brilliant. I don't like watching my father about to be skinned alive, you know, even up on the big screen. Even if Bela mispronounces how he's going to skin him alive. You know what I'm going to do to you now, Val? I'm going to tear the skin from your body, bit by bit. I guess he was trying to say tear, right, Greg? I think so. Frank, do you have a favorite line from the Black Cat French?

There are so many. Yes. There are so many. Really? Oh, yeah. There's that line where David Manners says, oh, that sounds like a lot of supernatural bologna. Oh, that sounds like a lot of supernatural baloney. And he goes, supernatural perhaps, baloney perhaps not.

My favorite one is when he says. Who wrote that? Venus, even the phone is dead. Yeah. I always thought it was a black comedy, but maybe I missed. Maybe that's just me. Maybe it is. And we're going to play a game. Oh, yes.

A game of death, if you'd like. How did it get past the Breen office, Greg? Sarah makes an excellent point because it offends on so many levels, and it's 1934. I think Joseph Breen actually thought anybody who goes to see this film deserves everything they get. It gives them nightmares. They deserve them. They should know better to even go to such a movie. He figured, I'm just going to

wash my hands of this, and you guys want to go on making this kind of awful picture. Plus, I think some of it might have gone over his head. I'm not sure if he really understood some of the really sick things that were in there. And probably, I imagine Universal also did a little double talk with him. I mean, the Black Mass, my favorite lines in the movie are when Carlos reciting the prayers in the Black Mass, that he's reciting all that Latin.

And when you sit down and translate the Latin, the Latin all is gibberish. You know, he's in the con grano sales, which means with a grain of salt. And, you know, these other lines he said. I'm telling you, it's a comedy. It is a real trip. And so I think that, really, I think Breen just figured, I mean, when he read the script, he came back with like 30 things that they needed to cut. And Universal sent him back the script, and it had taken out like two of them. All right?

Universal sent them back the script and had taken out like two of them. And I think Breen figured, okay, if you want to do something like this, you want to play this game, let this movie blow up in your face. Let you deal with all the problems from the censors. Let you deal with all the fallout.

And maybe you'll learn a lesson. Stop making movies like this. But yeah, it really is. It's tremendous. I'm also very glad they used in the documentary the Carlos wonderful line about he has an intense and all-consuming horror of cats. And he has that, he uses his lisp so beautifully on that word cats. You know, he lets the S. Oh, yeah.

The funny thing there is they call it the black cat. It has absolutely nothing to do with the post story. They threw that out early. Yes. So they threw in that quick part. He has a fear of black cats. And they never mentioned it again. Well, Ulmer is making a story about a satanist based on alistair crowley

is he not greg yes he is and i think what he had in his mind was this great magnificent story about the modern incarnation of lucifer who was boris karloff fighting out with his avenging angel who was beta lugosi and um you know i and i think that uh junior lemley the producer allowed him to do it because junior was fighting with his father carl Lemley Sr., the founder of the studio at the time. And I think he actually kind of hoped that this movie would give his father a heart attack. Maybe not a fatal heart attack. Not a fatal heart attack, but just a mild heart attack. And it almost did.

And, of course, they had to put it back into production. I mean, what you're seeing now is the toned-down version of Black Cat. Believe it almost did. And of course, you know, they had to put it back into production. I mean, what you're seeing now is the toned down version. Believe it or not. I mean, they actually yeah, they actually had like three and a half days and nights of retakes to try to get it to the point that it would that it would be released. And and Lemley Senior, again, the studio founder said, I will not release this picture until certain things go out. And so they went back and and and played around with it and and took things out but it was it's uh it whatever it is that the both both carloff and lagozzi are marvelous in it their chemistry in it is it's just terrific and watching the two of them together uh in that in which they're you know just evenly matched and and and going out

each other they just are you know they both look like they're ready to devour each other all the way through it. And, you know, in that way, it's a spectacle. And usually, I get angry. Usually, I get angry when a movie has a scene or two that just make no sense. Black Cat beginning

to end makes no sense. And it totally works. It does, isn't it? Yeah, and it totally works. It does, isn't it? Yeah, it's crazy that within its own mad, perverse way, it totally works. Yeah. Let's bring up something happier for Sarah than that experience. Sarah, arsenic and old lace, which Ron brought up before, and things I learned from doing research. I had no idea that your dad suffered

from occasional stage fright. Oh, he did. He said he suffered from it every time he set foot on the stage. But he said that is so good because it keeps an actor on his toes. And, oh gosh, who was it he said? Alfred Blunt. oh gosh who was it he said um alfred blunt um he said he taught he'd been he was asked in a marvelous interview um if he um was a method actor and he said well i won't tell you really

what i think about method actors and but he said my approach to the stage is, I'm going to misquote it badly, I'm sorry, but take a deep breath, you check your fly, and you go on stage and try not to bump into anybody. That's good. But my father did suffer from stage fright. It kills me that none of us got to see that performance, him in Arsenic and Old Lace. Oh, I know.

And then when you see the movie, the movie suffers. Nothing against Raymond Massey, but the movie suffers for the fact that he's not there and not playing that joke, that wonderful joke. Oh, I know. I know. Where it's like, he said I looked joke, that wonderful joke. Oh, I know. I know. Where it's like, he said I looked like Boris Karloff. Yeah.

That perfect line, but, you know, it is preserved on television. Ron, in the doc, in the doc, he's, I think it's Greg being interviewed, actually, and Greg's saying that he wanted no part of this when approached, coming to Broadway.

What do you think changed his mind? Well, no, you're absolutely right. When he was first offered the part, again, this proves what I think a wonderful man he was. He says, but I'm not a real stage actor. I'm a film actor. And Broadway, you know, he actually thought that he was beneath that. I mean, as good as he was, he hesitated. He did not believe that he could have pulled it off. But then he said, no, I want to make sure that these parts are, you know, there are parts that are just

as equal as mine and, and that it's, you know, taken well. And then of course the line that sold them is when they said, at one point you say,, I killed the man because he said I look like Boris Karloff. Now, in our documentary, we actually have a recording of Karloff saying that on stage and getting that laugh. It's not the Broadway version, but it's one of the versions he did. And when you hear that laughter, it's just so great. That's valuable. And the other thing, too, that he felt that once he did Arsenic and Old Lace, he actually said he went back to his dressing room and he says, you know what? I've finally married. I really feel I've made it now as an actor because I've accomplished

something and I have a hit on Broadway. So that was nice. I found it amazing, too, Greg, in your book that he felt insecure after the Frankenstein performance. He thought, is this going to ruin my career? He had anxiety. Yes. What was going to happen? I mean, he wondered how long could this go on? And of course, it was always the worry with all the actors who played horror roles that eventually they were going to somehow come off looking foolish. They wouldn't be credible. The audience would laugh at them. This was always a big fear that they had. And, you know, maybe the next horror character that he would be given to play, he wouldn't get on top of it and it would be a disaster.

And so he was very worried. for Karloff and for Sarah's mother, for him to have come along with this sudden overnight stardom as Frankenstein's monster, which is the strangest role you can imagine, and then to go on to play Fu Manchu and to play the mummy and all this sort of thing. And I don't know, but I can imagine him coming home at night from work and sitting down with Dorothy and saying, you know, how long can this

last? I mean, do you think I can really keep pulling this off? And I don't know, Sarah, did your mother do a lot of hand-holding, do you think, during those years with trying to help him and feel secure with the new stardom? I don't know. I just, I think she must have encouraged him, even before Frankenstein, to keep at it and keep at it and keep at it, because he had so many disappointments along the way and so many days of going down the hill from where they lived and coming back and there was nothing, nothing, nothing. And he took odd jobs rather than go back into the roles of an extra once he got to the point

of being a bit part player. being a bit part player. And in interviews, he had said that, that he knew it would be wrong to go back to just to be working in the industry to go back to extras. But, I mean, he just stuck with it. So I'm sure that she encouraged him a lot during those years before Frankenstein. And then I think she probably enjoyed the celebrity, the fun of being, of his stardom with more ease than he did because she had had a comfortable upbringing and was more comfortable in that lifestyle than he had ever lived. And so I think she probably encouraged him to relax in it more than he was brought up to be.

As we wind down here, I've got one more question from a listener. Pete Nelson, to Sarah, to your knowledge, what was his favorite performance, one he was proud of? Ron mentioned his TV work. Can we say the Grinch was one that he was particularly proud of? Can we say the Grinch was one that he was particularly proud of? My father, who never brought his work home and never really talked about his work, one night my phone rang, and this was extraordinary for him. He called me, and he said,

I have just done something that I think you and the boys, and I had two sons, and they were just little guys at the time. And he said, I think maybe you and the boys might enjoy. I think it's pretty good, pretty good. And I think you might enjoy sitting down and watching it. It's going to air tonight. It's called Dr. Seuss, and it's called How the Grinch Stole Christmas. And I think maybe you and the boys might enjoy watching it. Only time ever, ever, he called and talked about something he'd done

and suggested we watch it. So he loved doing The Grinch. He was so delighted. And when he knew about the Grammy, he was in England, and he asked his agent, Arthur Kennard, to go and accept the award for him. And he wasn't into awards. And so Arthur did. And the next time my father came over from England to Los Angeles,

he went to Arthur's office about work. And Arthur said, here, Boris, here's your Grammy. And he held it out, and my father took it and looked at it and turned it around, and he said, well, looks like a bloody doorstop. and he said, well, looks like a bloody doorstop. And he took it and he walked over to Arthur's door, office door, and put it down as a doorstop and he left it there. Didn't even take it with him.

Wow. Yeah. And he was never ever like embarrassed or bitter about being identified as the Frankenstein monster? Well, he referred to him tongue-in-cheek a bit as his best friend, because he realized the pivotal difference that that role made to his life, both personally and professionally. And one of the most frequently asked questions of him was, do you mind being typecast? And he said, it's only a foolish actor who minds being typecast, because if you're fortunate enough to find, he said, a line of country for which you're recognized. Be very grateful.

Because if your name, your face comes up when a certain type of casting is being done, and your face or name comes to the forefront, if you've established a trademark of some sort for a type of role, you're very lucky. And do never, ever resent it or just simply be grateful for it. He said, young people play young roles. Romantic roles are played by a certain type of person. romantic roles are played by a certain type of person, and always, always be grateful that you're known for a type of role. And he was always grateful for that role and what the difference it made in his life.

And he never minded being typecast. He said a shoemaker should stick to his last, and a plumber can't act, and an actor can't fix a sink that's nice to hear last question from me uh ron why do you think uh we're still talking about boris karloff all of these years later 50 years after the man is gone because he was excellent in what he did and his work shows it and his films and his tv work has lasted, and he left a mark. I mean, if you look just at three things in his career, he was the monster in Frankenstein on film, then he did Arsenic and Old Lace that was written just for him,

and then he did How the Grinch Stole Christmas. Actors would fight their whole career to have one of those things, and he had all three. So that's why he lasts. He really is heads above anyone else. And the best one that can tell you that for a fact is Sarah, because she travels all over the world and gets to see that and hear that. I'll get to Sarah in a second. But Greg, favorite Karloff performance and the same question.

Why is this wonderful performer still relevant a half century after he left? I would have to say the original Frankenstein. And I think that the reason he's so well remembered is because he could take a role like the Frankenstein monster and make it so moving and make it so identifiable for the audiences watching the film that it was like a little miracle of acting that he could pull off uh same thing with the mummy for example he took the mummy role as grotesque as it was and he turned him into this you know uh lover character who is you know this doomed lover wandering you know that's a great performance performance and uh the body snatcher again you know this repellent graveyard rat as

he's called in the in the movie and yet yet he has these very witting qualities and this super personality and all this sort of thing. And so he could, no matter what the role was, he could invest it with humanity so that the audience could identify with him. And so they loved him for that. And so that was why he was such a well-loved actor, is because he could play these outrageously grotesque roles and make them

identifiable for people sarah same question i think due to his fans i know due to his fans his fans recognize the man behind the monster they recognize the quality and humanity of the man and every role he plays children understood that the monster was the victim and humanity of the man in every role he plays. Children understood that the monster was the victim and not the perpetrator. That's why little Maria took his hand. His fans always have great respect and reverence for him and fondness for him. for him and fondness for him.

I think because of the variety of his body of work from Broadway, television, children's albums, film, radio, he had a huge amount of each of those. And the kindness and humor and humanity of the man himself comes through in each and everything he ever did, professionally and personally. He was, my godmother wrote a biography about my father, and she said almost to a person that she interviewed, they would preface their remarks by saying, Dear Boris, and that's what she titled the book. And I think the quality of his work and the quality of the man is why we're still talking about him today. And what would he think of all this attention?

Do you know? All these years later, knowing that his legacy, knowing that his name has lasted, that his films have endured, would he be tickled? Oh, he'd say, oh, for goodness sakes, what's the big deal? I'm the lucky one. I'm the lucky one. I'm the lucky one. Don't be so common. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.

Gil, if you don't have anything else, I'm going to get to the plugs. Okay. Let's start by promoting this wonderful documentary that Sarah is in, that Greg is in, that Ron wrote. And, Ron, how's it being received? Very well. We're so happy and so thrilled. The reviews have been fantastic, terrific. I really feel it's what you would call a critically acclaimed documentary. The people behind it have been wonderful.

Shell Factory and Barabarama, just wonderful people to deal with. And we're so happy and thrilled. And Thomas Hamilton, who also was involved with this, as well as directing the film, he couldn't be here. He's in London. Let's shout out Thomas. Yeah, just great, great work. And it really turned out the way I wanted it to be.

And I'm really happy with the end result. Good. Congratulations. And Gilbert, I was happy to see so many of our podcast guests in the doc. The late Dick Miller, the late Orson Dean. Roger Corman, David, Leonard Maltin, Sarah. Everybody turns up in there. Wonderful, wonderful film. And I hope everybody sees it and we're going to promote it like crazy.

Greg. Ron. Boris Karloff, the man behind the monster. And Greg is in it too. Yes, playing in theaters across the country. And Greg, what's coming up book-wise? What's coming up project-wise? We actually have a novel coming out called Frankenstein's Witch, St. Lizzie, Pray for Us, which takes place in 1931.

So I'll leave it at that. You can imagine what is happening if it's taking place in Hollywood in 1931. I have another history film book coming out, Angels and Ministers of Grace Defend Us, which has 13 chapters in it about various horror and fantasy and melodrama-related topics. So yeah, I'm staying busy. People have to get Greg's books. We'll push them on social media. And so much wonderful history. And he interviewed everybody. I tried. Tell us quickly, because we alluded to it. Tell us about Elsa Lanchester teaching you to hiss.

How about that? Is that a distinction? How about that? Yeah, we went to see Elsa Lanchester. I'd interviewed her for the book, It's Alive, way back when. And we went to see her. And I think she realized that I was really in awe of being in her presence. And she was really kind of enjoying the fact that I was just standing there all wide-eyed looking at her and all this. And I asked if I could talk to her about taking your picture. And she reached up and messed up her hair sort of like the Bride of Frankenstein, first of all, to pose for the picture. And then later she talked about, you know, the hiss.

And she said, let me show you how I did it. And she said, no, it's very much, it's sort of like you're trying to blow your nose, but there's nothing in your nose. So you kind of blow through your nose and your mouth at the same time as human is very very you know uh complete coaching on how to hiss like the bride of frankenstein so she and i she and i stood in her living room in hollywood we both hissed at each other for probably five minutes and it was it was great yeah loved it and carloff refused after Son of Frankenstein to put on the Frankenstein makeup ever again. But then he showed up late in life to do an episode of Route 66.

That's right. With Janie Jr. and Peter Lorre. And he got into the Frankenstein makeup for that. That's right. And he played in a ball game, in fact, in 1940, a celebrity baseball game in 1940 in Hollywood, and put on the whole monster makeup. Jack Pierce put it on him and got him all dressed up and made up. And he went out and hit the ball, and all the infielders ran away in terror,

and he ran away and got a home run. And Gil, before we sign off, I promised Sarah and Greg that you would, this is not a Karloff film, but it is a Universal classic. I promised a Maria Udinsponskaya impression. The way you walk is thorny through no fault of your own. But as the rain enters the sea, the sea enters the stream. So tears go on to a predestined end. Find peace for my soul. I have chills.

And I'm sorry if I misquoted some of that. quoted some of that. Also, even a man who is pure at heart and says his prayers by night may become a wolf when the wolf pain blooms and

the autumn moon is bright. Beautiful. I've never seen anyone dare imitate Maria Ouspenskaya. That is, yeah, bravo. Wonderful. It's more popular than ever now. The kids love it. As Gilbert likes to say. We want to thank Sarah and Greg

and Ron and Greg's very patient and wonderful wife, Barbara Mank, who was a big help. Rich Herron, who's done us a huge solid by going to Sarah's house to help Sarah. Our friends Jim McClure and Dan Spaventa, Richard Abramowitz, who's been a help through this, Jared Piantadosi, who helped with research.

Everybody pitched in for this one. God, this was a treat, huh, Gil? Oh, yeah. Anytime you, all three of you, want to come back and talk monster movies, anytime. But let's promise, Sarah, we won't bring up the black cat ever again can i bring up um frankenstein 1970 or young frankenstein oh now gilbert when you talk about that film I know a lot of people don't like that film, Frankenstein 1970. But when Boris is down in the crypt and he gives that speech, that monologue, oh, that's gorgeous. Yes. That's great acting. Oh, he does that great.

And it's such a bad movie. And he does a great job. It really is. And the next time you're watching Blazing Saddles, notice Robert Ridgely's impression of Boris as the executioner from Tower of London. Right. That's all I got. This was an absolute thrill. Thank you guys for patiently enduring all the tech and all the challenges.

And to the team, it takes a village. Everybody that helped make this possible. Thank you. Thank you. Happy Halloween, everyone. Thank you. Thank you. Happy Halloween, everyone. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween. Yeah, happy Halloween.

Happy Halloween. And Boris, the gifts that he gave us, just to continue. You know, I'd never seen Mask of Fu Manchu. Well, you got to. It's wild. Uh-oh. For Myrna Loyal. Yes.

It's impossible for the men to give a bad performance. So thank you all. All right. Gil, you want to sign us off? And this has been Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast with his co-host Frank Santopadre. Frank Santopadre. And our guests were Gregory Mank and Ron McCluskey and, of course, Sarah Callow.

I wish you guys could see Sarah laughing. Happy Halloween, everybody. Bye-bye. Thank you all. Bless you all. Bye-bye. Thank you all. Bless you all. Bye. I'm not so good in a crowd. But when I get you alone, you'd be surprised.

He isn't much at a dance, but then when he takes you home you'd be surprised he doesn't look like much of a lover but don't judge a book by its cover he has the face of an angel but there's a devil in his eye. He's such a delicate thing. But when I start him to squeeze, you'd be surprised. He doesn't look very strong, but when you sit on his knees, you'd be surprised. his knees. You'd be surprised at a party or at a ball.

I've got to admit I'm nothing at all. But in a Morris chair you'd be surprised. Surprise! He's not so good in a house But on a bench in the park You'd be surprised

I'm not so much in the light But when I get in the dark You'd be surprised On a streetcar or in a train. You'd think I was born without any brain. But in a taxi cab. You'd be surprised. Ah, ah, ah