Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Boris Karloff Tribute Show with Ron MacCloskey, Gregory Mank and Sara Karloff Encore

Episode Date: October 30, 2023

GGACP officially ushers in Halloween 2023 with this ENCORE of a fascinating panel discussion about the life and career of screen legend Boris Karloff. In this episode, the boys welcome writer-producer Ron MacCloskey, author-historian Gregory Mank and entrepreneur Sara Karloff for a celebration of all things Boris as well as a look at the 2021 documentary, “Boris Karloff: The Man Behind the Monster.” Also: Bela Lugosi plays matchmaker, Colin Clive battles demons, James Whale abuses his power and Karloff predicts stardom for Jack Nicholson! PLUS: “The Girl from Uncle”! The shadowy cinema of Val Lewton! Gregory meets The Bride of Frankenstein! Sara shuns “The Black Cat”! And Boris helps found the Screen Actors Guild! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Your teen requested a ride, but this time, not from you. It's through their Uber Teen account. It's an Uber account that allows your teen to request a ride under your supervision with live trip tracking and highly rated drivers. Add your teen to your Uber account today. Planning for a summer road trip? Check. Luggage? Check. Music? Check. planning for a summer road trip check luggage check music check snacks drinks and everything we can win in a new game at circle k check with circle k's summer road trip game you can win over

a million delicious instant prizes and a grand prize of twenty five thousand dollars play at games.circlek.com or at participating circle k stores this special episode of gilbert gottfried's amazing colossal podcast is brought to you by gilbert and frank's harmless nut coffee this place smells like coffee uh-huh just pour me another cup of that crazy coffee. Look for it in the bright orange can. I've always wanted to meet this guy, but I wonder why he has to meet me on a night like this. Come in. You know why I've asked you here.

I don't have a clue. You must convince the villagers that I'm harmless. I'll try, but, you know, when they see you... You're trembling. Are you afraid? No, I'm freezing my ass off. Have some nice hot coffee. It's harmless nut. Like it? Tastes... great. Hot coffee. It's harmless nut. Like it? Taste? Hot great!

Harmless nut has found a way of making coffee richer without being bitter. You can say that again! Harmless nut has found a way of making coffee richer without being bitter. hi this is gilbert godfrey and this is gilbert godfrey's amazing colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Well, it's our favorite time of the year again, and for our annual Halloween episode this year, we're celebrating the life and career of one of the world's most celebrated performers, the legendary Boris Karloff. And with a panel discussion about his life and career. And about the newly released 2021 documentary, Boris Karloff. The man behind the monster. And joining Frank and I are not one but three, count them three, Karloff experts associated with the new documentary.

And the author of numerous books, including It's Alive, the classic cinema saga of Frankenstein, One Man Crazy, The Life and Death of Colin Clive, Bela Lugosi, and Boris Karloff, the expanded story of a haunting collaboration, and the upcoming sequel to his 2014 book, The Very Witching Time of Night, Dark Alleys of Classic Horror Cinema. He's also scripted and narrated audio commentaries and DVD releases of the classic Karloff films The Mask of Fu Manchu and The Black Cat. And did we mention that Elsa Lanchester herself taught him how to hiss like the Bride of Frankenstein. Ron McCluskey is a writer, producer, and presenter of the long-running series Classic Movies with Ron McCluskey, as well as the curator of Frankenstein artwork,

featuring depictions and interpretations of Frankenstein's monster from artists all over the world. He's also the co-writer and one of the executive producers of the new documentary which he was inspired to work on after receiving the gift of a Frankenstein Aurora model at the tender age of seven. And our returning champion, Sarah Karloff, is a filmmaker, entrepreneur, public speaker, and the only child of Boris Karloff. She's the official keeper of the Karloff flame, having founded Karloff Enterprises back in 1993 to supervise and protect the persona and licensing rights relating to her famous father.

Through the official website Karloff.com, she helps to oversee the marketing and merchandising of her father's likeness as she travels all over the world greeting fans, hosting events, all over the world, greeting fans, hosting events, and keeping her father's personal and professional legacy alive. And so, without further ado, Gilbert Botry's Amazing Colossal Podcast, with his co-host Frank Santopadre I'm happy to introduce the bone-chilling Gregory Bank the terrifying

Ron McCluskey and most frightening of all Sarah Karloff and most rogning of all, Sarah Karloff. Welcome, all three. Welcome to the show, everyone. Wow, I didn't know that was coming,

Gil. Bravo. Beautiful. Oh, my God. When you say Santo Padre, it's like the way the Boris impersonators would say Antipasto. Yes. That was good. Thank you.

Coming from Sarah, that's the ultimate compliment. How about that? It was intended. It was intended to be. Welcome, all, and thank you guys for your patience in setting this up. This is the first episode we're attempting from four different states. Wow. Oh, and before I forget, Sarah, have you ever met Boris Karloff?

Not recently. Sarah was with us before, I think, what, 2015 you were here, Sarah? I think so, yes. You were maybe one of our first 25 guests, and they said it wouldn't last, and here we are approaching 400 episodes. Oh, my goodness, really? Yeah, so welcome back. This is a special occasion and a special episode.

Well, thank you for having me back. I must have behaved better then. You were great. Although Boris Karloff had already been working as a character actor, you're still, I guess, going from paycheck to paycheck. When a story similar to Lana Turner in Schwab's candy, Schwab's drugstore happened to him. And can all three of you say what happened, how he was discovered? Start with you, Sarah.

How James Whale found him for the role? Well, he really wasn't lost. But he had just finished doing criminal code, and he was on the lot at Universal and was in the commissary, and as he said, in his best suit and thought he looked really terrific. And James Whale had sent someone over to my father's table and asked him to join him for a cup of coffee. And Mr. Whale asked him if he would like to test for a part of the monster in this Frankenstein film. My father was a bit taken aback since he thought he would look slightly better than a monster that day, but he was delighted to work doing any part because he'd

spent the last 10 years in Hollywood when nobody noticed him, and he was delighted to be offered the opportunity to test for anything. So he went off with Jack Pierce, and he and Jack worked together, I believe, for two weeks on the makeup. Jack had made a point of studying anatomy and what somebody would look like if a brain had been implanted in his skull. And Jack said that my father was patient as a horse, and my father said that Jack was an absolute genius makeup man, the best in the business. And after two weeks, they came up with this test makeup. And the rest is cinema history.

Let's also just recap, too, for people that don't know, and a lot of people do know this, but how many films under his belt before he became an overnight sensation well frankenstein was his 81st film 81st film film and my father said hardly anyone had seen the first 80 and so the name boris karloff meant nothing uh i guess the to the public before Frankenstein. Absolutely. It really meant nothing.

And, of course, it wasn't his real name. His real name was William Henry Pratt. He was British. And somewhere along the line during the first 10 years my father spent in British Columbia doing repertory theater, first 10 years my father spent in British Columbia doing repertory theater, he changed his name because he felt Pratt would not be a particularly fortunate name up on a marquee as in Prattfall. But he changed his name oh, I think in about 1915

when he was up in British Columbia. And when asked where the name Boris Karloff came from, he always said, well, Karloff was somewhere way back in his mother's side of the family, although no biographer or historian has ever found it. And Boris simply came from thin air. So I'm sticking with his story. Greg, in your book,

wonderful book, one of your great books, Bela Lugosi and Boris Karloff book, there is, Sarah tells, I'm wondering if it's the official version of how he was cast, or one version, because there's speculation that,

what, that Wales' partner, David Lewis, had recommended him for the part after seeing criminal code yes even bailed claimed that he discovered karloff yes he did uh strangely enough uh he he legosi told the story frequently in later years that um uh you know that he was of course supposed to play the monster and that he was very unhappy about it felt it was an insult to play a role like that and that universal said to him that you know he could he could give it up if he could find an actor to replace him uh and that he went and scattered the agencies and came upon boris karloff and really with with all respect to beta legosi uh that that story just really doesn't have a

whole lot of credibility no uh you know at all because that's not the way the studios work they certainly weren't going to say to an actor yeah go out and find somebody else and bring him in and we'll use him uh so um so that was one story and yes you mentioned about david lewis who was the partner of james rail had seen him in the play the criminal code and said you have to see this actor he's got this tremendous face uh it's just really, really incredible. And, you know, he has this terrific sense of menace and he would be a wonderful monster. And it's interesting that, as Sarah says, Boris Karloff was by no means a name at that point in 1931. It was fortunate, though, that he was working steadily and that doing one

picture after another since the criminal code, again, none of them bringing him stardom, but at least he was working steadily. And he was living at the time in 1931, at the time that Frankenstein came along. He was living in a house in the Hollywood Hills that was at the top of 100 steps. house in the Hollywood Hills that was at the top of 100 steps. And I actually went and found the house at one point in my crazy way and found the house up. It was up in Whitley Heights. And I didn't have the exact address, but I saw a gate open. It was a Sunday. And a realtor was showing this house up there. And so I decided to start walking. And I walked up and actually, you know, nerdy fan, counted the steps, all right, as I went up. And so I decided to start walking and I walked up and actually, you know, nerdy fan, counted the steps. All right. As I went up and showed up, there were exactly 100 steps,

got to the top. There was this little house and there's a plaque next to the door. And it said, Boris Karloff's home, 1931. And by great luck, the realtor was showing the house that day. And I went in and said, oh, I'm a great Boris Karloff fan. Can I see the inside of the house? And she said, oh, knock yourself out. Go right ahead. And so I looked around. But can you imagine coming back to that house after a day on Frankenstein and having to work in that costume and that makeup and coming home, obviously, late at night after taking all that gear off and having to walk up those 100 steps before you could relax and have a drink and kind of stretch out and then be back at the studio, you know, four o'clock the next morning to start all over again.

I mean, the man had remarkable endurance. He earned every bit of his stardom. And now you actually interviewed the little girl who the Frankenstein monster tosses into the lake. Marilyn Harris. Yes, Marilyn Harris. And she was lovely. And it was a very sad case. She was a very haunted lady. She had had a terrible mother who had beaten her and tortured her and a very, very tragic Hollywood story.

And under the circumstances, you would think the last thing she wanted to be in would be a horror film working with a monster. But she said that she went to the studio the morning they went to the lake. They were going to take them out there in limousines. And she went right up to Boris Karloff in his monster outfit and went right up and took his hand and said, may I ride with you to the lake? And he said, would you, darling? And she said, oh, please. And so they rode out. She said they immediately had this bond, this incredible, remarkable bond, almost this mystical bond.

And that she felt very comfortable with him, very safe with him, that despite the way he looked, obviously, to be so frightening, that she just fell in love with him. And they worked together very charmingly, very sweetly. And unfortunately, her mother came along for the shooting of the scene. And when Karloff threw Marilyn in the first time, Marilyn's mother was hysterically excited, and she screamed, throw her in again! Throw her in again!

So she really had a very, very sad life, but she loved Boris Karloff all her life. And I believe it's very interesting that Sarah and Marilyn's son went out there, right, Sarah, to the lake? That's right. That's right. Just out of the blue, I got an email from Marilyn's son, and he wanted to be able to do something with her memorabilia, and he contacted me. And it was just so fortuitous because he contacted me just days

before the shoot had been arranged out at the lake. And so I said, oh, my goodness, yes, you've got to. I mean, I didn't know where he lived or anything. Turned out he lived in Arizona. And so it was possible for him to come to the shoot. I contacted the people who were going to do the shoot, and they were, of course, just over the moon that he was, you know, he had just come out of the bushes, so to speak,

and he was available and could make it to the shoot. And it was, he's the nicest man. And there also was a show called Monsterpalooza that same weekend. And he was able to attend that and meet fans of his mother's and discuss with people his mother and his mother's career and show the scrapbook and everything he'd made and recordings of interviews he'd done with her. And it just, it was absolutely magical.

And they took photographs of the two of us and floating daisies. And I said, don't you dare throw me me in don't even think about throwing me in the lake but i mean it was just it was just as it just so unheard of such a coincidence getting this email totally out of the blue i never heard of him never knew his name before and we've stayed in contact he's just the loveliest of men oh that's great and you know it's just so fortuitous for everybody involved great gil i have to point out something before we go before we move on this is something that i talked about with greg last night this is relevant to the conversation uh greg what were the dates that the lake scenes were shot with marilyn harris

they were september 28th and september 29th of 1931 so 90 years ago today that's right holy god okay i'm gonna go kill myself now oh don't just just wait. So today is a famous anniversary. It is. And what's interesting is Marilyn Harris's love of Karloff as the monster is similar to then years later, former podcast guest Janet Ann Gallo was the little girl in Ghost of Frankenstein, and she loved Lon Chaney Jr. as the monster. Yeah, that's a fun connection. Yeah, we had Janet, rest in peace, Janet Ann. We had her here a couple of years ago. Ron, in the documentary, Gilbert brings up the lake scene, and it's in the doc. Now, I assume you can't make a documentary about Karloff without including that story, because it's such an important part of his history.

Oh, sure. First of all, let me say, Gilbert, thank you for having us. I mean, this is great. You know, to be able to sit here and talk about Boris Karloff and Frankenstein, and you're not only an incredibly funny man, but you know your stuff. You know Universal Monsters. He does. Yeah. So that's great your stuff. You know Universal Monsters. He does. Yeah. So that's great to know. I was a pathetic kid. Yeah. Yeah.

Now, did you grow up on the East Coast like I did, where you had Zachary? Yes, Zachary. Yeah, sure. Yeah, all those things. Yeah, just great stuff. As a kid growing up, I actually had a monster club with a bunch of my friends, and we used to meet every week. And then, of course, they matured and got older, but I never did. I kept collecting monster stuff.

And I have everything that I had as a little kid. Do you still have any of the models? I don't have them, but I used to make the Aurora models. Right. And I'd read famous monsters of film land. Right. And I remember when I was little, I,

I saw in the paper that Boris Karloff had died. And immediately I said, that's Glenn strange. Oh, they ran the wrong photo. Yes. Yeah. Yeah,

they did. And just recently, last night, I watched a different documentary on Karloff, and they showed one Glenn Strange picture and another time Lugosi as the monster. Right. Yeah. Wow. Let me answer Frank's question, but before I do, Gilbert, before he died, I heard that he was in the hospital and he do, Gilbert, before he died, I heard that

he was in the hospital and he was sick. So as a fan, I was 13 years old, I wrote him a letter saying, I hope you get well, and I couldn't believe it, but I got a note back. It had a postmark from Los Angeles. I opened it up. It's from Boris Karloff. Wow. And he said, I'm fully recovered and back to work.

Thank you. And he autographed it. I kept the card and the envelope. And unfortunately, it was dated October of 68. And then he died in February of 69. So only four months afterward. But I treasure that. That's one of my friends of mine met Karloff. And he gave him his address. And he asked if Karloff could send him an autographed picture. And he received the autograph one day after Karloff had died. And I thought, isn't that the ideal way to get a Boris Karloff autograph right there? That's ghoulish.

Barlow photograph right there. Right. That's ghoulish. Speaking of address, Karloff lived at the famous Dakota. Yes, I learned that in Greg's book. I did not know that either. I learned so much. Right. So let me get to the lake scene.

So you're absolutely right. It was a scene that was very controversial. Boris Karloff, as the actor, felt it didn't belong in the film. Whale wanted it to be in the film. And eventually, Boris was right. When they screened the film, they had to take that out. They also had to take out a line when Colin Clive says, my God, now I know what it feels like to be God.

Because again, that was too controversial. So that they took out. But years later, they put back the scene in in and they put back the line in as well. But it was very controversial. Well, I thought the editing that Universal did made it worse. Correct. Because in the real scene, Karloff is confused and he sees the flowers are floating in the lake. And he assumes she'll float. so he tosses her in and then he looks like a frightened kid running off that he's done something wrong

and with the editing it goes right from Karloff and the girl throwing flowers in the lake to the father carrying his daughter's lifeless body in the village. Right. Right. But as an actor, I think that scene where Karloff shows that frightening look. It's wonderful. He was not aware. That is really one of those key scenes where that really showed the humanity of Karloff. Well, it showed that the monster is a little kid who doesn't know what he's doing.

Right. Greg, what happened after that? We talked about how he dared to confront or challenge Whale on that. He thought that the monster should not be throwing the little girl in the water, that it was wrong for the scene. And I understand the crew more or less sided with Boris, and then there was a price to pay. Exactly.

They had to come back to the studio that night, and Whale announced that there would be night shooting. They were going to go out on the back lot and shoot the scene where the monster runs up the hill to the windmill with Frankenstein over his shoulder. So they went back there, and Whale had Karloff run up the hill with Colin Clive over his shoulder over and over and over and over again all night and doing it over and again.

And he had to, of course, run up the hill to get away from the bloodhounds and the villagers with their torches. And it was a terrible, spiteful thing for Whale to do. And as Sarah will know, and as Ron knows, Boris had severe back trouble during his lifetime, and that certainly didn't help. That was a horrible thing for Whale was kind of losing it a little bit by the end of that picture. He said it was funny. He said he wanted everybody in that film to have insane passion, as he put it. He wanted Frankenstein to have insane passion. He wanted the monster to have insane passion. I think Whale had some insane passion by the time it was over. And to have done something like that to Karloff was just inexcusable.

And he got away with it at Universal. That happened at MGM or Warner Brothers. Jack Warner at Warner's or Louis B. Mayer at MGM would be down there and wring Whale's neck for having endangered an actor. But Universal, it got by. And any of you who want to answer this, it always seemed, of everything I read, that James Whale looked down on Karloff. Which is ironic because Whale came actually from a rather poor background.

And you could really kind of say that Whale sort of created himself. The way Frankenstein created a monster, Whale kind of created himself. He became this very elegant, sardonic, you know, patrician personality in Hollywood. Like he was almost like an aristocratic Englishman. And he gave off this image that that was what he was, that was where he was from. Whereas Boris Karloff, who came from, you know, a very, a higher element of society, shall we say, than Whale did, never put on airs, certainly about it in Hollywood. Never put on airs, certainly about it in Hollywood. And so it was it was a rather strange way for Whale to look at things, considering that, you know, his own background was was one of rather humble beginnings. And one thing that I every time I watch Frankenstein, I always think if if I had ownership of this movie, I'd cut it out.

And I think it may have been Robert Flory's idea. And that was the criminal brain. Yeah, that was sort of a Mickey Mouse kind of thing to put in there because it was a shortcut for them to make the monster dangerous. They'll say, well, we'll give him a criminal brain, and that'll scare the audience and kind of put them on the edge of their seat. What's he going to do now that he has this criminal brain in his head? But he certainly doesn't behave as if he's a criminal. He behaves, as we said earlier,

he's bewildered, he's lost, he's confused, he's all these things. But he's certainly not a criminal. He's certainly not evil. And so, yeah, I think that's a good point you make, Gilbert, about that. That probably could have gone. Sarah, was that the source, I think that's a good point you make, Gilbert, about that. That probably could have gone. Sarah, was that the source, you think, of his back problems? And did his relationship with Whale improve at any point after that, or was it forever soured? Because they worked together twice more, obviously, on The Bride and on Old Dark House. I think that my father recognized what Whale was doing and why he was doing it. He'd been challenged openly by, at that point, a bit part player.

And nobody had anticipated, one, the success of the film, and everybody had anticipated that Colin Clive, in whom Whale had an interesting interest, they all anticipated that he would be the star of the film. So there was resentment on the part of Whale, and my father understood what Whale was doing, paying him back for challenging him. He regarded my father as a bit of an upstart.

Interesting. Except there are photographs of the two of them having a smoke leaning against a railing there at the lake, and there are shots of them having tea, et cetera. But my father, as we said earlier, was just so grateful to be working in a film, and nobody recognized the import of this film and the impact it would have on cinema history or anything.

So it was just part of a day's work as far as my father was concerned. But he recognized what whale was doing yeah i think it also sorry frank i think it also had to do with jealousy and with ego i mean here whale was a celebrated director he had done journey's end in england he was very well received he comes over here they literally say to him pick script you want. You don't get that too often. Do whatever you want. And he chose Frankenstein. And then when I think he saw Karloff getting all the attention, I mean, he even said, oh, he's just a truck driver. Now, at one time, Boris actually did do that in between acting jobs. But I think he thought that Clive and I think he, James Whale,

would have been elevated from that film and they weren't. Did any of this factor into him not being, and I'm just purely speculating here, because I've always wondered, any of this factor into him not being invited to the preview or the premiere or do you believe it was just strictly an oversight?

Because it's rather outrageous. Because there are question marks in the listings at the end. Oh, I think that was on purpose. The question marks was to elevate everybody's curiosity as to who and what the monster was. I think that was a promotional thing. He got credit in the enrolling credits. He was given credit. It was a promotional thing. He got credit in the end rolling credits. Sure.

He was given credit. I think, actually, I think that my father was a nobody when that film was made. And so I just think that it was an oversight. He wasn't invited to the premiere. I see. I don't think it was deliberate oversight. He wasn't invited to the. I see. I don't think it was deliberate. I really don't. If we could get to Dr. Frankenstein for just a second. Colin Clive looks like he was a very troubled person. He had an awful lot of baggage. The poor man. He really

did. He he had some severe hang ups by the time that he did Frankenstein. He had some severe hangups. By the time that he did Frankenstein, he was already a severe alcoholic. He was only 31 years old. He had family issues. He was heartbroken because his whole life he had, well, his whole early life, he had wanted to be a Bengal Lancer because his ancestry were all these, you know, British soldiers who had served in India. And he grew up with the complete intention of becoming a Bengal Lancer. And he went to the Royal Military Academy in England and was only there a few months and there was a horse fall and he broke his knee. So that was the end of that.

He drifted into the theater and he really, he had a fascination with it, but he had terrible stage fright, which, of course, many actors have. But with him, it was just, you know, incredibly severe stage fright. So he was making his living in a career that scared him to get up every day or to go in every night to the theater and to stand in front of a camera. And so it was one of those cases where he was brilliant at what he did, but he was so very, very unhappy doing it.

And lots and lots of hangups. In the biography that I did recently of him, I go into detail about some of the discoveries I found that were really pretty shocking about his young life that kind of pushed him over the brink. When did he die? Was he 36, 37? It was in 1937, and he was only 37 years old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, there's always, you hear a lot of talk about the rivalry and animosity between Karloff and Lugosi.

So what's the truth to that? Bela Jr. and I have talked about that. And Bela being Hungarian and my father being British, they quite naturally had their own personal interests. And so it is not unusual that when they were not working together, their off-camera or offset time was spent doing different things. And today, when actors work together, long hours together, sometimes months together on a film,

it's not unusual that their offset time is spent doing different things, not seeing one another. And when a film is completed, it's not in the least unusual for actors not to socialize together. So the fact that Bela and my dad did not socialize together was not indicative of some personal animosity or personal rivalry.

I know that my father had a very high regard for Bela as an actor, but he did feel that it was unfortunate that he did not master the English language more than he did, which was the language in which he earned his bread and butter. But he felt he was a very highly trained and very good actor. And there's a quote Boris Karloff once said, poor Bela, he deserved more than he got. Well, I'm sure that's true.

He felt that he was a fine actor. But the one thing that held him back was that he did not, his English, he really never mastered the English language. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast after this. Ron, tell me about setting out, because we're here to really promote the documentary.

Tell me about what inspired this project, and tell me the thing that you learned, since you knew a lot about Karloff going into it. What was the biggest surprise? Well, the thing that just fascinated about me, and I believe I told this to Sarah the very first time I met her, is the wealth of work that this man did. or the very first time I met her, is the wealth of work that this man did. Yeah, he was in Frankenstein and horror films, but he just loved to work and did so many things, Broadway and radio and television. He was nominated for a Tony, won the Grammy. It was just fascinating to dig even deeper into his films.

And the thing that surprised me were movies like The Black Room and The Body Snatcher. Great one. Just wonderful. In fact, somebody, I think David Scull says in our documentary that he should have been nominated for an Oscar for The Black Room because of what he did. He played three parts. He played twin brothers. He played the good brother and the evil brother.

But then he played the evil brother playing the good brother. Gilbert, do you know this film at all, The Black Room? It sounds like one of those films I saw when I was a kid but haven't seen it recently. What about The Body Snatcher? Yes. He knows that one. Yes. And they brought back Bela for that one.

And that was a wonderful scene between Karloff and Bela. Oh, just wonderful. It was directed by Robert Wise. Robert Wise had an amazing career, but that was his first film, and the Body Snatch. And, of course, it was done for producer Val Luton. And Val Luton just did some great films like The Cat People and whatever. Greg, you know about Val Luton and his career, right? Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. He was a brilliant man, and he brought a very sophisticated, very

dark, very sexy vibe to the horror films in the 40s. And Karloff just loved working with him. He thought he was very original. He thought that he was very subtle. They had the same kind of sense of humor. It's interesting that in The Body Snatcher, for example, Karloff is at times rather funny. He has a great sense of humor, and his character really kind of makes you laugh. You know, you're expecting him to go into a dance at certain times. I mean, he's really just amazing. And that performance really did deserve an Academy Award.

And so, yeah, he and Luton were a great mutual admiration society. You also said, Greg, in your book, we were talking about Gilbert's question about the relationship between Bela and Boris. And you said they never seemed to be closer than they were during Son of Frankenstein. Yes, and it's interesting because there was a very good reason for that. For one thing, they were playing friends, if you will, the monster and Igor, all right? And the monster finally has a real friend in Son of Frankenstein. He has Beta Lugosi's Igor, and the two of them are just great. They just have this marvelous, wonderful chemistry together that's there. But also— That's Lugosi's Igor, and the two of them are just great. They just have this marvelous, wonderful chemistry together that's there.

But also— That's Lugosi's finest hour. Yeah, he is terrific. But actually, earlier that year, that was late 1938, Frankenstein that made her father and Karloff, who made Karloff and Lugosi even closer. Well, I was born on my father's 51st birthday, and it was the most expensive birthday present he ever got. It's sweet because Bela Jr. was 10 months old at that point, and you're writing about it in the book. And it's nice to read that they have this thing in common, that they're sharing.

And Bela's buying him a baby gift, and it's nice to read about that, that they made that connection. Yeah, they're both going home to babies after a day's work on Son of Frankenstein. And Lugosi got quite emotional about it a short time later. He said, yes, he said, DeBoris and I often get together and talk about how wonderful it would be if our children met and married one another one day. So I don't know if you ever talked about that with Bela Jr., Sarah, but his father was kind of pining for that at one point. We're friends. We're friends. We're friends. Bela Jr. and I are good friends.

And I saw something in one of the documentaries that when Karloff was doing, oh, The Raven, the one with Roger. Roger Corman. Roger Corman. The one with Roger... Roger Corman. Roger Corman. That Boris Karloff came home and said to his wife at the time, I don't know if that was... It was my stepmother.

Yes. And he said to her, there's a young man in this picture. Could you tell us who? Jack Nicholson. He said there's a young man in this film that's going to really amount to something. And my father spotted Jack Nicholson and said he's really going to amount to something someday.

Wow, he had an eye for talent, too. Was he right on that one? He really was. There is a real short documentary on the making of The Shining, and I'd never seen this before, but they interviewed Nicholson. And in his brief interview, he's talking about, I take my script and I mark it up, and I learned that from Boris Karloff, because that's what he used to do. So, yeah, he clearly acknowledged that in this documentary. And Boris Karloff, I heard, was the one, was teaching Frank Sinatra how to act.

That's right. He helped Frank, well, Frank marked his scripts, as my father did, and he helped him with one of his films, too. And I think he said to Frank Sinatra, you sing with your voice. You have to learn how to act with your voice. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's true.

You know, Sarah, reading the material, doing the research, the word that pops out at me about your dad is trooper. You know, not only did he not confront Whale about his bad behavior and other directors, but the makeup, the endurance, the physical stress that he went through. It brings me, I want to ask about the mummy. And I didn't know, and specifically the makeup, Pierce's makeup for the mummy. I mean, we know about how he suffered in the Frankenstein makeup, but I didn't know that the Ardeth Bay makeup had to be melted off his face.

Yes, and the Imhotep makeup, which he was in for just that one shoot, was horrendously difficult. Can imagine. And at the end of that shooting day, he passed out, just collapsed on the set because he was completely dehydrated. The gauze wrapping had just absorbed all his bodily fluids.

When they completed the preparation of the wrapping, he pointed out to them that they had neglected to put in a fly. he pointed out to them that they had neglected to put in a fly. And so they did have to rectify that. But then by the end of the day, I think it was a very, very long shooting day, and he just collapsed from total dehydration. And I heard Karloff. Well, this could be a total bull story. I hope it's true that when you were born,

he rushed to the hospital in his Frankenstein makeup. No. I'm sorry. I thought it sounded too good to be true. It's too good to be true. It's still on Wikipedia, so somebody needs to take it down. There's a fairly well-known photograph of my father at the hospital with a nurse holding me, and my father dressed rather smartly in one of his sports coats,

looking at me, I think, thinking, oh my God, what have I done? But trying to look adoringly at me, but a nurse holding me at the hospital the day I was born and he was not in his makeup. Sarah, I asked you this last time, I'm sure, so forgive me, but how old were you when it dawned on you, and I'm sure you've been asked this, how old were you and how did you find out, how did it start to dawn on you who your father was? You know, he was my father.

And he didn't bring his work home. He was very modest and very self-effacing and very funny. And our home life was very quiet and reserved. um he he you know he loved gardening he loved reading he loved animals and he once by the time i was born he was making his third frankenstein film he was an established star and he could leave his work at the studio and so he didn't talk about his work at home what are you going to say to a five year old child about your career especially if the genre is the horror genre nothing

so it wasn't until I was actually, he was noticed in restaurants. But how many places do you take a young child? My parents were divorced when I was seven. And so in school, in Beverly Hills, a famous name didn't stick out that much. And I went to a Miss Buckley's private kindergarten and nursery school or whatever. And I'm sure all of you know who C. Aubrey Smith was. Sure. And Lady Smith used to babysit me after school some days. And so it was a rather cloistered life, if you like.

They were just friends, everybody. Some were famous people, but they were just friends of my father's, friends of my family. I didn't go to movies when I was young, that young. And by the time my parents were divorced and each remarried very happily and successfully, and my mother moved to San Francisco with my stepfather, whom I adored, then my name stuck out, and then I became aware of my father's fame and the notice my last name received. But growing up in a household with my father,

except when we went to restaurants, there wasn't much notice taken. I mean, he was so recognizable, and his voice was so recognizable, but people minded their manners better then. I can remember later in life, still growing up though, it was an experience to ride on an elevator with him because people didn't know whether or not to mind their manners in an elevator or take advantage of the situation. But by and large, I mean, there was a lot of elbow nudging going on in the elevator, elbow nudging going on in the elevator. But it wasn't until we actually left the elevator that they were pointing and saying,

that was Boris Karloff, that was Boris Karloff. But people minded their manners. And so the degree of his fame and the degree of his recognizability was not really invasive, like it would be now, especially now if he came back. But I was 19 years old and sitting in my mother and stepfather's living room watching television

when I watched Frankenstein for the first time. Interesting. I mean, it just didn't permeate my life, his fame. He never talked about his career. When I'd go and visit my father and stepmother, you know, we did. I mean, I can remember him taking me to the circus, or I could remember him taking me to things he thought I would enjoy. He took me to a football game one time. I can assure you that people for five rows around us couldn't tell you anything

about the football game because they were too busy looking at him one day my mother went to play bridge and left me in the care of my father and he'd been shooting um uh tower of london where he had less hair than gilbert does at the moment and um i'm doing my best to offend you g kilburn and so he thought it would be a good idea to take i was about i don't know three years old four yeah four years old and so he thought it would be a good idea to take me out and have my head shaved my mother didn't think that was a good idea when she came home to her little girl with a shaved head. No wonder they got divorced when I was seven. However, she didn't leave me in his care very often thereafter. I was left with a governess.

There you go. Of the three top horror stars at that time period, it was like Lugosi, Lon Chaney Jr., and Karloff. And Karloff seemed to be the one wrestling with the least amount of demons. He seemed the most level-headed mentally and emotionally. He was very level-headed. He didn't have a fuzzy childhood because his parents died when he was rather young, and he was the youngest of nine children.

parents died when he was rather young and he was the youngest of nine children and he had eight seven brothers and one sister and uh he was supposed to go into the counselor service which diplomatic corps of which he had no intention of doing and uh so I think he faced his demons early on and made his decisions early on to go to the film business and left home and went all the way to America, actually to British Columbia first for 10 years and paid his dues in repertory theater and then made his way down to, eventually, to Hollywood. So he paid his dues, but he was in a career, a profession that he loved, no matter the hardships or the disappointments.

And he stuck with it, and he really felt he was the luckiest man alive to be able to spend his life doing something he loved doing and then be jolly well paid for it. So I don't think he had any real demons, certainly not in his later years. He had no bad habits. I mean, he didn't have any excesses in his life. He didn't have a drinking problem. He didn't have any drugs. He simply didn't have any excesses in his life. He didn't have a drinking problem. He didn't have any drugs. He didn't,

you know, he simply didn't have any excesses. He lived a very quiet, modest life and never got caught up in being a star or into awards. And I think it was his English background and his English upbringing that stayed with him all his life, and why in his later years he went back to England and lived the last 10 years of his life. He was typically British. What were you going to add, Ron? The other difference between the other two,

Gilbert, that you brought up, Lugosi and Cheney Jr., is, in my opinion, Karloff loved to work, and he succeeded after his success. And as you know, that doesn't happen a lot. Some people get a success, and then nothing happens. But Boris, he loved to challenge himself. He loved doing different things, and everything he did, he was wonderful in. So from film, he then went to radio. And then he went to Broadway with Arsenic and Old Lace. And I think the work kept him busy. I mean, they say, you know, when you sit around, you have idle time.

That's when the bad habits pick up. But he kept working. And he loved it. And let me say one more thing too about what a wonderful man this is as far as being an actor. He was one of the founders of the Screen Actors Guild. Yes. And he knew and he remembered what it was like in the beginning of his career. And he knew how people were treated. I mean, believe it or not, when he made Frankenstein and he would sit in

that makeup chair for 45 hours. He was not paid. He was not paid until you stepped foot on the set. Well, he made sure that that would change, that people were not treated like that. And he really made a difference. And I think that's one of the best things about being Boris Karloff and finding the Actors Guild. Right, Sarah? Oh, yeah. He was very proud of that. His card number was number

nine number nine and he never never um he never talked about it but i know that was one of the things he was most pleased about at being involved with greg was that what ron alludes to uh him being one of the founders he he witnessed a lot of bad behavior on sets. Certainly, we talked about Wales' misbehavior, but certainly Edgar Ulmer's misbehavior on the set of The Black Cat, and Karl Freund's too. Was the mistreatment of actors one of the things that was motivating him? I'm sure it was.

I think he had a very liberal spirit as far as in general and, you know, a lot of compassion. But he did see some horrible things happening in Hollywood in those early years. It's alluded to in the documentary about Zita Johan being treated so badly in The Mummy. And having spoken with her, she said, you know, the one thing, and this was very often the case when you talk to people who work with him, she said, the thing that really saved the movie for me was working with Boris Karloff because he was so nice and so sweet and such a gentleman. And it was a pleasure to come to work every day, despite Karl Freund, because I know I'd be working with Boris Karloff. So there was that. And you mentioned about lucille lund yes that she was very terribly

tortured and sexually harassed on the black cat now neither carloff nor legosi were aware of this was kind of done you know secretly uh and uh they weren't aware of it until i don't know if they were ever aware of it but um if they had been you can bet that they both would have really both carloff and legosi would have really put their foot down and insisted that that would stop. Yeah, he was not going to stand for that. He was a very, very compassionate person. And, you know, something else to mention that we were getting at a little earlier, and that is that one of the reasons I think that he was so content and happy is that I think he realized how appreciated, how really deeply appreciated he was so content and happy is that I think he realized how appreciated, how really deeply appreciated he was by his peers. It was really kind of funny and something I really enjoyed

in talking with people who worked with him in the early years is that a lot of the actresses who worked with him in the early and mid-30s really seemed to have a little crush on him. You know, it was more than just, oh, he was such a nice man. It was like, oh, you know, he was such a nice man. I mean, okay. I mean, it was a, I don't mean that there was anything, you know, not platonic happening, but, you know, they really kind of developed a little crush on him. On The Black Cat, both Jacqueline Wells and Lucille Lund, who I talked to, said, you know,

that they were so unhappy on that film because it was so morbid and it was so awful and had necrophilia in it and it had a black mass in it and it had all these, you know, corpses hanging in glass cases in it and all the sort of thing that they had to live with every day. And he sang her songs, and he was so high-spirited on the set, just so nice that he got her through it. Same with Jacqueline Wells. She was so frightened just going to work every day to be in that picture. And she said she got to know Boris, and he made the time fly by, and she just loved him so much. Valerie Hobson, who was in Bride of Frankenstein, same thing.

She was only 17 years old at the time, and she said, here I was, a stranger in a strange land in Hollywood. And on Frankenstein, there he was in this magnificent monster costume and makeup and everything. And yet he was the one that really made me feel at home. He was the one that really made me feel happy and secure and who I looked forward to seeing every day on the set. And he just was such a wonderful man. And Francis Drake, who was in The Invisible Ray with him, she really flipped over him. She said, oh, he had the most beautiful eyes, the most beautiful brown eyes you could drown.

She said very dramatically. Now, Sarah, you have the same dark brown eyes, right? Not quite the same. Greg, reading the books, he seems very protective of his fellow actors. Oh, yes. Gilbert, we've talked in the past about how May Clark was scared in Frankenstein, so he would wiggle the pinky. Yes, yes. I was just going to mention that one.

Yeah, that she was afraid she'd faint during that scene so he had a thing that he waved his pinky around like it's just me boris that's right his upstage hand so the camera wouldn't pick it up and um yeah and i know her too she was just a goggle for him so all these all these actors just they responded to him you know not just that he was a nice man but it was a very attractive man that he had you you know, had these beautiful eyes, these beautiful manners, there's all this charm. He was so funny. You know, they just loved working with him. And, you know, you could tell that, you know, it was really a high point in their career to have been a leading lady for Boris Karloff. But those stories continued throughout his entire career. Even Julie Harris

just adored him, and Lee Grant had just wonderful things to say about Boris Karloff. And so did Stephanie Powers. That's right, yes. Yes, when he was, what was the name of the- Mother Muffin. Yes. Mother Muffin.

He was in full dress. He told the story on himself that when they finished the makeup and he looked up in the mirror, he said, I look like a two-bit whore. And he became the victim, like a lot of people who are pounced on on that show, of this is your life. That's a great clip. It's in great clip. It's in the doc. Well, he and Ralph and Barbara and my stepmother were really good friends, and they often watched the show, and then they'd go out to dinner afterwards.

And he had gotten Ralph to promise that he would never, ever make him the subject of the show. And I don't know if Ralph got my stepmother to agree to it or if my stepmother got Ralph to agree to doing the show. But whoever it was, really, my father said later that Evie, my stepmother, had sold him out for a washer and dryer. Wow. He looked even less happy than Sid Caesar in the parody sketch. On your show of shows.

Yeah, but you know what the thing is, though? But Ralph was, I think Ralph was so smart, Ralph Edwards. He had Bars and Evie sit in the audience prior to that. In the wings. Right. No, no, no. But there's one episode, Sarah, where they're in the audience. And they think they're going to bars, but it wasn't.

They went two rows back, and they honored somebody else. So maybe bars thought, okay, we're going to do this again. It's not me. It's somebody else. Well, my father thought he was being introduced he went right right but then when he realized that and the ultimate uh you bet your life uh was when they had luke costello on that's tragic and and he and he says this next part like a game show host you know know, like, you've won a million dollars. And he goes, and at this date

the worst thing that could happen to any man, the death of his son. And it was... Talk about horror movies. Yeah. Boris does brighten up considerably

when Jack Pierce walks out. Yes. No. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. You seem genuinely happy to see him. Oh, yes. And the cricketer. Yeah. Yeah, he loves... Yeah. The cricketer and Jack Pierce and the man from Anchorage lasted. Right.

Frank Brink. Those three people. And his school chum. Right. His old school chum. Those were gems. He says, greatest makeup man in the world. I owe him a lot. Right.

Yes. You know, I thought I knew a lot about Karloff, and I thought I knew a lot about Jack Pierce. I think until I saw the doc and Greg read your book, that I didn't realize how instrumental Boris was in collaboratively speaking in creating that makeup. Yes, particularly about the eyes. The eyes veiled with this kind of what they call lizard eyelids because he didn't want the monster

to look too aware. He wanted him to look sort of like he was just really starting to discover the world and so the eyes couldn't look too bright. The eyes couldn't look too, you know, conscious of what was going on. And so he was particularly inventive with that. And, you know, again, one of the really great things about that movie is that introduction that, of course, everybody always talks about when the monster comes in and he comes in backwards and turns around and looks at the screen. And of course, you know, he's a monster, he has electrodes in his neck, and he's got all this incredible makeup. But he has beautiful eyes, you know, and, you know, he has almost Greta Garbo eyes, you know, and it's like, it's so,

it's such an uncanny thing that it makes it all the more scary. I think our friend David Skull makes a great point in the documentary that because of Boris's bone structure, it's something that suits the look and the makeup so well that he makes the point that no other actor that put on the makeup ever looked quite as convincing, quite as good. No, not at all, not at all. And didn't I heard another story that in the back of his mouth uh karloff had like

dentures and he he removed them to make a more skull-like face yeah they filled in that like little beauty mark on his cheek on the one side that kind of hollowed it out that supposedly he took out a bridge he took out a partial bridge, and that created an indentation. But he had a partial bridge that he took out. But when you think about that makeup, the camera doesn't lie, as we all know today. And that makeup had to be exact every single day. It had to be exactly the same. speaks to the genius of jack pierce and carloff another thing where the british background comes in there are photos of it

of him in full frankenstein makeup uh sipping a teacup and he would always have a tea break during the movie right as a matter of fact they made a special board where he could lay back because of the costume and the makeup where he could lay back and have a cigarette and a cup of tea because they were afraid of something happening to to the costume the pictures are in greg's book we will return to gilbert godfrey's amazing colossal podcast but first a word from our sponsor. Let me ask a question from a listener of you guys. This is from Gene Beretta.

Can anyone talk about Boris's experience with Bogdanovich, who was also here, in one of my favorite films, and that's Targets? That was a project he was particularly proud of. Greg, can you speak about Targets? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a wonderful, it's not his last film, but it probably should be. It was a beautiful send-off. And although he's not technically playing himself, he sort of emotionally and spiritually is.

And Bogdanovich understood the know, understood, uh, the whole Karloff persona. He was able to build the film around him, uh, this wonderful contrast between, uh, an, an, an old tired horror movie star from the golden age of Hollywood and the real life horror of a sniper, uh, in the late 1960s. Um, the film was just brilliant. And I, I know that Karloff was very, very proud of it. And I'm so glad that Ron in the documentary that you showed that marvelous extended take. It's great. In which Karloff tells that story. I mean, that's just mesmerizing. And it was like two in the morning when he really should

have been flagging. Yeah. And one take and right through and uh it's it's it's it's a magical film and uh it's just it's just wonderful that he had that at the end of his life to uh you know to be so proud of yeah this story is called the appointment in samara is the name of the story that he tells in targets and uh yeah yes and also let me point out that you you know, Boris loved to work with young people. Bogdanovich wasn't the only one.

So he always loved to hear new ideas and new thoughts and work with young actors and directors and writers. So he really did love to introduce new people and work with new people. I just have to bring up the black cat. Yeah, we talk about that a lot. He's obsessed with the black cat. We're obsessed with it on this show. We've done almost 400 episodes, as I mentioned to Sarah earlier, and it's come up on this show, what, 30, 40 times, Gilbert.

Sarah, I know you didn't see Frankenstein until you said you were a teenager. can you recall your initial reaction to that one yeah to the black cat oh yes um i was an adult well if i ever was and um a mutual friend of i think you know him greg um ron borst yes um what came out to the desert and said sarah you have to see this film and i mean it's one of your father's best known films and i one of the worst kept secrets is i don't like scary movies that's part of why i brought it out to the desert and said, now, sir, you have to watch this. And, of course, I didn't want to. And so we left all the lights on.

It was in the afternoon. And he had to come and retrieve me from the hall three times. Wow. And I've never forgiven him. I mean, he's an ex-friend. And I've, yeah, I've seen it. Thanks a lot. I've seen it now several times.

Each time I like it less and less because it's abhorrent. It has some real, I don't know how it ever got past the censors. Yeah, it's a mystery. There were no censors. There was no code. It's distasteful. It's brilliant. I don't like watching my father about to be skinned alive,

you know, even up on the big screen. Even if Bela mispronounces how he's going to skin him alive. You know what I'm going to do to you now, Valimar? I'm going to tear the skin from your body, bit by bit. I guess he was trying to say tear, right, Greg? I think so. Frank, do you

have a favorite line from the Black Cat, Frank? There are so many. Yes. There are so many. Really? Oh, yeah. There's that line where David Manners says, oh, that sounds like a lot of supernatural baloney. And he goes, supernatural perhaps, baloney perhaps not. My favorite one is when he says.

Who wrote that? Even the phone is dead. Yeah. I always thought it was a black comedy, but maybe I missed, maybe that's just me. Maybe it is. And we're going to play a game. Oh, yes. A game of death, if you'd like.

How did it get past the Breen office, Greg? Sarah makes an excellent point because it offends on so many levels, and it's 1934. I think Joseph Breen actually thought anybody who goes to see this film deserves everything they get. It gives them nightmares. They deserve them. They should know better to even go to such a movie. And he figured, I'm just going to wash my hands of this know, you guys want to go on making this kind of awful picture. Plus, I think some of it might have gone over his head. I mean, I'm not sure if he really understood some of the really sick things that were in there. And probably, I imagine Universal also did a little double talk with him.

I mean, the Black Mass, my favorite lines in the movie are when Carlos reciting the prayers in the Black Mass, that he's reciting all that Latin. And when you sit down and translate the Latin, the Latin all is gibberish. You know, he's in the con grano salis, which means with a grain of salt. And, you know, these other lines he's saying. I'm telling you, it's a comedy. It is a real trip. And so I think that, really, I think Breen just figured, I mean,

when he read the script, he came back with like 30 things that they needed to cut. Universal sent him back the script and had taken out like two of them. I think Breen figured, okay, if you want to do something like this, you want to play this game, let this movie blow up in your face. Let you deal with all the problems from the censors. Let you deal with all the fallout. Maybe you'll learn a lesson and stop making movies like this. But yeah, yeah, it really is. It's tremendous.

I'm also very glad they used in the documentary the Carlos wonderful line about he has an intense and all-consuming horror of cats, and he uses his lisp so beautifully on that word, cats. You know, he lets the S... The funny thing there is they call it the Black Cat. It has absolutely nothing to do

with... With the Poe story? They threw that out early. Yeah, so they threw in that quick part, he has a fear of black hats and they never mentioned it again well almer is making a story about a satanist based on alistair crowley is he not greg yes he is and i think what he had in his mind was this great magnificent story about the modern incarnation of lucifer who was borisloff, fighting out with his avenging angel, who was Bela Lugosi. And I think that Junior Lemley, the producer, allowed him to do it because Junior was

fighting with his father, Carl Lemley Sr., the founder of the studio at the time. And I think he actually kind of hoped that this movie would give his father a heart attack. Maybe not a fatal heart attack. Not a fatal heart attack, but just a mild heart attack. And it almost did. And of course, they had to put it back into production. I mean, what you're seeing now is the toned down version of Black Cat. Believe it or not. They actually had like three and a half days and nights of retakes to try to get it to the point that it would be released. And uh lemley senior again

the studio founder said i will not release this picture until certain things go out and so they went back and and and played around with it and and took things out but it was it's uh it whatever it is that the both both carloff and lagozzi are marvelous in it their chemistry in it is it's just terrific and watching the two of them together in that, in which they're just evenly matched and going at each other, they both look like they're ready to devour each other all the way through it. And in that way, it's a spectacle. And usually I get angry.

That's a plot point of view. Usually I get angry when a movie has a scene or two that just make no sense. Black Cat beginning to end makes no sense and it totally works it does isn't it yeah it's crazy that within it in its own mad perverse way it's totally totally works yeah let's bring up something happier for sarah than than that experience sarah arsenic arsenic and old lace, which Ron brought up before, and things I learned from doing research. I had no idea that your dad suffered from occasional stage fright. Oh, he did.

He said he suffered from it every time he set foot on the stage. But he said that is so good because it keeps an actor on his toes. And, oh, gosh, who was it he said? Alfred Lunt. He said he was asked in a marvelous interview if he was a method actor, and he said, well, I won't tell you really what I think about method actors, but he said, my approach to the stage is,

I'm going to misquote it badly, I'm sorry, but take a deep breath, you check your fly, and you go on stage and try not to bump into anybody that's good and but my father did suffer from stage fright

it kills me that none of us got to see that performance, him in Arsenic and Old Lace the movie suffers, nothing against Raymond Massey, but the movie suffers for the fact that he's not there and not playing that joke, that wonderful joke. Oh, I know. I know.

Where it's like, he said I looked like Boris Karloff. Yeah. That perfect line, but it is preserved on television. Ron, in the doc, I think it's Greg being interviewed, actually, and Greg's saying that he wanted no part of this when approached, coming to Broadway. What do you think changed his mind? Well, no, you're absolutely right. When he was first offered the part, again, this proves what I think a wonderful man he was.

He says, but I'm not a real stage actor. I'm a film actor. And Broadway, you know, he actually thought that he was beneath that. I mean, as good as he was, he hesitated. He did not believe that he could have pulled it off. But then he said, no, I want to make sure that these parts are, you know, there are parts that are just as equal as mine and that it's, you know, taken well. And then, of course, the line that sold them is when they said,

at one point, you say, I killed the man because he said, I look like Boris Karloff. Now, in our documentary, we actually have a recording of Karloff saying that on stage and getting that laugh. It's not the Broadway version, but it's one of the versions he did. And when you hear that laughter, it's just so great. It's not the Broadway version, but it's one of the versions he did. And when you hear that laughter, it's just so great. That's valuable. And the other thing too, that he felt that once he did Arsenic and Old Lace,

he actually said he went back to his dressing room and he says, you know what? I've finally met it. I really feel I've made it now as an actor because I've accomplished something and I have a hit on Broadway. So that was nice. I found it amazing too, Greg, in your book that he felt insecure after the Frankenstein performance.

He thought, is this going to ruin my career? He had anxiety. Yes. What was going to happen? I mean, he wondered how long could this go on? And, of course, it was always the worry with all the actors who played horror roles that eventually they were going to somehow come off looking foolish. You know, they wouldn't be credible.

The audience would laugh at them. This was always a big fear that they had. And, you know, maybe the next horror character that he would be given to play, he wouldn't get on top of it and it would, you know, it would be a disaster. And so he was very worried. And so he was very worried. And, you know, I think that it must have been a very interesting time for for for Karloff and for Sarah's mother, for him to have come along with a sudden overnight stardom as Franken of thing. And I don't know, but I can imagine him coming home at night from work and sitting down with Dorothy and saying, you know, how long can this last? I mean, do you think I can really keep pulling this off? And I don't know, Sarah, did your mother do a lot of hand-holding,

do you think, during those years with trying to help him and feel secure with the new stardom or? I don't know. I just I think she must have encouraged him even before Frankenstein to keep at it and keep at it and keep at it because he had so many disappointments. appointments yeah and uh along the way and so many days of going down the hill um from where they lived and coming back and there was nothing nothing nothing and um and he you know he took odd jobs and uh rather than go back into the roles of an extra once he got to the point of being a bit part player. And in interviews, he had said that, that he knew it would be wrong to go back to just to be working in the industry

to go back to extras. But, I mean, he just stuck with it. So I'm sure that she encouraged him a lot during those years before Frankenstein. And then I think she probably enjoyed the celebrity, the fun of being, of his stardom with more ease than he did because she had had a comfortable upbringing and was more comfortable in that lifestyle than he had ever lived. And so I think she probably encouraged him to relax in it more than he was brought up to be. As we wind down here, I've got one more question from a listener. Pete Nelson, to Sarah, to your knowledge, what was his favorite performance, one he was proud of?

Ron mentioned his TV work. Can we say The Gr his favorite performance, one he was proud of? Ron mentioned his TV work. Can we say the Grinch was one that he was particularly proud of? My father, who never brought his work home and never really talked about his work, one night my phone rang, and this was extraordinary for him. and this was extraordinary for him, he brought his, he called me, and he said, I have just done something that I think you and the boys, and I had two sons, and they were just little guys at the time, and he said, I think maybe you and the boys might enjoy. I think it's pretty good.

Pretty good. And I think you might enjoy sitting down and watching it. It's going to air tonight. It's called, it's Dr. Seuss, and it's called How the Grinch Stole Christmas. And I think maybe you and the boys might enjoy watching it. Only time ever, ever, he called and talked about something he'd done and suggested we watch it.

So he loved doing The Grinch. He was so delighted. And when he knew about the Grammy, he was in England, and he asked his agent, Arthur Kennard, to go and accept the award for him. And he wasn't into awards. And so Arthur did. And the next time my father came over from England to Los Angeles, he went to Arthur's office about work. And Arthur said, here, Boris, here's your Grammy.

And he held it out. My father took it and looked at it and turned it around, and he said, well, looks like a bloody doorstop. And he took it, and he walked over to Arthur's door, office door, and put it down as a doorstop, and he left it there. Didn't even take it with him. Wow.

Yeah. stop and he left it there didn't even take it with him wow yeah and and he was never ever like embarrassed or bitter about being identified as the frankenstein monster well he he he realized he referred to him tongue-in-cheek a bit as his best friend because he realized the pivotal difference that that role made to his life, both personally and professionally. And one of the most frequently asked questions of him was, do you mind being typecast? And he said, it's only a foolish actor who minds being typecast. Because if you're fortunate enough to find, he said, a line of country for which you're recognized, be very grateful.

Because if your name, your face comes up when a certain type of casting is being done, and your face or name comes to the forefront, if you've established a trademark of some sort for a type of role, you're very lucky. And do never, ever resent it or just simply be grateful for it. He said young people play young roles, romantic roles are played by a certain type of person, and always, always be grateful that you're known for a type of role.

And he was always grateful for that role and what the difference it made in his life. And he never minded being typecast he said a shoemaker should stick to his last and a plumber can't act and an actor can't fix a sink that's nice to hear last question from me uh ron why do you think uh we're still talking about boris karloff all of these years later, 50 years after the man is gone. Because he was excellent in what he did, and his work shows it, and his films and his TV work has lasted, and he left a mark. I mean, if you look just at three things in his career, he was the monster in Frankenstein on film, then he did Arsenic and Old Lace that was written just for him, and then he did How the Grinch Stole Christmas.

Actors would fight their whole career to have one of those things, and he had all three. So that's why he lasts. He really is heads above anyone else, and the best one that can tell you that for a fact is Sarah, because she travels all over the world and gets to see that and hear that. I'll get to Sarah in a second, but Greg, favorite Karloff performance and the same question. Why is this wonderful performer still relevant a half century after he left us? I would have to say the original Frankenstein. And I think that the reason he's so well remembered

is because he could take a role like the Frankenstein monster and make it so moving and make it so identifiable for the audiences watching the film that it was like a little miracle of acting that he could pull off uh same thing with the mummy for example he took the mummy role as grotesque as it was and he turned him into this you know uh lover character who is you know this doomed lover wandering you know that's a great performance performance and uh the body snatcher again you know this repellent graveyard rat, as he's called in the movie. And yet he has these very witting qualities and this super personality and all this sort of thing. And so he could, no matter what the role was, he could invest it with humanity so that the audience could identify with him.

And so they loved him for that. so that the audience could identify with him. And so they loved him for that. And so that was why he was such a well-loved actor, is because he could play these outrageously grotesque roles and make them identifiable for people. Sarah, same question. I think due to his fans, I know due to his fans, his fans recognize the man behind the monster.

They recognize the quality and humanity of the man in every role he plays. Children understood that the monster was the victim and not the perpetrator. That's why little Maria took his hand. His fans always have great respect and reverence for him and fondness for him. I think because of the variety of his body of work from Broadway, television, children's albums, film, radio. He had a huge amount of each of those.

And the kindness and humor and humanity of the man himself comes through in each and everything he ever did, professionally and personally. My godmother wrote a biography about my father, and she said almost to a person that she interviewed, they would preface their remarks by saying, Dear Boris, and that's what she titled the book. And I think the quality of his work

and the quality of the man is why we're still talking about him today. And what would he think of all this attention? Do you know? All these years later, knowing that his legacy, knowing that his name has lasted, that his films have endured, would he be tickled?

Oh, he'd say, oh, for goodness sakes, what's the big deal? I'm the lucky one. I'm the lucky one. Don't be so common. Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Gil, if you don't have anything else, I'm going to get to the plugs.

Let's start by plugging this. Let's start by promoting this wonderful documentary that Sarah is in, that Greg is in, that Ron wrote, and Ron, how's it being received? Very well. We're so happy and so thrilled. The reviews have been

fantastic, terrific. I really feel it's what you would call a critically acclaimed documentary. The people behind it have been wonderful. Shelf Factory and Barabarama, just wonderful people to deal with. And we're so happy and thrilled. And Thomas Hamilton, who also was involved with this as well as directing the film, he couldn't be here. He's in London.

Let's shout out Thomas. Yeah. Just great, great work. And it really turned out the way I wanted it to be. And I'm really happy with the end result. Good. Congratulations. And Gilbert, I was happy to see so many of our podcast guests in the doc.

The late Dick Miller, the late Orson Dean, Roger Corman, David, Leonard Maltin, Sarah, everybody turns up in there. Wonderful, wonderful film. And I hope everybody sees it, and we're going to promote it like crazy. Greg, Ron. Boris Karloff, The Man Behind the Monster. And Greg is in it too. Yes, playing in theaters across the country.

And Greg, what's coming up book-wise? What's coming up book-wise? What's coming up project-wise? We actually have a novel coming out called Frankenstein's Witch, St. Lizzie, Pray for Us, which takes place in 1931. So I'll leave it at that. You can imagine what is happening if it's taking place in Hollywood in 1931. I have another history film book coming out, Angels and Ministers of Grace Defend Us,

which has 13 chapters in it about various horror and fantasy and melodrama-related topics. So, yeah, I'm staying busy. People have to get Greg's books. We'll push them on social media. And so much wonderful history. And he interviewed everybody why try tell us quickly because we alluded to it tell us about elsa lanchester teaching you to hiss

how about that is that a distinction how about that yeah we went to see elsa lanchester i'd interviewed her for the book it's alive way back when and uh we went to see her and i think she you know realized that i was really in awe of being in her presence you know that that and she was really kind of enjoying the fact that i was, you know, just standing there all wide-eyed looking at her and all this. And I asked if I could, uh, you know, talk to her about, uh, about taking your picture. And she, she reached up and messed up her hair, sort of like the Bride of Frankenstein, first of all, to pose for the picture. And then later she talked about, uh, you know, the hiss and she said, let me, let me show you how I did it. And she said, no, it it's very much it's sort of like you're trying to to blow your nose but there's nothing in your nose

so you kind of blow through your nose and your mouth at the same time as human is very very you know uh complete coaching on how to hiss like the bride of frankenstein so she and i she and i stood in her living room in hollywood we both hissed at each other for probably five minutes and it was it was great yeah loved it and Karloff refused after Son of Frankenstein to play to put on the Frankenstein makeup ever again but then he showed up uh late in life to do an episode of Route 66. That's right. With Janie Jr. and Peter Lorre. And he got into the Frankenstein makeup for that. That's right. And he played in a ball game, in fact, in 1940, a celebrity baseball game in 1940 in Hollywood,

and put on the whole monster makeup. Jack Pierce put it on him and got him all dressed up and made up. And he went out and hit the ball, and all the infielders ran away in terror, and he ran away and got a home run and gil before we sign off i promise sarah and greg that you would uh this is not a karloff film but it is a universal classic i promised a maria unsponskaya impression the way you walk is stormy through no fault of your own. But as the rain enters the sea, the sea enters the stream.

So tears go on to a protestant end. Find peace for my soul. I have chills. And I'm sorry if I misquoted some of that uh also even a man who is pure at heart and says his prayers by night may become a wolf when the wolf pain blooms and the autumn moon is bright. Beautiful. I've never seen anyone dare imitate Maria Ouspenskaya. That is yeah, bravo. Wonderful.

It's more popular than the kids love it. We want to thank Sarah and Greg and Ron and Greg's very patient and wonderful wife Barbara Mank who was a big help. Rich Heron who's done us a huge solid by going to Sarah's house to help Sarah. Our friends Jim McClure and Dan Spaventa.

Richard Abramowitz, who's been a help through this. Jared Piantadosi, who helped with research. Everybody pitched in for this one. God, this was a treat, huh, Gil? Oh, yeah. in for this one uh god this was a treat huh gil oh yeah anytime you all three of you want to come back and talk monster movies uh anytime but let's promise sarah we won't bring up the black cat ever again can i bring up um frank Frankenstein 1970? Or Young Frankenstein.

Now, Gilbert, when you talk about that film, I know a lot of people don't like that film, Frankenstein 1970, but when Boris is down in the crypt and he gives that speech, that monologue, oh, that's gorgeous. Yes. That's great acting. Oh, he does that great, and it's such a bad movie, and he does a great job. It really is.

And the next time you're watching Blazing Saddles, notice Robert Ridgely's impression of Boris as the executioner from Tower of London. Right. That's all I got. This was an absolute thrill. Thank you guys for patiently enduring all the tech and all the challenges and to the team. It takes a village. Everybody that helped make this possible. Thank you.

Happy Halloween, everyone. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween. Boris, the gifts that he gave us, just continue. You know, I'd never seen Mask of Fu Manchu. Well, you got to.

It's wild. For Myrna Loyal, it's impossible for the men to give a bad performance. Thank you all. Gil, you want to sign us off? And this has been Gilbert Godfrey's amazing colossal podcast

with his co-host Frank Santopadre and our guests were Gregory Mank and Ron McCluskey and of course, Sarah Callow. I wish you guys could see Sarah laughing. Happy Halloween, everybody. Bye-bye. Thank you all.

Bless you all. Bye. I'm not so good in a crowd. But when I get you alone, you'd be surprised. alone you'd be surprised he isn't much at a dance but then when he takes you home you'd be surprised he doesn't look like much of a lover but don't judge a book by its cover He has the face of an angel But there's a devil in his eye He's such a delicate thing But when I start him to squeeze

You'd be surprised He doesn't look very strong, but when you sit on his knees, you'd be surprised. At a party or at a ball, I've got to admit I'm nothing at all. But in a Morris chair, you'd be surprised. He's not so good in a house But on a bench in the park You'd be surprised I'm not so much in the light But when I get in the dark, you'd be surprised.

On a streetcar or in a train, you'd think I was born without any brain. But in a taxi cab, you'd be surprised