Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Chris Lemmon and Charlie Matthau

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

To celebrate both Father's Day and the 100th anniversary of Walter Matthau's birth, Gilbert and Frank are joined by actor-musician Chris Lemmon and producer-director Charlie Matthau for a loving look at the lives and careers of one of cinema's legendary comedy teams, Jack Lemmon and Walter Matthau. Also: Jerry Lewis turns down "Some Like it Hot," Red Skelton passes on "The Sunshine Boys," Walter "compliments" Christopher Walken and Jack runs afoul of Virna Lisi's husband. PLUS: "The Fortune Cookie"! The Ukrainian Cary Grant! The music of Neal Hefti! The complexities of Blake Edwards! Walter rescues "The Odd Couple"! And VingRhames pays Jack an unforgettable tribute!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I don't think that two single men living alone in a big eight-room apartment should have a cleaner house than my mother. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast. I'm here with my co-host, Frank Santopadre, and we're excited to have two guests in this year's special Father's Day show. Chris Lemon is an actor, writer, and classically trained musician. He's appeared in dozens of films and TV shows, including Midnight Caller, Knotts Landing, and the hit Fox series Duet, as well as the movies Seems Like Old Times, Cannonball Run 2, Weekend Warriors, Swing Shift, Just the Ticket, and three movies which he shared the screen with his famous father, Air Force 77 dad,

and that's life. He's also the writer, star, and producer of a terrific one-man show based on his book of the same name about growing up with his legendary actor father, Jack Lemmon, A Twist of Lemon. Charlie Mathdow is an occasional actor as well as producer and director who has appeared with his legendary father Walter Matthew in films like Charlie Barrett, The Bad News Bears, and House Calls. He served as an associate producer on movies like Buddy Buddy, First Monday in October, and I Oughta Be in Pictures. He's also produced and directed the features Freaky Deaky, The Book of Leah, and Doing Time on Planet Earth, as well as three films featuring his dad, Mrs. Lampert Remembers Love, The Marriage Fool, and The Grass Harp. Between these two gentlemen, they've worked with a who's who of 20th century talents,

with a who's who of 20th century talents, including Blake Edwards, Charles Sterling, Christopher Plummer, Julie Andrews, Carol Burnett, Piper Laurie, Don Siegel, Roddy McDowell, John Boyd, Alan Burstyn, Martin Landau, and Lloyd Bridges, just to name a few. Now, Frank and I are thrilled to welcome to the show two talented artists and the sons of two of the most beloved performers to ever grace the silver screen, Chris Lemon and Charlie Matthau. Gilbert, do you need a rest after that? Jesus Christ. That's one hell of an intro.

My goodness. Welcome, gentlemen. Hiya, Frank. Hello, Charlie. Now, something just hit me in the introduction. I want to ask you, Charlie. Mrs. Lampert remembers love. And I seem to remember that Audrey Hepburn's name in Charade was Mrs. Lampert. Wow, Gilbert. Wow.

I remember your father hiding behind a pillar, holding a gun on Audrey Hepburn and Cary Grant, saying, Mrs. Lampert, they left me alone to die. I was in a Jamin prison. Five bullets in my stomach and legs. They knew I was alive. That's why I had to kill all four of them. Oh, man. Gilbert, the impression's a good one.

Gilbert, the impression's so good, I hate to break your heart and say that that character was Lampert with a P, and Charlie's movie is Lambert with a B. Oh, okay. But it was close. But nonetheless impressive. That was one great story. Seriously, Gilbert, I think you need, you've got to lay down for a second. Because this is, what an amazing opening.

Listen, it was an excuse to do as Walter. Yeah, Walter's Matthau, that's right. We're going to have dueling Matthaus on this show. Charlie, we've got to figure out, Gilbert said when we were talking on the phone, and by the way, welcome to both of you. We're thrilled that this is finally happening. We're thrilled to be here. Yeah, lovely to be here.

And Gilbert said, I think I auditioned for Charlie, but I can't remember on what. I don't remember. It was a movie of some kind thousands of years ago. We talking about the 80s, Gil? Before that, yeah. I think 70s. No, no, the 80s. It would have to be the 80s. He was a kid in the 80s, Gil? Before that, yeah. I think 70s. No, no, the 80s. It would have to be the 80s.

He was a kid in the 70s. Yeah. Charlie's not that old. Yeah. He's not because I'm older than him. Anyway, now. And I'm not that old. The two of you, unlike Martin and Lewis uh your fathers actually were friends of each other

very close friends and uh because i remember and and thinking of jerry lewis this is how i these synapses in my head this to you chris uh jerry lewis was originally asked to be in Some Like It Hot. And he that is. Yes. Yes. And tell us the story. Well, it's basically Jerry was was a much bigger star than my father at the time. But there was just something about pop and the way he clicked with Daphne that really turned Billy on. So it really boiled down to Marilyn getting the role. They had no idea they were going to get a star of that stature. And when she said yes, Pop was in. But Jerry wasn't nuts about the idea of doing this. As a matter

of fact, he was, uh, quoted as, as, as saying drag isn't funny. And then my father, uh, after that, uh, said, geez, Jesus Christ, you know, um, every time at Christmas, I send Jerry a box of chocolates. I love that. And I heard there was a card that he'd send Jerry Lewis to that would, same message every year. You know, I did that whole gimmick much funnier in the show. So, you know, I just have to say, you know, there's no audience feedback here. You know, the lighting is lousy. But, no, what he said, he sent a card.

I heard he sent a card with the chocolates to Jerry saying thank you for being a schmuck. Oh, that's, no, that's Billy. Every time Billy would see Jerry on the streets, he'd say, oh, hello, that's Billy. Every time Billy would see Jerry on the streets, he'd say, oh, how schmuck. It was a whole different era back then, I'll tell you. Gil, I was wondering if you found that anecdote, that Jerry Lewis. Can't put a Jerry Lewis anecdote past you, Gil. Tell us, gentlemen, there are conflicting reports about how these two friends

actually met charlie there's there's there's different versions of this depending on who you ask well they met in billy's office yeah he was at it uh i've heard different versions too i heard to a jewish deli and jack ordered uh fried shrimp and a chocolate right oh that's beautiful yes that's that that's the story that's the story because mine is boring compared to that you have a fried shrimp and a chocolate frap A fried shrimp and a chocolate frap, as Walter would say. But, Chris, there's the great story that you told on The Odd Couple DVD commentary about when they finally got to work together on the fortune cookie and Walter was laid up. Walter had had the heart attack and he was from his bed. He asked Jack to do him a solid?

Yeah, yeah. No his bed, he asked Jack to do him a solid? Mm, yeah, yeah. No, actually, hold on a second. Tell me about that. I don't know that one. When he gave him the bag. The bag? When he gave him the paper bag. Oh, yeah, yeah.

No, this story I was about to tell is much funnier than that. Oh, okay. Let's go with that one. No, uh, it's, uh, you know, Walter, uh, uh, on, uh, Fortune Cookie. The first one was, was, um, what the hell was it? Was it Fortune Cookie? Yes, it was Fortune Cookie. Yeah. And, uh, uh, but on the one you just mentioned, the one where they played the two buddies and the cop and stuff like that, Billy Wilder's film.

Oh, for God's sake, I've forgotten it. But anyway, buddy, buddy. Yeah, buddy, buddy. They Walter was supposed to do a stunt. They both were where he came down a laundry chute and landed on a platform. on a platform and when they, you know, when they actually did the shot, Walter hit that platform so hard that he rolled off of it and fell about a good seven to eight feet down to the ground and was knocked unconscious.

And my father, you know, was beside himself and ran over to him and ripped off his jacket and gently put her under his head. And Waltz's eyes started to flutter open. He asked, Waltz, Waltz, Waltz. Hold on. Huh? No, I know, but it's got to be the right timing.

My wife is now criticizing me for the other way. Jesus Christ. Chris's wife is offering tips. Okay, here we go. That part's going to get cut out. Jesus Christ. Chris's wife is offering tips. Okay, here we go. That part's going to get cut out.

So Waltz hits the thing and falls off a good seven or eight feet and is knocked unconscious. And my father rips off his jacket, gently slides it under his head and says, Waltz, Waltz, are you comfortable? Waltz looks up at him and says, I make a living. Charlie, you were there. You were associate producer on Buddy Buddy. Yeah, I was in charge of the slide.

That's why I got it. I must be in the minority because I know Buddy Buddy is maligned, but I like it. I like it too. I haven't seen it in a long time, but I like it i like it too i haven't seen in a long time but i thought it was funny yeah when whenever i watch uh anything with on talk shows with uh walter math how and jack lemon it seems it kind of reminds me of how jack benny was with ge Burns, like anything Burns would say, Benny would be doubled over. And it seemed like that when Jack Lemmon would listen to anything Walter said.

Well, they truly were the best of friends. And I know Charlie will back me up on that one. And it basically, it was just that they were both so opposite each other, that any movement or comment or anything like that would instantly break the other one up. And I mean, just losing it, you know, rolling about in laughter. And, you know, it was, they were such odd couples to begin with. You know, my father going to a Jewish deli and having fried chimps and a chocolate frat. And, you know, and Waltz is like straight out of Odd Couple, you know, and that wonderful scene that they do in the deli where he's just kind of looking around with the you know the musician jesus christ could you shut up felix for god's sakes um and it was you know it was wonderful to be around them because uh you know this this whole duality was oh shit there goes my i love when you do your impression of walter chris because you can't help but have

a little of your dad poke through your voice, too. So it's like getting Matthau and Lemon together in stereo. Well, there's so just the point, you know, I mean, my father, it's Jesus, Jesus Christ. Would you would you please put yourself together? Because people. And then Walter would look at him and say, would you shut the hell up, Lemon, for God's sakes? You're making a fool out of yourself. You know, I mean, just that whole kind of juxtaposition is magical. It's the stuff of magic, you know.

They had a, I heard you say on the soundtrack, on the audio commentary, that they had a certain Mutt and Jeff quality like other great comedy teams oh yeah um i i you know comedy teaming charlie you should talk about this comedy teaming is timing wait a minute what's what's the single best thing about my career timing um that doesn't work with one person way so don't try it at home uh it can be very dangerous charlie um tell tell them you know the whole thing that made them so special as a comedy team and you you saw it with all the great ones uh you know tell tell them about pop and walt and the way they are well you hit the nail on the head. They're opposites, right? Yeah. Watching The Odd Couple again, and you see that Jack is manic and animated

and full of angst, not just as Felix, but in a lot of his comedic performances. And Walter is laid back and laconic. And so there's really a great contrast in their styles, in their acting styles, in their deliveries. Walter had their acting styles and their deliveries walter i think that has something that has to have something walter did an incredible uh uh it's one

of the funniest 10 minutes i i think i've ever seen uh interview where he came in on pop it was with the english fella i forgot his name oh yeah parkinson yes and uh and waltz they introduced Oh, yeah, Parkinson. was the question? I forgot. I'm getting older. What was the thing? It was just a general. The odd couple. He said, Lemon had the harder part because he would say anything and then I would simply say one word and get the laugh. So Lemon had

the tough part to play. He really had to work. I wouldn't play that part if my life depended on um so but yeah yeah it's they uh they wanted to mix it up at one point and go and do stage and play each other's parts uh but that sadly never happened i would love to have seen that and didn't he didn't uh wal Walter ask to be Felix? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They wanted to switch it up and Pop would play Oscar.

What did Neil Simon tell your dad, Charlie? Can you see that now? Oh, I'm sorry, Charlie, go ahead. No, that's okay. Could you see that? If they did switch parts, you know, and my father comes in and turns to me and says, I wake up in the morning and there's little notes on my pillow

saying we're out of cornflakes. F you. It took me three hours to figure out that F you meant Felix Hunger. That's it? That's the reaction? This is a tough room Gina I might pull I might pull out of here

I'm getting very close and I always wondered what Matt Allen Lemon thought of Jack Klugman and Tony Randall oh they loved him I know Pop did I can't speak for Walt

Charlie did he like those two? Oh, he loved Jack. As a matter of fact, on Broadway, father, he called Neil back and he said, I want to play Felix because Oscar's too easy. And Neil said, well, do me a favor, Walter, and act on your own time. Great. Great line. I love I love that i love that and i and and speaking of acting and and sort of a a snappy comeback chris i love the story of your dad working for cukur and uh in the first movie and him saying give me a little less give me a little less or cukur kept saying jack would you give me a little bit? And they do the take.

And then, less, less, Jackie, darling, a little bit less. And my father finally turns to him and says, George, if I give you any less, I won't be acting. Cukor looks back at him and says, exactly. I love that. Yeah, it's lovely. It's a great story. Tell us how you guys, this is in the commentary, too, on The Odd Couple. And I thought I knew everything about The Odd Couple and everything about these two great actors, but found so much in that director's commentary.

Chris, you tell a great story of being on the school playground. Oh, yeah. And kind of gradually finding out who Jack Lemmon is. Well, I think that, and Charlie knows this, any stars kid that had a son or daughter of a star that had that stature that Pop and Waltz had knows this. It's this sudden realization that it's different, you know? And for me, that happened in, I think it was like fifth grade

or something i was attempting a pull up and this kid comes running up to me and says uh my father's a a a bigger star or no that see that kid over there his father's a bigger star than your father because he's jim west's He's Jim West's son from Wild, Wild West. I look at the kid and I say, well, yeah, he is. He's, you know, he's Jim West from the Wild, Wild West. And the kid, you know, snorts and walks away. And, you know, and I remember thinking to myself, I didn't know my father was a star. I thought he was just an actor. When the kid came up to you, you should have said to

him, don't be silly. Your father is my father. But it's a very, you know, it's kind of a bittersweet story because, yeah, it's funny. And it's so honest in the way the kids are. But it's a sudden realization that I think, you know, Charlie, tell me if you've had it, where all of a sudden you go, holy shit, my father's a superstar. And the one thing, you know, that kids want at that age is identification,

is a sense of that's who I am. So when it happens, you suddenly go, I'm not Chris Lemon, I'm Jack Lemon's son. And it's kind of a wild and disturbing realization at that age, at that tender age. Have I explained myself enough, Charlie? Yeah, I think we're good on that. Yeah, no, I've heard that from,

you hear that from a lot of, you know, sons and daughters of actors, like that in a way they're proud of their parents, but then they're like, well, what about me? I don't exist. That's it. And it can have a lot of interesting ramifications. You know, I adored my father. Charlie adored his father. That's it. And it can have a lot of interesting ramifications.

You know, I adored my father. Charlie adored his father. We were both lucky to have wonderful relationships with our parents. And they knew what was on, too. And, you know, without saying, OK, here's the situation and here's what I'm going to do. They had other ways of incorporating us into their lives and shielding us from that. Excuse me, excuse me. I need to get to Jack Lemon. Could you move out of the way? And for me, he took me up fishing once a year and we were divorced. My mother and father were divorced. And so it was, that adds a whole other layer to it as well. And slowly but surely we'd grown apart and slowly but surely we came back together

through those incredible fishing trips and later on playing golf every year at Pebble Beach. And we ended up becoming the very best of friends at the end of all of that. It was an incredible journey. And then, of course, just like Walter, Pop passed away at a very early age and he was gone. So after a lifetime of discovery and intimacy, when things finally got to where it was just perfect, passed away. So it's a wild story. I'm sorry to get all morose on this show.

No, not at all. It should be funny. I heard you say you haven't played golf or gone fly fishing since. No, not since he died. I tried a little bit. That's sweet. And it was just not the same. I mean, when you've played Pebble Beach with Jack Lemmon, it's just kind of downhill from there.

Charlie, you said on the DVD that you saw the fortune cookie as a kid and then you were in the car with your dad and trying to make the connection. Yeah. I said, Dad, the guy in the movie looks just like you. Yeah. I've always been a little slow now you guys go ahead now now uh your dad walter went to acting school with tony curtis and sydney poitier and uh there's a great story. I don't know if you want to tell it, or I will either, that Tony went away to Hollywood, became a major movie star, and then he came back, and he was riding in New York in the back of a stretch limo, and he saw your father and beat up clothes

charlie's laughing gilbert i think he knows the story i like the way you tell it yeah he his father walter mathaus walking in beat up clothes you know worn out shoes he I was walking in beat up clothes, you know, worn out shoes. He can't find work anywhere. And Tony Curtis goes by in the limo, rolls down the window and yells, Hey, Walter, I fucked Yvonne DiColo. Charlie, how many times have you been forced to listen to that story? Never told any better than that.

If you go on YouTube, you can see Tony telling that story on Letterman. Really? I think he told it on Bob Costas' talk show. It's a classic. Charlie, how do you keep those ear plugs in your ears so well? These earbud things are...

Jesus God, they're annoying. Yours are just sitting there perfectly. I have very big ears. Chris, do tell the story of the fortune cookie when your dad went to visit Walter in the hospital. Because it's kind of fun. I'm trying to remember what it is. He gives him the bag and he says, there's a guy I need you to go meet outside the studio gate. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. what it is. He gives him the bag and he says, there's a guy I need you to go meet outside the studio gate.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, well, every, you know, Walter did have a,

um, a deep love of the ponies, uh, and playing the ponies. And, uh, uh, at one point he'd had the heart attack on,

on, I think it was, what was it on Charlie? It was the first one, right? Fortune cookie. Fortune cookie. Yeah.

And so my father goes to see him and see how he's doing. And Walter looks at him and says, Jacques, I want you to do me a favor. I want you to see this bag here? I want you to take this. There's going to be a guy standing out front of 20th Century Fox tomorrow afternoon at 1 o'clock. I want you to give him the bag for me, okay?

My father, anything, anything he would do. So he shows up at one o'clock, and sure enough, there's this guy with the, you know, the pushed-over nose and the cauliflower ears, and he snatches the bag and rips it open, thumbs through a stack of $100 bills, then looks at my father and says, Oh, you's Jack Lemmon, aren't you?

You're my very favorite actor. How's about an autograph? And then my father says to himself, Jesus Christ, here I am, standing here in front of 20th Century Fox, and producers are driving by saying, Why is Jack Lemmon giving Walter Matthau's bookie an autograph?

These are hard stories to remember. I haven't done this show in about a year and a half. What's the Marty Baum story, Charlie, where your dad walked into the office? Oh, that's a true story. Marty Baum was his agent in the uh in the early 50s and uh uh he uh said i need fifty thousand dollars marty and marty said well yeah we'll get that for you don't worry about it he says no i need. He says, go look out the window. And there were those two guys that Chris was talking about with the cauliflower ears on the corner.

He says, if I don't get the $50,000 today, they're going to kill me. They ended up booking into a show called Tallahassee 7,000. It was not, it was not a appointment television. And everybody was wondering, you know, why did they get this Tony award winning actor? Why is he in Tallahassee 7,000?

And that's why. That's great. 50,000 bucks. That's great. I hadn't heard that story it's a great story we will return to gilbert gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this baseball is finally back get in on major league action and swing for the fences with bet mgm the king of sportsbooks. Log in or sign up to play along as BetMGM brings the real-time action. Embrace a season's worth of swings with BetMGM, your one-stop shop for all things baseball.

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to bring those machines over to Europe to, you know, to give to the boys, to keep the boys' morale up. And so because of my grandfather and my father's father, Europeans got donuts. Oh, my God. There you go.

Papa Jack. There you go. And Jack asked his father what he, he told his father he was going into show business. And I heard a story about this that. No, you tell it. Did you tell it? Oh. I don't remember. There's like a dozen of them.

Yeah. Jack Lemmon's father said to him, well, will this make you happy? And he said, yes. And he said, then go ahead and do it. Oh, yeah. That's a lovely story. Yes. He gave him his blessings. He wanted very much for my father to follow in his footsteps. And the line he gave him was, then go do it, but just remember, dads based movie characters on their mothers.

If I have this right now, Daphne in Some Like It Hot was based on your grandmother. And Charlie, do I have this right? That was your grandmother Rose? Yes. The inspiration for Willie in The Sunshine Boys? There's definitely a lot of Rose in Willie and the Sunshine Boys? There's definitely a lot of frozen Willie and the Sunshine Boys. That was such a brilliant performance. That is your favorite of his performances?

Charlie? Yeah, it's mine. Absolutely. Yeah. Why? Because it's just so damn funny. It's the funniest performance I've ever seen. Enter!

Give him a little bit, Gilbert. Give him a little of your Willie Clark. It wasn't the Marasco Theater. It was the Velasco. And it was in Yeah Yeah My

Baby. Al Lewis was a great actor. As an actor, you couldn't touch him. As a human being, you wouldn't want to. Tickle is not funny.

I was fascinating to find out that he found The Sunshine Boys depressing when he first read it. He didn't want to do it. This is what I saw in this wonderful documentary that I was telling you about, the Walter Matthau Diamond and the Rough documentary, where he said that,

but then Neil Simon told him that he had Jack Benny. Well, no, he saw it on stage. He thought it was depressing. Yeah, thought it was depressing. But then Neil Simon told him that he had Jack Benny, and he sent him the script, and my father was reading the lines out loud, and I was a little kid, and I was laughing hysterically. I just thought it was so funny.

So that made him think, well, maybe I could do something with it. You've seen that footage, right? and I was a little kid and I was laughing hysterically. I just thought he was so funny. So that made him think, well, maybe I could do something with him. You've seen that footage, right? There's no audio, but you should look at it too, Chris. It's fascinating to see the makeup tests. Oh, yeah. With Jack and Walter. Yeah.

And on the DVD, there's also Phil Silvers' auditioning. Really? For the Sunshine Boys. I assume, because it was what, Gilbert? Red Skelton and Jack Benny originally? Red Skelton and Jack Benny. One teamed up. Was it?

Or Jack Albertson, maybe? Jack Albertson did it on stage. Yeah. Yeah. But I think it was Red Skelton and Jack Benny, and Red Skelton thought the material, this is what we learned, that Red Skelton thought the material was too blue. But if you look at the DVD special, the extras, there's an audition, a screen test for Phil Silvers. Really? Red Skelton thought the Sunshine Boys

was too blue? That's the story we heard. Well, you know, that's very similar to what happened to Pop and Waltz for, which one was it, for Grumpy over me and Andy Garcia on the first green of Hillcrest because he was pissed off that the starter let us go as a twosome in front of his foursome. And so he almost ran us down. Yeah. Anyway, I digress. They put Burt. They put Burt Lancaster in. Don't mess with Burt, baby. But yeah, they were supposed to do it.

And they went to Don Rye, who directed it, and said, yeah, we want this. He says, no, the only way things are going to work is Walter and Jack. And they said, no, no, no, we know better, blah, blah, blah. So they held out and held out. And finally they go, okay, we'll do Walter and Jack. And both of them turned it down.

Unbelievable. No, it's true. So now the studio is going, what the hell is going on? You told us we had Walter and Jack. And it went back and forth for a couple of months. And in the meantime, Watcher Madingi has his office right next to my father's office. It was right next to it, not Burt Lancaster. Kirk Douglas. Douglas, who's an angel. Anyway, so finally, they keep bumping the price up, bumping the price up, bumping the price up. And they finally find out that both my father and Walter were going to do it, really wanted to do it.

They just wanted to get the price up. So they turned the table on the studio, which I think is a lovely story. They wound up putting Kirk Douglas,ouglas gilbert and burt lancaster old remember that where they were old gangsters yeah tough guys tough guys yeah with eli wallach yeah with eli wallach but the you know these casting decisions are crazy because uh charlie they wanted uh for the odd couple they wanted sinatra paramount was going to go with sinatra and jackie gleason untilason until your dad went to Howard Koch? Went to Howard Koch, and he said, do you want to be responsible for ruining the odd couple?

That's great. Cooler heads prevailed. That's great. Cooler heads prevailed. But it's also kind of sweet because when they made the fortune cookie, obviously Jack had the Oscar for Mr. Roberts. He'd been in The Apartment, which was Best Picture. He was a star. Your dad, Charlie, wasn't quite a movie star yet.

He'd had the Tony, but he was a celebrated stage actor. He'd played villains. He'd played heavies. He'd been in a lot of mainstream movies. But it's the sweet thing that Walter says to Jack, I've got the showier part here. Yeah, well, he said, why are you doing this picture? I've got a better part, and you're a much bigger star.

And Jack said, well, don't you think it's about time? I find that so sweet. That's a great story. I love that story. It's so sweet. And of course, Walter wins the Oscar. Well, not only that, in the middle of the movie, Walter had a heart attack

and they shut down the movie for three months and they wanted to replace him, but months and they wanted to replace him but jack wouldn't let them replace him so uh they they held out until uh jack wouldn't come back until walter came back and at the time you know the doctor at cedars lebanon at that time the hospital was saying um if he survives he can never work again. But Jack wouldn't hear of it, and he wouldn't take another actor. And Walter came back three months later and finished the movie and ended up getting the Oscar for it. That's such a good story.

What a story. The bulky coat because he had lost weight. Right, yeah. There's a scene in the movie where he walks in the door and then when he walks out of the door, he's 30 pounds lighter. That is a wonderful screen creation, that character. And you can't imagine anybody else playing Hinkle, Jack's character,

but you really can't imagine anybody else playing this shyster lawyer. He really owns that part he does indeed and did you get to know George Burns when they were working together I did I did I was very very blessed and he was uh just you know what you would uh I don't know if you knew him you might you might know but he was just what you would hope he would be your dad is clearly fond of him because you if again if you see these these interviews that you can find on youtube there's a so they're doing press for the sunshine

boys it may be that same host chris michael atkinson the british host and you can really see the love between these two guys yeah yeah they didn, they did. And, as a matter of fact, it was going to be with Jack Benny, and then Jack passed away. And so George replaced him. But, Chris, you got to know Burns a little bit, too, because Dad would take you to Hillcrest. He would walk through the room with a cigar bigger than his head and go to every single person. He made sure that everybody he said hello to, he was a mensch.

That's one of my favorite parts of your book is where you're talking about being at Hillcrest and these great classic old comics holding court like Danny Thomas and Miltie, and what, George Burns would time everybody? Yeah, well, that was on the night that Pop and I performed for his 95th birthday. But he was, you know, the king after Danny, not Danny, whom I think Jackie, Jack, help me out here. We just said it. I'm getting older, as you can tell. So these things, you know, it's not easy. In the book, you're talking about Danny Thomas was there.

Yeah, the round table. It was the Marx Brothers. And there were whole generations of people who, of these great, you know, huge, the comedians that came out of basically vaudeville. And, you know, and they tell stories. And that night they were all sitting back in the president's room and Pop and I walked in and Burns looks up and goes,

oh, look, a couple of lemons. And, you know, it was amazing. It was truly amazing. It was a gift. These parts of Charlie's in my life. And it was because of our fathers. And I was told, Frank, tell me if I'm wrong, that this interview is actually going to air on Father's Day. Close to it. Or thereabouts. As close to it as we can get appropriate the only thing i could think that would be more appropriate if there was such a thing as brother's day because i really do think these guys um had one of the most wonderful hilarious just incredible uh relationship um the out of the blue? And, you know, they, you know, meet each other at, I don't know. And then, you know, then Walter gets sick on the film and popped

to the story that Charlie just told. And they just stayed together. They hung, you know, through thick and thin. And, you know, I've got oodles of pictures that of the two of them, you know, just hanging out and playing with the grandchildren and stuff like that. It's it's it's a lovely story. So dad was an only child, Chris, and he and safe to say that that Walter was the older brother that he that't have. Yes, absolutely. And that's how he looked at him. Yes. Was that the dynamic, Charlie, that you sensed? Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, Walter did have a brother, Henry, but there was absolutely no question that Jack was every bit as much as his brother. Every bit as much as brother. He was very sweet to Gina after we were married. Her parents, Pat and Dan, they would come out to Los Angeles occasionally to visit. And, you know, and Pop and Walter and both their wives, Carol and Felicia, were very, very sweet to them. And it was so lovely to see, you know. As a matter of fact, I remember one story I'll tell really. We were all at Mateo's.

Remember Mateo's? Sure. It was a wonderful place in Westwood with the greatest steak on the face of the earth. And we were sitting at one of those half-round tables. I think you might have been there, Charlie. And, you know, my father, all of a sudden, he was like on the inside and my father all of a sudden disappears. And Pat, Gina's mom, feels something on her legs.

So she lifts up the tablecloth and looks underneath and it's my father. And she says, Jack, what are you doing? And he said, oh, I got to hit the head. I didn't want to disturb anybody. So he crawled out under the table, went to the head, and then crawled back in. That's great. Yeah.

The only one who noticed was Pat. Watching The Odd Couple. And, too, I thought this was interesting, Charlie, that Dad said that it was the perfect character for him. He thought it was the perfect marriage of actor and role, Oscar Madison. Yeah, he did. He did, even though he did try and talk Neil out of it and said it was too easy and he wanted to play Felix. It was it was the I think later on he referred to it as the plutonium that he needed to get where he wanted to be. about Edward Dmitryk too, because you were in film school, the famous Edward Dmitryk, director of Murder, My Sweet, and many other classic films, and your dad had worked with him.

Yeah, well, I was at USC, and Eddie was our instructor, and he just was, you know, just so much fun to listen to, a brilliant man, a very kind man. And he would tell us all these stories about Robert Mitchum, Marlon Brando. He directed the Kane Mutiny. I mean, great, great body of work. It's amazing. And so after the last class, I went up to him and I said, do you have any stories about my dad? And he said, yeah, he said at the wrap party of Mirage, I just, you know, whenever your dad would act in scenes with Gregory Peck, I couldn't take your eyes off, I couldn't take my eyes off your dad.

He just stole every scene. And I went up to him and I said, Walter, you're going to be the, one day you're going to be the greatest character actor in the business. And he thought my dad would be pleased by that. And instead, my dad looked at him and said, fuck you, Eddie. I'm going to be a leading man. Eddie was right. Well, no, my dad was right.

Five years later, he was a leading man, even though he didn't look like leading men were supposed to look at that time. They were supposed to look like Gregory Peck or Robert Taylor or Rock Hudson. Yeah, I mean, he's credited in some ways with paving the way for actors who weren't conventionally handsome to come later, like the Pacinos and the Dustin Hoffmans, who could be considered as leading men because Walter Matthau was a leading man. Yeah, he kind of paved the way for the antihero,

although he felt that he never wasn't, he didn't play an antihero, that he was popular in part because he just played the ordinary guy next door. Right. And before we jump off the odd couple, Gilbert. Yeah. How about a little bit of Oscar Madison for these boys? How about a little bit of Oscar Madison for these boys?

For six months, I lived alone in this apartment. I was despondent, depressed, and alone. And then you move in, my dearest and closest friend. And after three months of close personal contact, I'm about to have a nervous breakdown. Do me a favor, Felix. Move into the kitchen. You can have your pots, your pans, your ladles. Your meat thermometers.

What do you guys think? Now it's garbage. Yeah. Go ahead, Gil. Oh, God. Oh, your father, Chris, said that he thought movies years ago were more fun. Doing movies was more fun, doing movies. Oh.

More fun. I couldn't agree more. You know, listen, I adore movies. Now it's, you know, what it is. But back then there was a whole kind of, I don't know, maybe it was because then it was Samuel Goldwyn and it turned into Coca-Cola or Pepsi-Cola or whatever,

that the business somewhere in the eighties just kind of got business-ified and there was something just left. The whole kind of joie de vivre that everybody, I mean, these were guys who were going to like Formosa Cafe for lunch and having three martinis and, you know, and fried shrimp in a frap and then going back to work, you know, and hitting the boards and stuff. And I think that it really created such flamboyant and three-dimensional characters.

And now it just sort of seems like kind of flat. It just seems sort of two-dimensional. And business, it just seems like business. Do you feel that way, Charlie? You've made films. You've raised money for films. Do you feel you would have enjoyed yourself more in the old days under under the studio system oh well there's no question i mean you know i became a filmmaker you know i mean i

kind of missed the studio system but i came of age in the 70s and you know most of the movies that i just loved as a kid and made me want to become a filmmaker wouldn't get made today. You know, I mean, uh, good point. Think about all those movies in the seventies, one floor over the cuckoo's nest or Nashville or, um, sure. Even, even the godfather would have problems getting made today. I mean, you know, there's just a, I mean, I could, I could, I could give you 50 or a hundred seventies movies that were amazing that would never get made today including some of your dad's films including uh yeah probably most of them yeah yeah yeah i gotta ask you guys

that's a couple of questions i'll come back to uh we'll come back to more of g's fun impressions. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast, but first, a word from our sponsor. At this exact moment, you're just five minutes away from mouth-watering golden french fries. Five minutes away from crispy onion rings and potato tots, too.

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listening. With Dynamic Funds On The Money podcast series, you'll get timely insights to help you become a savvier investor. From retirement planning and investing to the latest market trends, the On The Money with Dynamic Funds podcast series covers it all get on the money search on the money with dynamic funds and follow today this is from our pal josh mills our mutual friend josh yeah son of edie adams who was very close to your dad yep jack uh chris and ernie kovacs. Josh Mills, he wants to ask Chris about Venice, Italy, 1984 at the Gritty Palace. And who was staying at the hotel that Christmas? Oh, Chris Watkins. Does that mean anything to you?

Chris Watkins was staying in Venice. Oh, Christopher Watkins? Yeah. Pop and I, I don't know how we ended. I was actually working over there. And then, you know, he came over and we just ended up at at uh we were there we were there for the tribute to ingrid bergman at the at the festival see he's young he can remember these things

i have that glorious excuse of of you know i don't know what, um, excuse me. Uh, hello operator. We've got a bad connection. Um, uh, but yeah, I don't remember you being there, Charlie. You were, what would you say? I'm very shy. No, you are not. But I, uh, yeah, I was there. You know, I think maybe it was just that I was so stoned all the time that it's just gone into like this cloud, you know. I remember Chris Walkins hitting me up for some pot. And, you know, and I said, I smoked it. It's gone.

It's all gone. It's just, oh, you know, Chris Walken. I don't do Chris Walken very well. But yeah, yeah, no, he's always coming around the corner. Josh says, as part of that question, ask Charlie what French ladybug means to him. French ladybug. Wow. God, how does Josh know that? That was a mind-reading trick that was taught to my father and I by Milton Berle, where it's a card-reading trick. That's it? You were there, Charlie. I can't give away the secret to the secret.

Oh, that's right. You can't. Milton will be rolling around in his grave charlie you were there you were with we were together when we were very young and milty and what was his wife's name uh ruth yeah ruth uh milty and ruth would come in and they didn't their own party in their house everybody else is in the other room partying away and they would come in and do tricks for us for like an hour. They would do these and they were incredible card tricks and, and press the digitation. Try saying that three times.

No, go ahead. What? Both my earplugs have fallen out now. I can't hear a fucking. Okay. I was just going to say hi to josh he's uh one of the great guys one of the great guys of the world and he is a wonderful guy we had him on

the podcast because it was ernie kovacs uh hundredth year oh yeah and it is now it is now the uh what is the word the centenary of walter mathau a hundred years uh that's right october 20 it'll be a hundred years. A hundred years. I'm coming up on that. My father was a very big fan of Chris Watkins. He sat next to him on an airplane one time, and Chris told me that he stared at him and he said, You're the guy that plays all of those Meshugganahs, aren't you? It must be very normal in real life to play all those Meshugganah.

Gilbert, do Chris Walkins. I can't do him. Do you do a Chris Walkins impression, Charlie? I wish I did, no. But he was one of my father's favorite actors and obviously one of mine, too. Yeah, he's a very talented actor. Gil, are you going to let them talk about Milton Berle and not ask either one of them the question? Okay, did either one of you see Milton Berle's dick?

No, but that's a biggie in more than one way. That's a biggie in more than one way. No, there's the famous story that it was him against Forrest Tucker, who was a rival country club. He was from Lakeside, and Miltie was from Hillcrest, and they literally had a whole big thing where they set up the unveiling. And I'm very happy to say that Miltie beat him by a head. Charlie, we'll assume that wasn't part of Miltie's magic trick. Uncle Miltie.

What a guy. I think we, Gilbert, you met Miltie. Yeah. So, okay, so we all got to meet Milton Berle. That's one thing we all have in common. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about, as children, Charlie, you were in Charlie Varick.

I was, yes. Yeah, yeah. And Chris, you were, as a kid, on the set of The Great Race. So I want to hear a memory from each one of you. By the way, I love that movie to death. Go ahead, Charlie. Well, Charlie Baric, there's a scene

where I play the kid that sees the getaway car and sees the license plate, and I go up to the sheriff and tell him. And then I notice that there's blood on the sheriff's forehead and I ask him if he's going to him. And then I noticed that there's blood on the sheriff's forehead, and I ask him if he's going to die.

And so we're about to shoot the scene, and the director, who is my favorite, and I think the most talented of all of the directors that my father worked with, he was the greatest filmmaker, Don Siegel. Oh, we're fans. Yeah. He said, oh, I just got a phone call. I'm going to have to take this call. Walter, why don't you direct this scene? So I start to do this scene with a wonderful actor, Bill Shallard. And I'm doing way too much and just, you know, creating my own brand of ham.

And my father's yelling and screaming at me, no, no, no, no. God damn it, Charlie. Finally, after about the eighth take, I looked at him and I said, when is the real director coming back? Oh, that's lovely. That's lovely. Oh, it's nice. Great. Chris, another movie, the many movies, the great movies your father did, but one

that was How to Murder Your Wife. Love it. The gloppida gloppida machine. Yes. did but one that's a was how to murder your wife love it yeah the glop of the glop of the machine yes yes and had a had a great musical score by the same man who did the odd couple uh neil hefty oh yeah yeah oh i didn't know that i did. You got that funny story in the book, Chris, about how to murder your wife with Verna Lisa's husband. Oh, Christ. Now, what was the setup for that? Oh, I remember this story. That her husband from Italy was visiting the set? It's one of those things that kind of flows out of the narrative of the story in the book.

Well, Jack was injured. He was injured doing a stunt that's it you're dead um yeah and uh it was when they were running around the roof um yeah and it was crazy and you know pop isn't exactly uh doesn't exactly not go for it um is the best way to say it i I mean, he's, you know, this man is pretty much bundled up dynamite. And, and so he just, he just goes flying off the roof to certain, falling to certain death. And there's a pipe and he puts his arm around it and literally stops himself from falling to the ground, ripping all the muscles, and it was lovely. So everybody says, go take a look. And he is.

Now, in the meantime, Verna Lisi's starring in the film, too, and she has a really jealous Italian husband. He's big, he's very large, and he doesn't speak any English, and he's convinced that she's having, you know, a little flirtatious thing with my father. And so my father, after this, instead of going into, all the dressing rooms looked the same. They had the little cottage dressing rooms on the set. And my father bursts into what he thought was his dressing room, but of course it was Verna Lisi's. And at that time, the jealous Italian giant

is sitting there watching Verna Lisi model something with no clothes on. She was completely naked and doing a turn, and he looks at her, looks at my father, looking at her, then looks at my father. And, you know, the Keystone Cops breaks out. It was literally, yeah, no, it was literally running around all over the place with the chasing. And, you know, it was like even if you saw a slow motion of it, you'd see,na flying past in her birthday suit and then five or six costume people after her and then her husband's after her. And then my father is hiding over in a corner.

And yeah, I think I've gone on enough about this, haven't I? It's the you know, that's, yeah. Watching. It was the old days. Back to that other question that Charlie and I were talking about. Old Hollywood. It was the old days. I mean, just this crazy stuff would happen.

It was just so much fun. And I think that really came across in the films as well, you know, with these marvelous characters. That's a fun one. That's a fun one. It's a wonderful picture. Richard Quine, I think, as memory serves. Dick Quine directed that one. Terry Thomas, a lot of fun in that one. And as Gil says, a great score.

Terrific. Yeah, it was a really, really fun movie. And Gilbert, you're very moved by Jack's performance in Save the Tiger, too. I know that's a movie you've talked about on this show. Terrific performance. Yeah, it was. And it was a real, you know, Pop had a few breakthroughs where it's just all of a sudden he just took people and whacked them across the face. And I'll say this as quickly as I can. Basically, his whole desire, based on his great hero, Jean-Louis Barreau, was literally to make you laugh and make you cry at the same time. He felt that's the interweaving

of comedy and drama was the ultimate of the art. And of course, that didn't go over back in the days of, you know know those days with the branding and all that stuff you know they want you know jack lemon you know hitting his face into another window and falling over and stuff and uh the first film where he was able to do that was his second film with billy wilder which was the apartment uh and... My favorite. Yeah, that was a very important film, not just for its social commentary, but for my father as an actor, because that's where he did it flawlessly.

Right, and then Days of Wine and Roses came right after that. That's exactly right. He was obviously, he had crossed over. He was obviously now being taken seriously as a dramatic actor. But the ultimate of all of them was Save the Tiger. Wonderful. That schmuck, that son of a bitch who wanted to burn down his clothing factory, you know, for the insurance money because he was going under, you know, what a story. That's a Save the Tiger is a perfect example of a film that wouldn't have been made today.

Yes, you're right, Charlie. Yeah. And let's talk about your career transformation of sorts, too, for your dad, Charlie, because he started appearing in in in action films, in films like The Laughing Policeman and films like Taking of Pelham 123, Charlie Varick showing showing his range. two, three, Charlie Varick showing, showing his range. Right. Well, uh, you know, uh, going back to it, I guess, uh, he, um, started out, uh, playing heavies and, uh, dramatic roles. And then some genius figured out that he could be funny. So then he was doing that. And then, uh, when he was able to kind of pick and choose his part, he did go back and do some dramatic roles. I know he turned down Dirty Harry because he thought it was too violent. Interesting.

But then a couple of years later, he made Charlie Berrick with the great Paul Siegel. And Chris, your dad turned down Cool Hand Luke? Oh, yeah. It's a hell of a story. But he was so impressed with the script and he knew who should play the lead instead of him. So he ended up producing it. It was a J-Lim production. Why did he turn the role down?

He felt that there was another actor who could do it better and who was more right for the part. And, of course, that actor was nominated for an Academy Award. Your dad was generous that way. He would recommend another actor for a part. Yes, and he had great instincts. That was one thing I got to say about Popman. I just think that he was so delicious as a human being

that he had incredible luck. And he was so talented. You know, luck doesn't happen. Luck is made by hard work and good instincts and also walking into the right room at the right time. And Pop had that. And he made some really amazing decisions during his time. And that was one of them and both lemon and math now both were able to do both comedy and drama equally well equally well yeah you go charlie you talk about that well charlie and i were talking about uh

about cactus flower and and a new leaf on the phone yesterday i believe he uh they wanted uh carrie grant for cactus flower uh yeah that's right and then carrie had uh had retired already and didn't want to come back right yeah i mean and i'm watching that and i'm thinking and and to go from carrie grant to walter mathau but you don't miss a beat. My father used to insist that he was the Ukrainian Cary Grant. Here's an oddball Walter Matthau role, the drunk at the bar in Earthquake.

Yes. And he did not take the credit, the screen credit, Walter Matthau. Well, he kind of got tricked by the producer of that, who was his buddy, and he was,

he said, can you do a cameo, you know, just come down for a few hours and play a drunk at the bar, and, you know, we'll give some money to charity, and he did that,

but then, I guess unbeknownst to him, they did a lot more filming with his double. And then they cut it in all over the movie. So you keep cutting back to the bar so it looks like it's a real part. And my dad was very pissed off. He said, well, you can't use my name i'm going to give you a name that you can use so he made something up with as many syllables as possible that's a great story you know what the other story i love about uh was was uh chris your dad's in a movie

called alex and the gypsy yeah which he wasn't terribly fun no no that's he he and so he took uh to the screening uh he took uh his best friend walter um and and you know and pretty much held his hand uh through the whole thing and sure enough it was you know it was a pole and uh uh and and so finally he turns to waltz and says so what do you think waltz thinks about it a second turns to him and says get out of it i remember i didn't meet either one of your fathers, but I remember being like just a few feet from them at this Big Brother event that used to be insane all-star. And I don't know if you'd remember any of this, but I just overheard your father, Walter, saying that there was some kind of chocolate that he liked. I think it was made in Europe and he would like allow himself like one a year.

Because, you know, he had a heart condition. Does that mean anything, Charlie? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, we had an ongoing dialogue about his diet. I can tell you that if he said he only had one a year, I think that might have been a little fib. Gilbert, was it killing you to not go over and introduce yourself? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the two of them i thought uh they're not real you know it's that they're two big stars they can't exist in real life what was steve martin's a great line at the afi tribute um where he's he's sitting in the uh commissary at uh at paramount and looks up and sees my father, Walter and Billy Wilder walking towards him and I said to myself

oh god, not these guys again Is that the tribute that ended with the punchline Jack Lemmon's got a great ass You know what I'm referring to? Oh yeah, that was Walter's speech Was that Walter's speech?

Yes. And he turns and walks away from me, and I remember thinking to myself, Jack Lemmon's got a great ass. That's the one. Chris, how touched was he, and you can see it on YouTube, too, we'll tell our listeners, when Ving Rhames did that lovely thing at the Golden globes well and surprised everybody yeah he was more stupefied than anything um uh and he adored being

thing and and and uh was really did think as we all did that he deserved that award um uh but i you know i just think it's great that he walked up to him, took it, and said, and I'm going to keep it too. He seemed so flabbergasted. Yeah, he really was. And I don't know if he ever gave it. It was a lovely moment. And it was the right thing to do if you're a young actor and you're up against Jack Lemmon, for Christ's sake. Give him the award.

That's what he was. I think both of them uh both pop and walter were they um you know they they played all these marvelous characters and quirky and this and that and touching and heart-rending uh both of them and uh and but underneath they were very very generous uh man uh i i really do believe you said two out of two and a billion charlie that that's the that's the kind of guys they were that's about right yeah i like that very generous man. I really do believe. You said two and a billion, Charlie. That's the kind of guys they were. That's about right, yeah.

I like that line. Yes. Quick, another quick question from a listener. Simon Thaler would like to know if Charlie has any stories from his appearance as a killer bee on Saturday Night Live when his dad hosted. And that's a great episode, by the way. You know, I wish I did. I don't have any great stories from that other than it was an amazing time.

And he would also like to ask Chris what it was like to portray the younger version of his dad in Gary David Goldberg's film, Dad. Well, you know, Gary was producing the show that I was in for Fox at the time, which was pretty popular, called Duet. Duet, sure. I used to watch Duet. Yeah. And he said, would you come and do this? And I said, sure. And he said, will you ask your wife

if she could play Olympia Dukakis? And sure enough, Gina said yes. And we showed up in Duxbury, Massachusetts. And it was a magical two days. It was just joyous. So much fun. And really kind of very touching, you know, to be able to, you know, to play him. But then my father found out about it.

And there was hell to pay. He said, what the fuck are you doing out there jesus christ who who let this little bastard do that shit chris your one-man show which i will recommend to our listeners and they can they can find it on youtube is just and the book well that's not a fully produced uh rendition of the show that was just you know something we threw together. But it's great. There's so many wonderful moments in it.

Charlie saw it. Charlie came to see my show. Amazing. It was in its infancy. It's got music. It's got stories. There's that great Marilyn Monroe story with the helicopter. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, true story. Yeah, it's full of great stories and the book is very very touching i'm curious too he directed walter the one time he got in the director's chair of course was kotch uh and charlie what were you telling me that he uh he couldn't find he couldn't find a lead he was having trouble getting the movie off the ground and your dad said i if you need somebody uh for the part you know i'd love to do it and uh he hadn't thought of that of course at the at the time walter was 30 years younger than the right character yeah very sweet portrayal yeah very and it's a nice little film. Chris, why did he not direct again?

You know, I think I think he did a good job. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good film. Another one of those 70s movies that would never be made. Of course. Again. But it's that's you know, I mean, directing Charlie's more more more more able to answer this question than me. Directing is tough, man. I mean, you're there from the inception. It's just ridiculous, you know, hard work for months and months and months and months. And I think, you know, Pop just went, Jesus Christ, I don't want to do this anymore.

He does have a fun cameo as a sleeping man on a bus. Yeah. Yeah, it was a nice film. And I think it was very poignant as well. Sweet film. I recommend it. Charlie, how the hell did your mom become the inspiration for Holly Go Lightly and Breakfast at Tiffany's? Well, it was her personality, not her occupation.

Right! She was best friends with Truman Capote, and they used to go out at night, and in the morning they'd walk by Tiffany's, and he liked her very flighty personality. And then you got to, years

later, adapt a Truman Capote story, and you got to direct your dad and Chris's dad, The Grass Harp, which we also recommend to our listeners, which is very, first of all, a dream cast and very well made. Thank you. Yeah, no, I was incredibly lucky

to work with such great material and with the best actors. Even Piper Laurie was amazing in that. She said that was her favorite role. Wonderful, wonderful cast. She's one of my favorite actresses, and she was, of course, also nominated in Cool Hand Luke, right, which I didn't realize until this program

that Chris's father produced. Yeah. There you go. We're nothing if not educational. What is it called? Tourist geography. That's the wonderful thing about, you know, what we tried to answer your question about that,

you know, what's the difference? And there certainly is. But it just seemed like it was more kind of a band of troubadours back then. You know, the show must go on. And there was this whole spirit that kind of... And I kind of miss that, especially in this time where nobody's even going to the movies anymore. You watch it on your TV.

Not now. What was Blake Edwards like, Chris? And then we're going to ask Charlie to tell us something about Billy Wilder. Well, he was one of the funniest guys you could ever hope to meet. He had all sorts of personal demons and all of his films reflect him going through one stage or another, especially That's Life, I think, is really true of that. Pop plays him brilliantly. Yeah. Nice to see you in there, too.

But he would tell stories in between takes that you just, I was, you would cry with laughter. It was, you couldn't stop laughing. You were worried for your health when Blake told a story because, you know, you couldn't get enough oxygen in. I remember him talking about one time when he wanted to commit suicide. And I think had he broken his foot, he had a big cast on his foot, and he decided the way he was going to commit suicide was to jump off one of the mountains in Pacific Palisades. And so he pumped himself up and pumped himself up and started running and stepped in a hole and broke his other foot.

So he literally was walking around with two casts on. That was hilarious. I love The Great Race. You know, we used to do little mini episodes of this show where Gilbert and I would just kick around. We'd just talk about movies we loved. Gilbert did an episode about Save the Tiger. Remember, Gil?

Oh, yes. He did an episode about How to Murder Your Wife. We did an episode about The Great Race and one about Charlie Varick. One other thing we did on this show, like one of the great musical scores of all time was The Odd Couple. Everybody recognizes the theme music. And have either one of you heard the lyrics

to The Odd Couple? Did you know there were lyrics? I didn't know that. Didn't Marvin Hamlis write that? No, it was Neil Hefty. Did he write there were lyrics? I didn't know that. Didn't Marvin Hamlis write that? No, Neil Hefty. Did he write the lyrics also? Whoever wrote the lyrics, I don't think would tell anyone. They weren't the worst lyrics.

It was something like, when people see us walk, they think we're an odd couple. It was something like that. Well, glad it wasn't anything too on the nose. Oh, it was horrible. Yeah, thanks. Charlie, here's another one for you from a listener. Sean Patrick Little, I love Charlie's film Freaky Deaky. I must ask about the challenges of adapting someone like Elmore Leonard to the screen.

Well, again, I was really blessed to work with great material. And I remember the premiere of Freaky Deaky at the Tribeca Film Festival. And afterwards, they did the questions and answers. And I had no idea who was going to be there. But who was in the front row but Mr. Chris Lemon. Yeah, I kind of screwed up the whole surprise thing by sitting. It was a hell of a film, Charlie. I adored that film.

It's a fun movie with another really great eclectic cast. If you're looking for a classic Elmore Leonard movie, it's not Freaky Dinky, but if you're just looking for a fun 90 minutes, I think it'll do. It's fun with a kinky kind of cast. I mean, Crispin Glover and Andy Dick and Christian Slater. And everybody's having fun. Yeah, it was a good time. Clearly.

I've got to ask you guys about this lovely thing that Larry Gelbart said at Walter's at your dad's memorial service. He said the Redwoods are falling and not soon to be replaced yeah yeah and and i think and gilbert and i you know we get not melancholy but we were you know this is a nostalgia show and we certainly you know it's it's we look back at things that that used to be and never will be again. I think it's safe to say these two guys just irreplaceable.

Yes, they were. No question. Very, very tall Redwoods. Yeah. And they were your best friends, too, both of you. Big time. Yeah. Absolutely.

Safe to say. You said something interesting on the Odd Couple commentary, Charlie. You said there were three people on screen together. There was Matthau, there was Lemon, and then there was this magical entity that they created together. Did I say that? Isn't that profound? That's pretty good, Charlie. Look at you.

Look at you. You know, I just think it's wonderful, though, that they were able to end with just such a delightful film with grumpy old men and with Burgess and, you know, and all that that had such heart to it. But at the same time was a truly funny film. funny film it it it spoke in my opinion um uh about them as friends and people uh uh and did it in such a delightful way uh i know they went on to do some other stuff after that but that one i think was really in my opinion um and uh yeah so cheers cheers to them what to each of you what lemon uh what lemon movie for you, Chris? If you're channel surfing, if you stumble across it, what can you not turn off? What is the one that you have to watch? It's the big one.

I really truly think Pop's big film. And I talk about it in that way in the show. I don't do the show as me. I do the show as him. Yes. And so he's reminiscing. And yeah, that was the show. You know, I don't do the show as me. I do the show as him. Yes. And so he's reminiscing. And yeah, that that was the one that was the one where he was able to achieve his highest goal as. And was he proudest of that one? I mean, I know he was proud of Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross and Save the

Tiger. And yeah, actually, or at least Mitch says he said this. I don't know. It's a little questionable, but no, he thought Tuesdays with Maury was. Oh, wow. He did good work in that. One of his favorite. Yes. And it's a beautifully written piece.

And Mitch is now really mad at me. I think The Apartment's my favorite movie. Charlie, same question. You're sitting around, you're in a hotel room, you got the SpectraVision going, or you're knocking around on the channels. And what is the movie you cannot turn off? And also, part B of that question is, what performance do you think he was proudest of? I know he wasn't sentimental about his performances, and I know he wasn't a guy to look back. Well, I guess you don't ask the barber if you need a haircut, right? So he would say that his favorite movie was The Grass Harp, but I'm sure that's because I directed it.

My favorite performance of his was uh sunshine boys and um one a couple of favorites that he had uh that seemed to kind of maybe don't get the attention that they deserve are um lonely are the brave oh yeah with kirk douglas and that was also kirk favorite movie. And A New Leaf, which now you can get on Blu-ray, which not a lot of people have seen, but is brilliant. Love it. Love that one. And what was he really proud of? He was proud of most of the movies that he, that he made with Jack. Um, he was proud of the grass heart because I directed it and I didn't, I didn't screw

it up too bad. Um, and, uh, he loved, uh, you know, lonely or the brave face in the crowd. Um, yeah. Gilbert reminded me today. He's in a face in the crowd. He's, um, he's, I mean, it's, mean, he didn't, he, you know, was very modest. And he didn't say how proud he was of this performance. You know, there's probably 10 or 20 of them that will never be forgotten.

What does your mom say when he would tell your mom what a great actor he was? She said, yeah, so was Shirley Temple, and she was six years old. Oh, this is a treat. You guys want to talk? Charlie, tell us about your charity. charity? Oh, you know, I am for any charity that would get the government to spend more on cancer research and NIH funding, because, you know, we spend I think we spend something like 700 billion on defense every year. And as important as that is, we're probably going to have a much greater chance of getting cancer in our

lifetime. It's now one in every one out of two. So, yeah, you know, I think we ought to spend more on that. I think we spend maybe 5% on medical research and what we spend on defense. And I wish we could spend a little more on medical research.

What is the organization that you work with? I work with several. One is the American Cancer Society Political Action Committee. Society Political Action Committee. And I work with the Maria Gruber Foundation and other charities like that. But, you know, the federal government, we expect the federal government to do grand and wonderful things. And I think that that would be an area that we could get some more bipartisan support on and, you know, maybe solve the cancer problem in our lifetime. Good for you.

Yeah, actually, who was our doc friend, Gina? It's over at Yale. Richard Edelson, who was the head of the Yale Cancer Department, whatever the hell it's called, said exactly what Charlie just said to him when we were having dinner, and that he feels within his lifetime that there will be a cure for cancer. Let's hope. Chris, tell us about your kids.

They're actors. You know, it's amazing. You know, you have a couple of kids, and then they turn out to be such a pain in the ass. The lemon lineage. Yes, they all want to be actors, which means I support all three of them. No, I'm kidding. My daughter, Sydney, has just finished starring in Marvel's new TV series. About that.

It's coming out pretty soon on Hulu and this, that, and who the knows anymore? What the hell do you watch on? You know? And my youngest, John, is showing real, real promise as an actor. He's just starting up. He's not quite as old as I could have had because I'm very old. But that joke isn't funny anymore, is it? But my middle son, thank God, is sensible, and he's got like a real job where he now works from home and makes lots of money.

So they're all rich as hell, and I'm broke. So I can't afford to give the charities. I don't have it. I'm my own charity. I give to myself. I'm my own charity. I give to myself. Well, I am going to plug your book, which people can still get on Amazon,

A Twist of Lemon, a tribute to my father, which is beautiful and funny and filled with great anecdotes. Charlie is threatening to write a book about his dad. Are you, Charlie? Next Father's Day, maybe it'll come out. 2021. Good for you. I would love to see that. Please do. I'm writing one too

are you another one another memoir i don't know if you're allowed to do that i don't know if you're allowed to write two memoirs it's because i think the first one was so they might they might think that i'm like a little you know full of myself so uh yeah yeah. This one was great, and I can't wait to read the second one. Thank you, Charlie. It's a great read. You look good, kid. I'm going to give you a call. We haven't spoken in a long time.

Yeah, I know. I don't know if you look at your Facebook messages, but I left you a couple. I didn't want to bother you. Yeah, I haven't looked at that in like a year. But I'll go back on there. But yeah, I'll call you. I miss you.

And I love you. Do you have the same number? Same number. Why don't you give it to me again so I can make sure I've got it right. Well, give it to him off mic. We got to recommend this body of work before we get out of here. Gilbert and I have done 317 of these now, Gil. Oh, Christ.

I think this is 318. And believe it or not, we've got a nice audience on Sirius Radio, and we've got a nice podcast audience, and people listen to our film recommendations. So this body of work, Mr. Roberts and Failsafe and The Odd Couple and Pete and Tilly and Save the Tiger and A New Leaf and The Fortune Cookie and Cactus Flower and The Apartment and Some Like It Hot and The Taking of Pelham 123 and we could go on and on and on. You guys have to find these films and watch them because they're special and they probably would not get made under today's circumstances, which is tragic. Yeah, good point. get made under today's circumstances, which is tragic. And we have to thank some people who helped make this

possible, which is Josh Mills and Chuck, your manager, Chris. Chuck Binder. Yes. Chuck Binder, we gotta thank. And my friend Barry Greenberg, who put us in touch with Charlie and, as always, the indispensable John Murray. And Gilbert,

do you have a little Walter left in you? Ha ha ha! Have you used John Murray. And Gilbert, do you have a little Walter left in you? Have you used all your bullets? Gilbert, you do Oscar and I'll do Felix. Oh, oh, oh my God. Finally removed that spaghetti from my poker table. You see, you see, you see? That's exactly what it is. It's not spaghetti. It's linguine. Now it's garbage.

Charlie's in clover. Look at him. This was fun. Yeah, it was. Gilbert, anything else you want to ask these gentlemen uh let's see i mean it it's just not so much ask but it's so funny to look i mean the way both of you look and the mannerisms and the voices it really is like uh talking to jack love and walter yep it's so funny to watch we almost did the odd couple charlie and i oh that would have been amazing yeah we we did um but they you know they didn't have any money well gilbert and jason alexander who we had on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, have threatened to go on tour in the Sunshine Boys.

Oh, that would be lovely. Guys, this was a wonderful Father's Day show. And, you know, we're thrilled to meet you both. Well, thank you, Frank. And Gilbert, a real honor to be on your show. I think it's terrific. And thanks for having me. Oh, thank you.

And me too. Thank you so much. It was a lot of fun. I will recommend one more thing to our listeners. On YouTube, they can find Chris, a lovely tribute that you and Shirley MacLaine did to your dad at the AFI. Yeah, that was the one when Steve Martin did his, you know. Yes, which is so sweet, so beautiful to watch. The body of work that's out there is available to everybody, guys.

So go find it. Go check it out. And thank you. And I'm Gilbert Gottfried, and this has been Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host Frank Santo Padre. And we have been talking to Chris Lemon and Charlie Mathau. ¶¶ Thank you. © transcript Emily Beynon