Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Malcolm McDowell: Part 1

Episode Date: September 14, 2020

Gilbert and Frank welcome a long sought-after guest, actor Malcolm McDowell, who weighs in on a number of topics, including the eccentricities of Stanley Kubrick, the birth of the Beatles, the intensity of James Cagney and the "friendship" of Danny Kaye and Laurence Olivier. Also, John Lennon enjoys a laugh, Ian Holm holds a grudge, Mick Jagger considers "A Clockwork Orange" and Gilbert and Malcolm send up Jack the Ripper. PLUS: The Liverpool Stomp! "Yankee Doodle Dandy"! The generosity of Albert Finney! The comedy of Derek and Clive! And Malcolm performs a "phallic monologue"! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried and this is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. You know, since we started this show way back in 2014, there have been certain guests that have risen to the top of our want list. And we couldn't be happier that we finally landed one of them. And we couldn't be happier that we finally landed one of them. He's an occasional writer and producer and one of the most prolific, dynamic, and admired stage and screen actors of the last half century. big and small screen, appearing in TV shows like Frasier, Entourage, Monk, South Park, Psych, Franklin and Bash, Community, Heroes, and Mozart in the Jungle. But it's in feature films that he's made a lasting and unforgettable impression, made a lasting and unforgettable impression, appearing in well over 100 motion pictures,

including Oh Lucky Man, If, A Clockwork Orange, Caligula, Britannia Hospital, A Voyage of the Damned, Time After Time, Get Crazy, Cat people. The player, the company, Star Trek generations. I'll sleep when I'm dead. Halloween and the artist and bombshell. In a long and very active career, the man has betrayed everyone from HG Wells to Rupert Murdoch. He's tangled with Michael Myers and Jack the Ripper, bumped off Captain Kirk and pissed off Gene Kelly. He's worked with James Mason, Stanley Kubrick, John Gielgud, Robert Altman, Lindsay Anderson, Helen Mirren, Laurence Olivier, Blake Edwards, Anthony Quinn, Orson Welles, Christopher Lee, and Peter O'Toole, just to name a few. He's even worked with me, Gilbert Gottfried, which must have been a thrill for him. Frank and I are excited to welcome to the show a screen icon, a gifted raconteur,

and a man who says he's enjoyed just about every film he's ever made, even the crappy ones. The legendary Malcolm McDowell. Hi, hello. Well, that was quite an intro. Thank you, and you make me feel very, very old. And I have done a lot of films, you're right. Welcome, Malcolm. Thank you. Now, do you remember? You probably don't remember. And you probably have it blocked out of your mind. We worked together on one episode of Saturday Night Live. Oh, my God.

I remember. Thank you for bringing it up. One of the worst things I ever did. And, you know, Gary Oldman called me and said, they've offered me Saturday Night Live. What do you think? I went, stay away. They're terrible. They don't.

They write the worst stuff. It's not funny. And, you know, unless you're a stand-up comedian and come with your own stuff, forget it. But it was sort of fun. You know, the only thing I remember about that was playing John Lennon, who was a house husband, and he was going, McCakes, McCakes, I burnt McCakes.

I think McCakes are burning. And all that. And that was on the Saturday. On the Monday, he was murdered. And it always made me feel really bad that, you know, I sort of took the piss gently out of John Lennon, who was, of course, a hero of mine,

like he was to most people of my era, you know. And it was, I think, 20 years later that I they've discovered some BBC interviews that he'd done on the Sunday where he said, oh, we watched Saturday Night Live and they did a skit about us. We did laugh. Didn't we, Oko? Didn't we, mother? Oh, well, we watched Saturday Night Live and they did a skit about us. We did laugh. Didn't we, Yoko? Didn't we, mother? Oh, well, that's a little bit of a saving grace there, Malcolm. It was.

It actually made me feel so much better. I remember one of the horrible lines in that John Lennon sketch was that Yoko is making hot cocoa. And your line is, Yoko is making hot cocoa, and your line is, Yoko the cocoa. That was the level of the writing. As I say, I didn't write it, but, you know, look, if you agree to do it,

you just go in and just hope you're not going to be thrown too much to the lions. And if you are, big deal. Who cares? It wasn't the show's finest hour. No, it wasn't. No, and it was just change of cast. Yeah.

So it was somebody called Johnny Rocket or something. Charles Rocket. Joe Piscopo, Charles Rocket, whatever his damn name was. Yeah. Yeah, not the restaurant guy. Maybe he went on and opened some restaurants afterwards. He made quite a killing. Gilbert was one of those cast members in The Change.

Yeah, yeah, I know. Well, Gilbert, hey. But so was Eddie Murphy, right? Yes. Correct. That's what I keep telling myself. Well, listen. Hey hey you survived it i survived it oh so thank you that's all one can say and and i gotta bring up one other sketch that in a season of horrible sketches this are you still talking about this show yes I thought we'd moved on

no I have to mention okay I have to mention this sketch because you were in this one is this the Jack the stripper Jack the stripper yeah yeah we're all the men wearing women's clothes and Oh, that's because every Englishman has to leap into drag, as you know. I did my impersonation of Maggie Thatcher. Swing and a handbag. And in fact, the guy who I was working, doing with, it wasn't you. I think it may have been the Rocket guy. The Rocket. Yeah.

Yeah. I whacked him. I saw that he was not supposed to have been the rocket. Oh, the rocket. Yeah. I whacked him. I saw that he was not supposed to be in the thing, so I whacked him with the handbag and shoved him off and pulled another one on. I mean, it was as amateur as that. You know, it was sort of fun, though. You know, it was fun.

Oh, it was awful, it was fun. Oh, it was awful, it was! Get hold of yourself, madam. I am Dame Lydia Snoot. This is my assistant, Dr. Wooter. We are detectives. We've been working on the Jack the Stripper case for several

weeks now. I realize that you've been brutally embarrassed, but perhaps you could give us a few clues. Now, where did he embarrass you? Right under this lamppost. Well, madam, forgive me for saying so, but you didn't have to watch. I couldn't help it. He had a little radio and he was playing a disco version of God Save the Queen. Well, what did he look like? Well, he had a gorgeous body. Little on the thin side.

Beautiful legs. Oh, yes. He had a crown on his head. Did you hear that, Snoot? A crown? Yes. It appears that our Mr. Stripper is trying to impersonate a member of the royal family. Live television. Is that the only time you attempted live television, Malcolm? No, I started at the BBC.

Oh, there you go. OK. And we did live dramas. And my God, talk about pressure. I'll bet. And I just remember once I was in a cop show. I was a delinquent, of course, wouldn't you know. And they were processing me. And the sergeant took a swig of tea that went down the wrong way and shot out of his nose. And everybody started laughing in the scene, you know,

and it was not a jokey thing, and it was live. And I had most of the dialogue, so I was cringing trying to get it out. Eventually, of course, it was fine. But, yeah, they did hire me after that but um very lucky they did malcolm speaking of the beatles you you narrated the uh now impossible to find wonderful documentary the complete beatles which i honestly think that's the best one it's fantastic it's only on vhs because i'm in it not because i did it. But it was an amazing piece.

And, yeah, it is hard to find. It's sort of a collector's item now. Yes, it is. It's one of the best, though. And it was done, you know, just after John's death, you know. So it was 1981, I think. May have been even in 80. And you were a logical choice to to narrow.

I guess I guess so. When I heard it again recently, I thought, my God, I could never do that again. There was a sort of naivety, a grittiness, a northern grittiness that I you know I've just come too far down the lane of the you know of the horrible word technique and to find I could never do that again

so I'm glad I did it the once but apparently the guy who directed it told me that that narration changed the way people did narration on documentaries for a time i know yeah well you had seen them i mean growing up in liverpool you should point out to people yes you saw them at the cavern club regularly i did i did i wandered in with a girlfriend of mine who said you've got to come and see this band, the great. And it was a tiny, I mean, the Cavern Club.

That's a joke. You went down some stairs and it was like a beer vault. And I don't, it was very small. If there were a hundred people in there, they were packed in there. The only dancing was called the Liverpool Stomp, which was basically hopping from one foot to the other.

You couldn't do anything with your arms, nothing. There was no room. Full of teddy boys. Yeah, and there they were on a small platform, maybe nine inches off the floor. And the one, of course, that drew my eye immediately,

of course, was John Lennon, who was the leader of the group, I guess. But he was the one with the sort of force of personality that I remember. So they were the Silver Beetles? They were the Silver Beetles. How about that? And they were singing covers, Old Chuck Berry and Little Richard, but brilliantly well. And, you know, I went every Friday. They played Friday nights. I went every Friday for like six weeks or something.

And the last time I went, they had the mop tops and the cutaway colorless jackets. Brian Epstein had got hold of them. Oh, that's cool. And they'd moved to another level. But I sort of, you know, Paul McCartney was going to do the music for my third movie that i made called the raging moon and uh paul saw it but he was living in sky on the isle of mole wherever it is and uh he wanted to do it he told me he wanted to do it but i know family considerations and all the rest he couldn't do it in the end

uh so i've always sort of felt an affinity sort of with them because we're from the same city. Of course. And actually, so I learned to get rid of my northern accent to be an actor. And just as the Beatles hit nationally and then internationally, and everybody wanted a Liverpool accent.

And I'd go in and say, yes, actually, I am from Liverpool. They'd go, no, you're not. Where's the accent? I said, well, I can do it, but I mean, I've got rid of it. You know, I don't want to be playing Scousers the rest of my life.

So, of course, of course, they, you know, it was very fashionable to be from Liverpool for one moment. It's not so fashionable now. I would imagine. We had Peter Asher was here and also Billy J. Kramer was here on the show. Oh, you had Billy J. on? Oh, he did. He's living here on Long Island.

Listen, do you want to know a secret? Gilbert sang it with him. Did you? Good man. Yes. Great. I used to love him. There were 3,000 groups on Merseyside.

The Beatles were the second favorite on Merseyside in some poll by some Liverpool Echo, the local paper. Wow. And the most successful or the most sought after was a jazz band called the Mersey Sippies. Go figure. The Mersey Sippies. Yeah. Wow. And there were 3,000 groups on Merseyside.

I thought every city was the same. You know, I thought, well, every pub you went into, there was a live band. I mean, it was just consumed with music. Great time to be growing up in Liverpool. Incredible, really. I mean, you know, one didn't realize it then, but you'd go to the gas, the gaslight, then you'd go to the Pink Alley, and then Cavern.

You know, you'd do the rounds of the clubs, and they were very cheap. You know, it was nothing. I mean, nobody had any money, let's face it. Great days. Can you demonstrate your accent before you fixed it? Well, Liverpool, you know what,

Liverpool is like that, you know, just a bit like that. And, you know, they talk through the nose like the Ad Lords, you know. That's how they talk, you know, and they sort of go up at the end of sentences like that, which is sort of weird. But I never really talk like that.

I talk more northern, you know. I had a sort of soft northern accent. You know, I'd sort of like that. You know, like Hindle Wicks, you know, from Yorkshire. I'm from Yorkshire. That's how they talk there. Did you just lose it? Liverpool's a bit more, you know, a bit more, I don't know,

a bit more energetic, like, you know. A bit of Irish, too. You know, it's the capital of Ireland. Did you know that? There's more Irish in Liverpool than there is in Dublin. Did you lose it on your own, Malcolm, or did you get specific training? I had the most amazing speech therapist called Mrs. Harold Ackley. She was 82.

She was my drama teacher. Had a girlfriend, same one that took me to the cavern, took me to Mrs. Ackley. Wow. And Mrs. Ackley said, oh, she was very posh. She goes, I have been a silent screen star. And I think you have an amazing voice. And I think you can make it. And of course, that's all I wanted to hear.

And I thought, well, I think I can make it. And of course, that's all I wanted to hear. And I thought, well, I think I can make it too. What do we do? She goes, you learn these pieces and then you go down to Lambda and you do them for these judges. And if any of them like you, they'll offer you a job in repertory theater. That's what I did.

And you know, the weird thing is, I was at a dinner party, I don't know, 35 years ago or something, next to Rita Tushingham, and we were chatting away. And, you know, Rita, I've always been a big fan of Rita. Taste of honey. You know, she made these wonderful movies before mine, you know, Taste of Honey, Sheila Delaney brilliant brilliant and uh she was

a you know a plain girl you know that's the way they made her look anyway she was actually quite beautiful but in person but and and and we were talking and i went yeah well you know, Mrs. Harold Ackley. She went, you went too? Good God. Yeah. You went to Mrs. Ackley? So, hey. And then a producer that I work with on a movie called Gangster No. 1, Norma Heyman, she is also from Liverpool and went to Mrs. Harold Ackley.

I love it. Yeah. And Norma's son, he produced the Harry Potter movies. So there you go. Keeping it in the family. And now I've shown enough self-restraint. But I have to know, because I've heard this story before and I have to hear it from you about Danny Kaye and Laurence Olivier. Oh, you're going right for it, huh, Gil? Yes.

Wait a minute. You know, I got into a lot of trouble repeating this, but apparently it is true. I don't know. I didn't hear it. I didn't hear it from Larry himself, of course. But, you know, it was said, and I don't know whether it's true, so we'll have to just say that right off the bat. Allegedly. When Olivier was in Hollywood, he had some, you know, fun with Danny Kaye. They were great friends. And make whatever you want out of that.

When Danny was coming to London to the Royal Variety Show to play before Her Majesty the Queen at the London Palladium, when Danny arrived at heathrow airport this was in the 50s of course um lawrence olivier thought he would make him very welcome to england by going to the airport because it was a rustic little thing you know a one runway or something in those days. Certainly no security whatsoever, except a friendly Bobby on the gate. And he persuaded the customs people and immigration to give him a uniform,

and he stuck a bit of putty on his nose, which he was famous for doing, and a moustache. And when Danny arrived, he was, Larry was waiting for him in customs. He said, excuse me, sir, would you mind coming this way, sir, please, if you don't mind? And Danny goes, yeah, me?

Yes. Oh, yes. Is there anything wrong? This way, sir, please. The private room, if you don't mind. Yes, sir. Could you, would you mind taking your coat off, please? Yes.

He goes, well, what's the matter? You know who I am, right? I'm Danny Kaye. I'm here to perform in front of Her Majesty the Queen at the London Palladium. And he goes, thank you very much, sir. Yeah, that'll be nice. But we've got a tip about you. Could you mind taking your trousers off?

He goes, what? How? This is outrageous. I would like to speak to the American ambassador. Yes, sir. You'll be very, we'll put you through as soon as we've done this check, if you don't mind. Take your pants off, sir. Yeah, right.

Take your underpants off as well now. On this table, Up on the table. And right in front of his face, he puts on these rubber gloves. He goes back to his back end, and he leans over. Danny Kaye's like going, this is outrageous. Absolutely outrageous. Laurence Olivia goes up to his ear and he goes, welcome to London, Danny.

Malcolm, I hope you remember telling that story on the Joy Behar show some years ago. I did, and that's where I got a lot of flack. I was in the room. But who cares? Who cares? Get over it. That's one of those stories. I've a lot of flack. I was in the room. But who cares? Who cares? Get over it. That's one of those stories.

I've heard it a few times. And depending on who. Yeah. Depending on who tells it. In some versions, Olivier has his finger in Danny Kaye's ass. And in other versions, Danny Kaye has his finger and Olivier has his. I think that was probably for the return journey. On the subject of Olivier, Malcolm,

you also told that wonderful story when you guys were making the collection. You and Olivier and Alan Bates and you all went to the pub. Oh, my God. Which is a favorite of mine. You and Olivier and Alan Bates and you all went to the pub. Oh my God. Which is a favorite of mine. You want to hear that? Yeah, it's a great one. We're in rehearsal. Gilbert doesn't know it.

We're in rehearsal. Alan Bates, who I adored, is a friend and he's a great actor. Terrific actor. You know, yeah. But, you know, very self-obsessed, shall we say. You'd say, say alan if you put on weight what where darling are you sure where i've got a double chin oh no really you think my behind

am i my stomach you think a little bit uh you go no it's just a joke fuck's sake take it easy didn't he wear a scarf or an ascot all the time yeah always he had a double chin yeah yeah i know um but he was so he was so funny he was such a nice man you know he's one of the nicest people i ever met in show business anyway so he was in awe of olivier or in awe going malcolm you can't talk to larry like that um i go why not he's, he's an actor, right? I mean, we're doing a scene together. It's 50-50. What am I supposed to do?

Get down on my knees? He goes, no, no. But I mean, you know, I don't know, you're too reverent with the guy. So of course I was, you know, thought he was great. I mean, but I was more into Albert Finney. He was more, you know, he was one generation up, not two or three, right?

So we're rehearsing. We decide to go to the little local pub. This is on the south of the river on the Oval. And we went into the small little snug bar and we had a pork pie or something. There's three of us, myself, Alan, and his lordship who's sitting there in a

raincoat, little raincoat. It looked a bit like, you know, Peter Cook in that thing with Dudley Moore, you know, that thing they used to do. The Dazzled? No, it was not only but also. Oh, right. He was the one-legged Tarzan. Remember that? Yeah, he wore the raincoat. This is when they were sitting in the pub. Oh, I was not only, but also. Oh, right. Where he was the one-legged Tarzan.

Remember that? Yeah. He wore the raincoat. This is when they were sitting in the pub. Oh, I got you. Hey, you know, I was at Mally Bully Bum Bum. You know, Jay Mansfield had lobsters. Oh, the lobsters.

You know, parades. Derek and Clive. Oh, yeah. Remember that? Right. Yeah, Mally Bully Bum Bum. That's right. Anyway derrick and clive they called themselves pete yeah exactly yeah peter cook was was a comic genius and you know uh the

the pythons are traced directly back to him anyway we're sitting there having a pie. A lorry driver, truck driver, whatever, walks in. And it's a tiny room, really. The fire's on. And he goes and orders a pint. And he's just waiting on his pint. He looks around and he goes, oh, fucking hell. It's the old clockwork banana, isn't it? Oh, come on.

Oh, yeah. It is. It's in. He goes,, isn't it? Oh, come on. Oh, yeah. It is. It's him. He goes, oh, for fuck's sake. Here. Can you sign this? I said, sign what? He goes, here, the beer mat.

Can you sign the beer mat? I went, yes, of course. I signed it. And then he goes, oh. And he notices Alan Bates. He goes, fucking hell, it's Tom Jones, isn't it? It's Tom Jones! Of course, that made me guffaw,

because, of course, that was Albert Finney, not... Albert Finney. It wasn't Alan Bates. Not even close. He got the wrong actor. And, of course, that was a dagger to the heart of Alan's ego. So I said, oh, yes, do sign it, Albert. And then there was like a pause.

And I said, well, surely you want the autograph of the greatest ever living actor. And he goes, oh, yeah? Who's that? I said, well, this. Pointing to, you know, the guy in the little raincoat. I said, this, this is Laurence Olivier. He goes, ah, no, no. And walked out.

And, of course, I thought it was quite amusing. Hilarious. And we all get up to leave. And Alan, as we're leaving, grabs hold of me and goes, we are going to pay for that this afternoon. I went, what? He's an ignorant tosser. What do you expect?

You don't think his lordship cares about that? He goes, oh, yeah. And he was right. He had scenes with Alan that, and he was so bitchy to him. The next morning, I came in, Alan's there drinking his tea. I come in, he goes,

oh, it was terrible with Larry. You know, the whole point, it was just four people in that play. The three of us and Helen Mirren. And the whole idea of it is that it's a play, a Pinter play, Harold Pinter,

and it's about menace. And the whole deal is that Lawrence Olivia is playing this sort of snobbish, rather aristocratic old man who lives in a beautiful house in Eaton Square. And he's got this visitor who lives with him, who is this rather common rent boy, i.e. me. And it's sort of very deeply in the closet that there's any homosexual overtones. And Alan, his character, comes to the house and accuses me of having an affair with his wife, Helen Mirren.

So it's this whole thing of menace. Anyway, we're all there for the read-through of this thing. And Olivier starts reading it like he's swinging a handbag in high heels. And I mean, we're like... We're going, oh, my God. I mean, we have nowhere to go here. If you know he's gay, I mean, there's no menace. There's no nothing.

You know, it's over. So we're, like, looking at him. I look at Alan, who looks at his feet and with a little smirk on his face. And of course, every day in rehearsal, we'd say to the director, you know, have you told sir yet? You know, he can't he can't play like that. Right. You're going to tell him.

Right. I mean, we're not going to go out. We're not going to do this with him like that. And so we go through the whole first week of rehearsals. And on the Friday, he said he's going to tell him. So it had these swing doors like a restaurant doors. And Alan and I went to the doors and just opened it, and all we could see

was the back of Olivier with his ears, and the director was just whispering. Michael Apted, who did A Coal Miner's Daughter. He's one of the terrific directors. Very good film. So Michael, who's a very calm and very patient guy, you know, is sort of

whispering in Larry's ear and suddenly Larry goes, But of course, dear boy! I always start big and bring it in! And we're like, oh, thank God for that. Jesus, why didn't we know that?

And we go, yeah, he starts big and then he brings it in. And Alan, so we go back to the table, we sit down there in the green room and he goes, you know, it's so brave, so brave of Larry to do that. And I went goes you know it's so brave so brave of larry to do that and i went yeah it's very brave to make a complete idiot of yourself and uh i think it is brave he goes why don't we do it why don't we you know the younger act why don't I went, play it gay. He goes, yes, let's do it. I mean, you've got to be fucking joking, right? He goes, no, I'm not.

Let's do it. So they go, okay, let's go from the top. So the top was him ringing the doorbell and me opening the door and going, yes. And he goes, are you so-and-so? So, okay, action. action doorbell rings open it yes that's the only word we got out we just started laughing so hard that was the end of that experiment poor michael aptid was like what the hell are you doing? I know.

I love the 7-Up series that he did, too, Michael Apted. Oh, brilliant. Wonderful. He's a fantastic director. Yeah, wonderful filmmaking. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast after this. What's funny about Finney, too, is I love how the generations work, that you were inspired in a way to be an actor by seeing Finney

and saying, I can do that. And then years later, your friend Gary Oldman had the same experience watching you. Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? It is. Did you tell Finney that? Did you tell him at any point i did

i i did you know and i it was difficult to talk to even though he produced if my first movie and a lucky man albert his company memorial enterprises uh produced it he didn't really produce it but his partner did michael Medwin, who was an actor as well. Very nice guy. But Albert had been on a world tour when we were shooting If, 1968. I think he'd done Tom Jones and all the money was coming in and he had to get out of England for a year so that he wouldn't have to pay tax so he did a world trip I mean he went everywhere Tahiti you name it Albert Finney you know from Salford near Manchester was doing his thing anyway he came to he saw some of the dailies if that movie and came on the set towards the end of the shoot and he came up to me he said

hey malcolm just like to tell you you've got a very interesting face i went wow albert finney said i've got an interesting face wow i mean to it was like the greatest actor of them all. And it's interesting, you know, after he'd done Tom Jones, it was a huge hit and everything, which, by the way, he didn't enjoy. He told me, he said, after he saw A Lucky Man,

he goes, you didn't enjoy playing that part, did you? I went, how did you know? Does it really look that? goes no he goes it's a reacting part and reacting parts are never that giving to you because you're always reacting to what somebody else is doing he goes and I have the same thing in Tom Jones and I never really enjoyed it either I said you're so right you know I was desperate to play any of the other parts that's interesting um yeah but you know great actors

have to be great reactors of course and when you see the great ones like gary cooper's comes to mind instantly but um he was a such a great reactor and listener you know it was incredible you have a great affection for american movie actors i know you love cagney i yeah i do well to me that's the movies were hollywood i mean, British movies were like kind of cheesy B movies, you know. Or war movies. It's like John Lennon said, you know, the English army just won the war or whatever, you know. It was that kind of stuff.

Why do you think Cagney is the greatest American film actor, specifically? I think when Cagney's on the screen, whoever he's with, Bogey, any of them, Robinson, all of them, you never look at anyone else except him. He is dynamism personified. The way he moves, of course, he was a dancer.

So he moves like, you know, extraordinary movement. And, you know, movies are about movement. And movement, the way you move in a part is as important as what you say. And it's very often overlooked. But I was very conscious of that. And so I always want, I didn't have a sort of limp or something like that I'm not talking about that sort of subtle really but um it's just the way you

move in terms of what you're feeling in in the particular scene and it really registers more sometimes with an audience than you know the, the dialogue. Well, he could do anything. He could do Menace, obviously, and he could sing and dance, and if you look at a movie like Wilder's 1, 2, 3, he was great at comedy. He was just the greatest. And just the delivery

is so machine-gun, so fast. And, you know... Especially in that movie. Yeah, and you just think, wow wow how could he do that i mean i couldn't i can't think that fast you know i'm just lucky if i learned the damn lines um well i i have to ask you something it just popped into my head can you please do for us a James Cagney imitation? No. I can't.

Top of the world, man. Top of the world. No. I really can't. But everything that I do is in sort of homage to Jimmy Cagney. Wow. I mean, every damn thing that I do. It's not conscious, but if I hadn't seen Jimmy Cagney as a 14-year-old boy,

you know, I saw him. I can't even remember the movie. It was, you know, one of the gangster movies. I came out of the cinema and played him all the way home, you know, dancing, jumping up on a wall, and, you know, and just so infected, an infectious thing these movies were. And I always just looked. I found out who it was,

and I went to see everything I could with him in it. I didn't care what it was. But, of course, he even played Bottom the Weaver in A Midsummer Night's Dream. That's right. That's right. And, you know, of course, his great performance in Yankee Duel Dandy, you know, is incredible.

I don't think he ever gave a bad performance. I can't think of one. No. He was always 100%. And I'll tell you, I never met him. My ex-wife got to work with him. I went, that's not right. Oh, in ragtime.

I mean, how come? Yeah, ragtime. Ragtime, yes. Mary's in ragtime. I know, it's just, but anyway, I was thrilled that she did at least. But she never, I don't think she met him. She may have met him at some point, but she didn't have a scene with him. But what was his great friend?

Pat O'Connor? Pat O'Brien. Pat O'Brien. Yeah. I got a call, and it was Pat O'Brien. Now, I'm going back 40 years. I got this call. I was in Outpost Drive in Hollywood. The phone goes, and I pick it up,

and it goes, it's Pat O'Brien here. I went, sorry? Which Pat O'Brien? He goes, yes, I'm a friend of Jimmy Cagney, and Malcolm, I just want to tell you how much he really appreciates what you've been saying about him in the press. And, you know, he's seen you in Clockwork Orange, which he didn't understand, but he thought you were fantastic in it, although he didn't like the movie much. No, no, no, no, of course not. Of course he wouldn't like the movie much. I went, no, no, no, no, of course not. Of course he wouldn't like that movie, but oh, no, no, I mean, it's a weird movie. He said, but, and he talked to me for 40 minutes.

He said, he's very aware of who you are. Wow. And I was blown away by that. Isn't that amazing? It is. I'm sorry you didn't actually get to meet the man. I know. So was I. So was I. Because I thought, well,

and you know, I was a friend of Milos Forman. Milos was a friend when they first got out of Czechoslovakia. They came to London first. That was the stepping stone to New York. And we all used to hang with him.

Lindsay Anderson, Carol Rice, Milosz, Ivan Passer, another director. I think he just passed away. Ivan? Ivan Passer. Oh, he did. Yeah. Yeah. So did Milosz, of course.

Yeah. Great guys. You know, the thing about Ragtime is, I mean, what is Cagney? He's 80-something? And in the few scenes he's in, what you say holds true. You can't take your eyes off of him. No. Well, he's just this.

When he's in front of the camera, the concentration is so intense that it does something to the eyes the adrenaline it's like my wife used to say to me she used to come on the set and she'd go oh my god as soon as they say action your eyes turn ice blue i went well aren't they always she goes not like that and it's the adrenaline yes i think and the concentration of what you're doing. And certainly with him is the prime example of it. Now, you said in an interview that you were happy that in your younger days, you got all the self-abuse out of the way.

Yes, sort of. I wasn't, to be honest, Gilbert, I wasn't that young. I didn't have a joint until sort of my late 30s. And then, you know, I found cocaine because we were told, oh, well, cocaine is okay

because it's not addicting. I went, oh, oh, well, that's good. Well, let's have that because I don't like pot. It sends me to sleep. And so I found cocaine, and I'll tell you, it's a total lie. It's very addicting. And I literally, I think, was only, I only did it for a couple of years because you either explode and die

or you have to clean up your act. And thank God, you know, Mary helped me and said, look, you've got to get off this crap. And she was ready to deliver our son. And it was the sort of perfect time. So it was so much fun for a while. And then it was torture. And so I've been sober, I think, 37 years.

Good for you. Yeah. So let's have a drink. So I've been sober, I think, 37 years. Good for you. Yep. So let's have a drink! Hey Malcolm, I got a couple of quick questions for you from people you've worked with. Alan Arkush. Oh yes, Alan. Who was on this podcast, the director of Get Crazy.

Please ask Malcolm how he prepared for the penis talking scene in Get Crazy. I can't think of another actor in film history who was capable of such a moving phallic monologue. Okay. I'll try and make this quick. Reggie Wanker. Do we have time? Yeah. So I was sitting on a beach. I make this quick. Reggie Wanker. Do we have time? Yeah. So I was sitting on a beach.

I get this script. I get my agent calls and says, they want you to play this in this American comedy. I went, okay. I read it. And I thought, there's not one funny line in this thing. This is not a comedy. I mean, they call back.

I said, he goes, did you read the script i said oh i did read it and and your description is completely wrong i mean it may be american but it's not a comedy it's not funny at all so he said well yeah they're calling it a comedy they want you to do the you know the reggie role i went yeah okay well but they only want you for two weeks and they don't want to pay you and i went good pass you tell him and i said don't say i don't want to do it just say he wants the full film fee for the two weeks and won't take any less okay thank you that's really a pass. Click. Two weeks go by. He calls back and he,

I throw the script in the trash, by the way. I get the call and he goes, they've decided to pay you. I went, who? You know, that comedy. That script that wasn't funny. He says, yes. I said, I thought they'd already started shooting. He says, yes. I said, I thought they'd already started shooting.

He said, they had. They hired a rock and roll guy, and they realized they got to get an actor. I went, oh, well, I've thrown the script away. He goes, what? I'll send another script. This was a Friday. So they fired the guy,

and they're shooting on me on Monday. So I said, well, I'm going to have to meet the director before I accept. We know we're on the same page here. So they came around to this house in Malibu I was renting on the Saturday. And so I didn't say I thought it was very unfunny or anything. I just kept that to myself. But I said, well, OK, I will do it on one condition. And I saw them physically sort of retreat. And they went, what's that?

And I went, I get to sing my own songs. And they went, do you sing? I went, doesick jagger sing and so um it was um so i went straight in to the we went in oh i went in to shoot one day then the next day recording i had to go in and sing the songs to you know for the playback and i said well who wrote this song i'm sorry i'm gonna need something better than this i mean let's get together with the writer let's come up with something ridiculous i mean come on let's really go for it this is rod stewart and mick jagger rolled into one so they came they came up with some fun stuff for me but so

I never quite finished the script you know so I'm in makeup the first day and they're making me up and everything and there's a young actor sitting in the other chair who goes it's such a pleasure to work with you Mr Miller I went please Malcolm no you. I'm delighted. And he goes, and I've just got one question. And I said, oh, yes, what's that? And he said, how are you going to do the end scene? I said, excuse me? I'm just going to do it. That's how I'm going to do it.

I'm just going to do it. He went, wow. And I went, whoa. So he left. I said to the the makeup guy do you have a script there could i have a little look so i flipped to the end and i see reggie takes a big gulp of um water by the side of the stage that's been spiked with lsd goes into the bathroom and a voice says, Hello, Reggie. And he goes,

Who? What? Who's that? Hello, Reggie. It's your manager. And I had a whole scene with my manager who was my penis. I mean, it's the most... I thought, holy God.

I suppose this is what they think is the comedy part. Oh, I feel strange. Oh, I feel quite different. That's because you are different, mate. No. Who's this? What? Who's that? What? Is that you, old cock?

I didn't know you could talk. There's a lot you don't know about me. There's a lot you've forgotten about yourself. I don't believe that. Well, come on, you've got something to say. Spit it out. You became a star, Reg. You forgot how to feel, mate. What about the agony I'm feeling now?

I mean, a woman's hurt me, lad. Deep cut. Emotion, Reggie. Emotion. That's what made tonight's performance your best. Was I really that good? Like old times. And it can be that good from now on if you listen to me. It's the start of a new beginning. Well, shake on it then.

You've got my hand on it. Don't shake me so hard. So it was sort of wild. But Alan was sweet, you know. And you guys got to work together again on Heroes years later. Yeah. Yeah. We did indeed.

He's a good man. Nice man. And tell us about your first meeting with Stanley Kubrick. on Heroes years later. Yeah. Yeah. He did indeed. He's a good man. Nice man. And tell us about your first meeting with Stanley Kubrick. When you were so young and naive, you thought you were going to meet Stanley Kramer. Exactly. Yes, I did. Of course, I didn't say anything.

I just said Stanley. I got a call direct, not from my agent. And I was working on this movie, this thing called The Raging Moon that Paul McCartney was going to write the music of, which didn't. And we were shooting at Elstree, which is near Stanley's house. And I got a call and it was Stanley who said,

Malcolm, I know you're shooting at Elf Street. Do you think you could come by and have lunch? I'd like to talk to you. I said, oh, of course, yes, I'd be delighted. So I went to see him, and he took me into a tiny room in a big house, and I noticed that the things on the walls were all covered with big Turkish towels and very odd dogs everywhere and children running around and we go into this small room and literally it was 45 minutes

of small talk. So I looked at my watch and I said, you know, Stanley, I have to be getting back because I've got to get into makeup. I've got a big scene this afternoon. And he said, oh, I said, was there anything you wanted to talk to me about? I said, was there anything you wanted to talk to me about? And he said, well, yeah, there's this book. And it was obviously, he was very reluctant to give me the title. And I said, well, what is the book? He goes, well, have you ever heard of this book, Clockwork Orange?

I went, Clockwork Orange? No, no, I don't think I have. He goes, well, it's a big cult thing. I went, really? Well, it hasn't got to Notting Hill Gate yet, Ben. I haven't heard of it. He goes, oh yeah, well, look, I'd like you to read the book and call me. And he gave me his number. call me. And he gave me his number. So I went back. I read the book. I struggled through it the first time. I found it very hard to read because it's all this weird language and you have to keep, you know, turning to the back of the book itself, of the glossary and trying to figure out what the hell it's all about. And so it took me a few days, you know, and I thought, well, I better read it again. I was also doing another film,

so it was, you know, hard to concentrate totally. But then I read it again, and I suddenly realized, oh my God, this is incredible stuff. Anyway, I thought, you better read it one more time which I did and then I realized what an amazing part what an amazing role it was so I called him up after a week and I said uh Stanley hello this is Malcolm I just I read the book and now I'm sorry I took so long but I wanted to be sure to read it really and really take it he said oh yeah I said well I think it's incredible

it's fantastic are you going to make it into a movie he said yes I am I said oh and are you offering me the part? There was a long pause and he said, what? Yes. Oh, great. How lovely. Well, maybe we could meet. Would you mind coming into central London and maybe we could talk about it? Not knowing, of course, he never left his house. Right. And I'll tell you why I said that because a really good friend of mine who I was at Stratford with the Royal Shakespeare Company great actor Ian Holm Ian I bumped into Ian in um and this was I think a little bit later but I think and I bumped into Ian and I said to him oh I'm going out to Stanley Kubrick's uh because he'd asked me what I was doing. So I'm going to meet this man, Stanley Kubrick. And he went, yes, it's not really a friend of mine.

He didn't actually say that. He said some things that words that Americans don't like to hear. I went, really? Why do you say that, Ian? He goes, he had me out of his house and working on the pre-production of Napoleon for 18 months. Oh, yes. And suddenly there was dead silence.

I couldn't get him on the phone, and he didn't even have the courtesy to call me and say I couldn't get the money. And so I went, wow, that's shocking. What a terrible thing. So I was very aware of this. And so when I asked him if he was offering me the part, I had that thought in my mind of Ian Holm. And then when I was out at his house, I sort of blurted out, well, Ian Holm's not really a big fan of yours, you know, Stanley. He goes, oh, really? Why? I go, well, you know, you gave him the old right dance, you know, for 18 months, and then you never even called him to say you couldn't get the money for it. And I went, you probably should have called him to say you couldn't get the money for it and i went you probably should have called

him and it was like silence so i thought oh well let's just leave that one where it lies and that was that wow we will return to gilbert godfrey's amazing colossal podcast but first a word from our sponsor speaking of jagger i saw an interview with you was was jagger attached to or interested or swimming around a clockwork orange for for a bit i heard you know i don't know how seriously i don't think it was i know the Stones love the book. Yeah. And I think Mick, you know, after he did Performance, which was a fantastic movie, and really caught the sort of debauchery of the sort of 60s and that whole kind of scene of, you know, the pop scene,

rockers and the underbelly drugs and all that, and the chicks and, you know, really caught the essence of that. Wonderful actor called James Fox, you know. Yeah. Mick was very, very good in it, actually. Basically, I guess, playing himself, you know, although you never really play yourself. Was Kubrick reluctant to give you direction?

There's a funny story that I saw you telling where he would say, that's why I hired you, when you would ask for it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I'd say to him, well, I remember saying, you know, I go out there, you know,

I knew I was playing the part for nine months before we started shooting. And, you know, we talk about the mechanics. We talk about the set or whatever. And then we talk about casting. And I would, you know, give him my two cents who I thought should, you know, he wouldn't cast Warren Clark as Dim for four months. Took me to, he just wouldn't cast him. And then I'd have to read other actors. And I kept saying, it's Warren, what the hell? But he wouldn't, you know, he was very stubborn about it. So he it. So, you know, he never really talked to me

about the part, the role. So at one point, you know, I was talking to him and I said, what do you really think about Alex, Stanley? You know, and he looked at me and he goes, I don't know. That's why I'm paying you. And walked off. Walked off.

I went, oh, sorry. I thought you were the fucking director. I love that story. Okay, we're going to stop right now. And we're just, we were just having so much fun with Malcolm McDowell. We made this into a two-parter. So come back for the next show. Absolutely.

We couldn't even stop him because he just kept going. So there's too much material there. We'll get, we'll see you guys next week for part two. Thank you. © transcript Emily Beynon