Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Marsha Mason Encore

Episode Date: March 13, 2023

GGACP's celebration of Women's History Month continues with this encore presentation of a 2019 interview with Oscar-nominated actress-director Marsha Mason. In this episode, Marsha talks about the value of character actors, the importance of onscreen chemistry, the true story behind “Bogart Slept Here” and her memories of collaborating with (and living with) the legendary Neil Simon. Also, Peter Falk shares the spotlight, Dustin Hoffman inspires “The Goodbye Girl,” Paul Newman introduces Marsha to auto racing and Gilbert sings the theme song from “Cinderella Liberty.” PLUS: “Dark Shadows”! “The Cheap Detective”! The superstitions of Peter Sellers! The elusiveness of George Segal! And Marsha co-stars with Albert Finney, Anthony Hopkins and Jason Robards! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Try the new creamy parmesan and bacon Quarter Pounder today and discover how words are so unnecessary. For a limited time only at participating McDonald's restaurants in Canada. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Our guest this week is an occasional director, an Oscar and Emmy-nominated performer, and one of the most admired actresses of her generation. You know her work from the TV shows Frasier, The Good Wife, Madam Secretary, The Middle, Seinfeld, Grace and Frankie, and feature films like The Cheap Detective, Audrey Rose, Two Days in the Valley, Stella, Heartbreak Ridge, I Love Trouble, and Max Dugan Returns, received Academy Award nominations as Best Actress, Cinderella Liberty, Chapter 2, Only When I Laugh, and a movie we've discussed at length on this show, 1977's The Goodbye Girl. In a lengthy and successful career that began with, among other things, a drive-in movie about a demolition derby and a one-day part in the classic soap Dark Shadows. She's worked steadily on on Broadway and off-Broadway stage, and on the big and small screen.

And she also directed numerous stage and TV productions. She worked alongside some of the greatest talents of the last century, including Jason Robards, Albert Finney, George Siegel, Clint Eastwood, Anthony Hopkins, Donald Sutherland, Bette Midler, Richard Dreyfuss, and of course, her one-time husband and frequent collaborator, the late, great Neil Simon. She's also worked with several guests of this very podcast, including Matthew Broderick, Keith Carradine, Austin Powers. Austin Powers?

Austin! I think it's time to go home. I'm leaving that in. I said Austin Powers time to go home. I'm leaving that in. I said Austin Powell. Oh, fuck. I love it. I love it. That's all right. We'll loop it later.

I think it was Matt Helm. I'm cheating. Hey. You want to get through the rest of the names? Okay. Yeah. Where were we? Stay on mic.

Oh, yes. Yeah, that helps too. Oh, Christ. Austin Pendleton, Tim Matheson, Paul Williams, and James Burroughs. She welcomes to the... Oh. Please welcome to the show... Have you been drinking?

If you'd like to leave at this point, you can. Oh, no. This is when you want to stay. Please welcome to the show a gifted, versatile performer and a former professional race car driver, Marcia Mason. That's the best introduction I've ever heard of. Wow. That's great. Thank you very much.

It's all downhill from here, Marcia. Yes. No, no. But what I loved is it was a great sort of different perspective and take on my career, which was really nice. You lose sight of all those people you've worked with? Well, yeah. Yeah. You know, because if you stay in the present,

and it sounded really lovely, all of a sudden it was like, oh, wow, I did that. Those were just the obvious names. We didn't even say like Pacino and Sid Caesar and all of these other legends. Oh, tell us about Sid Caesar. Well, most of my experience with Sid Caesar was through Neil Simon because he told me a lot, and we met briefly. But Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner and Sid Caesar, they all came out of even Peter Stone there were a lot of writers and they were friends

and there was this camaraderie that writers have I think because they're in writing rooms even on the Sid Caesar show they had writing rooms and of course Neil wrote about it in his two books his two memoirs so it was really lovely to kind of do it through being secondhand and getting a sense of what that world was really like and they had this camaraderie and this – it's actually met by British actors, Michael Caine, Sean Connery, people like that that we had to our house for dinner and stuff. The Brits are really good in terms of their sociability. In other words, you go and you have dinner and you have these fabulous conversations.

It's like a similar fraternity. Yes. British actors and comedy writers. That's interesting. And also they're very adept at social conversation. Interesting. And you're expected to be able to participate. I had an invitation through Tony Richardson to visit him in the south of France with his daughter Natasha. And people would come through in the south of France and have dinner and stuff like that. And the Mitford sisters and people. And what was sort of expected of you, which was kind of unusual for me because I tended to be a little bit of an introvert,

was you were expected to offer some social communication and enjoyment. And they had a great time, and they loved socializing, and especially at dinner and drinks and stuff like that. And so it was a wonderful lesson on how to communicate. So your perspective of the introduction reminded me of that. That's nice. People bring different perspectives to a conversation. We hope you got to go down memory lane a little bit

when you heard that introduction. I did, I did. Now, Cesar, you're in The Cheap Detective. I'm trying to remember if you guys had any scenes together. No. Because you almost weren't in The Cheap Detective. No, but I was there. Right.

Because the first one, which was Murder by Death, I was Neil's assistant, and I simply asked to be that because there were so many great people like Peter Sellers. Yes, exactly. And who, it is not apocryphal, you couldn't wear purple. What's that about? I don't know, but you couldn't wear purple. You couldn't wear purple around Peter Sellers.

No, he didn't. It upset him. You couldn't wear purple around Peter Sellers. No, he didn't. It upset him. Now, I heard something that was similar with Peter Sellers and Sid Caesar in that, and you find this with a lot of performers, that I've often heard off camera they didn't exist. It's like if they were in character yes they had this energy and power i think that's i think that's slightly true yes i think that's a story of melbourne of caesar getting an award like some kind of lifetime achievement award and mel brooks had to coach him up or he said yeah do it yeah that's very true yeah i remember Neil telling me when they were writing stuff, Sid would come into the room and he would listen, but you wouldn't necessarily know how he felt about it because he wasn't that communicative. would run with it. So that doesn't surprise me because one of the people that I actually worked

with who was very similar was, oh, I'm trying to think, Robert De Niro was a lot like that, in the sense that who he was as a person is very different than the energy that comes through the screen. Accepting that, you can't really separate the two. So he was slightly intimidating. I can imagine. And yet at the same time, what you realize then, if you keep yourself open and stay there, is that he's extremely shy.

Don't you find that about a lot of performers, though? And you're like that in some ways, too, Gilbert. Sometimes the switch is off. Yeah. Because performing all the time is exhausting with some of these people. So when they're turned out, or when the robot is sort of powered down.

Yes, I think that's really true. And can you tell that story, if you know the same story, where Sid Caesar was trying to speak on stage, like accepting an award or something, and he was stumbling all over? Do you remember this? The story we heard was Mel Brooks was president and he yelled, Sid, do it in German. Oh, yeah. And by getting a character do it in German. Oh, yeah. And by getting a character. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's true.

I think that's really true. And he just exploded. And Neil was a young writer at that show. So Mel is the one that told the story about, you know, he would whisper, Neil would whisper certain lines to Danny, his brother, and Danny would say it. As dramatized in the movie My Favorite Year. Yeah, exactly. And it was Mr. Reiner who said, let the kids, or Mel, who said, let the kid talk. You know what I mean?

So it was like that. Because Neil also was like that. He was very diffident and somewhat shy, and yet he was extremely funny. And there's always talk about on your show of shows the insane amount of talent in the writer's room. Yeah. Each one became legendary. Mel Tolkien, too. Selma Diamond.

All of them. I've often wondered, too, and because my favorite year is one sort of semi-fictional portrayal of Sid Caesar. Neil's play is another. Right. Laughter on the 23rd Floor. Yeah. I've often wondered where the truth lies. Oh, I think Laughter on the 23rd Floor is, Neil actually really did write autobiographically.

Barefoot in the Park was true. Joan did sit on the ledge of the window. Oh, that's cool to know. Well, the odd couple had to do with his brother. That's right. Absolutely.

Absolutely. There's a lot. I found it interesting. I didn't know in watching Goodbye Girl, and then I've seen it a hundred times, and then doing research on you, I didn't know how many things were true that came from your life. Oh, a lot. Like the auto show. Oh, yeah. That was true.

A lot of it was true. The auto show was absolutely, and only when I laugh, there was a lot of truth. Chapter two, a lot of truth. A lot of truth. What's it like directing chapter two now? Is that weird for you? No, actually, because actually when I went to do the movie, the play had already opened, and I think it was a couple of years later.

So I always thought of it as just it it's a character I knew well. But it didn't have any, I don't know if this is a failing on my part or a limitation, which it may be, but I can separate myself out a great deal from something i i'm not exactly sure why but it just sort of seems to be the case so when and maybe part of it was because neil would give me pages sometimes to read a scene or just sometimes pages and we would talk about it. And then other times he would wait until the whole thing was done. But I was always able to treat the work very objectively, and I think that's why we had such a positive and wonderful professional relationship. We had mutual admiration and affection for one another when we worked.

And I've often- I think it comes across. Well, and often, but people tell me that couples have sometimes a very hard time working together or playing tennis together. And it was the one thing about Neil and I that wasn't there. We just had this mutual respect for each other and affection, and consequently, we had a great time. Did you have an easier time working with him than living with him? Yes. Oh, that's an interesting question. Every now and then.

I usually get one every three months Oh, you underrate yourself Well, it's fair to say And this is what I find in the research That he didn't How do I put this tactfully? He didn't love actresses He had a certain kind of He had a certain kind of

Difficulty with actresses or is it the acting profession? I think it's more the acting profession. Right. I don't mean to make it gender-based. No, no, it wasn't. Unless the actor in particular said something. For example, there was an incident where in one of the plays, I don't remember which one, an actress, a female actor, now we have to change and we're no longer actresses, said, well, I wouldn't say that, meaning she wouldn't say that line. And that sort of question or that statement would make him bristle.

Of course. But at the same time, he was the kind of writer, if he knew that somebody was really, really talented, he'd write to them. For example, the two experiences that I remember was Annie Wedgworth in Chapter 2. that I remember was Annie Wedgworth in Chapter 2. And she came in, and the part was originally written like very rat-a-tat-tat, Rosalind Russell, you know, quick-witted and smart and fast. And Annie Wedgworth was from Texas and had a kind of drawl, and she came in and said,

oh, I know I'm not the right color for this. And then she did the material, and she was so funny because she had an innate sense of humor and understood timing, which you cannot teach somebody. And Neil said, that's it. So she was diametrically opposed to the material but it it went to her he adapted on the fly that's right you could say that about goodbye girl too right when Dreyfus came in the room and he recognized what chemistry the two of you had oh he decided that was we were total

strangers uh Richard and I did not know one another we We came in to do a cold reading, and there was just immediate chemistry. And he knew there was a problem with the script. And so he said, okay, I know what to do. And he went back, and he completely rewrote it, and goodbye. We didn't know it would be as successful as it was. Right, right, of course and how did you first meet uh neil simon i did a play of his called the good doctor and actually um it's kind of unusual but for other people but not so for me but i showed up for an audition, and they thought I was a California actress because I was out in San Francisco doing repertory.

And I had shot Cinderella Liberty, and it had just come out, and I think also Bloom in Love. But they thought I was, quote, unquote, a California actress. And somebody said that to me, and I took exception to it. I said, no, I'm not. You would have been a New York actress. So, here I was auditioning, and they gave me sides. And the script had been sent to me, but we missed each other because I was flying back for the audition. So, all I had were the sides, and I had one side.

And so it was called The Seduction. It was a Chekhovian short stories that he put together called The Good Doctor. And I did the side, and everybody thought that was nice. And they said, oh, do the other one. And I said, what other one? And it was to be called The Governess. And I said, well, I didn't get that, and I said what other one and it was to be called the governess and I said well I didn't get that and I didn't read the script but I said if you want I'll I'm happy to audition cold just understand that it's cold and um so I then I did the uh the governess for them

and I went back to my agent's office and I thought, well, I'll get a call back. And she said, well, they've hired you. So then later, Manny Eisenberg, the producer, told me that Neil said, oh, well, hire that girl. I'm going to marry her. I was just going to ask you that.

I was wondering if that was one of those urban myths. No, no, it's true. And then I went back to California and completely changed my life because I thought I was going back to repertory at San Francisco. I took care of all of that, and I came back and started rehearsal on October the 3rd. And we were doing the first reading, and everybody was around the table, you know, Mr. Plummer and everybody, Franny Sternhagen and Barney Hughes and Rene Auberginois. Yeah, it was really impressive. And we took a break, and Neil came around, and he put his hands on my shoulders, I remember, and was saying how very nice.

And I reached up and I just patted his hand on my shoulder three times. And there was such an extraordinary, strange, electric, psychic response that I had to excuse myself and go to the ladies' room and talk myself down into a kind of what just happened, that kind of thing. And we were married three weeks later. It's fascinating. Yeah. And it lasted 10 years. Instant chemistry. Yeah, instant. Same thing with Dreyfus and I of a different kind.

It was not romantic, but we had this great, I just don't know what else to say, energy, chemistry together. And Richard and I wound up doing Prisoner of Second Avenue years later. We were just talking about that. How was that? At the Royal Haymarket, we had toured with it beforehand. We had the best time. Oh, gosh. I would have killed to see that. And it was as if the same energy was still there. That's nice to hear.

And I'm sure if I ran into him, it would still be there. I remember like a thousand years ago going with my sisters. It was on Broadway and seeing Prisoner of Second Avenue with Peter Falk and Lee Grant. That's right. Yep. Lee Grant, who's done this show. Oh, nice. She was terrific. She's lovely. Went to her house, she let us hold her Oscar.

Well, and when we shot The Good Doctor for PBS, for the American Playhouse, Lee played the Franny Sternhagen role, I think. It's interesting, too, that he originally asked you to stop acting for a while? Yes, yes, yeah. Well, you have to understand the context is that his wife had passed away in July.

We were married in October. There were two young girls. There was a lot going on. Neil had not really grieved the death of his wife. The girls hadn't either to some extent. a really big, complex, highly psychological, difficult period for all of us. But I had made that commitment very presently and not exactly romantically. I knew the commitment I was making. And so I knew that that was a really important thing. And so when he said that to me, I make a joke about it now and say,

if only he had asked me that before we got married. But I told him, quite honestly, that I would do it. I would give it up. But I wasn't sure how I would feel about that. And I said, so as long as you know that, that I'm willing to make that commitment because I do want to make this work. And it was, I think, just fear, anxiety,

and also the fact that he hadn't grieved his wife's death. Sure, timing. And so consequently, about a year, we spent in New York in their old townhouse. We made the big decision to move and he had gone to a therapist who had asked him said well what would happen if you got married to Marsha and the girls and everything and you you know changed your life in a major way. And he said, I would be happy. So that was the big shift.

And then we moved out to California. And I had nothing to do with it. He wrote Bogart Slept Here and then The Goodbye Girl. As a gift to you? Well, to some extent, I suppose. To get you back in the game? Well, it was. I mean, he wrote the movie.

I mean, he wrote the movie. Now, considering it was like right after his wife died, was there any resentment or awkwardness of you stepping in? You know, strangely enough, there wasn't. The reason we got married so quickly, partly, or maybe even majorly, is because Ellen and Nancy were then 15 and 9, something like that, 14 and 9, 10 or 15. They're five years apart. 10 or 15. They're five years apart. And they came to us one day and they said,

we'd like Marsha to move in, but we won't tell our friends you're not married because we weren't. And in those days, in the 70s, that was still something. So that was a big shift, I think, for Neil, for myself, and for them. They were basically sending this message that they really needed a family. They loved me or at least liked me at that pace. And we are close to this day. Oh, that's nice to hear. Oh, yeah. We're all together for Thanksgiving with their now children and a great-grand.

Wow. Yeah. That's nice. So that, I think, was the big shift. Then, of course, once you make that shift and you're in it, then there are times when feelings come up. After we got married, Neil went into a deep funk about it, and it was tough. You talk about it in the book. Yeah, it was tough. Sitting in rooms in the dark by himself yeah yeah and you don't know what to do and i i i talked to a

therapist during that period of time to make sure i was feeling okay about everything and also how could i help the girls and they were okay okay. And then, of course, when we got divorced, especially for Nancy, it was difficult because I think in some ways she wound up grieving two mothers, her first one and me. Oh, yeah, that's hard. So we went through that, and we're close to this day. But sure, there's going to be a roller coaster of feelings through death, marriage, divorce.

Absolutely. It's sweet in the book to hear you talk about how you like to make him laugh. Yeah. How important that was to you. And there's that good little anecdote about you guys going to see Blazing Saddles. Oh, yeah. And the campfire scene cracked him up to the point that he had to excuse himself. Yes, he had to excuse himself.

He practically was down on the floor in his story. Oh, yeah. Anything scatological sent him off the moon. That's funny to know that. You know, we talk about his work a lot on the show. You know, we've told you we've had 260 people come in here. And, you know, Alan Zweibel, who was a comic writer and was a friend of Neil's, and so many other people.

Carl, we've had on the show. And we talk about The Odd Couple a lot. And we talk about Prisoner of Second Avenue. And we both talk about The Sunshine Boys. His impact on the culture, I mean, I'm stating the obvious, and comedy will be felt for generations. Oh, I agree. And the work won't date.

You put The Odd Couple in now, what, 68, 67? Wonderful as ever. Same with The Sunshine Boys. And the same with The Goodbye Girl, which we just watched again. Yeah, it holds up pretty well. Yeah, it does. Wasn't there at one point,

I remember like, I don't know who the hell puts it to a vote they announced that they said Neil Simon is no longer relevant yeah well I think

I'm not exactly sure that that's true no it's not where did you see that, it's not. You know, but... Where did you see that? It was like, it was, maybe it's one of those insane things

that the internet starts, but it was like, I thought, this is so fucking insane. It's not comedy that dates. And you watch Barefoot in the Park now, and like I said, all of these things. You know, the Lost in Yonkers, all of this stuff. Well, see, I think.

It's as good as ever. Yeah, Brighton Beach, Lost in Yonkers, and Broadway Bound as a trilogy are really some of his best work. Because, as you know, in comedy, I mean, what really makes it humorous and funny is the pain. Yes. And that much I really, really understood and learned from him. And I just think what happened when they tried to do the repertory, that they miscalculated how to sell it. Because actually it should have been,

the rep should have been the event, not that it was Neil Simon. And then his material would have possibly. That's interesting. Yeah, because subsequent now we've had all these kind of breakthrough productions that will have two shows or three shows or you see them in rep. You know, when Mark Rylance came it was a huge success so i think if they had done that if they had been more forward thinking in their advertising it would have been much different and just recently uh frank and i had already

lying on this show and we all started exchanging lines from the odd couple. Oh, nice. Which all hold up so well. And also there's the creative children of Neil Simon. There's the writers that were so influenced by him. Oh, yes. There's generations of this work. Exactly. That's out in the world that can be traced back to him.

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Let's talk about Bogart Slept Here because it's some of the most interesting things. In your book, by the way, which I want to plug, it's not a new book, but it's a book worth getting. Journey. Thank you, yeah. And I love, too, how you went through all those alternate titles before arriving at it. But the story of you writing the letter to de niro years later oh yeah it's very moving yeah but just gonna take uh take our listeners back to the backstory it started life as a different script as a movie called bogart slept here based on the life of

dustin hoffman that's correct dustin and his first wife i, Ann, they were living down the street from us, and he had been discovered by Mike Nichols for The Graduate. And he and Neil were talking one day, and they were talking about that experience. And Neil wrote a play called Bogart Sart slept here about a struggling actor with a wife and a couple of young kids who gets a big break um and has a major film director come and changes life overnight changes life overnight and um ray stark was producing and bobby de niro was in it and myself and we we rehearsed and we shot a couple of i think we shot a couple of weeks and the man who changed hoffman's life

was directing yes mike nichols And we ran into difficulty between Mike and Neil in the tone and the direction of the film because Mike had a very specific idea, which I guess they had not really talked out prior to us beginning. And I was kind of caught in the middle because Neil and Mike were having these difficulties and then I was stuck in the middle because I was with one man most of the day and then went home with the other. How uncomfortable. And it was very, it was.

It was extremely difficult. And what happened was everybody, all the powers that be, including the studio at the time, understood that we had a really big problem and that it wasn't going to work. And so we stopped. And De Niro was still kind of in character. He had just come off Taxi Driver. Yes. Right.

Yes, that's part of it. So that must have made it. But, you know, I mean, that's like in some ways I think it's really interesting. It just depends, you know, because there were so many men involved that as a woman observing it all, it was really fascinating to me. But I didn't have a voice in anything, and I couldn't say anything because the men were all the powerful figures. So I had no say, really. really. But there was this moment when Bobby called and said, I really want to try to work this out and make it work. But the men, all of them, the studio, Mike, Neil, whatever, they had made the decision that we weren't going to go forward. And I felt held back.

I felt like I didn't have, there wasn't anything I could do. So then Fade Out, part of it was because they thought that maybe my, that Bobby didn't really understand humor. So it was two years, I think, later. He had not really been in a comedy to that point. No, he hadn't. Been in Magnadrum slowly and Taxi Driver. Yeah, no, no, no.

Yes, exactly. All of that was out there, and he was considered a very serious actor. But he had not done a comedy. So I go off, and I see one of his pictures. Many years later. Well, not too many, actually, but a few, maybe four or five years. And Neil and I had now separated. And And I just was so moved by his performance and his humor and everything that, and actually I don't even think it was a picture that was a comedy. It was the one where he played the Vietnam, that returning. That's it.

So there was something about that thing that prompted me, and I found the address for his production company, and I wrote this letter and basically just said how sorry I was that I didn't fight for him. How nice. And everything. And we wound up talking on the phone, And everything. And we wound up talking on the phone and he was so dear and so sweet and so lovely. And he said he totally understood the position I was in.

And then he referred back to the Cotton Club picture because his then wife was in it. And he said, it's always so complicated when you are working with someone that you're married to. Oh, interesting. And it was so lovely of him that I was finally able to put that to rest. That was nice of you to reach out like that. Yeah, but I wish I had been stronger. I think the women today are, I didn't have that kind of chutzpah, and I didn't feel that I was entitled to compared to how I feel today, where I would brook nothing today compared to then. But that's my own growth and also my position as a woman in the business at that time. Right.

Which was very different. Do dailies exist? Does this footage exist of, has the studio buried it? I don't know. Of Bogart slept here? I have no idea. Interesting. That's really good. Yeah. I don't know. Of Bogart slept here? I have no idea. Interesting. That's really good.

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Very interesting. And also Mike then later, I think in his own conversations with Jack on the HBO interview with Jack O'Brien and stuff, or at certain interviews, he said that was a very difficult time for him. Well, he was also coming off The Fortune, which had flopped. Exactly. And he was, as you write about it in the book.

Well, it happened while we were in pre-production and rehearsal. You said he had a crisis of confidence. Yeah, and he didn't know why The Fortune didn't work, and that scared him a lot. We have to talk about Cinderella Liberty because it's one of Gilbert's favorites. Yes, and I saw it in the theater, and to this day, I remember the theme song was written by Paul Williams. And sung by Paul Williams. And sung by Paul Williams. John Williams and Paul Williams. You're confusing Cinderella Liberty with the Goodbye Girl.

No, no. Goodbye Girl was David Gates. Oh, no. Paul Williams. Right, right. You know, that's right because I asked – I don't know how this came to me. Partly because Mark Rydell was a big jazz enthusiast and we were talking one time and he said, And we were talking one time, and he said, what instrument would you think would be Maggie's big instrument?

And I said the harmonica. And Paul Williams wrote that. I was so stunned. And it goes as follows. I'll do it as Paul Williams. Hello. What a simple way to start a love affair. Oh, my God. Should I speak right out and say how much I care?

Would you take me for a madman or a simple-hearted clown. Hello, with affection from a sentimental fool to a little girl who's broken every rule. One that lifts me up when all the others seem to let me down. One that's nice to be around. Should I say that it's a blue

world without you? He sang this to Paul on the show too. And after a while he had to join in and sing with me. So it was like stereo Paul Williams. Oh that's great. So it was like a stereo pole. Oh, that's great.

I love it. I love it. But I always loved that song. It's a sweet movie. The reason I got confused is because I just had a thing on Facebook or Twitter or something. I think it was Facebook. And somebody sent me a woman in Canada who's been a fan for years, she sent me a picture of Brad, was it Brad who did the Goodbye Girl?

David Gates. David Gates, yeah. Brad. Formerly Brad. Yes. So I got the two confused. You're right. And one of the actors in it, of course, was Eli Wallach, the great character actor.

I loved Eli. Didn't he put the bug in your ear that you might want to do The Good Doctor? He absolutely did. And I'm trying to remember why we knew one another. I can't remember why because he said to me, oh, by the way, I just got a script. I think you'd be great in it or whatever. And it was the Cinderella Liberty script, and he was going to give it to me, and then they were sent. And that's how that whole thing, and I went back and blah, blah, and missed the thing.

But you're right. It was Eli Wallach who first mentioned it to me. Now, you say you didn't, in those days, you didn't have the confidence to speak up the way you do now. But do I have this right? You talked to Rydell. You made a request about changing the ending. I did.

So that's a bold stroke. I did. Well, you know, when it came to material, I have a friend, Jack O'Brien, and some other people tell me that I really can't lie because they can read it on my face. And I saw an original screening and I told Mark that I thought, you're asking us to root for this couple

and then to have them fail or not succeed and especially her is gonna hurt. It's gonna not be good. and he said but that's life that's real interesting so i said okay but then he listened to some extent and they did a voice over and that basketball stuff at the end where jimmy kahn says to the kid, my kid, you know, we're going to go find her. Fade out, it's a year later, and I go down to the public to see an early version of the chorus line. And in this version that Michael Bennett had written in, by the way, The Good Doctor was directed ultimately by Michael Bennett,

that we had two directors. And so Michael had asked Neil to come down and take a look at it. And we went. And in this particular production that night, because they were working on it it was you know basically early in the show uh cassie doesn't make the cut so michael asked my opinion and i said i think you're making a mistake with chorus line uh-huh and i see said, what do you mean? And I said, she has to stay in the line. And he said, well, but it's not real. I said, listen, Mark Rydell said that to me too.

And I said, people do not go to the theater to see life just imitated back at them in the same despairing way that they're experiencing it. So I said, you have to have hope. You have to aspire.

You have to feel better. And they changed it. And Cassie stayed in the line. You heard it here. Marsha Mason personally changed the ending of Chorus Line. Well, I didn't actually. Oh, God. Mason personally changed the ending of Chorus Line. Well, I didn't actually, oh God, Marvin Hamlisch in the documentary for the Chorus Line, I totally forgot the story,

and somebody said to me, oh my God, you changed the whole thing of Chorus Line, and I said, what are you talking about? They said, I just saw the documentary, and Marvin Hamlisch says you changed it. I said, so I went and I saw the documentary, and I didn't know he knew. That's great. So it was true. That's great. I read that in Pretty Woman,

the original ending in the script was he drives her right to where he picked her up, hands her the money, and drives off. It was a much darker script. Yeah. Yeah. Which I would have loved to have seen that ending. You know, it's funny, Cinderella Liberty being a creature of the 70s.

Yeah. And movies, American movies have changed. In those days, an audience would accept that ending. We were in the age of Midnight Cowboy. You could have a downer. But I think that's why The Goodbye Girl was so successful because in those days, you went to these small movie theaters and you filled out cards,

and people were desperate for what they called a family movie. In other words, a movie they could take their kids to. And we had no idea that The Goodbye Girl would be as successful. And part of it was because we just happened to get lucky on that shift out of the darkness into a more positive vein. I will let you know that my wife and I tear up, and we did again Saturday night, when you pick up that guitar and run out on that fire escape in the rain. I love you.

And I get choked up now thinking about it. Well, see, I think we're in dark times. Well, we're in dark times. And so it's good to have a balance, you know, where you have, yeah, dark is a given, but so is light. One of the things that make it great as a romantic comedy is the darkness. And we talked before about that, that Neil could write from that. Yeah, the pain. The scene, and it takes its time putting these two people together.

But you break my heart a hundred times. You put the scene where you're in the street and you're stuffing the spaghetti back in the box. I know, but that's just the truth. Yeah, but there's so much pain to get there, you know? Yeah. It's why I think it's a model romantic comedy that people who want to make romantic comedies should look at. Yeah, yeah. Because it's real.

Yeah. Do you want to tell us about how Paul Newman got you into race car driving since we put it in the intro and now the whole world is wondering what? Oh, my gosh. And you once drove a car 200 miles an hour? Yeah, yeah. I can't picture this. He doesn't drive.

Yeah, yeah. You never got a license, right? No, I was. I was. I was. Well, when you say professional, I was a sports car club, SCCA driver for seven years. I had a team. I've been to most of the tracks in the West and the Midwest. most of the tracks in the West and the Midwest.

And I always brought the car home, and I was made a chevalier by the SCCA. What does that mean, that you were made a chevalier? Somebody who was racing in their 50s. I see. And, yeah, so I did it all, yeah. I had a GT3 car. You bought one at some point? No, it was built. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Well, the very first one I bought was, it was a GT3 car. And I bought it off a kid in Rialto for about $2,500 and put a Mazda engine in it. And had a kind of mom and pop team with a friend of mine who was a lawyer, and it was like a pastime, a hobby. And I was living out in LA at the time, so we went up to Buttonwillow and Springs up there and raced up there, and I got my license there. And then I met up with Mike Lewis out of San Diego, who is a really serious, he's done Le Mans and he's done all the big races and he races a GT1 as well as a GT3. And he ran Mazdas also. So he would help us if we had some motor trouble. So one day he called me up and he said, listen, would you be interested in hooking up together? And I'll give you my championship car because he was

building himself a new one. And you can have my GT3, my old GT3, and we'll do a arrive and drive situation, what they call arrive and drive, meaning you show up. If you crash it, you pay for it and otherwise they take care of it and they you have a you know your your crew and everything so i started racing and i did the scca races and the nassport races so i had about 12 to 15 races a season but out in la with the helmet and the suit oh yeah the whole the whole shebang there's There's a few actors. Well, Paul Newman, of course. Then there was Steve McQueen. Steve McQueen racing.

And James Dean. James Garner raced, too? And Tom Cruise. Tom Cruise. I spent a weekend with Paul and Tom. Wow. Oh, man. Yeah.

It was really fun. You're a serious racer. Yeah, it was great. I mean, people would have to read the book to track your journey from a self-described, you know, good girl growing up in St. Louis to you getting in touch with the rebellious side of yourself that puts you in a race car going 200 miles an hour. I just didn't have enough to do after I got divorced and my career slowed down and I just didn't have enough to do. And my career slowed down, and I just didn't have enough to do. And Paul and I were on a plane together going from New York back out to California. I asked him, what are you doing?

We were sitting in the same cabin. And he told me he was going out to Riverside for the last race. I said, oh, I love racing. And he said, really? And I said, yeah, because when I was in high school, my best friend, one of my girlfriend's father had bought a track, but he had only opened the straightaway, so he was doing, you know, funny cars and stuff like that, or quarter milers.

And after mass on a Sunday, we would go out, and I would hand out the pit passes to the guys. And I was just fascinated by the mechanics of it all. I knew nothing. And so I told this to Paul. So Paul said, oh, well, come out and hang with us. So I did for the weekend. I stayed out of the way and I just watched. And then I happened to ask the crew manager, I said, well, where are you

going next? And they told me. So I showed up and they said, well, and then when the next race, they said, you want to come along? I'll get you an extra room at the motel. So I said, sure. Then sometimes Joanne would come. And so it pretty soon was like that for about a year. And then, yeah, just went on from there. I was once in a race car with Jay Leno. Right. But just, I don't think the average moviegoer associates Marsha Mason with professional racing.

I'm trying to picture it the whole time you were telling this story. Yes, I know. It's really interesting. Well, I went to every school that was imaginable. There were about four of them, Bondra, Jack Russell, all of them. Yeah, so I did. Tell us about James Caan. He's lovely.

We've had people come tell us stories, different stories. Yeah, because he's a complicated guy. But when I first worked with him on Cinderella Liberty, he was the big star. Coming off of Sonny Corleone. Yeah, he was huge. And what was so interesting was how much he gave of himself behind the camera. So when it was my close-up, his performance was the same as when he was on camera. And Vilmer Sigmund, the cinematographer, said he had eyes in the front of his shoes.

He always knew how to hit his mark. So I learned a lot from him. And when we had to do the bedroom scenes and stuff like that, I mean, he had a girlfriend, he had an entourage. I knew nothing. I mean, he had an entourage. I knew nothing. And he was a total gentleman and wonderful. When it came time to do Chapter 2, his whole personal life had changed, and he was having difficulties. So he was in a complicated position at that time. And he felt very upset and angry that he really thought maybe the gambler would give him that leg up for the Academy Award. Pretty good movie, but didn't do a big box office. And it made him angry.

Interesting. Made him angry. Interesting. You know, I read an interview with him, and he said that he was embarrassed by some of the choices that he made in the 70s when he was coming out of The Godfather, but not Cinderella Liberty, that he was particularly proud of that. He was. It was beautiful.

It was a gorgeous performance. And I think the reason they pushed Cinderella Liberty out early, because I was nobody, you know, know to get a nomination that was just shocking and also they rushed the picture out for that you know week between thanksgiving and christmas and it was because of jimmy's performance but it wasn't recognized i heard you say there was so much going on at that particular time that you didn't really get to savor the experience i didn't i didn't because i had married neil i was doing the good doctor on broadway i couldn't go to the golden globes and because we

had gotten married some people thought um it was uh wrong and terrible and they uh they felt that I was the character in Cinderella Liberty. So the girls would get hate mail. Who would be stupid enough to think that? But they did. And they said, how can he marry somebody who plays a whore and all of this kind of stuff? So prostitute or whatever you want to call it. Bizarre. Yeah. I'm interested too,

in the early days and going through the book, you had a nice experience with Peter Falk when you were a very young actress. Oh, I did. And this is years before you would get to work with him on The Chief Detective, but it shows the generosity of the man to a young actor, another young actor. Because I was an extra and it was, here i was in new york just fresh out of college wanting to be an actor and everything and so i thought well and they were shooting this black and white series where he played a lawyer or detective or something series we played a lawyer oh a child of o'brien yes that's's it. I remember. As a kid. So I was an extra.

And because I had done a bunch of commercials, I bought myself, before I became conscious, I bought myself a Canadian fox coat, real fur, which to this day I... in those days in those days so anyway so we're going to do a scene in the old pan am building with the escalators going down to a grand central and i'm sitting around as an extra which is just a thankless job and i see that they're going to shoot some scene with just peter over in a corner somewhere so i go over and i hide behind some flats or whatever in the studio this before the pan am building and i watch him uh act to a uh a drawing on the floor of where the body is supposed to be. And Nehemiah Persoff was. Wow.

So anyway, fade out. Somebody caught me doing this. And so I guess it got back to him. I don't know how it happened. But anyway, I mentioned to him or he knew about it, whatever it was, fade out. We're now in the Pan Am building and we're going down the escalator. And he comes up behind me and he said, or I say to him something like, oh, Mr. Falk, whatever. And he goes, you want to be an actor?

And I said, yes, yes, I do. And everything. And I must have told him, I think I got this coat and everything. So he said, okay, he said, so your mother can see you. I've got to stand right here. And he did so while we're going down the escalator there i am in my canadian fox jacket coat or whatever sweet there's peter falk i just love what a nice thing to do for a young when we were on um um murder by death i told him that story. I was going to ask that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There was a peculiar, well, I mean, I've heard interviews with Neil Simon that he was a big Peter Falk fan.

Yeah. And there was a peculiar production of the Sunshine Boys. Oh, the one with Woody Allen and Peter Falk. Woody Allen and Peter Falk. Yeah, the TV. Yeah. God, I don't remember that. It came and went.

Yeah, it was like a TV movie production. A less successful. Oh, really? And I mean, you know, you can't say anything about the talent of either one of them, Woody Allen and Peter Falk, but it just didn't work. Interesting. And you keep thinking Walter Matthau was just amazing. Yeah, he was great. This wasn't in the book, but I found this in an interview with you.

Joan Rivers and someone else planned to do a female version of The Odd Couple. Yes. They wanted you there. They wanted to run it by you. They wanted a woman present, particularly you. Forgive me, because I'm forgetting. It was Joan Rivers and... God, I can't remember now.

I know they did it with Rita Moreno and Sally Struthers. That's right. But it was two other people. I'm kicking myself. But it was two other people at the time. I don't remember it either. Yeah. Yeah.

But they wanted your input in it. To this day, if you see, if it's one of yours, if it's only when I laugh, if it's the goodbye girl, if it's chapter two, are you one of those actors that can stop and watch? Or do you deconstruct, I can't watch this because I did this wrong and I did that wrong? No, it's not that. I don't have any problem. I can watch the dailies. And what's really cool is I learned this about myself. I don't know why, but I would watch the dailies,

and in those days, the director allowed me to, so if it was Herb Ross or whatever, Bob Moore, that invariably we always picked the same takes. Oh, interesting. invariably we always pick the same takes. Oh, interesting. So I just think truth and the purity of the take just is clear to everybody. And I can be very objective and professional about it.

And like I said, I think that's maybe part and parcel of why Neil respected me. And also I was very respectful of what the scene required and who the character was. But if they come on the television, are you able to escape into the story, or are you thinking about everything that was going on in your life at that particular time? No, you know, actually what happened is I remember there was this one time, this happened quite a while ago, but I heard this voice, and I thought, God, I know that person. Who is that? And then slowly I came around the corner, and it was me on the television in one of the movies. And I said, oh, well, now we really do have to shut it off.

Your own voice. You don't cringe when you watch yourself. No, no, no. Robert Moore did good work. Yes, he did. By the way, Murder by Death and The Chief Detective. And Only When I Laugh. Not Only When I Laugh.

That was Glenn Jordan. But he did some good stuff in Chapter 2. Yeah. Yeah. More people should know about him and should know about his work. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried godfrey's amazing colossal podcast after this can we throw some names at you just to get sure just to get quick reactions uh-huh um because i wrote down some of the wonderful people you worked with we talked about

con um anthony hopkins oh i love tony, not only that, but Tony. And Robert Wise. Yes, but also Tony and I did a play. We actually, it's really sweet, Todd Haynes at the Roundabout said that we helped them save the Roundabout at that moment. Wow. Because I brought Tony out of, because of Audrey Rose, we wanted to do a play together, and we picked Harold Pinter's Old Times, and I got Jane Alexander to do it. Wow.

And the three of us did it for the roundabout, and it helped them keep their company alive. There's an actor I can watch do absolutely anything. Oh, he's brilliant. There's no such thing as a bad movie with Anthony Hopkins holding your attention. There was that one with Chris Rock. I don't even know that one. Oh, Bad Company. Yeah.

Yeah, but I mean, even movies like Magic and Hearts of Atlantis. Yeah, no, he's a great actor. No, he's really good. You can't take your eyes off the guy. What about the great Albert Finney? Oh, I love it. I loved Albert. Yeah.

It was great to work with. You know, the Brits are really interesting, and especially the actors. They have, I don't know if it's because they have the confidence of their country. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, they're treated seriously. And they can go from theater to television to film, and they can work through all of their ages, and they're revered, and they're given knighthoods and they're considered royalty even though they have a monarchy in that country people say that actors movie stars are the royalty of america but it's not true because the minute a woman gets of a certain age she's just you know go away so they're allowed to become esteemed

older actors yeah and maybe maybe we're going to get there with uh you know today's hollywood and the me too movement but most people do not i still have that tacky sort of, I don't know, attitude, I think, about people who are actors. Yes, they are revered. They're respected. Don't get me wrong. But at the same time, it isn't really the same. I get it. And tell us about your one day's work on Dark Shadows.

Was it one day? Did we have that right? I think it was probably just. You were a hooker who turned into a vampire? That's right. Perfect. I learned a new word. I learned a new word because the description was she's a doxy.

And I didn't know what that meant. And it meant a woman who worked on the docks who was a prostitute for the sailors or whatever. It's called a doxy. And then I became a werewolf or whatever you call it. That's great. And so I did my hair and the makeup and the whole thing. So you were a hooker werewolf? I was a hooker werewolf.

I had it wrong. I thought it was a vampire. No, I was a hooker werewolf. That's hilarious. And I remember what I remember. It's a classy show, actually. Yeah. It was a stylish show.

Dark Shadows. I used to watch it because I loved anything to do with monsters. But I remember even back then knowing this was like a zero budget production. Oh, totally. Totally. Black and white. What about the great Jason Robards? Oh, my God.

And Max Dugan Returns. Yeah. A movie I like. It was so wonderful. It was so great. He was so at ease. Talk about casual, laid back, right on the money.

You're talking about these great British thespians, but you worked with your share of, when you're dropping names like Eli Wallach and Jason Robards and Albert Finney, we'll count Albert Finney as an American actor, but still, you worked with... No, you're absolutely right. Giants.

Yeah, absolutely. You had nice chemistry in that film, you and Robards. Oh, beautiful. Well, I had such respect for him because I told him that in All the President's Men, he has this moment where he finally decides to tell Woodward and those guys to go forward. camera on Jason he turns around and it's on his back and he's walking away and the camera holds on him just him and he just kind of does this thing on the desk as he's I know what you're leaving and that moment moments that actors great actors have always sort of resonate. So when I was doing a television movie about, was with Kiefer Sutherland when he was, I don't know, 18 or something. And I play a doctor and he's this difficult child. And I have this moment where we make a kind of breakthrough, and I stole it.

I just stole it from Jason. I'm sitting on a desk, I think, or whatever, and I just went, just like that. It was my homage to Jason Roberts. So when we shot the movie together, Max Dugan, I told him the story. And one actor who I'm not going gonna leave alone till he agrees to do the podcast oh george siegel george we've been chasing him since you have oh and they want me to do a documentary on him so i can tell them he has to come and do your show before i'll do we even have actor friends of his like like Ron Liebman and Jessica, asking him.

But for some reason, we haven't been able to. So since he won't talk to us, can you tell us what he's like? You have that nice story where you auditioned for Bloom in Love, and then what? You disappeared to London to clear your head? Yes, I ran into him. I was hoping that I would get the job, and I hadn't heard, and no news is good news. And I see him in the park in London, and I go rushing up to him to say, oh, my God, Mr. Siegel, I'm just such a big fan, and I want you to know I auditioned for Bloom and Love and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. for bloom and love and blah blah blah blah blah and he's kind of you know like who is this person because i'm really sort of over the top here and um and then of course i immediately heard that i

did not get the job and i went into a deep depression but then wound up getting to do the job so you never know what destiny has when you for you. When you got on Bloom in Love and then he made the connection, did he say, this is the girl that kept him running up to me? You know, I'm not sure he did. I told him. I said, do you remember that crazed girl that was coming up to you? And he said, yeah. And I said, it was me.

That's funny. And you say that you had the good fortune to work with two directors who were actors early on. Yeah, I really think, yeah. And Rydell's on Facebook, so we're going to invite him to do this show. I don't know if you stay in touch with him. Yes, I saw him a couple of years ago. We had lunch.

We had Bruce Dern here, and he talked about the Cowboys. Yeah. And so we have to ask Mark to do the show. But Mazursky, too. I mean, you were fortunate. Yeah, I was. To be working with these people

who knew acting, knew how to protect. Yeah, and I think that's really why I was able to transition to film from just being a theater person was because they made it easy for me. They gave me the direction and the confidence to just make that shift. Whereas nowadays, people worry about it and have to take separate classes and all of that. I think those two gentlemen really were instrumental in being able to talk to me and communicate to me actor to actor. So that at the same time, they were really good movie directors,

they were also good actor-directors. What pointers would you give to young acting students? Don't anticipate or you'll get hit in the head like Rip Torn. Yeah. Gave you a whack. Yes. I wouldn't recommend that but i was gonna all these nice character actors that we're talking about you also survived rip torn and norman mailer i mean i think

um it's really difficult because the business has changed so much um nowadays what's asked of the actor in order to be in the films is branding and all this other stuff. So if you're a serious actor, I think you have to get really good at your craft. I think you have to go to museums. I think you have to read. I think you have to go to museums. I think you have to read. I think you have to study. I think you have to do everything you can to immerse yourself in a creative environment because, especially for film, your window is so small if you don't break out in a movie nowadays you can't learn your craft doing it you you have to come prepared i remember holly hunter um gave very good advice uh as an independent um when you're doing independent film you know you have no time anymore. See, we had two weeks rehearsal on most of the films I did. Oh, interesting.

On the sets or not location, but certainly on the sets if you had sets. So nowadays, you don't have that. You have got to have made your choices, take really good care of yourself, do it well, listen to the director, but follow your gut. That's the advice you'd give them. Yeah. And I've heard you say that you think it's beneficial that people do each other's jobs at least once. Oh, I... That an actor should direct. Absolutely. And a director should act. Yes. And everybody should try to write. Yeah. And it doesn't have to be published. Develop empathy for the... Yeah, exactly.

To have a respect for the discipline. Because until you do it, you don't really understand what it takes to do it. That's why when I... I remember I was working with a young director at a film school. And in those days, he and... John Mahoney and I did a 20-minute... You worked with him a lot, John Mahoney. Yeah, a piece of film for and in those days uh he and john mahoney and i did a 20 minute worked with him a lot yeah a piece of film for this young director and he was you know doing the 20 minutes to get money to do the whole picture he had no vocabulary with which to talk to us and he and john and i had

a long conversation about it nowadays uh the film film departments in schools and stuff are much more open, and they're trying to integrate, even like at Columbia, for example. For years, the directing and the acting didn't even know one another. I mean, it's ludicrous. But, yeah, I think that's really it, is you have to have empathy, but you also have to have respect for the discipline. You enjoy working, doing Frasier with Mahoney. You look like you were having a good time. Oh, yeah, I had a great time.

And I never saw you play a part like that, like she was a good time girl. I know, yeah. Well, you go back to Cinderella Liberty. Right. back to cinderella liberty right you know but people's perceptions and this is the problem today for young actors is that they're they're categorized they're they're um they're they belong to a group oh she's this or she he's that and that's the problem because as an actor you don't think of yourself that way but that's pretty much much. You have to, I remember I was teaching a master class at Carnegie Mellon, and the kids were saying to me,

well, how do I brand myself? How do I? And I said, what are you talking about? Because when Bobby De Niro, Bob Redford, Jane Fonda, myself, when we all came up, none of that, we didn't talk about that. We were just supposed to be really good at what we did, which was to act. So we weren't categorized.

But nowadays, everybody is categorized. They're put into a group. Oh, she's funny or she's this. And that's how they're casting. So you're telling me Gilbert could do Lear if he wanted to. Actually, I think maybe that's true. That's a scary notion. This is a cliched question that's been asked, but is comedy harder?

I know you believed, as Neil did, to do it like drama. Oh, you have to do it for real because that makes it funny if it's well written i'm watching you in fraser and you come blasting into this this this i think i watched the episode where you you made your debut and you know maggie you compare her to maggie and cinderella liberty but she's a tragic character yeah this this character is just and i never saw you play anything like that. Yeah. Well, what was interesting is. Throwing a bottle of cold duck.

Yeah, I heard that a couple of the producers when my name came up, because John was anxious to have some material for himself because he had signed on. And the original idea for the series was much more about him and the two guys. And then, of course, what happened was people got more interested in the two guys. So the bottom line was that John needed, you know, he needed to be able to explore his character a little bit more. And he put me on a short list of, I think, with other people. So when the name came up and everything,

there were some of the producer, writer-producers, who thought I was, quote-unquote, a Giorgio Armani type, not a, you know, ex-showgirl. That's like saying you were an L.A. actress. Good doctor. Exactly. So what was really interesting, though, is when I read the script and everything,

they did send it to me and asked if I would do it. is when I read the script and everything, they did send it to me and asked if I would do it. I talked to the costume person who I had never met, and I said, I have some ideas. And she said, yeah. And the two of us totally got right away who the character was from the clothes. And I account that to my training as an actor, because costume means a lot in terms of telling you who the character is or whatever.

days and they give you some rewrites and then because it was all done live at that time for camera and then all the producers come for everybody was like you know knocked off their we we had it solid yeah it was great in it you're you're about the only guest we've had on the podcast who's done research on me we didn't have the mics on, but to catch our listeners up, Marsha came in and she was excited that she'd read an article about Gilbert in Vulture. Well, I direct you to see his wonderful performance

in the movie Aladdin. I haven't seen it yet. Okay, I'm looking forward. I read about that. Seems like they call on you and just said, we need the laugh, and that's it. We'll go in, and they pay you for five minutes. Do you see someone like Gilbert, who's an absurd, broad comic, do you see him being versatile enough to play a dramatic role if he put his mind to it?

Yes, but only if he wanted to. How about that? Only if he wanted to. What do you think, Gil? Yeah. His life is at any rate? Yeah. I'll do nothing but Tennessee Williams plays for now on.

I never sang for my father. Yeah. Oh, that's right. This is a crazy question. You think Elliot and Paula would have stayed together? Yeah. And made a run to the end? Yeah.

I'd like to think so. Yeah. And I think mostly because of Richard's character. He was just too much fun to be around that you would want to lose that. We were watching the other night, and we've seen it a bunch of times, and my wife turns to me and she says, he's just charming. Yeah. He was great.

He was just great. And that was a good marriage of actor and writer yeah don't you think? oh totally totally totally yeah

and when we did Prisoner of Second Avenue in London we had a we had a huge success there again because I think of that chemistry you just picked up

where you left off yeah that's so great totally wonderful and also I knew how to reign him in you know because if you let Richard go, you know what I mean, there's no stopping him.

And there was this one, I remember there was this one performance where he has to go kind of semi-nuts, but he went full out nuts, and he's practically climbing some bookshelves and I have the next line and he's going on so I just folded my hands and I waited and the audience is laughing at him and he's it's feeding him more and more so by this time he looks like an orangutan you know climbing the bookshelves and finally he sort of like comes to and he looks at me and i just said are you finished that's fantastic wait but that's the kind of special chemistry we had yeah and neil was thrilled with it just luck in a way yeah you couldn't make you couldn't build it you, no, you can't make that up. No. Yeah.

We're going to tell people to read your book which you published in 2000, Journey, A Personal Odyssey. Oh, thank you. And read all the different titles that you almost went through. And I find it,

as I said, I find it fascinating that you're bringing up names like Edward Arnold and Lionel Barrymore. We love character actors here. We love the James Cocos of the world. Oh, yes. Absolutely. We love the James Cocos of the world.

Oh, yes. Absolutely. And the Bruno Kirby's and the John Mahoney's. And these people, they don't get enough, too. I mean, movies lost those characters for a long time. I mean, Joe Pesci's bringing them back. Oh, you mean like the – To this day, we still don't –

Like the Edward Everett Horton type of actors? Yes. We don't have – Well, any kind of really interesting character actor. Right. If you think about it, what film can we name other than, I mean, I think about, because only because Joe Pesci is getting so much press now, and I think Marty Scorsese dealt in character actors, you know.

But for the broad swath of film. I know. Well, you don't have the the broad swath of film. I know. Well, you don't think the Turturros are out there? Yes. Well, absolutely. You have to look for them. But they're not revered like they were in the 40s and the 30s. No.

Yeah. No, they were great. You're a TCM person like us? Do you sit there and watch these oldies? That's how I grew up. And get into this stuff? I mean, I remember David Susskind's Play of the Week in black and white. Million dollar movie. watch these oldies and i that's how i grew up get into this stuff watching i mean i remember david suskind's play of the week and black and white million dollar movie one time bob bosborn i went

on we had him here on the programmer with him oh he was wonderful great great yeah and part of the problem is too is that the studio wannabes the the executives, for a long time, I don't know if this is true today, but for quite a while there, they didn't even know who anybody was from the 70s. It's crazy. It's one of the reasons we do this show. We're trying to keep these names alive. We're trying to keep this history alive. You know, Jessica Walter said to us as we were walking her out to the elevator, don't ever stop doing this. I directed her, you know.

Did you? Yes. She's great. And Steel Magnolias, and she was fabulous. She's a gem. She said keep doing this because she sees it as a public service. She's right. As we do.

You know, and watching something like The Cheap Detective or Murder by Death, you see, these are movies made by movie lovers. Sheep Detective or Murder by Death. You see, these are movies made by movie lovers. That Neil had such a love for Alicia Cooke Jr. Yeah. And Paul Houndreid. Yeah. And these people, and Sidney Greenstreet.

Well, yeah. He did. He loved them. We had Danny Houston in here, John Houston's son. Oh, wow. A couple of weeks ago, we were talking about this. There's a character actor. Totally. And he does a great John Hughes meditation.

Marcia, what's next? What's chapter three? Well, I've been directing more and more now, so that's really good. And I just finished a play at the Irish Rep, actually. Played a North Dublin grandmother. That's in your neighborhood, the Irish Rep. Yes.

You better go see it. Little gem. No, we just finished. We finished about three weeks ago. One of our other guests. Matthew Broderick was doing something at Irish Rep. Yeah, Matthew's worked there. Absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. So you're directing and you're enjoying it. No more racing. No more racing. So Matthew is an Irish Jew, I think. Well, he's definitely Irish. Yeah. If he is,

that puts him in, I have this whole category of Irish Jews. Jack Warden, Leo Gorsi from the Bowery Boys. Well, of course, Ben Stiller. Right.

Oh, well, Harrison Ford. Right. Very good. The things he thinks about. These are the things that you preoccupy yourself with. Yes, yes. It's very interesting. See, we got through a whole interview.

We never brought up Hot Rod Hullabaloo. People will have to do their own research. Yeah, they should. We want to thank you. Oh, thank you very much. I've had a great time. Thank you. And schlepping out for us.

And we want to thank Mark Malkoff. You did the Carson podcast with Mark. I did. So this is your second podcast. Oh, actually, that's right. I forgot that. He put us in touch with you. Oh, thank you.

So we want to thank Mark. I did. I loved Johnny. He was really nice. And people should read your book. People who want to be an actor or want to be a creative person. It's fascinating. Thank you.

Your childhood is fascinating. Oh, thank you. St. Louis, too. Thank you. And the whole journey. Well, if they want the book or something and have difficulty finding it, they can go on Facebook, and I'll get it to them. You're on Facebook?

Yeah. Oh, so you're out there. I'm out there. I'm on Twitter. I'm on Facebook. We will share with you the social media responses to this episode. You will be pleasantly flattered. Okay, good.

So this has been Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre, and we have been speaking to the hooker werewolf herself, Marcia Mason. That's a great Marcia Mason. Marcia, you've probably done 5,000 interviews. I'll bet no one has ever serenaded you as Paul Williams.

No one has ever, and I feel thrilled. This was a joy for us. A joy for me, too. Thank you so much. I have a whole new career. I'm a werewolf. A hooker werewolf. A hooker werewolf.

A doxy. A doxy. A fucker whip. A doxy. A doxy. away I know it's hard believing the words you've heard before But darling you must trust them just once more Cause baby goodbye doesn't mean forever Let me tell you goodbye Love for me Will never be together again

If you wake up and I'm not there I won't be long away Cause the things you do My goodbye girl Will bring me back to you I know you've been taken Afraid to hurt again You fight the love you feel for me

Instead of giving in But I can wait forever By helping you see That I was meant for you and you for me So remember goodbye That I was meant for you and you for me. So remember goodbye doesn't mean forever. Let me tell you goodbye doesn't mean we'll never be together again Though we may be so far apart, you still

would have my heart So forget your past, my goodbye girl, cause now you're home at last I'm going to go. Darragh Gottfried and Frank Santapadre with audio production by Frank Furtarosa. Web and social media is handled by Mike McPadden, Greg Pair, and John Bradley-Seals.

Special audio contributions by John Beach. Special thanks to John Fodiatis, John Murray, and Paul Rayburn.