Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Michael Lehmann

Episode Date: July 27, 2020

Gilbert and Frank talk with director and producer Michael Lehmann ("Heathers," "Airheads," "True Blood," "American Horror Story") about hotheaded producers, 70s paranoia thrillers, the artistry of Francis Ford Coppola, the effectiveness of "The Exorcist" and the reassessment and reevaluation of "Hudson Hawk." Also, Warren Beatty lends a shoulder, Ed Begley plays a giant insect, James Coburn adopts a chimp and Harold Ramis receives a hero's welcome. PLUS: William Conrad! "The Beaver Gets a Boner"! Appreciating Joe Mantegna! Michael directs Carl Reiner! And the boys sing the praises of "The Maltese Falcon" and "My Darling Clementine"! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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with 24 layers of croissant flakiness twisted with fancy donut fun. Get ready to go all out for less. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Our guest this week is a producer, screenwriter, accomplished director of popular feature films and acclaimed TV shows. He's helmed the episodes of Veronica Mars, Dexter, The West Wing, True Blood, Big Love, Nurse Jackie, Homicide, Life on the Street, The Larry Sanders Show, Blunt Talk, and American Horror Story, just to name a few. A little over three decades ago, he directed his very first feature, the much-admired black comedy, Heathers. And he would go on to direct the films Airheads, The Truth Because I Said So, and the infamous 1991 action comedy Hudson Hawk.

More about that later. He's also the executive producer of a favorite film of Frank and I, Tim Burton's Ed Wood, or as we like to call it, Scott Alexander and Larry Kazooski's Ed Wood. Oh, Larry's gonna kill you

for mispronouncing his name. Karazoski. Karazoski. I could never pronounce. Fuck him. Sorry, Larry. Especially since Larry and Scott wrote Problem Child 1 and 2. So I should learn their names. In a career that started way back when he was answering phones for Francis Ford Coppola, he's gone on to direct everyone from Diane Keaton to James Coburn to Martin Sheen to Jessica Lange to Bruce Willis and at least a dozen of our podcast guests, including Danny Aiello, Ed Begley Jr., Dick Cabot, Pat Noswalt, Bruce Stern, Michael Keaton, Jeffrey Tambor, and the late, great Paul Reiner.

great Paul Reiner. Please welcome to the show a fellow movie obsessive and an artist of many talents and a man who, like yours truly, can't resist a bad punch. Michael Lehman. Michael, how are you? Good. How are you guys? I want to start by apologizing to Larry Karaszewski and also Michael McKean, who Gilbert called Michael Keaton. Right. I was trying to remember when I worked with Michael Keaton, but I couldn't. I came up with nothing. Couldn't remember that one, huh?

You directed Batman, didn't you? Yes, of course. Many of them. What's this about bad puns? I reached out to Larry and Scott, who've done this show twice. And I said, your buddy Layman is on. And Larry said he cannot resist a good or a bad pun. And, you know, that makes you a man after Gilbert's heart.

Good. But I'm going to try as hard as I can during our conversation to not make any puns whatsoever. Just to prove Larry wrong. Gilbert, your Twitter feed is all puns. Yeah. I just...

Why did the alphabet take laxative? So they could have a vowel movement. Okay, see? movement. Okay. See? Yes. Good. Thank you.

Highbrow. Now, if I'm not out of line, what did mankind do as a species that Hudson Hawk was inflicted on? Yes, I wake up every morning and I say what did I do how could this happen what did I do wrong I'm a good guy I'm a nice guy I've tried to be really really gentle and kind and giving and you know

no I'm completely screwed somehow or another that landed in my lap and I've had to live with it ever since. It's a burden like nobody else carries in the movie business. Now, how did that come about? Well, you know, it came about because Joel Silver, who produced Hudson Hawk, and whom you know well. Oh, Port Fairlane.

Yeah. Joel saw Heathers, my first film, and he said, I love this film. I got to get this guy. I got to get these guys who did it. And he contacted Daniel Waters, who wrote Heathers, who also wrote Ford Fairlane. You may know that. There you go, Gil.

And he started to work with Dan. And somewhere along the way there, he called me. And he said, I love your movie. I want to do something with you. And he I believe he suggested, you know, I've got this project Hudson Hawk with Bruce Willis. And it's an action adventure film. And he sent me the script, which was a very good script by Steve D'Souza. But pretty much, you know, what you would expect from Joel and Bruce at that time. Steve D'Souza, but pretty much, you know, what you would expect from Joel and Bruce at that time. And I read it and I said, I'll do this if I can turn it on its head and make the, you know,

the weird version of this that's unexpected and has a different kind of humor. And I'd like Dan Waters to write it and see what we can do. And Joel was like, ah, that's great. That's so good. It's going to be fantastic. You know, Bruce loves you guys. It's going to be terrific. And, and he did support that very much. And so did Bruce. And we, we concocted that kind of crazy movie that, that was made. It was a little tough to get it done the way I wanted, but you know, that's a whole other story, but that's how it happened. I basically, man, people said to me, you're crazy. Why why are you doing this why are you working with these guys you've just made a movie that everybody's watching and talking about you could do anything i said it's so far removed from what i think i normally would do that i you know i want to try it i want to see what i can do in the genre it's a huge mistake Now, this was a movie to make Bruce Willis happy. Well, it was a...

So Bruce, he developed an original script based on a character that he conceived. And I think the guys, Reno and Osborne, who are writers on Bruce's show, the one with the – Oh, Moonlighting. Yeah, right. Yeah. They wrote a few drafts.

I never read them. It was all about Hudson Hawk, the cat burglar, and it was a pet project of his. It was something he wanted to do. It was a character that he was really interested in. he wanted to do. It was a character that he was really interested in. And so, you know, somehow or another, it made its way to Steve D'Souza and it made its way to Joel because Joel was doing Die Hard with Bruce. And, you know, you could say it was a vanity project, but that would be unfair to vanity projects. By the way, speaking of Daniel Waters, who wrote Fort Fair Lane,

Gilbert, and who wrote this movie, and Heather's, you know who else he worked with? Michael Keaton. Oh, see? See, it all comes together. There you go. And he never worked with Michael McKeon.

Well, you know, we were talking on the phone Michael and you you told me something like the the the the concept of the movie kept changing that it was it was one thing one week and that do I have do I have this a sense of this for Hudson Hawk yeah well it was a heist movie it was then it was a then it was an action movie then it was a heist movie, then it was an action movie, then it was a crazy comedy. It was a heist movie about a character who did robberies and didn't carry a gun and never shot anyone. And that was always consistent. The nature of the character, the level of the silliness of the humor, the references, the point of view, that changed a lot because Dan and I didn't want to make we didn't want to make a diehard style right down the middle by the numbers action movie. And I think diehards movies, I think the diehard movies are fantastic.

It's not that I don't like those movies. We all like those movies. It's just we didn't want to do that. So what we did was we went down a road of, you know, kind of oddball, unexpected points of view. And that changed. But it's you know, I'd say actually what happened, what happened to that film. Well, many things happened in that film. But one of the things that happened in that film was that Bruce was very invested in it. And he had a lot of ideas. And, you know, God bless him. It was his project.

He had every right. He was a producer on it. He was the star. He had every right to have ideas. That was all understood. But sometimes his ideas were different than Dan's ideas and different than my ideas and different than Joel's ideas and different than the studio's ideas. And it was always difficult to figure out how to make everyone happy enough to stay on the same page.

And I don't honestly, I don't believe everybody ever did stay on the same page. It has some great moments. Yeah. I mean, the high sequences with the so with Danny, who was who's done this show, we'll ask you about Danny. Yeah. With Danny and Bruce breaking into song are a lot of fun. this show will ask you about Danny. Yeah. With Danny and Bruce breaking into song are a lot of fun. I mean, there's, you know, there are some terrific performance.

The British actor who's playing the villain, his name just went. Yeah, Richard Grant. Richard Grant is hilarious. Yeah. You know, I won't say that it's just flat out a bad film. Too many people have said that for me. Including Gilbert. But I will say that in a certain sense,

we set out to make that ridiculous film and unfortunately we succeeded. You know, it just, we didn't want to do it the way everybody expected and the choices we made, I do think there's tons of good stuff in it. But clearly, if it held together and was a perfect masterpiece, then we wouldn't be talking about it now this way. It's a little bit of it's a little bit of everything. I mean, it turns into a live action cartoon. Yes. At certain points.

I mean, he's he moves his body in a way that's physically impossible when he's fighting James Coburn. Yes. Uh, in the, in the, in the climax, uh,

it, it, it's, it's got everything in it. It's, it's a kitchen sink movie. Is it fair? Is it fair to say that?

It's got everything in it and more and less. Now tell us about James Coburn. Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, that, you know, by the way, that was a, you know, a thrill of a lifetime for me because I love the Flint movies and President's Analyst. And that stuff came out when I was a kid. I loved those movies.

So, you know, when we had this character that Dan Waters conceived that character and, you know, George Kaplan, I guess. With a Hitchcock reference. Yeah, with a Hitchcock reference. And I don't remember how we came up with it, but I certainly I may have had the idea. I don't know. I love the idea of Coburn. We pursued him. I don't think he'd worked a whole lot right around that time. And, you know, it was a big deal for me and great to work with him.

I just all day long, I'd ask him questions like, what was it like working on Duck, You Sucker? You know, tell me about tell me about Sergio Leone and how he worked. Tell me about all these movies. And he was a very sweet man and he was very professional clearly or else he wouldn't have been there um and uh and he treated me well but i could tell the whole time that he would just look at me and shake his head and think you know what i don't think we've ever brought we haven't had too many conversations about james coburn on this show gilbert no and 320 shows and we think we've ever brought, we haven't had too many conversations about James Coburn on this show, Gilbert. No. In 320 shows, and we've covered a lot of ground.

We have to jump to Danny, but before Danny, William Conrad, of all people, is the narrator of this picture. Yes, and so this happened because we'd always conceived of having a sort of fairy tale narrative opening to the movie, but we never really dealt directly with how we were going to do it until the movie was in post. And at that point, I was a huge Bullwinkle fan. You know, a huge Bullwinkle fan. And I said, this fucking movie, look, why don't we see who did the Bullwinkle?

Who did the narration for Bullwinkle? And I didn't know. I should have known. It was William Conrad. So I said, you mean the Jake and the Fat Man William Conrad? And people said, yes, that's him. So I said, well, let's find out if he's willing to do this. And we found out that for whatever the price was, he would be willing to come in and do it. And he was pretty old and he was pretty crusty and he came into a recording studio. And I remember a couple of things. I remember saying, did you really do all that

Bullwinkle Stephanie did run right into the voice, Frostbite Falls, you know, the whole thing. That's great. And, and then I also realized as he came in that he had been a long time television director, directed hundreds you know over well over a hundred episodes of television himself didn't know that so yeah and there was original matt dylan uh he was on the radio really gun smoke yeah yeah yeah he was an amazing guy and willis was in the studio with him and tried to tell him what to do a couple times and you know we were all there wills would say do it like this and i remember william conrad just turning and looking

at him and going like don't tell me what to do it was a real meeting of the of the minds what about danny who did one of our first episodes of this show? I think it was one of our first 25, Gil, or 20. But we just lost him, too. What a character. What a larger-than-life guy. He is a terrific guy. I mean, in a way, he saved me on that movie because he was a prince the entire time.

He was lovely to work with. He was supportive. And, you know, he and Bruce didn't always – they were good friends. So he came into it happily, and he and Bruce were on good terms. By the end, they weren't getting along so well. Oh, that's too bad. Yeah. But, you know, it's a huge loss, Danny.

I mean, he was amazing. Yeah, we absolutely loved him. You know, it's funny, and I read an interview with you. I know you've seen some of these articles. I mean, Hudson Hawk certainly has its fans. Yes, there are four of them. There are these websites, AV Club. There's a site called Flavor Wire.

There's a site called Den of Geek. I'm going to send you these articles. People reevaluating Hudson Hawk. In fact, there was a piece in The New Yorker a couple of years ago. That I read. You even got compared to Howard Hawks, which was a nice compliment. Every once in a while, I get a backhanded compliment for that movie. But I think the film, in some ways, is being reconsidered and re-evaluated.

The movie was in many ways, this is ridiculous to say, but I'm going to say it anyway. In some ways, its comic sensibility was a little ahead of its time. Because a lot of the things that we were doing and that Daniel wrote and wrote so brilliantly, whether they were done right in the movie or not, is anybody's guess. A lot of those things started showing up later on. I mean, I'll be random here in, you know, something about Mary.

Remember that? Sure. Yeah. The dog goes flying out the window, right? Oh, yes. And I watched this and I said, fuck me. We did that joke in Hudson Hawk. That's right. And all I did was get punished for it me. We did that joke in Hudson Hawk. That's right.

And all I did was get punished for it. You know? Yeah. Not that this. And the Farrelly brothers weren't punished for that joke. No, the Farrelly brothers got, you know, the proper accolades for that joke because in their movie it was very, very funny. Well, my wife wants to know how he had his hat once they were in Rome since they put

him in the box in the crate and mailed him to Italy without the hat on how did he still how did how did the hat surface when they were climbing the you don't know that all those pellets there didn't contain a hat it was in packing peanuts you? There was a hat in there. I have a couple of, I'll get to a couple of questions from listeners later in the show, Michael. A couple of fans of Hudson Hawk. There is an in-joke, there is a Mr. Ed joke, which is a little bit of an in-joke for you. Yeah.

Two. The Pope, which we'll get to. Because you did a Mr. Ed for saturday night live years ago i did it's my first professional directing job yeah so so was that intentional or was it just you just reached for mr ed as a clip when you need the clip of the pope i you know it could have been dan waters um doing that as you know teasing me about having made a Mr. Ed movie, because I believe he wrote that in the script. I mean, it could have been that he wrote that the pope was watching TV and I said he should be watching Mr. Ed. I can't remember. But it's that's certainly within Dan Waters.

You know, that's that's his his kind of humor. I've never seen a movie where I can't think of a movie where everybody in one scene where everybody was over the top. Where like Sandra Bernhardt's over the top and Richard Grant is over the top and the wonderful

well, Coburn and the bit actors that are playing the CIA agents. Yeah. It's kind of fun to watch everybody, if I may say, overact at the same time. Well, what's really fun is that I was telling him to underplay. What's that? What's really funny is that I was telling him to underplay the whole time.

Were you? Yes, of course. And David Caruso. That's right. Yes, a And David Caruso. That's right. Yes, a mute David Caruso. Very strange. Yeah, like dancing in a diaper at one point. I think he becomes a statue. Yes.

He's painted like a statue. Yes, he becomes a statue. Yeah, yeah. It's a wild movie. And I love Danny's line when he survives the fiery crash. Yes. Airbags, can you fucking believe it? Well, look, you know, we all talk badly about the film,

but when you start going into these little details, there's a lot of stuff in it that is really genuinely very funny. A lot of funny stuff. And you've always had a good sense of humor about it, I mean, since day one. And you told me on the phone that people still approach you on sets. They do. I walk onto the set when I'm doing a television show, and invariably one or two people from the crew go, dude, you directed Hudson Hawk. And I say, I'll give you your money back. You know, that's all I can do.

And they go, no, no, no. I love that film. I had an actor who told me that it was his favorite movie. He watched it with his father. He introduced me to his father and said, it's Michael. He directed Hudson Hawk. And the father was like, wow, incredible to meet you. So yeah, they're fans out there. And they're French like Hudson Hawk. Yeah. And you worked with Francis Ford Coppola. Yeah. And you worked with Francis Ford Coppola.

I did. I had that was my first movie job. I I grew up in San Francisco and Coppola was, you know, had had his set up in San Francisco. And when I got out of college in New York and came back to San Francisco trying to figure out what to do to work in the movies, I managed to land a job as the receptionist answering the phones at Coppola's company. And I did that. I ended up working for him for a full three years and moved to L.A. on a film called One from the Heart, which is sort of Francis's Hudson Hawk.

Oh, shit. Yeah. Right. Terry Garr. Who was it? Frederick Forrest? Yeah. Yeah. Raul Julia. Raul Julia. Yeah. Right. Terry Garr. Who was it? Frederick Forrest? Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Lou Hendershanks. Raul Julia. Yeah. I remember liking that picture, too. Yeah. That is actually a really... That movie needs to be rediscovered, I think, because it was a real failure at the time, and a lot of people were disappointed in it following Apocalypse Now.

But in fact, it's a very inventive movie and it's visually stunning with the sets by Dean Tavallaris. Yes. And the Storaro photography is amazing. And it was quite an education to work on it. And now Coppola, I mean, that's a legendary director. So what did you learn from him? Well, apparently I didn't learn much because I went on to make Hudson Hawk. Have you ever talked to Francis about Hudson Hawk?

No. What his take is. I don't know. I'm sure he never saw it. By the way, you're in good company, Michael, because we had Erwin Winkler on this show. Yes. Man produced Rocky and Goodfellas

and the wonderful They Shoot Horses, don't they? And all Gilbert would talk about were his flops. Yes, it's fine. What else do you want to talk? I mean, by the way, when Hudson Hawk came out, I was at home in L.A. and, you know, a little depressed, as you can imagine. And the phone rang. And my wife at the time answered the phone and said, Michael, it's Warren Beatty. I said, oh, somebody's fucking with me. I picked up the phone. Hi, Michael, it's Warren Beatty. I said, Oh, somebody's

fucking with me. I picked up the phone. Hi, Michael. It's Warren Beatty. I said, Hi, Warren. He goes, I just want you to know basically that you're in good company that, you know, he knows what it's like. He made Ishtar. He said, I know what it's like to be in the position you're in. And it was a very supportive and very friendly phone call. What a lovely thing to do. Oh, man.

You were compared, your film was compared to Ishtar. By Warren Beatty. Yeah. Wow. I like Ishtar. I really think,

I really think he was gleefully saying, now people won't talk about Ishtar anymore. They'll talk about Hudson Long. He was tagging you. You're it. I like Ishtar, too.

I must be nuts. Yeah. And the minority. No, everybody loves Ishtar now. It was just at the time, nobody liked it at all. We talk about Coppola a little bit. Gilbert was a guest programmer on TCM, and one of the films you picked, Gilbert, was The Conversation. Well, The Conversation

is an amazing movie. Gilbert, is that a favorite of yours? Yeah. Gene Hackman, John Casals. Yes. Yeah. I mean, amazing film. The late Alan Garfield. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Alan Garfield is

phenomenal in them. He is. Oh, and Harrison Ford. Yes. Harrison Ford, young Cindy Williams. Cindy Williams. Yeah. What's a wonderful movie. Yeah.

I wonder. I haven't seen it in years. Probably holds up pretty well. It does. And it was like one of those perfect for its time, because that's when it was a paranoid time period of Watergate and everything. Yeah, he'd kill us if he had a chance. Yes, yes.

Something like that. It's a terrific, I miss the days I was watching, what was I watching with my wife? I was watching the John Grisham picture, the Pelican Brief, Alan Pakula's picture. Yes. And I was talking about those paranoia thrillers of the 70s. That was great. They don't make them so much anymore, like the Parallax View and like this one. When I was the receptionist at Zoetrope at Coppola's company, I put in the Rolodex Harry

Call's phone number because that was the character that Gene Hackman played. calls phone number because that was the character that Gene Hackman played. And I dutifully copied it off of the film to make sure it was right. And it was in the Rolodex. And I thought if future people coming to do my job, they can place a call and see if that's super cool. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast. But first, a word from our sponsor. Baseball is finally back.

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Conditions apply. Visit td.com slash tdmortgagedirect. I asked you this on the phone, but as somebody who knew him, Michael, why do you think, what is the psychology of the man in terms of how down on the Godfather films he's always been? One gets the sense that he considered himself to be slumming. I think, you know, Francis is an artist. He really is.

And I think he, he felt that that was commercial filmmaking that I, I, I mean, I think he's probably very proud of Godfather too. But, and then I think he, he,

he would say things like, and I never talked to him about this much cause I wasn't part of those conversations, but he'd say things like, well, if nothing else, I'll always be remembered as the director of The Godfather. And I kind of got the sense he didn't love that, you know, because he felt that his other work was being disregarded. But, I mean, you could make the argument that Patton is a commercial film. And, I mean, I only know he didn't direct that one. Yeah.

I suppose the conversation is more of an art film and Apocalypse Now is more of an art film and apocalypse now is more of an art film yeah i mean i i think you can say that finnian's rainbow is is uh is a commercial film or is intended to be a commercial film but you know he was doing some work to get to the point where he could make the things that he really wanted to make oh and something popped into my head totally out of uh because i always love um slogans on movie posters oh taglines yeah and and for the conversation it was harry call is the best in the business three people are dead because of him that's's great. That's a good one. Did you, you, you met Michael Jackson one day at Zoetrope? I did.

How did you know that? I know a lot of stuff. Oh my God. How, so, uh, it's a very brief story. Great job, Michael. Yeah, I was, I was shooting something on the lot, uh, the, you know, the old Selznick lot, Culver Studios. on the lot, the, you know, the old Selznick lot, Culver Studios. And I was, I was there doing something. And if, and somebody I was with said, Hey, do you see that the Airstream trailers is

over there? Apparently Coppola's here. He's shooting Captain EO. And I was part of the team that put that Airstream trailer together. And sure enough, I walked over there. It was, I saw, this is hilarious. And I came and I knocked on the door and Francis came to the door. I said, hi, what are you doing here? And he invited me into the into the Airstream. And when I was there, Michael Jackson came by and he came by with a little blonde boy next to him. And I said, hi, nice to meet you.

He said, hi, nice to meet you. And I said, hi, nice to meet you. He said, hi, nice to meet you. And he introduced me to the kid. And it was very, you know, perfectly friendly and nice. And then I, you know, hung out for a bit and left. And then for months, all I could say is I met Michael Jackson. I met Michael Jackson. I didn't, you know, I didn't compute anything about the boy that was with him or anything.

No chimp? He never chimp with him? There was no chimp to be had. Disappointing. Was it Bubbles was the chimp? Bubbles. Yeah. Well, you know, James Coburn had a chimp. Oh, do. Do tell us.

He did? Yeah, and he, you know, I can't remember how he talked about it one day, how he had this chimp. And I, you know, I could barely keep a straight face. But, you know, it was something that I think was very dear to him. And I remember hearing these stories. And I think my wife was fascinated by the idea that that Coburn had a chimp as a pet.

But I don't think he had the chimp anymore. And he didn't travel with the chimp. He had a very lovely wife and she she came to visit. Now, chimps are horrible animals. Yeah, you better hide your scrotum from. Yeah, yeah. They go at it instinctively. Yeah, yeah, they go at it instinctively. They'll rip people's sticks and balls apart. Yes. And take their faces off. They're horrible fucking animals.

They're like film executives. The other thing I found interesting about your zoetrope days was you told me that Michael Powell, the legendary director Michael Powell, was hanging around on the lot. The director of The shoes and the wonderful stairway to heaven and black black narcissus and so many other classics it was amazing he was artist in residence at zoetrope and he wandered around the lot i remember he frequently wore a powder blue suit of like a baby blue suit. Wow. And he was a dapper old Englishman and a complete sweetheart.

And he was there to answer questions that anybody who worked on the lot had to ask him. So you'd come up and go, tell me how you did that shot. You know, I saw. Well, actually, we screened Peeping Tom. Oh, that's another good one. Yeah. And we screened it actually at Coppola's house for Michael Powell and a bunch of other people. And I was told to run the projector.

And I'd never run a projector before. I'd been taught how to thread them. But, you know, they're not that easy to run, a 35 millimeter film projector. And I fucked up every I I messed up every single, uh, real change. And finally, Michael Powell came back to this, to the projection room and said, is there anything I can help you with dear boy? You know, I was, I was humiliated, but, uh,

and so Powell was there. John Luke Godd Powell was there. John Luke Goddard was there. He had an office there. Vin Vendors was there doing Hammett. It was a lot of interesting characters. Wow. What did you tell me about Powell? If you wanted to ask him a question, you had to you had to write it down or you had to you had to.

I don't remember that exact. I remember that Francis said Michael Powell francis said michael powell is here as artists in residence you know abuse him you know use him you go ask him anything i don't think i don't think you had to write it down but maybe that's true maybe somebody else mentioned that i well how'd you make go ahead, Gil. Tell us about the making of Ed Wood. So I can tell you about the inception of Ed Wood more than I can tell you about the making of it, although I was, I was around. So here, here's what happened. In film school, I was with Scott Alexander and Larry Karaszewski. Thank you. Big fan of Larry Karuski. Very big fan.

Anyway, we were in film school together, and we used to watch Ed Wood movies. And it was part of the culture. And after I had made Hudson Hawk, and after Scott and Larry had Problem Child made, we were all sort of figuring out how we were going to resurrect our careers in hollywood i i still haven't figured it out no well he got your back gil yeah so they called me and they said we have an idea for a movie that we think you're going to love. And they said, we've read this book, Nightmare of Ecstasy. It's about Edward and his entourage. And we think it would make a fabulous film.

And I said, wow, that's a great idea. I didn't know the book. I read it. But I said, this is even better because you guys and myself are three of the only people who know what it's like to wake up on a Friday morning and read in every single paper that we made the worst movie of all time, because that's how Hudson Hawk was received. And that's how, um, problem child was received to a certain degree, except for Gilbert's performance. Oh yeah. And it classed by itself. Yeah. And, and so we chuckled about that and, uh, and we

talked it through and basically, uh, you uh you know i said this is a great idea and and um they said we want to take it to scott rudin because scott rudin had run fox when they sold their first film which was called home records um we never got made as far as i know um and so they had a relationship with rudin and i said no uh rudin is not the guy for this movie he's a great producer he I know you have the relationship. This is something that Tim Burton would really get. And Denise Denovi, who was Tim's producer at the time, had produced Heathers and Meet the Applegates, my first two films.

She was a close friend. And I knew Tim. And I said, I think this is something we should take to them. So I called Denise and I said, my friend Scott and Larry have this idea for a movie based on Ed Wood. It's based on this book. It would make a terrific film. I want to direct it. I think Tim would really get it. You guys should produce it. And she and Denise was like, OK, well, whatever. And we we sent an outline or a proposal to Denise who showed it to Tim. And Denise called me back right away and

said, I've got good news and bad news. I said, what is it? She said, the good news is Tim loves this. Great. The bad news is he really wants to direct it. And I said, well, you know, that's great. I'm glad Tim wants to direct it, but this is for me to direct. And at that time, Tim was doing really well. And I was the guy who made Hudson Hawk. So it was, although I think, yeah, that was that, that was my last movie. So I was in Hollywood director jail and all that. Anyway, long story short, I talked to Tim, he was so invested in making this film just based on Scott and Larry's outline that he said, I will make this movie. And I said, well, you don't know Scott and Larry. So please, I'll turn this over to you as director if you don't make it as your next film, then you have to let me direct it and you can produce it. And his next film was supposed to be Mary Riley. The the. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Julia Roberts.

Julia Roberts that I think Stephen Frears did. I think so. And he was on board to make that. And he said to me and Tim was very good to his word on this. He said, you don't understand. I want to make this movie so badly. I will absolutely make it as my next. So I said, OK. And, you know, they they gave me an executive producer credit. And Scott and Larry wrote their first draft. And, you know, I read it and gave notes and they took the first draft to Tim. And he not only did he not fire them it started a long relationship oh sure uh but he also shot what I think was very close to what was their first um and you know everybody kept they kept me involved which was fun but I didn't direct the movie and I love the film I love I'm very happy to have my name we love it too how how often were on set? I was only on set two or three times. I think I went off to make Airheads at the same time and I wasn't all that available. And I also felt a little awkward. I didn't want to go on the set and, you know, watch somebody else make the movie

that I hoped I would be directing. But you were a good friend. It was admirable of you to protect them that way. I felt like, you know, I couldn't say to Scott and Larry, oh, I'm not going to let Tim direct this. Because for them, it was, you know, it was a big deal. Tim Burton was, he could have chosen to direct the phone book, as they say, and he wanted to do this. So I was never going to get in the way of that. What would Michael Lehman's Ed Wood have been like? Well, I got to say, honestly, it would not have been as good as Tim's. And I say this because I probably wouldn't wouldn't have been able to make it in black and white. Tim fought so hard to make that in black and white and to have it look like an Ed Wood

movie that the movie went from Columbia Pictures to Disney. I don't know if you know this story, but it was set up at Sony and Peter Guber wouldn't make it in black and white. At least that's the story I was hearing at the time. And he basically said, no, I'm not going to make a $25 million black and white film about some weirdo, trans, dollar black and white film about some weirdo trans cross-dressing uh crazy director from the 50s and disney in their in their foresight came to tim and said we really want to be in business with you we envision tim burton theme parks we think you would fit into the disney world perfectly now he'd gone to cal artsts, which is a Disney school. Sure. And made Frank and Weenie there.

And so he had some Disney connection. And basically, he said, you want to work with me, then you have to make Ed Wood the way I want. And they just said, make the movie. So there's no way I could have done that. If I'd made the movie, it would have been a million dollars and it would have looked like it really looked like an Edward movie, but probably in color. But did you tell me on the phone about the Lugosi part that you were the first person to. Yes, I proudly am the first person to have read the Lugosi part out loud at a script at a script reading.

Yeah. Scott and Larry sent me the script and I called them and I said, I want to just read some of these lines back. Let's shoot this fucker. You know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. And I was kidding around. But they I remember seeing Martin Landau's screen test or his audition. I guess it was audition tape. And it was mind blowing that he just came in and did it. So I'm not going to do it as well as he did. Now, you probably don't remember all the lines to it, but the speech about, you know, alone, hunted. Can you do some of that for us, please?

No, I think you have to do that because I cannot. Gil, give him a little bit of your bailiff. Please do it. No home. I have no home. Haunted. Despised. Very good.

Larry Karuski will be proud. Yeah. How did you get from, and I know this is a long journey, but maybe you can shorten it up for us, Michael. The journey from working for Coppola, you'd wanted to be a filmmaker, finally to Heathers, to getting to make your first feature. Yeah. You know, when I worked for Coppola, I took the job and applied to USC and UCLA film school. I didn't really know any other way to do it. You know, I was a kid going to regular college and didn't have it like that. And while I was waiting to hear from the film schools, I got hired by Francis to answer the

phones. And I stayed there for three years. Meanwhile, UCLA sent me an acceptance and I deferred it and said, I'm not going to leave a job working on real movies to go to film school. And USC lost my application and they never followed up. Oh, my God. And finally, I called them and I said, how come you guys never responded to my application? And they said, oh, I'd studied philosophy in Germany and that and I and I gave them a transcript in German. philosophy in Germany and that, and I, and I gave him a transcript in German and they said, well, we, we didn't process the application because you need to translate the German. Uh, you need to translate the German transcript. And I said, you guys are a university, go to the fucking German department and have them translate it. They said, nope, you have to translate it. I said,

how do you know I'm going to translate it accurately? They said, doesn't matter. So I translated it and sent it in and still never heard anything. And after three years at Zoetrope, when Francis had made one from the heart, was off doing Outsiders and Rumblefish, and it looked like he was going to go bankrupt or out of business. And I'd done all sorts of cool stuff and was kind of running out of steam there. I got a letter from USC saying, we found your application. Are you interested in going? It was three years later. Wow. And I, so I sent him a letter saying, well, in the time from when I applied to now, I worked on all these big feature films, but I never made a movie. So, you know, I actually

remember I talked to Francis. I said, is it crazy for me to want to go to film school? And he said, which was very true. He said, it's not so much what you'll learn about filmmaking, but it's the chance to make the films and get access to the equipment and the other people that you'll be working with. And evidence, Scott and Larry, who, you know, so I basically left Zoetrope and said, I'll go back to school. And I went back there and made my, um, Beaver Gets a Boner. Beaver Gets a Boner. Yeah. Which I asked you the look on Gilbert's face. Now at some point in this relationship, Michael, I'm going to insist that I get my hands on a copy of Beaver Gets a Boner.

Is Scott in it? Scott Alexander's in it? Yeah, Scott's in it. So, you know, I would not have made that movie. I would not have directed that movie without Larry. How do we pronounce his name now? Rudy Tootie. Without Larry Karaszewski's help, because Larry knew Redbeard Simmons, who wrote the script, who went on to write the script with me for Beat the Applegates.

And Larry said, Redbeard has written this amazing script, and you should look at it because maybe you can get it made. The boring stuff is about how hard it is to get a movie made at USC where you have to get faculty approval. But I did manage to get it through. It's called The Beaver Gets a Boner. And it's – Gilbert's interested. It was a very funny script. It was a high school movie about a kid whose mother flushes the drugs he's dealing down the toilet.

And he has to get the money back to pay his supplier, who the supplier was played by Tony Cox, who was the little person. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So Tony Cox plays this kid's drug supplier. And Tony says, I'm going to I'm going to cut your balls off. You know, going back to that old trope, I'm going to cut your balls off if you don't pay me. So the kid applies for a scholarship at his high school and goes straight. And it's about him

going straight, trying to, trying to please everybody to get the scholarship. And I'll, I'll throw a spoiler in because it's not worth watching the whole movie, but he gets the scholarship and finds out that they don't actually give him the money. They send it straight to the college. And he goes on a rampage. And part of the rampage is to take a chainsaw and put it between the legs of the beaver, which is the school mascot, from behind. So the beaver getting a boner is from the chainsaw coming through his legs from behind. Got it.

Okay, so it has nothing to do with Jerry Mathers. Nothing whatsoever. But this was pivotal for you, making this film. It was, first of all, because the script was really funny. And we, you know, it wasn't like a USC student film. USC student films typically at that time were sweet little stories about somebody trying to find a way to get away from their Midwestern home and go to the big city and do something important. And there were a lot of coming of age movies and nobody made comedies

there. And if they made comedies there, they were they had to be very highbrow. So this was like an underground comic or a John Waters movie or something like that, which is what I wanted to do. And it was pivotal because the movie was funny enough that it got me an agent and got me. How did you get how did you and Dan meet and how did Heather's come to be? So Dan was friends with Larry Karaszewski in way back in high school. And Dan did not go to USC film school, but he was around and I met him through Larry and Scott and these guys and we hung out. I didn't know him very well. Larry called me one day and said, can, I had an agent by the name of Bobby Thompson who was really terrific, had great taste at William Morris.

And Larry called me and said, Dan wrote this amazing script. We took it to our agent and she didn't get it. Can you take it to Bobby Thompson? And I read Heather's phenomenal and I took it to Bobby and she she took him on as a client and and helped get the movie made. And when Stanley Kubrick passed, I jumped in and said, I can direct this where I had a deal. Because because Dan's dream was to have Stanley Kubrick make it. Yes, it's still his dream. Right.

And that film, I heard, barely got made. Yes, barely got made because if people now they always say, oh, you know, you couldn't get a movie like that made nowadays. Well, you couldn't really get a movie like that made in those days either. It was, there was one guy, a guy named Steve White, who was head of production at New World Pictures, who had the ability to greenlight movies under a certain budget. And he saw The Beaver Gets a Boner and he made a deal with me and he read Heathers and he loved the script and he just said i'll make this film and um he he made us change a few things but basically he he stuck pretty close to what dan's script was and and we made it there was really nobody else who was willing to make

that movie roger corman's old company roger corman's old company, but at that time, Corman had sold it. And there were three guys, Bob Ramey and Cuppin and Sloan, these three guys who had put the company together and really built it on selling movies to, making movies for the home video market, which was blowing up. You could see the reluctance even then, And this, of course, predates school shootings and bombings and things of that nature. But you could see, I mean, this is risky material. As you said, even then. Yes, even then. A comedy about teen suicide in Daniel's original script with a climax that involves blowing up the school.

Exactly. And a prom in heaven. Bless his heart. Yes, that's what Steve White said. He said, I'm not going to make this movie if they blow up the school and have the prom in heaven. He said, you cannot have your lead character, the Winona Ryder character, end up blowing up the school, basically killing herself and everybody else. He said, all it takes is one copycat and you're going to feel very bad about it. And I said, I don't know.

You know, these things happen. I think he was smart. Yes. Yeah. I think he was smart, too. Why wouldn't Doris? Why couldn't you use the Doris Day version of Que Sera Sera for the opening credits? You know that Doris Day had like a jar at the bandstand that if anybody used a swear word, they had to put a quarter in there.

I know the answer, but I'm going to ask you the question anyway. I mean, I think, you know, we tried to license it and we couldn't. And then I got Sid Straw to sing one version of it for the main titles. And then Larry actually pointed out that Sly Stone, who was a favorite of mine, I'd seen him perform when I was a kid in the 60s. Sly Stone did this terrific, bizarre recording of the song. And in a lot of ways, it's better than Doris. I was telling Gilbert on the phone, too, there were actors who turned it down because was it Heather Graham? Was it Jennifer Connelly, whose parents wouldn't let them be in the picture?

Yes. Jennifer Connelly was Dan Waters' kind of ideal for the role of Veronica. And I love Jennifer Connelly. So I said, well, shit, let's just go to her. And she was 17 and her parents controlled her career. And we got a negative response. I don't know if she ever read it. I'd never talked to her about it. And then I tried to cast Heather Graham as the Heather who goes through the coffee table as Heather Chandler. And Heather Graham gave it, just knocked it out of the park in an audition.

She was amazing. And then we were told, well, too bad, her parents won't let her do the film. And I said, I'm not going to take no for an answer on this. And apparently her father was an FBI agent, and her mother was a very intelligent but far right-wing Orange County school teacher. And I got in a long, maybe two-hour phone conversation with the mother trying to convince her that this movie was really not what she thought it was. But pretty much it was exactly what she thought it was. I got nowhere.

Why does Heather, why does the first Heather, you just said her last name. Chandler. Why does Heather Chandler, does she say the words corn nuts as she's dying? Yes. So in a scene preceding that, from essentially the night before, she and Winona's character stop off at a, what was scripted as a 7-Eleven, but it is a convenience store. And when Winona goes into the convenience store, Heather yells out to her, corn nuts, like get me some corn nuts. And that is, those are her last words right before she dies.

That was one of my favorite moments. Yeah, here's a film people are still talking about 30 years later. Yes, that and Hudson Hawk. Yeah, but obviously for different reasons. Last year was the 30th anniversary of Heathers, and you gave a lot of interviews. It must be pleasing that this film means so much to people. Has inspired a musical, a TV series. Yeah.

All these years later. Your first movie, you were in your 20s, for God a musical, a TV series. Yeah. All these years later, your first movie, you're in your 20s, for God's sake. That's right. And also, it was really, really, really fun to make. You know, as you guys know, it's not always fun to make a movie there. It's a perilous path. There's lots of stuff that that's filled with tension and difficulty and on a production level, on a personality level, blah, blah, blah, just down the line. And that movie was blessed, I guess, because as dark as it was and as committed as we were to making that really dark film,

we managed to do it and we all had a good time doing it. So, yeah. It's funny because Alan Arkin was on the show recently, and he said, I remember him saying that, this was years ago, he said when he watches movies, he still watches them and thinks, oh, that looks like it would be fun to do. And he says it never is when you're doing it. It's true.

You know, I actually try very hard to make the set be a fun place and certainly a safe place, you know, a place where people can do their work and enjoy it. But there were many years, I think after Hudson Hawk, there were many years where I had trouble getting to that happy place. Well, Meet the Applegates looks like it was fun to make. It was fun to make. The thing about Meet the Applegates was this was something that Redbeard and I pitched

to New World. And we'd actually pitched the idea to them before Heathers was even set up. And it's about a family of giant insects. And it's pretty it's pretty crazy. We had a great time writing. It's a crazy movie. It's a crazy movie. And we didn't have much money to work with. And and I didn't think the script was ready. But the the Writers Guild was going on strike. And New World was not a signatory. They were not a signatory to the Writers Guild. And when the writers were going on strike, I, as the co-writer of the film, along with Redbeard, said, we're not going to write on this. You guys are going to have to wait. And they said, are you kidding? We're not part of the guild.

Write the script. And I, being a kind of a stubborn young guy, said, no, I'm going to wait until the strike is over. And as a consequence, we never really fixed all the problems. I don't know if the problems of that script could have ever been fixed because it was way out there. But I felt like making the movie was a ton of fun, but we were struggling all the time. Like, how do you make a movie about a family of giant chameleonic insects from the rainforest who come to pose as a typical American family in order to blow up a nuclear power plant and make the world safe for bugs? How do you make that work anyway?

It's, you know. I love the balls that you had at that point in your life. You're just making these crazy things you want to make. Well, when we came up with that one, we never thought it would get made. And then we would make jokes. We'd say it's going to be like the Saturday Night Live sketch with the bees and the killer bees. But we made the script as funny as we could. I love the idea.

Redbeard is a very, very funny writer. We had a great time putting it together. But we still never thought it would get made. And it was only because Heather's, which was made first, Heather's turned out pretty well in the shooting. And New World said to me, we're going to make this. So we made it. I was telling Gilbert, it's not only a movie about giant bugs from the Amazon that assume human form, but Dabney Coleman is a giant bug in drag.

Yes. In human form. Dabney Coleman is what they now call gender fluid. Right. We were way ahead of that game. We were way ahead name was aunt b and b you know aunt and a b it was a bad pun very good and and uh and the thing is is that nobody understood at the time they said well is aunt b male or female i said aunt b is a bug what does it matter? You're a giant bug. What does it matter what sex you are? And so, and Dabney was really fun to work with. Oh, was he? And a very, very talented guy. Oh, yeah.

Gilbert worked with him. Gilbert, you worked with Dabney Coleman on Hot to Trot? Yes. Yes. Yes. Hot to Trot was another. It was another Hudson Hawk. Yeah, that was with Bob Goldthwait, Dabney Coleman.

That was a bad movie. I think Buck Henry turns up in that one. Yes. In fact, I ran into Buck Henry years later, and I said, we were in the same movie, and he said, H in the same movie and he said htt oh he wouldn't he won't say the words that's a bad sign you know you heard in the intro michael that begley was here the nicest man in show business by the way he is absolutely he's nicer

than the nicest man in show business i thought henry winkler was the nicest man in show business. I thought Henry Winkler was the nicest man in show business, but Ed is giving him a run for his money. A sweet guy. Of course, I'm watching this thing, and he's running naked through a power plant. And I'm thinking, this guy commits. Yes, he had quite a fun time. We were working in a big power plant in Appleton, Wisconsin. And I remember saying to ed you know are you comfortable with this yeah i'll do that he was wearing a sock you know to cover

yeah cover his uh uh his privates and he yeah dashed through the place well he's naked in the in amazon women on the moon where they do the takeoff on on the invisible man yeah he's naked in that whole thing yeah uh you know talk about black comedies i mean that's a black comedy heathers is a black comedy by the way uh heathers the jeffersons is a black comedy no that's different though by the way pretty poison and heathers would make a good double bill you You know that picture? Yes, they would. Anthony Perkins, Tuesday Well. I think they've probably been on a double bill somewhere sometime in the history of... You're attracted to this as a genre, as black comedies, which we've talked about on the show. Gilbert just brought up Alan Arkin, who made a good one in Little Murders.

Yeah. Are they hard to make because they're hard to sell overseas because the humor is so American? Are they hard to make because executives just don't get the joke? We just lost Carl Reiner, who made a wonderful one. And where's Papa? Yes. Yeah. Wow.

They're hard to make. Yes. Primarily, they don't sell well overseas. American comedies generally don't sell as well overseas as we would expect because quite often the people that we think are funny in the States don't sell as well overseas as we would expect, because quite often the people that we think are funny in the States don't really translate. This is why more physical comedians, people whose humor is physical, tend to export pretty well. If it's verbal, then it doesn't necessarily translate well. But dark humor, even though pretty much every other certainly every other European culture has great tradition of dark humor. What we do here is dark humor does not necessarily translate

well. And it's also true. It just doesn't even work generally for a commercial American audience. So if you go to a studio and you say, I want to make a dark comedy, they basically say, thank you very much, but we're not interested. Very hard to get them interested. And, you know, Dan wrote a great script that, that was, that drew their attention, but still no major studio was a film. Yeah. Yeah. You, you, you do see it on television now. You see it in a series like Fargo. Yes. And some of the series you've directed dark comedy californication right that's why i in a way that's that that motivated a lot of my

move to television is because i was finding better dark comedy in the sphere of at that time you know cable television high quality television whatever That's where dark comedies could be made. And it's it's still true. But although it's hard to get those made in television as well. What one thing we talked about on this show a lot, and that's like movie theaters as an experience are basically dead. Yeah. For the moment, at least, you know, it's but I think if you said that to a young viewer, they'd say, no, I watched the Avengers Ultron 50,000 times. You know, people still go up until covid. People were still going to theaters, but only for spectacle. They weren't going for humor, which I think is too bad because you remember how much fun it was to sit in a theater and have everybody laughing.

That does not happen the way it used to. Yeah. Well, your introduction of the Marx Brothers was seeing them in a movie theater. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And everybody was laughing. And it's, you know, laughter is infectious.

You really want to be in a group. And it's like there were movies where the entire audience is laughing or a horror film where everyone screams. Right. Or like, you know, a Charles Bronson Clint Eastwood movie. Someone gets shot and everyone's cheering. Yes. That, I wonder, I mean, is that dying? Is that going to come back when people can go to theaters again? I think economically it's hard to justify theatrical releases if you're not on the level of those huge franchise movies. theaters all the time it's pre it's not it's pre uh pre-pandemic yeah problem i don't know about san francisco i don't know about your home your your home uh you're part of the country but here

when we lost the ziegfeld which was our show place yeah you know and every movie that you know you think about the movies that you were favorites of yours and you go that could never come out in the theater now it's not worth it for them. Right. Something like Touch of Evil or Asphalt Jungle, the movies that Michael's very fond of. You could not get those. I mean, I guess if you had whoever the, you know,

the one major star that could do it, it might get released, but it probably wouldn't be a huge hit. You know, right. I mean, what would you do today? Who would be the Charlton Heston character in Touch of Evil? That's a good question. Oh, yeah. That could never happen.

Unless Tom Hanks really wanted to make it. Yes. Or George Clooney. George Clooney is a Mexican border cop. Well, no more ridiculous than Charlton Heston is a Mexican border cop. Well, it's tough to get more ridiculous than that. Well, I know you're a Hal Ashby fan, too. And, you know, those Ashby films are small films.

Gilbert's very fond of the last detail. Yes. We just had Carol Kane here talking about it. But being there or The Landlord or Shampoo, they're certainly not tentpole pictures. Are they even movies that could make it in theaters? I don't know. You know, um, we're being there recently. I, I talked to someone who was in their thirties and they just seen shampoo and, and they said, it's amazing. I said, yeah. I said, does it hold up? And they said, it does. And this, this was a young writer. And he said, uh, he said, yeah, I was looking at it to see if it could be remade. And I said, yeah. I said, does it hold up? And they said it does. And this this was a young writer. And he said he said, yeah, I was looking at it to see if it could be remade. And I said, what do you think?

He said, no, absolutely not. You couldn't remake that now. But at least he felt. But he said that the movie held up. No, Hal Ashby made some amazing films. Yeah. And when you think about the great actors of the 70s, you know, like Hoffman, Pacino, De Niro, Gene Hackman, Nicholson. Their entire careers couldn't happen nowadays, the type of movies they made. Right. It's hard to see where that would fit. I mean, you know, you tell me who's the 25 yearyear-old contemporary Gene Hackman. He doesn't exist. No.

I mean, if something like The Conversation or Harold and Maude or Being There or The Last Detail were written today, I would imagine it would have to be some kind of cable original, some kind of Netflix project. But that happened to Broadway, too. I mean, the tentpole equivalent. You know, little plays got shut out of Broadway a long time ago. Right. For lavish productions. And now the same things happen to cinema. The thing that I like to do to stay positive about it all is at least recognize that there are so many more venues to watch things.

That's true. recognize that there are so many more venues to watch things. That's true. And as a consequence, so many more venues to make things for that. Yes, we lose the big theaters. We lose that experience. That may never come back. But it's also true that, you know, you can take an iPhone and make a movie and put it up on YouTube.

It's not easy. It's not easy to do a good one. But we couldn't do that when I started making movies. That was just out of the question. What was your theater? We talked about this on the phone, the place where as a kid, you saw all these wonderful pictures

where you got your film education. I saw the Pacific Film Archive in Berkeley was huge. You know, a guy named Tom Luddy was running it back then. He's still around. He's a producer. And before him, Sheldon Renan. And they would program all this incredible stuff. American movies from the past that were really obscure, they'd do a noir series, and they'd

pull out all the most obscure films, and they'd get great prints. And they would have somebody connected to the movie come and talk. And the way the theater was set up, you could not have a head in front of you. That was the best thing about it. It was a very sloped rows of seats. So when you went, you knew you were going to see the movie and not look at the back. Like the Thalia here in New York, Gilbert, remember? Oh, yeah. There were art houses here. We talked about itork ilbert remember oh yeah there were art houses here we talked about it when we talked michael there were art houses here there was the biograph there was

the regency there was the saint mark cinema there was the street playhouse i remember i used to like to see the marx brothers in those theaters sure yeah because i wanted to see it on a big screen and it was always fun when there was a movie you heard about from years ago and you could now watch it in the big screen was i was really into those art house films we have the film forum is still here but it's almost nothing it's it's it's been reduced to one or two places i mean they have the uh i guess there's the alamo draft house in brooklyn yes that's that's pretty good it's pretty good they trot out meet the apple gates recently was one or two places. I mean, they have the, I guess there's the Alamo draft house in Brooklyn. Yes. The, that's,

that's pretty good. It's pretty good. They, they tried out meet the Apple gates recently. Was it airheads? They know meet the Apple gates. I went and I, you know,

I talked to, it must've been six or seven people in the audience that came to watch. No, I had a great time. It was, it was fun to, those guys are very nice and, and they, very nice, and they really support oddball movies.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Gilbert, here's a wild card question from Michael that you're going to like. I found this in my notes about Michael. You have a memory, a fond memory of seeing the three stooges around the world in a daze. You remember that one? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's when the period of Curly Joe Dorita.

Is that a Dorita one? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I watched Three Stooges on television as a kid like crazy all the time. They were my favorites, right? Yeah. But I don't, you know, I was too, I guess it was past the time when their, when their

movies would be on the big screen, you know? So I didn't even, I remember as a little kid, I loved them like crazy, but I didn't even know that you'd go to a movie theater to see them. Yeah. And Curly, yeah. Curly Joe Dorito was like, all right, he's fat and he's bald. So good enough. Hilarious. Speaking of theater experiences, and I read this about you too.

You said you, you thought you were too jaded to be scared by a horror movie, but then you saw The Exorcist. Yeah. That was one of the, I was a senior in high school, and I'm a Jewish kid, I didn't know anything about exorcisms, and my friend said, this movie, The Exorcist is opening, we should go see it. And I remember thinking, yeah, I've read about that, that's some sort of horror film, fine, let's go.

I was scared out of my pants, I couldn't believe it. I've never been so scared in a theater. And that is a truly frightening film. Yeah, Gilbert likes that one. Yeah, that was one of those films. Well, I mean, The Godfather 2. It was one of those films where everyone was talking about it. And then when I remember that feeling of finally sitting in the theater and the lights start getting a little darker and you go, oh shit, now I'm going to see it for myself.

Yeah. That whole feeling of theater. Gilbert, what was the first movie you saw in a theater? Do you remember? Oh God, I don't know. Something your parents would have taken you to? Yeah, I mean, I remember seeing an awful Bob Hope movie. I think that was the Bob Hope period when he would wear a hat. What, like I'll take Sweden, that period? Yeah, that period, yeah right this might have been called did it was he in bachelor in paradise yeah yeah i think i think that's one of the earliest i remember wow i think mine was the happiest millionaire with john dave with podcast guest

john davidson oh i remember that f. And Fred McMurray. Yes. A Disney joint. What was yours, Mike? I think my first movie, first time in the theater, was to see Pinocchio, the Disney animated film. Oh, that was good. Because I remember also being horrified

by being inside of a whale. You know, I remember that sequence. But I'm trying to remember what my first live-action film was. You know, I don't sequence, but I'm trying to remember what my first live action film was. You know, I don't know. It would have been, it might have been, I keep thinking there were movies like, remember What a Way to Go? Oh, yeah. Shirley MacLaine?

Yeah, was Shirley MacLaine. Yeah, where all the husbands die? Oh, it's like Dean Martin is in it. Yeah, I think Robert Mitchum. Yeah. I feel like I saw that early on in the theater because it also had a big impression. I remember seeing The Music Man also.

Okay. Which I didn't like that much. Yeah. That soured me for movies for many years. It's a great performance. It's not necessarily a great picture. No. I'm going to send you two episodes of this podcast as they relate to two films that you sent me on your list. Maltese Falcon had danny houston on the show oh and gilbert did gilbert did a little

of his uh i'm gonna make him do it for you now gilbert give him a little joel cairo no it's you who bantled it you're at your stupid attempt to buy it kevin Kevin found out how valuable it was. No wonder we had such an easy time getting it. You imbecile. You bloated fathead. What do you think, Mike? I think that is fantastic. That is great.

Yeah. I'm going to send you the Danny Houston episode. Hey, I like talking to a man who likes to talk. I distrust the clues, math man. So I had a third cousin who was a dead ringer for Sidney Greenstreet. Oh, really? I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding.

He lived in Scarsdale. Not kidding. He he and he was he lived in Scarsdale. He was a very sophisticated, really interesting man who was, if I remember right, his name was Jules. He was my uncle Jules. He was from from Alexandria, Egypt. And he was half Jewish, quarter Egyptian, quarter Italian. And somehow after the war, he was married to my father's cousin who was from Berlin. And she went to Egypt during the war and met this man. And he told all these stories and he would say, hey, tell me I look like him. I'd go, yeah, you look exactly like him. And he was a gourmet chef. Great, great guy. But he looked to a T. Perfect. You know, when you watch Maltese Falcon, I always thought if you didn't know any of the people in the cast and said, just show me one movie that is the definitive role for each one.

Oh, yeah. It would have to be Maltese Falcon. Yeah. It's a phenomenal movie and you know if you read the novel the movie is word for word what's the not what's in the novel and that never happened no and how come i mean it's funny now if you were to say i'm gonna remake the maltese falcon it would be sacrilege. But that was like, I think, the third version. Is that true? Yeah.

I think that was, was there a silent version? There was one with Ricardo Cortez. Right, right. And I think Dwight Frye and the Peter Lorre part. And then there was a Bette Davis one called Satanan was a woman i think and and it's like yeah the third one they i mean the ricardo cortez one is practically also word for word and yet it doesn't work like the bogart one well that's a superb cast. And it's also, you know, really well directed. John Huston just got

the tone of every single character just right. It's a wonderful movie. It's a movie that just makes me happy to sit and watch. The other episode I'm going to send you relates to your choices because we had Peter Fonda on the show. We asked him his favorite performance of his dad's and he said, My Darling Clementine.

And then when he said it, he got very choked up. It's a perfect film. It is a perfect. You know, I had heard about I'd seen John Ford movies as a kid on TV and I knew the titles and I knew the movies, but I'd never really given him a whole lot of thought. And then when I was a little older and people always talked about The Searchers and they talked about John Ford, I caught Darling Clementine, I think, maybe at the Pacific Film Archive. I saw it in a theater. And I was a teenager.

And I was blown away. Me too. I just think it's an amazing film. I think it's his best film. And maybe a lot of Ford scholars don't agree. And you're also fond of a Gilbert favorite, and that's the original Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Yes.

How can you not love that? We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing, colossal podcast after this. Get to know yourself and your roots better in 2024 with Ancestry DNA. Want to know where your family comes from in Northern France? Maybe you'd like to see how your genes influence certain traits like diet, fitness, and allergies. There's so much of you and your heritage to discover. Visit Ancestry.ca and get started with an Ancestry DNA kit today. starting small that's trading on kraken pick from over 190 assets and start with the 10 bucks in your pocket easy go to kraken.com and see what crypto can be not investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss see kraken.com slash legal slash ca-pru-disclaimer for info on kraken's

undertaking to register in canada now that the problem i have with that film, and it's funny, I notice, I'll remember TV shows and movies where in my mind, in my memory, I've edited them. And I think everyone edits Invasion of the Body Snatchers with the ending being him running in traffic going, no, no, stop, watch out, they'll take over your body. And it doesn't end with that. It ends with like some boring bullshit, like the cops go, okay, we'll get on this right away. You're right, I remember, I've edited the ending just like you did. Yeah, because that's a much stronger ending.

Yeah. I like Phil Kaufman's remake, too. Remake's good. Yeah. Yeah. Donald Sutherland, Leonard Nimoy. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Brooke Adams. A couple of quick questions from listeners before we let you get out of our clutches, Michael. TKD Sand loves the show that

you directed, Blunt Talk. Yes. Quite underrated. What was it like to work with that cast, specifically the great Patrick Stewart? Yeah, that show was a real pleasure to do. You know, Jonathan Ames, who'd done the show Bored to Death and was a friend of mine, names who'd done the show Bored to Death and was a friend of mine, conceived the show and he put it together around Patrick Stewart. And Patrick is a lovely person and obviously he's an incredible actor. And what I found was that he was agreeable. He was fully professional and great to work with, but he also was having fun doing comedy because I got the sense that he just hadn't done that much comedy. And so he, you know, he was a pleasure on set because I think he really enjoyed the process. Although is, as you guys know,

when you make comedy, it's can be very painful and very difficult, especially when you're saying, it's funny, but I think we can do something a little better. Let's try something different. And, um, you know, he lost patience every once in a while, but he was really superb. And the cast in general, you know, Jackie Weaver. Oh, it's amazing. Um, Karen Sony, who, the Indian actor who I'd worked with before, he's terrific. Um, Karen Sony, who the Indian actor who I'd worked with before, he's terrific.

Um, Tim, um, uh, Tim Sharp is amazing. Uh, you know, Mary, that, that, that cast was superb. And Jonathan's writing is like nothing else. I'm a huge fan of Bored to Death. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. I loved it.

Yeah. You directed, uh, our friend Dick Cavett in a Bored to Death episode. I did. I did. Where he gets tackled by Jason Schwartzman, saves him from John Hodgman trying to sabotage the great television. How was Dick? Do you have any memories of that? I know it was a decade ago. No, no, no. He was. First of all, like, you know, like you guys or Gilbert, I'm sure you did, I grew up watching Dick Cavett. And so just to meet him was amazing for me. I was all over myself. I can't believe it.

Dick Cavett's going to be here. And Jonathan was really excited to have Dick Cavett on the show. He was great to work with. He was very good natured. He was super sharp. And he did magic tricks for us did you know he's an amateur magician yes indeed we've had him here four times oh so he got up and did magic tricks for the crew was amazing and he's one of those guests we've had him on the podcast

a bunch of times and he's one of those guests where you could put the mic in front of him and then frank and i can go out for lunch and we have yeah i i have to say bored to death is a show that people need to find i know it's a it's a decade old the jim jarmusch episode that you uh that you directed me to is is also hilarious. Yes, I think that and the Dick Cavett one are my two favorites, but I did a bunch of them, and they were always fun to do. Yeah, and he's a very good writer, Jonathan Ames. He's a terrific writer, and he's also just an interesting person. He's a great guy. He's very complicated, in the good sense of complicated. He's very thoughtful.

And he has a, he has oddly a very gentle sense of humor. You know, his, his sensibility sometimes goes dark, but always with this incredible sympathy for the character he writes about. I'm a, I'm a fan. I promise Gilbert that I would let you tell the story of casting Joe Mantegna in Airheads. By the way, another favorite actor of ours. And you got some opposition because the studio said, well, he's not a comedy actor. But what happened when Kevin Spacey came into audition? So the the the casting for that movie was interesting in general because, you know, Brendan Fraser, fine. He was a bit of a star and that was easy to get through. Adam Sandler had never really done anything outside of, you know, he hadn't done a big movie yet.

So I had to fight for that, although he was on SNL. So the studio was OK with it. I had to fight like crazy to get Steve Buscemi on because he was an indie actor and the studio was like, we don't work with guys like that. We're not making Pulp Fiction here, all this sort of stuff. And then I was trying to find the perfect man to play the DJ. Ian the Shark. Yes. And Kevin Spacey came in and gave a really good audition

and then turned to me and said something to the effect of, you know, you have to cast me in. I'm better than anybody who's going to do this. And this is I was born to play this role. Now, you know, I knew his work a little bit. I thought he was a terrific actor, but he scared me to death. I don't know why. I thought he's his confidence level was so high.

And as an actor to make the choice in an audition to say, basically, you have to cast me because I'm that good and I want this and I could really knock it out of the park. It scared me. But I then I second guessed myself a lot like, oh, my God, you know, I'm turning Kevin Spacey down. He wasn't quite as he wasn't as well known then as he subsequently became. And nobody I didn't know anything about his personality or what he was like to work with, but he scared me in the room. And then we were going through a lot of names and I said, what about Joe Mantegna? Because I, I loved his stuff. You know,

I loved everything I'd seen him in. And, uh, and I went to the studio and I said I found out that Joe was interested. And I went to them and Peter Chernin, who ran Fox, was like, no, you can't cast Joe Mantegna in this role. He's a great actor, but he's not a comedy actor. He wanted me to cast Robert Wool, who is, you know, great actor also. But I had it in my head. It had to be Joe Mantegna. you know, great actor also, but I had it in my head. It had to be Joe Mantegna. And then I, then I sat down and talked to Joe and Joe told me that he had posed, he'd done a print ad for a guitar amplifier in the sixties that I remembered. I remembered seeing the ad in Rolling Stone and cream magazine and all these sort of old, uh, you know, 60s rock and roll magazines, had this big bush of

dark hair and a mustache and was, I can't remember that the brand name for the amplifier was not a well-known one. And I said, that was you? And he goes, that was me. And I said, well, I got to cast you. So I was, I was intent on getting him in the movie and I managed to. That's one of the great comedy casts assembled, by the way. I mean, Sandler and, well, Montaigne is funny, but Chris Farley, Michael Richards, Harold Ramis turns up. Buscemi's funny as hell. Yeah, it was, that was a fun movie to make. And I'll tell you when I, Harold was a friend.

And Harold likes, liked to act. He was always, you know, Harold was a brilliant writer and a great director, but he loved to act. And we we had this role of a record executive or actually an undercover cop pretending to be a record executive. And I went to him and I said,

will you do this? And, you know, he read it and he looked at who was in the movie and he said, sure, I'll come in and do that. When Harold stepped on the set, everything stopped, and all those comedians, all those comedy actors, they thought God had walked on the set.

It was really amazing to see, because almost all of them had, I think Caddyshack was a huge movie for every one of them. Sure. Yeah. For a lot of people. For me, too. Yeah, yeah. shack was a huge movie for every one of them sure yeah for a lot of people and for me too yeah yeah but uh it was it was a pleasure to see how harold was revered by everybody and and it was you know you can't how can you dislike a comedy that's loosely based on dog day afternoon yeah

and has a recurring joke about naked photos of B. Arthur. Yes. Yeah. We talked about Larry Sanders on the phone, too, and you directed five episodes, including the roast episode, which featured, among other people, the late, great Carl Reiner.

Yes. That we just lost. I know. Again, you're a young guy, and now you're directing Carl Reiner. I. We just lost. I know. Again, you're a young guy and now you're directing Carl Reiner. I couldn't believe it. You know, the the lineup of comedians that they got to come in and do the roast included Carl Reiner, Kip Adada, Norm Crosby, Norm Crosby, Carrot Top, John Stewart. I think Bill Maher, Bill Maher, Dana Carvey, Dana Carvey, Al Franken.

It was this incredible lineup of intimidating comedians, and they all got up and did their thing. Carl Reiner was a gentleman and a sweetheart. And once again, it was like working with Harold. Everybody else on the set was in awe of Carl Reiner and what he'd done and who he was. And those guys all, you know, you guys, you live in the world of stand-up and know about all this stuff. I had never done, I'd never been around stand-up people that much to see what these guys could do when they just came and riffed.

Yeah, I watched it yesterday. I wondered how much of that riffing you shot and how much of it was scripted. Because I know Gary was having a problem and he kind of left. He was having a fight with Brad Gray by that point and he just disappeared. And what, you had to, did you have to patch that episode together? Yeah, kind of. What happened was that the Sanders show shot in two days. It was a very interesting process. Monday, there would be a table read. Tuesday would be rewrites. Wednesday would be rehearsals. And then we'd shoot the show, which ran about a half hour on Thursday and Friday. And anybody who knows about the television production schedules, that means we were shooting about sometimes as much as 16 pages of material in a day.

Wow. And and they were very they were very, they were highly charged, really fun episodes to do, but there was a lot to get done. We did the roast on the first day and we had all these comedians in. And in fact, some of it was scripted. A lot of it wasn't. Yeah. A lot of those guys were told, just do your bluest material and direct it towards Larry Sanders. So it's a lot of sodomy jokes. Yes, a lot of sodomy jokes. I think Kip Adada came in and did a whole thing about Larry fucking a sheep. Right.

And and and it was really funny. And so we did that. We shot that day was mostly mostly the roast itself on that day, maybe a couple other things. And unbeknownst to me, Gary and Brad Gray were both having a huge fight. You know, and he said, Michael, I'm really sorry, but you're going to have to shoot the rest of the episode without me. And he was in every scene scheduled to shoot the next day. It was all the buildup to the roast. And I said, Gary, that's not possible. He goes, oh, yeah, yeah, it is.

I've talked to the writers. I figured it out. We're going to say that I'm sick and that I have to call in to everybody to have all the conversations. So they're going to be on the phone. Trust me, it'll be fine. I said, Gary, please, can't you just wait one more day? He goes, no, I'm flying to Fiji. And he got on a plane and he flew to Fiji that night or the next morning and he was gone. So we shot the rest

of the episode without it. Very disappointing to me because that script was so funny. Everything in that episode was so funny. And it would have been better if Gary had been there. They did patch it. Still five great episodes you made. Thank you. Yeah, really, really funny. I've got one last question, Gil, from a listener, Max K, and I'm going to bring this full circle back to Hudson Hawk. Does Michael have any Joel Silver stories or incidents that he's willing to share? And if you don't want to tackle that one. Well, you know what I will say, which is just funny.

I mean, there are a million there are a million stories about Joel and we traveled around the world together to make this movie. So I can't pick out the best one. But what I will say is that Joel would constantly tell me whenever I was making a choice that he didn't think was right. He'd say, we're not making a cappuccino movie here. You know, he's I make popcorn movies. I make movies that people want to watch. I'm not going to make these cappuccino movies. And he kept calling me like an art filmmaker and it would drive me out of my mind. Well, there is there is a running cappuccino gag exactly right exactly that that offended him i guess so i guess you know joel joel was pretty good to me on on that movie because he liked what dan and i were doing but you know joel's a complicated guy and he's a powerhouse you can't if to have a conversation with joel that time, at least was to get in a yelling match. I didn't know how to work that way.

Of course. Of course. He'll always have my respect though, for, for making the Hutt sucker proxy. Yes. Yes. And, uh, I don't think I've ever told this to anybody, but the, the Coen brothers called me before they made the Hutt sucker proxy sort of to get a sense of what it was like to work with Joel. Because, you know, they wanted to know what they were getting into. And I had a nice conversation with him where I said, well, you know, Joel kind of works this way and does this and does that. And these are the things that matter to him. And this is how he's going to treat you. And they both they just said, like, OK, that's not a problem for us we were he can't do that to

us he's going to nope nope nope nope because joel sometimes gets involved in things that filmmakers you know that are yeah aggravating to filmmakers um and that they felt that they were they set up the movie in such a way that that wasn't going to happen. And in fact, Joel really left them alone to make the film. I do. We watched Miller's Crossing in Rome, I think, in a screening room while we were making Hudson Hawk. Wow. And Bruce and Joel turned to me and said wow we ought to make it like that and i laughed at them i see you kidding me you're telling me i have to get tight close-ups of the lead actor in every scene you you guys don't understand what it is that the coen brothers are doing when they make

these films where they figure out what they want and they execute it. Oh, they're storyboarding within an inch of their lives. Yes. Yes. I said, we're not doing that here because you guys can't do that. Yeah. Get Barry Sonnenfeld to shoot it in a lot of slow motion. Right. Cats tumbling through the woods.

Are there more scary stories about Joel Silver or Scott Rudin? Because in Barry Sonnenfeld's book, there's a great story about him building a fort out of cushions in Scott Rudin's office to hide from him. You know this story? No. He would throw tantrums, and so Sonnenfeld would hide.

He would actually take the couch apart and make a fort. I'd say, I'm not going to come out until you stop yelling. Joel Silver, around the release of Ford Fairlane, left a screaming message on my answering machine. And I was thinking, what the fuck did I do? And he was screaming at me on the thing. And then I found out years later that he was famous for that. He would pick up the phone and scream into people's machines. Yeah, I heard him threatening people on the phone.

He would pick up the phone and he'd go, I'm going to fucking shoot your kneecaps off. I'm going, this is Hollywood. How can you do this? And he'd scream and yell at the top of his lungs. My movies have made a billion dollars you can't tell me what to do i'm gonna fucking kneecap you and then he'd slam the phone down and turn and say okay so where were we you know it was that kind of thing oh let's get him on the show yeah well joel's still around you know he said joel is a very funny guy. We'll have him on. Gil, what did he do? Did he threaten you? Yeah.

On the machine, he said, tell me this isn't true. Tell me this isn't true, what I heard. And according to him, he didn't hear it. And he heard it from someone else who I think also heard it from someone else saying that I was going around telling people to ban Fort Fairlane. And I thought, when the fuck did I ever do that? I was promoting it left and right. But forget it. He knew. And as a matter of fact, Forget it. He knew. Hilarious. As a matter of fact, they had a little shit Fort Fair Lane jacket as like, you know, the usual shit they give out on movies and TV.

And I was wearing it. And Joel Silver saw me wearing it and said, who gave him that jacket? Because he was still pissed off at me. And this jacket, that must have cost $5 to make. All right, we're going to call Joel Silver, and we're going to have him on, and we're going to have Scott Rudin, too. Oh, that's perfect.

Michael, this was a kick. A lot of fun, so much to cover, so much that we didn't get to, but we touched a little bit on everything. Sometime come back and we'll just talk about movies. Yeah. I'd be happy to talk to you guys anytime about anything. You're very sweet.

Thank you. Yeah, I mean, we didn't even get to Blazing Saddles and some of the other things that were on your list. I sent you the Blazing Saddles episode where we had Andrew Bergman and Norman Steyer. Yes. A lot of good behind-the-scenes stuff and characters that didn't make it into the movie.

Or just come back and we'll talk about Kubrick. Yeah, we can do that too. You've done everything. You've met everybody. I will tell our listeners to find me at the Applegates. It's fun. Your seven episodes of Bored to Death. Anything else you want to promote? You should write a book, by the way.

Oh, yeah. Right. Don't you have a memoir on you? You know, if I thought anybody was interested, I would do it. But no, you know, by the way, I like all sorts of stuff that I've done. So I'm happy. You know, if anybody ever sees anything that I was involved in, I, you know, by the way, I, I like all sorts of stuff that I've done. So I'm happy. You know, if anybody ever sees anything that I was involved in, I'm a happy boy. You've, you've, and you've done some wonderful television and that episode of the comeback that you recommended to me.

I loved, I love to an underrated show. Yes. That show was really something else. I, I thought that, uh, it was the first season of the comeback that Lisa Kudrow, who, you know, I was never, I never watched Friends or anything like that. I went to work with her. She's brilliant. She's really great in that show.

Very dark when she wants. Very, very funny. Well, will you will you audition Gilbert for for Airheads, too? He's worked with Dan. There you go. I'm I'm holding out for Hutch and Hawk 2 well then you'll get the part that I would give to Five-ish Finkel

because that's how old you'll have to be before they make that one maybe we'll do one down the row with you and Dan that would be good because first of all Dan is one of the funniest people you'll ever talk to I invited him on here he was busy yes he's always too busy to do stuff

but the thing is it's great with me and Dan because I don't have to do any work at all Dan just says all the funny stuff I can be a straight man it's perfectly we'll do that down the road we'll have some fun and just talk movies all right this was fun thank you so much so uh i'm gilbert godfrey this has been gilbert godfrey's amazing colossal podcast and we've been talking to the man responsible for

hudson hall only one them. That's so not fair. Michael Lehman. Michael, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you, guys. We'll give your love to Scott and Larry. Please.

And we'll do this again down the road. Okay, good. Sounds good. Thanks. Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Oh, wouldn't you rather be a fish? A fish is an animal that swims in a brook You can't write his name or read a book

To fool the people is his only thought And though he's slippery, he still gets caught The fat sort of life is what you wish You may grow up to be a fish Or would you like to swing or stop? And be more games, home and a job? And be better off than you are? A pig is an animal with dirt on his face. His shoes are a terrible disgrace. He's got no manners when he eats his food. He's fat and lazy and extremely rude.

But if you don't care a feather or a fig, you may grow up to be a pig. And all the monkeys are in a zoo. Every day you see quite a few. So you see, it's all under you. You could be better than you are. You could be swinging on a star. You could be swinging on a star.

You could be swinging on a star You could be swinging on a star Tommy, yes Eddie You could be swinging on a star You could be swinging on a star You could be swinging on a star, my man Hey, don't I know it? You could be swinging on a star You could be swinging on a star Let's take it home

You could be swinging on a star