Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Mini #156: A (Short) History of National Lampoon with "Mr. Mike" author Dennis Perrin

Episode Date: March 22, 2018

This week: The life and death of Doug Kenney! "Planet of the Cheap Special Effects"! Randy Quaid subs for Sam Kinison! And Gilbert stars in Foto Funnies! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Colossal Obsessions. What a pro he is, Dennis. It's his marks every time. It took him 28 weeks to get their names of the show right. But he's good. He's got it now. And our guest today is Dennis Perrin. Now, Dennis. Oh, Dennis. Oh, Dennis.

Yes, Mr. Gottfried. Did you grow up hearing that? Oh, Dennis. Oh, well, no. Actually, it was Dennis the Menace. It was Jay North. It was a big Jay North thing, and I hated it. Dennis is here with us.

Dennis is an old friend, and he is also, he's an author, he's a journalist, he's a comedy writer. He is the author of Mr. Mike, the life and work of Michael O'Donoghue, the legendary comedy writer. Absolutely. A font terrible. Huh? A font terrible. And then some. The Netflix movie aired.

Gilbert, have you seen the new National Lampoon movie? The one where Joel McHale's playing Chevy? No. A futile and stupid gesture? You have to see it. Oh, wow. It's one of those movies I was telling Dennis this on the phone. Gilbert loves these things with the weird alternate universes. Yeah, sure. We talked

about how in Man on the Moon there's no Danny DeVito. Yeah, no Danny DeVito in Taxi. Right, but in this one Chevy Chase exists Oh, yes. There's no Danny DeVito. Yeah, no Danny DeVito in Taxi. Right. But in this one, Chevy Chase exists, but there's no Martin Mull. Right. Because Martin Mull's playing Doug Kenny. Right.

Martin Mull's playing. A fantasy Doug Kenny. A fantasy Doug Kenny. Had he lived. Yeah, had he lived. And looked like Martin Mull. And I'm going to make Gilbert watch it. And I got to experience myself, I mean, for a second,

in this terrible Robert De Niro film called The Comedian, where I'm listed as Gilbert Gottfried. And I thought, oh, here's a universe where Gilbert Gottfried exists, but Robert De Niro doesn't exist that i that always stands out in movies yeah this is one of those movies where it's very very strange well it's a movie it's weird i'm the worst audience for it because i'm so close to the material of course and i help work on the book that it's based on the book that frank is holding josh's book josh carp is a good friend of mine, a writer, journalist, lawyer.

I think he makes more money in law, which is a wise thing. Good for him. Something to fall back on. And I knew Josh through a guy named Mike Gerber, who's... American bystander, Michael Gerber. American bystander, which I've written for several times. Mike's an old SNL Weekend Update writer from the Tina Fey, Jimmy Fallon days. That's right.

Yeah. That's right. Were you a consultant too on the film? No, no, no. I mean, I knew it was happening. I met with Tom Lennon, Thomas Lennon. Right. You know Thomas Lennon, Gil?

He plays Felix on The New Odd Couple to Matthew Perry's Oscar. That canceled. And he's in the state. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Right, right, right. And he played Michael O'Donoghue. And I was out in L.A. for a variety of other reasons.

You know, my work with children. And I just happened to be in town. And Tom invited me and my better half, Laura laura guyer who's in the other room uh and he wanted to talk about odani he'd read my book and he was playing him he played him in the movie right so we talked about it but you know i i really wasn't sure what he was going to do and whatnot i i used to write for lampoon basicallyoon basically right before it died. Dennis and I were talking about this on the phone. You weren't there under Tim Matheson.

Yeah, Tim Matheson was there. I was there with also the original brothers. Oh, the Simmons brothers. The Simmons brothers. Yeah, I was there with them. Oh, the Simmons brothers. The Simmons brothers. Oh, the Simmons and Andy. Michael Simmons.

Yeah, I was there with them. And then later on came... Came... Matheson. He came in. Matheson, yes. Because of the Animal House connection. Right.

And I know Ratso, Larry Ratso's slowman was involved with it in the 80s at some point, but I'm not quite sure what. You were doing photo funnies and stuff like that. Yeah, I did a few articles. You were doing photo funnies and stuff like that. Yeah, I did a few articles. And then basically I realized, hey, I don't have to really write anything all that funny. And I could be photographed with naked curls. So I'm going to do photo funnies.

I remember. I remember seeing to do photo funnies. Yeah. I remember. I remember seeing you in those. Yes. I miss that part of the Lampoon's history. Oh, yeah. I think it was in Marrakesh or something. I don't know.

I was... It's a strange movie to watch. The device of using Martin Mull... Obviously, Doug Kenney, the founder of the Lampoon, the co-founder of the Lampoon, only lived to the age of 33. Right. He died in 1980. He died tragically in Hawaii.

He jumped off a mountain? It's unknown. They don't know whether he jumped or he slipped. It was the Harold Ramis line that Doug slipped when he was looking for a place to jump. Yeah. And in the movie, they strongly implied that he jumped. Because they showed the glasses, the eyeglasses.

The glasses and his shoes at the edge of the cliff. Like he laid it there. Yeah, yeah. So it would be found. It's fair to say he was depressed over Caddyshack. He hated Caddyshack. When they had the presser at Dangerfields with the whole cast, Ted Knight and Bill Murray and Chevy and Rodney,

he showed up really drunk and had to be removed because he was just saying, this is a piece of shit. What are you people doing here? And they dramatized that in the movie. That's the thing about the movie. It's like this hyper real sort of almost tongue in cheek take on the early Lampoon years in the early 70s. But then it has a tonal change.

Like it's like, you know, it's really tongue in cheek. And Martin Mould even says to the camera, well, you know, none really tongue-in-cheek and martin moll even says to the camera well you know none of these people are look like the people they're playing they're not even attempting to do a real limitation to that move well because i mean it was obvious right they had to call attention to it i don't know what their budget was so you know they were kind of limited i suppose in that respect but but um but then there was this tonal change of when Doug Kenny got Animal House, did Animal House and made a lot of money and went out to L.A. And he got involved with cocaine and just went nuts. And the whole Caddyshack thing, which he did not like Caddyshack.

And it was really kind of an amateurish production because it was Harold Ramis' first movie as a director. And they forced the robotic gopher on him. Yeah, which turned out to be the most gopher on him. Yeah, which turned out to be the most popular character in the movie. Go figure. And they actually dramatized the thing where he and his girlfriend, Catherine Walker, go to see Airplane. Right. And Doug Candy gets really mad because he says,

oh, man, this is so much better than Caddyshack. You know, I mean, people are going to love this movie and hate my movie. And Airplane actually is a better movie, actually, in terms of comedy. I mean, Caddyshack eventually, you know, got its due. They say that in the wake scene. Martin Mull's character says, and here's a twist, Caddyshack will later become a beloved movie. Yeah, yeah. Which, of course, he never lived to see.

No. I mean, I'm not a big Caddyshack fan. I never was. I thought it was a very uneven film, especially coming off Animal House, which is impossible to see. No. I mean, I'm not a big Caddyshack fan. I never was. I thought it was a very uneven film, especially coming off Animal House, which is impossible to top. Absolutely. I mean, that's your first movie, and it becomes the highest grossing American comedy ever,

and John Belushi's in it and makes everybody stars. Yeah. And it's like, okay, what's your next movie? And it's like, I don't know, we're going to do something on a golf course. You know, and he hooked up with Harold Ramis again and Brian DWall Murray. They were loopers, the Murray brothers. I think that was the genesis of Caddyshack.

They were teen caddies. Yeah, they filmed it at the same time as the Blues brothers because Brian McConaughey, who was a Lampoon writer and SNL writer and, among other things, SCTV, he plays a small role in Caddyshack. And he was talking about how the two films were like checking up on each other because Ackroyd and Belushi were in Chicago shooting Blues Brothers

and they were in Florida shooting Caddyshack and it was like the SNL because Bill Murray was down there in Chevy so it was like the SNL graduates, you know, these were their movies and it was like competing. And what was your feeling about Caddyshack 2? Jackie Mason stole it.

Jackie Mason stole it. And, of course, the scene where they had, you know, and Dan Aykroyd, I think he's playing like Bill Murray's even more retarded brother or cousin, like the groundskeeper. Yeah. It's really, it's quite a bad film. We learned recently that Dangerfield was pissed off at jackie mason oh really for take yeah for taking the part and chevy did it they brought chevy for like three days or something robert stack robert stack plays the ted knight role yeah have you seen caddyshack too did you sit through that from start to finish? Yeah, yeah. And what's funny about it is that it was obvious that the Randy Quaid part was written for Sam Kinison. Yeah.

Because it's Sam Kinison type screaming. Did you know that, Dennis? No, I did not. That's news. And so it's basically Randy Quaid yelling out lines written for Sam

Kinison. Tell us about O'Donoghue. Now, O'Donoghue becomes, obviously, he's a very important figure in the history of the Lampoon. He's an important figure in the movie. Yeah, I mean, Michael O'Donoghue was really he's the one who gave the lampoon its voice. Sex and violence and death.

For our listeners, just to jog their memories, he was Mr. Mike. Mr. Mike on Saturday Night Live, the original Saturday Night Live. He wore very dark glasses. He told very twisted children's stories. He did impressions. He did impressions of putting steel needles in his eyes, which ran out of steam rather quickly. My favorite was the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. That was the apex.

And Michael O'Donohue was brought in, I think, by Dick Ebersole. We're going to get to that. That's right. You're jumping. We're going to get to that. But, yes, he did, and we're going to get to that. To put more fight and more life into Saturday Night Live. Danger.

That was after you left. Yes. Right after. Right after you left. After you were asked to leave, I think. Yes. Right after I was told, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out. Quickly, because he might not know it.

Tell Dennis that story of how you were sitting outside of Gene Dumanian's office. You found the fan letter. I was there right when the original cast left was my season. And that was... Oh, I know. Yeah, that would be like in the mid-season of Friends. They got rid of the whole cast and got a bunch of other people and said oh this is the new cast

just act like same way you loved you know Jennifer Aniston just accept them so they hated us before we even made it to the air it was impossible man

it was an impossible mission and I remember so then we, oh, the funny thing was, Gene Dumanian was the producer. The Ayatollah Dumanian. Oh, yes. And I remember at one point that we were sitting in someone's office. Their office was empty. So I was hanging out there talking with Eddie Murphy.

And we were just hanging out there. And then somebody pokes their head in to Eddie and says, Oh, Eddie, the so-and-so from NBC would like to talk to you. And he was confused and he picked up the phone and he goes, yeah, yeah. Oh, shit. No, no, I won't tell anybody. No, no,

I'll keep it a secret. And before he even hangs up the phone, he goes, they fired Gene Dominion. And then, so in a second, everyone knew she was fired and and then she had to announce to everyone who had to sit there and pretend they didn't know she was fired uh you know what? She tearfully told us this. And to make matters more surreal, it was her birthday. And at the end of this speech where she says, you know, I love all of you and I miss, I'll miss all. They go, happy birthday.

And they bring out a cake with the candles burning on it. But so then a week later, Dick Ebersole comes in and he brings us together and he goes, you know, we're just going to make some minor changes. Don't even worry about it. And in a couple of days I'll tell you what so a few days later they were lining us up one after the other

outside Dick Ebersold's office to find out what was going to happen and there was a table that they used to drop all the fan letters on back when they still had fan letters and and some i pick one up when i'm killing time waiting for him to call me and and it's some girl from like omaha and and i open it up and it says dear gilbert i'm so sorry about what happened to you.

And that's how I found out I was fired from Saturday Night Live. Do we want to get into SNL? Do you want to finish the O'Donoghue? I just want to finish O'Donoghue. I have some questions for Gilbert because I've always wanted to ask. Sure. I mean, this is an honor for me, and I'm not being sarcastic. Really. Yeah, he watched all 12 episodes.

I have them. He has them. I have them I own them. He has them. I have them with period commercials. I wish I had a medal to give you. Thank you. I was re-watching some of them before I came here. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing

colossal podcast after this. If they hear you, they want you. Run. a quiet place day one june 28th get tickets now so This ad was expressly recorded to create a sense of simplicity. Just a few simple sounds. No complexity. Like Neutral. Made with just vodka, soda, and natural flavor.

Neutral. Refreshingly simple. And now back to the show. I'll ask you a couple of questions about O'Donoghue. How that came about. He was a comedy hero, obviously. Sure. You knew him and you interacted with him long before you decided to write a book.

Well, what happened was I knew him in the last five years of his life. I got to meet him through our producer friend, Frank Santapadre. Because your manager, Barry Secunda, also managed O'Donoghue. And I was doing a radio show on WBAI with a media group at the time that I was working with here in town. And I had been reading, Michael had been doing some interviews about corporate stranglehold of comedy. And he was like really anti-corporate and everything. And the media show i was doing was focusing on that kind of thing and so i thought two birds one stone right because i really wanted to meet michael o'donnell and i thought well this is the way i could do i have a radio show so i found out frank has an in so i call frank frank calls barry barry calls me he well, what do you want to talk to Michael about?

Because he's a very busy man. Of course, he wasn't busy. But, I mean, you know, he's an angry genius in exile, basically. And, you know. He was in exile at that point. He was definitely in exile. And, anyway, long story short, I end up talking to Michael. He calls me.

I got Barry interested enough for Michael to call so Michael calls and he goes yeah uh yeah what's this about what do you uh uh what do you want I mean it was just basically like you know what the fuck do you want I said well Michael if I may call you that you know I mean I'm a big fan of yours I was in high school when SNL was on blah blah blah blah and he goes oh yeah that's great yeah what and I said you big fan of yours. I was in high school when SNL was on, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he goes, oh, yeah, that's great. And I said, you know, one of my favorite sketches of yours came in your second stint on SNL. It was with Joe Piscopo and Mary Gross. And it was called Nick the Knock.

And he goes, you remember Nick the Knock? And I go, oh, yeah. Joe Piscopo for our listeners and maybe even for Gilbert. And I go, oh, yeah. Joe Piscopo for our listeners and maybe even for Gilbert. It was a sketch that Michael wrote to embarrass Joe Piscopo on television. Joe Piscopo the year before was doing the Jersey guy. You know, are you from Jersey?

I'm from Jersey. Yeah, the Jersey guy. So when Michael came into SNL and Joe, obviously, and Eddie, you know, survived, putched, Piscopo says, you know, well, hey, Michael, I do this Jersey character. He goes, we won't be doing that this year. We're not going for those kinds of laughs. He goes, but I got a character for you that I like to do. It's a hand puppet. And he's called Nick the Knock.

He goes, a hand puppet? He goes, yeah, we're going to have a little puppet set, little curtains, and you're going to play a hand puppet and he's called Nick the knock. He goes, a hand puppet goes, yeah, we're gonna have a little puppet set, little curtains, and you're gonna play a hand puppet. He goes, okay. So he writes this piece with, uh,

Pam Norris. Well, I think wrote for you. Yeah. I think she was on that staff. And, uh, it's basically,

he plays an idiot puppet. Who's like, I do, do, do. I'm Nick the knock. I'm Nick the knock. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, And he's just like going an idiot puppet who's like, I'm Nick the Nock, I'm Nick the Nock. And he's just like going around this puppet stage.

And Mary Gross plays this little fairy who comes down to the puppet stage and they chroma key her in. And she's like, Nick, Nick the Nock. Oh, you're such a savage boy. But I'm going to, you know, tell you the truth about beauty and she gives this poem like from tennyson or something and it's got this beautiful music behind it and then all of a sudden the puppet door knocks you know and he goes oh there's somebody at the door and he goes to the door and someone hits him with a brick bat and it drives him insane so he takes the fairy and begins eating her with green blood spurting all over the place

and the curtain closed and it says the end no laughs from the audience no applause in fact michael told me he goes we actually had the applause lights on and the audience refused to applaud this aired yeah wow and it aired right it was on the bernadette peters show so he appreciated that you he said he goes he, I think that aired once. I don't think they ever ran a reruns. I go, no, I didn't. I remember it. I go, it's one of those images

that you just remember, you know, especially if you're a comedy freak. And he said, okay, well, I'll come into your office when you want to talk. So then he came in and I interviewed him and I did the,

I put the tape on the show and he wrote me a beautiful letter and we became friends. And then I began going over to his apartment on 16th Street. The famous apartment. The Winter Palace, as Ann Beetz called it. Yeah, with his glass case,

with all of his Nazi dolls. All the weird stuffed animals. Cheap perfume collection. He had like a hundred identical plastic rhinoceroses. They were all together in a herd. Isn't there an owl? Yeah, well, he had stuffed animals over there. He had a stuffed flamingo.

Yeah, he had a stuffed flamingo with a mask on it. And when you went into Michael's apartment, he'd have a dressing gown or a robe. And he'd smoke his more cigarettes, you know, the thin brown cigarettes between his two fingers, his middle fingers. And he was a great host. I mean, he was very elegant. He goes, oh, hi. You want some coffee? I just made some coffee.

Do you want some coffee? And I was just like, I was out of my mind. I was like i'm sitting here with michael o'donoghue man i mean who the fuck am i i'm from lawrence indiana man i mean i don't and we got to be friends well anyway five years later he dies uh in 1994 i went to his wake yeah the famous wake cheryl hardwick invited me as his widow that's the one where where buck henry got up and made the uh and made the comment after chevy spoke yeah chevy got up there and i didn't know any of these people i mean i'd met michael

and i'd been to a couple of his parties and i met people like jan hooks and people like that but the originals i didn't know at all and chevy got up there i remember and he he had this speech about michael and he got some of the things wrong, and Tom Davis of Franken and Davis yelled, heckled Chevy. And then Lorne Michaels gets up and does this little solemn speech about Michael, what Michael meant to the show and all this sort of thing. And then Buck Henry gets up and says, thank you, Chevy. Thank you, Lorne. I think we all know what Michael thought of you.

Yes. Because Michael and Chevy had love-hate forever. When we had Chevy here, he had really very nice sentiments. Chevy worships Michael. There were projects that they worked on together that they saw the light of day.

Well, he was upset with Chevy because Chevy decided to do foul play with Goldie Hawn instead of making the movie that they were writing together. Right. Saturday Matinee. Okay. That was the planet of the special effects. That was within that, yes.

It was a mini film within a film. Right, right, right. Like Kentucky Fried Movie kind of a thing. And then after he passed, you decided you were going to write about it. I didn't decide anything. I just said, well, that's that because I figured, you know, okay, I had my time and I'd never written a book before. I mean, I'd written some small comic novels that didn't get published, but you know,

a biography, I had no idea. I'd never done that before. And an old girlfriend of mine says, you know, nobody knows. Oh, Donnie's work better than you do.

You should write the book. And I knew he had some famous, one person who's dead, but I'll keep his name because he was, I won't say his name because he was a very bitter man to the end. He assumed he was going to write it because he wrote about him for rolling stone and i called cheryl out of the blue oh i barely knew um even though i knew michael i didn't know cheryl his widow who was she was the co-musical director for snl with ge smith and uh so And so I said, Cheryl, I would love to write Michael's story,

and I want to tell you why. Can I meet with you for coffee or something? And she said, sure. So I go over to the Winter Palace. We're sitting at the long table next to the Curios, and I make my speech, my pitch, which I don't even remember because that was, like, out of my mind, you know. And she says,

that's it, you're it. She tagged me and she says, you'll be the official biographer. That was it. I wrote up a prospectus, an outline for it, got an agent like

that because everybody wanted to see the O'Donoghue book. Got a book deal. It's a good book. It's full of goodies. And then Cheryl gave me complete access to his files. I got everything. And there was a lot of unpublished stuff. Oh, there's a lot.

I had his childhood drawings. I had the first thing he ever wrote when he was like 10 years old. I had all of it. An interesting guy who was a sickly child rheumatic fever rheumatic fever yeah yeah did you ever meet him in your travels gilbert if if i met him it was very very briefly and i never i i never quite bought into that whole thing where, I mean, he, you know, when they said, when he announced to the new crew of Saturday Night Live, well, we're going to do things different.

And he took out a spray can and started spraying the walls and threw them spray cans. And I thought, you know, cut this shit. Write a funny bit or something. That's when he came back and he wanted to be referred to, how Dennis? As Reich Marshal O'Donoghue. He wanted to be referred to as Reich Marshal.

And he actually got that title. I wish you guys had crossed paths. That really would have been a joke. Oh yeah. I was on my way out. I'd like to say to our listeners that people who care about this stuff, who care about Lampoon history, who care about Saturday Night Live history, that they should get your book.

Thank you. Because it's not only about them. It's full of goodies. It's full of great stuff. It's not only about the man, but there's so much stuff in there. Things that never saw the light of day. Update jokes that never got on the air. A lot of censored material.

A lot of censored stuff. I had access to all of it. I had light of day, update jokes that never got on the air. A lot of censored material. A lot of censored stuff. I had access to all of it. I had all of his weekend update. He had a whole file of weekend update stuff that never got used. Yeah, it's a treasure trove. It really is. It was amazing. I mean, I kept forgetting I was supposed to be researching a book

because I'd be sitting on the floor of his file room going through all this stuff like a kid. Right. Wow. Finding the old Phoebebe's night guy stuff yeah exactly this is great oh i'm supposed to be uh researching this because i was just reading it and he's he's in the very first saturday night live sketch very first with belushi oh yeah i want to feed your fingertips to the wolverines the wolverines which they recreate in the lampoon

movie that's right it's created it's recreated for the movie. In the interest of time, what do you want to ask him? Oh, about SNL 80. Well, I loved your movie, by the way. He saw the doc. Oh, thank you very much. I really enjoyed it. And, of course, you came into your own in the 80s, obviously. But I noticed it seemed like Stalinist airbrushing

you didn't mention SNL at all oh he takes issue with the fact that SNL gets no mention in the documentary and for me I was in the Midwest I was a kid you know I remember when the new cast came on you mentioned the friends analogy which is perfect because you know when they announced the new cast and you had I guess a press

conference they had pictures and I saw the picture in the Indianapolis Star of the new cast, you had, I guess, a press conference. They had pictures. Oh, yeah. And I saw the picture in the Indianapolis Star of the new cast of Saturday Night Live. And I go, who the fuck are these people? Yes! That was everyone's reaction. And I'm like, this is a short guy with a Jewish afro, and there's this tall, skinny guy with wavy hair.

He was the only one I knew. That girl looks kind of cute. I don't know who she is. It was Ann Risley. She's kind of cute. Bill Mathias was cute. Yeah. Gilbert was the only one on the cast I knew because I had seen you at the comic strip.

Wow. In the 70s. But you see, for me, and I think for a lot of us out there who weren't part of the New York comedy scene at the time, you know, SNL was the first time we saw you. And it wasn't the Gilbert Gottfried, obviously, that we've come to know and love. What was funny is the criticism we were getting. Number one, they'd say, we don't know who these people are. And I thought, oh, as opposed to internationally known superstars, you know, John Belushi, Chevy Chase.

Nobody knew them. You can see that tomorrow show episode. You ever see that with Snyder interviewing the original cast? Absolutely. It was right before they premiered. But the thing is, the advantage they had over you guys is that they all worked together for years. Yeah. Right.

I mean, they actually had bonds. And when Chevy left, they brought in Bill Murray and Bill Murray was part of that same group. And you weren't expecting anything when they came on the air. Well, nobody knew what it was. But once it became the hit it was, then you guys

came in. Suicide mission. Absolutely. It's impossible. I know Harry Shearer thought about coming back to Gene Domanian. He said, if you let me bring in Tom Leopold and people like that, we can make it work. He said, you know, if you let me bring in like Tom Leopold and people like that, we can make it work. Because he said to her, you know, you got to hit the ground running.

You're not going to have time to find your way. You know, you've got to come in. And he was going to bring in Christopher Guest. And Domanian says, no, I want to find new people. I want to find my well. And she found her way into a wall. It was a suicide mission. You guys didn't have a chance.

It's a fascinating – like I said, I own all those episodes. And it's interesting. There's actually some really – as you guys started getting your footing a little bit and understanding the process, obviously. There's some interesting comedy. And actually, there's not some – I mean, there's some good sketches, actually. But, you know, who was watching it? Do you have any memory of being in anything good that you were proud of? No. None whatsoever.

Yeah, I just – I remember a lot. What were the writing sessions like? Because I'm curious. Oh, God. I remember talking to David Sheffield and Jerry Blaustein. They were telling me some stuff. But I never really got a sense because they were Eddie's guys. Right. And they came in late.

Yeah. And I always talk about this. I didn't get along with the writers. The writers didn't get along with me. At one point, they wrote me into a sketch. It was a funeral scene, and I was the corpse.

That was your fuck you from the writers. The organist was a sports organist. He was playing, you know, da-da-da-da-da. Oh, yes, yes. And I gotta ask this, and God bless him, and I actually had been commissioned to write a piece for Playboy, which fell through, about the life and death of Charles Rocket.

What was Charlie Rocket like? I mean, he looked manic. As the shows go on, you can see him coming undone. Because he did Weekend Update. Yes. And he became more manic every week. Poor guy. Because clearly the pressure was building.

Now, you probably interviewed me. No. Not when you were doing that. No. Because someone interviewed me who was writing something about Charlie Rocket. No, it was probably Josh Karp, the author of this book. Yeah. I got the gig from Josh.

It never, yeah, they decided against it. It was after he cut his own throat. Yeah. And, I mean, I know he had a sort of, I mean, he had worked with, like, the B-52s and TV Party, which was that avant-garde cable access show with Glenn O'Brien. I know he was part of that crowd. But I was just curious what he was like, because I know Gene, he was going to be the star.

He was first. You know who was friends with him? Joe Pantoliano. Oh, really? Yeah, they were tight. We talked about him on this show. And actually, he became a decent actor. In fact, in Dances with Wolves, he's actually really good in that.

In Earth, Girls are Easy, too. The funny thing is, is they say, you know, because he said fuck on the air. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Charlene Tilton. Fuck was said a billion times on Saturday Night Live. But they don't notice it the other time. But they said oh, and with that, that

killed his career. No, it didn't. Got him fired. He was in Dumb and Dumber and a bunch of other shows. Oh, yeah. A bunch of movies. He was on Dumb and Dumber and a bunch of other shows. Oh, yeah. A bunch of movies. He was on 30-something. Yeah. He did a lot of stuff. He was always popping up in TV and movies. Well, he had a good look.

Yeah. He was very photogenic, very telegenic. Of course, when Eddie emerged, I mean, that was, I mean, what did you guys think when Eddie first up? Were you jealous? Like, because he was getting all the attention all of a sudden?

Were you happy because he was saving the show or seemingly saving the show? Yeah. What was that like? Did you know him from the clubs? I didn't know him from the clubs. I may have run into him once or twice. I know he's at the comic strip. Yeah.

Yeah, I didn't really run into him because he was mainly like a Long Island comic. And he was in some, I think he was in a team called Identical Triplets. Yeah, he was with Nelson, Bob Nelson? Yeah, Bob Nelson. Bob Nelson. He was in it. He was a part of a trio. And I forget the third guy as I forget everything.

It wasn't Dave Hawthorne. I think so. The walrus. Yeah, yeah. You're going back to Long Island Comedy Club days. Oh, yes. Bob Nelson, the guy who did the punch drum. Jeffy Jeff.

Yeah, he did the boxing character. Yeah, punching himself in the head. He worked on a team with Eddie Murphy. Yes. That's an old pair. Eddie Murphy was in Roosevelt. He was a kid. What was that, Governor's Comedy Club?

Yeah. Well, yeah. East Side Comedy Club in Huntington trying things out in local joints. Yeah, yeah. Before he ever broke out. I myself, maybe I just totally blanked out on it. But I didn't notice anything about Charles Rocket that would lead me to believe he'd ever do something

like that. I fell for the kind of loose, joking around guy. In fact, years later, I was on some I did an appearance on a sitcom

and I was cast there. I was supposed to be a guy who was jealous of his brother, and my brother was played by Charlie Rocket. Oh, really? And we hadn't seen each other for years. And I remember it was out in L.A., and we were happy to see each other. We joked around and kept talking about old times, and he invited me to his house for dinner, and that was fun.

He had a wife and son, and, yeah, I didn't. Who knew? A sad turn of events. I mean, and that's an angry way to go out. Absolutely. Oh, my God, yeah. Cutting your own throat with a box cutter? That takes effort.

And that means it's not one of those, you know, bullshit, I'll make a little cut on my wrist. Cry for help. Yeah, yeah. This was not a cry for help. Cry for help. Yeah, yeah. This was not a cry for help.

This was, I want to kill myself, and I want it to be as painful to me as possible. He said fuck on SNL, then he said fuck to life. Yeah. You know, I think there's another book in the 12 episodes, Dennis, in Gilbert's short run. You know, I'm the guy to write it. Absolutely. You know that. Absolutely. Gil,, I'm the guy to write it. Absolutely. You know that. Absolutely. Gil, you should see the movie.

Yeah. A Feudal and Stupid Gesture. And can I just say real quick, in case anybody who's associated with the film is listening to this, in fact, I know some will hear it. I appreciate what they did. Me too. I wasn't part of it at all. I was part of the book, but not the movie. And I'm glad it's out there.

My vision of The Lampoon as a movie, first of all, I see it as like an HBO miniseries, like five episodes, because you really have to get deep into it. The documentary did a good job. Again, it graced the surface. The thing about The Lampoon, it's not a comedy story, it's a drama. It's actually a

very dark, dramatic story. These are very damaged people who were brilliant, and they were at the right place at the right time culturally and comedically. Yeah, and the movie doesn't quite capture that. No, it doesn't capture it at all, in my opinion. It treats them a little bit superficially, maybe because there's a lot of characters or there's a lot to get to. It's really Kenny's story.

Yeah. It's not so much the story. It's a lot of anachronisms, too. Yeah. I mean, O'Donoghue was dressed in 1970 like he'd be dressed in 1979. He had the dark glasses.

He was a hippie back then. He had hair down to here with wire frames and an old army jacket. It's a hard story. Also, you know, you're depicting real people. I'm watching and I'm thinking, don't have anybody play Rodney Dangerfield or Bill Murray. And they did.

And they tried, and it's an absolutely impossible task. No, it's impossible. And there's been talk about a spinoff with an O'Donoghue movie, which I'm more than happy to see. I don't know if I'd be a part of it. I guess I'd be a part of some of it but i mean uh michael michael's story is not in this movie if you're haven't seen the movie and you want to know more about michael o'donoghue thomas lennon tom lennon good guy yeah did a pretty good job they all did a pretty good i mean you know i mean he looks like o'donoghue i mean

again from the snl period it's just tough to capture. Was Henry a consultant? Was anybody who was there? I don't know. I mean, Henry Beard came out of retirement to talk about Lampoon after I was done with all of this. Right, right, right. Because back in the day, he wouldn't talk to anybody about it.

He refused. Christopher Cerf was as close to Henry Beard as I got. And he says, Henry will not talk to you. He won't talk to anybody. But now he's talking to everybody. So I don't know whether or not he had something to do with it, but the guy who played him, Donald Gleeson, did a pretty good job.

The wigs were all fucked up. I mean, it was like wig stock, you know. Two podcast guests turned up in it too, Rick Overton and Paul Scheer. Paul Scheer is the 30 seconds of Paul Schaefer, which is maybe the most surreal thing in the movie. Oh, yeah, yeah, the Caddyshack where Bill Murray does the lounge singer Nick the lounge singer from SNL

who shows up in Caddyshack for some reason But again, a universe where Paul Schaefer exists but not Martin Mull Yeah, right It's a topsy-turvy world And a trivia question for you, Gilbert Doug Kenny's Wake, which is the last scene in the movie, inspired

what famous 80s movie? I know Dennis knows. That's why I'm asking you. Do I know that? Michael Schamberg, Hollywood producer, was one of the people at Doug Kenny's Wake. Right. And he left thinking this is a movie. You didn't know this. I'm blanking.

It became The Big Chill. Oh, right. Yeah. I didn't know that. There you go. I You didn't know this. I'm blanking. It became the Big Chill. Oh, right. Yeah. I didn't know that. There you go. I really didn't know that. You really didn't know that? No, I didn't. I didn't know that.

Oh, look it up, my friend. Well, hey, Frank, you're my guiding light on this. I mean, you're my safety net. You know, if I fall off the high wire, Frank's there. I'm your home call on Millionaire. Absolutely.

You are. You're my lifeline. Absolutely. When I'm on Comics Un on Millionaire. Absolutely. You are. Absolutely. When I'm on Comics Unbound, you know, you're the guy I go to. I'm going to recommend Josh's book, A Feudal and Stupid Gesture. Gilbert, you should see the movie because we'll talk about it and it's surreal and we'll have Dennis back and we'll talk more fun details. And your book is terrific. Mr. Mike, The Life and Work of Michael O'Donoghue, The Man Who Made Comedy Dangerous. Get it on Amazon.

It's still available. It's on Kindle. It's in the old-fashioned hardcover and paperback. And Chevy's endorsed it. He called me two days after he read the book, and we talked for like three hours, and he was ecstatic. He says, for the first time, somebody actually got this fucking right. That's nice. And, in fact, all of the Lampoon SNL people loved it. I mean, because I was playing off of Wired by Bob Woodward,

that book about Belushi, which everybody hated. And my book was the first one after that. Your book is Affection. Yeah. Affection for its subject matter. Well, yeah. Some reviewers actually criticized me for that, that I was just too affectionate.

And I said, well, fuck yeah. I mean, these people are giants. There's nothing wrong with that. But it's also got criticism in it, too. I mean, it's a good book. Read it. You'll like it. Fuck them.

That's right. Gil? Okay. Well, this has been Gilbert and Frank's Amazing Colossal Obsessions. And our guest today has been Dennis Perry thank you Dennis thank you man this is an honor

this is an honor Colossal Obsessions