Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - Mini Ep #125: The History of the Muppets, Part 1 with Craig Shemin

Episode Date: August 17, 2017

This week: The legendary Caroll Spinney! Uncle Miltie holds court! The Muppets join the cast of SNL! And Gilbert sings with Miss Piggy (and Kermit)! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, I'm Gilbert Gottfried, I'm here with my co-host Frank Santopadre and this is Gilbert and Frank's Colossal Obsessions. And we're once again recording at Nutmeg with our engineer, Frank Berderosa. Colossal Obsessions. You have such a lilt in your voice. I'm just impressed that it took you how many weeks to get the name of this show down? No, it took me a few years.

A couple. Two and a half years. We're grading on a curve. We actually have a guest for a mini episode this week, and it's somebody that I've known. I'm trying to get my headphones to fit my head. It's somebody I've known a very long time. Mr. Craig Shemin is here with us. That is me. Craigie. Frankie.

It's so good to see you. How shall we introduce you? You are the president of the Jim Henson Legacy. That is correct. I'm also a freelance writer, producer, and doer of things. You are a doer of things. You are a former staff writer for the Muppets as well. You are the editor and the writer of the Muppets Character Encyclopedia. That is correct. Do we have this right? Yes. And it's available wherever fine books about Muppets are sold.

How long have you and I known each other? I think we met in a writing workshop in the 90s. We did. And I think because people were writing scripts for either Seinfeld or Murphy Brown. That dates. You had to date us. Yeah. And one of the instructors in that workshop was Suzanne Collins.

Yes. Who has become a... Wrote The Hunger Games. Become quite a success. And you remember one of the others was esteemed sitcom writer Lee Kalsheim. Lee Kalsheim, who wrote All in the Family. Yes. And we would always talk about him because he had an eye patch on at the time and he

looked like a pirate. What if Lee's listening to this? Well, hello, Lee. Have you considered that? I have. There's nothing wrong with looking like a pirate. Now, we had requests from our listeners saying, when the hell are you people going to do something about the Muppets?

So I said, okay, well, we'll get a Muppet expert in here. I just happen to know one. I know a few things about Muppets. Yeah. Now you also had a recent encounter with my co-host. Yes. Well, Gilbert and Dara brought the kids to one of the screenings. I do monthly screenings at the Museum of the Moving Image. We're about to open an exhibit there. And I saw Gilbert and the kids and Dara come in and I introduced myself and I'm like,

oh, I'm a friend of Frank's Santa Padres and Gilbert said, I wasn't aware Frank had any friends. That's not a bad impression. And I did a few things with the Muppets.

Yeah, I actually looked up your resume. Okay. He has a Muppet resume? Yes. You have your own page on the Muppets. Yeah. I actually looked up your resume. Okay. He has a Muppet resume? Yes. You have your own page on the Muppet Wiki. Oh, wow. He doesn't know what that is.

He doesn't know. It sounds good. It sounds obscene. Among other things, you were on Sesame Street. Yes. You did an appearance. You played a guy. Denny the Distractor.

Oh. Yes. You did an appearance. You played a guy. Denny the Distractor. Ooh! His only job was to be an annoying distraction to a game show contestant who was trying to accomplish anything. And somehow they thought of me. How would they ever think of you? And on Muppets Tonight? I win a date with Kermit. Yes.

I win a date with Kermit the Frog. Kermit goes to pick up his date with a bouquet of flowers, and Gilbert is the number one fan. Some comedy writers were sitting around saying, you know what would be funny? If Kermit's date turns out to be Gilbert Gottfried. Yes. I think that clip's available.

Yes. I think that's on YouTube. You can see it on YouTube. That's online, yeah, on YouTube. You did a voice cameo on Bear in the Big Blue House. Oh, my God, yes. You played a possum with Brad Bear in the Big Blue House. Oh, my God, yes. You played a possum with Brad Garrett as the other possum. Wow, you remember that?

That one, I remember the title, Bear in the Big Blue House, and I remember doing a voice for it. Brad Garrett, another guy he has not asked to do this show. And then the final one that I have on the list is a musical excerpt, which I think we may be able to listen to. Ooh, did you bring your own clips? We brought clips. Now, this was to set it up because that's what you do with a clip. Yeah.

This is like the old Carson show. I'm so excited. He brought his own clip. The Muppets did an album called Kermit Unpigged, and She Drives Me Crazy was the single off the album. So they did a music video as the kids did. Unpigged as in unplugged. Yes. Right.

That tells you when that was done. And how long ago it was, Bruce Willis was still married to Demi Moore. Oh, right, because they show up in the video. Do you remember who else shows up in that video? Oh, God. Bill Collins. Oh, yes. David Hasselhoff is in that video. Do you remember who else shows up in that video? Oh, God. Bill Collins. Oh, yes. David Hasselhoff is in that video.

Hasselhoff's in it. Conan. Bunch of people. Yeah, and we set up a white thing in the little studio that Henson had over on the east side. Right. And one by one, we would bring in these celebrities to come in. You were present for this? I was.

I was. And Gilbert was one of them. Was this in the townhouse right on 68th Street? No, this was on the little carriage house studio on 67th Street. Okay. I remember it being very hot that day. Yes. Yes. You remember that? I remember that.

I remember going over there. He remembers discomfort. And it was, yes. He remembers his character, too. Yes. You took me to that townhouse. I had the street wrong. Yeah. It was 67th Street. And was there a spiral staircase? Well there was There's the townhouse on 69th street With the spiral staircase

Oh that's the one I'm thinking of Excuse me The one on 69th Right right That was a treat Yeah And you showed me Jim Henson's old office Oh yeah

That was great She drives me crazy And I can't help myself Well we actually We actually have the clip. This is special pick-ins. That's called pound stuff. You won't make it

Without me That is what Guaranteed You drive me crazy Like no one else I don't know You drive me crazy. What was that? I don't know. Oh, it's some, yeah. You drive me crazy.

You remember doing this? Oh, yes. But this was one of your first big musical. Oh, yeah. And then I went on to be Tevye and fit hard in the room. You even remember the characters you played. Yeah. In this thing. Oh, yeah.

And I remember I did the episode of The Muppets of Sesame Street when the actor strike was going on because the actors were still allowed to do Sesame Street. Oh, yeah. I think they had a separate deal. It was a separate contract. Yeah. And so that was – And I should mention my wife who's here and there, Stephanie DeBruso. The lovely Stephanie DeBruso.

She remembers you coming in with the kids and everything. Stephanie was wonderful in Avenue Q. She was. And I went three times. And I waited, my wife and I waited for her. I'm turning in my seat to wave to Stephanie. My wife and I waited for her at the backstage door. Is that what they call it?

Yes. To meet and greet. She was terrific. I hope she met you and greeted you. She did. Oh, good. And she was demonstrating her Johnny Mathis. She did a killer Johnny Mathis for us in the hallway before we turned the mics on. Now,

tell us a little bit before we get into Jim Henson and his history and the legacy. How did you become a Henson slash Muppet person in the first place? Well, I was a Muppet fan. I came into it from being a fan. And I was in college trying to figure out what to do with my life. And I happened to see a Henson documentary on TV. And I'm saying, well, gee, I wonder if they do internships. And I called up the next day and got myself an interview to come in during spring break. And I ended up being an intern at the Henson company. And then I started full-time for them soon after graduation. But I remember that when I was an intern, that's when I met Jim Henson at the company softball game. Oh, that's where you met him.

Yeah. He didn't know who I was. So he came up and started a conversation because he knew everyone else. He was such a nice man. And he borrowed my baseball glove for the game and had him sign it afterwards. So I think I have the only game-used Jim Henson baseball glove. You still have it? I still have it. Wow. Now, was Jim Henson one of those people who didn't believe in doctors or medicine?

Well, he came from a Christian science family, but he was not that adamant about it. He had doctors. He saw doctors. It was just an unfortunate confluence of events when he died because he was a guy who didn't get sick a lot and he had a um a strep pneumonia that was so fast moving that it just came on all of a sudden and you know he didn't really think he was as sick as he was getting and then by the time he realized how sick he was, it was too late. Tragic. We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. And now back to the show. And didn't, I'm piecing this together from memory, and I'm trying to remember the townhouse on 69th Street.

Wasn't there an attempt made or an effort made to preserve the office as was, as Jim had left it, and not to disturb it? Well, you know, for years it was pretty much that office was pretty much the way he left it. And I think for a brief time, you know, the Jim Henson legacy and the family, we looked into turning that building into a museum. And we did studies, we had things made, but the situation was that the building is relatively small. It's a New York townhouse. So the studies came back that we would not be able to get enough traffic through the building to get enough revenue to make it going as an ongoing operation. And so they wound up selling the property. They sold the property. The Henson Company is now based in Long Island City and on the old Chaplin Studio lot in LA. Sure, sure. Now, there's like a million commercials and TV shows with puppets that look like the Muppets. And so obviously the influence or plagiarism is going on.

And now where did the style of the Muppets come from originally? Were they influenced? Well, I think that Jim really was influenced by Disney a lot in terms of seeing the big white eyes with the black pupils in the center of them. But he really developed his techniques a lot. He drew from a lot of things because— You know, in my school, there were a lot of black pupils. You set them up. Yes. So when he was starting out, you know, he sort of made two big discoveries.

One was that you didn't need a puppet stage if you were using the TV camera to, you know, isolate the characters so the puppets could interact with humans. And then using the TV monitor, you know, when you're a puppeteer and you're performing into a TV monitor, you can be the audience for your own performance. So you can instantly see what the audience at home is seeing so you can you know move around you can compensate for things you can look at the camera you can know the timing is really precise and that was sort of the the two big really big revolutions and and puppetry that he brought to television. Because he was not really a puppeteer.

When Jim started, he was a high school kid. And he turned to puppetry just because he wanted to get into television. You know, he was fascinated with television. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. And he saw there was a local TV station that wanted to use young puppeteers as part of a morning news show on the weekends they were doing. And Jim said, oh, they want to do puppeteers. I can get a – I can learn puppetry.

And he got a couple of books out of the library, taught himself puppetry, built some puppets, and he got himself a job because he wanted to be around television. And this was 1955. So things were just starting out. When did he work with Stan Freeberg? We were talking on the phone about some of his early gigs. 1955 so things were just you know starting out when did he work with stan freeberg you we were talking on the phone about some of his early his early gigs he actually never worked with him but he worked with him indirectly because uh jim's first tv show was this local uh show called salmon

friends for five minutes in washington dc and he would lip sync to records and he would lip sync to bob and ray records and to uh and to stan freeberg you know basically and they would lip sync to records and he would lip sync to Bob and Ray records and to Stan Freeberg, you know, basically. And they would just get the records from the record library and just lip sync and come up with a little sketch to do to the audio. And they didn't bother to get Stan's permission. And then Stan heard that these people, yeah, he heard that these people were using it, and then when he came from D.C.

and he went to the studio and visited, he really liked what they were doing. You know, you can use my stuff anytime. And now, you know, for years after that, Freeberg took credit for some of the Muppets' success. Oh, did he? Oh, yeah. How convenient. As did Steve Allen,

who gave him the first primetime shot on TV. Steve, we found out in talking to Carl Reiner that Steve Allen was instrumental in the birth of the 2,000-year-old man. He was the one that sent Mel Brooks and Reiner into the— Oh, yeah. They were doing it at parties. Steve Allen was sort of the nexus of the show business universe. Now, I remember when I was a kid watching Ed Sullivan, and the Muppets were a recurring guest on the Ed Sullivan show. But back then, they would do sketches, but there were no recognizable Muppets.

There was no Kermit or Piggy. Kermit popped up in one or two, but what they did then was sort of these self-contained acts where they would have a beginning, middle and end because it was, you know, they needed to have something that didn't rely on you having seen them before. And they did 25 appearances on Sullivan. And Sullivan would always, you know, mess up their introductions. Yeah. I remember. And this is, mess up their introductions. Yeah. I remember. And this is before Sesame Street. Yeah.

And other variety shows, too. Is it Jimmy Dean? Jimmy Dean. That was the first time that the Muppets had, like, a regular character. Ralph the Dog was Jimmy Dean's hound dog buddy. Do you remember Jimmy Dean? He became the sausage guy, but he was a big bad John.

He had a variety show. It's so funny to think that it's like to this day, when I think of Jimmy Dean, I always think, now I know he was in show business before making sausages. I know that he is. Yeah. No, he did. He had a great bit with Rolf every week, and he really made Rolf real.

You know, he knew how to interact with him. And, you know, I heard stories from Jane Henson that, you know, one day Jimmy Dean, you know, asked Jim. He came to Jim with an investment opportunity, and it was the sausage company. Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. And Jim passed on it because he really, you know, he didn't know anything about sausage. Oh, geez. investment opportunity and it was the sausage company really yeah oh that's so cool and uh jim passed on it because he really you know he didn't know anything about sausage oh geez what were some of the other variety shows well i mean uh sullivan jimmy dean he did uh al hurt the

musician al hurt the trumpet player had a variety show fanfare um i did not know that herb albert did a show Sure The Hollywood Palace Oh I remember Hollywood Palace Remember Hollywood Palace On Saturday night That was the show That rose out of the ashes

Of the Jerry Lewis show I think Because they had gotten The Oh the three hour Jerry Lewis show Yeah Well they had done

All the renovations On the theater Right Which we talked about With Tom Sharpling Yes The Jerry Lewis tile Yes If I remember Hollywood Palace correctly It was sort of a precursor To SNL The theater. Right. Which we talked about with Tom Sharpling. Yes. The Jerry Lewis tile. Yes.

If I remember Hollywood Palace correctly, it was sort of a precursor to SNL because it had a host. It had a celebrity host every week. That's pretty much it. Yeah, yeah. I remember Adam West singing on there as Batman. Yes. Which you can see online. His hit Miranda.

Miranda. Yeah. And I heard like a lot of the Muppets were based on real people. Well, there were a few. I mean, the one that I think of was a Dr. Teeth was based on Dr. John. You know, that's cool. The singing voice was not so much the visual. Sure. But and but a lot of the characters, some of those ones that you see on Sesame Street are based on real people. So when does Jim kind of break in? He's starting to do local television.

But when does he kind of start breaking into the mainstream? I mean, Jimmy Dean and Hollywood Palace, this is the early 60s. Well, all that time, he was also doing experimental films. Right. And he did an Oscar. Commercials, lots of commercials. Right. Did an Oscar-nominated experimental film called Time Piece, films right and he did commercials lots of commercials yeah right did an oscar nominated

experimental film called timepiece which is really really fun i mean it's it's it's really weird but fun and a lot of quick cutting and um and stuff but i think it wasn't until sesame street that he really you know the muppets became one of those overnight successes that took 15 years to get there. Sure, sure. And The Muppets got more and more like adult. Like you could watch it no matter what your age. Yeah, what's interesting is that it started out as adult because the very first show, The Sam and Friends Show, aired before the evening news in Washington and before The Tonight Show. So it had that grown-up thing. Washington and before the Tonight Show. So it had that grown-up thing. And then when Sesame Street came around, people thought that the Muppets were for children because all those years of doing Sullivan and those primetime shows, they weren't really doing stuff for kids. And then Sesame

Street got the Muppets known for being performers for children. And so it, it made Jim struggle a little bit to get back to prime time. But that's one of the reasons that they did Saturday night live. They did a season on Saturday night live. Yeah. And I think I was, uh, uh, Phil O'Donohue.

Now Phil O'Donohue. Michael O'Donohue. Phil. No, yeah, no, no, this was the one.

You just came up with. I would have watched one married. Very controversial subject, I lost. You just came up with it. I would have watched that show. There was that Muppet of Marlo Thomas. Don't go there. Yes. Phil O'Donoghue. Do you know anything about Danny Thomas?

I do know. I can tell you that neither Danny Thomas nor Cesar Romero ever did the Muppet. Okay, good. You dodged that beautifully. Deflecting that before we get to it. I do know I can tell you that neither Danny Thomas nor Cesar Romero ever did the Muppet. Okay, good. You dodged that beautifully. Deflecting that before we get to it. So Michael O'Donohue, he said one of his famous lines that he said in a meeting at Saturday night was, I don't write for felt. Shall we explain a little bit to our listeners who Michael O'Donohue was?

Yeah. Yeah, he was the very, well, how would you describe him? Acerbic? Acerbic is a great word. Yes, he was a Lampoon editor who became a writer at SNL and was famous for doing impressions of celebrities with their eyes gouged out by knitting needles. And I think at that time also in SNL, Belushi referred to them as the mucking puppets. The mucking puppets. Yeah.

But if you read the early SNL books, there's a lot of animosity about the Muppets. The Muppets had a regular slot in the show and everybody else had to sort of jockey to get their airtime. They had to write their own bits and the Muppets had this regular slot. to get their airtime. They had to write their own bits, and the Muppets had this regular slot. So there was animosity because they weren't in the same competitive circle. And I think a lot of it, you know,

the Muppets ended up on SNL because of Bernie Brillstein. Bernie was Jim's manager, and he was the manager for a lot of talent. He sort of packaged everything. Did you know that? That that's how that's... Because he handled Aykroyd and Belushi. Yeah.

Yeah. That that's how they got on Saturday Night Live. And you and I were talking about who were the characters? Was it Scorch or... Well, it was The Land of Gorch.

The Land of Gorch. And there was Scred and... I haven't seen those in years. King Plubis. Vaj. Although they must be, those shows must be intact from the first season

if you get them on DVD. The DVD has all the Muppet segments on them. Right. And there was a lot of bad feeling about them. But you told me on the phone that they were only too happy to leave. Yeah, because it was while they were doing SNL is when they got the offer to do the Muppet show from Lou Grade, who had his own production entity in England. Right.

You remember watching those? Oh, yeah. What was your feeling about those at the time? And I don't want to offend, but I must say that I love the early show, and I used to think that the Muppet segments kind of stopped the show in its tracks. Well, I think there were a couple of them that worked.

You know, there was a great segment with Scred and Lily Tomlin singing I Got You Baby. I do remember that one. And I think when they were sort of more character-oriented like that, it worked. Yeah. Sometimes they made fun of it eventually because they actually did things where Chevy Chase would interact with them in their boxes backstage. I remember that. Complaining they weren't on the show that week.

Yeah. So they found a way to work them in. Yeah. Yeah. I think I like them a little bit more than the bees. Oh, yes. So here's a fun thing. Oh, this is what I wanted to ask you about Sesame Street.

We were talking on the phone, and Jim was the original. Was he the original Ernie? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Carol Spinney was always Big Bird. Carol Spinney was always Big Bird. How did he feel about the fact that he wanted to break into television? He was he had designed these characters that, as you say, were kind of adult.

And the big, big breakthrough happened on a children's show. Well, I think that he was very proud of the work he was doing on Sesame Street. I think the only time there was any frustration was that during that time they did a few primetime specials. They did Muppet Valentine's show. They did a show. This will give you an idea of how Jim wanted to be known in primetime. They did a show called Sex and Violence with the Muppets. And, you know, these were half-hour primetime specials that were kind of like what the Muppet show ended up becoming.

So, go ahead. No, no, I was just saying that that was really what Jim was trying to do while doing Sesame Street. But, you know, he never stopped doing Sesame Street. You know, it took a different, you know, amount of time in his life. But he stayed with it until he passed away. Sure, sure. So what's Big Bird's name again, Carol?

Carol Spinney. And so he was Big Bird when I was there. Yeah. And so because I remember this. There's another puppeteer who does Big Bird, who sort of does Big Bird when Carol's not available, Matt Vogel. But, you know, Carol has been the primary Big Bird. Because I remember when I was there with the kids,

I wanted to have a picture of them with Big Bird. Because I remember when I was there with the kids, I wanted to have a picture of them with Big Bird. And I said, well, I'm not going to take a picture when he's hanging on the wall. And he got into costume. He put on the full costume just so he could take a picture. That's nice. He's a wonderful guy. Do you remember when you did it? Do you remember what year this was?

Yeah. It wasn't that long ago. No, it wasn't that long. You had children at the time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, not mine. I just found them in a school yard.

That goes without saying. So Craig brought yet another clip that he's going to, and we'll actually go out on it. But this is fun, and we're going to have to do a part two because we have – I'm not going to say it, Frank. Frank has gotten on my case for saying we barely scratched the surface during every interview. He's just – he made a drinking game out of it. He made a drinking game out of it. So I'm not going to say that thing. I'm going to say we've just about –

Do it. Do it. it do it do it we've barely gotten into it yes and when we come back and when we come back another another day i have a game to play with you guys you do oh yeah okay so we're gonna do a part two because we have to get into the muppet show barely scratched the surface don't take my catchphrase. We'll get into the Muppet Show. We'll get into the movies. We'll get into all kinds of other stuff when we do a part two. But for this part one, Craig has brought us a little story, and he has a clip that goes with it.

Well, a little story. But before I get into the story, I do want to mention that our exhibit at the Museum of the Moving Image opens July 22nd. Shame on me. And we do monthly screenings, so check out the Museum of the Moving Image. I forgot the plug. It opens July 22nd. Shame on me. And we do monthly screenings, so check out the Museum of the Moving Image. That was the reason we timed it this way. July 22nd at the Museum of the Moving Image. And if you're in Seattle, there's an exhibit at the Museum of Pop Culture now.

And in Atlanta, there's an exhibit at the Center for Puppetry Arts. So our friend Howard Kalin, who's in Seattle, can go see that. What is that called, the show at the Museum of the Moving Image? It's called Jim Henson, the Exhibition. Jim Henson. What an original name. So a name who has come up on this show maybe once or twice. It's everybody's Uncle Miltie.

Uncle Miltie. And the back story of this. And what was the reason Milton Berle's name? I don't know. I can't remember why his name and Danny Thomas' name. Well, Danny Thomas, there was something about scratching a surface. Yeah. Which I don't know about Miltie.

Miltie, I think, scratched many surfaces. He might have scratched a few surfaces. Some poor Micah. Milton was a guest star on The Muppet Show. And while Jim always wanted the guest stars to try new things, Milton didn't always try new things. He liked things the way they were. So we have a little clip. Joe Bailey, who's one of the writers on The Muppet Show, who has a book out called Memoirs of a Muppet Writer. Okay. I told him I'd plug the book.

Plug Joe's book. And Joe recorded with a little audio you know, audio cassette recorder, this meeting of Milton Berle and the Muppet Show writers. Did Miltie know he was being recorded? Yes, I think so because, you know, when you listen to, I put together a little excerpt. When you listen to the whole thing, there's a couple of points where he says, turn that off or something like that. So I think that he knew that, you know, he knew he was being recorded. Okay, so we'll go out on the clip and this is Uncle Miltie being recorded, not secretly.

Yes, but he's sort of telling a room full of experienced comedy writers their business. Okay, so we'll take us out on the clip. Okay, so this has been Gilbert and Frank's Amazing Colossal Obsessions. That's it with Craig Shemin, Muppet expert, and we'll do a part two very soon. Thank you, Craig. It has been a joy and a pleasure. The joy was ours. You did the Uncle Miltie, Uncle Sammy thing up there.

Well, that's new. That's new. That's never been done. Ah, okay. Uncle Miltie makes it. Uncle Sammy takes it. Right. Talk about your book.

Yeah, my book. Sammy takes it right talk about your book. Yeah, my book. Mm-hmm I'll have is it true. Mr. Burrow that You wrote An autobiography of your life. Yes. Yes. I'll say it It's fifth printing. I have to take the whole joke myself. They that can't feed me That's the first forward blurred and one thing I'd like you to try to do for me Seriously to time your laugh track when you feed trust me trust me to have the next line

right because I'll give the beat I say yeah there were a first full of blurred next question is so you can lay it in because because they might say, the first four were blood. Is it true, then? Then you will be able to lay it in. They can only laugh for four and a half seconds. And that's the one I started on. Two, three, four. I started that back in 1948.

Two, three, four. To ourselves, I used to tell every actor. That's what Bob does. You work for Hobie. He says, will you wait? And Bob always has the next line. You ever work for Jack Benny? It was here Benny's script. Then he has the next line

Example races your money your life. Yes, the biggest job, right? Sure, he'll judge your money your life or he stood the next line is saying well the Bird says well well and his joke is I'm thinking I'm thinking right before he said well well he had to make a sound to give him the cue because he timed that to 35 seconds that's how big the left oh yeah money of your life anyone said he went to the building you already left I said it was a building. You ought to laugh. Colossal Obsessions