Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast - The Godfather's 50th Anniversary with Mark Seal

Episode Date: March 28, 2022

Vanity Fair editor and award-winning journalist Mark Seal, author of the sensational behind-the-scenes book, "Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli" joins Gilbert and Frank to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Francis Ford Coppola and Mario Puzo's 1972 mob masterpiece, "The Godfather." Also in this episode: Burt Lancaster closes in, Vic Damone bows out, Marlon Brando pulls off a shocking transformation and the mafia takes offense at the word "mafia." PLUS: The music of Nino Rota! The genius of Dick Smith! Gilbert roasts Abe Vigoda! Mark climbs into bed with Robert Evans! James Caan's performance is inspired by...Don Rickles!? And Richard Castellano ad-libs one of the greatest lines in movie history! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Dine-in only until 11 a.m. at A&W's in Ontario. Hi, this is Gilbert Gottfried, and this is Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host, Frank Santopadre. Exactly 50 years ago today, almost to the minute, a highly anticipated new movie premiered at the Lowe's State Theater in New York City, an event attended by everyone from Jack Nicholson to Henry Kissinger. The movie making its debut that night is one we've discussed many times on this show, 1972's gangster epic, The Godfather. And tonight's guests may just know a thing or two about that subject as well. Mark Zeal is a much admired journalist and contributing editor at Vanity Fair, He might. finalist for the National Magazine Awards and has written articles for Esquire, Playboy,

Rolling Stone, and the New York Times. And his 2016 Vanity Fair piece, The Over the Hill Gang, about a gang of thieves who pulled off the biggest jewel heist in British history was the basis of the 2018 Michael Caine film, King of Thieves. He's the author of the books Wildflower, The Man in the Rockefeller Suit, and notably the new book, Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli, a well-researched, brilliantly written account of making what many consider the greatest motion picture ever produced, featuring wonderful interviews with director Francis Ford Coppola, actors James Caan, Talia Shire, and Robert Duvall, and studio exec Robert Evans, and many more.

Frank and I are excited to speak to a gifted writer and storyteller and a man who once found himself in a hush-hush meeting in a New Jersey deli with the son of mob boss Joe Colombo, the talented Mark Seale. I believe in America. America is where I make my fortune. I raised my daughter in the American fashion. I gave her freedom, but I taught her never to dishonor her family. She found a boyfriend, not an Italian. They took her to the movies.

They made her drink alcohol. Then they tried to take advantage of her, but she resisted. She kept her honor. So they beat her like an animal. The next day in the hospital, her nose was broken. Her jaw was shattered, held together by wires.

She couldn't even weep because of the pain. But I wept. The next day in the courtroom, the judge gave three years suspended sentence. Suspended sentence. They went free that very day. And those bastards smiled at me. And I said to my wife, for justice, we must go to Don Corleone.

Why don't you go? Why don't you come to me first? What do we think, Mark? you going to the police? Why don't you come to me first? Bonasera, Bonasera. What do we think, Mark? Well, it's pretty great. I'm speechless. Now, I don't want you to say anything else for the rest of the show.

Okay, I'll just let you run with it. I'll just recite the card. He was very proud of that, Mark. He called me up and he said, listen, I know the Bonasera speech. And he said, but if I go too far, just stop me. But I was watching Mark's face, and he was somewhere between entertained and befuddled. Yeah. Exactly.

Somewhere between that's great and what the fuck is this? Anyway, it's great to be here. Thank you, man. And welcome and thanks for sticking with us. You're a very busy man. It wasn't easy to nail you down. Great to be here. Thank you so much.

And here you are. Judging by this book, if you really want scary mob stories, you shouldn't see The Godfather. They should have filmed the making of The Godfather. Yeah. The making of the movie was, you know, almost as wild off screen as what you see on screen. Yeah. Yeah. Including something we referenced in the intro. As part of your journey in writing this book, you wound up in a diner in the wilds of Jersey with the son of mobster Joe Colombo. Yes. In fact, that story opens your book. Exactly.

Yes. So I met him and he was older then and walked with a cane. We met in a diner in New Jersey. And I wanted to talk to him about potentially interviewing him for the book. But he actually wrote his own book, which is really a great, great read as well. But really, it was an amazing journey from start to finish. All the people that I met along the way were just one interesting character after another. Yes, I can imagine. Tell us how this all began. I mean, and I don't mean you seeing the film as a college freshman back in 1972. And as Gilbert pointed out again in the

intro, we are, it's six o'clock here, New York time on the 14th of March, which is 50 years almost to the hour. Exactly. That this film was first screened or its premiere in New York. 50 years ago this evening at the Lowe's State Theater in New York, in the middle of McGraw, and Henry Kissinger, took their seats in the theater and watched the magic begin for three hours. Amazing. I always remember like the Godfather, the advertisement on the radio was just the Godfather is now a movie. And then he played da-da- now the guy who you named the artist who drew the poster which was a hand holding marionette strings right uh yes he was uh

a japanese artist yeah named fujita and he uh had done uh various logos he was quite a talented uh artist and he he looked at those strings you know mario puso mentioned men holding the strings and he took that and he uh created that very simple Stark logo of that hand holding the puppeteer's cross and the strings dangling down. And with the Stark logo of the Godfather in that typeface that you can never forget, right? No, it's so memorable. Yeah. And I always liked simplistic movie posters. When they show too much action, I thought they're desperate.

But when it's something simple like that, it just makes you wonder. I know. It's just so captivating. I mean, even today, you look at that book cover. It's so simple, but it says everything, right? And you use the font for your title. Yeah, I mean, that font is used quite a bit. You know, you see that so often and uh that font as well was so brilliant and uh so simple but it just you know

when you look at it it just says the godfather it works and you weren't uh no not you weren't The people, the movie makers were not allowed by the mob to use the word mafia. Yes, because there was something called the Italian American Civil Rights League back in the in the 60s and early 70s. And they its leader was Joe Colombo, the reputed head of one of the five families of New York. He was the founder of the league, and he felt that that word mafia put Italian-Americans in a bad light. And so the producer of the movie met with the league and with Colombo and let him read the script. And the only thing he wanted was that word mafia not be used in the movie, but it had only been used one time in the original script. So they took it out and a world of cooperation opened in New York. But wasn't the whole Italian American Civil Rights League kind of a front for the mob in the first

place? Well, on one hand, it really was a civil rights league, and they really did succeed in getting the word mafia not used in press releases, I think, from the Justice Department and other places, and newspapers and publications, newspapers, newspapers and other and other in publications, newspapers, different different places. So they really it really was a real cause. So, yes, there was, you know, some people say what you what you say, but others say it was a real cause. So the truth is somewhere there in the middle. Well, they got they managed to wrangle Sinatra to perform at a benefit. Yes, exactly. Frank Sinatra performed at a benefit for like oh my gosh it was thousands of people and raised a lot of money and so this was a group uh this was a group that uh

that the movie makers had to contend with and and weren't the papers making fun of the movie for not using the term mafia yes because, because after the producer, Al Ruddy, agreed to delete the word mafia from the script, even though it was only used once, the newspapers covered it because there was a press conference the next day held in the Park Sheraton Hotel, and members of the media attended that press conference, and it was in the Park Sheraton Hotel, and members of the media attended that press conference, and it was in the headlines the next day. And so there was a lot of backlash over the deal about all of that. So, yes, it was in the headlines.

Now, we mentioned Sinatra. Sinatra and okay so there's that whole scene where Sinatra under a different name shows up at the Corleone party and Johnny Fontaine yeah he wants to be

in a movie and the head of the studio doesn't want him and now what so Sinatra there was that scene about Sinatra head of the studio doesn't want him. And now what? So Sinatra, there was that scene about Sinatra. And yet, wasn't he also asked to, or he was trying to be Don Corleone in the picture?

At first, he did not want the movie. I mean, at first he didn't, you know, we don't know exactly what he said, but there was the altercation between him and Mario Puzo at Chasen's restaurant in Los Angeles. You'll have to give us. Yeah, I can tell you about that. But, you know, he the character of Johnny Fontaine, you can look at it two ways. I mean, in the movie, he's comes on. He sings.

He's a beautiful, beautifully dressed, he's a great singer. And then the whole character of Johnny Fontaine is where the movie turns, you know, where he can't get that role that he wants so badly. And the Godfather says, of course, you know, I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse and the horse's head scene comes after that so you know it was widely believed that that character was based in part if not in a lot of part by uh on frank sinatra and in the beginning it seems that he did not like that portrayal portrayal because in the book in mario puso's novel there's a lot lot more Johnny Fontaine than there is in the movie. Well, Victim Mone was attached originally, was he not? Victim Mone was attached at one point, but the story goes that he couldn't get out of his Las Vegas dates. And so Al Martino, who had not acted in a movie, got the role.

And he was a long time singer las vegas and nightclubs across america and new york and uh he really inhabited that role right he sure as hell did that i i according to your book that was a total ad lib uh when marlon brando slaps him and goes, you can act like a man. Exactly. Yes. I was told that Al Martino was playing the role and wasn't as animated as Brando thought he could be. And so he ad-libs that slap. And he goes, you can act like a man, just like you said, like Gilbert in person. It's great.

I didn't know that. I thought I knew so much about the making of this movie, and I absolutely did not know that. It's one of the wonderful little gems and surprises in your book. Godfather, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. You can act like a man. What's the matter with you? Is this how you turned out at Hollywood's Pinocchio, that cries like a woman? What can I do? What can I do? What is that nonsense? Ridiculous. You spend time with your family? Sure I do.

Good. Because a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man. You look terrible. I want you to eat. I want you to rest well and a month from now this Hollywood big shot's gonna give you what you want. It's too late, they start shooting in a week. Big Shot's going to give you what you want. It's too late. They start shooting in a week. I'm going to make them an offer they can't refuse. But just to complete Gilbert's arc, his question about Sinatra,

Sinatra originally objected to the depiction of the character in Puzo's novel. Right. And their run-in at Chasen's, the movie had not even been made yet. Exactly. It was based on, and they had to be pulled apart finally. And then later in the book, you say that Sinatra had changed his tune to the point where he approached Coppola and said, what, let me buy this thing and we'll do it together? Yeah, he said, let's buy this thing and I'll do The Godfather. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah, because I think by that point, it was a bestseller. Mario Puzo's novel was racing up the bestseller list. And Paramount had to make this movie because Burt Lancaster wanted to buy it from the studio and Danny Thomas wanted to buy it from the studio. And either one of them might have played the godfather amazing but Danny Thomas Danny Thomas is the godfather I can't see it yeah but also he wanted to buy Danny Thomas was more ambitious than that he wanted to buy Paramount well Danny Thomas was doing pretty well because he had all of those shows in syndication.

That's right. And, you know, were top ten shows. And, you know, so he was a very successful producer other than being an actor. You know, you read the book, Mark, and you've written extensively about movies. You have a wonderful Vanity Fair article, too, that we'll tell our fans about Pulp Fiction. And you know as well as anybody that so many things can go wrong in the making of a movie and derail it immediately.

I mean, this film could have had Ernest Borgnine as the godfather, Ryan O'Neill in the Michael role. Because when I think of Italian... When I think of Italian gangsters, the first one I think of is Ryan O'Neill. Yeah. Or Ernest borgnine as the as

the as the don or you know even olivier and no no uh no disparaging of olivier don't see him in the part but there's so many things that could have gone wrong is what is the sense that you get while you're holding that exactly i mean the whole thing is a miracle because it was the movie that in the beginning this uh robert evans uh and uh and peter bart were saying what are we going to do with this thing a lot of the directors that they wanted turned it down um francis ford coppola initially did not want to do it but only after george lucas said you know we do this we need the money for our studio American Zoetrope up in San Francisco. And then you can do we can do the movies we want to do.

And he said, I don't know, you know. And so Lucas, George Lucas told him, well, find something in the book you like. And so he went to the Mill Valley Library and started looking at and reading books about the mafia. And he decided in the end that the story was about a king and his three sons. And each one of the sons had something, had aspects of what made the king great. That's what pulled him in. That pulled him in. And Coppola didn't like the novel. Initially, initially, but then he found these things in it that he liked. And he took the novel to a, he took the novel every morning he would go to a coffee shop in San Francisco.

And he tore the novel apart out of its binder, out of its binding, and put holes in it and three holes in it and put it in a notebook. of its binding and put holes in it and three holes in it and put it in a notebook. And in the margins of the notebook, you can buy that notebook, the Godfather notebook, and you can see his notes where he took that novel and that novel becomes the script. So the novel really, Mario Puzo laid such groundwork for this movie. I mean, he invented this world of the Corleones and all of the key scenes and everything that happened. And then Coppola just elaborated on them and brought so much magic and energy and danger and blood and violence and everything else to it that it just became this amazing thing. Almost like an opera, which is kind of how he saw it, that it just became this amazing thing. Almost like an opera, which is kind of how he saw it, operatic.

Operatic, Shakespearean, you know, bigger than life. Mario Puzo said he had never met an honest, you know, an actual gangster. He did it all from research. And yes. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I was going to say, you mentioned a second ago that Coppola was desperate. Lucas said, well, you have to do it. You have to find something that you can attach yourself to here because we need the money. This entire project, if you go back to Puzo, is born out of desperation. Yes, because Puzo had published two novels before, and while they were critically well-received,

they weren't financially successful. He made $3,500 in advance for the first novel, and I think $3,000 for the second. And the classic story is one night he suffered a gallbladder attack and got into a taxi and directed the taxi to the VA hospital in New York. And once he arrived at the hospital, he opened the door and fell out with the pain of the gallbladder attack, and he fell into the gutter. And there, looking up at the night sky of New York, he goes, here I am, a published author, and I'm dying like a dog. And he said, that's when I decided I'm going to be rich and famous. That's such a great story. And a story that you hear from every director who goes on a talk show is saying, oh, these people were my first choice. And in the case of The Godfather, that cast was actually Coppola's first choice.

I know. He envisioned this cast, which is pretty amazing because these actors were not big stars then. They had been in films. Robert Duvall and James Caan had been in a Coppola film that he directed. But, you know, they weren't stars. Al Pacino had not been seen on screen in a film. He had shot The Panic in Needle Park, but he was primarily known as an actor on Broadway and off Broadway. And everybody said, who is Al Pacino? You know, we want to give this to a star. And of course, after Coppola envisioned this cast and brought them to San Francisco, where he filmed them in these inexpensive screen tests, which you can see online, he sent them down to the studio and they go, what is this? And they insisted that he embark upon a very expensive $400,000, I think,

casting process where they screen tested and tested and auditioned many other actors for all the other roles. And you make the point in the book that had they just listened to him in the first place, Paramount would have saved themselves almost half a mil. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there was a method to his madness. There's a mil. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And there was a method to his madness. There's a great line in the book. You quote him as saying he wanted to smell the garlic coming off the screen. Yeah, that was actually Robert Evans.

Oh, Robert Evans said that. Yeah, Robert Evans said, you know, you must smell the spaghetti. He goes, you know, we want this movie to be, you know, Italian to the core. And they wanted Italian actors for Italian roles, which in many cases they got. Al Pacino, you know, of course, James Caan was not. Marlon Brando was not. And Tom Hagen, Robert Duvall wasn't, of course. But Al Lettieri, I mean, look at him as Salazzo. Who could be better than that?

Sure. Gilbert was surprised that Al Letary, by the way, was mobbed up. That his brother-in-law was what, a capo? His brother-in-law was reputedly connected. Let's just say that. And Al Letary learned it from, you know, also Al Letary knew Marlon Brando. There was there's another book. I think it's Peter Manso's book quotes.

Someone is saying Brando learned the I could be a contender scene from Al Letary, which is quite interesting. You know, so Al Letary was around and he turned out to be an amazing actor. Quite interesting, you know. So Alateri was around, and he turned out to be an amazing actor. And I remember watching The Godfather with my mother, and there's that scene where it goes, you know, do you mind if we speak in Italian in the diner? And I remember my mother saying to me that Al Atiri sounds like he speaks Italian, but Pacino doesn't. Yeah, Al Atiri did, of course.

Of course, he spoke Italian. And I think that somebody had told me for the book that Al Pacino, when he breaks into English, that was because he kind of lost the Italian aspect for a moment, and he started speaking in English. But it worked so well for the scene, right? It works. Yeah, because then the audience can understand what they're saying without subtitles. Really, that part I thought for sure was in the script.

Yeah, no, I think that was totally not in the script. It works too because Michael is clearly of a different generation. Yes. And if anything, he's turning his back on the old world. So you buy – you completely buy that he wants to speak English in that moment. Yeah, exactly. But what I was alluding to before, too, when I misattributed that quote to Coppola, is the method to his madness is he said, Italian actors will understand what I mean culturally

because they grew up with this. I don't have time in making this movie to explain to non-Italians. Right, right. He thought by casting Italian-American actors for the Italian-American roles, they carry that and they emanate from the screen, which was so true. You know, look at Luca Brasi, you know, Lenny Montana.

Of course. And he just, you know, you look at him and you think, oh my gosh, this guy could be the unenforcer. What is the story in the back of the book, toward the end of the book, where Lenny Montana punches out Al Ruddy? Yes, that was so interesting. What was that about? That was one of the mysteries, yes. What is a mystery? That's a mystery, but he, yeah, he opens the door and there is Lenny Montana. I mean, Lenny Montana was, what, 300 and something pounds?

I don't think you want to, he was quite a fierce individual and Al Ruddy was quite thin and very tall. And then that. Yeah, that's an amazing story. Right. Speaking of the actors who were in Italian, like James Caan was a Jew from Queens. And but you explain why he's so convincing as a mobster. Yeah, he grew up in that world, Sunnyside, right? And he grew up in that world. He knew that world.

He knew some of the people in his neighborhood. And then, but the interesting thing about James Caan, first he goes out and he goes to like a thrift shop and he buys these two-tone shoes that are too tight for him. So that gives him that kind of walk, you know, that Sonny did, but he was stuck on a scene. He told me, and he said he couldn't, wasn't responding fast enough. And I think it was the scene in the olive oil factory where they're meeting with Salazzo. And he says, what do you mean that Tatalias are going to guarantee our investment? Gilbert can probably say that better than I can.

Thank you. But then and Sonny, but he but he was stuck. Then he remembers Don Rickles. You know, Don Rickles, the insult comic who talked a mile a minute and would, you know, say anything to anybody, you know. And he thought about Don Rickles and he brought that to his performance where he's just talking off the top of his head he said once he got that then he knew how to how to respond as sunny i thought that was so interesting that he brought don rickles to that to the godfather it's just something you would never imagine so with rickles comic delivery yeah that fast pace, one, one line or after another, you know, just, you know, what do you mean all over your Ivy league suit, you know,

bada bing, that was another ad lib bada bing, you know, cause he asked him, I said, how'd that, how did you come up with that? He goes, I don't know. It just was like, I'd heard something similar. Bada boom. Did I say bada boom? Did I say bada bop? He said, bada bing. It just comes out. And look, that just entered the vocabulary. Bada bing, and then it becomes a part of the Sopranos. Exactly.

We will return to Gilbert Gottfried's amazing colossal podcast after this. Gifting dad can sometimes hit the wrong note. Oh. Instead, gift the Glenlivet, the single malt whiskey that started it all, for a balanced flavor and smooth finish. Just sit back and listen to the music.

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Taking on jaw-dropping obstacles all across Canada is one thing. Working together on a team with some pretty big personalities is another. It's a new season of Canada's Ultimate Challenge, and sparks are gonna fly. New episode Sundays. Watch free on CBC Gem. Well, here's another fascinating thing from the book. I have seen the movie 200 times. Until I read your book, I don't know why Jimmy Kahn, James Kahn, is holding a cane in that scene. Andis italian american restaurant in the bronx where michael blows uh away salazzo and mccluskey yeah um after that scene he was supposed to run out of the restaurant drop the gun and then jump on a car you know the getaway car but nobody had told him what to do. And so he jumps and he missed the car and fell in the street and severely injured his ankle, I think it was. And so he had to walk with

a cane. So he had that cane in the room where Sonny says the bottom being line. And that's why Sonny has the cane. Yeah. And I've seen the movie 200 times and I'm, and I'm always wondering why the hell does he got a cane? Yeah. Why is he got the cane? Also, why did Don Corleone have a cat in the opening scene? Why has he got a cat in his arms? Well, that cat was in the old film way studio. It was just a vagabond cat that was eating the rats in the studio.

And he rambles he kind of ambles onto the set and brando picks him up and uh then the rushes come back to uh the dailies go back to los angeles they go what what the hell is this cat purring into the microphone we can't hear brando because he's mumbling and all we hear is this cat it's amazing it's great stuff and you know tell us about how pacino what what made him jump on the car in the first place well because it was part of the scene he was supposed he had been working all night and um it was he was supposed to jump on the car on the running board as the car run sped away in front of the restaurant which you see which you see in the movie but according to uh there was a assistant to coppola who wrote a diary

of of some of these of all of these events a day-by-day diary which i quote a lot in the book. And he had written that, no, Pacino had said back then that nobody, they hadn't been instructed on how to jump on the car or what to do. And so he just leapt, he leapt and he fell. And that's why he sprained his ankle and he was using a cane. And I think that's a low point in the book for Coppola because, because Brando misses the flight. Yes. Pacino injures himself. I'm trying to remember if that's the point where, where Coppola was so frustrated, he went home, took a blanket off the bed and tore it into shreds with his bare hands. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Because the first Brando misses his flight on the day of his first scene. And then this happened with Pacino. So it was one thing after another, you know, I mean,

Coppola is a young filmmaker, just turned 30, he's 31, he's 32 when the movie comes out. And all of these things were being thrown at him. This, you know, this big cast, all of these things were, things were going wrong. It was very difficult in the beginning. There were threats that he might be replaced. There was insurrection among his own crew.

There was talk of Al Pacino not being kept on until that amazing scene in the restaurant. Once they saw the scene in the restaurant. Once they saw, you know, the scene in the restaurant, there was no denying the greatness of Pacino or Coppola. And, you know, before I forget, like one of my favorite lines in The Godfather is Alateri when he says, you think too much of me, Michael. I am the hunted one.

He's so great. Yeah, that's a great scene. And the way he plays it is so good. I mean, he was great, right? Oh, yes. Fantastic actor. Well, all of those secondary parts where he cast Italians, you know, Louis Gus, even down to the smallest mobster part. You know, Louis Gus, even down to the smallest mobster part, but Richard Conti and Lettieri and the guy playing Philip Tattaglia.

I mean, they're all so wonderful. And Johnny Martino as, you know, Johnny Martino as Pauly Gatto in the beginning, you know, where he throws the sandwiches. And he said if this was anybody else's wedding, that silk purse with all the money would be gone. My own. He's great. What? De Niro was almost going to play that. Yeah. De Niro was.

They considered De Niro as Polly Gatto. And had he gotten the role, he couldn't have been in Godfather two because he would have been dead out on the and the steer with his with his head in the steering wheel out on that desolate road where the Statue of Liberty has his back to the murder scene. And as long as we're talking about that scene that lends its name to your book. Yeah. And another brilliant Italian actor is Castellano, Richard Castellano playing Clemenza, a line that he improvised. Exactly. Which I also didn't know until I read Mark Seal. Thank you so much.

So, yeah, the line is not in the novel. The line was in the script that was co-written by Francis Coppola and Mario Puzo, but they only had written Leave the Gun. But Richard Castellano remembers what his wife told him from the stoop that morning. Don't forget the cannoli, she yells out. And that was his real wife in real life. And so they go out, they do the killing. And Richard Castellano tells Rocco, the driver, you know, leave the gun.

And then he remembers what his wife told him that morning. And you know, leave the gun. And then he remembers what his wife told him that morning. And he goes, take the cannoli. And to me, that says everything about the movie, because it is a movie about guns. It's a movie about criminals. It's a movie about murder and mayhem and everything else that you see in The Godfather. But it's also about the cannoli, maybe more about the cannoli, because the cannoli represents the family, the food, and what it takes to put that food on the table. So it's about the gun, yes, but it's more about the cannoli,

and that's why the title, Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli. And that's a perfect title. I think Richard Castellano ad-libbed that line perfectly and came up with something extraordinary. And also it's how cold blooded it is. Like just such a throwaway line. Yeah. Of like, like the cannolis are more important than this guy that they killed.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, you're right. Let's get out of here. You know, leave the gun. I always wondered why they want to leave the gun. Why wouldn't they take the gun? You know, why leave the gun for evidence? It's weird.

It's weird. Now, Richard Castellano, they asked him to be in Godfather 2. Yes, and he had a lot of demands. He wanted script approval. according to some and uh that's wasn't gonna happen so you know it's a pity because he was so great i mean he was one of the great he was when you left that movie you kept thinking about him because he was as coppola writes in his notes you know he's showing Michael, he's like an uncle, your favorite uncle in the basement with popular mechanic magazines. This is what Coppola wrote in the Godfather notebook.

You know, there's popular mechanic, you know, magazines and he's in a basement like instructing, you know, his relative how to do something something except he's instructing him on how to kill a man you know you know remember that scene that scene was so endearing you just you i don't know there was something about richard castellano that yeah i remember there's also that line richard castellano is listening in on the call and he goes, why don't you tell that girl you love her? I love you with all of my heart. If I don't see you, I'm going to die. That's the best. I love that.

Yes, that's right. I think that was also. That he's making the sauce and the meatballs. Yeah. You know, you put in. That's the great thing about making the sauce. Actually, you know, I have in some of the documents that I was able to see, Richard Castellano actually writes a memo saying the specific type of sauce he wanted to use in that scene.

That's fantastic. That's fantastic. But by them not getting Richard Castellano, I heard is why they hired Michael Vigazo. Yeah, I'm not sure about that. You know, I'm not sure about what happened. But yes, because they didn't get Castellano, you know, they had to come up with someone to play his role in the younger days. So, yes. Well, there was talk, you know, and this is one thing, too, that comes through in your book is that there are so many conflicting versions of events. Yes.

You know, you could start in this book. There's Coppola's version of events. There's Robert Evans' version of events. There's Peter Bart's version of events, which is usually kind of an intermediary. Right. I's Peter Bart's version of events, which is usually kind of an intermediary. I believe Peter Bart. But you also hear conflicting stories about, well, I read something that Castellano didn't want to play the part of somebody who betrays the Corleone family. He wasn't comfortable with that part, the part that Frankie Five Angels, the character that Frankie Five Angels becomes.

But now you're telling us something entirely different, that he had demands. Yes, that's for sure. That's been pretty much documented. You know, that's been told quite a bit, that he did have demands. He wanted to have the script approval over what he said. And, you know, that's what I was told. So I think that was kind of the overriding reason. I haven't really, that's just some that's what I was told. So that I think that was kind of the overriding reason. I haven't really heard that other one that you mentioned.

Was he or was he not related to Paul Castellano? Well, OK, so some people, you know, his wife said yes, but I talked to a relative who said no. And so, you know, that's another one of conflicting stories. That's the thing, everybody has a different, you know, when you make a masterpiece, you know, there's a lot of, everybody has different visions on, versions on what happened, who did what. But you know, the great thing is it's on the screen

and you watch that movie and you don't hear all the background, but it's interesting to know, you know, all the different versions of different ideas, different takes, you know. So I tried to include them all. Oh, you got so much in there. Let me ask you a couple of. Go ahead, Gil.

Now, Brando at that point, you know, now you look at it and say, oh, the great Marlon Brando. But at that point, he was looked upon as a has-been. Yeah, he was pretty much washed up. At 47, he was so young. I love your line that he gave everybody in Tahiti, the clap. That was from Peter Biskin. Exactly.

Peter Biskin. So he was considered box office poison. His latest movies, the movies that he had done recently had flopped at the box office. He was considered temperamental. But, you know, he didn't want to do it. That's the other thing. He didn't want to play a mafia don. He goes, I'm not going to be a mafia don. But then there was something that happened. You know, Coppola, first of all, Mario Puzo saw him as the godfather from the beginning. And he wrote him a letter. He wrote him this extraordinary letter that you can see in the book. And it said the address where Mario Puzo sent the letter from was scrawled across the top.

It said North Carolina Fat Farm. And he was at Duke University Fat Farm Reducing Clinic. And he wrote, Dear Mr. Brando, I wrote a book that has had some success called The Godfather. And I believe you are the only actor who can play the godfather with the quiet intensity that the role deserves. And the studio did not want Marlon Brando, but Coppola wanted Marlon Brando so much that he almost insisted on Marlon Brando. And they said, OK, if you do a screen test of Brando and other demands, we'll consider it. So Coppola went up to the Brando home on Mulholland Drive with a small crew and they didn't tell him it was going to be a screen test. They said it was going to be a screen test. They said it was going to be a makeup test. And this is one of the, you know, great fables stories of the Godfather is that Brando comes out with a ponytail.

He's young. He's 47 in a kimono. And he right in front of the cameras, he's, you know, put some shoe polish on his upper lip. He pulls back his ponytail. He stuffs his cheeks with Kleenex. He says, I want to talk like a bulldog. And he becomes Don Corleone. And from that point on, Coppola took the tape to New York, where he showed it to Charlie Bluthorn,

who was the head of Gulf and Western Paramount's parent company. And he goes, you know, nobody deny that that brando was the godfather charlie boudhorn another great character in the book by the way hurricane charlie hurricane charlie there's also another name that has to be mentioned is the great makeup artist, Dick Smith. Yes. Not only did he make Brando, who was in his 40s, into an old man, but in The Exorcist, Max Von Cito was in his early 40s when he did that. Yeah. He was a wizard. Brando, you look at him and you think, wow, that's Brando.

Then you see the pictures before, the before and after, before the makeup and then after the makeup. He's so young. He's still, you know, 47. And one of the unsung heroes of the movie is, and I forget her name, forgive me, is Brando's personal assistant. Yes. Who? Alice Marshak. Alice Marshak, who kept pushing him. She kept pushing him. And the interesting thing is that she said they were also considering Lawrence Olivier. And Brando just wasn't interested at all until she said she told him, well, they're considering Lawrence Olivier. And he goes, Lawrence Olivier? He can't play a mafia don.

He goes, then suddenly he was interested. That's great. There were a few names. Competitive nature. I could easily imagine Rod Steiger as Don Corleone, but they said that Rod Steiger called up and wanted to be Michael. Yeah, that's right. I think that was, was that Sue Mingers called Mario Puzo. that's right. You know, I think that was, was that, uh, Sue Mingers called, uh,

Mark Cole called Mario Puzo. That's right. The agent Sue Mingers called Mario Puzo said, I can I take you to lunch and Mario Puzo, you know, he liked to have lunch, but he was, he didn't want to go to lunch with an agent. So he just said, uh, you know, I guess maybe he didn't know who Sue Mingers was. You know, she was one of the great agents, the most powerful agents in Hollywood. She goes, what about Rod Steiger for Michael? And he goes, well, I don't know. You know, Michael's pretty young. And I think Rod Steiger was in his late 40s then or maybe older. Yeah, unbelievable. Let me ask you a couple of quick questions from listeners and fans, Mark. Howard Seidman, I want to know more about the casting of Abe Vigoda. Somebody Gilbert and

I got to know fairly well. As Tessio, was he picked out at an open casting call? And how did a non-Italian do such a good job? And then we want to ask you about another person that Gilbert and I have had on this show, and that's Gianni Russo. Oh yeah. So Abe Bogota, amazing. I was able to interview Abe Bogota in his New York apartment. And he told me he went down to little Italy and studied the accents and the way people talk, the way people spoke and walked and everything, but he was not an Italian. But I think, i believe he was in a cat open casting call and uh and he just he just embodied that role of tessio so well you know uh remember the scene gilbert i know you can probably do that great too thank you again where he you know, it wasn't me.

You know, it was business. It wasn't personal. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, it just shows you what a great actor Abe Vigoda was. Because in real life, he was like a curmudgeonly old Jew. And he is so convincing in The Godfather. And, yeah, that line, tell Michael it was business. Always liked him.

A little aside for you, Mark. When Abe passed away, the family asked Gilbert to roast Abe at his service. Oh, wow. That's great. Which he did. And it got all over the place. All the papers covered it. I was roasting a pagoda.

He was a sweet man. We both got to know him a little bit. He played a lot of mob roles after that, I believe. Yeah. That's what he told me. He was such a gentleman. At the funeral, when they were wheeling the casket away, the Godfather theme came on. Oh, my gosh.

And it was just terrific. The music that Robert Evans hated. Yes. Nino Rocha. Yuck. That was such a, every time you hear that music, I mean, you just think of the, so many things about the Godfather that you just know where you are in that point in time when you hear that music come on. Yeah. And there was this yet another moment of Godfather 3 that I hated is when the guy who's supposed to be Pacino's son or something takes out a guitar and he sings the Godfather theme.

It's in the music of the Godfather theme, but different words. Wow. And yeah, it's so weird. I don't think Mark's going to write a book about the third movie. I wish someone would. I don't think that's on his agenda. But the second episode that we ever did of this show, Mark, and we're up to 400 of them, our second guest after Dick Cavett was Gianni Russo. Wow.

And so there are different accounts, too, of how he got that part. He was really a non-actor. He had some version of a variety show in Vegas. In Las Vegas, right? Yeah. But he wasn't an actor. And he let us to believe that his relationship with Frank Costello, and not just us, he's led others to believe this, if I have this right, was instrumental in getting him that part. But in your book,

you make it seem more like he just chased the part and they thought he was right. Yeah, I think it's a little bit of everything you know this is another one of the stories of the godfather i mean um you know johnny russo has given me so much of his time when i first met him for the vanity fair story he said meet me at saint patrick's cathedral and that's where we did our interview and i spent i think i spent a day with him and he's just one of the great storytellers of all. And, and what a life he's led. Right. And, and you know, the story goes is that he made a tape of himself playing all, all three roles. I think, I think Michael Sonny and, and Carlo and what, I mean, look at what he did with the role of Carlo. I mean,

you just believe him that he would sell out, you know, that, you know, in the scene of him and Sonny in that fight. And one of my favorite scenes is again, Richard Castellano, where after Michael gives, you know, says, OK, you're going to Las Vegas, you know, and he's sitting there almost trembling and they give him those airline tickets and he's like nodding his head, you know, and then they take him out to the car and Castellanos says that famous line. Hello, Carlo, you know, and then the garrity begins. It's just wonderful. It's just wonderful. And that was back in the days when Pacino could

give a subtle performance. Yes. Well, that was the whole thing about his role. And that was the thing that that they didn't know about in the beginning, because he thought the whole role was in the transition, you know, that he had to start slow because he was a college boy, you know, and he was a milit in the military. And and then, you know, you see the gradual transformation of him when he gets punched by McCluskey. And then he tells Sonny, you know, you get me a gun, you plant it somewhere, a bar, a restaurant, someplace where we can get it in. I wish Gilbert would do that scene. And then I'll kill them both. Then I'll kill them both, you know? Well, Evans was calling him the runt at this point. He was so impressed. Unimpressed. And in a way, as you say, Pacino was contributing to being underwhelming by underplaying.

Yeah, but that was his whole brilliant, the way that he wanted to play it. But then, you know, he was short, but as Al Ruddy said, when he saw him on Broadway, he looked about seven feet tall. So he was a great actor, but he just hadn't been seen on the screen before. And, you know, that reminds me again, watching the movie with my mother and

her saying he acts with his eyes. Yeah, that's right. That's what that's what I think was George Lucas, his wife. They said cast cast Pacino as Michael. You know, it's all in his eyes. And it is. I mean, he just I think think she said something like he undresses you. That's right. Exactly. You got it right. Yeah. Yeah.

And speaking of the scene, since you brought it up where Carlo fights the street brawl, it's not much of a brawl. It's really a beating between Carlo and Sonny. Khan improvised one of the weapons, the sawed off mop. That's right. The mop handle. He tells the prop master, he goes, you know, one of those sawed-off that's right the mop handle he tells the prop master he goes you know what are those uh sawed-off mop handles give me a mop handle saw it up and then he goes what do you mean what are you going to do with that it's not in the script he goes don't worry

just uh you know and then he throws it and uh you know that scene was uh that scene was pretty wild that coppola uses the take where he misses him, but according to your book, he clipped him in the back of the head in one of the takes. That's what Gianni said, yeah. So it was authentic, let's just say that for sure. Gianni told us that Khan had it out for him, that the actors, the real actors on set did not view him. They viewed him as an interloper because he said Khan broke two of his ribs. And he told us

he thinks it was intentional. Oh my gosh, yeah. He tells the story about that they met the night before in a club and that there was some kind of an altercation or disagreement, let's say. And I loved when Khan bites his hand.

Yes, that was a great, amazing, yeah, that was an amazing touch. I mean, Sonny, the character of Sonny was just, now you asked me about Carmen Caridi, that's right. Yeah, I'm sorry, what about poor Carmen Caridi? I was able to interview him for the Vanity Fair story back in 2008. And he was living in Los Angeles and he told the story that and, you know, it was widely known he was cast as Sonny. But he hadn't signed the deal yet, but he was told that he had the role. He hadn't signed the deal yet, but he was told that he had the role. And so he went out and he was, you know, in his old neighborhood and there was a parade and, you know, he was celebrating and only to have at the last minute, you know, with Al Pacino cast as Michael.

Well, Carmen Caridi was so tall. Well, Carmen Caridi was so tall, it would have been, you know, improbable to have, you know, such a tall man and such a, you know, he would tower over Al Pacino. And so they came to the decision that let's cast James Caan, who was being considered for Michael as Sonny. And then we'll have, you know, Francis Coppola's first choice of Michael to be Al Pacino. So they had to tell Carmen Caridi that he he didn't get the job. And so, you know, it was heartbroken, heartbreaking for him. And it was, you know, because he was a fine actor. He was on Broadway, I think, in Man of La Mancha at that time. And so he I'm sure he would have made a great son a great sunny but he wasn't james

khan and john james khan was a was an amazing sunny so who knows what would happen if those roles had been reversed and i i remember in my early days at catch a rising star carmine caridi was just one of those guys hanging out at the bar. Oh, really? Wow. Yeah. Yeah. No, you know, he was a great actor, but who knows what would happen now? You know, now he's gone.

So many of the great actors that were, you know, Al Martino's not here anymore. Robert Evans is gone. Oh, John Cazale. to uh so many richard castellano richard castellano so anyway so so so many of them we will return to gilbert godfrey's amazing colossal podcast but first a word from our sponsor well here Well, here's another question for you. Mark Skoback, in Robert Evans' book, The Kid Stays in the Picture, he takes full credit for making Coppola re-edit the film to make it longer. Is that accurate? And what was left out of the original cut? Now, that's one of the great battles in cinema. You know, Coppola says he was told to make it shorter. Evans says he was wanting to make it longer. So, you know, you can read the telegrams between the two, which are quite historic anding of opinions in that.

But, you know, Evans also wrote that he said, you know, you know, add more. You know, it's just like back and forth. There are so many different opinions, but this is probably the biggest one between Coppola and Evans is who said, you know, to make it. I can't imagine Coppola wanting to make it shorter, for sure. Can't imagine, can't imagine. You also print in the book, toward the end of the book, one of the wonderful inclusions in the book is these angry letters that they're firing off at each other. And did they make peace in the end? Yeah, well, Evans said that they did.

Evans said that on the 25th anniversary of The Godfather, held pointedly in San Francisco, not Los Angeles, that Coppola came up to him and hugged him and said, you know, you must have done something right. So, yeah, I think they made peace at the end. That's nice. Also, I heard like that scene at the end where's nice that's sweet so i heard like uh that scene at the end where that goes between the christening and all the murders uh wasn't coppola and it was like like an editor

who said this would work much better i heard it was going to be a whole long christening scene and then the murders went right after. Yeah, that's right. That was interesting. Yeah, I think one of the one of his editors suggested that undercutting the christening scene with those murders, which did it was so great where he blow where, you know, he kills all of his rivals all in one afternoon where they're saying, you know, Michael, do you renounce Satan and all of that? So that was amazing. And I believe the name escapes me of that great editor, but it was a film editor who was quoted about that later. Well, let me ask you about Evans because the book opens with you visiting Robert Evans' house and rather amusingly, you wind up lying in his bed.

Rather amusingly, you wind up lying in his bed. Yeah. That was so great. So what happened was I go to Evans' home, and it's 2008, and he was ready for me. You know, he had all the clippings covered, the table. They let me in. His butler let me in to the room, and Robert Evans makes this grand entrance. You know, he was known for making great entrances. His hair is slicked back. His smile's a dazzling white. He's looking out through rose-colored

glasses. And then he goes, let's go to bed. And I went, what? And he goes, his screening room had burned down. And so he and his friends would watch movies in bed. And I went, great. Okay. movies in bed. And I went, great. Okay. And so we go in and he has a screen set up to show parts of the Godfather. And so, you know, I lay, you know, sit on, I lay there and we're watching the movie. We watched all these scenes, these various scenes, and he's talking to me the whole time. And that's where he would watch movies and uh so it was just a wonderful experience he gave me so much that day as far as great quotes and stories and memories and you know he was just this amazing uh last you know they don't make robert evans was just this amazing uh you can he's one of the last sort of lions of the old studio system.

Exactly. I'm so blessed to have been able to speak with him. At one point, he took a picture off the shelf and showed it to you, and it's a bittersweet moment, or really a sad, not even bittersweet, but just sad. Exactly. He showed me a picture of him of him at the Godfather Premiere you can see the picture uh online where he uh is dancing with his wife Allie McGraw and uh you know at the premiere and uh and then uh you know he says little did he know that you know she was involved with Steve McQueen by then at for the getaway and And so it was a bittersweet moment for him to look back and talk about that. Yeah. And there's also a part in the book where you said Al Pacino and Diane Keaton went out to have dinner together.

And they were talking about, well, it's over for both of us. Yeah. What is this movie? What's going to happen to this movie? What is this all about? You know? Yeah, because it's crazy. You know, I don't think anybody had an idea at the time that they were making this classic movie that we'd be talking about 50 years later, you know?

Yeah. Because it was so unlikely. There was all these miraculous forces, a series of miracles that this movie even came together. And then to come together as it did with all of these ad libs and happenstance and, you know, spur of the moment things that happened that just added to the magic of it. It seems blessed in a way, really, because that's what you come away with when reading the book. Every time you come to a fork in the road and something could go terribly wrong, it goes right. Coppola's instincts are pretty unerring. The casting, the music, Gordon Willis,

all the choices that he made, everything that he fought for. But still, there was so much luck. So much luck. So much luck. And Puzo gets that great line. Tell us about the—he's talking to the legendary Carl Cohen on the casino floor. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it involves the actor—a story that involves this fugitive actor, David Janssen. Yeah. So I was told by the pip boss. Sorry. I was told by a pip boss in Las Vegas,

Edward Walters, that one night David Janssen came into the sands and was a bit unruly and Carl Cohen subdued him and they go, well, how'd you do it? And he goes, I made him an offer he couldn't refuse. And of course, others and then others say that that line came from Mario Puzo's mother, because Mario Puzo said a lot of the great lines he gave to Don Corleone were first spoken by his Italian American mother. I love that. His mother who sold the police club. Yeah.

Yeah. I heard that Coppola, uh, at one point he was talking to Martin Scorsese and he, uh, Martin Scorsese said his mother always loved Richard Conti and, and said he should be in the movie. Ah, yeah.

You know, that I don't know. That's a new one for me, but I can believe it. Well, you'll have to redo them. Yeah, I'm going to have to include that. Mark, what is your personal relationship to this movie? And it may be a difficult question to answer, but you saw it as a college student way back in 1972, 50 years ago. Incredible. I know. And you couldn't have imagined sitting in that theater that it would become such a part of your career.

And let's point out to people that your relationship and your work on this did not begin with this book. As you said, it began with a Vanity Fair article years ago. And you did talk to all of the principal players. Right. What is your personal feeling about this film in terms of why it's so beloved and why it's the kind of movie you cannot turn off when you stumble across it? Yeah. Well, there's two things. First, I'll tell you, I was a college freshman, 19 years old on spring break. And I visited my mom in Memphis, Tennessee, and I went into a theater, I always say as a kid, and I came out three hours later as an adult. I had seen a world that I had never experienced before on film.

And it just like floored me. And I think there's two reasons why it endures. First of all, it's a period piece. Coppola insisted that it be filmed as a period piece in the 1940s setting as Mario Puzo had written it in his novel. And so that gives the film this timeless feel. It's as fresh today as it was 50 years ago because it was a period piece then. So that gives it this patina that doesn't diminish with age. And the other thing that makes it endure is that it's a story not just about gangsters or criminals and blood and gore and all of that, which is certainly about, but it's also about

family. And the family aspect is what gives it its heart and soul. And so I think those are the two things that make the Godfather endure 50 years and forever. Yeah. And if I may add one thing that you point out in the book, that people feel a certain powerlessness and this fantasy, this fulfillment fantasy of there's a man who could make things right in the world. Yes. There's a man that can take care, especially in the 1970s, you know, when the, when the America was in upheaval, you know, Watergate was ahead and, you know, Vietnam war was, was, was raging. I mean, you know, the, or, or coming to a head and, and then there was a man that you could go to who could take care of things. You know, it's like the new American Western. That's what the film scholar,

a film scholar um uh a film scholar said um and that puso had created this world um and it's like you know where they're gunslingers but a lot of times the people that they're gunslinging against deserved what they got so you you know what's odd is like that scene i did at the beginning of the show where he talks about his daughter uh getting bonus bonus sarah yeah and i every time i watch that i'm kind of waiting for the scene of them actually uh catching up with those guys yeah you know that was written in the book uh in the novel there's quite a bit of that scene where they do catch up with them and they and what happens uh

but and then you know i don't know if you needed it in the not in the movie because you kind of can imagine what happened uh without seeing it you know what's interesting mark i'm sure you've seen the godfather saga where they reassembled theled the longer version and they put Coppola's cuts back in. And there's the scene where Fabrizio's car blows up. Michael gets revenge against the bodyguard that betrayed him. There's a more extensive scene at Jack Waltz's house where you see the girl, one of the actresses, who he's getting strung out on heroin and all of this crazy stuff. And you come away thinking Coppola made the right decisions the first time. I do too, because it's so economical and it just has a movement and it just moves so

fast. Yeah. We got to thank you for writing this book, my friend. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your kind words. Oh, tell us, give us some plugs. I mean, where can people, you got a website? Yeah, I have a website. It's www.mark-seal.com. And you can, you know, I'm on Instagram and social media. And of course you can buy the know, I'm on Instagram and social media. And of course you can buy the book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Somebody, somebody needs to make a film, a documentary based on your book. Thank you. Yes.

I really appreciate that. And, uh, I'm so glad you liked the book. I loved it. And now friends will eat it up. That just reminds me, uh, Al Ruddy's car got shot up. Yes, that's right. It's also crazy. And he took to wearing a disguise at one point, didn't he? Yeah, that's right. Al Ruddy's assistant, Betty McCart, I was able to interview her as well. And she said they traded cars because they were getting all these threats and so they

thought they would trade cars and so she took al ruddy's sports car up to her home on mulholland one night and in the middle of the night she heard gunshots and went out the next morning and the windshield had been blasted out and in place of the windshield was a note saying somebody didn't want the movie made insane and then somebody makes that threatening call to evans that's right it was sherry netherland hotel where he craziness yeah absolute craziness i mean it you you you do make the case that the uh the making of the film is as dramatic as the as the film itself but uh how busy have you been today on this day where it's the actual 50th anniversary of the first time?

Yeah, today's the big day. Yeah, can you imagine? Yeah, I've been pretty busy. So today's the day. 50 years ago, right now, just about. Those limos were coming up to the Lowe's State Theater in New York and depositing all these stars in the rain. Yeah.

And that's when it all began. And they thought they had a flop on their hands because the audience didn't applaud. That's right. Once it was over after three hours, it was just stunned silence. Nobody said a word. And Robert Evans wrote, you know, it's a bomb, you know.

But they later realized that it was people couldn't, they were stunned, speechless. They later realized that it was people couldn't they were stunned, speechless. And that people that experience went across around the world. People were stunned beyond words by this movie. Thanks for telling your story. Thanks for you know, we know today's been a crazy day for you. Thanks for squeezing us in.

Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time and great words. And lastly, much bothering you, Pop. I told you I could handle it. I'll handle it. I never wanted this kind of life for you. I always thought when it was your turn, you'd be the one to pull the strings. Senator Corleone. Governor Corleone.

We'll get there, Pop. We'll get there. Written by the great Robert Towne. That's great. So this has been Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast with my co-host Frank Santopadre. And we've been talking to the author of Watch Me Fuck Up the Ten— Leave the Gun, Take the Cannoli, the very talented Mark Seale.

And to all our listeners who love The Godfather, you will love this book. Get it post-haste. It's a wonderful ride. Thank you, Mark. Thank you. Okay, thank you.优优独播剧场——YoYo Television Series Exclusive © transcript Emily Beynon