Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 43 - The Turncloak ADWD

Episode Date: March 15, 2019

Theon Greyjoy is snowed in with the Northern Faction, and he "enjoys" the company of Barbrey Dustin. Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/  Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com 

Hello and welcome to Girls Dark Channel, episode 43, The Turn Cloak, A Dance with Dragons. I'm one of your hosts, Chloe. You can find me on the internet as LiesInArbor on Twitter, Tumblr, and LiesInArborGold.com is my blog. Oh, and I'm Eliana, another one of your hosts. You might know me as GlassTableGirl on the AsangaViceAndFire subreddit, or maybe on the Maester Monthly Podcast. But you also might know me as Arithmetric on Twitter, where I'm having like an emotional breakdown.

Oh my god. Why are you having an emotional breakdown, Eliana? Well, the Asanga Madness by Davos Fingers has started taking its toll. Oh my god. Yes. We've had a very rough week if you guys are not on twitter you should be uh twitter is unfortunately where we spend a lot of our free time which is

very little free time it's not even our free time we're just there and i'm like i should be working yeah i don't remember what it is but my partner the other day said something along the lines of like like oh yeah i understand because you're used to be online instead of in real life but i'm like wait a second what does that mean either that or work i'm always just those two places you know i'm at work a lot uh this week has been crazy devil's fingers does a march madness bracket every year they're a great podcast you can find them on podbean it's scatty s-c-a-d-d-y dot podbean.com uh they're on a bunch of other networks or on itunes or on everything just look up davos fingers good buddies of ours they do a march madness bracket it's called a song of madness yes it's truly madness and what they do is is they pit various A Song of Ice and Fire characters against one another.

And they run Twitter polls. And the people must vote on a character. Now, there is no criteria for voting. All right? It's whatever you want it to be. You just pick something and it's whatever maybe your heart tells you. Whatever you want it to be. You just pick something and it's whatever maybe your heart tells you.

User B-Word on Twitter, who also does a bunch of those fun A Song of Ice and Fire riddles, has been using the criteria of who she thinks would be the best kisser. And I don't know, I just... Joe Buckley, one of our good buddies over at Isle of Faces, he has been doing who Would Be Better at Building Ikea Furniture with you. And that is outrageous. That was, I don't remember which one I read today, but I burst

out laughing. Like, coffee out of my nose. Just, like, straight up. Was it the Corrin Halfhand and Tormund one? Yeah, it was the Corrin Halfhand and Tormund one. But there's, this is gonna, they're doing a longer bracket this year, it was the core and half-handed torment. But they're doing a longer bracket this year, it sounds like, and

I want them to do a loser's bracket because we've had some pretty crazy upsets in the first week alone. We did have some really good wins, but just like in A Song by Some Fire, the big wins are followed by... What is it followed by, Aliana? Is it followed by... Betrayal. Betray by? Betrayal.

Betrayal. Betrayal. Belwas, Azor Ahai, the prince that was promised ornament, salt, and smoke under a bleeding star. Lost to Jojen. Yep, he was knocked out in the

first round. There were points in time where Belwas was ahead, but... It was a tough battle. You know, just as in the books, Belwas deserved better. Belwas did deserve better. He did. One that was a big upset to some, not to either of us, our political allegiance lies very obviously, was with Nimble Dick,ble dick crab who won against braun and this is a a

song of madness historical moment you guys almost this is last year's historical moment was when sansa beat stannis which is coming again uh and it's gonna happen again oh it's in the it's in the bracket already it's set up well it's gonna happen because if you's in the it's in the bracket already it's set up well it's gonna happen because if you look it's it's sansa versus maya stone sansa either loses to maya stone or wins and then stannis is going to take on either robert or melisandre so the way it's diverging means that there's another lemon poppy matchup coming up pretty soon wait which robert baratheon baratheian that's fascinating i mean that would be the first time in his life he might overshadow his brother you know

yeah stannis might overshadow his brother from i don't think it's gonna happen but he might i don't know i don't know it's a song of madness anything could happen apparently some crazy quake beat joffrey and it's like yeah i hate joffrey too but come on he's not you know an astral projection or some shit i don't know what she is no one knows we'll never know is she malora is she ashara is she lamor is she malaria we don't know but nimble dick won the first round that's what i know and you know maybe he'll win the second one and the third one and the one after that. You know, I've heard that if he takes it

to the top, Radio Westeros is doing a special episode with surprise guests. Solely about Nimble Dick Crab. Yeah, Nimble Dick Crab. The man, the legend, the myth. Yeah, and of course the bracket. Yeah, I mean, the crabs, they were kings once, you know?

They were kings. They were. Well, I guess we'll have to see what happens there. If you guys vote Girls Gone Cannon, you'll vote Nimble Dick straight to the top. Ride that baby up to the top. Yeah, ride that dick. Ride that dick to the top. So let me just leave our podcast

on explicit. Every single episode, parental advisory. Your parents probably don't want to listen to this. They'd be bored shitless. They'd be like, what are these girls talking about? We did get an email from a friend, a buddy named

Sam, who has been loving the Theon and Reek episodes so much. Theon's one of their favorite point of views because of the darkness and for good archers and fantasy. And they wanted to comment on some parallels we drew with Theon missing his fingers and Jon with his injured hand. They thought of Davos because both

Davos and Theon feel the absence of their digits and both men lost them as punishments. And how both guys internalize the justice done to them for their crimes ramsey's pure evil and takes it way farther than stanis and that both theon and davos have fingers removed by their current leaders and end up following them while fighting identity issues right like theon with his stark gray joy reek problem davos with his low-born up-jumped Hand of the King dynamic.

Yes, we talked about this actually a little bit in episode 41, Reek 2 and 3, during that passage about Reek's seven leftover fingers. Reek knew the cost. Seven, he thought. Seven fingers. A man can make do with seven fingers. Seven is a sacred number. He remembered how much it had hurt when lord ramsey had commanded skinner to lay his ring finger bare and there's definitely a passage off the top of my head i can't remember it word for word vernacular but davos thinks of course of when stannis had chopped those fingers off in the pain at some point and of course we talked about lady donella being you know the next

parallel for reek there of being forced to eat her own fingers in a tower but davos has such great parallels here especially with the seven and with regarding stannis as his god in a way and how reek is forced to worship ramsey as his god whether he wants to or not for survival. Yeah. And finally, gonna end on a slightly positive note, but also maybe with promises for future content. It was user

Pabagad3e537h on Pod bean commented. Just listened. Love your cast. Just wanted to say that Chloe, your Dagmer voice reminds me of a Hallmark Christmas movie, Christmas at Cartwright's where Alicia Witt is pretending to be Santa. Your Dagmer voice sounds like her Santa voice.

Okay. So I love the Santa emoji that came with this comment that was probably my favorite part i was like look at him and but also i tried i went on youtube after we got this comment and i tried to like find the clip i like went for like basic terms like alicia witt santa voice alicia witt santa cartwrights alicia witt cartwrights you know i did all the whatever and it didn't happen didn't work and then i found the movie and so like i was slowly like scrolling through with it on like low quality so i could like see scenes and see if i could find the scene where she's pretending to be santa

i couldn't find it and then i gave up so i haven't seen it yet eliana and i have plans though find it and then i gave up so i haven't seen it yet eliana and i have plans though yeah we're hoping you know maybe we can get together and we'll watch this hallmark video movie together if we can find it um sounds like you probably get drunk well we'll figure it out you know it's not that i wouldn't watch a hallmark movie like trust me lifetime movies hallmark movies i would i will emotionally commit but i i just don't have the time to emotionally commit right now you know so some other time i don't know if this is like yeah this sounds like a christmas movie and it's not the season like i'm not gonna act like i didn't watch what christmas prince and i didn't watch christmas prince 2 yet but i watched the

other one where the girl's like into baking right and then the other one where she's into photography i watched both of these these hot this holiday season um these are netflix movies but they're in many ways similar to the hallmark christmas movie model so yeah and i mean sometimes you just need something to do so we'll get there someday we will come back to this and we will discuss you in your comment yeah that is our that's our next series, you know? No, it's not. Wait, what? Are you insinuating that there's another series, Eliana?

I don't know. That sounds pretty series-ist, you know? That's a little series-ist. Yes. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if... And of course, these are the Reek chapters, and they are very difficult and sensitive,

so if you do not want to listen to subject matter pertaining to assault or abuse, sexual assault, abuse, emotional, feel free to turn off the episode now, and we'll see you another time. Yeah, go back to, like,

Sons of Chew in a Game of Thrones. Yes. Happier-ish times. So, jumping into what we missed in our lightning round, you guys, in The Watcher, the Dornish entertain Ser Balon Swan and cover up

Arianne's tracks at Queenmaking. Doran makes plans for the Sand Snakes and Arianne, sending Myrcella to the capital with Nymeria. Jon fears for the Wildlings making their way to Hardhome. Tyrion 9. The Selassori Coran crashes

with Tyrion and other survivors hanging on for 19 days of life. A ship comes to save them, but it's a slaving barge. And that, of course, brings us to the turncloak. The North has claimed three frays, and Stannis' march is being

delayed by weather. Just like Philadelphia, by two hours when it snows. Is it still, like, snowing there? Like, it's starting to become springtime here. No, it was very spring today. Last week, it kind of snowed and, like, literally schools were delayed for two hours. But snow is coming down on Winterfell, and Roose Bolton is giving yet another one of his charismatic speeches to his men.

He uses the old gods in this speech to rally the northern men behind him against Stannis, saying that they won't suffer the heretic. northern men behind him against Stannis, saying that they won't suffer the heretic. And I think it's just kind of fascinating how Roose seems like he's actually very religious and superstitious and how here he's invoking those old gods and getting the Northmen on his side and using the old gods as a form of legitimacy for them against Stannis, when it seems to me like the old gods, like, for example, Bran Stark and friends are actually not supporting the Bolton regime, you know, them kind of being the old gods now, and might be more like inclined to support Stannis or there's something going on there. We're gonna get that get there later on. Yeah, and religion and politics in general play this very heavy role in George's writing.

And this is very Roos the politician. It reminds me of people in modern day politics, everyday politics that we experience, how they evoke religion, look at like Planned Parenthood and defunding it. And, you know, just all this autonomy being taken away from people and women. Just all this autonomy being taken away from people and women. And that's kind of that same idea of all these big speeches from politicians where they're using religion to get something done. Yeah, it's a sort of power. The room roars with approval and Thea notes that the room may look burnt, but they do have enough shelter, firewood, and food to last them half a year. And I mean, Stannis can't say that, which true, Stannis cannot say that.

The Freys and Theon don't join, though, with the roaring approval. They are strangers here as well, we thought, watching Aenys Frey and his half-brother, Sir Hastin. Born and bred in the Riverlands, the Freys had never seen a snow like this. The North has already claimed three of their blood, Theon thought, recalling the men Ramsay had searched for fruitlessly, lost between White Harbor and Barrowton. Aenys. Aenys.

The best pronunciation. Yeah, I think I read a poll once I was like how do you pronounce this name Yeah you did I chose anus Just for fun For funsies Anus You do want to say like a fray though

It's kind of like anus This one's one of them Fuck a fray stout man well i mean if we had done that you know everything might have turned out differently think about it think about it stout manderly and umber are all eating and chatting and they're getting ready for this battle whenever the fuck it happens and theon's waiting for his porridge but because you know he is the turn cloak nobody gives him any extra honey or milk to sweeten his porridge as they have given the other knights his reign as prince of winterfell had been a brief one he had played his part in the mummer's show giving the feigned aria to be wed

and now he was of no further use to ruse bolton and men in line in front of him are discussing how it's like their first winter and they're just like oh like wow snow yeah they're all talking about like when they were kids the the last winter they remember i mean a lot of these guys and we'll get to this passage in a bit, are, you know, younger. They're late teens in their 20s. They're young men. You know, this is their first time of tasting glory for Winterfell. This is what's left as well. The seasoned warriors and everyone else left in the last couple of years to go with Rob and didn't come back.

So this is their first taste of battle and glory of anyone that's left. Everyone else is kind of also craven. You look at like Karstark and some of the people that are there. Most of these men haven't seen a winter in at least nine years, if they have seen a crazy winter. The last winter was right before Robert's Rebellion. The tourney of Harrenhal was the fall spring. It was called the fall spring because it snowed on the last day full stop for a fortnight returning full swing after that and then it was summer by the time denarius was born in 284 10 years before that tyrian was born in the middle of like an awful cruel winter so you know like to

sum it up it's like buffalo new york you know lake effect yeah the lake effect yeah yeah i mean they're very much the that idea of like these are those summer soldiers i think catelyn thinks of how a lot of these kinds of men are just like not ready for war and they're definitely not ready for war in winter right no i'm not ready for war and i'm not ready for war in winter like 10 times worse than that like that's yeah i'm not even ready for winter once a year yeah like let's start there i'm not ready for winter either and i don't think it even happened this year it like it did i mean i felt like it did and that was enough for me you know i couldn't do what these people are doing but at the same time time, Theon's like, we're fucked.

He's thinking back to the previous night when he couldn't sleep, and he had been thinking of escaping, as he does, for obvious reasons. He knew, though, that he would get caught. And even if he did escape, he's like, I have nowhere to go. Winterfell is the closest thing that had been a home to him. His family on the Iron Islands probably doesn't want him back at the moment and he thinks a ruined man a ruined castle this is my place it's crazy to peek at these lines in a dance with dragons because some of these lines are straight up sans quotes from feast and storm but in theon's chapters and in his worldview. You get that line in A Storm of Swords.

All color had fled the world outside. It was a place of whites and blacks and grays, white towers and white snows and white statues, black shadows and black trees, the dark gray sky above. A pure world, Sansa thought. I do not belong here. George does this great job, especially with weather and writing out this prose and setting the scene and just world building of what all these buildings look like and towers when they're covered in snow it's just a really beautiful and sad bit of passages and chapters all of theon it's uh it's very laden with those images yeah he's doing a great job of you know that showing and not telling and we see a lot of those echoes of what of how snow acts in the storylines of these captives of theon and sanza in these chapters and for both of them you know they're

seeing snow as this idea of like innocence but also purity but hiding ugliness underneath and this idea of like maliciousness it's both of those opposing ideas at once and we're gonna go into more depth on that later on in this episode first we're gonna snap back to theon waiting for porridge and ramsay enters the room and he's like shouting for the singers to play for him. I'm here, entertain me. And they play a fun little cover of the Dornishman's Wife. They remixed it and now it's the Northman's Wife. Theon always has this element of music that Sansa's chapters also have. By day and night, they all wished for silence, right?

And Abel, of course, is the singer figure that's rescuing Ian and Arya that Sansa never had. There's also the obvious nods to fake songs and fake people with Abel being a play on Bail the Bard, but also being Mance and fake Arya being a Blue Rose, but actually being Jane Poole with the blue plate. And of course, this is all a huge play on Lyanna andegar by George

and in turn Jon Snow, but I digress. We're getting off topic. I mean, like, Mance is kind of thinking it, but not with Liana and Rhaegar. Mance is like, oh, I was born to play this role. This is the concert I've always wanted to do. He's so excited. But Theon over

here is surprised, actually, that, like, this is a pretty bold song and thankfully though ramsey seems to be getting a laugh out of the song instead of wanting to like flay the guy for singing it right joffrey is fuck as well right very reminiscent while ramsey doesn't mutilate the singer his whole court holds their breath until ramsey laughs they're waiting for that moment when they know it's okay to laugh and that's very much what we as the audience experience in those sansa chapters we we get that holding your breath until the coast is clear that's true and it's kind of fascinating to me that ramsey actually likes the song and that it goes this

way because i'm thinking of a different time and another story that maybe you and I have read once together, Chloe, where there's someone else who's putting kind of coercive messages into their performances. By that I mean Tanzil Too Tall. Don't be mad at

Tanzil Too Tall. I'm not mad. She has a liberal arts degree. Leave her alone. Freedom of the press, you know, but like I was just surprised. Freedom of the press! I was just surprised. I'm not that. She has a liberal arts degree. Leave her alone. Freedom of the press, you know, but like, I was just surprised. Freedom of the press. I was just surprised. I was like, Tanzil Tutal, that is a bold ass play you were putting on here. What is this? And I'm apparently Aryan Brightflame thought the same. But you know, whereas I'm just like, raising my eyebrows, Aryan Brightflame's like, we're gonna, we're gonna kill her. We're gonna beat her.

And I was like, whoa, chill out, bro. But you know it's totally because he's a jock and she said no to him and she's the artsy weird girl that's also brown. Oh, true. That's part of it. I'm just saying. Yeah. She probably played Viola. Explain to me then, is this how Tyrion thinks of Simon Silvertongue?

Yeah. Yeah, obvious reasons. With Simon Silvertongue? Yeah, yeah, obvious reasons. With Simon Silvertongue, did he rebuff Tyrion's advances? That's an alternate universe ship that we could make just to

ruin people's lives anyways. So Arya is not here to join in on this audience participation laughter she's been in her tower since the wedding we hear Ramsay decided to

make Theon Arya's handmaiden or at least her bath maid which was really just to embarrass him in front of the court so whenever Ramsay had an itch to bed his wife it fell to Theon to borrow some serving women from Lady Waldar, Lady Dustin, and fetch hot water from the kitchens.

Though Arya never spoke to any of them, they could not fail to see her bruises. It is her own fault she has not pleased him. Just be Arya, he told the girl once as he helped her into the water. Lord Ramsay does not want to hurt you. He only hurts us when we forget. He never cut me without cause. I mean, I guess that's a take. That's yikes.

That's the easy way, Theon. Yeah. that's the easy way Theon yeah Reek thinks about how Theon would have saved Jane but Reek cannot and when Ramsey is sick of his current plaything, Jane he would return to Reek remove more fingers or toes, take his hands

and feet Reek prays that he just gets to keep hanging out with the dogs, he's like I really hope I can just go back to the dogs at this point i mean yes that is also a mood wanting to just hang out with dogs but like theon this whole thing is like kind of cowardly again like he thinks that he wants to help jane in a way but also he's like oh but it's your fault that you're being hurt and part of it is that indoctrination that theon has experienced from his abuse but of course another part of it is like ramsey keeps taking his pleasure jane and then that

means that reek is spared from all of that and i I think that there's kind of like, that hope that maybe if Ramsay's distracted, that he won't notice me is what Reek is thinking. And it kind of reminds me of that spoilers line in the Forsaken chapter when Euron asks Euron, he's like, when I used to come into your room, were you praying that I would come to you or come to Yuri? Because he's wondering, are you praying that you were taking the abuse instead of Yuri? Or were you hoping that Yuri was getting it instead of you? I was like, damn. Serious shit.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. He takes his great rule to the back of the hall out of the torchlight. After a third spoonful, he quits eating it. He observes men discussing the storm, watching them hover over brassieres when a voice comes out behind him. Beyond gray joy. It's one of the washerwomen Abel brought who tries to convince him to dance and then, you know, maybe sex.

He asks her to go away and she tries to offer him one of her sisters instead. She even offers him a song written by Abel of his capture of Winterfell and how he was theon the clever, but he thinks of himself more as theon the turncoat and says it was madness. Glorious madness. Stannis has 5,000, they say, but Abble claims ten times, as many still could not breach these walls. So how did you get in, my lord? Did you have some secret way? I had ropes, Theon thought. I had grapnels. I had darkness on my side, and surprise.

The castle was but lightly held, and I took them unawares. But he said none of that. If Able made a song about him like it's not ramsey would prick his eardrums to make certain he never heard it i'm just sure i had the idea of my eardrums being pricked how yeah you can see the indoctrination in this line though as theon thinks that like this is another ploy like the one with kyra he just keeps coming back to that that that whole thing is like a ghost i'm having a great time with that. That's haunting all of these chapters and frightens Theon from taking any action. And it's taught him how to not be a hero. Because when you do, bad things happen.

But turns out Rowan has a different ulterior motive here, which is not turning him into Ramsay. But it's obviously just like because we all know right that abel is mance and that the washer women are wildling women and she is fishing for information about how they can take winterfell or how they can like get in and out with quote unquote aria i love that mance like is just like this little cult leader on the other side of the wall usually you know like he's just surrounded by like little spear wives who are like yeah i'll sell my pussy for your whole thing man it's like i'm ready let's get in there let's break this let's bust this joint let's go they're like yeah riding their dresses up playing lutes and shit what is that whoa how did what makes you think that they're

fans chloe i mean they are the band members like all right one of them's out here she's on she's on bass the others plays drums none of them play viola though it's it's the it's the inverse you know usually you'll have like bands where i guess a lot of the instrument players are men and then you're like frontman or singer as a woman it's that but gender swapped yeah mance is the singer and the girls in the band i like it i like it yeah so rowan tells him he can trust her because abel does and then she introduces herself she tells him that her name is rowan and i want to talk a little bit about the rowan tree the etymology some of the mythology behind it rowan trees in european mythology are talked about as wayfarers trees or travelers trees and they're supposed to prevent those on a journey from getting lost the leaves look like eagle feathers when they grow and they stain red from its berries

which is kind of set in greek mythology to be a story about hebe hebe is the goddess of youth she's known to kind of have a goblet she carries it dispenses a rejuvenating reviving ambrosia she gives to the gods to keep them healthy and young she loses this cup to the demons and the gods help her get it back by sending an eagle to fight to get it back and that's why the leaves look like they do they look like eagle feathers and the berries stain them with dripping blood so really interesting especially because she's here almost offering theon this out if he really tried to engage he might have gone further and realized like oh this is all a ploy you know he could have figured it out this night but he is between these two dualities with Ramsay and Ramsay's torture

and he's lost he's lost on his journey he's in between and Rowan's here to try to give him you know that traveler's tree that wayfarer's tree that guide that journey so it's just a really interesting choice on George's part to give this character this name and definitely he thinks about the etymology even of these small characters just a little bit and it's an interesting name yeah and I mean even if Theon doesn't take it now she definitely plays a role in all of that in whisking them away and helping them travel out later on because this is a reread and we all know what happens um leap to faith leap to faith theon slips back into being reek and then he thinks again like this is a play by

ramsey and then he thinks he wanted to hit her to smash that mocking smile off her face he wanted to kiss her to fuck her right there on the table and make her cry his name but he knew he dared not touch her in anger or in lust reek reek my name is reek I must not forget my name he jerked to his feet and made his way wordlessly to the doors limping on his maimed feet. It's intense. The dualities really begin to fight in this. Theon is in there, as we've kind of been saying. Like, you can see it. He's there.

His sister Arya talk with Rowan probably helped him bring this out. You can see him fighting between himself, which kind of reminds me of an album by my favorite band. They're called brand new they've ruined my life because lead singer's awful but they have some good music and one of the albums is called the devil and god are raging inside me uh and i think that's very much what's happening here theon has that devil and god raging inside him ramsey is this one half of him right now one half right and the other half of him is

broken him. It's reek. It's beyond trying to escape it. Ramsey's eating at him. Ew. Nom nom nom nom nom. Is that why he flays? Is that what he does with the flayed skin? More like a souffle.

Oh my god. So I'm going to quickly go on a tangent. It is related to Song of Ice and Fire. So this gray area, who has a YouTube channel and has a lot of really fantastic videos on Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones, you should definitely check her out. I was talking about a brunch that is Game of Thrones themed, and I looked at the menu, and some of the food sounds really good, but I was like, wow, one of them was called Theon Sausage, and I was like, wow, that's bold. Someone at Dragon Con actually had that. There was a vendor that had Theon Sausage as a meal.

I was like, put it back. Wow. I mean, on one hand, clap, clap, clap. But on the other hand, I'm just like, oh, damn. Serious meal. Not very appetizing, you know? Not for me. Snow is falling in the yard. And the Rizzle Boys and Barreton boys are fighting each other with snowballs.

And the squires build snowmen on the ramparts. And they're equipping them with spears and shields. And then one of the sentries begins to speak to Theon. Then he realizes who it is. And he's like, oh, fuck you. And then spits. He doesn't say fuck you. But, you know.

He basically says fuck you. He's like, Theon, turn close. He's like, oh, you can't sit with us. Yeah, at first he's like just chilling. And he's like, oh, that can't sit with us. Yeah, at first he's like just chilling and he's like, that was a kid this winter. Ah, fuck you, bitch. That's it. That was the guy's voice.

Pretty much. Thank you. I just did that. I committed to the bit. Maybe that's in the Hallmark movie too. That's a callback. Full circle. So the snow falling in the yard and that snowball

fight with the Rizwell boys and the Barotin boys very much so just reminds me of of course the snowball fights in a song of ice and fire symbolizing innocence right you get the Sansa quote of all of them having a snow fight in the yard and her

and Arya Arya taking her down and putting snow fight in the yard. And her and Arya. Arya taking her down and putting snow in her hair. And then her back and forth with Arya. It reminds you of that. It reminds you of Theon thinking of Rob. And of course Jon and Rob. Jon thinking of Rob. And just snow symbolizes this.

And then Sam. Yeah, Sam. With the snow in their hair. Yes. It's just snow falling and snowball fights. Always better times, golden era, you know, just sweet innocence and growing of age and that beautiful, sweet memory. And before it's, you know, horrible and everything's awful and Ned's dead. And this passage with the Barrowton-Riswell boys fighting, especially before Theon speaks of Barbary. It portrays that innocence again in

light of Theon's internal battle. Finding himself, it kind of also is hopeful. It's like, like, there's a better place. Look at these kids playing a snowball fight right there, Theon. You could be there someday. You could have a snowball fight, buddy. Yeah, there's there's a lot of duality in the way Snow is acting in this chapter. And of course, you know, our villain is named Ramsey Snow, so I don't know. But also, so is our hero, Jon Snow. Snow,

what's it mean? End the play on legitimization. Yep. The island walks past the stables, which were once burned by Ramsey, but now they have been rebuilt. They are now twice as large. Thank you, Bolton regime.

Thank you, Roost Bolton, for rebuilding the Warhorses. Wow, what a great regime. You know what? Vote Bolton. Rebuilt that Warhorse area. Yeah, they are building houses for the horses. House the horses. House the horses.

House the horses. Vote Roost. horses. House the horses. House the horses. House the horses. Boat roofs. And yeah, so it's housing all the horses of his bannermen, which is, that's a platform. Vion goes further into the ruined castle, and then he stops in front of a room that used to be his room.

And then he goes, he's just going on this whole tour by himself past the ruins of Micken's Forge and catlin sapped and then later he passes by rickard riswell making out with one of the washer women i mean that's that's his youth right that was him that's all of him just slipping away in front of him he's watching rickard riswell make out with one of the washer women and beyond's not that man anymore he's reek he's no one he's not a lord you know he's notek. He's no one. He's not a lord.

You know, he's not even a ward of the north. He's just reek. Yeah, he's coming back to Winterfell as a changed person and saying goodbye to all these things from his youth. And this idea you were talking about earlier with Theon seeing that innocence of the boys playing with the snowballs and comparing that with Sansa, it's making me think of like Sansa. Pity them, Sansa envy them. Yes, that's exactly it.

Oh my god, you read my mind. I got you. I'm in your brains, reading your brain quotes. We've been so synced up today. We've been at it. It's not over yet, either. It's not over, everyone. It ain't over till the Lady Barbary sings.

Or something. Or something. No one had given him freedom of the castle but no one had denied it to him either he could go where he would within the walls and again again because this is what we're doing right now it reminds me of how sansa was given kind of rain you know wandering the red keep but she's like i can't really go anywhere but i can kind of go anywhere i want here i guess yeah like when she's allowed to go riding on her pony but around in a circle like that's it that's so sad like that just like pathetic kind of sad you know yeah we learn about winterfell's architecture again its

outer wall is newer with octagonal towers and outside the snow is turning everything white. The snows were covering all of them beneath a pale, soft mantle, burying the remnants of the winter town, hiding the blackened walls Ramsey's men had left behind when they put the houses to torch. The wounds snow made, snow conceals, but that was wrong. Ramsey was a Bolton now, not a snow, never a snow. Yeah, and as you were saying, this is that other side of the snow because it's not just innocence in bringing purity and absolution it is also death and it hides the ugliness and it's all that ugliness is still there underneath and theon seeing the snow now from the perspective of what it's bringing him much older i think that it's interesting because you have again like the language of weather carrying a lot of the emotional weight of the story.

And of course, many of us who grew up in the Western world or in areas where there are multiple seasons that are markedly different from one another do associate those early snows with childhood with like freedom that innocence playing with one another as as you were saying those snowball fights but then we also have those sayings of like the winter of um the winter of like i don't know our discontent which is a book by steindek but not really that but you know the winter that comes with the old age that's the worst of the steindek books i'm sorry opinions opinions um steinbeck's my favorite author and i did not like that book i love oh you have to you have to be real about your favorite authors they criticize mine all the time good for you no one's perfect no it was a weak book and east of eden is a masterpiece i love it so much eden is a masterpiece okay but this book

which is also an amazing book Not as good as Beast for Crows, shout out A Dance of Dragons The difference between the winters of childhood And that fun and innocence And the winters that come with old age When the world is cold and all your friends are dying and shit Because you're old

But Theon feels old on the inside And then he looks out beyond the hills of snow And thinks about how Stannishing is out there somewhere and in my notes i mean we're not really gonna sing this okay we could if you want nope nope we're going along okay and what you said does remind me of i mean we even get this in dance with, you know, Big Bucket Wool, Big Booty Wool, and his, you know. Big Booty Wool! Remember I changed Jeff's screen name to that? Yes. Time to be alive.

Anyways, Heist and FireCon, hashtag represent. Big Booty Wool even says, you know, like, this is probably my last winter, you know, like, let me bathe in golden blood. If that's how I go out, if I go out just like murdering Boltons, fine. Sounds good to me because old Nan said,

this is when men go out into the 10 feet of snow because they know that they will just eat too much and their family won't survive. Their family needs food. So they just were like, I'm going to go hunt to get us food. And they're like, dad, there's 20 feet of snow. Why would you do this? He's like, no, no, dad's tough. I'll be be back and then they just go out there and like die on purpose so that like you know their family survives like that's what this winter is about to be this is the winter

so it's crazy to think about like just this whole battle that's gonna take place uh then stannis is out there. He is. He's probably freezing. You know, we know from what we've read, he's kind of low on some stores, right? He'd have a difficult time taking Winterfell, which Theon achieved only because of stealth and because of prior knowledge.

Stannis doesn't have this advantage. Theon thinks strategies that Stannis might take, like cutting Winterfell off and starving it out, sieging it. And Winterfell, though, is stocked because the several parties that have come to it for the wedding brought a ton of food. But the party's really big, meaning they will run out eventually. Stannis' people will also be desperate for food and itching to get inside a castle with stores. And obviously from all this ruse isn't dumb

he's tied the northerners to his cause whether they wanted to whether they liked it or not much like little finger is doing in the eerie you know like whichever way you go it's coming back to me i'm gonna double back quickly to what you're saying about you know the northmen coming out in the winter and dying and i point to to an essay by Militant Penguin. He wrote this one on Reddit, but Militant Penguin was also a writer on the Wars and Politics of Ice and Fire blog for a while. And he wrote about how, you know,

this winter is terrible and a lot of the older men or older people are going to go out there and die, but how the Manderley party and a lot of them might see this winter and what they're doing here against the Boltons as their last stand in the winter right they're just going out there and being like all right we're doing it yeah what have we got to lose nothing but they've lost everything yeah though i guess if they die you know they become part of the army of the dead but whatever we'll cross that bridge when we get there you can see the setup in these chapters

though that like as you're saying there's, a lot of focus on Stannis. And it's interesting because it's not just because he's, like, this threat out there, but because in terms of structure of the story, George R.R. Martin is setting down that groundwork for Theon, running to Stannis for shelter for him and Jane, where before Stannis seemed like the person who's going to come in their sleep and kill them. Theon's all like, oh, did we die already? Did Stannis kill us? But now Stannis becomes like their only hope. Their god, so to speak. Oh, their Azor Ahai. Wow, their prince that was promised. Oh my god.

Theon, of course, finds himself in the godswood. Beneath the white-cloaked trees, the earth had turned to mud. Tendrils of mist hung in the air like ghostly ribbons. Why did I come here? These are not my gods. This is not my place. The heart tree stood before him, a pale giant with a carved face and leaves like bloody hands.

This chapter is so good, and that passage is so good. All of the godswood stuff with Theon, this is what we've been waiting for, and the way that the heart tree is described, the pale giant with a carved face and leaves like bloody hands. Ah. Yes. Creepy.

Weird. And of course, the gray mist, the white clo cloaked trees the ghostly ribbons what does it mean chloe tell us what it means it means blood raven is there bitch he's doing some shit he's watching they're sitting there watching weirwood.net cctv indeed they're on it have you thought like about the fact that and i know you mentioned this in the last cast a little, that the Grey Mist isn't just Bloodraven, that it's Bran. Is there a possibility that in later books, have you considered that it is more of just Bran and not Bloodraven, as Bloodraven becomes eclipsed by Bran? So yes, yes, yes. When we get into the Winds of Winter chapter, yeah, I've thought a lot about the Winds of Winter sample chapter we're going to

talk about probably this month for patrons, so sign up for that. $5 and up gets you access to our Winds of Winter chapters and of course the rest of our patron episodes. We've done some fun episodes on Identity and of course the

Dance of the Dragons. We have a three-parter going on four-parter there so check it out it's never gonna end we're pulling a george but i do think that baton passes i think it's obvious in the winds of winter and we're going to talk about it in this episode this month that that baton passes from blood raven to brand this is Bran mostly that we hear from in the Winds of Winter. That's who's watching him at the end. It starts with Bloodraven. It starts with Bran. We get that Melisandre chapter

within all of this. Earlier on we get that Melisandre chapter and she thinks about how she sees them. They're slowly becoming prominent but then as we get into the Winds of Winter it seems like Bloodraven kind of fades off. So we'll see when Theon's chapter takes place in relation to Bran, or if we get Bran, you know, in the middle of something, thinking about something that already happened, and now they're at the new location.

Kind of like that Theon, Ned, Sansa, post-traumatic chapter thing kind of goes. And of course, all of this imagery brings back that second half of the sansa passage in the veil and storm of swords that we talked about it's what follows that i do not belong here and there's this line where yet she stepped out all the same her boots tore ankle deep holes into the smooth white surface of the snow yet made no sound sansa drifted past frosted shrubs and thin, dark trees and wondered if she were still dreaming. Yes. And of course, Theon

has that similar feeling in some of these, but it's kind of like a nightmare. Yeah. His life sucks right now. Yep. In the grove, Theon gets to his knees and he begins to plea. First he begins starting an apology and then he starts asking for salvation. He's deciding whether to ask the old gods.

He's wavering between, like, what am I even going to ask them for? Like, strength? Courage? Mercy? And then, far away, he hears Jane sobbing in the back. And he thinks, gods do not weep. Or do they? That's what you're going to ask for, bitch. He decides whether to ask, you know, for the strength, courage, or mercy. But then he hears Jane sobbing in the back. You know what?

Ask for all of it. What's the fucking point? You know, if you can't just ask for all of it. Yeah, you're not going to get shit, Theon. No. Just shoot your shot, Theon. You miss 100% of the shots that you don't take, Theon. You miss 100% of the shots that you don't take, Theon.

I mean, you'll miss some of the ones that you do take, as we learned in Song of Ice and Fire. Yeah, you're an archer. You know how it goes. In Song of Ice and Fire, though, yeah, like, that idea of whether or not gods weep. The story is definitely about children who are being put in positions of power above what

they can handle. Because, I mean, normal adults cannot handle this, okay? We're putting wee babs here. And we haven't really, I think, seen Bran cry yet as an almighty, powerful being, but it seems as though people

are having dreams, you know, coming back to dreams of him looking sad. And of course, he is a god he's the old god whoa whoa whoa we have seen him cry we've seen the weirwoods cry oh but like is it like yeah i know it's not him you know it's like um i put on a crying mask but people have seen him looking very sad in their dreams and it also kind of reminds me of denarius at the end of a storm of swords um when she's on top of the pyramid of marine me of denarius at the end of a storm of swords um when she's on top of the pyramid of marine and she's wondering if the gods ever felt lonely and it's

very much just about that idea of like the fallibility of gods if they weep and all those things and i think george is unpacking that like the vulnerability of like your heroes but of course that also feels like the weaknesses of the devils of the Seven of Ways and Fire, like Ramsay and Euron and Joffrey and whatever. I love that isolation of the god kind of lonely. Yeah. That lonely god idea of Dany alone and Marie, no one she can truly

trust, and Jon. Yeah. Especially when he comes back from the dead. I think he's gonna be even lonelier in that. And I mean, puberty's already hard and lonely as it is puberty is so hard and they're all going through it alone mostly or like with horrible creepy people that are guiding their moves like danny with jorah danny with i guess drogo danny with viscerys danny with illyrio listen do you need me to keep going or uh sanza with you know little finger puberty's hard yeah puberty's really hard and they have it

very hard and i i want to piggyback on what you say about these kids calling positions of power and that's what this story is about and that's very true it's something that i will just like broken record about obviously forever because this story isn't about the cersei's and the little fingers it's not about jamie it's not about Brienne in the end. I mean, it is. They're big parts of the story, but it's not about them in the very end. It's about rebuilding Westeros. And maybe some of them do survive, but people like Littlefinger, there's no place in the world they're going to build in the aftermath. There's no place for Euron. A lot of these big villains have to die. There's no place for Ramsay and Bruce in the of these big villains have to die there's no place for Ramsay and Bruce

in the end of this story or hopefully not there better not be I'll kill a bitch your own inner demons as everyone wrestles with that intergenerational trauma after what they went through building a country my tick promise me Eliana

every time I like watch anything now they're like promise me and I'm like anyway as Theon gets back up he's thinking that there are ghosts in Winterfell and that he is one of them it's just that's such a good line

yeah it's such a good line it's almost like we're gonna use it again in the title of a chapter what no no more snowmen had again in the title of a chapter. What? No. No. More snowmen had risen in the yard by the time Theon Greyjoy made his way back. To command the snowy sentinels on the walls, the squires had erected a dozen snowy lords.

One was plainly meant to be Lord Manderly. It was the fattest snowman Theon had ever seen. I'm sorry, that's adorable. It is. The one armed lord could only be Harwood Stout, the snow lady Barbary Dustin, and the one closest to the door with the beard made of icicles had to be old whore's bay number. All right, so earlier, the snowy sentinels and the soldiers, obviously, you're supposed to be thinking like, kind of like the whites but here now that there are lords and you have like of course the white walkers who are like the necromancers kind of controlling the whites i mean like guys we've talked about it before here elsewhere like the

whites and the others they're a metaphor okay for the rest of westeros and the lords controlling the soldiers and just sending them out to die without really caring about how most of them feel you know it's a thing this is a real thing yeah what she said and no no you covered that really well I don't have

to go on the dogs though are here. They are not others. They are not whites. They are puppers, and they are happy to see Threep. Threep slash Theon. And Helicent curls up by his feet. She's eating a bone at the same time.

She's like, they're just so happy to see her. It's almost like you forget that they're like merger dogs, but. Get the boy a dog. He'll be happier for it. Get him an entire pack of dogs. I mean, who wouldn't be happier for that? Think about it. Yeah. The lone doggo dies, but the pack survives.

Yeah, the pack cuddles. Theon's a Stark, see? We did it! We did it! As Theon eats his soup, he hears news from scouts that Stannis' advance has slowed to a crawl. Their warhorses, the large, huge, thunderous warhorses, are struggling in the snow. But the small ones are doing better.

Hashtag horse facts. The hill clans, though, won't go too far forward even with their faster, smaller horses, because separation would cause the whole host to fall apart. But also, guess what? Abel is here right now. Yeah, he's just playing away, right? And Barbary joins in the hall and she sends for Theon.

She's completely disgusted by his smell. She remarks, Theon's wearing the same clothes he wore at the wedding. Which, like, what? Okay, duh. Yeah yeah she's just like ew and i don't know do people just like do people not understand how this whole torture thing works like why is this surprising to anyone especially because like his hair is white like he looks like a different person he walks with a gait like he's obviously injured and here against his will and like

obviously some shit's gone down like just look at him and the smell like that's not normal but also maybe it's like they just think it is right like maybe they think ironborn are just smelly and gross i mean maybe but some of these people like have met him before right like there's no yeah like obviously he's not well kept like he was. He used to wear the clothes he's wearing right now. Like, these were given to him as a facade. You know, like, the clothes he used to wear were velvety and beautiful. And he had gold chains that he bought, you know, with what money? I guess Stark money.

No one knows. Yeah, and he's been trying to wear that outfit the whole time, but it doesn't fit anymore. trying to wear that outfit the whole time but it doesn't fit anymore just like the idea that the Theon from before meeting Ramsay before being tortured by Ramsay doesn't fit him anymore as an identity

but we're seeing it throughout these chapters that Reek obviously isn't who he is so maybe we'll see like in in the wins and later on as he tries to wrestle and find a new different Theon that works for who he is theon replies to her that these are the clothes he was given these are the chains he must wear right that's straight up what he's saying dustin asks theon to show her the way

to the crypts she's kind of snippy. She's like, that's where my favorite Starks are because they're dead. Edgy. The entrance to the crypts is in the oldest part of the castle and Ramsay burned this down too. It's a ruinous shell and there's a gargoyle poking out of the snow, which reminds me of Sansa

trying to make her gargoyles in her snow castle and she can't form them and Littlefinger's like, just here, just take some snow, snow throw it right here it looks like how the gargoyles would they just be lumps they just be lumps in the winter don't what are you doing you idiot that's like go get a job uh pretty much i'm almost tempted to say to barbara dustin at times in this chapter we'll get to that barbara Barbara Dustin is like she got her inheritance from her fucking husband's will and now she's just like

well I'm just bored and my husband died and I really didn't like him but I'm just more mad he died I just she's mad at a lot of things she lives in a lake house she is a white woman in a lake house who has nothing better to

do than drink wine at 3 p.m on a sunday yeah you know i don't yeah barbary you i think she's a badass strong female character you know but also real bitter and like not a lot of payoff yet i agree bitter like where's the payoff like what's yeah i think i might feel more um less like barbara what are you not noticing here if when we get that payoff but right now i'm just like girl what anyway a theon in this moment thinks about how oh this is the spot where we found Bran after he fell. And then he thinks, like, that didn't kill Bran, just like I didn't. That boy just keeps on surviving.

It's not dead, just broken like me. Oh. Why would you do that? I just want everyone to be real sad with me for a minute. Everyone, you all on board? Allie? She is. She put her head down. Oh, Allie. It takes forever to get into the crypt, and they have to clear the path, and they're like,

We got it! We're at the door! And it turns out the door is frozen shut. It's like a whole fucking endeavor. They finally get in, and the air grows warmer as they get further down. It's the springs! That's true. It is that. Below Lady Dustin knows. She's like, Arya, our Lady Aryaria ramsey's bride is weeping theon's just cautious in his responses for obvious reasons and dustin tells theon you gotta tell your bastard that ruse is like pretty displeased with all of this and he's just like what he's not my bastard also like i'm just like your bastard like whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa i'm his pet

like what are you insinuating barbary listen it's like what are you not understanding about all of and that's what i'm just not getting i'm like what do you not get about all of this like he obviously is in no position to say these things. But it's just like last chapter, right? It's just like the Prince of Winterfell. Roose told Theon to be like, Ramsey, you need to chill. And Theon's like, I don't think that's a good idea for me. And Barbarie's like, you need to tell Ramsey that he needs to chill. And Theon's like, ehhh.

And like, all these adults are underestimating Ramsey. And they're just like, oh, oh someone would just tell him to stop maybe you know his friend reek will tell him to stop that nice boy kind of smells weird but you know we'll hang on and why is no one telling ramsey to chill like because no one does that because only ramsey tells ramsey to chill because ramsey's a psychopath and he's gonna kill ruse bolton and that was my TED talk. And I didn't warn you of it this time, but it was going there. No, I knew it was going there. I saw it coming.

You can run, but you can't hide, bitch. I didn't even put a quote in this time. I just did it. Oh, I know. I saw it coming here. I was like, she's gonna bring it up. I could see it building. Just know I was there.

The North remembers. Squad. Do people still say squad? I don't think it's a thing anymore. Unsure. Unclear. And essentially, Theon has, like, what is the thought equivalent of, like,

we belong together. Regarding him and Ramsey,'m like no you poor boy that's not how this works please don't think that Lady Dustin talks about how dressing the girl in stark colors it's pretty fucking unhelpful if she seems miserable the entire time because

you know what the rest of the north fucking loves the starks so if she seems miserable in the Stark colors this is bad for us but she doesn't love the Starks she's not like those other northern people those other girls who love the Starks

cause I mean like the other northmen haven't forgotten what happened to Lady Hornwood so it wouldn't really be good for that same thing to happen to as she says valiant Ned's precious little girl yes I imagine she says that in the most scathing bitter tone possible

right like that sarcastic valiant Ned's precious little girl just like jam you know Barbary was a fucking she was hot when she was younger. You know, she's still pretty... They describe her as handsome, but like...

Barbary fucked. As we know. Oh, she did. Oh, she fucked. She did. She fucked. She could pull. Theon thinks Arya isn't Ned's daughter.

That she's the steward's daughter. But maybe Dustin knows, you knows you know also maybe everyone knows deep down maybe they just want a reason to go out in a last freezing bitter war yeah it's just kind of hard to think like i mean i think there are definitely some of them who don't know right right some are just like ignorant of their own fault but i feel like some people are like ignorance is bliss like especially the people that are in on it like the karstarks the umbers they're like yeah oh yeah yeah they definitely know they gotta they gotta yeah i mean like it seems like all of the lords know

at the very least or the nobility which in the end is ultimately really a bummer because you know, Jane is... No one cares about Jane. Jane doesn't matter, you know, except Theon. They should. They should. But they don't. They should. But they should. We're gonna go into more depth in this, like, in

the Theodewyn's chapter. I've got a lot of thoughts. So, the lowest level of the crypts is partially collapsed, we learn. Which I think that's going to come back at some point. I don't know how. I just feel like it is just such a detailed scan. It feels like it. I agree. I don't know what like you said, but it's

got that feeling, you know? More than a feeling. Like when you're watching a cartoon, right? And you see like... An anvil? Especially the old cartoons. Or not just the anvil, right? And you see like- An anvil. Especially the old cartoons. Or not just the anvil, you know, like sometimes like a certain part is drawn differently. And you're like, that's going to animate somehow. Dread fills Theon as he sees all the stone kings.

He doesn't know their names, but he used to. He remembers Torrin Stark, the last king in the north, the king who knelt before Rob, that is. And he even thinks of his namesake, the last king in the north, the king who knelt before Rob, that is, and he even thinks of his namesake, the Hungry Wolf. Lady Dustin asks to see Ned's tomb. The stone eyes of the dead men seemed to follow them, and the eyes of their stone direwolves as well. The faces stirred faint memories.

A few names came back to him, unbidden, whispered in the ghostly voice of Maester Luwin. King Edric Snowbeard, who had ruled the North for a hundred years. Brandon the Shipwright, who had sailed beyond the sunset. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. My namesake. Lord Beren Stark, who made common cause with Casterly Rock to war against Dagon Greyjoy, Lord of Pyke, in the days when the Seven Kingdoms were ruled in all but name by the bastard sorcerer men called Bloodraven.

Huh, Bloodraven? I've never heard of him. How interesting he turns up in this chapter. Have you ever heard of him? I've never heard of him. But you know what? I don't think he's important. It's really funny because you say that, but every time I think of Bloodraven, it's just like I get this foggy feeling. Yeah. It's too far.

Misty. You know, just a little gray about it. Yeah. See where I'm going with that? I'm talking Bloodraven. That's so Bloodraven. It's the future he can see. It's the future he can see.

That's so Bloodraven. Blood Raven. It's the future he can see. It's the future he can see. I think the first person that I think of saying that is A'shea. That used to be like her pinned tweet. Yeah, A'shea totally did it first. Yes, I believe she was the Blood Raven tweeter for that. Yes. What a bop. It was actually a really good

song. It's all mysterious to me. I related chelsea really hard so what chelsea the character okay yeah that's me interesting the white friend with the red dyed hair okay yeah you feel that i don't know who i related to in that show i don't know the little brother or something you're cory as it always is cory yeah or something. Your Cory? Cory in the house. Cory in the house, it's cute. He got his own show called Cory in the house.

Anyways. Lady Dustin had asked Theon earlier if he remembered the names of the kings when they were going through the crypts, and Theon was all like, I used to, but obviously not anymore. But I think it's interesting that we see the names

coming back to him here. And of course, it's through the names of like all these other figures of history, like of these Starks, just as like how Theon keeps remembering Jane's name and that she's not Arya. Like we see him beginning to reclaim the name of Theon, not Reek, just a little through all of these other names, and I think that's just kind of fun. Poetic. Totally reminds me of the heraldry that comes with Sansa and her arc, and also you really see a lot of that steel

covering Theon in this that Dustin had said, do you remember the names of the kings? He's like, nope, sure don't. And then he gets here and all he sees as he looks around, he's like, of course I didn't start names. Like, this is where I grew up. This was my home. Yeah.

And Lady Dustin notices that some of the kings are missing their swords and there's streaks of rust where they should be and like probably wore down. And it definitely unnerves Theon, who thinks again of those ghosts and Winterfell and himself again being one. And these swords are supposed to like hold spirits in. So it's kind of weird and creepy yeah i love that whole theory that the sword is keeping like the dead starks at you know how they are they're not uh yeah not going out and becoming whites or whatever but that like you remove the swords then the dead will rise or whatever i don't know i love that it's supposed to keep their spirits in it's just a really interesting theory and i don't remember who did the original but it's probably from like the west rose dude it's probably older than that it's probably from the

dragon stone forums oh damn you don't know i'm just kidding you're right it's definitely west rose it's just like what 2011 yeah but they definitely discussed those ideas earlier on and like the christian like clash right yeah that's true that was discussed because they take the swords so yeah yeah this is probably from dragon stone this is probably shit that was old this is like before our time like the starks of old before our time oh wow wow thanks you know their names are lost lost to the annals of the- The annals. The annals of GeoCities and whatever.

Angel Fire. Theon finally asks Lady Dustin why she hates the Starks. My lady, why do you hate the Starks? She studied him. For the same reason you love them. Theon stumbled. Love them? I never- I took this castle from them, my lady.

I had... Had Bran and Riggen put to death, mounted their heads on spikes, I... Rode south with Robb Stark. Fought beside him at the Whispering Wood in Riverrun. Returned to the Iron Islands as his envoy to treat with your own father. Barotin sent men with the young wolf as well. I gave him as few men as I dared, but I knew that I must needs give him some, or risk the wrath of Winterfell. So I had my own eyes and ears in that host. They kept me well informed. I know who you are.

I know what you are. Now answer my question. Why do you love the Starks? Now answer my question. Why do you love the Starks? I... Theon put a gloved hand against a pillar. I wanted to be one of them. And never could. And we have more in common than you know, my lord, but... Come.

So. Obviously, this is a big character moment for theon finally admitting the thing that we kind of like had seen building up in the past few chapters but you know we'll get to theon we'll get to theon but first we want to talk about lady dustin yes acting as a sort of mirror to jane pool to Jane Poole in this moment. It's something I've been known to just like yell about incessantly, that this feudal society and how women subscribe to the feudal society, such an interesting battle, right? You look at Catelyn, who's done nothing but be loyal to her father,

to her house, to her family name, to advancing them, you know, Southern ambitions. You look at Lady Dustin, who did everything that was asked of her she put aside her young love with brandon after he was betrothed someone like catalyn stark and she you know was always waiting in the wings did what her father said she married lord dustin she did everything that was asked of her. And then she was just shit on. Lord Dustin wrote off in the war. Ned Stark.

And she she was left with nothing after he died. All she had was their houses to uphold. And Jane Poole is someone not the worst. No, Lady Dustin. So that's probably what bugs me the most is like, yes, your husband died and it sucks. But Jane didn't even have that kind of autonomy. She didn't even get to, you know, lead a house. She doesn't get to be a human.

She was just sold off literally like a broad mare. Cersei complains about being sold off like a broad mare, which sure, she gets sold a tiny bit, but nothing compared to what Jane. Jane was sold off like a broad mirror, but not even sold. She was just given. Her life didn't mean enough to be sold. You know, there's no gold, no silver, no bronze that could mean anything about her. So but Lady Dustin does have that mirror of, you know, that whole supporting the Starks and living and breathing and dying for the Starks and supporting your liege lord and being loyal to them. But for what? For this?

Have your husband killed to lose your love to not be able to have anything that you wanted? Yeah, but at the same time, it's Lady Dustin in a way got off the easiest. Yes. Yeah, but at the same time, Lady Dustin, in a way, got off the easiest out of all of them. Because Theon and Jane, they were so close to the Stark family. They were right there, and they could taste being Starks. And there's a lot of weird classics that are wrapped up in there, which of course plays into Lady Dustin's desire to be a Stark, but inability to become so. For Theon, he was raised alongside them. And the fact that he could never be a Stark means that he doesn't get the safety of family that's afforded to the rest of the Starks because, and that's part of why he always felt that coldness from Ned.

He knew that he was never truly safe thinking of Ned as his father. And he had that one Stark that he felt close to, who was as close to him as family. For him, it was Robb. And then he had that other Stark that he had to try and, I think, distance himself from and shove aside in a way to try and get into the family. And for him, that was Jon. He was like, Jon's just a bastard. And so he would sort of, I think, dismiss him. And for Jane, she wanted to be Sansa's sister so badly and to become a Stark. And she gets that wish by becoming the sister that she made fun of, Arya Horseface. She's like, I gave her that name. And then she gets to live that hell.

Exactly. that name and then she gets to live that hell exactly and in wanting to become a stark it's like they're being punished for not being who they are in like a literary sense even though obviously that's not really what's what they're being punished for they're not being punished for anything right they didn't do anything that warranted what's happening to them whereas lady dustin you know she doesn't get to become a stark because she's too lowborn same as jane you know who aspires to at one point marry uh barak don darian and dustin because of southern ambitions which we're going to get into in a second a little bit i don't know people have discussed it in depth would never be the kind of vassal that the Starks could look at when Rickard Stark is

making plays. Yeah, absolutely. Southern Ambitions comes into this majorly. That idea, Stephen Sausset talked about it in his essays on it, that these houses, Hoster, Tolley, you know, John Aaron, Rickard Stark, they all were in war together in the War of the Nine Penny Kings. And they grew up kind of in that era together as men. And they had families or, you know, wanted to marry into each other's houses and create stronger alliances. And of course, that all feeds into that whole idea of Aerys being a mad king and them wanting him to be off the throne, which many people have written theories off of. It's just such a stepping stone in A Song of Ice and Fire in our community.

So Lady Dustin doesn't get to be a Stark. Brandon gets betrothed to Catelyn Tully, as we know, to strengthen that Riverlands and Northern Alliance. And then, of course, John Arryn gets married to Lysa. It ends up being a double ceremony, but Brandon dies first. So Ned takes that place. So Lady Dustin gets ultimately rejected. She thought she was special. She thought she was different, but not in the Game of Thrones. Alliances and big political marriages come first, and she was not a big political marriage.

There was no reason to make House Riswell swear to the North again. You know, not right now, not at all. And maybe Benjen would have been that guy. A lot of people are like, oh, you know, the second son or the third son goes to the Night's Watch. Maybe Ned would have been that guy. You know, one of the children probably would have been used to make a political allegiance with the

North, one to make a bigger allegiance, an ally with the South or with another house in general. And then, of course, Benjen could take the Black or he could marry someone. I think his taking the Black came from more of the information knowing stance. I mean, I could

see Rickard having had bigger plans for also benjamin right because he's having ned so a brandon of course is betrothed to catelyn tully and is out there doing you know firstborn son things like in terms of following his father learning to be a lord but ned is out there being fostered with another lord paramount like he's a ward there and like benjamin's just really young at that point but he's going around with them to other areas of the seven kingdoms like he's coming down to the riverlands they're not just leaving him at home so yeah they're grooming him they're grooming him to be you know the third son i don't think he was being groomed to go which the Night's Watch, in my opinion.

I agree. However, I do think it's interesting that, you know, they speak about how a man from the Night's Watch came to the tourney at Harrenhal. And this is obviously so off topic, but they speak about how, you know, a man from the Night's Watch came and begged at the tourney for people to join. And Benjen ends up joining. And of course, this is the tourney where everything happened with Liana originally. This is where it all began, where Rhaegar offered her the wreath of blue roses,

which gives me no emotion. And that's Benjen's option, and he takes it from that night where, you know, the Night's Watch man came to say, you know, come to the Night's Watch. We need your help. So that was his one place where he knew he could erase everything. Anyways. Lady Dustin. Lord Dustin and I had not been married half a year when Robert Rose and Ned Stark called his banners. I begged my husband not to go. He had

kin he might have sent instead. An uncle famed for his prowess with an axe, a great uncle who had fought in the War of the Nine Penny Kings, but he was a man and full of pride. Nothing would serve but that he lead the barrowton levies himself. I gave him a horse the day he set out, a red stallion with a fiery mane, the pride of my lordfather's herds. My lord swore he would ride him home when the war was done. Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests. But I promise you, Lord Eddard's bones will never rest beside hers.

I mean to feed them to my dogs. Dion did not understand. His bones? Her lips twisted. It was an ugly smile. A smile that reminded him of Ramsay's. Catelyn totally dispatched Lord Eddard's bones north before the Red Wedding, but your Iron Uncle sees Moat Catelyn and closed the way. I have been watching ever since. Should those bones ever emerge from the swamps,

they will get no farther than Barrowton. She threw one last lingering look at the likeness of eddard stark we are done here that's an interesting passage like on its own to look at all that and her like her glare at eddard stark like her real like okay her real problem as we just discussed is that she doesn't get to bone Brandon forever and she thought she was going to marry him. And then it becomes Eddard Stark is the reason her husband's dead. Stark suck! I mean, no. I mean, okay, I'm just going to throw this out there.

What she should have done was steal his conscription papers and left a hair comb and taken his place in the war. Are you talking about Mulan again? So that they would all survive. Yes. I'm just saying. Again. That if that's what Lady Dustin wanted, if she really cared. She would have made it happen. That's what she should have done.

Yes. Yes. So Eddard's bones are stuck up before Moat Caitlyn. What about it? What about it, Chloe? What about it? No, Eliana, I'm really glad you asked after I asked loudly and then you repeated what I said. I'm your mirror. mirror oh that reminds me of

a song it's one of my favorite songs am i jane i'll be your mind um they're stuck in the crannies they're in the neck so i think we're gonna see these bones in the neck i think uh i think there's gonna be this like the hero goes south to learn his parentage kind of thing. I think he's going to go. John is probably going to end up in the neck. And like most people will be like, no, Bran's going to go there first because of Meera. I think John is going to end up. This is my personal take here.

In the neck, he's going to go to Greywater Watch to retrieve Ned's bones, bring it back for Stark's funeral, but also learned about his parentage from the only people that knew his parents and knew them well. Howland Reed and Howland Reed's wife. Tell me about Howland Reed's wife, Chloe. She has purple eyes. Oh, does she? She's real slender and she's tall.

Anyways, so as they leave, Lady Dustin warns Theon not to repeat anything that was disclosed in the crypts. Hold my tongue or lose it. Bruce has trained you well. Oh my god.

Okay, I'm sorry. I just still can't. I'm just like is no one paying attention here? Like, Bruce isn't the one who, like, traumatized Theon to this point? Like, it was Ramsay, obviously, who makes him feel like he's gonna lose body parts. Yeah, I don't- Like, what does no one understand about torture? What isn't she- Neither of them. Like, they think this is just like, he's fine with it,

you know? Like like that's what's so weird to me um it's just normal like i don't know i think she doesn't understand a lot honestly it's there's lots to say about lord dustin and why she hates everybody here and well she's right to be bitter that she lost her husband to ned's cause come on dude that's what being a loyal lord with status is in this society, right? Like Lord Dustin was in upper management. He reports to the North's VP. I think in terms of like what I do at my job, he's a plant manager, right? At the same time, though, she also thinks that during the war, like her husband died while Ned was out fucking and having bastards, just like his brother would have done.

Right? Like, that's also another thought. Like, those awful, good-for-nothing Stark men, fuck them, am I right? Yeah. Yeah, that is what she's thinking, especially, yeah, because Ned comes home with a bastard. Yeah, a very Stark-looking bastard. Yeah, I mean, like, on one on one hand i get it ned could have brought his bones home he could have but he was also like super traumatized and no one understands that part because he's like keeping this huge secret but i get it you know he could have brought the bones home he could have tried harder i guess but, how hard could it have been? That just brings us back to that discussion of the Cairns

and how, like, he and Howland all alone shoveled up those Cairns with a crying baby on their hips. Shoveled up all those Cairns and, like, created them. Put them in, you know, like, he, like, buried all these men. There's just also this idea. I just think it's one of those things where he was so traumatized or whatever that this was his way of, I don't know, dealing with it. Very Shadow Moon, very Dunk. Yeah, dig a bunch of, do this mindless task while I'm dealing with the death of everyone.

Crying in the rain, yeah. Pretty much, but in the desert. And that's what i think of it there might be something else going on there and it seems like there are hints at that but that's how it feels to me as well as like i think it's those different ideas of honor like you were saying that you know this is his uh lord dustin's duty but at the same time like as we see with titus lannister people don't respect him for not having gone to war. The war of the Ninepenny Kings and things like that.

And maybe Ned sees being buried here at this really terrible, awful battle or fight as honoring them correctly. Whereas it's a different value system for lady dustin who sees having her husband's bones brought back is a way of honoring him for him to in his family right for him to be home yeah yeah and there's that whole idea of like that thwarted by the starks kind of mentality right uh we see it in little finger yeah she kind of it's in ways like i am like i do think of little figure i'm just like lady dustin let it go like they're all dead move on all right there are other people in the world there are ghosts in winterfell and they're not one of them yeah all right and they're like the living here let the ghosts go let the dead men die. Men's lives have meaning. Other deaths.

Oh. Oh, is that a theme in the story I just heard? Is it? I don't know. I think the Jane mirror you spoke on is super strong. I think it leads to Theon, which makes it the strongest of mirrors in this whole arc and identity kind of thematics. Barbary's bitterness coming from supporting the Starks and giving them everything, right?

Like as a young highborn woman, as a wife to a Northern board, as someone forced to play the game and burnt after playing it. I think that really shows a lot. Jane went to capital with Sansa and she was supposed to be her handmaiden, right? I mean, she was supposed to be her lady in waiting,

her right-hand woman, and she got burnt in everything that happened and there's a lot of this contrast to catelyn catelyn got burnt but she made the best of it she tried to get vengeance in the end when she was you know uh cold and hurt and ned's dead and nothing else to lose and barbara is just bubbling with all that resentment right inside of her there's no real move to make but she prefers to keep her current status and she doesn't want to end up like donella hornwood absolutely and the fact that she doesn't make a real move right to become a stark maybe that's why she doesn't

end up like lady donella hornwood but you know things can change because apparently now she doesn't want to be a stark she clearly envies them and again there's that weird thing going on with like class like of course they get to be like the coolest and bestest people because they're like the lords and have like the best stuff and they're still a part of that systemic thing

exactly they're at the top of the totem pole and people envy them and love them. And it's all mixed up and weird. And I don't know, maybe she'll do something, maybe not. I'm waiting for the payoff for Lady Barbary Dustin, because otherwise she's just like bitter drunk on. And I'm like, what are you not getting about this situation?

Yeah, I just don't understand. I really am interested to see what happens. Let us know your hot takes on what Lady Barbary is doing, because it could be anything at this point, you know? Maybe just knitting. Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, I thought she seemed a little more, of course, interesting and badass, like on first reads,

but now like, I'm just like, Barbary Dustin, he's clearly tortured. I think she's a woman that's just consumed by her bitter hatred. You know, I mean, she's had so much time to just soak it in and been so alone.

It's interesting to see how she acts. I'm interested to see what happens in the Winds of Winter with her. It's one to look out for. And I'm curious to see what, when we'll of Winter with her. That's one to look out for, and I'm curious to see when we'll even see it. In a Davos chapter? What payoff are we going to get? Theon's moving out of there, so a Jon chapter? It would be interesting

if it were Davos or Jon, because we have it and Barbara Dustin is very much symptomatic of something we're seeing in a lot of the other older characters in A Song of Ice and Fire. Like you said, she's just been marinating in her bitterness. Whereas you have like Doran also doing a similar thing, marinating in his desire for vengeance somehow. So, wins.

Man, well, we have a crazy episode next week this was a fucking episode and a half but we have an episode next week we are going to be doing the ghost in winterfell I'm excited for that we are yeah as you can all see we are taking it slow

and easy with these reek chapters they all are a lot yeah very blackwater-esque we're really glad you guys have stuck it out because these have been rough on us. We're emotionally exhausted. We're like, how do we handle this? But next week, we have a guest that's going to help us smooth through it all.

We are going to have poor Quentin on once more. It's been a while since we've had him on. Really excited to have him back. Welcome him back on the podcast. We will be doing the ghost in Winterfell in A Dance with Dragons. We're getting very near the end of Theon. So really excited and we will be having a

Patreon episode for Theon this month in the winds of winter and we're very excited to talk about next month soon. So let's get to that. Yes, and I'm so excited to have poor quentin on you know we're gonna have five hosts on this episode we're gonna have you me alice ann quentin jahari's and it's gonna be the cats the cats if you guys don't know i have two cats uh we post about them on Twitter sometimes. Alysanne is one of the kittens. She is eight months old.

She's our producer, executive producer. She okays anything we post, so if you see it posted on Twitter, on our Podbean, on Patreon, Alysanne hit the button with her little paws. So... Yes. She's also the one who hits

the button over on Spotify, on acast on stitcher and of course if you ever want to get in touch with us alice ann will be moderating messages with her little kittenly paws at girls gone canon at gmail.com or on twitter if you hit us a direct message there. Yep. And alongside Alysanne, she's got her assistant who comes in and out. It's not the most dependable of executive producers, Jaharis. He's part-time. He's not really. He's part-time.

He's part-time. But we've given him a big job. You know, he's there running our Patreon over on patreon.com slash girls gone canon. Yeah, he is still in the process of uploading our notes from chapters. Hey, if you pay $1 or more to us on Patreon, you will get a lot of $1 posts and up. You'll also get, you know, some chapter notes, which like we said, Jairus is so behind on, but he's working on it. You know, we told him either pay up or we're calling the temp agency, so. Jairus,

you know, we understand you're young. You're, yep, he's just, you're of age now, all right? You can take that throne. Are you guys worried that we're just, like, giving away our advertising and regular campaigns to our cats? God. As always, you guys, this has been a blast. Thank you for putting up with us to our cats. God. As always, you guys,

this has been a blast. Thank you for putting up with us and my cats that aren't even really here. They're doing shit. They're eating. One of them's eating. I don't know. I have been one of your hosts. Chloe, you can find me on the internet as Liza and Arbor on Twitter, Tumblr, and LizaAndArborGold.com.

And I, of course, have been another one of your hosts, Eliana, also known as glass table girl. Thank you so much for joining us again this week.