Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 74 - ADWD Jon VIII

Episode Date: December 6, 2019

Jon sends Val off on an adventure with big hopes that she comes back. When he returns to his quarters, he meets a frosty welcome from three not-so-wise men who have some opinions about the direction of the Night's Watch.  ------- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro by Anton Langhage   

Hello, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 74, Jon Snow in A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 8. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me from the internet as LiesInArbor on Twitter, Tumblr, and LiesInArborGold.com. And I am Eliana, another one of your hosts. You might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit, or maybe as Arithmetric over on Twitter. I can't believe how packed this episode is gonna be for this slim little chapter. Yeah, I actually thought it was

a longer chapter, but turns out it was just dense. Lots of info dumped, like, right here. Boom, bam, stuff happens. We move on. And, you know, as I read it, I was like, should we have done 8 and 9 together? But then I, like, zoomed ahead and, like, re-read chapter 9

after this, and I was like oh no hell no there's so much that happens in that that needs a whole entire like hour and a half two hours dedicated to it but this this is like a strong chapter I come to appreciate it I think it's the espresso of John's chapters

yeah it really gets you ahead to get you through this get you to 9 and then the real shit goes down yeah there's things that play out chapters. Yeah, it really gets you ahead to get you through this, get you to nine. Yeah. And then the real shit goes down. Yeah, there's things that play out in the upcoming chapters based on this one. But there's also other stuff that I think we're gonna see more of how that plays out in the books. But later on, I think it was like setting stuff up that was supposed to happen in late dance. But as we all know, George had to move like what i think the number was 250 pages or so of dance into wins because he just still like wasn't done wrapping things up and so just

restructured yeah and those 250 are like what carryover minutes like at&t style for those of you that remember those and i feel like rollover minutes are happening more and more. I feel like Georgia is going to have enough rollover for another book. So we got an email from our friend, Pat a long time ago. I'm talking like beginning of October and I wanted to come back to it. I was waiting. It came a little bit after when I would have liked to talk about it. So now I think it's a great time to bring it back,

especially as we look at torment giants babe and his uh his band of merry men coming back into the picture by merry men i mean free folk that are running from the others and dying we're booing at that boo death boo death how dare how dare it come for us at the end of our lives, always. So yeah, this email comes from our good friend Pat. It says, Turning back to the recent podcasts, which are now no longer recent, side note, I appreciated the discussion that followed Mance's terms to John,

which recontextualized the wildling migration south. Although we should look sympathetically on the free folk, not wanting to be destroyed and reanimated as thralls to the others, I think the fans of the book slash show often go too far in criticizing the Night's Watch slash the North and their anxiety of letting the wildlings south of the wall.

Although it isn't wrong to reframe the wildlings as refugees in contrast to how they were originally presented in John's chapters, as Mance Raider putting together a massive army, Mance's terms really do support the invasion narrative as well as the refugee narrative. Mance and his people certainly need to escape into the South, but his concept that his people would be separate from the feudal society whose lands they were going to be occupying

is a dangerous notion. I'm not trying to necessarily be pro-feudalism, but the kind of outlaw setup that Mance is suggesting would represent a clear danger to the Northern folk, even if the reality of the Free Folk did not match the propaganda of old Nance tales. As much as I like Mance, I felt he was either asking too high a price from John for this agreement if he seriously wanted the watch at Castle Black to stand down. This email is not me chiding anyone for being pro-wilding,

I just wanted to share some of my thoughts on the Mance Raider proposition. Pleasant weeks and weekends to you both. In best regards, I'm also gonna extend I'm sharing those pleasant weeks and weekends wishes to all the rest of you listeners. I think I'm allowed to do that. I'm amplifying

it. Oh yeah, Pat would let you. He would be very happy if you did that here are pat's best wishes pat makes great points and we did talk about this a little bit then i think it's very important to recontextualize this email now i'm not going to try to sass you too much pat uh it's funny i thought we had already answered this because i have a clear argument in my head sassing Pat and I never forget a good Pat sass is what I told him like I just don't so I had to make sure we didn't actually answer it we didn't recontextualizing this with how they meet Tormund and especially with how Bowen Marsh

speaks about the free folk and Selador uh and Yarwick in this episode how they speak about the free folk and their people in this. It's hard. I think a few chapters ago, I might have agreed a little more. But I think the biggest part of this is that it's a spark, right? And that's what they needed. They needed a spark. Mance coming south.

No, he didn't have a plan of assimilating his people. And yes, I agree. That's not good. They have to assimilate kind of into life. Yes, the north is more wild, but I mean, you can't just come in and just raid and reave and decide you have a new nice home. That's when you get given the Iron Islands with no resources, you know, to have a fertile home, to have a real home. Yes, there have to be rules. That's part of that societal contract we talk about all the time in feudalism. You know, you do this and the Lord will protect you and

grant you certain perks and amenities. And Mance was never going to say yes to that. He was never going to bow to the man, right? We've heard enough from him. He was never going to do that. But him coming south of this people was a spark that ignited the chance for freedom for all of them, which is what I kind of think is really important. Freedom, obviously, from the others and freedom to have new opportunities. And a lot of people don't really have a choice against the others to forward some new, you know, here's what we're going to do. We're going to go south and we're going to buy some dresses and we're going to chill and we're going to beg for some land and hope the Night's Watch takes us in and do whatever we can to get in their good side. That was never going to be his plan, right?

Even if he had the time to make a plan where it was a little more normalized, it just never was. But it's about that spark and it's about getting them to the wall and getting his people out of the cold and into hope. A chance. Yeah, I agree with all that. And I appreciate that Pat is trying to bring a more nuanced view to this. To us freedom fighters on the podcast. And I think that what you're seeing here is conflict that's born out of limited resources. And those resources in this moment happen to be the land south of the wall, safety there, and the clashing of different cultures. And like you said, it's not just assimilation.

There's concessions on both sides, right? That's how there's compromising and peace getting to know one another as people and by seeing each other as people learning to adjust and work to live together and i think that's hard that's why there's a lot of violence today right like it's not as simple as that a lot of these things are much more complicated but the others i don't think it's as simple as some have pointed out that they are standing as a metaphor for climate change i don't think it's as simple as some have pointed out that they are standing as a metaphor for climate change. I don't think that's the case at all. But of course, there is an aspect in shade to that as well. And that's what I'm thinking of right now,

right, especially in this cultural, political, like environmental moment in our world, because as climate change, for example, an outside force, right right makes it more difficult for certain groups of people to live where they do creates more disasters destruction right that leads to limited resources and rising conflict and i think that you you see that in the storyline a little it's one way to examine that story. And I think that as we see it throughout John's chapters, it's addressing one aspect of when George keeps talking about Aragorn's tax policy. He's like, what happened to all the baby orcs?

All right. And that's what he's trying to say here. Like, yes, some of the wildlings, some of them are violent, like Rattleshirtattle shirt who sucks but what about all the rest of them the women the men and the children who are not who are not like that and i mean the lack of children right like you said as you look around they've all died they have no future these people have burnt their gods their future all at a chance of getting south and not all of them. And not all of them are violent. Not all of them are those people. And then at the same time, I mean, Stannis came north looking for an enemy to prove himself,

right? And Stannis' settling of the free folk in the north and making that deal with them, it wasn't out of the goodness of his heart. It wasn't to bring peace between people. It was because he had nothing better to do. And this was the task in front of him. Yeah. You know, it wasn't, it was defend the wall and come north against, you know,

Mance's big armies. But really, it was a chance at exerting power. Yeah, it was an exhibition of power. That's also what I was thinking. It wasn't planned. It wasn't like, let me think about how the free folk can best benefit the realm and fit in. It was, yes, well, build my castle better at the Nightfort. Yeah. Whereas Jon is thinking of like, all right, what can I do to make the Free Folk fit in better and help them contribute? It's a complex situation. And it hasn't even been solved in real life, right? I don't expect

George to come up with a magical, beautiful answer in his story. To do so would be unrealistic. And to be fair, I think that George does show us the closest thing to an answer that we all have. For this group of people in this world. Yes. Yeah, I mean, in general, in this story, he shows humanity, right? He shows people that bind together because of humanity. You know, the lone wolf. Yeah, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives humanity. And you see it in shows like The Good Place, you see it in a lot of different media these days that there is something good in humanity, something that is inherently good, deep within our soul that wants to help other people and does well when we are helped. And there's a line that always rang with me from the show that wasn't in the books,

but Mira Reid says it. And, you know, it's that line about helping people and how people will always need to be helped. It doesn't mean they're not worth helping. Yeah. I know it's a show line, but I feel like it really kind of captures that. Like, that's the only solution that we know as humanity. And for now, banding together and protecting your fellow person and trying to understand where the shoes have been yeah i

think that's the best you can do yeah exactly it's seeing other people as people that's when you start losing humanity when you stop seeing them as people and i think that's something that's yeah probably going to be highlighted for denys as she goes forward and how she views different things. I mean, we see her as a person of the people right now. What's going to happen going forward when she comes back as the dragon? Will she change? Will Jon change when he comes back from the dead? There's a lot of these questions up in the air of personalities and what they'll be like and what changes people. You see Lady Stoneheart consumed by this vengeance cat who repressed so much in her life in this society that was sexually shameful.

You know, just shamed her. And she was brought up in it and it slaughtered her, right? It took her like a lamb to the slaughter. She went in. She married a dude. He got his head chopped off. She gave up everything. I mean, like, she had some tragedy shit.

All because she couldn't love a motherless child no i hated that i had to i had to put it in there for you just for you you know like there's just so many you had to bring balance to the force one good line from the show one bad one exactly you get me but that's these characters that's how you understand these characters and what they're about and i think it's just a delicate balance to the force. Likeones when the dothraki are pillaging one of the other towns and she says this is the price of the iron throne and that's what she's telling herself and it'll be less the idea that they're not human more the idea of this is a necessary sacrifice or price a la stannis so well and that's more what i mean not them i'm talking about yeah

the others i mean not the others the other. The other others. The people. The humans. The other humans. The humans that aren't under her army and command. The fleshy, meaty humans who are not made of ice. Yeah. Well, speaking of Daenerys, she is starting off our lightning round today. Yes. Daenerys commands those affected by the bloody flux to be cleaned up by her people and refuses to give his dar his wedding wish of opening the fighting pits.

by her people and refuses to give his Nara his wedding wish of opening the fighting pits. Later, she learns that buying peace from the Yunkai is not quite so easy, and neither is denying Dario Nara's purple mustachioed dick. I think it's his- It's canon.

No, his mustache is gold. His dick has a mustache, too, though. Is it purple? And are you saying that the curtains don't match the drapes sometimes? I mean, they change. No, because the- so his mustache is gold, his hair and his too, though. Is it purple? And are you saying that the curtains don't match the drapes sometimes? I mean, they change. No, because the, so his mustache is gold. His hair and his beard, though, are blue. So it's fascinating if he's chosen one different other color for his dick.

The three heads. Well, I mean, yes, but sometimes it's purple. He changes it. He changes his dye. I know. And honestly, if you bleach your hair that badly, you should change your dye. Like, you should get the most out of your color. Anyways, the Prince of Winterfell,

you're invited to a wedding between the North's prize gem, Ramsay Bolton, nay Snow, and his bride, Lady Arya Stark, nay Jane Poole. Wait a second, what? After what's sure to be a pride-inspiring ceremony, check out the display of abuse and horror at the end.

Damn. Yeah, it sucks. Those Theon chapters were... A trek. That was a trip. It's a little traumatizing, truly. It is. The Watcher.

Balon Swann's arrival in Doran is met with lies and... Dornish gold. Or swell. He drinks them down well. is met with lies and Dornish gold. Or swill. He drinks them down well. Doran reveals the Dornish master plan, but not the Dornish master plan. What do you mean? Don't you think Doran has a-

Anyway, so John VIII, in John VIII, John sets Val off on a RPG quest to bring back a giant's babe, then has to treat with three wise men later himself. Yes. I still cannot get over that.

For a while, I forgot. Like, people thought it was giant's babe. It's giant's babe. Hell yeah, it's giant's babe. Yes. So the chapter begins with Val wrapped up in bearskin at the gate with a half-blind Garen awaiting her, and Molly and Ed are guarding her. Val is cool with the half-blind horse, though, because

she knows where to go. John's like, you don't have to go. You can stay here and be really comfortable in your tower, where you have men guarding you from being raped, even though they could, too. So we don't know. You could just not go, but if you did, you do know the forest better than

anyone, so... And you do know Dormin better than anyone. So it'd be great if you went. So you kind of have to go. It'd be sweet for me. In fact, like I, Jon Snow, can't actually ask you to do this. But if you say you're going to, I could just be like, Stannis, she's very willful. Like that's the whole feel here. And it'd be really great if you came back with Dormin too.

That'd be sick. Real good for me. He's not actually worried for her, but he is worried when it concerns the others, because they are afoot. They are. They're there, and she knows it. But I do like this line that Val says, right? Of the woods not harboring any

ghosts for her, as it does for Men of the Night's Watch. And on one hand, yes. This is the land she grew up on. why would any of the ghosts be mad about her returning to it but on the other i do i'm thinking about this in the context of ned who is actually one of the ghosts that haunts john's story because ned as you all remember from the chapters who dad you know dad he was haunted by the ghosts of people that he lost and like that he couldn't save he was haunted by a lot of ghosts in his own home and i kind of wonder like does val not feel that way about dala she feels it a little bit about yarrow jarrow of whom she asked john like so what happened with him? Or maybe she just feels comfort, right, that Dala is out there. Maybe she thinks that Dala died not really in the woods and wrongly out here. I don't know. Or maybe Val just goes through the five stages of grief, like, gets to acceptance way faster than any of us do which is fine i commend that i do think it's a lot

of displacement right like she's been made to flee her home the real woods that she knew the wall is where jarl died that's where her ghost is she doesn't want to be here at castle black she doesn't want to see that big hulking hunk of ice and think about everyone they lost yeah not just jarl but the people before that went trying to range and trying to figure out how they could get their people to safety. Her brother-in-law-esque thing that she doesn't know is still alive. Yeah, I mean,

saving Tormund might be a great thing for her in her mind, right? Like, saving these people. A big portion of her people could be with Tormund. Tormund and his kids, like, she knows these people. Yeah. They're families. They have cookouts in the summer. Snows. Yeah.

Yeah. Hey, you wanna have this rack of snow beast? Yeah, Tormund. Come on over, Torwind. Yeah, Tormund's like a friend to her. He was there in the tent at the beginning. Yeah. Cracking jokes, ruining plans. Making things work well for Jon, yeah val is stocked up with food for this trip she plans to return by the next full moon the moon's

currently half full and their goal of course as we kind of spoiled is tormented and getting him to the cause and then we get this passage from john. Do not fail me, he thought. I feel like you're not committing to the Jon voice right now. It's just like we talked about that for review and now I'm self-conscious. Oh, I think we need to commit. You guys, we got a four-star review on iTunes that didn't like my Jon voice, and I understand. But it's not like my fault. Eliana makes me.

I do. I literally stop her every time. And I make her do it like at the beginning she just like did that as a one-off but i was like no you gotta do it it's not her fault it's really mine it's my podcast and i like to bring joy into my life and this brings me joy do not take this from me do not foul me he thought or stannis will have my head. Are you happy? Yes, thank you. Do I have your word that you will keep our princess closely, the king had said, and Jon had promised that he would.

Val is no princess, though. I told him that half a hundred times. It was a feeble sort of evasion, a sad rag wrapped around his wounded word. His father would never have approved. I am the sword that guards the realms of men, John reminded himself, and in the end that must be worth more than one man's honor. The road beneath the wall was as dark and cold as the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent. Two things. First thing that I want to bring up is that this is the passage that I won't stop quoting for the past like 20 chapters

with the eye on the sword that guards the realms of men, John reminded himself. And in the end, that must be worth more than one man's honor. That's it. This is the quote.

This is the chapter. Everyone ear horns. It's not the chapter. This is John. This is John's story. This is him. But yeah, that's literally It's not the chapter. This is Jon. This is Jon's story. This is it. This is him. But yeah, that's literally the whole thing. That's his circle. That's his arc.

Here's the start. Here's the finish. We did it! But then, I love this language of the road beneath the wall was as dark and cold of the belly of an ice dragon and as twisty as a serpent. I also was waiting for the third part to be as stabby as a dagger in the dark. I was like, ah, ah, ah, where's it going?

Because it felt like it was going to John's cold ice dragon belly with a dagger. Yeah, it does feel like that, especially with the whole belly. I thought it too. I was like, oh. But they did use the word belly, I guess. Stomach, whatever.

Same thing. It's literally the same thing. I also like this quote in the exchange because between John letting Val go and the reminder that John switched the babies, which we're going to get to in a second, I think what we're

seeing is that, in regards to Stannis, the people who admire Stannis, maybe even the most, are also those who are most likely to go behind his back and disobey him. You got Jon and you got Davos. And they both have very good reasons for doing this thing, because they're afraid that

Stannis is going to sacrifice the children. Or, like, Jon has his reason of, well, it'd be really sick if we could get Tormund over here and more people on the side of the living, you know, not on that side where they might die more

likely. And later in this chapter, we're gonna see a couple other characters and it's like those who are most likely to actually follow Stannis in the Bay his wishes are portrayed as the ones who are least honorable in terms of how honor

is portrayed to the reader, not chivalry slash the social honor within the terms of Westeros. Because, like, the folks that Jon meets with in a bit, like, they're all scandalized at Jon for disobeying Stannis later in this chapter, but they're the ones who, like, don't like Stannis and are jazzed about him and all,

and were like, Jon should be, like, really be hanging out with Stannis. And they're like, oh, how dare don't like Stannis and are jazzed about him and all. And we're like, Jon should be, like, really be hanging out with Stannis. And they're like, oh, how dare you go against Stannis' orders. Like, chill out, bro. They're obviously looking for, like, anyone to be a leader except Jon. Yeah. They're like, but what about that guy that was here for that couple day from corporate? Yeah, you mean, Jon, you mean my other dad?

My sixth dad? Which dad? My sixth dad? Which dad? I like what you said, though, about those are the ones who go against him. And Davos and John obviously have a good moral compass for the most part, right? They have a good head-ish on their shoulders. Well, thankfully, their heads are both still attached for all we know, as far as the Winds of Winter goes. But they do have good heads on their shoulders. all we know as far as the wind's winter goes but they do have good heads on their shoulders and it makes me think about what we're going to see in the wind's winter and a dream of spring when

it comes to the people counseling Daenerys like Tyrion and Davos and Jon presumably um it's going to be really interesting to see how they analyze her plans when we get that first hand in those POVs yeah they're like Tyrion and Jorah don't necessarily have her best interests in mind. No, but Davos is gonna be interesting. If he does end up advising Dany in some sort of fashion, I'm interested to see what he thinks of this girl, because we don't see Davos

regard woman besides Melisandre in any weird way. The Melisandre thing is probably, again, just like with Jon, I'm sure when we get to Davos, we'll look at that and say, oh, this is probably what he'll see about Dany. That'd be interesting. That's gonna be very interesting.

I can't wait for that. Because how many times does he regard Melisandre as this terrible, fiery woman? I mean, his first impression of Melisandre was what? Her burning his gods and then poisoning an old... She didn't poison Cressen. Technically Cressen was like, we're both

doing this, but like, it's not the best first impression, you know? No, bad first impressions. And like, obviously you and me were like, Melisandre girl, we get you're in a hard position and not making great choices all the time, but doing the best you can. Uh, ish.

And I get it, whatever. I do think she time, but doing the best you can. Ish. And I get it. Whatever. I do think she is trying to do the best she can. Yeah. How good that is, we don't know. We'll figure it out. We'll find out in the next few books. A few books.

Dolores Ed leads them as Molly opens the gate, which lets Val out, and she surveys the land ahead, and she tastes the air. She says it tastes sweet. John is like, I can only taste the cold. Ah, well, good news about your further chapters. Yeah, he never felt the

cold. He's disquieted by his missing rangers who have still not returned. He's like, well, obviously they're dead and now I'm full of guilt and now I'm sending Val out and she's probably gonna die too. There's this line about her appearance I love and it makes me think too, so get ready, buckle up. The light of the half moon turned Val's honey blonde hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow.

Hmm. Hmm. That doesn't sound like anyone I know. No. hmm that doesn't sound like anyone i know no and okay look we all know according to all of the seasons of game of thrones that anytime you're in the north you're gonna look blue i get it that's just like that's literally canon that's what hbo and david and dan taught us that if you live in the north you're going to have a blue tinge to your body at all times so that might be it but we did talk a lot about the melisandre and egret and danny parallels and similarities as far as scent and fieriness last week and obviously it's all over i mean there's a chapter denarius 10

in a game of thrones i think you know that chapter well right you what didn't isn't that the one you did for not a cast or no you did chapter nine so the one right after that there's this line it's a segue and there's this line after that the other one that i'm gonna quote that's more important right now is doria brushed her hair until it fell like a river of liquid silver down her back they scented her with spice flour and cinnamon that's straight up melisandre as far as spice flour and cinnamon, right? And egret. We talked about this last week. That's literally, yeah, PSL.

But her hair was like a river of liquid silver. And there's a ton of cool imagery for Daenerys as well. Not just fiery, not just spice flour and cinnamon. Even as far as her very first chapter the old woman washed her long silver pale hair and gently combed out all the snags all in silence and it's just not just her appearance that's described as silver and pale but viserys is as well viserys should have been conspicuous with his pale skin silvery hair and beggar's rags but she did not see him anywhere and of course she's usually

associated with fire but her in the north is going to bring out so much lunar discussion she's obviously surrounded by stars and moons all the time she's described as the moon of caldrogo's life she washes the stars and moon out in the grasslands in a dance with dragons and in the waste uh she stares at the comet we all know everything's blue that's what hbo taught me okay dabba dee dabba die yes exactly this is definitely a nod to what we're gonna expect to see of her in the north you know as far as imagery yeah i think i think that's it's all that and also that john has a type john's like i ain't got no type points bad bitches is the only thing that I like like Val and Ygritte and Danny yeah and what his sister

no oh my god no your sister yes I agree John reminds Val then of what she must tell Tormund and they exchange a very intimate goodbye frost in the air Val kissing his cheeks being like this is foreshadowing

for your later love interest, John. She whispers it into his ear. He didn't quite catch it, that's why it's not in the chapter. She asks John one last question. If he killed her Jarl? And John responds, no, it was the wall who killed him, and he says that you gotta

return sooner or later, right? You have to, I mean, you have to do it for the baby and she's like whoa john that's not our baby that's crass's kid that's boat baby actually yeah she's like i don't have anything to do with that child i like that she's smirking this whole time though she's like yeah i don't care for this child at all whatsoever. Major Sundari vibes. And she feigns disinterest, but John's like, no, you sing to the kid. I heard you. She's like, no, I was singing for myself.

She's like, alright, no, you're right. I'm singing for the little monster, because she's Lady Gaga also. Wait, this came out in 2011. Is it an influence, George? George. George. Tell us about how Lady Gaga plays a role in the song of ice and fire i love that she does she calls him monster for his milk name she's like well you know he doesn't

have a name so i had to give him a fake name that boy is a monster yeah well it's because they're not allowed to name the children until they're two years old and this is what's called yeah the milk name until they're allowed to do so in wildling culture it's worth noting that we never see john or any other character tell val about the babies being switched which means she figured it all out on her own that's kind of a testament to her attention skills right But she noticed that her own nephew, of course, her own blood, after all, was switched, so I get it. She cares. It's her sister's child.

And she might bear no love for Monster, Crasher's son, which kind of ends up sticking as a name for him, but I do think, to an extent, she was kind of fine with maybe knowing that Dala's son was switched because at least it makes him safer a little bit and maybe that's kind of Ned like of her I don't know and Ned just like acquiescing to John's decision to be like all right I guess you can

go to the wall he wasn't really pleased about it and he was like displeased with Catelyn but also he's like maybe this is better that way he's like not anywhere near Robert at all and along with the Val's perceptiveness I kind of wonder if it had to do with like maybe she's the only one who noticed because of the baby's ages and no one else was really paying attention because Dalla's child would have been a newborn basically at that time whereas Gilly's kid according to a spreadsheet compiled by westeros users and would probably be about two months older at this time at the time of the birth of dallas child and like that doesn't seem like it's a big difference but

infant development is like way wilder than i thought based on my co-worker's kid who's already like doing stuff I'm like didn't you just bring this child like wasn't that just a baby not doing anything a few weeks ago and she's like yeah no now he's walking anyway but like two months some of the differences that would be noticeable are like stronger sucking ability uh if the kid's able to like kind of hold their head up rolling around which shows like more more strength right versus a newborn and kicking more strongly so could be that val saw these and was like this is different well there's actually a lot to unpack there because he is noted as being pretty big in john 11 later in this book this is a reread

you guys so it's not a spoiler monster uh john says to val when she spoilers comes back because this is a reread there's no such thing as spoilers twice as big as when you left us and thrice as loud when he wants the tea you can hear him wail in east watch that right there is one big thing to look at that john says that. That's noticeable, right? That this kid is like that. However, I think we need to reread that because this kid is passing as Mance and Dala's kid, right? So I want to backtrack it because obviously we know that Monster should be a healthy kid.

Craster was a powerful looking man in his prime and gilly's frame is described as being slim nothing more nothing less but she's probably not short by any means and she probably is a little curvaceous mance is only of middling height and he's broader in the chest and shoulders but no means is he described as burly or thick and dala as she's similar to val is likely more slender and curvy and lean. And Monster's a big boy, and he's also been known to be dominant on the titties. So let me take you to Samwell 1 in A Feast for Crows, because this is an interesting exchange. Gilly and Sam are talking in the courtyard, and Gilly says,

Dalla's boy, he cries when he wants the tea. Mine, mine hardly ever cries. Sometimes he gurgles, but her eyes filled with tears. I have to go. It's past time I fed them. I'll be leaking all over myself if I don't go. She rushed across the yard, leaving Sam perplexed behind her. gilly's upset because the baby's switching right but she just told sam that her baby hardly cries and that it was dallas boy that cried in the middle of the night because he cries when he wants the teat yeah but while val's gone it's monster crying for the teat right in this scene gilly's playing off that hearse doesn't cry because she knows the journey ahead requires the belief that the baby they have is her own, not Eamon Steel's song. Oh. Yup. I put this together today and I was like,

oh shit, because Monster is crying now. Yeah, she's trying to sell the lie. I see. That's a really good point. That's super sad. Yup. It's not even just like, no one asked for this information from her.

She's just trying to volunteer it, right? She's trying to do what John told her to do. She's afraid. Yeah. And, oh man. Yeah, it's sad. And then every time she does it, she just remembers. That's the saddest.

And I'm worried about Monster. I'm worried about that boy all the time. I don't know why. Why would you be worried about Monster. I'm worried about that boy all the time. I don't know why. Why would you be worried about him? So, speaking of people being worried for him, Val tells Jaune to keep Monster safe for Gilly's sake as well as her own. And to keep Monster away from the Red Woman because she sees all. She thinks that Melisandre knows.

Yeah. And there's this back and forth she sees things in her fires aria he thought hoping it was so ashes and cinders kings and dragons who who's what does it mean what does it mean dragons again for a moment john could almost see them too coiling in the night their dark wings outlined against a sea of flame i love that line it's some good work good job george and i can't wait to see them like outlined in darkness with their wings against a sea of flame is that a brief dragon dream i don't know maybe john the drunken it wouldn't be surprising if like because he had sees some things right through ghosts a little yeah it wouldn't be surprising i mean he has

a seer gene so john expresses doubt it's a little malisandra doing all because like i got away with it and val's like i don't know that you did all right then he's like then why would she just let me go and val says fire is a fickle thing no one knows which way a flame will go i loved this line but immediately the first thing i thought of today when i read it was every time a new targaryen's born he said the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land no one knows which way a flame will go. Anyway the wind blows. Doesn't really matter to Danny.

Or Quentin. Cause he's Danny. Do do do do do do. Yeah, I think that's absolutely part of what she's referencing. Also. Yeah. Now I'm just like, George, I see it. I still don't think she's going to be mad

we've discussed no i don't think mad i don't think that rule is true anyways i think it's stupid because we know what contributed to aries we know duskendale i mean obviously he had tendencies before but when tendencies get pushed and push comes to shove, when your feet are raked over the coals, no pun intended. Yeah. Val then reminds John of some of the last things that Dala told him, of a sword without a hilt. But he thinks that Melisandre is still right.

Maybe some magic is better than none. And so then he watches Val go and Ed says, That girl's crazy because the air is cold and not sweet. True. True Ed. Big mood. Like, it's like the cold where your nostrils freeze if you guys have never been to a place where your nostrils freeze where you get very thin shards of icy glass in your nose you don't know i don't want that feeling but also i will say sometimes i think that cold weather is better for a hangover i like cold weather better than hot weather only because you can put more clothes on you can't take more off now we're gonna rehash this argument every every episode every episode yep molly asks john if he knows what the

men are saying of him for letting val go and john's like yes i know what kind of shit they're talking they're calling me a half wildling turncloak who's selling the realm to raiders cannibals and giants and inside his head john's like well they're not wrong but uh molly's like standing there and he's like molly words are wind so the knights watch calling john half a wildling and of course him always being a crow to the wildlings right it's the same as how john never felt stark enough being the bastard kid. But everyone else still sees him at the Night's Watch. He's never, like, fully

a member of the Night's Watch. He is for, like, all of five minutes, and they're like, you're half-wildling. Or they're like, nope, you're a little lordling Stark. And he's never truly one thing, and that's still part of John's identity crisis. And again, we keep saying it. It's gonna get worse. You're gonna get even more confused, John. It's gonna still part of John's identity crisis. And again, we keep saying it, it's going to get worse. You're going to get even more confused,

John. It's going to be sick. God, poor John. Oh, it sucks. And that's the thing is he's rejected from the place that was supposed to deal with him,

right? Like this is the last place you send your kid. Cause they don't come back from this place. They stay there forever. So like, this was it. This was the last chance. Nailed it. Nailed it. And John should have been more

of a nerd and just become a maester. Yeah, fucked up, John. You fucked up. Should have been like us. John thinks about the emptying woods and how there's no animals to eat in them, and he's like, wow, we might never see a spring again. We might never see a spring again we might never see a spring again ed brings food back to john it's three duck eggs in drippings bacon sausages blood pudding and

half a loaf of bread that's a feast this is a feast right it sounds good too he eats the bread and half an egg and then the raven takes his bacon, and he's like, thief, and the bird's like, yeah, I agree, except really that just means they go, thief! Do you remember how there was a constellation a bit ago? Constellation of the Thief and the Moon Maid. Or is it Milk Maid? I don't remember. It's a Milk Maid.

Milk Maid. Anyway, so I am like, wow, wow three eggs three eggs of the duck gone i didn't even notice the three duck eggs that's so funny it's probably not significant but no i think he did it on purpose that bastard i think about john's food all the time and how much food he's not eating and wasting eat your food food, John. But also three eggs. Okay. Well, Ed returns to John with Bowen Marsh, Othell Yarwick, and

Septon Selador, and he's like immediately in his head, he's like, oh great, people are talking. There must be more than several yarns being spun downstairs. And Septon Selador's confused, he's groggy. Othell yarwick looks like he's digesting something that's not digestible and bowen marsh is angry per use and john offers them

food and drink which the men are agreeable towards so like yes i'll take your food so at least he's a remembering his manners which if you're the boss of someone i know my company at work has this rule it's unspoken unsaid but like if you take out an inferior someone i know my company at work has this rule it's unspoken unsaid but like if you take out an inferior person that doesn't make as much money as you you should probably you know give them food to pay for them yeah so he does offer them food and drink they're agreeable but also especially since he's been talking about it a little bit in this book i think this is a big guess right thing right here. He offers them his meat and mead and they accept it.

It's a bond. Yeah. And I mean, it's smart to do so based on everything that's been going on. It's not a guarantee, but. He's trying to obviously show them he means good. He's open to chatting about some of the things he's been doing and he knows

they're here to bitch him out and he's here to take it you know just bend over and take it so it reminds me of the conversation he has with mance in a storm of swords john one where he says that if mance had been discovered in the hall in winterfell and man says well my head would have been cut off by your dad but once i had eaten at his board i was protected by guest right the laws of hospitality are as old as the first men and sacred as a heart tree and then later in that passage there's this little sentence that i just feel kind of goes with uh the next thing i'll talk about which is guest writer no john snow knew he walked on rotten ice here one false step and he might plunge through, into cold water

enough to stop his heart. Weigh every word before you speak it, he told himself. He took a long drought of mead to buy time for his answer. So, of course, the very end in John's last chapter in the whole entire series, since he's dead forever and there's no coming back. Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. For the watch, he punched John in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

In a way, Marsh kind of broke guest right. Did he partake of? Yeah. Marsh agrees. Here. Here, yeah. I mean, it's not the same as like coming to a feast but obviously we'll get to it and talk about it in a bit because i do want to come back to this with some of the stuff that happens this chapter because there's huge setup going on in this chapter i mean this is huge setup for the very last chapter for john yeah i think it's what you

said and it's george's way of sort of trying to up the ante from the Red Wedding, right? Because that was kind of opposing. We all knew that the Freys were suspect, right? Opposing and betraying Robb and Catelyn. So John's just next in line

of the Starks to be betrayed, I guess. And it's so funny because in rereading it and seeing how John's so wary of everything after what happens to J.R. Mormont you're like oh yeah it's so obvious but at the same time like that's what it is it's as opposed to it being a suspect opposite faction it's his own men yeah and I think that's what makes it so big right like yes the phrase were technically rob's own men but not really he knew he didn't have the phrase right like he knew walder was a bitch-ass bitch everyone knew walder was a bitch-ass bitch he just like crossed his

fingers and hoped he caught him on the right day yeah whereas like in all of these chapters right john keeps kind of joking at it but i don't know if it's really a joke or not but he keeps being like well if you don't like what it is then you're gonna get a chance at a new lord commander and what he's saying is like then you're all just gonna have to off me and Bo and Marsh is like alright bet bet

auntie up so and then John invites them all to get it off their chest alright you guys are here about val right and they're like yes but also other things here are my list of grievances and john's like okay but first i too have concerns total boss card dude yeah yeah he pulls the you can't bring any complaints without offering some improvements as well. Card that bosses like to play. LOL. And Othell, I hate that so much.

It's like, you're the boss, fuck you. And it says to Othell, how's the work at the night fort? You know, the sacrifice den. Selyse is unhappy with her quarters and she wants to move in, according to Axel Florent, her hand. Because she has a hand. She does.

Lord knows why. Lord of Light knows why. So Yarmulke respondsvik responds that yeah we actually have most of it restored and restored and we're roofing the kitchen uh salise could maybe be happy with the remodeling maybe but it'll be like a few years before we finish the garage and the guest house and turned it into a proper castle he's like i think we could do it though with more builders john is like well you're in luck because i have a vegetarian giant named one one and he has tireless strength and he can do the work of a dozen men but othell declined saying the other men would not like this 10 foot illegal alien around them and john is happy because he likes one one and he likes 1-1,

and he likes to learn about his history and culture while speaking to him and Leathers, and wishes Sam could write it all down. Yeah, Othel's being like a huge dick here. And the text is actually telling us this, because the way this is all constructed is very noteworthy. It's priming the reader for how they should read A, this interaction with Othel, and B, all of the other suggestions and ideas because the way this is all constructed is very noteworthy. It's priming the reader for how they should read, A, this interaction with Othell,

and B, all of the other suggestions and exchanges in this conversation. Because when these three men bring up their grievances, they're all based on misunderstandings, but most of all, they're based on prejudice. Because Jon thinks this and he immediately is like, oh, it's really interesting because Wanda and the giants giants turns out they don't really eat meat at all they can down a shit ton of roots he loves vegetables and then yarik's excuse of verbatim what he says while he's stuttering and telling john like oh no i don't want a giant is giants eat human flesh i

think john's like, uh, alright. And he never bothers to correct him on this, fascinatingly. But that the men get something as big as this, pun intended, as always, it's always intended, wrong, shows that the rest of their concerns are all

very misplaced in terms of the bigger picture. And I think that this is most obvious with Satan, in my opinion, but we'll get to that in a second. We also have this other quote of, that was not to say that he was blind to the danger one-one represented. The giant would lash out violently when threatened, and those huge hands were strong enough to rip a man apart.

He reminded John of Hodor. Hodor, twice as big, twice as strong, and half as clever. There's a thought to sober even Sept and Selador, but if torment has giants with him, one wig, one derp, one, may help us treat them. So there's a line in this

huge hand strong enough to rip a man apart. Is this some Hodor foreshadowing for protecting Bran in the cave? i think what makes it dark is i feel like hodor wouldn't want to do that yeah i feel like that too and i know the show covered it a little of bran uh getting into his skin a little bit to get him to move um and i know we're gonna see that a little deeper as we go along however i don't know i just felt like that line and talking about Hodor was so

interesting here and so connected. I don't know. I think so. I think that's something to remind you of how strong he is. To note, Ed returns with eggs and sausages and wine, and Marsh impatiently waits for him to leave. I know, I wish Ed would come

here with all that. Yeah. Marsh disapproves of some of the other actions john has been taking like sending away ed and iron emmet who are well liked and great to staff the castle replacing them with leathers the savage as master arms he's upset the office isn't being filled by an ex-knight or someone well on the path to mastery in arms john agrees leathers is savage and not as patient as he'd like, but that his strength and resolve may be important to teach men before, you know, the big one happens someday. And by the big one, I mean the fight against the others for everyone's life. And Marsh is like, but he's a wildling.

And John's like, he's our brother. He said the words. He can teach swordcraft. And John then counters it wouldn't hurt them to learn some of the old tongue and the ways of the free folk and Marsh argues the men don't trust him. John wants to question that but he knows it's not going to do him any good at this point so he asks for more

complaints instead. In John's defense, none of the new men or any of the new recruits trusted Alistair Thorne because he was a dick. Alistair Thorne was bad for morale I think Weathers is better for morale. I think Leathers is better for morale. I understand. Iron Emmett was chill, too. He seemed like a chill-ass

dude. Also, I agree. He had to send him elsewhere. Yes and no. I think that there's merit. We haven't been making this argument. We've brought it up every now and then. Jon shouldn't have sent Iron Emmett away, not because he should have kept a knight or master-at-arms, but because Jon needed allies.

Yes. If he had kept some of his other allies, we probably wouldn't have had this issue. But the problem is that he didn't. And so sending everyone away is indeed bad. Now, that being said, I mean, John's just trying to strengthen the watch. He doesn't realize what he's doing. But he's trying to strengthen the watch while, unfortunately, weakening it.

Weakening his role. Weakening himself, yeah. At what cost? At what cost? Selador then says that the boy Jon needs to make his steward and squire satin. He's like, ew, we don't want a male sex worker. Oh no.

Then he uses the term he's a painted catamite from the brothels of Oldtown. And Jon's like, yeah, well, you're a fucking drunk. He doesn't say it aloud, but he thinks it. And he's like, you guys really don't get the whole all your sins are forgiven and now you're a brother of the Night's Watch thing do you like that's the whole thing and none of you will fucking get it yeah all of you like a bunch of you were traitors

how do you think this works y'all should be dead you didn't come to the wall just because like someone was like send my son who's so great like it's like Bowen Marsh this isn't a boys club well it is but this isn't like your boys club is great like it's like bow and marsh this isn't a boys club like you know well it is but this isn't like your boys club is the thing it's over for you no more scheming like i said earlier this is the last place people send their children one person was like you could have my son

because he's so great but also it was the last place and that was that was bronzian royce yep he was like the last one who felt that way to be fair waymar was a little like i don't know yeah a little much like he probably was like please just take him let him be honorable and stop like being annoying and putting on plays at home yeah make him stop being i don't know acting like he's a shit yeah like you're right and also i don't know we've been seeing it throughout john's chapters especially especially, like, in his dealings with Marsh, but it is more pronounced here, right? Like, how he

thinks, you know, about Selador, like, being a drunk, right? He'll think one thing, have that flash of a thought, then say something more courteous that actually, like, makes sense and is not insulting. And I think John realizes he needs to do this kind of appeasing and cajoling to get people on his side, you know you brought up how John thought about asking them like oh which of the men have

problems with this but then he doesn't actually do it he's like that's not gonna get me anywhere and we actually see him do this in his interactions with Stannis as well yeah I think that dissonance between the interiority and the exteriority is supposed to show us politicking. But George also uses it to great effect in a lot of the other character POVs. We see it in Sansa and Arya's chapters a lot. It's mostly used for survival

in hiding their true thoughts. In Sansa's story, though, that is always tinged with a bit of that courtesy aspect that's a big part of her story. In Theon's, which we covered intensely, it's used to show that disparity between his inner self and the identity that's been forced on him between Theon and Reek

and how those even clash internally, right? With Jon, I think there's an aspect of some of what he thinks in his interiority that I sometimes think, personally, I'm like, I think Stannis would have said that aloud to someone he would have he would have straight up told that man he's drunk or been like who who's saying this all right this is what we're gonna do with them but also like the difference is stannis wasn't like john right he wasn't ever a bastard like yeah he might have felt ostracized or yeah he felt ostracized and shunned but as we see with the way all these people right

now are like trying to stay in his good graces and he's not even there and are worried about what he's gonna do like sure he was never king or firstborn but he had enough power that people wanted to cater to him and i think that's that and like his aspect of just saying saying that shit like it's probably also why he's not great at making fast friends and allies but whatever right it's the same thing as what Rhaenyra versus Aegon II like Stannis and Renly both of them sucked but

Aegon II had a better PR team yeah which isn't saying much they all sucked but I mean like Rhaenyra obviously after a while she just didn't need to want to play nice. I mean, good for her. I wouldn't have either.

But same with Stannis. He doesn't play nice. There's no playing for Stannis. For Stannis, there's none of this politicking in between breaths and thinking about it. It's, well, why would he do that? I would do this because I'm Stannis. For Jon, especially with that. I mean, there's that tick in the back

every every couple paragraphs you're reading egret in the back of his head and him thinking you know nothing john snow yeah at the same time as he's internally berating all these guys he's berating himself exactly which is mood oh. John tells the men that Satin's quick, he's clever, he reads and he writes, and also he's your brother. Way fucking nice. Yeah, Mom John said so.

Marsh pipes up and he's like, traditionally, the squire of the Lord Commander is a boy of good birth, being groomed for command. You can't honestly believe the night swatch would follow a sex worker into battle so much to unpack there so much obviously the stigma and sex work but beyond that uh i'm not going to go into that at the wall because obviously bowen marsh isn't that kind of guy that's an ally um obviously from this clearly not but like it's it's like the systems are

supposed to stop at the wall but yet here we are yeah they just like don't seem to get it that the whole point is and here he's he's basically giving up the jig right he's saying like that the meritocracy thing was a fucking lie about anyone could become Lord Commander, right? He's telling them, no. He's saying what was basically subtext in Book 1, bringing it to the forefront now. And also with that, starting simple. Confirmation that what Sam told John was right. He was being groomed for command.

We all knew it, but also, confirmation. I mean, not only that only that like anyone can be john did and you may all think that like oh john's friends got him in but no it was actually most of you guys like that's who got him in there was no russians to interfere here like this was just straight up like there kind of was there was sam there was sam lied to both apart to two parties but i mean yes he lied but also at the same time it wasn't really lying it was like disinformation maybe light insider trading and he just had some like kind of misleading facebook ads it was honestly reminded me so much of harry potter with the felix felices right like he just goes out there

he gets results after taking he's like i'm gonna down this good luck juice and hope for the best and uh i think that's more of what happened for sam right like he went between the parties was like please just do the right thing dudes like you know lie a little bit but also like just choose john i don't know he lied it was just a little bit it was a a lot, but it was going to last for like weeks otherwise. Okay. I mean, essentially what Sam did, though, is what we keep hearing in Ariane's chapters. But it's not quite a whole kingdom, but to crown him is to kill him.

Yeah. Well, as we see. Jon keeps allowing his temper to flash and tells them some of the worst Night Squatch men that they've had in the past and that Jaor, the previous Lord Commander had left him some good notes on these past offenders like, you know, the guy at Shadow Tower who raped septas and burnt a seven-pointed star

into his flesh for each one he raped which he has stars up and down him or the guy at Eastwatch who's a real character who burned his father's house down and barred the door. All nine of his family members died screaming. Yikes.

Big yikes. I love the response to this right here. Septon Salador drank some wine. Opel Jorvik stabbed a sausage with his dagger bowen marsh sat red-faced the raven flapped its wings and said corn corn kill guess john won won that one won that one though won so Jon won that match, right? And I love the temper flashing because, you know, we say Jon's grown and he has.

He's grown as a character, but he also just kind of has a deeper voice and he isn't like a showman about his anger now. Like a Game of Thrones Jon won. Jon felt anger rise inside him. I'm not your son. A Game of Thrones Jon 3, John's anger flared. A Storm of Swords 9, John swallowed his anger. And then all throughout this chapter, the dragon's awakening is how it feels.

And right here in this moment, it was very much so, oh, okay, that was some, like, dragon anger going on. Ooh, John, settle down. Well, it's finally that he's in the position, right, where he's allowed to show some of that anger. And to be fair, like, and really give him some kudos, he controlled it, right? Like, he calmed his anger and he spoke very clearly. And he was just like, I'm gonna end your bitch ass. Yeah, he came back with very logical arguments instead of calling them bitch ass, which, I mean, I'm not saying Jon would be

wrong for that. He would be perfectly within his rights. Marsh says that Jon obviously knows best. It's basically his version of bless your heart, Jon. And then he changes to the next topic. Alright, so Jon, tell me about the dead changes to the next topic. Alright, so John, tell me about

the dead people in the ice cells. Everyone's getting weirded out. Cause you know, reanimation. Yeah, he's like, this is actually definitely bad for morale, John. Yeah. Your little science experiment.

Marsh is like, why are we wasting all these men on guarding them? They're dead. Unless you think, and John finishes his sentence and is like, why are we wasting all these men on guarding them? They're dead. Unless you think, and Jon finishes his sentence, and he's like, that they'll rise? That they'll rise! And then he's like, yeah, that's actually what I hoped for. And as he says that, I guess Septon Selador dribbles wine out of his mouth. Jesus fucking nothing.

Close your eyes and think about it. Septon Selador dribbles wine. I love that part. It's my favorite part of the whole book but so he's like yelling at john he's like whites are an abomination and you can't mean to try to talk to them and john's like i don't know i'm gonna try to learn as much as i can though and he says they were men before they died how much remains the one i slew was intent on killing lord commander mormont plainly it remembered who he was and where to find him a bet thorn and marsh's whites would find john i get it i get it for sure uh and basically i'm imagining these two guys are

checkoff zombies at first i was thinking they have to come out during at least like the ruckus after john's death right like why will we see these guys a ghost pov which sidebar starting to feel like a ghost pov makes sense and could work i don't know what's happening during these chapters but i digress these zombies actually serve of course as a red herring in john's death where the show was like here's your uncle and here's your traitor sign it's the whites that he thinks are happening and going off and he's like oh shit gotta get the whites and then he shows up and it's like no it's mutiny uh no it's it's betrayal john try again betrayal oh yes agree. Give us the ghost POV. George, don't be a coward. Woof woof.

Woof woof. I still, I think that would be great if that was the whole chapter. Woof woof woof woof. I would read it. I really would. You'd read anything at this point, let's be real. I'm coming up with this stupid idea that's not gonna happen, but John's body, while he's not in it, coming back as a white, and then having a white posse an undead posse not happening but my thought from that was actually that john uh

before coming back from the dead goes into other people's dreams just like in spongebob when spongebob goes into other people's dreams you're still on this circle you guys chloe was telling me about this spongebob episode before we recorded this episode and i have not internalized spongebob as well as apparently everyone else in the world really it's just this episode i mean he goes in everyone's dream and messes them all up you should take that and put and make a brand theme with that at some point John knows that Eamon and Sam would understand what he's doing right here trying to learn more from the whites but they're not here unfortunately

also would they I think he's like Eamon would totally get it he's like Sam would be like a little freaked out but also probably get it I think so my lord father used to tell me that a man must know his enemies we understand little of the whites and less about the others we need to learn so like i agree with the idea and the tone and yes john you do need to learn about them

and holding them below for a while and maybe throwing rocks at them is his move, though. Like, he's going to the Safari Zone and using the worst options, is what I'm saying. Aemon isn't coming back. He doesn't know that, but, like, he knows. I'm just putting that out there. Come on, now. You only get one of these things back, right, Jon? You can only have- you can eval, or you can have Aemon come back. You cannot have both.

What about Sam? Add that one to the mix hopefully as we hope and think he will be coming back but there's three he wasn't gonna bat for three three for three two out of three is all right so i mean amon was old all right it's really a miracle the thing is is john doesn't think any of his friends are coming back at this point and that's fine but like these dead men are coming back so he should do what he's good at which is hit them with a sword or a torch just hit them like yeah these guys are definitely coming back John there's nothing you're gonna learn from

them I'm sorry it's not happening I mean I think he thought it was gonna work out right like I've spoiled there's a similar arc with this in Attack on Titan and I get it. I get it. Solidor!

I keep wanting to say Solidor's song. Septon Solidor thinks that this is unwise and promises to pray for wisdom for him from the crone for Jon, and John tells him yes you could all use a little wisdom everyone's just saying bless your heart

bless your heart throughout this entire exchange for all three and in the back of his head he's doing it again he's thinking you know nothing John Snow he sighs and brings up Val and Marsh is pretty dumbfounded that he let her leave

asking like well bro what if she lied okay what if she's not coming back what if something happens to her and she's met with misadventure and Stannis was all like yo don't fuck this up I really think it's fascinating here

though coming back to what you were saying earlier that Salador is so scandalized by the loss of Val and it offending Stannis. Because I think it just goes to show you that despite all his talk of piety and faith to the Seven, if he really, really gave a shit about it, why would he be so quick to acquiesce to the whims of a man who's forcing people to convert to his Red God? to the whims of a man who's forcing people to convert to his Red God, right? That if he's so worried about calling Mother Mola Witch, why is he not out here preaching against Melisandre

right now and calling for the execution of the Queen's men? And I think it's very clear throughout this chapter, it's because Salador is a hypocrite. We saw that he was a coward in previous chapters, but he's really, it really comes to the forefront here. He's concerned only with being near power and upholding those power structures. That's why he's accepted in the faith of the seven and trying to make it work for him as opposed to actually believing. I mean, that's why they're all here right now, right? For the most part, I mean, they're all here because they're worried that their jobs are threatened i think othell your yarmulke's a little different um like a solid or son god damn it septon solidor is

kind of a softer like alistair thorne here right by like wanting that proximity to power and upholding those structures and i don't love awful your rick but I I'm not gonna take away his props because he didn't support Jando's slint he wasn't just about like that kind of power that Alistair and Bowen and Selador were like clearly concerned with and that is coded through their support

of slint I think Othel Yorick had has some elements to him that I think he's really superstitious and that gets in the way of his common sense and ends up becoming part of his prejudices against other people but at the same time like there's an aspect of him that's like well he's the shitty moderate all right yeah i mean honestly he reminds me of like your cute racist grandpa yeah your cute drunk racist grandpa yeah all of them really i mean that's the thing is all three

of them marched down to this office and were like you're telling me that these illegals are taking our jobs and our lands like that's pretty much what this episode right here is what he's doing and it's all different it is so it's all different like shades of that and it's like it's all fear mongering basically and that's literally like they're all just like worked up like well what about my guns and my ammo and it just like ups and gets even worse and we'll get to that at the end of this chapter like at first you're like all right i'll shut up at the dinner table then it like gets real bad yeah like holidays are almost over and then it's like no the holidays are truly over, and then it's like, no, the holidays are truly not even here yet. It's like, no, let's flip the table now, and I'm like, do it, John, do it. Get ready for the redux of your creepy Uncle Bowen Marsh to talk about Trump for ten hours.

John responds, hey, you know, you guys might just get to pick a Lord Commander you like, but until then, you gotta suffer me. He tells them he has Val meeting T meeting torment to go over the night's watch group on that's currently out for good shelter peace all of you fight the common enemy and hold the wall marsh cannot fathom john letting hundreds of thousands of free folks through the wall though saying it's treason to some wildlings savages raiders rapers more beasts than men these people and john's true, but they are men, and they're all going to have to fight winter, the same as the Watch. He then brings up his own counterpoint. An interesting tale he's heard from the Free Folk they brought back from the grove of

Mother Mull, a woods witch who had a vision of ships carrying Free Folk safely across the sea. She's led many Free Folk to Hardhome to pray and await their salvation because it's a sheltered bay with a natural harbor and resources like wood and rock and fish and seals are pretty heavy around the town. But it's also a cursed place, according to Yarwick, and John knows the story well. Hardhome had been close to being its own town, the only one north of the wall, but it was then swallowed by hell 600 years ago. The people were slaughtered for meat or sold

into slavery, depending on what you heard, and the homes and halls were consumed in flames so hot, the watchers to the south thought the sun had risen north. We'll dig into that in a bit, but speaking of Mother Mole, I think we touched on her a little bit in our forgotten characters

patreon episode but i do find the inclusion of mother mole and how much space she's given in this chapter interesting especially because like both religion and messianic figures they're different running ideas throughout the book they intersect a lot but they're not necessarily the exact same one and those are going to become much more important to the current political plot of A Song of Ice and Fire, not just as world building, not just as part of the magic plot. It has actual ramifications for the characters and the kingdoms and how they interact with one another. We see it in the Kingsmoot. We see it in the, spoilers, I'm sorry everyone, the Forsaken chapter and what Euron does

because he fears the power that Aaron has as a respected priest amongst the Ironborn. And the way the people follow Mother Mole into what should be a wasteland in the hopes of salvation, it reminds me of

another figure quite like that towards the beginning of the books the people following a girl that prophecy and religion and belief like they're all going to be thrust onto her following her into the red waste that no one should have been able to survive yeah and i think that we get such interesting exposition here uh the show obviously did hard home and whatever it was a thing uh it was overrated in my opinion you can hear more about my really bad opinions on twitter.com but it just was it was whatever like they were to me like the idea of the lore of it of the slaves you know the slaves

that were here and kept here even in old years and years and years ago, centuries ago. And of course, just that it's a ruin. I mean, it looked like a snowy ruin, but what doesn't in the North in the TV show? So especially the description we get that ashes rained down for half a year after Hardhome's devastation and only burnt bones and devastation remained. Swollen corpses in the water, shrieks from caves. And there's a lot of theories about, I don't know, I guess Hardhome, right? Like what happened? It was 600 years ago. When was that?

What could have possibly happened? And Holloway Division has one that's pretty, pretty well loved. I do like a lot of Holloway Divisions work just because it makes you think. They have a theory called Now I Am Become Death, The Doom of Valyria, and basically talks about how George has written Hardhome to evoke a nuclear detonation. Right. Nuclear fallout, raining ashes, catastrophic environmental devastation. It all looks like a nightmare. And they believe that Hardhome was the Trinity test of Song of Ice and Fire. Right. This time, the responsible party would have

been death the destroyer of worlds and the relevant timeline is 800 years ago the faceless men come forth incite a slave rebellion on a fleet of valyrian ships the ships flee the wrath of the dragon lords and found the free city of bravos 700 years ago bravos reveals itself to the world the faceless men work for hire outside of bravos giving the gift becoming infamous and collecting their first century of quote-unquote payments 600 years ago hardhome destroyed 400 years ago the doom of valeria as in hardhome but an actual continent they believe that given sufficient stimulation an egg a dragon egg can actually be detonated instead of hatched releasing a

concentrated firepower in one catastrophic blast on par with a nuclear bomb that was interesting don't know if i believe it but i was like oh that's really crazy thought so the too long don't read is that hard home was a weapons test a red flag right a false flag if you will the faceless men's dry run for the doom both events are described with the same post-nuclear verbiage bright as the sun raining ash devastated wastelands haunted accursed demons ghouls monsters and the story of hardhome and the fall of valeria are very prominent in aria's storyline and in the house of black and white i think there's a lot into that theory that it could be linked um and there's a lot with melisandre that's theorized about.

I read a theory a while back that she could have been a slave from Hardhome that was sold by the Freehold to Asshai. It doesn't 100% work out time-wise. I do think it's likelier that she was probably closer to the Doom of Valyria, maybe sold to the Temple in Old Valyria. But right before the Doom, lots to consider. Don't know. Need the next book please but i do think the faceless man proto detonation theory is just interesting because we talked a little bit about bravos recently in our house valerian episode for five dollar or not

patrons but the faceless men are that kind of petty that they would wait 200 years in between a big event to do something opportunistic and catastrophic and they're basically like the deep state in planetos i feel like they have like power over everything aria's plot absolutely revolves around them and their secrets not to mention the citadel and pate and the alchemist and i just am curious how george george will reveal this we'll find out eventually but they're very prominent, right? Braavos is this gorgeous slavery-free place with the arts, a prominent means of living and busking and oysters and shit. The Faceless Men date even before that.

To me, it's very likely they birthed Braavos. As they say in the World of Ice and Fire, no discussion of Braavos should be complete without a mention of the Faceless Men. fire no discussion of bravos should be complete without a mention of the faceless men if there's one place anonymous rich assassin elites can create for themselves it would be this passion paradise where people are free to enrich themselves and everything in bravos uh trade it's a fantasy city we even kind of feel that when westeros sees that aren't aria visit in her plot in the wind of winter's mercy if you guys have read that you might know so i don't know it's food for thought it could be something like that it could be completely not but it is interesting that it has very doom-like qualities about it yeah there's a lot of theories tying the

two together and of course some of it stemmed from like was hardhome just like a volcanic eruption right um there's so much in this john chapter that's talking about it though that it feels like there must be more to it i'm there's a part of me that's like kind of boring and is like but what if it was the simplest answer that they were just taken and sold to slavery especially with all the imagery of smoking ruins we know that the valyrians weren't above doing that they did that to to old gists, right? And salted their fields, I think, also in the Punic Wars.

Not just decimating it all with fire. what just took them and what's left to be slaves. And Hardhome was on the brink of civilization running, you know? Yeah. It's probably not that. There's probably something magical to it because it is a song of ice and fire but i'm just like i don't know it's not i definitely think there's

nuclear imagery going on here yeah george likes to kick things up to love it as he says so i don't know it'll be interesting to see how it plays out because as we said in the Forgotten Characters episode, there's not all this attention being given to Mother Mole for no reason. I don't think that she's necessarily important, but whatever's going on in Hardhome is significant and not in the way that it was

in the award-winning hit HBO TV show, Game of Thrones. Something else that I think is interesting, John says that Hardhome, as we've hammered home just now, is not the nicest place, but that Mother Mole preached that the free folk could find

there, they could find freedom where damnation had once been. I'm just saying that George is very into this interplay of opposites. It's why it's called A Song of Ice and Fire, everyone. Because if ice can burn Song of Ice and Fire, everyone. Because if ice can burn, then love and hate can mate, right? This is the thing he's super into.

The whole, like, life and death, finding the dire wolves, like, in the dead dire wolf, or life paying for death in general. But maybe there's a shade of optimism, too. I kind of like the idea, though, of reconciliation, that freedom could exist somewhere that damnation once existed i think that's the whole thing too right like suffering to get that freedom for your people yeah it doesn't even need to be like that there is suffering but just like that there can be at the end of a tunnel yeah yeah and i know a lot of other people have made the argument amongst their friends that george is romantic not a nihilist so i could agree with that well sept and selador is like wow that lady's a heretic only the seven can give salvation they're doomed and bow and

marsh is like the wall's been saved by this woman I'm so grateful we have no food to feed these people you know the typical like when Jesus is at your door response what do you do you know like hungry and bleeding and you know cracked feet and walking for miles Jesus is at your door what would you

do Christian would you feed this brown man no that's kind of what bowen marsh is doing absolutely not get jesus off my door john's annoyed this is not the point he's like there's no shelter from cold at hard home according to cotter pike the thousands of people men children women they're all gonna die yeah and john's like giving the speech and all bow and marsh has to reply with his thousands of enemies thousands of wildlings and that's italicized which i think is supposed to make you see that there's a lot of hate between it and honestly john's all just annoyed like he's

furious in this moment and like that it says um anger rose inside him but when he spoke his voice was quiet and cold you're seeing you're seeing that ned stark you're seeing that lord snow come out and i don't blame him all right i think that it's this response from marsh and this like a mentality of his that like keeps me from ever really warming up to him or his point of view like i don't think that like i think that it's right that john was kind of going against some of the tenants of the night's watch like i don't think that like i think that it's right that john was kind of going against some of the tenants of the night's watch like i get it and i think that's that's true but i just like i just still can't see eye to eye like with bone marsh at all i just can't fathom how you can like think of thousands of people in that way and just think of them as only thousands of enemies

as John says in this interiority, men, women, and children and for you to just be like, yeah, good riddance I'm glad they fucking died. Thousands of them, I just can't and as we were saying at the beginning of this episode things like this happen all the time around the world

people thinking that way and I don't know, this part right here time around the world. People thinking that way. I don't know. This part right here, this is the subtext, again, becoming just the entire... It's the text now. It's the entire rest of what this exchange between Jon and Selador, Yarrick, and Marsh has been about the whole time. And Jon's just calling it out now. That reliance on prejudice to dehumanize

everyone who isn't them cutting off their own nose to spite their face because he's like they're not okay first of all they're fucking people and second of all they're all gonna come for us if we don't do anything because the others killing people to use as pawns it's the same

thing as what Selador Yarwick and Marsh are arguing for here what they've been doing in a metaphorical sense they're stripping people of their humanity to be underneath them in this power system and i think that's a huge part of what a song of ice and fire has been about that conversation of who has power who doesn't who gets to be considered human and who isn't considered human and't, who gets to be considered human, and who isn't considered human, and how this shouldn't be a conversation at

all. And I'm just going to throw out this book recommendation out there. If that's something that really interests you in a book series, go read The Broken Earth Trilogy by N.K. Jemisin. It's a masterpiece. Each one of the three won consecutively

the Hugo Award for Best Noisin. It's a masterpiece. Each one of the three won consecutively the Hugo Award for Best Novel three years in a row, and each one absolutely fucking deserves it. But coming back to this and the beginning of the chapter, Val was talking about, right, this half-blind horse. She's like, no, it's fine

because I know where to go. I can see. And it's better, right, than these three who do have eyes and they refuse to see because john calls him out at the end when he says his language comes back to the beginning of this chapter with the blind horse and says are you so blind or is it that you do not wish to see what do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead again george is really ending these john chapters like just mic drop and it sucks having to now talk about the very end of this chapter because i feel

like you just mic dropped that really well in speaking about power structure and who gets power and doesn't that's entirely what this is about uh these men these giant man babies are like upset because they think other people are going to take power and that it's going to take from their allotment of power right and it won't it's literally going to save their fucking lives as it's said in the rest of this chapter yeah absolutely and it's like if the others don't reach these guys first the people of the watch will these guys are the watch that are so soulless and i mean you look at yarwick and you look at uh selador and you look at bowen marsh and each of them has flaws that are so painted

across them not just in this conversation but i mean even before i mean septon selador is a drunk right bowen marsh is intolerant uh the george has painted their issues very well. And here they are before us preaching that they're perfect. And it's just very, uh, the end of the chapter. Are you so blind? Or is it that you do not wish to see what do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead above the door?

The Raven muttered. Let me tell you what will happen. The dead will rise again, in the hundreds and the thousands. They'll rise as whites with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they'll come for us. He pushed himself to his feet, the fingers of his sword hand opening and closing. You have my leave to go.

Septon Selador rose, grey-faced and closing. You have my leave to go. Septon Selador rose, gray-faced and sweating. Othell Yarwick stiffly, Bowen Marsh tight-lipped and pale. Thank you for your time, Lord Snow. They left without another word.

They lost, but John loses the war. Yup. B war. Yup. Bummer. Yeah. It's too bad he dies at the end of this book. I feel like it's so pointless analyzing John's chapters. He's never going to come back, right?

Never. That'd be so silly. George isn't cheesy like that. Damn, you can tell they lost because Bowen Marsh isn't even angry at this point right because his face isn't red i don't know if i would say that his face that gives that away i don't know if he would even say he's lost i think this is more like he knows what he has to do we already know joffrey got ideas from people talking around him that's true saying i mean john's john's been feeding them the ideas

to assassinate him throughout all of their exchanges i'm gonna be real like since every chapter kill me kill me from the good place that's straight up john yeah he's like oh remember those guys who meet against jared mormont would be a shame if something like that happened to me he's been doing it this entire book. It's kind of the calm before the storm, right? This is what this is. Next chapter's nuts. We've got what, Alice Karstark shows up, doesn't she?

Midway through, something like that. We got Val, we got Tormund, we've got a full cast next chapter, and it is going to very much take up at least the hour, hour and a half two hour slot. I am excited about it though. I'm very excited for that next

week for John 9. Yes. Oh man, it'll be nice to see Torben again. Har! Bring some levity. We need a little bit of happiness before John dies. Yeah, and I like Alice Karstark, you know, she's a wild card

wild card thrown into the mix yeah well guys thank you so much for joining us this week if you guys have not already please be sure to check out our monthly patreon episode for five dollar and up patrons we released it last month for november it is about house valerian we had a blast i loved the episode i re-listened to it and I had a blast yeah I think as I was editing it I was like I think this is one of our funniest episodes yet and it's actually I think good

yeah I feel like we actually got some good info in there too not just jokes we got the jokes and we got the seahorses you know what I mean we do so hold your seahorses. You know what I mean? We do. So, everyone, hold your seahorses. You guys can check out our Patreon at patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon. And, of course, if you would like to keep up with our other episodes,

we are continuing to do our Osagravice Fire read-through with John, as well as breaking down the episodes of His Dark Materials before starting back up with the books with the Subtle Knife in 2020. You can keep up with us on Twitter at Girls Gone Canon, or maybe you too have an email just like Pat. You can shoot it to us at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com.

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I have been one of your hosts, Chloe. And I have been another one of your hosts, Eliana. We'll talk to you guys next week. Goodbye.