Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 79 - ADWD Jon XIII ft.TheLadyShelly

Episode Date: January 24, 2020

We're killing Jon Snow!   Shelly's Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheLadyShelly    Intro by Anton Langhage   ---   Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, Episode 79, John, Chapter 13 of A Dance with Dragons. I am one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me from the internet as LizaNarbor on Twitter, Tumblr, and LizaNarborGold.com. And I am another one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit. Maybe you know me though as Arithmetric on Twitter. But also Maybe you don't know her at all. You also might not know me at all. But you probably do know. Does anyone really know me? Except for, I don't know,

Chloe and this other, our very special guest Shelly. Hello, hello. You guys might know Shelly from her Hot Thrones takes on the internet on twitter at the lady shelly you may know her as the lady shelly pretty much on twitter or as the world's biggest pats fan yes that's me you're like i identify as that one yes i do i do uh god shelly i i was even going to introduce you as the page of many faces

A very popular Facebook meme blog that died Wow It did, it did I think life killed it I think we're all adults and it's hard to run a meme page as an adult Yes, yes, it definitely is They were the knights of spring, of summer We had some amazing memes though

One day we'll resurrect them If the page of many faces, right, is inside by the god of many faces, which is death, and life killed it, there's something there. There's something there. I think you figured out something there. That's Endgame, actually. Wow. We're in Endgame now. I think that's the first galaxy brain, and we just started.

Well, we're really excited to have you on, Shelley. We could not have anyone else on except the biggest Jon Snow fan to kill john with us i also identify as that not a killer but big fan yeah we are gonna kill john together all three of us though so well on a lighter note we have some exciting news happening this is the last john snow chapter we will have a little bit of an outro at the end where we kind of discuss uh i don't know the stakes what what happens after you kill your hero right but first the next a song of ice and fire episode we do will not be a john episode will it eliana it will not be a john episode in fact it will not be a theon episode because we already did that nor will it be a Ned episode even though

deep down inside maybe everything's a Ned episode it's going to be a Jaime Lannister episode yes my god there's a method

to our madness that is so exciting I can't wait I don't know I think it's a method to our madness. That is so exciting. I can't wait. Yes. I, uh, I don't know. I think it's a good progression, right? From Theon to John to Jamie, all these kind of young dreamers with their dashed hopes in what they became. But before then, we got to wrap up and finish killing Jon Snow.

Rip. Not ready. You know, we did get an email from one of our patrons, Weed Detective WolfmanZag, who asked, would you guys consider doing episodes on epilogue or prologue or otherwise limited

POVs as palette cleansers between major POVs? Just curious. Love, Weed Detective. Interesting question. You know what? I gonna we're just gonna keep going and you're gonna find out yeah we have thought about what we're going to do for the epilogues and prologues already so don't worry we have thought about all of this in length in all due time my children it will all be revealed all of it we got a tweet from tfcnu yes who has a number at the end of the actual twitter handle

tfcnu2 in reference to last episode in which chloe and i venture into the world of larger families how do they work shelly's here to explain all of this to us which is good yeah but so shelly in last episode uh we talked about there is someone of the free folk who is technically i can't even explain it so there i will i will explain so so last episode there were these two harls who are related to one another and they have both had children with the same woman and Tormund Giantsbane is insistent

that they are cousins and we realize no they're brothers and TFCNU makes the great point that it's por que no los dos yes children born to the same mother are half-brothers, but if their

fathers are cousins, they are also cousins. They are both, which is inspired. Mind-blowing. You know what this reminds me of? You know the little taco commercial where they're fighting over the hard shell and the soft shell, and the little girl goes, why not both?

That's it. it's both and then they put her on their shoulders yes and they're super excited and she saves the day because you know thank you tfc and you too for explaining this to us because i just i'm still baffled and i'm baffled by this commercial and i'm baffled by the these children and these half cousin brother children and i guess when i think about it the starks baffle me too so i'm just going to be baffled and instead of talking about my bafflement we are going to jump into our lightning round shelly you know the rules of the lightning round we talk about the chapter it's kind of fast we go we go go go and we get to john and then we talk about Jon. Are you ready? Are you ready?

Let's do it. This is the moment everyone dreams of, right? I don't know. I dream of it all the time. I'm like, what the fuck am I going to write in this lightning round? The Discarded Knight. As the tension rises in Meereen without Daenerys ruling, Barristan counsels the Dornish to leave while they can.

The Spurn Suitor, the Dornishman, throw in with the Tattered Prince, promising him pentos when the Queen returns. The Griffon reborn. Landing in Cape Wrath, the Griffon retakes his ancestral family home, lamenting on his silver prince and mistakes past. He plans King Aegon's conquest in both land and marriage. The Sacrifice The Kraken's daughter is guarded by Alysanne Mormont, hostage in Stannis' camp. The night is alight by Stannis,

but she meets a familiar face at the end. You have to know your name. So, Chloe wrote two versions of this, and I'm going to read the version that she crossed out. I think that's a wise choice the people need this this version but and then we have on the other side of the grayjoy spectrum brilliant science analyst very very highly regarded genius victorian Greyjoy, goes on a research journey which involves the important research instrument,

his dick. I mean, you're right, I'm not wrong. If people want to know the other version, I will read this aloud. Guys, I'm telling you right now, this is the better version. So you're not missing anything. Okay, so let's keep it going with the ugly little girl.

Arya has somehow, seriously, how, passed her test and is given her first target in the shipyard. Cersei too. Haunted by guilt and ghosts, Cersei's penance is displayed across her naked body as she walks from the Sept of Baelor to the Red Keep. Tyrion 12. Tyrion strikes an agreement to join the Second Sons, but all of his party doesn't seem like they'll make it. Tyrion knows that he must turn the tides once more, for the Second Sons are on the losing

side. The Kingbreaker. Barristan learns who is and isn't Daenerys' friend in Meereen. Or so he thinks. This could be every Barristan chapter, actually. Just saying. The Dragontamer. A frog learns that he's not actually the hero of the story, and he dies in the face of dragon flame. Alright, and then I just want to preface this before we get started with this chapter just

really made me Silver Linings playbook. And by Silver Linings playbook, I mean, you know, when Bradley Cooper's character reads the book, A Farewell to Arms by Ernest Hemingway, and he gets so pissed off that he throws it out the window. That was me many times during this chapter. It's an iconic chapter. From John's stupidity to crappy choices to the end of the chapter. I mean, it's just like one throw out of the window after another.

Actually, you're right. I didn't think about it. You got to go throw it, pick it back up again, throw it again. you make it all the way across the entire room maybe across the entire neighborhood based on how far you throw the book each time yeah and i mean okay the first time i wrote a song of ice and fire i didn't i didn't see a lot of it like i i read it and i didn't understand all of those like complexities right if you guys were with us for the sansa chapters you'll know i didn't understand any of the sansan

implications the first time i read these books like i'm sorry but i don't believe that it did i had a friend actually tell me like oh like sandor and sansa and how they have a relationship and i was like what are you talking about and he's like he kissed her i'm like when like that was me that was a person so i have changed obviously but like i did not see this coming i don't know how i did not reading all this now it's like when you read the red wedding right like you hear all the rain and all the like dumb death symbolism and you're like oh everything's fine we're going to a wedding it'll be great uh then they all die uh you just don't realize it and then they die and you're like oh shit it was right there man yeah it was all right there yeah rereading it you can

see john with a huge like kill me sign on his forehead he literally tells them all the time but i think yeah i think i i don't know that i was as curious i was just like okay that happened interesting and then i was like all right we're almost at the end of this book i can go actually talk about the series of the people now yeah i mean who kills their hero right like you just wouldn't have expected it right away no not at all i think george just so good job kind of trained this too and i had read granted it usually happens more towards the end of the books but i'd read enough hemingway that i was like yeah whatever someone died carry

on speaking of hemingway yeah exactly so yeah i can imagine like a younger you eliana sitting there going huh unexpected but okay moving on next next book when do i get it actually that act that is how i felt i put off finishing this book for a while i was stuck around i don't know and one third of the way through dance and i was like i'm gonna i'm gonna just space it out because i don't know what i'm gonna get the next book and eventually i'll get it oh my god yeah well i think you're better for it look at all the friends you meet along the way. But, and Shelley's one of those people, actually, so I didn't share my Shelley story, in which, as people know, I used to have a reread brunch with strangers from the internet.

And, yeah, Shelley came to one of those as she was coming through the city one time, and then we went to the zoo together. Yes, we did! we went to the zoo together yes we did we went to the zoo that's so funny that's so funny because like weird strangers on the internet but that's kind of what this community is that is i know you had a weird stranger on the internet and now you gotta you're gonna get a husband out of it i met him in real life first i met him in real life first so here we are though here we are in john 13 moments away from the big big finale fake out whatever and we're gonna cover john's ranging to hard home because unlike in the show john goes to the ranging of a hard home yes that that's true, and he dies there, and he's resurrected there, because, as you all know, many of the others who died at Hardhome were resurrected, and that's what happens in the books. So, Selyse Baratheon, nay, Florent, would rather Jon let the Free Folk at Hardhome die.

John let the free folk at Hardhome die. This is, it's honestly the funniest shit because like, like we said last episode, like she's ugly enough. You don't have to make her physically ugly because she's literally already so ugly. And he knew that this answer was coming.

He had to obviously ask her since she's the acting queen. And he tries to level with her about, you know, oh, the thousands of starving free folk and the woman and children. And she's like, yeah, that's so sad. Sucks for them And then I read it again and I have kids now. And as a mom, it just kind of hits you in a different way when you think about those things. And with everything that's going on today, people just trying to live and trying to make it to somewhere where they have an opportunity to live. And I don't want to get too political, obviously, but there are things that are going on today that are totally applicable, you know, real life to this type of situation. They're not being chased by ice zombies, but it's other

things. And so every time I read it, I get a new appreciation for john's decisions in why he did what he did and why he wanted to do it but he was just kind of dumb yeah that's a really great point they're all people yeah i mean that's like the whole entire point of the whole chapter and the whole arc right like john learns that these are just a people these are just an entire people that have been shunted away for decades and decades and centuries and centuries like we're not talking like this was a recent decision we're talking like all these people in westeros just have grown up thinking this is normal like as a kid you're like oh yeah and the savages live over that big wall in the north mommy like that's like normal yeah i mean but you see what they're taught about them through

brands chapters right and the stories that he's been told like that yeah they eat people and all these things and it's like yeah some of them not all of them they're not a homogenous entity at all and i think that's something that really comes through and is great about john's chapters as he comes to realize a lot of them in their complexity. Like, I mean, Sir Patrick probably eats people too. So, well, not anymore, but spoilers. Stannis was like two seconds away from eating people. We might see that with them. We're probably going to see it with other characters. Honestly, I'm going to throw it out there. There's like a line in here later on where they're like, yeah, the people at Hardhome are like moments away from eating their dead. And I'm just saying, that doesn't seem like the worst idea in a place where the dead are coming back, throwing it out there.

For sure. In fact, a smart decision. They don't have food right now. Like, I get that, obviously, to support people, which is what Solis is really pushing. She's like, well, we don't have rations. So it's very sad. And she just holds Shireen to her. And she's like, I hope for the rebirth into the light,

which means die. She hopes that they die. And then John notices she kisses Shireen's clean cheek and not the grayscale one. Yeah, it's an interesting note because, I mean, Solis fucking sucks, first of all, as we've been discussing. And that's actually what maybe John's later story is about, how much Solis sucks. interesting note because i mean selise fucking sucks first of all as we've been discussing and that's actually what maybe john's later story is about how much selise sucks uh but i do think

like this moment where john is saying yes and as shelly was saying about you know the people at hardhome being people and being able to relate to it on the same level as like a mother which clearly i'm not but like that's what this is coming from he starts saying to selise and explaining they're all mothers and then selise cuts him off to finish like and children yes and then she's like i don't give a fuck and and that's the thing because selise doesn't have that sort of empathy despite having her own children and i think that the reason why people don't look at her as an empathetic character that they can relate to is because she herself doesn't exhibit any towards

any of the other characters in the story she's solely focused on her own family entirely if at all or maybe not because as John points out she kisses Shireen's clean cheek and I think that's why the scene is here and maybe it would have hit a little harder had George been able to fit all the chapters that he originally intended to have in dance. But Solis is arguing that these people should die for the greater good. She's saying that them dying is the practical choice because she'd rather that they die than sacrifice more lives and food. And I think that the story essentially by having that there is then saying okay Selyse fine so what

about when it's your child when it's Shireen against the lives of thousands is it different then should she be saved and Aaron's faith is put to the test as we see in Winds soon Melisandre's will be and I think that Selyse's

will be when the Lord of Light asks for her daughter to be the one who's reborn in the light yeah that's extremely fair like you Shireen it's all different when it's your kid right it changes when it's your kid

and it turns out when you're out of King's Blood that changes things too yeah and I think that's the thing like as Shirley was saying, she can imagine how it is for other people. It's not just her kid. It's being able to put yourself in the shoes of others. Yeah.

So the chamber is also full of people. Shireen, Slyze, Patchface, Axel Florent, Malisandra, Devin Seaworth. Malisandra's two guardsmen. And of course, Slyze's huge crew. crew oh that's kind of liza erinish isn't it oh yeah absolutely she does kind of remind me a little bit of like a eliza erin-esque character in a way just from the different side of town does that make sense yeah she is kind of that uh she's got that hoity-toity attitude for someone that probably shouldn't. Yeah, that's true. Just saying.

That's true. Just saying, your shit stinks. She has Narbert, Benethen, Maligorn, Patrick, Dorden, and Bruce, all of her dudes, hanging around. And Jon has this little memory about Tormund's reaction to the Queen's guard that she takes everywhere and how big it is. Afraid of being carried off, is she? I hope you never said how big. Remember it is, Jon Snow. That frightened any woman. I always

wanted me one with a mustache. I love Tormund in this more and more every time I read it. Like, Tormund's almost like a Robb replacement with his red hair. Jon realizes he's wasting his time and he's like, alright, well, I'll let the watch tend to this. And Selyse is like,

I said let them die, yet you'll persist in this mad folly. Do not deny it. Okay, future good queen of Westeros, just putting that out there. Like, it's very obvious at this point in the story, Stannis and Selyse will not be ruling. You know, like, there's no they're not

it's not gonna happen for them they know this right has anyone told them no i don't think so i don't think you go out there and fight in in the winter if you think yeah yeah just there's no there's no inspiration for me when it comes to them i don't know john kind of gets defensive to salise he's like the wall is mine so is the decision and she's like yeah well those is mine. So is the decision. And she's like, yeah, well, those decisions will be answered to when my husband comes home to our new favorite place, the night fort. Sir Mailgorn asks who will lead the ranging, not out of glory, but for the gossip purposes. And Patchface pipes up, dancing around and singing.

We will march into the sea and out again under the waves we will ride seahorses and mermaids will blow seashells to announce our coming oh oh oh oh everyone laughs except for john who is not having a good time he plans on leading the group because he wouldn't ask his men to do something he would not do salse declares sarcastically that this is bold and that some bard will sing a song about him and they'll elect a new lord commander. Ah, the circle of life.

The next part is such a fake out to me. Like, now that I've re-read this with what we know, I'm like, oh, like if I didn't know better, I could have thought maybe Mance actually came home. Which would have made the letter so mysterious but she asks axel to bring out the wildling king and they bring garrick of house redbeard king of the wildlings out i lose my shit laughing at this now because like he's such a prick there's like all this build-up we've had of garrick being nothing but a lying prick

who tries to claim that he's super rich and super famous he's like the most famous free folk it's like i'm a wildling king and i'm like that's not that's not how that works like mance raider is a wildling king you're just an asshole in silk it's like a complete mummer's farce and in davos 2 in a dance with dragons this is basically a complete callback. Because in Davos 2, Axel says, Even dressed in silk and velvet, an ape remains an ape. A wiser prince would have known that you cannot send an ape to do a man's work. So he's straight up being an asshole to Davos.

And right now I'm like, oh, Axel is literally leading out a silk and velvet ape right now, which is Garak. I think that tying him to Axel for it is really interesting. I would not have thought of that. Axel's a fucking clown. Fucking no-tail and ass clown. Garak has been dressed in Stannis' old clothes.

Axel would have loved for that to happen for him, wouldn't he? And he's looking fresh and fiery and like a southern lord and Selyse seems to believe him about his famous birth even though Jon knows that he's actually from a second

different line of raiment redbeards Garak has given Selyse though his eldest daughter to marry Axel under relore a real wildling princess allegedly this scene is so funny to me this whole like passage is so funny because they're like so over the top about it like selise is like yes a real wildling princess like just because val wouldn't marry axel or wouldn't like succumb to like what they wanted of her she's not the real wildling princess and so we're

watching this revisionist history play out with celise in her court agreeing with this idea that garrick is a free folk king dressing him up out of nowhere in this special wardrobe in a commander's wardrobe kissed by fire with his hair all slicked back and this is simultaneously happening with agon right uh with agon the sixth right now and with mance going to winterfell in the first place it cleared the plate for them to have a political spot like that open up um and i expect garrick dies at like the first sign of others or the first sign of king's blood right like? Like, how easy is that? But it's just so easy to rewrite these histories, especially when the rest of Westeros has no clue about free folk culture and lore.

Selyse and her court are basically rewriting this whole culture and giving it a brand new narrative. And, you know, it just makes me think of that last of the giants all over again. And I don't know, the second that this guy misacts, they can serve him up to R'hllor, right? Like he has King's blood. Like he signed his own death wish. You're totally right. That's going to happen. Oh, what a dingus.

Right. But yeah, about like the looking the part. It actually kind of reminded me, going all the way back again to Ned's story of how he felt uncomfortable, right? And he had to change his clothes in order to try to fit in that court. That's all that really mattered. The stuff that you were saying about Aegon reminded me of that. But Aegon is a good counter argument to that, right? Because they dress him up all right. And people are like, yeah, I think that's a king. Definitely. they dress him up all right and people are like yeah i think that's a king definitely and i don't know i've just kind of been wondering going off of this idea of like he's not the king i mean how can everyone just not fucking realize that nobody's following garrick right like it doesn't matter what his blood is nobody respects him or follows him like it's pretty fucking obvious and i realize that the reason why this isn't like throwing up red flags for anyone is because this is exactly a mirror

to the stanis baratheon slash florenc court and like sure yes he has like the red beard blood from his from raymond redbeard's brother not even ray Raymond Redbeard himself. That kind of reminds me of all the Reach houses being like, yes, we are descended from House Gardner. And being like, yes, that makes us actually the rightful claimants to the Reach, but the Tyrells have it instead right now. And I think that's that was the whole reason, right? That was a big

reason why there's a marriage alliance between the Florence and the Baratheons in case they need to pull that rank if the Tyrells fall out of line since they were loyalists. And, like, I don't know. There's blood and law, and yeah,

Stannis should be the king because the royal bastards, the royal children are bastards, but, I mean, they dress them up in the Baratheon colors, and people seem to think that they're not bastards born of incest, but, I mean, still, no one fucking follows Stannis and Selyse. No one even really respects them until much later. I still don't respect Selyse.

And they still continue to insist that they are monarchs. They literally believe it. You were saying, has anyone told them? You don't got a chance. But Stannis is out there, at least, trying to do something. Selyse is not not she's just playing the part of what she thinks monarchy is and i think that's exactly the reason why she can't see that garrick isn't royalty and isn't the king of the free folk because like no one yeah no one's

following him but no one fucking follows her and stanis anyway so yeah no you make very valid points very valid points absolutely i didn't even think about that like any of that reading this at first probably because you know i just was too absorbed with john but you know well you know he does die at the end yeah i was i only thought about it this read through because i was like why doesn't anyone think this is weird it's like because then they'd have to admit that they're a fucking farce too i'm paying a lot more attention to the clothes in this reread even the dude's clothing you know what i mean like he's actually really putting a lot into it and um i don't know you look at people like harry the heir upcoming in the winds of winter you know with the clothing he wears to make himself look like the lord for

house erin uh and trying to play that part and trying to obviously posture himself there's a lot of that in this book and it's something we're going to talk about at the end of the episode in our mini outro where we chat about you know the end and the whole the hero dying uh you don't see garrick the king of the free folk dying if you're in the story you're just like oh and now there's a king that our king is championing but the second that garrick dies in this story it's an omen of shit to come because like you just said they're tied to this they just put him up and said we believe he's a king but turns out their regime is bullshit too the baratheons are just bargain dollar store targaryens that got

raised up from bastardry too you know know what I mean? And also, feudalism's a joke. But they're all knock-off Prada bags. I don't know. Yeah, that's true. That's what I'm trying to say. I am Fiji water. They are toilet water.

What? Nothing. Anyways. She's Fiji water. Yes, get it right eliana toilet water toilet water oh that's a it's a big jump big jumps i said what i said so the other daughters left over from uh garrick's brood will marry sir bruce and sir malicorn john gives them well wishes and then patchface sings about it uh patchface sings under the sea men marry fishes they do they do they do so you've referenced it before where is russia did a post on our a swath about the sea meaning death in patchface's songs and this one right here makes me think about cadillan stark

may toli a little bit i don't know i don't know uh the last one we kind of glossed over it because again i'm too tired to analyze overanalyze things you guys it's just too much people have done it you know uh you guys all come to this podcast for something different i hope and people have been there people have done it uh merman you know uh crabs people think it's manderleys and celtigars but we'll see we'll see what happens there i'm sure it's manderleys i mean it's an easy one come on patch face so lisa's like why not make it a quadruple wedding i decided val will marry patrick hold on i i had a thought speaking of overanalyzing things. Is this maybe going to tie into the

movie that I've never watched? Four Weddings and a Funeral? No. No? Okay. Thank you. That's all. I don't know what the movie's about. I don't know what the movie's about. I assume it's about four weddings and a funeral. It is about four weddings and a funeral. John explains

that traditionally, free folk women have to be stolen to prove the husband's valor. And Patrick is like, it's okay, I've got a huge dick, John. Settle down. Sleaze is like, I want to fix Val to be fit to be a noble lady.

And John is about to tell her maybe that's a bad idea. Because she thinks that your daughter is the walking incarnation of death. But Slyzz doesn't give a shit about anything Jon says. He's like, you can leave. And truly, Slyzz is just

an uglier Cersei. She really is. She thinks she's smart. She really is. She thinks she's smart. She really is. Melisandre interrupts his leave and she's like, where's Ghost? I always ask this too. Where's Ghost, Jon? So Jon is like, I can't let

Ghost out until Barak and his boar leave to Stonedor because Ghost will attack him and only one will survive can't chance it lady john's upset that melisandre didn't pipe up to support his raging and melisandre says that selise was right for once he can't save the free folk and more than half of the fleet is already gone she says her fires tell her that not one man will return he argues her fires have been wrong before but she argues she's the one who's been wrong not the fire the fire doesn't lie she just misinterpreted it obviously

he gives her receipts of her incorrect predictions which is what i'm gonna do when the winds of winter comes out and i search all y'all bitches tweets and it's well i'll be number one. So you'll find me number one since I'm the eternal pessimist. But John's like those boomers who anytime somebody does something cool, they search Twitter to see if you did anything problematic. He's going to find the receipts. He's going to find the proof. Yeah, absolutely. He asks where Stannis is and where Rattleshirt is and where his sister is.

And Mel's like, you'll get your answer soon, dude. And when you do, you're gonna need me. And she says, winter is almost upon us now. I am your only hope. Help me, Obi-Wan. You're my only hope. Oh my god. Does that apply here too? I think so. Yes. I don't know. Who can be R2? I've been

watching a lot of Star Wars. Sorry, guys. Who would be R2? The Raven? watching a lot of Star Wars. Sorry, guys. Who would be R2? The Raven? Yeah. Yeah, it's gotta be. Never more. I do think that, I mean, this is a big, and it's obviously very like heroes, right? Like the hero is Jon, so you're seeing a lot of this hero-y trope shit around him.

But Alice Karstark showed up and she's like, help me, Obi-Jon, like you're my only hope so same kind of thing just different i love it yeah obi-jan snobey do you like that one i do like that one i really love that obi-jan snobey um i want to say you were asking where's ghost the good thing about this chapter is we get a lot of ghost until the time that we don't and we need him but otherwise we get a lot of ghosts there was a post on our a song of ice and fire today and i do feel like i need to call it out right now um so the post was really great it was called John isn't worth it. I'm going to read it to you now. If John does become body buddies with ghost after he dies, how is he going to get out? I doubt John could just decide to go back to his body if it gets fixed, but maybe a traumatic event or the death of ghost could free John from him.

Ghost would be pulling a Hodor type move, only being there to catch John from falling into the metaphorical ice spikes of death and for John to get some mystical street cred by dying i say just make ghost king he's a good boy so what say you to that shelly what say to the prospect of ghost as king i would definitely support that i think that would be a great decision he is the goodest boy that's true and ghost 2020 and forever i honestly i'm going for a ghost and sansa ballot just because i feel like that would be a good friendship they could make friends john leaves melisandre in the yard and joins leathers who reports tori gets returned after settling torment at oakenshield. And Tormund's gonna return later that day with 80 fighting men.

He's exaggerating. Which Jon thinks is enough to get them to Hardhome, but probably not back. Then he decides how many men do we actually need to take alongside 80, and what's gonna deter us in our

return as we try to bring thousands of free folk. And also food to keep them fed. And also they're probably sick. And dying. Also like taking food to feed thousands of people. Is not easy. Like it's like carts and carts. And carts of animals.

I say let them eat the dead. I think it's a practical. In a non-Selise kind of way. I say let them eat the dead. I think it's a practical in a non-Selyse kind of way. You know, Eliana, maybe another day you can try to convince me. Maybe when we get to the snowy winds of wind sample chapters

you can convince me. Just hold that thought. Just hold the thought of eat the people. We'll come back to it. Absolutely. So John asks where Toreg is and leathers is like he's with monster and val and then john thinks you know dal is a queen why not val torment had once meant to be king beyond the wall but he was bested by mance perhaps torag the tall may end up king beyond the wall someday interesting that he's thinking that there will still be a king

beyond the wall even though right now they're thinking that there will still be a king beyond the wall, even though right now they're assimilating into the culture. Agreed. But also That's interesting. Yeah, that actually is really interesting. He's like, wait, Jon, so did you intend for them to be part of the Seven Kingdoms or not? Also, I'm just hanging out there,

what if Torg is just into Val? Like, everyone else apparently is. Why can't Torg just be into Val? Like, everyone else apparently is. Why can't Torg just be into Val? Yeah, like, everyone is. Because Jon feels a weird sense of ownership because he couldn't have her. I guess so. But.

I feel like there's some almost foreshadowing here for Jon as king in the north. And this is weird how I'm gonna associate this but Rob once being king in the north and how he was saying like Dalla was once queen why not Val he is the younger brother

I just thought that was some interesting foreshadowing and of course Val's involved so I'm like is there any sort of John and Danny foreshadowing this because Val's involved involved so I'm like is there any sort of Jon and Dany foreshadowing this because Val's involved I mean I think so I think it's projecting a little there that's a king of the north with a blonde icy queen

another thing about Jon as a king you know Toreg the Tall there was another king who had a kingsguard with the moniker ending with blank the tall. Ah, Toregg the tall, Dunk the tall.

Toregg. Thick with two C's. That's it. That's the thought. That's the thought. Anyway, as my daughter would say, interesting. Oh, that's the cutest. That's better, actually. That's a better term. Yeah, I like it.

John looks to the sky and says, they should pray it doesn't snow. He makes his way to the armory where he asks Mully and the flea, why are you outside instead of inside? It is freezing and windy. Folk the flea

says, ghost is in a bad mood or they would be inside. Ghost bit his hand earlier, and John's surprised about that. Folk says flea says Ghost is in a bad mood Or they would be inside Ghost bit his hand earlier And John's surprised about that Folk says he's never seen him in this way Wild and on edge John enters and Ghost is pacing I don't know why he's so upset

He won't sit down He bares his teeth at John when John tries to pet him He thinks it's the boar's fault And the bird seems agitated too and he's like, snow, snow, snow. Yes. It all is so obvious. Rereading it.

John, you did this to yourself. So there's an email that we got that I did not put in the emails and tweets of note earlier because I thought it fit in very well here. Comes from our good friend Jimmy, who describes themselves as long-time listener, first-time emailer. Congrats on surviving, John!

Oops, too soon. Oh, man. It is too soon. He hasn't even died yet. About the bore, your connection to Robert's death is a great insight. I hadn't thought of yet. As you alluded, the boar was an indirect reason for John being killed since Ghost was locked up because of the boar

being there and John not wanting to stir up trouble. So I thought that was like a really good point that took what we were saying last episode further and really hammers it home for this episode. Absolutely, with Ghost being locked up, that is the direct- I mean, Melisandre literally just

asked him, where's your wolf? John, IDK. Fucking idiot. John, what do you want to do for dinner? IDK. Fucking idiot. Shelly, defend him! Defend John! I can't, he's too stupid right now. He fucking dies

in this episode. He's like episode I love his stupid pretty face it's so stupid and pretty he's never had to be funny or face rejection he really hasn't had to be funny you're right oh John oh sweet sweet delicate John I guess he's funny for his friends a little at the beginning he was kind of funny

and would make stabs at Alistair Thorne and he was the troublemaker. Yeah, he lost all of his sass. Penal colony changes you, bro. Yeah. Christ, okay. So Jon asks Satin to assemble Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwick,

the said boomers, and bring a flagon of mead, six cups, one each for Jon, Bowen,en othell and of course satin mully and folk who are bound to be freezing as well reminds me of ned there ned taking care of his men john is making sure his freezing men are taking care of too not just the higher ups good for you john you're a normal person everyone gets drunk he begins to look at maps of hardhome and notes the land and difficulties they would face on the way rolling hills salt marshes and of course storms the snow there is likely deeper than at castle black as well the fastest way is going through east watch to get

to hardhome and leathers has told him some of the giants there will definitely help their case but the way from castle black is very treacherous and you have to go through the haunted forest the spooky haunted forest yes marsh and yarwick enter in low spirits yarwick is annoyed about the storm and says he needs more builders to work in it john offers free folk but yarwick is a fucking racist asshole sorry that was just an opinion but it's true he who has personally worked with every free folk in the land for hours by now says more trouble than they're worth that lot sloppy careless lazy some good woodworkers here and there i'll not deny it but hardly a mason amongst them and nary a smith strong backs might, but they won't do as they are told.

And us with all these ruins to turn back into forts can't be done. My Lord, I tell you true. It can't be done. He's an ass. Okay. Is that can't or won't like that straight up was, is that can't or is it won't?

I mean, I think it's a, it's a can't for him and a won't. I don't know. I think he's, I think he's just an idiot. Yeah. I think he's a, it's a can't for him and a won't. I don't know. I think he's, I think he's just an idiot. Yeah. I think he's an asshole. Yeah.

He's an asshole. John pretty much knows what these guys are going to say before they say it. And he says it will be done or they'll just live in ruins. Yeah. I mean, that's true. He's like, they're, they have incentive to do it. But what this reminds me of John, like thinking that he knows what they're going to say already is a sort of perversion of Ned teaching his children. If you're going to roll, you got to know your men. And John does.

But I guess he also doesn't in a way because he dies at the end. But whatever. But also maybe he kind of does because he knows that they want to kill him and that's why he's been telling them for the past five chapters then just kill me and put a new lord commander so i'm like sadistically excited to get to that part because like the second they slip out of the shield hall dude it's like over it's like uh john lets his glory envelop him you know and he like just doesn't even he's like i don't care i don't care and it's like oh john this is like the one thing you should care about dude yeah the one time the one you

don't need to be a little whiny brat like the little girl in rush hour being like do it do it push the goddamn button and i'm chris tucker being like whoa too much too much john chill out well and i think that's a big decision of why going forward like what will change john right because he's gonna see so many people die when he does come back and as he becomes a king in his own right even if it's just for a bit of time like he's gonna see people die because of him because of his command uh More people. He's going to lose people. And like, that changes you, man. You don't want that. You don't want to have to say yes or no of who lives or dies.

And I'm excited to see how that changes. But even here, John has suffered a little bit of loss. And he can already tell that Yarwick and Marsh are bullshit. Like in everything they do. He thinks of some of the fucking ridiculous things that they have said so far about the Free Folk. Like he put Sorin's shield breaker on Stonedor and

they complained, it's too isolated. We won't know what trouble he's up to. Who gives a shit? He gives Queensgate to mourn a white mask, the chick with the weirwood mask, and he gives Oakenshield to Tormund and Marsh is like, now we have foes on both sides.

And of course, Athal Yarwick is like, if we let Borak move to Stonedore, he's gonna make a pig army, because of all the wild boars in the woods. I honestly don't know why anyone thinks this is bad, like a pig army sounds like the raddest fucking thing ever.

Like war pigs. I love it. It's so great. I'm in. I'm in. John asks for opinions on garrisoning, Warfrost Hill, then, and Rhyme Gate, and offers names of more free folk,

and Marsh says, No, they're all fit for deuces, not castles, and Jarmik agrees. Racist. It's so meta commentary because it's literally like I hear people, I would never stoop to work at McDonald's or to

work at a field getting lettuce but I sure will complain about who made my sandwich or picked that lettuce and how much money they make kind of shit. None of you people would garrison these castles. is just like the red hen fable my favorite fable right the red hen like none of you came to help me make the bread none of you were there like what now you want the glory of it these guys would not garrison these castles they wouldn't even go there and maybe john should have just sent them away but at the same time like he can't even trust these guys

at all he could trust the free folk more than he could trust his own men and that's saying something absolutely um the boomers agree that selise is right john should let the free folk die and he offers john once more offers them a chance to give their incorrect opinions about who he should send to hardhome giants spearwives to ease the women with mother mole bowen marsh rubs his bridge of skull scar and says i really don't give a shit john and then follows up with actually send them all then we don't have to feed them if they die and your work is even less helpful and he says to send torments and he can

just save everybody with his big dick i mean your rick's god for torrent yark's got torments number they're not gonna lie torment would say that um i what i don't get is like if they actually did want that to happen of yes send all of the free folk, and then they will die, then they should have just supported Jon in that moment, and not said anything. They would have been like, yeah! Right? Like, if they had been cunning and supportive for two seconds, they would have gotten exactly

what they wanted right then. Yeah. But they don't care. Like, it's not about that. Yeah, they just want to moan. Bitch and moan, but it could have worked out in the way that they wanted i'm just saying it could have but that's not what it's about to them to them it's like fuck anyone that tries to change this we've already suffered through this so yeah why let other people change it so no one else has to true they should suffer the same as we have true true fucking boomers

john's like well thanks for all your great help guys and they all leave they walk through the armory and ghost sniffs after them his tail up bristling john this was a clue look at your dog he knows like i'm so sick of John right now. I wish he would just pay attention to Ghost. If you would just pay attention to Ghost, you would have fucking known. It sucks because if Ghost hadn't snarled at John earlier, like, totally fucking up, like, John's ghost

senses and radar, like, he would have known. You know? His ghost senses that are tingling. But it's all haywire. Not very tingly my brothers the night's watch needed leaders with the wisdom of maester amen the learning of samuel tarly the courage of corinne halfhand the stubborn strength of the old bear the compassion of donald noy what it had instead was them the snow was falling heavily outside. The crowd goes wild.

Woo! It's like in miniature, I remember what Ned, I don't know, a bunch of people were lamenting. They felt that the Kingsguard used to be full of honorable people. Debatable, but Yeah.

And now it was staffed by people that they- Traitors traders people that ned didn't quite trust or respect yeah so it's kind of like he bites his thumb at them john follows them out into the yard and yarwick comments that the wind is coming from the south burying the ice cells he asks how many men they have left and marsh is like four living two dead yes the dead dudes are still out there have not risen yet and he announces they need to dig the cells out of the snow marsh is like give me 10 stewards and 10 spades and john's like use one one two but then they keep digging and john's like oh this is falling too fast it'll be buried by morning so he decides to

have the prisoners moved before they get smothered by snow folk the flea is like what if we left cregan karstark though and john's like yes i wish we could do that but we cannot cregan has been throwing his poop frozen poop at anyone that comes to feed him howling through all hours of the night and john's like we can just put him into the underseller of the commander's tower and they drag him kicking and biting out cregan carstark throwing his poop is the one heroic thing he's ever done um part of me kind of wonders is john moving cregan carstark not just because like it's humane and to keep him alive, but also if he's in a warmer cell, will his poop be less frozen and therefore harder for

him to throw? I am asking the important questions in this fandom. Thank you, Luminary, Eliana. I don't know, but I'm guessing so. I'm hoping it's... I'm hoping that's what it is I am

what a shitty situation nothing to poo poo at Marsh asks what do we do then with your corpses and John's like oh just leave them. Ironically, later on, Marsh is probably like, what do we do with his corpse?

I wonder if Jon is just like, leave him. Oh, wait, he's dead. Torment arrives. The snow shoveling has been completed. 50 men come with torment. So overstated, as Eliana has mentioned icicles are in his beard he calls for ale and he's like

I want something hot to drink and he starts ripping on Garret King's blood to Jon immediately because Torment probably had a couple on the way over is what I'm trying to tell you and Jon's like he looks kind of regal all dolled up and Torment's like he has a little red cock to go with his red hair

is what he has I love Tormund Tormund giants babe yes Tormund has a laugh about Dirk's daughters marrying the queensman too and then the bird copies him squawking girls

girls girls which torment has a laugh about as well saying that john should just give him the bloody bird since he gave him a son and john says you know you just eat the bird so no and the bird's just like eat corn corn corn the phrasing here is great because it's like, it says eat darkly. And I'm like, Oh, cannibalism, cannibalism by brand confirmed brands.

Is that what that means? We're on the same level. You know, John returns the conversation to the ranging, but Molly pokes his head out of the door to tell John that Clydus has brought a letter for him. John tries to shut it off until after his four o'clock meeting. But Molly says Clydus isn't looking so hot and he's shaking. And then instead of worrying about how urgent the letter is,

they'll launch into a discussion of Westerosi colloquialisms is. That's a really good show. It is a hard word. Colloquialisms. It's such a hard word to say sorry that i did this to you no it's okay the dark wings dark words muttered torment isn't that what you kneeler say we say bleed a cold but feast a fever too john told him we say never drink with Dornishmen when the moon is full. We say a lot of things. Molly added his two groats. My old grandmother always used to say, summer friends will melt away like summer snows, but winter friends are friends forever. I think that's sufficient wisdom for the moment, said John Snow. Okay, that's really a line in

this book, you you guys the summer friends will melt away like summer snows but winter friends are friends forever a it's like such a ridiculous exchange this whole exchange is just fucking ridiculous they're just going back and forth like my grandmother used to say this even though they literally were just told that clitus is like outside trembling and pale with a letter like a very suspicious letter and they're just like well let's just trade some idioms for a while absolutely and I also think that this is George's take on and like a more universal take as opposed to very specific to the American Revolutionary War there's there's that line from Thomas Paine when he's talking about who supports

the Revolutionary War and who doesn't and he's talking about who supports the revolutionary war and who doesn't and he says the summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will in this crisis shrink from the service of their country so that's kind of his take on the idea of like fair weather friends or maybe he's just talking about fair weather friends fuck it i'm an idiot hold on but i would also venture to say winter friends are friends forever like the others. Oh. Wow. So should we all become zombies

and be friends forever? I think that's what he's trying to say that in the end A Song of Ice and Fire is really just the others that we made along the way. Oh my god. Together. I don't even know what to say right now i just you're welcome um okay i'll say that fair weather for us oh wait no i'll say thank

you oh man you guys we're about to get the letter clitus, trembling and pale, and he brings the letter that frightens him so. The scroll is addressed to Bastard, and it's signed with a hard pink wax smear. Who's gonna be Ramsay? I don't think I can be Ramsay. You're my nemesis if you're Ramsay. Okay, I shall be Ramsay then.

You're my nemesis. I forgot, I had a Ramsay voice back then, but who knows what it was anymore. What's continuity? Game of Thrones didn't have continuity, why should we- It might not even be Ramsay, should I read this in like a Microsoft Sam voice, you know? Like, your false king is dead, bastard.

He and all his hosts were smashed in seven days of battle. Nope, you should just try a Ramsay voice. That was really good, I like that. I should leave that in. I should leave all that in. Your false king is dead, bastard. He and all his hosts were smashed in seven days of battle.

I have his magic sword. Tell his red whore. Your false king's friends are dead. Their heads upon the walls of Winterfell. Come see them, bastard. Your false king lied, and so did you. You told the world you burned the king beyond the wall. Instead you sent him to Winterfell to steal my bride from me.

I will have my bride back. If you want Mamsa Reader back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I've made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell. I want my bride

back. I want the false king's queen. I want his daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my daughter and his red witch. I want his wildling princess. I want his little prince, the wildling babe. And I want my reek. Send them to me, bastard, and I will not trouble you or your black crows. Keep them from me and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it.

It was signed, Ramsey Bolton, trueborn lord of Winterfell. XOXO. Ramsey Bolton, true-born lord of Winterfell. XOXO. Ramsey. Oh my god. John commands Mully and Satin to help Clytus back to his chambers. Wow, now he's being gracious towards Clytus.

Torben wants to know what's in the letter, and he stares at it, and he's like, John, I can't fucking read this, and he just gives it G. Torbjorn wants to know what's in the letter and he stares at it and he's like, John, I can't fucking read this. And he just gives it back and then John reads it to him. I just realized Torbjorn in that moment, that's like Toph. Remember every time

they had Toph something in Avatar The Last Airbender? It's actually my favorite part. John, you silly rich boy. Still haven't gotten around to understanding that like a good portion of existing people

in this world are illiterate. I'm also going to just say like we're not gonna do a discussion here on who wrote the pink letter um nope that's a whole discussion in and of itself and if you would like to listen to a discussion on that may I point you to Maester Monthly

another podcast in which there was an in-depth discussion on who wrote the pink letter, bringing in perspectives from all over the internet and also Bookshelfstud who joined us for a Theon chapter back then did a dramatic rendition and reading

that is way better than mine of the pink letter in a Smeagol voice. So if that doesn't tempt you to listen to it. It's pretty brilliant. That's. That sounds incredible.

It was really good. I'm really glad about that though. Because when I was reading the chapter again. And I was like. Oh man. I just don't want to get into that. And I hope that they don't want to get into that. Because people are so passionate about who wrote it.

And was it really Ramsey? And who wrote it? And was it Manson or Barbara Dustin or whatever it may be? And people are so passionate about it. And I'm like, yeah, this isn't the time. Like, it's time to talk about John and Rip. Yeah, especially because the events, like, such an like a secession right like boom boom boom like everything moves so fast really soon and we we've kind of mentioned it already throughout

john's arc we've kind of mentioned the pink letter briefly the only interesting theory is barbara dustin anyways but it's played out like there's just so much more in john's plot in this chapter that we're about to move into actually in just a hot second but first torment and john are still talking torment asks how how would this guy have mance because you know torment saw mance burn alive everyone and john is like glossing over that and he thinks about melisandre's sorcery and her warning. She saw this raven coming. John debates the validity of these claims and then decides there's truth in these words

and Tormund asks what he'll do. John flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Rob with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey,

of Rickon's breathless laughter, of Sansa brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair is tangled as a bird's nest i made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to winterfell i want my bride back i want my bride back i want my bride back i think we had best changed the plan john snow said what a collection of words man what a moment because that's like the moment the moment john sees those three girls that garrick is just easily trading right his family

he's just selling off when alice shows up at the wall begging for his help against her uncle uh he sees his sisters wait he looks at Satin and sees his brothers and some of these other young boys at the wall. He sees Rob and some of these leaders that he meets. He sees Ned. Everything in this moment is threatened. He's been fighting so hard against the others because they've been threatening the home that he made.

But in this moment with Ramsey, everything that John knows, the only family he's ever known, the only family he's ever known, the only place he's ever known besides the wall has been threatened. This is very emotional. This chapter, this passage right here is why I love this series so much. I mean, it's just so much. I mean, it's just incredible, like how many relationships, these things, you can just relate them to your own life and stuff. I mean, I get chills every time I read that there are certain things that I read that I'm just like,

George, you just did it again, man. And, and that's definitely one of them. I just, I love it so much. I just,

I'm having, I'm having a hard time right now. Yeah. I promised I wasn't going to cry this entire episode, but it's just like,'s his family man and his home his family i think what's so great about it like this is the aria's needle was john snow's smile right this is an this is the corollary to that and i love that george doesn't tell us why john he doesn't say explicitly why john changes the plan right it just shows john thinking about his family and then john goes

i think we had best change the plan it's just so well done and written and like everything that's at stake just comes through without him having to say it directly. I don't think he's ever been so sure of something. In that moment, he was so sure. He just knew. And he thinks about it. He's like, what you propose is nothing less than treason. He knows that this is bad. Well, back on the range, and by the range, I mean at the Night's Watch,

at Castle Black. They talk for two hours, planning this out. Fulk and Mully's shift ends and Horse and Rory replace Fulk and Mully as guards. Jon and Tormund finally come to an agreement about the plans and it's time to take action. He tells Ghost to stay inside the armory and they leave toward the shield hall. He thinks he doesn't need ghosts savaging Borax Bor. Stupid.

Dummy. Big dumb. When the Night's Watch had been larger, the shield hall actually had been decorated with wooden shields by the hundreds. Hawks and eagles, dragons and griffins, sons and stags, wolves and wyverns, manticores, bulls, trees and flowers,

harps, spears, what is this fucking lucky charm? Crabs and krakens, red lions and golden lions, and chicky lions, owls, lambs, maids and mermen, stallions, stars, buckets and buckles, flayed men and hanged men and burning men, axes, long swords, turtles, unicorns, bears, quails, spiders and snakes and scorpions and a hundred other heraldic charges that adorn the shield hall walls, blazoned in more colors than any rainbow ever dreamed of. Ah, once a beautiful,

beautiful hall. I love that you obviously know who some of these houses are right yes i think the one that stands out to me is the one from the sworn sword that you get a little bit of that um osgrave with the checky lion yeah and of course we get maids and mermen again so you know there's some manderly obviously the one that i thought was interesting was of course the sons you get that for martel i thought it was interesting that dragons and griffins were put together i thought so too especially with the griffin reborn being a chapter we just read a couple chapters ago uh it's like a little winky face right and hanged men who's the hanged man house trant of gallows gray oh marin interesting okay it is i didn't really realize it and oh and that's why marin trant gave himself

his own things he was self-made and wasn't he like a lower branch i don't know maybe i'm making shit up i digress either way we can accept the trance here in this hall, in this shield hall, because in this description, which a shield hall is not this anymore, right? It is unfortunately not as beautiful now. There are very few of these shields. It's almost like this decrepit, long past Tower of Babel kind of idea from Genesis 11. If you're not familiar with the tower of babel uh that's basically lost a lot of translation over time but all these people come together to fight the gods who are casting them apart and judging them so the others in this scenario kind of works danis works as well they come together to build a tower to the gods to wage war against the gods and for those of you

listening right now, I will be talking about this in the Subtle Knife when we resume that for His Dark Materials. So get over it. You're going to have to hear it twice. Sorry, but I really love the Tower of Babel. So the tower is called Babel because the unified language of these peoples

that came together to become one people to go against God, it sounded like a babel. It sounded like a babble. It sounded like babbling. All these people learn to coexist to defeat their common enemy. And at the same time, in Genesis, it also perpetuates a story that they actually were just doing their job. God put humans on the earth to steward it, much like the free folks stewarding these empty garrisons.

And the problem here is that Jon is acting as God, and that's why the people want to rise up to kill him, because the common frenemy that Bowen Marsh and all them made was not the Free Folk like Jon really wanted, but instead, they kind of took more to Stannis' crew. I mean, I wouldn't say took more, but they leaned that way, saying, yeah, they're right. Jon, shut up. I like that you called Stannis the common

frenemy. He is the common frenemy, man. They don't really like him, but they also really don't like the free folks, so what are they gonna do? Be the worst. The worst! I understand that reference now.

A little John Ralphio for you. Ralphio? John Ralphphie snow oh my god when a knight died his shield would be taken down to go with him in his pyre or tomb but fewer and fewer knights took the black as history progressed and there was no need for the knights of castle black to dine apart from the rest of the brothers. Abandoned, the shield hall wasn't the best dining hall, infested with cobwebs, the rafters eaten by worms, drafty, a few faded shields left. John had ordered benches and torches and tables to be brought in to lighten the place and give

comfort to the men. Eamon once advised him that men with comfortable seats were more apt to listen. John and Tormund stand at the head of the room, Tormund blowing his war horn for quiet. John tells them that he summoned them to make plans to relieve Hardhome, and that his ships have failed, they must help, or the free folk will die. So John pays attention to his audience during this for just a hot moment uh bowen marsh and wick whittlestick are hanging out together left hand lou elf of runny mud is with them othell yarwick with his builders are nearby soren's shield breaker is there cross-armed gavin the traitor and harold the handsome are together there borak is there no boar sir narber and benethin but no other Queensmen and then of course Melisandre arrives mid John's speech

in a flurry of red John announces he had hoped to lead the ranging but he cannot now. Torment will have to lead the ranging. Borak asks if John will hang out with Ghost at Castle Black while they do the hard work but John announces no

I'm riding south. He reads Ramsay's letter and everyone starts to go wild every man began to shout at once they leapt to their feet shaking fists so much for the calming power of comfortable benches swords were brandished axes smashed against shields john snow looked to torment the giant's bane, sounded his horn once more, twice as long and twice as loud as the first time. Jon announces the Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms, and that by riding south he does not mean to oppose Ramsay, and it is not their job to avenge Stannis, his widow and his daughter, but this guy guy did threaten him and john means to make him answer for his words the night's watch will make for hard home i ride to winterfell alone unless john paused is there any man here who will come stand with me the roar was all he could have hoped for

the tumult so loud that the two old shields tumbled from the walls. So Sorin Shieldbreaker, the Wanderer, Torag, Brog, Harls, both of them, Handsome and Hunter, Blind Doss, Egon, Oldfather, the Great Walrus, all of these free folk. They're all on their feet for Jon Snow in this moment. And then he thinks this line, and it's such a victorious like too soon victory because we know what happens and he thinks i have my swords and we are coming for you bastard and just like the venom that he spits and saying bastard there i love it yeah um which is quite which is quite apt right because john's finally accepted that he's a bastard and found his new family so it's quite fitting that he's

using that as a way to throw it back to Ramsay because he knows Ramsay actually still, I mean, I assume everyone kind of knows, right, that Ramsay still gives a shit about that. Yeah. So Jon, growing, but not enough because

which we'll talk about in a second, because not everyone seems excited. Jon's not reading the entirety of the room. He kind of is, he's like, I don't give a shit, because Jon's now ranging south, and he watches Marsh and Jarmic and all their men slip out. He doesn't give a fuck, though. He's like, good, fuck them, I don't need them now, I got a new crew. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oath-breaking, the crime is mine, and mine alone. I put my heart into that for you.

You did. Thank you. That was great. Thank you. So now Tormund is the one at Jon's side, clapping his back, and tells Jon, Alright, break out the mead. Cause that's how we're gonna seal this deal and then they're like, we're gonna make a wild thing out of you again, Jon Snow

but he's distracted cause he noted that Melisandre and the Queen's Knights have left in all of this glory and thinks, ah, I should've probably gone to Selyse first, my god what would this story be if he had gone to Selyse first. My god. What would this story be if he had gone to Selyse first? Actually, that would have been smart once.

It's, like, about his fucking her fucking husband being taken. Like, he just announced it to a whole room of people that the king of Westeros, quote unquote, is dead. I would be so mad if a whole room of people found out before me that my husband had died.

Not a good move. That was actually really dumb. That was legit very dumb. Other than all the other things that I'll get to in a second. He leaves Torment to get the Free Folk drunk. He's like, maybe now I should go talk to Selyse. It's too late. It's too late.

Someone's told her. You dingus. Because Jon continues to have no PR awareness. now I should go talk to Selyse. It's too late. It's too late. Someone's told her Yadingus because Jon continues to have no PR awareness because everyone who's agreed to go south with Jon to make Ramsay pay was a wildling.

Right? First of all, everyone already thinks you have wildling sympathies, Jon. And then on top of that, there's a part in the letter where you just admitted to everyone that you were breaking the oaths of the Night's Watch already, on top of all the other things that you've done and have already stood trial for, kind of. And now you're like,

now everyone's like, oh, great! We have a letter of proof that Jon has been meddling in the affairs of the Seven Kingdoms! And then he's going to go south to take Winterfell with a band of free folk and like the optics are just so bad like beyond just the breaking of the oaths

it looks like Jon is leading a wildling invasion of Westeros of Winterfell and like I think that's how it seems to everyone on top of everything else like a lot of people have already discussed how Jon's technically breaking his oaths with all this and then to top it all off to him it's like we're going

to make a wild thing out of you yet John like baby boy what are you doing what is this yeah and it's the saddest part of all this is that like he's overcome with his glory in this moment like that's literally what

it is it's the first time he's ever like done something victoriously and planned something and it's the first time he's ever like done something victoriously and planned something and it's his first ranging that he's really planning right like he's like we're gonna go ranging and now we're on two rangings and he knows it's wrong he says as much like he thinks as much we know that he knows that this isn't the right thing like he thinks he's like this is treason this is treason but he chooses to do it he knows the cons in the words of marjorie terrell from the the game of thrones tv show that the books were based upon marjorie says cersei knows the consequences of her actions yet she is not here

why do you think that is and it's like john knows the consequences of his actions he is standing at the head of a room as free folk cheer him and roar and go yes like we're gonna do it and in one move it's so smart because he's giving them bloodlust and he's giving them action and a reason to like you know going off on a ranging and getting some glory that's a big deal for free folk they are prideful people uh and he knows they don't have that pride so that right there is an endearing move to where they'll follow him no matter what you know like they really believe in him but it was done for kind of selfish cause definitely yeah i think that's a good point it's the first time john's like everything's finally

going according to keikaku and like so i, since we are like nearing, of course, the end of John's story from what we have, yes, from what we have now, looking back on it, I think that's like, I've never thought about it in that context of before, whenever John's like going to do something that's breaking the Oath of the Night's Watch, he's super, he's super torn up about it, right? He's like, oh, I don't want to lay with Ygritte, but I really do, because I'm a teenage boy,

and things are hard. And also he loves her. But all the other times, he's really torn about it. He's torn about Corrin half-hand, of course. But this is the one time he's like, all right, I'm breaking my O's, I'm all in. And as you said, he feels good about it. Stop lying to yourself, baby boy.

I mean, that's the growth, right? He's like, I did it, I accepted it. We're breaking the O's. Anyways, it's interrupted by a loud roar, which Horse says is from Hardin's Tower, and then a scream cuts the air, but it's not a woman's scream. It's a scream of a man in pure agony. Yes.

You sound real jazzed. You sound real excited. I mean, you're real jazzed, dude. The best part is that he comes up and, like, Jon thinks it's the wights for a second, which I also would have been excited about. I'm not gonna lie to you, like, that's another alternative where I go, yes. But, like, this is

the next best alternative to that. Because it's one wag wonder one with sir patrick in his hands like a rag doll his arm is very much so apart from his body i'm just saying like i didn't write this so you can't be mad at me for it being enjoyable okay fuck that guy dude just fuck him he was a dick i'm going to let shelly take it from here because this is this is actually deep down about football. Yes, it is. And this is one of the things that I'm good at, football. So for those of you that don't know, or if you are not a fan of American football,

George R.R. Martin is a huge New York Jets and Giants fan, which I personally think is bogus because you should only have one team. Go Patriots. So one of the most famous football players in New York Giants history was Phil Simms. And his jersey number is 11-1-1-1. Get it? Because he's a punny bastard. And so Sir Patrick, his house sigil is a star, which is the logo of the Dallas Cowboys.

And the Dallas Cowboys are the most hated rival of the New York Giants. So it's kind of like the, you know, classic Red Sox Yankees or Celtics and Lakers. And yes, my comparisons are Boston sports because this is what I am. So you have George R.R. Martin's beloved Giants, Giant, just absolutely destroying and murdering his rival, Sir Patrick, which is the Dallas Cowboys. And this all was like a bet between George R. R. Martin and one of his friends. And he wrote this in there and it was really great and just a little side note that for those of you who might not know and this isn't a spoiler or anything if you haven't gotten um you know your Tyrion chapters in but there is a part where Tyrion and when they're

you know going down the river and they talk about Treyarch Belecchio and that is also a reference to patriots head coach bill belichick who george r martin hates and um much like you know our friend jeff from donna cast hates the patriots and there's a little story about how he was undefeated and just kicked so much ass until he came up on a giant and the giant killed him. And that's a little homage to the Patriots undefeated season until they lost to the Giants in the Super Bowl. So yeah, the sports, puns, analogies, homage, they're all through A Song of Ice and Fire. If you know where to look. I didn't at first, and I just thought that was really cool, especially for me being a Patriots fan, and George R.R. Martin hates my team. So, yeah.

All right, so that's enough sports. So back to you, ladies. Wait, do you hate the Giants? I never hated the Giants. I mean, the Giants hurt my heart when David Tyree had that football, that helmet catch. For those of you who watch sports, you'll know what I'm talking about if you're a big football fan.

But we're not really rivals. But, you know, the Jets are the Patriots' rival, but not the Giants'. That's why I think it's kind of trash that he has two teams. He's showing we get one. You don't get to choose one NFC team and one AFC team. It's just, no, you don't do that. Anyways, I digress. My own tangent, guys. my own tangent guys my own tangent

you should have them always and it's interesting because so uh patrick saint dennis is his friend that he made the bet with he's a genre blogger his site is pat's fantasy hot list and uh he's reviewed martin's works for a long time like not not just the Song of Ice and Fire. And they had the bet over who would win their season. And George won his first two bets. And he made Patrick St. Dennis read books that he chose. And then for the third season, he lost and agreed to put him in one of the books.

So he had to actually build this up. So Patrick of King's Mountain is Patrick St. Dennis. And his death was part of the wager. And King's Mountain refers to Dennis's home of Montreal, which old French is Royal Mountain. So that's where Sir Patrick comes from of the mountain. King's Mountain comes from Patrick St.

Dennis's Quebec background. I love it. It just blows your mind that he just wrote all this in for a bit. I just love it. Yeah. I can't believe that he did all that just to kill off Sir Patrick. Truly a legend. Truly.

Oh, yes. Absolutely. I mean, the petty is unmatched. Yeah. And this is kind of gruesome. I don't remember this being quite so gruesome as this time. Every time I read it, I learn something new. But this was way more gruesome because one one is bleeding and he's like swinging the

dead knight and just banging Patrick's head on the tower until it's a bloody pulp. Like an orange, like a melon. His cloak is all like red now instead of just blue. And there's blood and blood and bone just spurting everywhere, and everybody is coming outside. Like, this is not, like, a secluded area. Everyone is coming out to see this happening. And John is like,

I need everyone just to get back, be calm, put your steel away, and, like, one one tears off the other arm. Oh no! At least Petra can't feel it anymore is that i'm sad i wish he could fucker uh i don't know why i'm so mean to him i just really don't like him and i really don't like garrick something about garrick i know what i don't like about garrick i digress uh so john is

like leathers calm him down like use the old tongue. Everyone, get away from him. Get back. Stop scaring him. And he's like, couldn't they see the giant had been cut? John had to put an end to this or more men would die. This is where John's focus is, everyone. Just to put that out there. I know. Oh, John. Because I'm just like, no, John.

They can't. They literally can't. There's a giant tearing the body apart in front of everyone. Everyone can just see, like, oh, this guy who's technically on our side, maybe, is dying at the hands of the giant that you promised was gonna be gentle. But you know what? George lost

a bet. So too fucking bad, John, alright? They don't see that the giant was cut. They don't care who made the first wrong, unlike John right now. John's like, threaten anyone who makes the first move! I'm gonna behead you! John did that

last chapter to his own men. Right? And because Patrick's body is mutilated, and that's all anyone's- how would they see that the giant's been cut? Everyone's's just like oh my god yeah there's literally a burst of a man

on the ground and a pulpy melon head everyone's just like oh wow what John sees a glint of steel out of the corner of his eye and it's Wick Whittlestick

slashing steel at his throat John's like excuse me in front of my salad slash body he twists away from it so it really grazes him and he feels the blood then on his neck and he asks Wick

why and Wick says for the watch then John catches his wrist forces him to drop the dagger and then Wick backs away his hands up like was it me? yes it was Wick we all saw you

I seen this yeah he was like I didn't make the first move Don't behead me Actually that's what he's trying to do right now And John reaches for a long claw But his hands are stiff and he can't get the sword free And then Bolin Marsh

Stands in front of him Tears streaming down his face I'm not ready to do this I'm not gonna kill John You don't wanna kill John. I'm not gonna kill John. You don't wanna kill John? I'm not gonna kill John. You guys, we have to kill John. This is literally the end. John dies at the end.

Do you want me to kill John? You're Bow and Marsh now, Shelly. This is you. And I'm sorry to do this to you. This is really cruel. I'm a fucking pomegranate. At least you're not a melon, a smashed melon. You got that going for you.

For the watch, he punched John in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it. John fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air, the wound was smoking ghost he whispered pain washed over him stick them with the pointy end when the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades he gave a grunt and fell face first into the snow he never felt the fourth knife only the cold so

how's everyone doing it's good we're good we did it we made it through John alright we did you know what's happening at the same time as this, though? My heart is breaking? Well, that too, but

there's another smoking wound. Is there? Drogon. Drogon's blood in the cold night air the wound was smoking. Ooh. Yeah. I think it's cute that he thinks his wound is smoking john that's steam

you that's steam you idiot you gorgeous idiot john's never had to be smart precious ann someone asked i forgot who was it someone was asking i don't know if they were asking us or someone else like why does everyone describe john as beautiful? And I just want to address, it's not us. It's everyone else in the books. Like, they keep saying that about Jon. I'm like, okay. Hey, yeah, it's totally not us. We're just going off the hints that we've been given. We're off of Craster. Craster's my source. Literally, though. Not joking. literally though not joking absolutely so what do you guys think about his hand um obviously we've had such a strong bit of john with his hand like in john 2 in a dance of dragons if he let his sword hand stiffen and grow clumsy it well might be the end of him he knew i think it's interesting and we're definitely gonna dig into what it means what this whole hand stuff means especially as we talk about jamie later on god i gotta give you a hand on that one eliana

wow but yeah like i mean it's part of it's something that signals change and john of course right and comes at a pivotal time for him when he starts realizing what his place is in the real story of course jamie loses his hand at a pivotal point in his story and as he comes to realize wait who am i really yeah yeah and it's definitely very symbolic right because this is the hand he burnt while fighting the white in mormon's wing and of course despite all of his time flexing as the lord commander he is unable to use his sword when the time comes or when he needs to and i feel like there's definitely something there with like cadeline with her injured hand as well in the undead connection between them i felt there was a lot of cadatelyn in this chapter, believe it or not. Just a little hints. Little hints, like the dead fish from

Patchface's song, and the idea of the hand, the hand not moving. I mean, she's lost most mobility in that hand. Yeah, definitely. Definitely some sort of connection. And a lot of people theorize that he's going to meet her again before her end or something. I don't

think so. I don't think there's time for that. Because he's going to be dead probably for like half a book, but at least. It would be interesting. Yeah, definitely. What is it that your child says? Interesting. Interesting.

Interesting. Yes. Interesting. John's wound bleeding first and then noticing the pain. So in the next chapter, we hear from Barristan, it reminded Selmy of the first blood welling from a wound. Often, even with a deep cut, the blood came before the pain. Oh, I see you, George.

Yes. Yeah. Which it is true. It is true. You know, just as humans, you know, George. Yes. Yeah. Which it is true. It is true. You know, just as humans, you know, just as humans. Bring that nurse stuff in here, Shelly. Why is that? Well, I mean, I think a lot of times, you know, you get the blood and you can get cut and then it doesn't hurt until you see the blood once you see the blood then it's real then

you know it's there you can see it you can feel it i've totally forgot about that quote and i mean it's just so extremely appropriate right here in this in this in this chapter right here all of like the last chapters are so much in a row like a dance with dragons is a great book but there are definitely some stuff earlier on that like uh reading it with the combined reading like ball of beasts or uh feast dance those are great because the beginning of dance sometimes i feel like it can gap and i feel like i get kind of bored but the very end like once we get oh yeah these chapters holy shit do they slam yeah Yeah. It's like, boom, boom, boom. Yeah.

Lots in a row. And even Barristan's good. It was good. It was good. And I think that this is pointing this out is like super important because as people have said, like, John might not have noticed that it was a cut like at an important artery or something because something, because it's at his neck, and that's why his hand's not moving the way that he wanted it to. But I think that's interesting. I hadn't really known about that. It makes perfect sense that people don't feel the pain until they see the blood,

something psychological about that. I mean, the human body is, like, complete, like, shock, right? Like, it just goes into shock. I, like, sliced my leg open a long time ago really badly. And I immediately went into like, crazy shock. I didn't feel it. I just looked down and said, Oh, that's a lot of blood. Huh?

You know, I just yeah, nothing. Nothing. Yeah. It was like a raw, shocked, numb feeling. So yeah, and even he says above, he didn't feel the fourth knife because then he died so obviously we don't know if it's canon we know it's canon but john's stabbing and his getting stabbed here for you know kind of making a treasonous outlandish choice that he doesn't really have the the credibility to make slash it's you know against all of the laws and rules of the watch will this kind of

mirror Daenerys's death hmm interesting I didn't really think of it till now I really didn't think of it till this but it was weird the language like uh almost just the language of how marsh punched in the belly and then when he came out knife yeah i don't know food for thought food for thought there has to be some there has to be some sort of mirror like there's going to be a line or something that mirrors it i i don't think george could resist yeah i don't know what yet but yeah i could see that and i mean overall it's same thematics right it's someone kind of overreaching what they're doing yeah i mean if drogon also survives right it could be like oh her trying to reach out for droon or her dragon or something the way that Jon's reaching for the sword.

I thought you meant O as in Quentyn. I'm sorry. Oh, no, that was just a filler word. Sometimes I just say O. I mean, speaking of Quentyn, Jon's death juxtaposed against Quentyn's death in the last chapter is something here we should talk about. You get that line, Quentin turned and threw his left arm across his face to shield his eyes from the furnace wind. Rhaegal, he reminded himself. The green one is Rhaegal.

When he raised his whip, he saw the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him. All of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream. Two chapters, two princes in a row. So for George R.R. Martin, for his fifth book of this originally trilogy, he killed off two princes in a row.

Right. But the difference is John is the actual hero of the story and Quentin's not. Quentin thinks he's the hero. John gets to come back so if one fake prince can die I think that's pretty obvious foreshadowing that another fake prince like Aegon can die and

John coming back against those things kind of proves it you know you get the when you dance with dragons thematics through everything yeah and there's also like so first of all I just realized that the last line of quentin's chapter is absolutely an embodiment of what shelly was just talking about just now right of like you see the blood and then you feel the pain for quentin he didn't know until he

realized oh i'm on fire and he's just like oh interesting interesting interesting about that huh and you know we had discussed during the arian and quentin chapters how it's it's Interesting. Interesting. Interesting. And, you know, we had discussed during the Arianne and Quentyn chapters how it's Quentyn turning his back on one dragon in the same way that Dorne's doing so and not realizing, oh, that's going to bite them in the ass with turning their back on one dragon. And that's what Jon did just then. He turned his back on it wasn't quite a dragon, but one of the sort of enemies that he was juggling within the Night's Watch and ends up betrayed because of that.

Maybe Aegon will be betrayed. Maybe. I don't know. I mean, I'd say getting a can of wildfire lit up on your ass is pretty much betrayed. That's true. Especially if it's because of dragons. Maybe Dany betrays him. Oh, that would be interesting.

Maybe she says she wants to parlay and then she sees him sitting in her throat and she's like, oh, fuck you. I'd like that. I mean, she did do that. Fuck that kid. Fuck that kid. It's within her real house. She did that with the masters at Astapor, so it makes sense. Yeah, trickery.

She's not against deceit and trickery. She's pretty good at it. Good for her. Yeah, no, I mean it. Absolutely, she's very good and clever with that. And so coming back to Quentin and Aegon again, I'm going to for the 400th time on this podcast read aloud Robert Frost's poem Fire and Ice in regards to Jon coming back. So, some say the world will end in fire, some in ice. From what I've tasted of desire, I hold with those who favor fire. But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of Hay to say that four destruction ice is also great

and would suffice. And I will just say, perishing only once. Quentin. Quentin perishing only once. John will probably perish twice. I assume because I assume that maybe he'll eventually die one day, but I actually don't really know how the whole white thing works. Like, do you

just live on forever? Or like when you're resurrected, it seems like it could be the case for melisandre i don't know but anyways perishing twice last lines only felt the cold ice god i didn't even you know i'm really glad you think of this poem every single time we do an episode i mean it's literally the name fire and ice a poem of fire and ice well not to be a downer on this already down chapter but i just wanted to give you my new favorite quote that i frankensteined together for this exact purpose, which was John fought valiantly, John fought nobly, John fought honorably, and John died.

Why, Chloe? That's pretty great. Thanks, I have a lot of emotions as why, honestly. What do you think, Shelley? What's next for John? You know, I don't know. I don't know what's next. I think he's just going to chill. On ice? Yes, literally. And I don't know. I don't know what's next. I think he's just going to chill. On ice?

Yes, literally. And I don't know. I, you know, sometimes I wonder if we're ever going to get the books. And I wonder if George is just going to give us a big F you and change it all. I wonder these things late at night. What do you think? Who do you think is the reason why? Like, what do you think happens?

Is it Melisandre that brings him back? Is it? I mean, I guess it has to be. Yeah, I mean, I think so. That's what I've always thought since, you know, probably my second reread. That's what I've always thought. I mean, I don't know if this whole John warging into ghosts has any validity or if it's just, he's just not.

Oh, I think it has to. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. And I think that that's the great thing about this series is sometimes you just don't know. You think you know, but you don't. I mean, a lot of times you can figure it out. But truthfully, I got to think that it can't stray too far from the show. But as far as the resurrection is concerned, mean i i mean it's got to be melisandre but what happens from there i'm hoping that we just get tons of details and it's just

amazing and this book that we've all been waiting for for almost a decade finally satisfies that's all i really want is just a good story i can be okay with you know not getting the outcome i want as long as it's a good story yeah yeah i could agree with that i definitely think melisandre's involved i think i don't know i think shireen might be gone but but that doesn't make sense timing wise i don't know i don't know. I think Shireen might be gone. But that doesn't make sense timing-wise. I don't know. I don't know what to think, man. I just don't know. Monster will probably be gone. Yeah, we gotta see Shireen through Melisandre's POV. Yeah.

And so that has to happen separate from Jon. So maybe he won't be alive yet. Maybe we really will spend most of this book without Jon until the second half. I really think that could happen. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that's what I half i really think that could happen yeah definitely yeah that's what i think i think i think we could see some of him as a dog yeah right i think and by that i mean a wolf i really do think we will have a ghost chapter yeah i'm every single time

like now that elliott and i have looked at these so deeply i'm like oh i think we're gonna get a ghost chapter i mean think of just how frustrated he would be all this time he's been in power and been able to affect decisions at the night's watch and i think that would be really interesting for his story and his character because he's been able to do what he wants to an extent right even though the rest of his men are like i don't want to do that well guess what as a dog no one can fucking understand you because no one else's doctor do maybe borak could understand maybe he talks to the boar a little like wolf wolf wolf and then the boars like snort snort snort i see you right but that's that's the most that's the furthest it goes and he won't be able to do anything yeah he'd be helpless and who knows if the thoughts we even got from him would be i don't know it would be

something like cohesive you know what i mean like uh to pull much of like this is what john's thinking we might not even get that far we might just get ghosted this and he went here and did this and that's it i always think about who what's going to happen to John's body you know Davos isn't going to be there guarding his body you know I've always thought about that and then when we see how the show did it

like okay I get it from you know but how's it going to be in the book they're going to keep him on ice they're going to burn his body what it going to be in the book? They're going to keep him on ice? They're going to burn his body? What's going to happen? I've always wondered about that. Ooh, yeah.

Probably no haircut. I'd hope no haircut. That might have been a show thing. Yeah, yeah. That's definitely a show thing. Yeah. I guess we're going to have to wait to find out until we get our new copies next week of The Wind's a Winner. Yeah! Next week. It's copies next week of The Wind's Winner. Yeah!

Next week. It's coming next week. And then in the spring, the week after that. Yeah. You guys should check your subscriptions. You would know that already, obviously. If only. If only. Oh god, I wish. So, we spent some time just now reflecting on the passage of Jon,

thinking of these little vignettes, these images of his family at Winterfell, and that leading into his decision to store Winterfell with a pack of free folk. Great optics, once more. And it reminds me again of Maester amon's quote to john and john this time finally picks differently right of what is honor compared to a woman's love what is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms or the memory of a brother's smile which is what john one of the images that john thinks of winds and words wind and words we are only human in the gods have fashioned us for love that is our great glory and our great tragedy and i think that's just like

once more we've been seeing it throughout these past few chapters and dances and and storm especially of it seems as though it's not going to be as simple as the television show, right, where they make it like, oh, John's killing Daenerys because she's, I don't know, gone like full Hitler. I think that there's going to be more complexity for John and he's picking partially between, of course, his two families, the two memories, the two kinds of women's love, those his sisters those of his aunt lover and it's going to be i think he's going to pick the stark side and to protect his sisters and i think it's going to come down to something more like that his sister cousins you know in the way that it is for the harls and their children yeah you know earlier we talked about silver lining playbook and we brought up hemingway and we brought up Hemingway, and we brought up A Farewell to Arms, and there's this quote that I think really does encompass a lot of what John has gone through in this arc. hard growing up yes his stepmother was emotionally abusive to him but he ate he learns from these boys at the night's watch hey dude you lived an okay life time to make something else of yourself

and he does he doesn't sit there being a brat for more than a couple chapters right he says you know what i did have a little bit of extra help that these guys didn't and i'm going to work my way up now and to be fair he does kind of you know cheat that but it wasn't his fault it was Sam's so I blame Sam. It was Sam's it was Sam's fault for that but Sam did that because

that's Sam's bravery right and that's Sam thinks that John is a good person he knows John is a good person he knows that John is brave and courageous and He knows John is a good person. He knows that John is brave and courageous. And this quote from A Farewell to Arms by Hemingway, I thought really just fits John. If people bring so much courage to this world, the world has to kill them to break them. So of course it kills them. The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong at the broken places,

but those that will not break it kills it kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially if you are none of these you could be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry so bow and marsh looking at you there will be no special hurry but you're gonna die did you say broken man is this is this about the broken man yes this is literally the broken man speech is really what it is but but it's it's talking about you know fighting for the good in the world which john is um he's fighting for these peoples for these free folk even if he doesn't believe in the assimilation that he's putting them through he knows it's the only way to quote

unquote save them uh he's still trying and he's still trying to do the right thing and going south to winterfell wasn't the wrong thing that's also the right thing to do it's the wrong thing for john to do as lord commander it's the wrong thing for the lord commander to do but it's not wrong i mean john still did the right thing and the Lord Commander to do, but it's not wrong. I mean, Jon still did the right thing. And that's what makes him so great is because he tries to do the right thing. And even though he fucks up all the time, he still tries. And that's why he's so great as a character because he's like all of us. You know, we try to do the right thing but

fuck up all the time but i mean and and that's why i've always just loved john as a character is because even though he was sassy and bratty he was also you know brave and courageous and did the things that people needed to do, but were too afraid to do. So I think that he made some pretty stupid choices, but he made the choices that he made because he thought it was the right thing to do. And at the end of the day, that's really how we should all live our lives, right? Just do what you think is right. Yeah, do your best. Just get your gold star. Yeah, and you know what? Sometimes John might not have been the most interesting all the time, right? Maybe he wasn't

always very vast, so to say, but he always tried and I always give him his gold star sticker and I think that's all we can ask of him, especially because he's dead. Ow. Wow wow you really ended it there yep just wanted to make sure we remembered that we killed john we killed john snow and she made me do it i know i made you do it i invited shelly on here and i was like here here's the

knife you do it shelly yes uh push it, Shelly, what are your final feelings on this chapter on John? Tell us. And thank you so much for being on with us. We are so excited to have you. Thank you for having me on. It's been great. My final thoughts are I can't believe this is the last John chapter. can't believe this is the last john chapter it was very hard for me to keep reading and realize there wasn't going to be a john chapter i kept thinking my first time i read the book oh well

he's he's he's okay like he's just gonna pass out and then you know his body will go into shock, but you know, he'll be fine. But then you read and there's no more John. So my only thought is that, and how I try to live my life as me is you just have to hope that you're going to get the answers that you want. And you have to just keep holding on to the hope that you're going to get the answers you want, the book you want and you have to just keep holding on to the hope that you're going to get the answers you want the book you want and i'll you know that's another day but you know next week it's next week yes yeah you know so this is a tough chapter for me i like that it's not a particularly like you know super long chapter because it's so meaty and has so much in it. And I just can't believe it's over. I mean, this John POV with you guys has gone on for so long.

I can't believe it's over. I'm just, I mean, it's going to be done before, but yeah, agreed. I'm just, and I'm bummed about it though. Cause when you guys told me, you know, when I found out that you guys were doing John, I was like, yes pumped i was psyched i couldn't wait you know and now oh what is life i know i don't know how to feel yeah i do feel a little lost i really do um we kind of slowed down doing our john chapters and started doing you know just one at a time and i think it was worthwhile to do so because we've just caught so many details i don't think we would have caught stuffing a bunch together so i'm glad we took our time i really am me too yeah i i think we thought we were going to be done earlier but now as you said this has been

our life for like a couple of months we ended the show with john as a pov and i'm just like okay i kind of forgot how to start a new pov like what is that feeling like meeting someone new once more like we just got to know john so well and i think that's part of why we had to slow down because you know you get to a fifth book right and there's so much to a story and you feel like you have to slow down because there's so much that's being built into it and i think that's something that that really comes through with doing the pov read through and especially john's like there's so much that comes that's that's being built on each time the story is like a house and well and i think it really just to summarize it best is the quote from earlier

in this chapter summer friends will melt away like summer snows but winter friends are friends forever so you guys have been our winter friends forever forever i'm gonna put you we're gonna kill you kill you all and bring you all back from the dead so you can be with us forever that's not what we're doing Eliana you can't just tell them that when you subscribe for $30 and up you too can be killed

be part of our army of the dead Shelly tell everyone where they can find you on the internet and follow your hot takes on footballs and John you can find you on the internet and follow your hot takes on footballs. And John. You can find me at theladyshelly on Twitter. Heck yeah.

That is at theladyshelly. Yes. You can find me for some takes on football, for all things craziness, Jon Snow, you name it. I'm there. I really don't understand your football tweets, but I respect them. And I think that's what's important. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah, I see you. I see you. Well, as always, thank you guys so much for listening in to us. We finished Jon. This is it. We'll come back to Jon someday. We will. Someday. this is it. We'll come back to Jon someday. We will. Someday. Probably.

Right? Maybe. I hope. Next week? Not next week. But you can tune in in the beginning of February to hear us talk about Jaime Lannister. We'll be taking a week off, but we will be back. Back in action. Back in white.

Not back in black this time. What is up with that? On the 7th. Indeed. And so, keep up with those announcements. We are going to, of course, do our Historic Materials podcast last week of January, and you can know when all those happen

by following us on Twitter at Girls Gone Canon, C-A-N-O-N. Or, maybe you have thoughts. Maybe you too would like to mourn the end of Jon Snow, question mark, question mark, question mark, and want to send us an email at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. Make sure you're subscribed to us on podcast platforms across the internet. You can find us on Spotify, on Google

Play, on Apple Podcasts, on Podbean where we're hosted, at Acast, on Stitcher, you name it, we are there. And of course, we do have a Patreon where you can subscribe and be resurrected.

Patrons, Chloe's shaking her head, patrons, $5 and up. Don't have to miss out on one more A Song of Ice and Fire episode this month, because our Patreon episode this month will be about the Maiden Vault.

Yes, those sassy three sisters locked up in that vault. And their shitty other parts of their family that were like, yeah, that's fine, they can be in that vault wow that came off a little weird I guess. And there's shitty other parts of the family that were like yeah that's fine they can be in a vault. Like their brother anyways find out more about that at patreon.com

slash girls gone canon as we said and as always thank you so much for listening in you guys I have been one of your hosts Chloe and I have been another one of your hosts Eliana and thank you so much to Shelley for joining us and closing out this

months-long journey. Yes. Thank you, Shelley. My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, guys. They never felt the fourth knife. Wait, fuck. Only the cold. Damn it, Chloe. I can't help why I'm like this.