Girls Gone Canon Cast - ASOIAF Episode 82 - ASOS Jaime III FT. FanGirlJeanne

Episode Date: February 21, 2020

FangirlJeanne joins us for a breakdown of Jaime and Brienne's "sword fight", while we explore their dynamic even further and analyze why Jaime just can't be a nice boy. You can find FanGirlJeanne @FangirlJeanne, or over at this link. --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com 

Hello and welcome to Girls Gone Canon, A Song of Ice and Fire, episode 82, Jamie 3 and a Storm of Swords featuring, oh my god I'm so excited about this, featuring fangirl Jean. I am one of your hosts, Chloe, you know me from the internet, Liza Narber on Twitter, Tumblr, and LizaNarberGold.com. tumblr and lies in arbor gold.com and i'm another one of your hosts eliana you probably already know who i am so enough about me we have a guest we have a guest today it's fangirl gene and i'm fangirling it's fine oh my god fangirl eliana hey um i'm fangirl gene you can find me as fangirl gene pretty much everywhere on the internet i'm a writer and media critic and all-around loudmouth nerd. You know, you might know me from my recaps I used to do of the Game of Thrones show, or just of me generally annoying fans of the book series

by being brutally honest about characters and canon. Yes. The ultimate canon choice to have on the Girls gone canon podcast like jean is here to go canon on us yeah oh yeah canon putting canon on ships canons on ships oh yes who do you think you are you're on great god those weren't canons those were crossbows and i bet jamie would have some opinions about that that was a good segue, Eliana. Thank you. You're really good at this.

I'm getting better. I'm getting better, I think, just a little. I do want to flag, though, for everyone, as we enter this episode of Jamie 3, we are going to be talking about some issues of sexual assault and sexual violence and, you know, mutilation. So if that's not something you want to hear about, you you know feel free to join us again for a different episode yeah another time another time uh we haven't had that in a bit it's been what since theon so everyone pony up get it get you know comfy maybe a hot cocoa i don't know and you know before then we do have some some announcements we have as we said last week a giveaway for ice

and fire con yes we want you to come hang out with us at ice and fire con this year it is the last weekend of april it is in mount sterling ohio in deer creek state park is lovely and beautiful and it's a place to go party in the woods with a bunch of nerds and talk about a song of ice and fire and the show and you don't have to talk about the show if you don't want to i know most people don't want to anymore some people really do you know very few very few it's like 35 minutes outside of columbus uh a ton of our other friends are going to be there from the fandom like game of owns scad from davos fingers which i'm going to be there from the fandom, like Game of Owns, Scad from Davos Fingers, which I'm going to be on Davos Fingers soon. Oh.

Stay tuned for that. Yeah. Yeah. You didn't know that, did you? I didn't. Keeping secrets for me. Well, you know, Mistress of Whispers over here. We're going to talk about the world of Ice and Fire, the last 15 pages.

Look it up. History of Westeros is going to be there. Radio Westeros. More people. So many people. There's so many fun events, to be there. Radio Westeros, more people, so many people. There's so many fun events like tourneys. There's a tourney, a photo scavenger hunt, there's panels, there's content. And there's a couple of panels we're actually on, I think. So we'll talk about those sometime in the future. But to get into the giveaway for a weekend pass,

some free Girls Gone Canon merch and a drink on us at ice and fire con alcoholic one each one eat one drink each i will buy you one and eliana will buy you one eliana how can they enter this giveaway how does it happen tell me i'm gonna do better this week everyone please send us an email with a subject line that says favorite POV. Literally put the words favorite POV in your subject line. Please include a character that is your favorite POV, but even if you don't, just put that in your subject line and give us a short blurb. Tell us why this is your favorite POV characters slash chapters, right? And then you will be entered for a random drawing as much as we will appreciate everything that everyone sends to us,

but we do not want to... I don't feel like judging. All right, I just don't. And then we are closing... This is a safe place. Yes, exactly. We are closing submissions March 1st and we will announce March 13th,

the day before Pi Day. Thank you very much to our mysterious benefactor, Illyrio Mopatis. Yes, Illyrio. And you know what? This isn't your only chance. I think that Radio Westeros, at the very least, a couple of other folks are also,

have some other mysterious patrons. You know, maybe Yezenzo Kogaz or something, right? I think it's really Illyrio just not putting all of his dragon eggs in one basket, Eliana. Smart. Smart, yes. And like the very really Illyrio just not putting all of his dragon eggs in one basket, Eliana. Smart. Smart, yes. And like the very real Illyrio, so very interesting.

Yep. Jean, who's your favorite POV? Oh, God, you're making me choose? Okay, I'll give you three. I'll give you three to five. No, no, no, no, no. It has to be one. The choosing has always been the hardest.

Oh, my God. I gotta hurt me um uh i'll just uh okay right now today my mood that's a lot i'm gonna say i'm gonna say sansa i'm just gonna stick with it yeah that was a good choice though that's they're all good choices there isn't a bad po pick. Like. There's not a wrong answer to this. Right. There's not a wrong answer. Yes, it's Chet. I mean. Well.

They all got stuff to offer. You know, I even respect Victorian stans. Seriously. I like Brits. I mean. Oh, yeah. Buttered toast. Okay.

Whatever. Yeah, sometimes. Did you say ducks? buttered toast whatever yeah sometimes did you say ducks I mean I'm just equating things to Victorians intelligence oh okay I was like why would you do ducks dirty like that that was generous no that was really rude to ducks

don't mean to ducks I know quack quack well Eliana are you gonna face your shame and tell everybody why you're sorry cause you're leaving am I sorry I don't know sorry not sorry

I'm leaving for good no not for good just for a few weeks I'm leaving for a fortnight Chloe's like what the hell Jean you gotta take over this is your podcast now um just abandoning you and leaving you in charge i just got drafted i know i'm like i am the wall is yours jean snow and oh my god my watch is now begun surprise maybe it'll be Jean maybe not Chloe's gonna replace me

and by that I mean with guests not guests I don't know who knows Ali, Jake, the cast, Jaharis and Alisand no I don't know I don't know no Faye from Her Dark Materials and Amy and Ian from the Dark Material podcast

are actually joining me for a podcast for our patron episode this month, which is going to also be shared with the public. Eventually, the patron episode will air by the end of February for patrons only five dollars and up. And then, of course, and that will air for the public on March 6th as well. and that will air for the public on march 6th as well uh so we will share this month we'll be in the spirit of giving this month while eliana steps out on us yes we'll have the dark material podcast and half of her dark materials on and we are going to discuss the secret commonwealth more of a broad discussion and just a general conversation faye is about to finish it. Amy and Ian have finished it recently and read it a bit. So we'll get some good insight, some introspect, you know, just a general discussion. Can't cheat on Eliana too hard. I mean, it would only be right after what I'm doing to you. So what I'm doing to

all of all of our listeners. It's like, is it my fault that you're leaving? It's not. It's not. I'm sorry. I just got to do it for me. Do it for yourself. Maybe one day we will have a discussion about the secret commonwealth. Because guess what? I finally finished the beautiful sausage. La Belle Sauvage. How, how, okay, no, no details, but just like thumbs up, thumbs down.

How was it? It was very good. Thumbs up. Thumbs up. Okay, good. Well, we will definitely talk about that in detail i don't know maybe that'll be a future patron episode we'll see maybe it'll be a future public episode but i'm very happy you finished it thank you for doing

this for me i will do this thing for you i won't put any pressure on you for the next one you can do this on your trip you can uh not do it you know maybe for a year we'll do another month or two and then i will put pressure on you then whatever okay okay no big in that time being uh until that patron episode comes out we have this episode and then on march 6th you'll get that patron episode going public for the public. Public, public, public. And then Eliana will come back the next week. And on the 13th, we will announce the winner for the Ice and Fire Con giveaway. And we will jump into Jamie 4.

So buckle up. We're going to dive into some emails of note into our lightning round. And then we are going to get some really awesome insight from our friend jean here moving on to our emails of note we did get a message from rita one of our patrons hey rita rita said i've been an avid listener for a while love the perspective that you bring to a swath i want to ask do you think jamie would have killed aries if it had been anyone else outside the city gates we know jamie was mostly spurred to action by the revelation Ares planned on nuking the city, but he also talks about his struggle with the demand he bring Ares his father's head. We have reason to question that Ares would have stopped with Tywin.

If it had been like Ned Stark's or Robert Baratheon's hosts outside the city, do you think anything would have turned out differently? Ooh, that's a really good question. Especially because, yes, it was to stop Ares from burning the city. But, you know, Ares did just say, you should kill your dad or else I'll kill you. And also, you know, there's a little pride. Like, he finally realized, huh, Ares really did that shit to my family and me. You guys brought something up in the episode for Jamie one about how you know,

George presents has presented before like Jamie's motivations is kind of complex and like throwing Bran out the window to defend his children, and that kind of stuff. But I don't see especially Jamie at the during the Ares era age, putting a lot of thought into anything. I think what we're seeing in his reflections and memories is a dude who's had years and especially a year in a dungeon to think about everything he's done and to justify all of his bad choices and to be resentful and stew and stew. But I really see a lot of the choices, you know, of, you know, getting knighted young and agreeing, you know, to get the, you know, to get steady sister booty by agreeing to be a Kingsguard. Almost all of those choices really feel like they're impulses. that I don't think that you know I mean I definitely think that he was probably

relieved when he heard that his father was at the gates and he probably is really conflicted about you know being told to co-kill his dad but I don't think that he put a lot of thought I don't think Jamie put a lot of thought into anything he did until he was you know captured and put in it right like i mean he's never had to because because tyrian's the thinker and cersei has always been the top and so i think that go ahead yeah so i mean i think that uh like i think that he has even with his you know his rationalization when he talks to you know later in the tubs with brianne and talking about you know what happened

um i think that's all an adult's reflection on justifying his choices but i jamie's so much about him especially the aspect of him that's a fighter is all about trusting his instincts and living in the moment and that's where he's most comfortable that's where he's most himself and that's where I feel with stuff like this it's better to just go with he did it because he wanted to do it at that moment that that just was the thing just like sitting on the throne it was the thing to do in the moment I think that's some really good context to put around it. I mean, yeah, it's always worth remembering. We're starting Jamie's POV in the middle of the book series and in the middle of his life, right?

It's not the same as with a lot of the Stark children. It's the beginning of their lives. Even Theon, you know, he's young. And Theon was doing that too. He's just like, I don't know. I'm just going to do it. And to be fair to all of them, I mean, the killing of the people,

not super fair, but maybe for Ares. But I wasn't putting that much thought into my life decisions at that age either. Right, exactly. Teenage me was a dingus. Les was riding on me. So pretty. Les was on my shoulders.

No. I say the same about 17- no, I'm joking um a lot also wasn't riding on him like his sister you know oh that reminds me right as you said you know seriously was a top someone tweeted us today or yesterday with a reminder of i think we have said before that jamie is a bottom on this yeah so quite obviously i don't think anyone needs to you know tweet it it's just like a thing it's canon it's just known in the universe right i've been hyperbolic about it before but like especially in the first times that we meet him when he's kind of

like circling ned and and you know kind of negotiating the other characters and moments. It really is just like, please, someone step on my throat. Actually, yeah. And that's maybe what happens in this chapter. Regarding this message, I do think Jaime would have still done it on a meta narrative level. Like, obviously, it was going to happen but like we see Jamie's memories right we see that it's like this ramping up progression and I think it's kind of the same that we see how for John the narrative just gives him all these tests like okay like what is going to make his character break what's going to make you break your oaths right we we discuss all the different

ways that John is tested I think for Jamie it's kind of like that, you know, they're like, it asks, well, would you break your oaths when you saw this unjust thing with a father and son being burnt? No. Okay. How about with Rayella being like assaulted, right? No. What about when it's your own family and the king's asking you to behead your own family? Still not then. And it's finally, I think enough for Jamieie to a like maybe he didn't think about it that much but like with the city at stake he's like no this is it this is where i draw the line and he ends up paying the price for it with with his honor his reputation john pays the price obviously too because he announced it to an entire room of people who were against him uh and neither of them get away with it they they both sort of suffer a death john very

literally for jamie i think it's his identity he stops being jamie the king's guard like the precocious prodigy white knight and it becomes the kingslayer well and it is kind of in in um in line with the way that george flips cliches or favorite tropes about, you know, our ideas, our myth-making about when you do the right thing, you get rewarded for doing the right thing. And in this world and in the real world, when you do the right thing, often you don't get a reward. You don't get, you know, heralded for doing it.

Often it ends up being a terrible thing that ruins your life and i think great pointing out john for sure i do i definitely see that we see a reflection of of this young men or young boys being the position of men making huge choices and fucking up or even when they do the right thing it ends up scarring them for life and or ending their life. And I think that that's there's definitely some echoing happening again with Jamie and John. So many things to talk about those two, but I won't. I'll pull back on that for now. So many podcasts, they make you talk and talk.

It's always good every time, you know, the joke lands every time. Yeah good every time you know the joke lands every time yeah every time like it works for every single scenario everyone uh there are no podcasts like ours only ours oh my god actually we don't know about that um i mean so so we got a message from our friend lo we talk about lo we talk about them constantly some days we're like lo we wish you would just run the podcast because you're smarter but don't tell lo that we said that though uh don't tell any of our fans we said that maybe that's he's gonna replace me anyway oh my god yeah so lo sent us uh some great thoughts uh expanding on brienne and the performance of gender uh in the discussion last episode lo said you mentioned how you could read brienne maybe as non-binary or genderqueer or just as a woman who doesn't fit

the expectations set by society um i'm not sure how i read her to be honest but i can see the arguments in either directions and lo of course is someone who is an expert and does a lot of work in gender studies and also is gender queer so lo says you mentioned in the episode that it seems like brienne doesn't exactly dislike her body since it allows her to do what she wants to do fighting etc i think that the idea that trans or non-binary people dislike their body is sometimes exaggerated. This is of course true for some people, but other people would rather describe it as disliking how society perceives their body. If I might use myself as an example, I don't dislike my body, but it makes me uncomfortable that people assume that I'm a woman based on my body. Some trans and non-binary people want to

change their body because of this discomfort, others don't. But the narrative that trans people hate their bodies oversimplified and might actually do damage. And Lo actually links an article here, and we can link that as well for people to look into it. And then Lo likens it to their own experiences of being a genderqueer person who feels similarly to Brienne and how people assume that based on her biology, she must personify certain traits and behave in certain ways. People who do identify as women can also feel like this. So I don't know how Brienne identifies, I think it remains somewhat unclear, but she doesn't conform to gender norms and that means that she has to put up with a

lot of shit regardless of how she actually identifies and also says p.s please pet the cats for me chloe that's an important part of the message low also send a follow-up with images of their own cats so yes low is like my cat mate from across the the area here they uh they actually asked me some questions about the cats on the podcast a couple weeks ago on our twitter saying like oh what are they like in real life and i do want to tell you guys at a lighter note that these cats are 1.5 year old kittens that keep me up forever um ally is super friendly and social and lovely she has a little baby chub just like her mom and a cute gray stripe on her chin and she likes to put her toys in her water bowl for safekeeping yep she thinks no one will

go there and get those toys and find them and then she likes to burrow beneath things and then jaharis is bad he's ill-behaved he misbehaves all the time he climbs everything he claws things he wants to play he gets the mail very weird he likes amazing fetch it is amazing it should be viral honestly uh sometimes he's so affectionate i can't even think straight he's very sweet but they're the best cats everyone should meet them you should meet them you'll love them all of you should i'm a fan he used to be so so shy gene do you have cats any animals you would like to discuss yes i have uh sif and sansa and so yeah and uh sansa is two years old two years old and Sif is 13 14 now she's a rescue they're both rescues and that you know as two females um they I don't know what it is about female cats but

I found this to be true and they're confirming, that they grudgingly accept each other's presence. But there has been no official establishment of dominance, but it's always in flux. Yeah, coming back to Lo's message, I absolutely agree with everything that Lo is saying. And I really appreciate this message. Lo always has great insights. And we actually plugged one of their Twitter threads last episode, and we'll talk a little bit about that again. And yeah, about Brienne, you know, I don't, I'm sorry if I misrepresented anything. I do agree that, you know, it's because of Brienne's body and the narratives that society imposes on Brienne, like as Lo was saying, it seems more as

though Brienne dislikes how she's treated because of it. I don't know, but we'll discuss it more. I need to refresh on how Brienne thinks about her body, and it's less to do, you know, with whether or not she dislikes it so much as the way, again, society has abused her for failing to conform. We see it so much with like her quote-unquote suitors and hyle hunt's gonna play a big role in how we discuss that later on and as of right now i think part of how brienne differs from jamie like this this made me think is like that she internalizes the way that society views her and that hatred and kind of turns it inward towards herself whereas jamie

turns it outward and that's a lot of the way that Jamie pokes at Brienne of like, oh, I can't believe you think this thing, this thing about honor and is trying to get Brienne to do that. And there's a part of me that thinks like, maybe not for the parts about knighthood and the like good values that are in society, right? But maybe Brienne could be better off

with a little more outward anger at society and could learn a bit from Jamie on that front. It's almost like they change each other. Wow. What? Who would ever? They evolve together. Wait, wait, aren't there Pokemon that, sorry, I'm done.

I was going to say they like, you put them next to each other and morph them into one like an anamorph. Oh no no no the Digimon the later Digimon stages. Wait is this Brainy? Oh my god. We always run into this problem when we're talking about a text that obviously came from a person and their perspective and I think yeah one of the great things that George did is he, you know, that a lot of other people in the genre don't do or haven't done in the past is think about how gender informs a person and in his characters. One of the reasons I love his work is because, you know, women don't just exist when dudes are in the room.

They exist outside of the men in their lives. And, and he put, he seemed to have put a lot of thought into how they, you know, how do they live and react to the world around them. And I, but I do think that there is, you know, a limitation that can come from a cis writer kind of talking about something. You know, he's only seeing maybe like one spectrum of light and that there's a whole other spectrum that he doesn't see, so he's not really addressing.

So it's difficult to kind of, you know, talk about ultraviolet range stuff when we're only seeing, you know, just one range of light when it comes to gender in the story i do think that he definitely he plays at the edges when it comes to like brienne and even aria and even to some extent uh cersei and the way that her own view of her gender is almost as an other that in so many ways she kind of views her body as a tool and and which isn't necessarily you know i'm not saying that that's a trans narrative per se i'm saying that that much like low points out is that that the cis women deal with that as well that these are different

ways that women kind of negotiate living in this oppressive violent patriarchy that is Westeros. And I think what's actually kind of the thing that I like about Brienne is that for gender, like a great example is that gender isn't really a thing except when other people are putting it on her. So we don't really, like you said, she doesn't really have kind of like any like deep internal struggle about whether she's a woman or not. Like, it's just a thing. It's all these other dudes that put her in dresses or talk about her tits and say that she can't be a knight. And it is interesting how much Jamie's view of her and her gender is informed by Cersei. Jamie's view of her and her gender is informed by Cersei and how we learn a lot about how what how's her Cersei excuse me cat sorry again um we see a lot of in a love insight into how Cersei views her own femininity and her and

resents her body and her femininity through the way that Jamie put projects what he thinks is really upsetting Brienne opposed to what the way that Jamie projects what he thinks is really upsetting Brienne, opposed to the fact that he's just an annoying fuck. Pointing that out, and how a lot of different women and characters interpret their gender in the story, it is interesting that some of the first impressions we ever get of Brienne is through Catelyn is this woman who absolutely embraces her gender roles and being what what a Westerosi society says a woman should be yes yes and then that we get that beautiful perspective through Catelyn's eye of but also fear of having a daughter like that. And I could go on a long tangent about Catelyn's fear around how much Ned indulged Arya.

But that's another time. But yes, yes. Let's hop into our lightning round. We've got lots to explore with Jean today. Woohoo! Yes. So we'll kick it off with Tyrion 2. Tyrion learns who is

bankrolling some of his obstacles in King's Landing. He plans to send Shae away. Plans. Plans. Rhyming. Plans within plans. Arya too.

Arya and company come across a brotherhood of men at the Inn of the Kneeling Man, and the men take their horses for three golden dragons. Arya recognizes one of the men with them. It's Harwin. Bow, bow, bow, bow. Catelyn too. Edmure goes against battle plans, but Rob does a little bit of projecting in the face of his own mistake. Coming home with a not-fray wife.

Ooh. I mean, I have one hand. Yeah, I mean, you you know i get it but yeah yeah yeah john too john spends the night in egret's bed sanza too sanza is fit for a new but dast, gown. Dantos tells Sansa that she should distrust the Tyrells. Arya 3. Harwin tells the tale of the trapped Tywin. Oh, sorry. Arya 3. Harwin tells the tale of the trap Tywin had laid for Eddard originally

and how the Brotherhood came to be. They plan to take Arya to Lord Beric. The Lightning Lord. Sorry. I'm sorry, it just sounds like the Thunder Down Under. Sorry. Oh. Talk about that

Thunder Dick. What? The Lightning Lord. Yeah, for real though. Any man that survives that much death, I'm just saying. Samwell 1. Sam slays an other to protect him and his brothers. Tyrion 3. A seemingly long and tedious small council session

is suddenly kicked back to life when Tyrion learns who he gets to marry. Spoiler alert, it's the same person getting a new gown. Catelyn III, furious at the Kingslayer's freedom, Rickard Karstark kind of loses his head. Insert the Arrested Development theme. Do-do-do-do. Sorry. Oh, man.

Are we allowed to put that in? Okay. I mean... And that brings us to Jamie 3. A maiden in a knight's spar, but the knight loses more than his honor. It's his virginity, but not. Sorry.

No, actually, it's his hand. Yeah, it's his hand. Remember, warning, there will be brutality at the very end here. Yikes. And there's also going to be some really big sexual tension so don't put this on uh your speakers at work maybe just keep it to the headphones guys before we start off in this episode i love that there's this little three chapter rush right tyrian 2 ends with with Jane's honeypot status basically being revealed

if you watch Tywin. If you watch how he responds to Tyrion's questions and his non-answers, you realize Jane Westerling is kind of a honeypot. The first time you read it, you don't realize that until you get through it all. And then the second time you're like, oh, I'm so stupid. Why didn't I realize it? But Catelyn 2, we then see Jane up close, we hear about the herbs and teas her mother is giving her. And then in Jamie, not in this chapter, but far, far later, Jamie is the next chapter here, Jamie three. But far, far later, Jamie is, of course, he has the dealing with Sybil. So George has this really great sense of weaving these characters and these plots together

near each other throughout these next couple books. And I really love it. And I thought it was worth it to highlight it and point it out today. Yes, I'm excited for when we get to those exchanges. Jean, did you want to talk about this? Or did you want to bring this in somewhere else, this side point that you have here? Yeah, no, I wanted say because um it's always kind of a thing i mean been in the fandom for a while now and there's always a lot of discussion about um jamie and cersei's relationship and about whether it's love whether it's not love is it abuse and who's the actual abuser and um i think i think that actually george does a really good job of making it very complex and kind of showing that, A, it's not healthy. It is love in as far as these two extremely damaged, neglected children knew what love was. And I think that that's a huge factor in both their relationship and how they see love and

I the best way that I can sum up and you'll see we'll see it as we go through the chapter especially as in how Jamie interacts with everyone and how he views the world as kind of things that he can get what he wants and is my old my old internal note that has always been the Lannisters are capitalism and you can really like insert a whole thing about Parasite in there as far as like everything is transactional for Lannisters um and this is always a um an underlying um weakness for all of them in that that they really do feel that they can buy anything with their gold. And that's each one of them from Tyrion to Cersei, even to Tywin and Jaime, they view everything kind of transactional. And that's one of the ways to

really kind of look at Jaime and Cersei's relationship in that they may see it as narcissistic love, you know, loving themselves and loving each other, but there is a transaction to it. And you see it a lot. I was going to mention again about you guys talking about Jamie one, about how his whole focus when watching Robert drunkenly get into the wheelhouse with Cersei, which is marital rape, was not about, oh, is Cersei okay? This must be horrible. It is, I should be getting some. And that frames the tone of what their actual relationship is

as far as how sex has worked as a transaction between them and in their discussion and an argument about throwing bran out the window again you saw the whole conversation was us a kind of sword fight was well you fucked up because we could have fixed it this way well it doesn't matter because i'll just kill everybody anyway. Well, you know, back and forth and back and forth until he fucks her and essentially wins the fight and that everything is transactional and kind of combatant with all of them. And that really kind of embodies how Jamie views sexual and romantic in all relationships. And I think that's true of Cersei and we'll probably discuss that more when we get to Cersei's chapters. But I think that's such a good point that I haven't really thought about of how

they their entire family sees relationships through yeah and you see like especially when Jaime's interacting with with you see it in his internal monologue with with Brienne about like if she's rude to him well I'll be rude back to her. And I would be nice to them. And even the humor of I'll give them back the girls because they won't expect it because I'm giving them something for free because it'll be funny. Own the libs. Own the libs, Jamie. Right, right. Oh, you edgelord.

Fuck. Yeah, so. You know, last episode, we actually also talked a lot about how Jamie and the Lannisters in general, it's a mob family, you know, and that's the only love they had. And that was a mob family. And the life was being a Lannister. And we're going to talk a little bit later on about identity and his relation to the Kingsguard. And when he finds out the Kingsguard is bullshit, where that identity goes, it goes nowhere. He had to absorb the Lannister identity.

That's all he had left was daddy's money. where he had to absorb the Lannister identity. That's all he had left was daddy's money. And it's left him kind of a little hollow in some areas. And we're working at it. We're building it up. So we'll start building it up on the King's Road. The King's Road is littered with destruction, burnt trees, bridges, fields.

Heavy rain has kept the water level high. And at night, wolves are howling. Wolves are howling. I did this last episode. Why hollowing wolves are howling i did this last episode why can't i say howling anymore at night wolves are howling but they see no people half the homes have been smashed and burnt and only feral dogs slink through the night by the way dogs anyone cligane reference anyone this early in the chapter oh dogs go dogs i just was surprised by that yeah so soon also soon coming upon maiden pool where the red salmon flies they see the the the in fact maiden pool where florian the fool had first quote-unquote glimpsed jonk while bathing with her sisters

and you know there's not so much of that now now there's just like dead bodies floating in the water human soup is never attractive i'm sorry when you made you make it sound like that i mean maybe it could be i mean what i there's just like no season okay i'm done i'm done we'll get to that with Bran chapters. Oh, yes. And I was going to comment about it repeats this pattern throughout the chapter. And honestly, all of Jaime's POV is that he always seems to like to find the ugly side of everything beautiful.

And it's almost like he's just got a dunk on all of it. And it's almost like he's just got a dunk on all of it. And you really see that reflected in, you know, like this of that. He's like, oh, look, it's the Maidenpool clogged up with corpses. Narc. But and which explains also why he just can't stop like picking at Brienne because she she doesn't show. And like, I mean, obviously she is, she is you know you know physically ugly to him but um but she doesn't like show that she's a liar or you know any of the things that everybody else is like and we'll you know obviously we'll get into that more into the chapter but yeah if

i don't get to have fun right in night why should you god he even so he breaks out in song he's being mighty jolly here he's singing six maids there were at a spring-fed pool and all of this bits of the passage really brings to mind a lot of stuff uh some stuff that's recently been written in fire and blood part one like jonquil dark and alice and targaryen in light of brienne especially since they are about to go through dusk and dale and justin bitt from fire and blood the town of maiden pool was far famed for the sweetwater pool where legend had it that flory and the fool had first glimpsed jonquil bathing during the age of heroes so woman only were allowed within this pool in fire and blood alice and targaryen goes to maiden

pool and she is attacked by women who do not wish for her to ruin their holy maiden pool water with her demon targaryen incest belly spawn i guess i understand because she is in a no dudes allowed pool her shields almost don't make it in time to save her they send for jonquil dark the bastard daughter of lord darkland to escort her where no send for Jean-Claude Dark, the bastard daughter of Lord Darkland, to escort her where no men can go from now on. There's passage from Fire and Blood. A raven flew to Duskendale that very night, commanding the new Lord Darkland

to send to court his half-bastard sister, Jean-Claude Dark, who had thrilled the small folk during the war for the White Cloaks, the mystery knight known as the Serpent in Scarlet. She arrived at king's landing a few days later and accepted appointment as the queen's own sworn shield i think it's safe to say george is playing with jamie and brienne as a reflection of this florian and jean-quill

setup while jamie's not obviously florian or jean-quill to the eye good looking nice armor highborn he still fits some of the premise jamie has a famous sword and brienne won in a feast for crows uh she thinks of the stories she was told by her nurse and florian the fool is one of them who had a famous sword she thinks and of course you get from the hedge knight which we've talked about brienne's connection with duncan egg and the hedge knight where jean quill and florian in the puppet play are flirting. And Jean Quill says, you are no knight. I know you. You are Florian the Fool. And he says, I am my lady, as great a fool as ever lived and as great a knight as well.

A fool and a knight? I have never heard of such a thing. Sweet lady, all men are fools and all men are knights where women are concerned. Sweet lady, all men are fools and all men are knights where women are concerned. And of course, the bathhouse of Harrenhal is a great comparison to the pool of maidens where Brienne saves Jaime in the pools while giving him his name back. That's a great connection back to the bathhouse, which we'll get to in a bit. It's gonna be exciting. But yeah, yeah, yeah. George has been playing with a lot of different, I think,

incarnations of Brienne and Jaime throughout history, as you pointed out with Jonquil and Flory and also with Rohan and Dunk. Yes, and ideas of... The pools is really interesting, especially the linking between the purity of the pool and the ideas of purity around maidenhood and virginity, which, you know, I think that that's an interesting play as well,

especially as we get on further when it comes to like Brienne and, and her maidenhood and, and all that. It's definitely like a rebirthing for Jamie too, which we'll obviously talk about someday when we let him be reborn in those baths but it's a big rebirth kind of thing it's very interesting i do love that brienne in this scene is having like none of jamie singing she's like shut the fuck up kingslayer and he's just an annoying little mouthy shit that won't stop fucking with her and i think he loves that she's just like shut the fuck you know i mean she doesn't swear but she just doesn't put up with

this shit and just like lashes out at him immediately and isn't like other women who would be like you know either quiet or demure um opposed to like cersei who would probably tell him to shut up too. She's got a type. Yeah. Oh, he really does. And he's a bottom, you know. Cleos is like, yes, you should be quiet Jaime because we're passing through Lord Witton's lands. He's sworn to

Riverrun and Jaime wonders like, alright, well, whose enemies are they? And once again, you know, how would how would Brienne do against him in sword fighting? Sword fighting? Sure, that's what you're thinking. He asks Brienne to unchain him and he calls her Wench, of course. And she's like, it's Brienne.

The choice of Wench specifically, although he does say m'lady or something like that. Would you like to dance m'lady or something like that would you like to dance uh m'lady or something that later but wench is an interesting choice of words when you think about the class of that much like dog he's not calling her bitch but he is he is putting he's putting her below him she is just another sword that serves the Lannisters or now they're serving she's serving the Starks but you know yeah yeah he he doesn't want her to be on the same level or playing field right like Cersei is his equal if he separates Brienne and puts her there she does not matter to him that is really interesting in the class aspect um you know it's also like Brienne we

only really begin to get her story as her own identity crisis begins. So like her being called wench throughout all this, like names are obviously such a big deal in this story. Jamie, that's why he keeps insisting on being like, you should call me Jamie instead of Kingslayer. She's like, hmm, no. And for Brienne to just constantly demand that he acknowledge her name and not use that classed term against her I don't know it's significant because it makes me think of like Theon and her being like no this is my name and Theon always being like you have not always but him at the end of dance being like you have to remember your name so I I just think it's really great that

Brienne throughout all of the storm of swords she's she's steadfast in like, I'm Brienne. And it's only like later on in her POVs when we finally get them that she really begins to question her allegiance because those pools of loyalty become really like murky because she's like, I guess I'm following Jaime's orders. But they're also technically Sir Catelyn, not Sir, they're also technically Lady Catelyn's orders. I'm getting confused. Orders. So, yeah, and you two are going to talk more about names in a bit. But for now, Jamie's

like, ooh, maybe I'll wash you in Maidenpool. Again, thinking about Cersei in the same time he's thinking about Brienne or talking to Brienne, and this is replicated throughout both chapter one and chapter two where he's constantly kind of entangling them in his head he's trying to get more entangled that boy is a mess he is a mess yeah as they go through

the burnt riverlands jamie once more thinks of a, and they end up taking the Duskendale Road. And then Jaime thinks once more on Cersei. He could never bear to be long apart from his twin. Even as children, they would creep into each other's beds and sleep with their arms entwined, even in the womb. Long before his sister's flowering or the advent of his own manhood, they had seen mares and stallions in the fields and dogs and bitches in the kennels and played at doing the same. Once their mother's maid had caught them at it. He did not recall just what they had been doing,

but whatever it was, it had horrified Lady Joanna. She'd sent the maid away, moved Jamie's bedchamber to the other side of Casterly Rock, set a guard outside Circe's and told them they must never do that again or she would have no choice but to tell their lord father. They need not have feared, though. It was not long after she died birthing Tyrion, Jaime barely remembered what his mother had looked like. I couldn't help think about, you know, especially with him constantly thinking about Cersei, but in

this very particular way of her being entwined with his own view of himself, is thinking about Cersei but in this very particular way of of her being entwined with his own view of himself is thinking about how what the times in which Jaime was away from Cersei and this is obviously one of those times this is where he changes a great deal and um I was thinking again like how how much he how he defines himself based on Cersei in relation to Cersei. But also a really interesting and important aspect that we're going to get into shortly is the one thing that really defines him differently or separates him from Cersei and even Tyrion, who are both, you know, Cersei is the ambitious one, Tyrion's the smart one, and he's not either of those things. He's just good with the sword. And how much, you know, he has himself and his identity wrapped up in that sword, and how all that's going to change real soon. Yeah, there's a lot of like, how, how do you get better when you're taking the same poison every

day that keeps killing you and getting him away from Cersei has really been instrumental in getting him to finally evolve a little bit so much of his behavior um really reflects um substance abuse disorder behaviors and we see that in toxic relationships too. But like how often you see, we see his thought pattern where he gets near something he doesn't like or is kind of ugly, Aries, and he will just dive right back into obsessing about his sister

and how that likely is kind of how he's coped throughout his life with all of the trauma, losing his mother, losing his family you know and being kind of shit on by everyone and Ares and all of that and that how being obsessed with Cersei and and getting sex from Cersei and really kind of fixating on on her like he's still 17 is kind of a way that he uses to numb himself to all the other problems and of course now he's been away from her for over a year and it's not working and it's gonna

really not work soon emotionally stunted for sure in that 17 year old boy mode yeah jamie thinks that stannis telling everyone about the incestuous relationship he has with Cersei was actually a favor. After all, the Targaryens practiced incest. Why not them? I mean, the only problem is they could lose the throne. No big deal. NBD. NBD.

It's only based on that claim, guys. No worries. Yeah. They gotta get their good PR team team you know as as it goes um i mean like that's the thing it maybe they if the political narrative wasn't so against them but it is there's also like the whole power aspect like like the targaryens had the power of dragons and they used that to bend the societal rules to what they wanted, the religious rules. And, like, I mean, yes, again, PR campaign.

Jaehaerys ran a very, very extensive one, which was kind of rooted in eugenics, but whatever. They had enough. A little bit. Just a bit. Oh, yeah, by the way, his wife made all of his decisions that were good. Yeah. Yeah, also true.

Sorry. Also true. You and carry on they had yeah but like the targaryens they had enough power to overcome that really strong religious power that would have undone them it almost did quite a few times uh in those early stages of the targaryen conquest as we see in fire and blood but i i really appreciate that a song of ice and fire you know people act like the Seven, again, I'm harping on this, doesn't have power because it isn't magical,

but it's a huge political power and force in Westeros. It comes to the forefront in Feast. It's something George has continued exploring in Fire and Blood. And Jaime doesn't seem to get this or understand why they can't get away with it. And Cersei does.

And that's part of why she's like oh maybe maybe i could try and make an alliance with the high sparrow if i do this thing but she played the game all wrong in that moment it backfired and um you know maybe it was good maybe it was good that everyone didn't actually know or they didn't believe that she was sleeping with her twin brother in that moment. That wouldn't have gone well. Where's your lawyer, Cersei? Okay, I was just going to point out, I do think it is a great point to bring,

like to point out how the Targaryens, you know, there really isn't much of a difference between the Targaryens and the Lannisters, especially with, you know, Jaime. Like those relationships, I mean, I get everybody's got, you know, they've got their ships. I ship some of them too, but like, it is still like, it is horrific abuse of, of, of daughters and mothers and sisters and cousins that was happening in that family all for political power. It was not, you know, whatever propaganda we were told,

it was all to maintain political power within one family. And what I think is actually interesting is that the Lannisters almost did it. They almost did it. And the comparisons between the two regimes are really a difference between a military authoritarian structure when it comes to dragons as being a military power versus an economic, you know, political system, because the Lannisters brought money. They didn't bring guns. They didn't bring, you know, they brought armies that they bought with their gold. And so I think that they really actually got close the problem was that um

honestly I love Tywin I got feelings I love him um but one of the things I think that he did underestimate was and honestly what happens in Jamie in this chapter is a great example of it is that he he didn't realize that there are certain things you can't buy and that there are that the that that they didn't that he didn't account for the cultural differences that were at play with a lot of these different houses and i think the that cersei was smart in trying to go to the high spararrow, but she's only so smart, you know? I mean,

just like with Tyrion the same way, like they've got their, they've got their strengths, but they're not, I mean, everything like, Oh, I got to fit this in everything Tyrion says to Cersei,

he should be telling himself because he's not as smart as he thinks he is. And, Oh, the feelings, but is. And, oh, the feelings, but yeah, no, like, um,

I, they, there should have been more going on with, you know, um, I just, I feel like, I feel like the,

you know, the missteps and the mistakes that happened with the Lannister reign is not anything to do with incest. And it's not anything to do with them being inherently evil or different than anybody else it was just strategic and honestly I think like if the minds hadn't been running out they might have done it yeah money accomplishes a lot right and I mean that's I go back to that thing Lannisters are capitalism and if I think that also I think that um that Tywin invested in the wrong campaign PR because his was about fear me I will do what it takes to kill everybody I mean that the reigns of Castamere is that Lannister propaganda of like don't cross me because I will burn everything down and that only works so long

and you look at Ned's legacy in the face of Tywin's legacy and you see whose kids survive and why they survive and it's really obvious which is what's so interesting about the way that Jaime approaches this now that you know he's too cool Jaime too cool Lannister he could never admit like that he wants to help right that would be against his programming obviously listen Derry move yeah absolutely he would just be you know it's just against what he thinks but in this he starts thinking you know maybe I should send the girls back to Catelyn I should buy both them and send them back and he thinks it was not like to win him back his lost honor but the notion of keeping faith when they all expected betrayal amused him more than he could say.

I love it. Big troll energy. Big mood. Owning the legs. It relates so hard. Fucking edgelord. Teenage edgelord. Me, me.

Teenage edgelord like inside of me is like, yes, I feel it. Right? Right? I'm like, this is like again where i'm like god you're such a you're still fucking 17 oh god and the actual growth we do see is that later on when he gives brianne oath keeper he says this is his last chance for honor you know to send his not girlfriend to go do his work for him but i digress um jamie lannister's changed though uh whatever okay brienne will go get half her face clawed out how's that going for you jamie you beautiful fuck god it's just

bullshit right like why do we have to work the heart out it's such bullshit like jesus dude cleaning up men's messes sorry god you're totally right though about this progression in his character because him just spending time with her has opened him up to change and it reminds me of zootopia when nick in zootopia is consistently calling judy a cop and in the end he's fine like it turns out i admire you except in this scenario jamie is calling brianna cop and she's like yeah but you're a fucking cop like what the fuck's wrong with you you are a cop you're supposed to be a cop like where did you go wrong bitch oh it's so true and i love this i just re-watched it the other day i'm sorry but like every scene with them he's just like oh you're so good you're such a goody goody and she's like i just want to do good things and he's like oh you're so good oh that that's why you messaged me and was like oh jamie and brienne

are like zootopia i was like okay yep i was drinking but yeah no to circle back to the name thing and of like you know the trope of of two characters you know um either using you know first names or or they're only addressing somebody by their surname or title is is you know a way to draw a wall or a boundary between a relationship like we're keeping it professional or or whatnot and what i think it's interesting is you can actually mark exactly where Jamie and Brienne are individually at in their arc and especially their view of the other based on what they're internally thinking about that person's name and what name they're using out loud and and I think it's really interesting how soon Jamie wants her to say his name and how soon he's thinking of her as brianne

even though he might be saying when my name say my name big destiny's child energy when no one is around you say baby i love you oh somebody write that right pick right now. Sorry. It's you. It's got to be you. We got Jean over there on notepad just like scratching away. You have to write it. Yeah. It's yours now. We're giving you Oathkeeper.

Yeah, you have the Oathkeeper of fanfics. The next idea is domestic AU bills, bills, bills. Oh. You're welcome. So I do want to say the best part of this dynamic is kind of that with a lot of what you've been saying gene jamie has spent his entire life thinking he is cersei they are one they are the same person and for the first time in his life he doesn't know how to deal with the fact that brienne is more like him than cersei is he's never actually known this woman

and cersei in the end like it's no one to him when he finds out. He's never actually known this woman. And Cersei in the end, like, it's no one to him when he finds out that she's been betraying him. That's the ultimate betrayal to him. He's just like put her on this pedestal in his mind that she's this perfect being. When it turns out he meets Brienne and he loses his shit because Brienne is this person he has shut out for so long. This is the 15 yearyear-old Jaime who wanted to be a knight to protect Cersei before he loses her, like he lost Joanna, to lose what he thought was the only softness left in his life. Like, when he was young, he put so much of this identity into being a kingsguard and a knight, and those institutions failed him, like we see them failing Brienne and

Sansa and Catelyn, and knighthood in general as an institution has failed because it can't remain pure on the honor system alone due to that Lannister capitalism, due to this feudalism that has hoarded the resources that operate that. When knighthood smote him and when society smote him for being a knight, he put all he had left into this Lannister identity. And when Cersei betrays that, and then when Tyrion betrays that too, the very innocence that he swore and failed in many ways to protect, well, it shatters his Lannister identity as well.

He's left broken, trying to reform and refine himself in the Riverlands at the crossroads. And if Brienne hadn't been in these storm chapters, Jaime probably wouldn't be living. It's a really powerful dynamic and relationship whether it's consummated or not oh yeah absolutely are you saying jamie's a broken man what legitimate question are you saying that jamie's part of this broken man theme that's going on in the in the books yeah absolutely i yes i would absolutely say yes especially when we think about the fact that he is about to lose his hand, which is directly connected to his giant fucking phallic symbol. Yeah.

And he's a man that had to be broken to become his whole person. Because absolutely, as you point out, like he he isn't a full person. And there is a lot. Yes, we've been talking again and again. There is a rest of we've been talking again again there is a rested development happening with him and now that he's had to exist on his own and make choices on his own and now he's being backed into a corner to make some really fucked up choices um even when he like i like how often and this happens in one and two as well, where he will think he's going to do something,

like hit Brienne in the head with an oar, and instead he reaches it out to her. And he keeps thinking what he's going to do, and then he actually acts and does something that's instinctually good, as he will do here very shortly. I'm going to shut up now. Yeah. As they ride jamie hears a thrum though and he's like whoa i know that's on everyone duck he's like those motherfucking those crossbow men in this moment jamie could have just shut up and rode and let them get attacked but what is he his first instinct is to yell duck

to the other two people who he doesn't even like, supposedly. Okay, I'm sorry. I'll shut up. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah, no, no, no. Absolutely. And like, you know, he says it.

It's too late, though, because there's now an arrow in his horse's butt. Cleos also died, but the horse has an arrow in its butt i'm traumatized poor horse that's awful that poor one-eyed little shit it was wonderful i know god pour one out for that horse not for kleos fuck kleos but kleos the horse um you know what's funny is right around in just a couple chapters Brienne in this moment her horse has a bunch of arrows in her back and leg she's on her horse but

she has a bunch in her leg so she has a bunch of arrows stuck in her back and leg and you know who else gets arrows stuck in their back and leg in this book John oh that's right oh yeah i forgot yes wow i'm always bringing the hot facts yeah nice but she's still riding strong uh john did yeah just barely but she's riding proud and like a boss impressively stoically she's like whatever i'm gonna fight i'm gonna bring my sword out i'm like yeah that's me in video games not in real life definitely not absolutely not jamie's like

yeah yeah brianne cheering her on uh and he's also charging for some reason well he's charging as a distraction even though he's in chains and brianne's charging and she's yelling even fall and then tarth tarth and i love that she doing this. It reminds me of like that scene. It's actually a really like a terrifying scene, but where it's also wholesome because Arya is yelling Winterfell as she hits people and Hot Pie's yelling, Hot Pie, Hot Pie.

And I'm like, yeah, how's Hot Pie? That was the best. I'll be mad if we don't get more Hot Pie in the books, but I think we will. The bowmen break before her as they do before knights, and she stopped because they ran. And he's like, that's the best time to go. He goes on another tirade about the vices of bowmen. He's got feelings.

Yeah, he's like, oh, those cowards. I know. He's so mad all the time. It's great. And part of it is like, is he playing? I know. He's so mad all the time. It's great. And part of it is like, is he playing? It's like both foreshadowing, but also irony because of like Tyrion's closing chapter and you know, Jaime's final actions in this book, right? Which actually, again, it is a good thing that he does freeing his brother. He doesn't think about it too much. He's like, I will do this good thing for him.

Yeah. And so he tends, he offers to tend to Brienne's wounds. And she's like, I've seen this porn. Hoomps. Hoomps. They go find Cleos's body and Jaime loots it. He's like, whatever.

I have other cousins. And funnily enough, the other cousins are betraying him. So, ha ha ha. And Moonboy for all he knows. And he takes Cleos's sword and, you know,

decent drops, decent loot, some XP. Brienne refuses to let him have the sword, though. She's like, no, no, no, no, no. I know this is a rare drop for you right now, but absolutely not. They argue about, okay, then who's going to keep watch? Jaime's like, I will make an oath when I do.

And she's like, well, your oaths are worthless. You swore an oath to Ares. And Jaime then drops some hints about like but like aries was burning people and then he just loots kleos anyway seriously so many cousins they make you swear and swear jamie was tired tired of her suspicions tired of her insults tired of her crooked teeth and her broad spotty face and that limp thin hair of hers wait a second is this the 10 things i hate about you speech i love that i don't like your so much or your broad spotty face and your limp thin hair oh don't do that to me because that's that's that's

a very oh my god there's another that's a variation of a shakespearean sonnet that's all about how ugly the girls are. Is that the lairs? What is it? 38? No. It's the Dark Lady sonnet. You know, obviously joining the Kingsguard as the youngest Kingsguard. So, you know, I can't even imagine the kind of hazing that happens in the Kingsguard. and the kind of hazing that happens in the king's guard um but then post aries having to um kneel and beg robert to take him back and then you know having barriston the bold look on him and ned to

look at him like he's a piece of shit and hearing everybody whisper kingslayer behind his back and how how so much of all this is not just about Brienne but is is this building of rage of just being so tired and I like the fact that it's it is it is an action of anger but the fact that he's tired you know and that is a man that is about to reach rock bottom yeah and Cersei is like obviously the biggest instigator of that rock bottom. Yeah, and Cersei is like, obviously the biggest instigator of that rock bottom, right? Like that's the catalyst. That is what breaks the Campbell's back. And we were just talking about the Dark Lady sonnets from Shakespeare.

And in sonnet 147, he's talking about how his love for the Dark Lady has driven him mad, like to the point where he's feeling ill and how he doesn't understand how he ever thought she was beautiful and radiant and how her dark beauty, her evil nature now has changed those characteristics. Like now he thinks of hell and night when he sees her. And it starts out, so different, like in 127, yet so they mourn becoming of their woe that every tongue says beauty should look so, is very reminiscent of cersei and in sonnet 138 therefore i lie with her and she with me and in our faults by lies we flattered be

but bit by bit he starts to break away from this dark lady can we is is jamie supposed to also be in a way an embodiment of the fair youth sonnets? I think so, in a way. I don't know. A thought. A thought that just came from... A thought for another chapter, I guess. You just let it float there. Maybe for the bathhouse chapter

you should look into that. Maybe. Just saying. Just saying. For now, Jamie's grabbing the sword and he tries to hit Brienne. I left a pause there uh he's ready and she's already ready though for all this and she parries his blow and he's like oh okay

damn uh brianne tries to coax jamie into giving her the sword and he's like oh i will and then comes at her again boom boom boom boom boom sorry that's my sexual subtext drums. It's a coming. Oh, it's a coming. Because this is one of the most sexually charged scenes in all of the Song of Ice and Fire media books, all the extra stories, whatever. That's how I feel about this. I really just like the scene. I really just like the scene it gives me the same feeling as the sparring scene between Mako and Raleigh in Pacific Rim also one of the greatest sex scenes ever that is technically not a sex scene but it also technically is because del Toro says he filmed the scene to the way that one would

film a sex scene so much tension it's so so steamy so Yeah. This has more sexual tension than Brangelina in Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Then Zorro and Elena sparring. Then Batman returns Catwoman in Batman. This is raw, charged energy. This is like throw each other on the ground and lick each other's sweat off. What? Okay. I'm just giving the people what they want, Elena.

That's okay okay i was thinking of the hyena licking the pug again and i was traumatized oh spoilers lavelle sauvage spoilers um yes except everyone's already read it except you uh so true so so to make this point which i don't think i need to make the case for but regardless i will bring in choice lines from this fight scene, along with some summaries of the books, but here's that first quote. The swords kissed and sprang apart and

kissed again. Jamie's blood was singing. This was what he was meant for. He never felt so alive as when he was fighting, with death balanced on every stroke. And with my wrists chained together, the wench may even give me a contest for a time. Okay, stroke.

I know. Do you like how I emphasized certain words? That was beautiful. That was beautiful. But yeah, to reiterate the note I made earlier about how his identity, his individual identity is wrapped up in his sword and his fighting.

But really, you think about it, even sex has been defined for him by Cersei. So having this moment with another woman, when you think about it, it's incredibly fighting, especially when you have this whole theory about fighting and fucking and this idea that violence is just as intimate and act especially when it's one-on-one in this kind of combative um type of dynamic there is a kind of intimacy that's happening especially especially as we'll see as this progresses where all pretenses of you know that we would have in normal polite society and social behavior is set aside when we are up against somebody as an aggressive force. We, you know, either,

either be it sexually or physically violent, we are to some extent, you know, this is where often sex can, can turn into physical violence and can turn into violence is where we start to disregard performing for the other person and are performing for our own needs and our own pleasure. 100% Jamie. No Jamie informed by Cersei. No Jamie performing for other people. And that's part of where I see him feeling the way, being so into this as we're getting to see an aspect of him that is 100% solely him. Yeah, it's super violent.

And yeah, there's probably a lot of problems about crossing over sex and violence. But I do think that it is that there's a point, there's a nakedness to people when they are being violent that is, is parallel in when people are having sex. And so anyway, well, yeah. Well, yeah. And that's why there's obviously some of the really great and valid criticisms when it comes to like season eight, for example. It's a very intense idea. Very intense. It's just as intense as sucking someone's tongue out of their face. Yes. Well, and when you think about it, too, so often, you know, again, going back with those dynamics of what can be problematic in Jamie and Sarsi's sexual relationship is that so often how we conceptualize sex is a fight, is a duel for power and dominance. And so it's not that hard to imagine that if Jamie has looked at every transaction and relationship in his life as a fight for dominance that he usually gives up because he's a bottom, then, you know, then fighting is the purest version of his first language.

Jaime thinks the length of Cleos's sword, lewd, means that he can do this. Isn't it short? Shorter than what jamie's used to isn't it i'm trying to uh under i don't know what kind of compensation plans happening here jamie high low overhand he rained down steel upon her left right backslash swinging so hard that sparks flew when the swords came together upswing side flash overhand always attacking moving into her step and slide strike and step step and strike hacking slashing faster faster faster until breathless he stepped back and let the point of the sword fall to the ground giving her a moment of respite not half bad he acknowledged for a wench she took a slow deep breath and her eyes watching him warily

i would not hurt you kingslayer as if you could he whirled the blade back up above his head and flew at her again chains rattling Quick reactionary period there. It's like when you parry in the video games, I guess. I don't know. You get that split second where everything slows down and you get to strike back. Just had to firm things up, you know? Yeah. Jamie loses track of time, whether the fighting goes on for

hours or minutes, and then Brienne just keeps blocking his attacks as though he drives them anyway. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Sorry.

That's the, the, the drums of sexual subtext gets louder. Sorry. Sexual Jumanji. So here's an interesting parallel we could explore for a second. We earlier talked about how Rohan and Dunk were, uh,

an interesting kind of parallel and right here we get jamie pinning brienne up against an oak tree which we've talked in the last couple episodes about brienne's dunk connection uh and jamie of course has the rohan weber connection in that she is his great grandmother so keep that one on the dial but uh he pinned her against an oak cursed as she slipped away followed her through a shallow brook half choked with fallen leaves steel rang steel sang steel screamed and sparked and scraped and the woman started grunting like a sow at every crash yet somehow he could not reach her. Jesus Christ.

This book writes itself. It really does. Right? I don't even need a drum. I was like, I'm not. I could just put a little huskier voice on and we could sell this. You could do the grunting. Like a sow. Like a sow.

Oh, okay. like a sow oh okay oh I love that they say like the dance went on and like the earlier passage that we pulled was just sounded like dance steps sounded like square dancing on the left right backslide where'd you come from where'd you go where'd you come from

yeah that's what's happening here um Jean did you want to read this uh comment that you have here allowed to highlight it with the i would not hurt you kingslayer off to the side you know honestly that was just like a a soft shippy moment for me of that a soft core it was just that was straight pure 100 uh jamie brian shipping moment of that what you were looking for it was just that was straight pure 100 percent uh jamie brand shipping moment of that like she's like i would never hurt you and i'm like she really means that jamie of all the people including some of your family this chick's not gonna hurt you until the last book um but you know just just my feelings about the fact that she you know is going

as hard as she is in this fight but has no intention of hurting him and will get echoed later in her actually sticking up for him when other people try to hurt him yeah i'm just like afraid you know i've always like from the beginning been on that like Jamie Began like train ship, you know, but I'm just afraid I don't it's a song of ice and fire. I can't let myself like feel, you know, and they won't get a happy ending. Like that's I know. I'm just like too afraid to like, oh, no, everything.

Everything we love is going to die. I mean, I go in this way. I know this. Like, yeah, it's all good. Part of the pain but it's the it's the it's the salty and the sweet the bitter and the in the beautiful it's yeah you just gotta it's part of the the it's part of the appeal because i'm a terrible masochist but yes yeah well and it's part of the whole entire beauty and the beast trope you know i mean

as uh look i i know there's been a lot of uh a lot of chit chat and drama sometimes around my brienne and jamie takes the official stance is that look jamie has gotten better but most men tend to be trash it's not their fault jamie emulates that uh it reminds me of an ex that like i just remember he would never go buy his own toilet paper and would ask me to buy it and one day i got so mad because he was just sitting around playing GTA and he told me to get toilet paper. And I was just like, I gotta dump this guy. You know? And like, Jamie asks Brianne to go get the toilet paper all the time.

That's all. Oh my God. I'm just saying. He could go get it himself. Anyways, but I do love their dynamic. Like, obviously, you've heard me blather on this episode. I do love their dynamic like obviously you've heard me blather on this episode I do love their dynamic I just love Brienne more than I love Jamie is probably the problem I don't know I love that girl like I would protect her with my fucking life um but now that Jamie would protect

her with his life I feel better about him and her like I they can go on a date maybe out for an ice cream maybe out to die I don't know but i am i'm a multi-shipper so i can imagine everybody together so it for me is never really i mean i get the the um i want better for a character that i love i like seeing the interactions between people be they romantic or platonic anyway and um and i really like relationships that bring out different and new things i mean much in a similar way um i loved the scenes between tywin and aria in the show um of getting to see two characters that i would have never imagined being in a room together and the things that like what they showed about themselves while interacting with each other and that's the most

compelling part about this relationship is how much they both grow from knowing each other and ultimately are better people for it. Good people, great people, I don't know. That's somebody else to judge. But what for me is the idea and the fascination with wanting to see more of their interaction and all that. Yeah, anyway. And see what a badass, even more of their interaction and and all that yeah anyway and see what a badass even more of a badass Brianne becomes you know I mean no chance no choice

which someday we're gonna get to that is such a powerful scene like one of the most powerful scenes in all of a song of ice and fire that Jamie didn't he didn't harsh her mellow right like as much as his jaded ass wanted to in these chapters, he didn't. It reinforced her want to be good. And if you haven't heard it, I highly recommend listening to the song By Them Animals called Good. It's about Brienne of Tarth

and how she just wants to be good and she's the best. So check it out. It's on their album Seven. It's on Bandcamp for free and Spotify. Same as how when Sam was in john's chapters and that became the podcast about sam and not about john that's sometimes how i feel i'm like but what if i just talked about brienne here right because jamie is so impressed with brienne's skill

and he just tries to neg her for a second it's like for a squire uh then he asked her may i have this dance my lady and brianne takes up her hand here yeah yeah and jamie's like oh shit oh shit she's stronger than me he's like oh this is what i want i mean i excuse me um and then he lists in his head a bunch of people who were stronger than him one of them some of them are the cleganes one of them is robert baratheon that i do find that interesting because george has actually said that brianne may be of similar of height to robert him one of them some of them are the Cleganes one of them is Robert Baratheon that I do find that interesting because George has actually said that Brienne may be of similar of height to Robert when he was describing how tall she is like over six feet but not close to seven um it also reminds me some of the things that Lo said in the Twitter thread we referenced in Jamie too

Jamie's masculinity is tied up like in his skill with fighting but it's also tied up in his strength I do think of course Brienne has like metered some of her strength right it wasn't wasting it like Jamie else he's been sitting for a while whatever but also provides like context for why a lot of the other characters and we'll see this in Brienne's chapters more because this that's just how we're going to talk about this, like, they cut her down constantly for not conforming to those gender norms. And at its core, like, it's because Brienne is a threat to the assumptions that hold up this patriarchal order in Westeros.

She threatens the idea that men are just inherently stronger or better at fighting. You know, this idea that... And it's threatening to them because they're like oh shit a woman it's someone that they might not have power over that that i exerting power over someone else and because of that like when jamie realize it realizes it the language is saying that like it chills him yeah i mean first we let them have jobs and now they can have children and that's it now they want a seat at the table god they want a sword when will these

women stop when will they stop when will we stop chloe jamie is definitely chilled knowing brienne is stronger brienne's not wearing down jamie is and he falls and the point of his sword pierces her leg and we get this language and i think it's important language to bring up it's a little charged as we've mentioned his point scraped past her peri and hit and bit into her upper thigh a red flower blossomed and jamie had an instant to savor the sight of her blood before his knee slammed into a rock the pain was blinding i'm not saying this is implying him popping her cherry but they're in maiden pool like it is like oh and and i wanted to point out that she actually drew blood first penetrated him as it were, when she sliced him above his eye.

Just saying, for the record. So Brienne's pegging Jaime. Yeah, I was like, give us the Brienne and Jaime pegging story. Yeah, absolutely. In the Jaime and Brienne shipping fandom, it's a thing. I'm just saying. The fic is out there. Oh, I'm sure.

We have much to learn. We have much to learn. I hope our friends over at rbraimey keep teaching us things. Or Jamie and Brianna. Is that what it is? I don't remember. I hope they keep listening and teach us things because this is not our forte forte. Please DM us the pegging stories.

This is not a joke. This is dead serious. Just for research. We want to be really well educated. It's for science. For science. Share. not a joke this is just for research we want to be really well educated you know yeah for science share um yeah brianne tells him to yield once more jamie drove his shoulder into her legs bringing her down on top of him they rolled kicking and punching until she was finally sitting astride him well well well if it isn't jamie mcbottom pants i'm just so i am very sad that when i when i initially heard the casting for brienne i got for the show i was so

excited imagining that we were going to actually get live action sexy mud wrestling and we didn't get it and i'm fine with what we got but that is sexy mud wrestling just saying dude she's astride him again and the red flower it's all there it's all there he didn't even have to like tell people it it writes itself literally the whole books write themselves which explains why we don't have the next one yeah whatever automation has ended they wrestle in the water she threatens to drown him and jamie's like oh that would be heartbreaking jamie's like i have the best boner yes i mean don't hit me look at my other sword well then she lets jamie fall into the water and then laughter fills the woods

brianne lurched to her feet she was all mud and blood below the waist her clothing askew her face red she looks as if they caught us fucking instead of fighting jamie crawled over the rocks to shallow water wiping the blood from his eye with his chained hands. Armed men lined both sides of the brook. Small wonder we were making enough noise to wake a dragon. Well met, friends! He called to them amiably. My pardons if I disturbed you, you caught me

chastising my wife. I just want to point out that some of the sex that we do see with Jaime and Cersei is very much so coerced sometimes on his side to her she doesn't really want to fuck him we see the way she acts with other dudes too the same way it's not just him like this is just cersei um and the way she actually when she gives her uh herself to someone it's not really that willingly it's more of like

this is a chore. And with Jamie, there's a lot of weird moments that we do see with them where, you know, she doesn't even want to take her dress off. This is like an act of, like you've said, Jean, transactional. And so with this, like, he says it looks like we've been caught fucking, not

fighting, but when has he and Cersei ever been caught muddy and bloody fucking? he's never had sex like that in his life so this is like his real inhibitions coming out like that this is the sex he wants to be having this is jamie's kinks is what i'm saying oh yeah i mean if you think about too of like like you said like um the interactions we've seen with him and Cersei is definitely seems a lot more controlled, which is very much how it feels Cersei is in everything because everything went, especially in her interactions with men are calculated.

So it's not even me holding anything against her. I get it. I like her. But so imagining that, yeah, sure. They had hot sex or whatever, but did they ever have anything so raw and unrestrained as what he just had with Brienne? Right? Not in a long time, that's for sure. You get the dual level of that he's probably never fought with somebody who is this evenly or more matched you know a better fighter than him and at the same time it is probably the most he's ever interacted with a woman that's not his sister and so all of that happening together is you know yeah of course

he's gonna make that that connection between sex. And it's going to change, obviously, his interactions and how he views Brienne. Also, they were totally fucking... Sorry. And it's not just that. As you were saying, like, regarding his interactions with Cersei, part of it is, like, so much of it is secretive. And I think that's part of the big thrill for them, right? It's always in private. Whereas here, you know, they were caught.

They're out in the open. It reminds me almost of, like, the Dothraki, right? Like, they have sex out in the open, like they, they would be able to do that. And be loud. Yeah. It's, yeah, and public about it. And, and there's something very different about that. It's very free. And to think about how physically and and mentally this whole journey starting when he was in the dungeons has been him losing bit by bit his lannister identity to the point that he's in the mud in chains with a shaved head and with another woman and he

there is a freedom and not having to be janieannister. Here's a person, Rorge, the man lacking a nose. He's like, actually look the other way around. She was chastising you. And Jaime realizes, oh, these are not the outlaws who killed Cleos. These are the brave companions. And Jaime apparently knows

this because they don't look Westerosi. The language is really weird in the description and the characterization of the brave companions and how they act in this chapter i'll just say that they're kind of a weak supporting cast in this in my opinion they're just so othered yeah it's very cheap writing in my it's not i don't know uh a lot of people obviously like we we've got into a lot of it with some of the stuff with the dornish and the free folk and of course anything east really we're gonna get to when we someday get to danny because there's a lot to talk about

especially with the dothraki that george just doesn't i don't know it's a little it's a little flimsy that's all it's a little flimsy i mean it does feel like he kind of was like okay um i got some spare character descriptions laying around let me just kind of shuffle the papers and then there we go there we got them we got them before we meet the brave companions gene is gonna have to take off thank you so much for coming on then you can do a last closing how you feel about jamie and brianne i mean they are a great example of two characters that we would have never imagined them being stuck together. And but yet by bringing them together, we've learned they themselves and we learned so

much about them and that they changed so much. And that's we've talked a lot about the Beauty and the Beast dynamics with Jamie and Brienne. But I think what's more interesting or not more interesting, but less talked about is the potential for growth that they rep, they both represent that we do see in other characters. But we see it the most with these two. And the idea of that, this world is so, I mean,

I love it, but this world is so harsh, especially to good people that when we do get moments of honesty and trust and loyalty and love, be it romantic or not, but like just honest, emotional, like Jaime, Brienne, also Theon and Jane. We get these characters who just kind of are thrown together and we didn't even expect to see them. And they somehow through knowing each other and surviving something traumatic become different and better people and improve. And I think that's one of those aspects.

And we're seeing that this chapter is showing us the beginning of that journey for Jamie because really if Jamie had been the cold-hearted bastard that he thinks he is, he would still have his hand at the end of this chapter. Jean, thank you so much for joining us today on our Jamie 3, A Storm of Swords episode in A Song of Ice and Fire.

This has been a blast. Please tell us where we can find you on the internet. What's going on with you lately? Thank you so much for inviting me. I love the podcast and I love both of you. And this has been a huge ball of fun. You can find me at fangirljean.com. Also, you can always find me on Twitter under fangirljean.

And that, yeah, those are the two places to find me. Again, thanks for inviting me. Yes, thank you so much, Jean. I'm so excited that you were able to join us today. And, you know, you always have such great insights, and I'm so glad you were able to bring some of those here with us tonight. I had a revelation. Yeah. Jamie is Eleanor. And Brienne is Chidi. Think about it. Is that why I don't like Jamie? Because I'm Jamie? Is that what you're saying to me? I don't know. I know. It's more just like, you know, the idea of growth and the potential

of growth. It makes me think of a lot of the lessons that are in The Good Place, but also the cynicism that Eleanor brings is absolutely so Jamie. Yeah. That's it. Because he's afraid. Yeah. Huh. So anyways, Brienne tries to placate the brave companions

with money, and they're like, cool, we'll take that, and we'll rape you. And then they- Oh. I know, this is a terrible deal. They insult Brienne's looks as they discuss ways to assault her, and Jaime's like, whoa, this is not okay.

He asks, who is the commander here? And it's Ersvik, quote unquote, the faithful. And Jaime's like, okay, okay. So all of you know who I am, right? You know I pay my debts. I got a great credit score. Brienne here is also highborn. She's worth money.

And in between all this, Jaime thinks about how Tywin calls Gregregor and amory lorch their dogs like all of them all the people under him he calls his like hired dogs more or less and then i had a moment here i was just like oh okay i get it now now i suddenly understand why joffrey just keeps calling sandor like his dog yeah part of it is because his nickname's the hound but apparently I guess he just learned this from his grandfather yeah he kind of copies Tywin's moves and it also reminded me of his dark materials how servants have dogs as their demons by the way now that you say that I was like oh I know I think about that constantly and I'm like damn all right so fucked up so Jamie continues to distrust these guys. He's like, where's Vargo Hote if you guys are the brave companions?

And apparently Vargo is a few hours away. And they're like, also, don't call him goat to his face. So Jamie learns that Vargo is now a lord, a lord of Harrenhal. What? Harrenhal? Chica, what? As Jamie asks to get his fetters removed he starts to think that something is wrong first off the bloody mummers are serving lord bolton and rob not tywin he makes a snarky

comment about honor and gets punched in the stomach this time it's brienne who pipes up and says he's not supposed to be harmed as part of a hostage exchange. She tries to get her sword from the bottom of the water where they are, and it takes four of the men to take her down, but they eventually do, and they knock out two of her teeth, which I really don't like at all. Brienne. Brienne. You know, Brienne picking her sword out of the water

kind of reminded me of a perverse like twisted lady of the lake thing here yeah um and maybe not so much here but you know the lady of the lake in mythos she's an enchantress like an irish french arthurian english arthurian tons of different variants in pop culture generally the tales of king arthur She lived in a castle beneath the lake surrounding Avalon. She raised Lancelot and gave Arthur a magical sword, Excalibur, which he treasured. When Arthur was near death, she saved him by taking him to Avalon. And Brienne picking up her sword here made me think of that. But her as Lady of the Lake step in is interesting with Jaime.

She kind of plays this maternal role, this whole journey to Harrenhal. And we'll obviously bring this up again when we talk about Jaime's dream of his mother. Interesting with Jaime, she kind of plays this maternal role, this whole journey to Harrenhal, and we'll obviously bring this up again when we talk about Jaime's dream of his mother, but Brienne gets Jaime safely-ish to Harrenhal and eventually will in reverse receive a magic sword. I think that magic sword might be the ticket here, but Joanna in the water in the dream, sadly surveying him, is completely Lady of the Lake vibes, and Brienne in the dream sadly surveying him is completely lady of the lake vibes and brienne in the bathhouse and soon with the bloody mummers and taking care of him then kind of takes on that role it's very much so a born again rebirth like we said earlier with gene uh brienne birth jamie that's what i'm saying here what yeah i mean there's that there's the over christian overtones

of the baptism thing going on. And I think I've never thought about until this chapter and this discussion, how much water is so significant to both of their storylines. I mean, a lot of it takes place, of course, within the Riverlands. And I think it's interesting considering all the ways you've drawn the Lady of the Lake into this because we discussed how lancelot right uh plays a big role in how jamie's story seems to have been informed and the lady of the lake was lancelot's basically foster mother and brienne is definitely his mommy in these chapters sometimes sometimes she's putting that out there you know yeah well you know yep yep yeah jamie pities brianne during all this he's certain she's

going to be raped this evening probably by roge the men are now stripping kleos's body anything that jamie didn't take already divvying his possessions up and roge has stolen the surcoat that kleos wore the lannister and freight quartering as his prize jamie jamie didn't do the whole thing yeah absolutely he just wants the coat you gotta press x gotta keep pressing x jamie god jamie well he didn't want all that and he obviously who the fuck would want a sir coat that has a freight towers on it true he could cut it out. Come on now. Jamie notes that the arrows have punched holes in this surcoat and have punched out the lion

and the twins on the surcoat. Just to note, Jean said this was also foreshadowing. Jamie whispers to Brienne that, well, I hope she's happy that she didn't arm him now and thinks that she is a pig stubborn bitch, but brave. She doesn't respond to him this time, but that doesn't turn him off from continuing.

He tells her, don't resist them or you'll lose more teeth. Coming back to Brienne's strength, you know, as a threat to that patriarchal order i i do think it's interesting that we get this scene here that's juxtaposed within the very same chapter as brienne as seeing her as such a holding her own very well against one of the best fighters in the series and that jamie thinks of her in the same context when it comes to strength of many of the best fighters in all of a song of ice and fire who are known for that strength like brienne could probably take any of these brave companions on like one-on-one i think as a group obviously she can't like any most people can't that's just how groups work obviously like

jamie sees and experiences at the end of this chapter like the brave companions are horrific and depraved to literally anyone they would like they would threaten this rape to any woman probably but i do think it's really significant like on a narrative structural sense like in one moment brianne defies a lot of those gender norms yet the threat of sexual violence suddenly hangs over her head again here and that the brave companions won't stop about it it's their way of trying to reassert that patriarchal order over brienne by trying to remind her and like quote unquote put her in her place as a woman because she's a threat to that order and their power in it and i i'm not trying to uh contrarian you here be contrarian at all I don't that's not the word

I'm not trying to be a contrarian here at all but it is interesting I do note that Jamie does this with Tommen as well um later on he tells him to go away inside so this is a lot of how uh how Jamie just like operates too like that he his immediate response is just listen if you just go away inside it'll fix all of it it'll all be fine that's what i've been doing and i'm great oh yeah and that's not at all that's the literally the advice he gives a brienne to try and deal with this um and and it comes back to all those things that you and gene were saying earlier like of he just turns to those memories of cersei when things are rough like when he's going away inside in all likelihood that's what he's doing he's going away inside and reliving

those moments with cersei and replaying romanticizing what they had yeah yeah it turns out it's a very very toxic romanticization uh it turns out that neither of them are really still in love quote unquote with the other yeah um brienne then asks jamie okay well what would you do in this moment if you're a woman and jamie's like well if i were a woman he says he thinks this, if I were a woman, he says, he thinks this internally. If I were a woman, I'd be Cersei. But then he tells her instead, I'd make them kill me instead or first if I were one. Yeah, I'm sure you would, Jaime. I'm sure were the roles reversed, that is exactly what would happen.

And again, this is something that he doesn't really have to worry about. He's never really been captive in this manner where it was a serious danger. So Jamie's never really had to worry about that. He's usually had safety for the most part, besides when he fought like a few different things with the Kingsguard and with the Kingswood Brotherhood or against the Kingswood. Jamie calls it right with how Cersei would react because we do see at the end of a clash of kings right when the threat of sexual violence is hanging over the head of cersei and everyone who's in the room during the black water cersei reveals to sanza you know what illenpain's actually here because instead of us being raped if an army comes in here she's like i'm gonna have ill and pain kill all of us

that's her plan that's to keep her dignity and her respect as a woman yeah then she she's like this is me having a choice but she doesn't offer any of the other women i guess or sansa that same choice but whatever jamie beckons urswick back to them he attempts to buy him off with gold and he even says that brienne comes from tarth where there are many many sapphires uh but yourswick sees through this he's like do i look like a oath breaker to you kingslayer and of course we know the answer there do i look like a turn cloak to you um is this an answer people want yes the answer is yes urswick considers a trade he's like king's landing is far off though and tywin actually you know he's like i don't think your dad's gonna be too happy about lord bolton getting

the heron hall from the mummers and jamie's like sorry threw me so he tries to sweeten the pot but like but what about if i also threw in a royal pardon and the knighthood urswick's like hmm i could be a sir that'd make my wife proud my wife would be so proud of me but i murdered her isn't he a nice guy i would want to go on a date with urswick like what a strong nice urswick jamie uh jamie and him go on he asks what will happen to the brave lord vargo haute if urswick accepts this deal and jamie says well you know the song the rains of castamere which is you know the equivalent to i don't think my father, the inventor of toaster strudels, would appreciate this. Erswick asks if Tywin has super long arms to pull them out of Harrenhal.

And Jaime's like, technically kind of. Like, it's not like Harrenhal hasn't ever fallen. And he says that the goat cannot outfight the lion. And Erswick slaps him lazily across the face. I have heard enough, Kingslayer. I would have to be a great fool indeed to believe the promises of an oathbreaker like you. He kicked his horse and galloped smartly ahead. Ares, Jaime thought resentfully, it always turns on Ares.

He swayed with the motion of his horse, wishing for a sword. Two swords would be even better. One for the wench and one for me. We'd die, but we'd take half of them down to hell with us. Brienne's not going to hell. Don't be rude. Two swords was the title of

episode 4, X1, season 4, episode 1 of Game of Thrones where Jaime, where the swords were created, Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, out of Ned's sword. And I love the quote where he actually gives Oathkeeper to Brienne. Rubies glimmered in the light. She picked the treasure up gingerly, curled her fingers around the leather grip,

and slowly slid the sword free of its scabbard. Blood and black, the ripples shown a finger of reflected light ran red along the edge is this valerian steel i have never seen such colors that's a good that's a good catch i forgot that that's the title of that episode two swords two swords it reminds me of two james i don't know yeah it there's same energy absolutely um the idea that yeah we're gonna just like go down and take them all with us like it's such a jamie thought i mean again this is basically his plan in the whispering wood he's like as long as I can take Rob down, even if I go down, it's all worth it. And I think it's just so indicative of Jaime's nihilist worldview.

Like this is, he's not like a forward thinker. You were all discussing it earlier. He doesn't really like make long-term decisions insofar as like, I just got to get back to Cersei. And he doesn't really care that much if he dies here so long as he's like good at fighting to an extent. And it's the only care that much if he dies here, so long as he's like, good at fighting to an extent. And it's the only identity, as you've all said, like that he's had this whole time. So it's significant that like, when later on in the story, he does start thinking about like,

huh, but what about my future? What if I planned for that every now and then? There was this line in the show that he says, you know, I'm a slow learner. Are you being sarcastic? No, I mean, that is he says that in the show as well. There's a line where he says you know i'm a slow learner are you being sarcastic no i mean that is he says that in the show as well there's a line where he says i'm a slow learner sansa also says actually that's why i thought you're being sarcastic no absolutely not uh great parallels for their characters but he says that and it's very bitter when he says it so i really thought that was interesting they include that in the show they put it in there when uh it is indicative of his character right like he has been stunted since 17 he is this boy that can't fix his family yeah and I mean it's that like he's he went through a lot of traumatic

things and also at the same time no one's let him grow past that worst mistake but also the best thing he's ever done and because of that you know like his whole life as a landowner he's never really had to think about all right what do i do with my future no one's gonna like care uh he's thought of it like all of twice before he was just coasting he was just like i'm doing great i got sweet internship with lord sumner craig hall i wanted a better one right with raygar but. And he still got promoted, right? Becoming a Kingsguard. Almost all of it kind of fell into his lap,

but not really, because his next big decision was like, do I switch jobs? Do I take the job with the Kingsguard? And then the next big decision he ever has to make is with Ares, and he's like, should I kill my new boss? I know I've only been here a year, but that's okay on my resume, right?

Real life decisions, like, they scare him. Battlefield ones don't. Once Yerswick has trotted off, Brienne asks Jaime why he mentioned Hearth's non-existent sapphires, and Jaime implies she better hope they exist, or she'll be subject to rape even faster every man here will mount you but what do you care just close your eyes open your legs pretend they're all lord renly ouch excuse me yeah she's like okay um they finally get to vargo hote at the

day's end and they find him. He's here. He's been chilling, sacking a sept with the other brave companions, normal things. The gods have been dragged out in the front yard, kind of reminiscent of some Stannis stuff here. They've hanged a septum that they're using for archery practice on a chestnut tree.

Vargo Hote is eating, very subtle, Vargo Hote is eating a half cooked bird on a chestnut tree. Vargo Hote is eating, very subtle, Vargo Hote is eating a half-cooked bird on a skewer, grease and blood flowing down his hands and beard. He wipes them off on his tunic and rises to meet his guests. Yeah, everyone in this story eats poorly and terribly for some reason.

He calls Jamie his captive, and then Brienne tries to give her spiel about Lady Cat, and then he's like, silence her. And he's like silence her and he's like I don't give a shit and she's like okay okay I'm gonna try it again this time in the name of Vargo Hoth's king maybe he'll listen to me and like Rourke's just like no I'm gonna drag her off the horse and begins kicking her and you know interesting here because that's uh again a nod

that should have made us go huh why does king rob's name mean nothing to him well of course the goat has no honor we know that however also his king's name that he now supposedly serves rob uh for lord bolton no longer sparks his interest hmm it's It's like, I don't serve any four-legged creatures that aren't goats. No bulls, just goats. Urswick tells Rorge to be careful

because Brienne's worth her weight in sapphires. Do you ever think, like, what would this story be like if it came out during the time when goat, you know, greatest of all times was, like, a thing in slang? Anyways um it reminds me brienne doing all this kind of reminds me of sansa because brienne appealing to both lady catlin and rob stark as authorities like i mean obviously brienne doesn't believe in all

the songs she's been too disillusioned by the way that the world has treated her to do that she knows it doesn't always work out that way she holds on to the ideas of what knighthood should be and she appeals to hotz allegiances i think to the starks because i think she still believes that those oaths are worth something to everyone that isn't jamie it's why she's always poking him about it and then she gets cruelly and unjustly punished and beaten for thinking that this world order like that there is that order and similar to how sansa right is beaten by the knights and the king's guard for believing that hey maybe someone still holds to any sort of values

yeah um that innocent till proven guilty kind of thing. Doesn't really work here. Yeah. So two of the men, Timon and I think it's Tagjath, take Jaime from his horse and shove him in toward the fire. He thinks about grabbing one of their swords while they do this, but he's still in fetters and he'd die if they did so. Jaime was not ready to die yet, and certainly not for the likes of Brienne of Tarth. Except, ha ha. Interesting.

What if? And but? Vargo proclaims that it is a sweet day. Jaime notes a necklace around his neck. It's coins of every shape. King, wizard, wizard god demon alike different sizes hammered and cast coins from every land where he has fought uh i don't know like so vargo hoats into like collecting get a fucking binder something i thought of early when earlier when you and jean were talking about lannister gold is that with Vargo's

necklace, as we learn here, Jaime's gold isn't good here. All this gold that Vargo accepts and uses or has taken, but Jaime's gold isn't good here. Yeah, it's interesting in the context of what

she's saying about, like, oh, their capitalism. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's a great point. you're saying about, like, oh, their capitalism. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's a great point. How could I make other people work for me? Yeah, and... Well, Vargo Hote won't. Yeah, and he gets it so wrong because, like, he's thinking that, oh, yeah, greed is totes the key to Vargo Hote. He begins to offer him things. He's like, Lord Vargo, you were foolish to leave my father's service, but it is not too late to make amends.

You'll pay well for me, you know it. Oh, yes, said Vargo Holt. Half the gold and Catholic luck I shall have, but first I must send them a message. You're welcome. Thank you. I took one for the team there. I i was like what does she want to happen

um you know again this is the moment where jamie should have realized like oh it turns out like he is in my father's employ like i'm a dumb bitch like he like jamie doesn't think this he doesn't realize it but we do like maybe maybe he's not technically not in tywin's employ yeah there's a lot of 4d chess going on here yeah play every but every battle in your mind oh my god leave me alone urswick puts him on his back a jester in motley then kicks jamie's legs out from under him and one of the archersers uses Jamie's chains to keep his arms out in front of him. Zolo puts his knife down and brings out his rock. It's sharp and scythe-like.

Fuck. I'm gonna try that again. It's sharp and scythe-like. The goat wants me to piss my breeches and beg his mercy, but he'll never have that pleasure. He was a Lannister of Casterly Rock, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. No sellsword would make him scream. Sunlight ran silver along the edge of the Arrak as it came shivering down, almost too fast to see, and Jaimeie screamed a couple of thoughts with this last passage oh reminds me of quentin i see you george i know what you like to do with body horror george

loves his body horror and ending chapters with people screaming uh he does the same thing when we get to kyburn eventually you know with jam's hand, with the screaming and passing out. I love that he has, like, some characters, he does the fake-outs with horror happening to him. But it also, this chapter, very much so has that Lannister pride, right? Like, the pride of the rock, and hair grows back. I'm a lioness of the rock. They're taking strength in their home from the Casterly Rock, much like the Starks do with Winterfell here.

home uh from the cast of the rock much like the starks do with winterfell here yeah it's hard because their home kind of sucked to them um and and regarding how the chapter closes george writes it the same way right like by just sort of intimating what happens he doesn't say and this is what happened he there's like the before and then suddenly someone screaming or whatever and you your mind just fills in the gap of what happens and i kind of i i obviously we know why the story and the narrative itself right calls for jamie's hand to be cut off and y'all kind of touched on this a little bit before and i i just like don't understand though like vargo hort was vargo ho like what was your long-term strategy with all this like did did you really think that this was gonna work out for you like how did you think that this

was really gonna go well for you honestly i really think george just needed someone to do this for his plot to continue because I really do think like the companions are not really well etched out I mean they just you know like then they die because of Gregor and other people and it's over and they're dead and like that's fine too and I mean like obviously there's a because the audience grows so sympathetic for jamie's chapters and the way that george writes them like you end up being like oh yeah that that's rad that's gnarly right when vargo haute gets pieces of his body cut off and fed to him and i know that's horrible and terrible but like i mean like that's just how it's written and played out. But just like, not on the meta level, not on the meta level. I'm just like, Fargo Hote, what were you thinking?

Why did you do this? This is so dumb. Anyway. Yeah, it wasn't smart. But maybe he's not playing 4D chess. No, you're right. He's not. He's only on 3D chess, not 4D.

He's playing 1d chess dude he's playing like minesweeper at most oh my god each game minesweeper's hard okay um it's not that hard i'm i'm just a dingus uh another question do you think that like had jamie screamed when they were threatening him maybe his hand would not have been cut off you know obviously obviously like not within the parameters of like the narrative needed Jamie to do this for his because it was part of the character development thing like but being in the moment

like the advice that he gave Brienne to just like acquiesce just give them what they want it's the same thing that Sandor tells Sansa like had Jamie screamed would they have cut his hand off? A question. Hmm.

Yeah, that's interesting, because the very thing he told Brienne, like, no, absolutely not. But it's what he told Brienne. And I think it really ties into that idea of his masculinity we keep talking about on how you know his sword hand is everything uh and for jamie brienne getting raped he doesn't understand what that's like he doesn't understand what that means that he's telling her to become a shell of a being just to get through uh someone using her and against her will like he's underestimating what that does to a person but also at the same time estimating that you can just go away inside during that when several men are brutalizing you like he's just so flippantly regarding it and then his very masculinity is torn from him it's

ripped from him the only thing he, the only thing that has kept him sane through all of the crazy bullshit, through Cersei, through Robert Baratheon, through Aerys, through all of this, has been his sword, his sword hand. It's the only thing he's good at. And for him, suddenly the moment that's taken from him, like, that is scream-worthy. So I think for Jaimeie like equating like for brienne to go away inside while she's brutalized and how easy that is and then for him to get his masculinity ripped from him instead of her getting her femininity brutalized that's something that's very interesting it's an interesting play that george is definitely

trying to contrast yeah yeah and i. And I think that's like, that's a great analysis of what's going on there. And a great place to end the episode. Who knew I was a Jamie Stan? I think I knew that you could be one deep down inside. I'll never tell. I know. I know. Everyone thought we were going to clash so hard, but here i am just like but chloe but what if i'm actually really reasonable

it's just i just have some strong opinions that's all i just think he's one of the best written characters in oh and he's entirely complex like he's a great character yeah i just don't always agree with his actions which is fine you don't have to do that with characters because they're just characters yeah i don't agree with like real people i don't agree with like all the characters that's the point you're not supposed to because they're supposed to like be complex the best ones are yeah absolutely well you can catch us uh with some complex characters maybe not eliana eliana's gonna be gone oh that's right that's part of it see this is me this is me doing things that maybe the audience doesn't want i'm complex see uh maybe

eliana's not your favorite character but she's definitely complex so eliana will be gone for just a little bit she's taking a little detour trip away from the podcast we'll give her some time off we'll allow it she has some pto saved up uh so while eliana is out of town i will be doing a patreon episode with faye from her dark materials and amy and ian from the dark material podcast really excited about that we'll be covering philip pullman's the secret commonwealth the second book of dust talking about some general thoughts on that and our initial reactions while we wait for eliana to come back to discuss labelle sausage i mean savage the the person who tried to paint an s over the v i was like me i feel that um yes and okay, I'm gonna be real. It is my fault for not having been caught up on the

books. But I am kind of jealous. I'm like, I want to hang out with Faye and Ian and Amy. They're so cool. Well, you know what you have to do in order to do that. So not go on this trip. Not go on this trip. Well, another thing we'll be missing out on is Jamie 4. Jamie 4 will not be up on March 6th. We will put the Secret Commonwealth episode out for the public. Our patrons are sharing this month, and we are so grateful for that. Thank you to our patrons over at patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon. Jamie 4 will come out on the 13th of March,

and that is also when we will be announcing our giveaway winner for our Ice and FireCon Girls Gone Canon weekend extravaganza. So stay tuned, more for that. Wish Eliana some safe travels. Yes, and keep up with whenever those episodes come out, right? Like, I know it sounds like a slightly crazy schedule, but if you follow us on social media, you'll know when those all come out. Find us girls gone canon c-a-n-o-n over on twitter and hey maybe you have some thoughts on this episode or things to expand on you can find us at girlsgonecanon at gmail.com or maybe you want to send us cat pics or other animals i'm we the animal pictures, so please send us your pets. As well as our social media,

you can find us on our podcast platforms. We are hosted on Podbean. You can also check in on our RSS feed on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify, and Acast and Stitcher. Yes. And thank you so much for tuning in this week, you guys. Thank you so much to fangirl Jean for joining us this week. This was a treat. I was so excited

to have Jean on and I just thought that she was just gonna be a great guest. And I think she really nailed it with a lot of the in-depth and different lenses, right, of looking at Jamie's character. And, you know, someone send us those pegging fanfics. Yes, please send us the pegging fanfics. Yeah, that's girlsgonecanon at gmail.com. As always, you guys, I've been Chloe, one of your hosts. And I've been Eliana, another one of your hosts.

Are you even gonna miss us? Are you including this? I'm about to stop the recording and Chloe just slips that in. Of course I'm gonna miss you. I said what I said. Of course I'm gonna miss you. You guys, goodbye.

Goodbye.