Girls Gone Canon Cast - His Dark Materials Episode 11 - The Subtle Knife Chapters 5-6

Episode Date: March 27, 2020

This episode, everyone is learning: Lyra learns about burgers. Will learns about his dad. Lee learns about Grumman, and Serafina and Ruta Skadi learn about the spectres.   Chapter 5 - Airmail Paper Chapter 6 - Lighted Fliers   --- Eliana's twitter: https://twitter.com/arhythmetric Eliana's reddit account: https://www.reddit.com/user/glass_table_girl Eliana's blog: https://themanyfacedblog.wordpress.com/ Chloe's twitter: https://twitter.com/liesandarbor Chloe's blog: www.liesandarborgold.com Intro: Waltz Of The Skeleton Keys by WombatNoisesAudio | https://soundcloud.com/user-734462061 1 Like

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Girls Gone Canon. Here's Dark Materials, Episode 11, The Subtle Knife, Chapters 5 and 6, which are airmail paper and lighted flyers. I am one of your hosts, Eliana. You might know me as GlassTableGirl on Reddit, or maybe as Arithmetic on Twitter. And I am another one of your hosts, Chloe. You might know me as LiesInArbor on the internet, Twitter, Tumblr, LiesInArborGold.com. And I feel like this should be three chapters.

I want to say that up top. You told me that ahead of time, and then I looked and I was like, this is dumb. This should have been three chapters. This should have been four chapters. Holy crap. Actually, holy crap you're right lighted flyers is like lee goes on 80 journeys and then you get to the witches and they go on like 40 journeys but still a lot yeah 80 to 40 i guess the bigger problem is we have a journey after chapter six because we go into our discussion.

So the journey is never ending for us, Eliana. It's never ending. Our book spoilers after section will be at the very end. Stay tuned. If you don't want to know what happens in the rest of the books in the Amber Spyglass, then tune out then. Yes, because the way that we have set up our episodes is, for those of you who are reading this series the first time, which are quite a few of you,

we go over things going on in these chapters, some of our thoughts up top. Then we have a discussion, as Chloe said, that covers material from all three of the books, the rest of what happens in The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass. Then there are times when we'll have a dusty discussion where you know i have finally finished reading labelle sauvage i have not yet gotten to the secret commonwealth sorry everyone i will be working

on that you know we maybe this is the time maybe you know i think deadlines work for me if we want to pick a date how about by the time we are out of this global pandemic and crisis you will have read the secret commonwealth that is my deadline like by december you mean like by 10 years from now i was like my god how optimistic are we being chloe how about you finishing a book not so optimistic Eliana that's optimistic you don't have the best track record you do finish them but yeah but

anyway so let's pick something a little more concrete who knows how long we're going to be in here lockdown quarantine suffering honestly my life is completely unchanged besides i don't have to go to the factory i was like i don't know this is as time goes on people are

like oh i miss the outdoors i'm like do i i don't know about that is this my natural state is this who i'm meant to be i'm pretty productive i there's like a whole hour i'm not driving and that hour is like i make coffee i start my work earlier i get shit done i don't know i'm just saying i'm just saying work from home for me works i know it doesn't work for everybody obviously a lot of service workers people that are on the front line are uh really really doing their duty man and i don't miss retail right now at all i know we have a friend micah who does retail and i don't miss it horror stories we'll pick a date at some point though to finish the secret commonwealth but

anyway that gets covered in the dusty discussion but you but we're going to play it by ear, see what we got this episode. Yeah, and last month, if you guys are into our Patreon or on our public feed, you might have heard our secret Commonwealth discussion that we did. Eliana was not with us for that, obviously, since she's not quite caught up yet. But we did have Faye from Her Dark Materials and Amy and Ian from Dark Material Podcast. They came on and we talked everything about the second Book of Dust. Really fun. And this month, you guys, we're not sure if you're following us over at patreon.com slash girlsgodcanon.

You'll get some updates on Patreon episodes like this. This month we are doing a Song of Ice and Fire Patreon, but with everything happening right now with the global pandemic, I know it's kind of crazy, and we want you to know if you guys can't afford to be a patron, that is absolutely fine. We are so comforted by your listening to us, your hanging out with us, your awesome emails, your chatter. That is what we like, and we are excited to keep bringing you content while we have

hopefully a little downtime in the future. Yeah, absolutely. So please do not feel obligated. We appreciate it, and again, like Chloe said, the kind words and support that we get from people is pretty great and awesome, and

I don't know, it makes you feel worth it makes you feel appreciated we do have a couple of emails tweets of note that we are going to get to again at some point but yeah we're gonna keep this episode since it should be three chapters philip um yeah whatever i'm mad i'm just like philip the only mail we got this episode is mail from John Perry. Yes. You just got a letter. You just got a letter.

You got mail. That was a poem from the, what, the 90s? Blue's Clues? Here's the mail. It never fails. It makes you want to wag my tail. When it comes, I want to wail mail. Air mail paper.

Chapter five. Airmail paper! Chapter 5. Airmail paper. Lyra surprises Will. She's sitting on the bench next to him and tells him about Mary Malone. He was deep in thought on the bench while two police officers

were shredding toward them, which pulls him out of his thought. Yikes. Yeah. Lyra bounces to her feet and she asks them, like, can they direct her to the museum because she and her brother were supposed to meet their parents and they're lost and they'll shrugs like, as if to agree.

It's kind of like a pretty shitty move on Lyra's part because she's trying to make a point here. It kind of works because, like, the female officer's like, oh, okay, which museum on Lyra's part because she's trying to make a point here it kind of works because like the female officer is like okay which museum Lyra uh tells her and they sort out the directions then they quote unquote leave to the museum and the officers like lose interest and Lyra's all like see I was right I saved us and Will's like pretty furious because he's like stop attracting attention to us

yeah they're really passionately arguing about it married already in super subdued married teenagers this is great arguing about it in subdued voices he's like why did you do this she's like i'm the best liar ever he's like you're putting us into danger, Lyra. And she thinks no one should speak to her like this. She was an aristocrat. She was Lyra. So Lyra's really falling back here on that Asriel heritage, right? In the beginning of this, I feel like between this and Pan later in the chapter turning into a leopard, she consistently uses that Asriel's daughter fallback for her identity because she's just so lost in this book right she's trying to understand who the fuck she is after roger's death

and after will arrived but also check your privilege lyra like you're basically an orphan too settle down yeah absolutely and she's just it's so funny but j jarring. At the same time, this line where she's like, she was an aristocrat. She was Lyra. It's like, okay, chill out. And like... I guess I was that dramatic. I mean, but at the same time, like, she thinks she knows how everything's supposed to work in this world. Right?

And she's very sure right now of what she thinks things are supposed to be like and it's like Lyra maybe you need to sit back when it comes to what you think is right because as you're going to remind us in a moment you literally got your best friend killed um not literally it wasn't really

her fault you know like it was Asriel's fault I'm exaggerating but anyways will's like whatever i've got my own thing to do and i'm trying to help her instead and lyra's like no you did it for yourself you did it to find out about your father not for me and then will's like whoa how do you know about that and she's like i asked the alethiometer about him and then she shows him and then he's like all right fine, fine, fine, fine, stop, stop, stop. I don't like this.

It gives me the heebie-jeebies. He doesn't say it, but you can tell that's what he's thinking. When she's all like, oh, I know that your mom's sick. Oh, she's also safe. He took these letters and ran, and he murdered a thief, and he's looking for his father, and he was like, shut up. Never look at my browser history ever again. Control shift delete.

No. Yeah. Wait, no, no, no. Control. I do command shift N. It's all about incognito. I can't believe you just outed yourself as a Mac user. I know when to stop asking, she said.

See, the alethiometer is like a person almost i sort of know when it's going to be cross or when there's things it doesn't want me to know i kind of feel it but when you come out of nowhere yesterday i had to ask it who you were or i might not have been safe i had to and it said she lowered her voice even more it said he was a murderer and i thought good that's all right he's someone i can trust but i didn't ask more than that till just now and if you don't want me to ask anymore i promise i won't this ain't like a private peep show if i'd done nothing but spy on people it'd stop working i know that as well as i know my own oxford Thank you, Academy Award. Truly, I like how

Will doesn't ask her, like, wait, hold on. I told you I was a murderer. No questions. Glossed over. Yeah, you're like, chill. Amazing. Love it. Alright. And I like how Lyra's all like,

private peep show. Right, like she knows what that means. Okay, Lyra. You're right. She probably doesn't know what that means. She probably thinks of what she did at Jordan College at the start of the Golden Compass was a private peep show. I mean, well, okay, technically, but.

She thinks that's what that was will ask uh lyra if she knew whether his father was dead or alive and she's like i didn't ask that so then they said awkwardly at this point yeah that's like the one thing she did not think to ask you he's like oh so you know i'm a murderer but you don't know about my fucking dad and whether he's alive or not like the alethiometer did volunteer that yeah and lyra was like doesn't seem important at the time yeah murderer all i needed to know check yeah will says they are just going to have to trust each other at this point and lyra repeats her trust for him uh there's this great line it actually reminds me of season one of his dark materials the bbc

hbo tv show production where lyra wasn't usually so perceptive but something in this manner made her think he's afraid but he's mastering his fear like yorick bernison said we had to do like i did by the fish house at the frozen lake and I just love that memory of that moment I like how they captured it visually in the show and I think it's a great thought here that she always does seem to relate Yorick to Will and you and I have made jokes about you know the the fur-filled tendencies of that feeling of like oh Lyra's in love with Yorick Burnison but I mean it's a very strong companion. She's never had a real father figure. Someone that was like a real dad and

Yorick's kind of like that in a way. So's Lee. So's Serafina. They're all her dad. Yeah. Look at her. And she has her biological dad who kind of sucks. Yeah we don't have to talk about him. We don't. Then we have this line of Lyra saying

and Will she added I won't give you away not to anyone I promise good I'd done that before I betrayed someone and it was the worst thing I ever did I thought I was saving his life actually only I was taking him to the most dangerous place there could be I hated

myself for that for being so stupid so I'll try very hard not to be careless or forget and betray you. Aww. I'll try very hard not to be careless or forget or betray you. I'm sad. I love them. I love these kids. They're just real

pure, man. They're good kids. They can't pass through the window in broad daylight and traffic so now they have to find something to do lyra keeps complaining she's hungry will's tired and then it hits will's like i'll take you to the movies to the cinema and lyra's like i don't know what that is they walked on minutes will get some popcorn hot dogs and coca-cola and they go inside as the film starts lyra is of course entranced she is delighted she keeps making

noises and like will's thinking like thank god everybody is like eating noisily and they don't hear her because she's just so excited about it by the end she does not want to leave she's like this was the best thing i've ever seen your world has something so much cooler than mine finally hold on you left out not only does lyra say that movies are super great, better than things in her world. She also says that hamburgers, hamburgers are pretty dope. Yeah, also like walking while eating food. She's like, this is just a marvel. It is a marvel. Yeah, she's like, I don't understand. I don't think she approves. She's not about that life. I don't think she approves. She's not about that life.

It's kind of like how book Lyra is all about wearing skirts. How she's like, pants? That's inappropriate. She's like, I'm not about that life. It's still totally light out. Will asks if she wants to see another movie. And he takes her down the street to another movie. When it's over, it's close to 11pm, and Lyra is hungry again.

Okay, two thoughts. First of all, is it kind of like a date? Yep. Second of all, you can tell that Will is a good boy because he actually bothered to go and find another cinema and actually pay to go to the movie instead of just sneaking into another showing in the same theater yeah and uh for what it's worth

like he did sleep through the whole date like he totally just like naps during the whole time but which is a mood yeah it's still like also it's sad because this is I mean, you think of like there's totally TV movie style crap, but it it exists as a trope in literature and in media as a reason of kids like hiding out in cinemas and kids, you know, skipping school, troubled children on the run, you know, doing stuff. stuff um it very much fills that like lifetime home movie kind of crap of that here those are the places to hide out in you know big dark room no one's gonna find will there no big pale blonde guy that's true it is a trope but again they find another hamburger cart they eat and they walk and lyra's all about like you know what tomorrow i'm gonna go see mary malone again and work on the shadows engine again i bet i could help her i could probably get the scholars to give her the money she wants to you know how my father did it lord asriel he played a trick on them hmm lyra continues to tell will about the grumman stanislaus trick that Asriel pulled. Interesting.

Mm-hmm. Interesting. They stroll up Bamberry Road. Lyra tells him all of it, not just the head, the journey from Mrs. Coulter's to Roger's death over on Svalbard, and Will is pretty sympathetic toward her. He listens quietly to her balloon voyage full of bears and witches, and they come to the ring road with hornbeam trees once more.

I just want to double back that Lyra's idea for Mary Malone to get funding is to pull a dead head. Like, does that work? I know a couple of you work in universities who listen to this. Please tell us, you know, if you ever take this strategy to try

and get more funding for your research project project please let us know how that goes for you coming back to this you know from what we can tell the summary of what lyra tells will like she's really keeping her promise to him here right it sounds like she's actually sticking to the truth unlike how we would see lyra recant like her story to people all the time in book one she She would always embellish it greatly, right? She's probably still embellishing a little bit here and there when she's

telling Will, because, I mean, you can only resist so much. But she was really into giving these very fantastical stories about her life and adventure in book one. These are big, vulnerable nuggets that she's offering up to Will right now. You know, I mean mean she willingly just willing oh she willingly just told him about roger right and then she

decided you know what i'm feeling kind of vulnerable and talky will i'm feeling chatty we're gonna talk about all of it um and the fact that pullman writes it as she told him and he doesn't tell us exactly what else she told him. He just says that she told him all of it. That I think is what whispers volumes. Because if it was some big production, a Lyra production, we would have known. Yeah. She would have been like, and there were swords.

And horses. Big mood. Big mood. Pretty much. Right now there's no traffic. so they finally lurch through the window appearing under palm trees against the sea will feels relief lyra yawns things are peaceful but not for long because suddenly they hear screaming beyond the cafe lyra actually like grabs will just like oh god uh she doesn't say oh god and in her head you know we that's what i would be thinking

um that the text doesn't tell us that happens either anyways they run to the square near the stone tower they see 20 good men oh my god there's children there's 20 children or so in a semicircle there's sticks in hands throwing rocks at something that seems to be trapped

no this is not animal crossing but god does it really feel like it right now whose island are we on wait are you guys throwing are you throwing things at people when you play animal crossing i mean i hit you with an axe the other day when i was on your island oh i missed that i was just like i have a picture of it i we had axes in our hands at the same time. Oh, yeah. And I swung at you.

Oh, I don't remember you swinging at me. It's there. Lyra realizes that this is not a human whale. Will runs into the group. He pulls them back. He pulls a specific boy back that he flings aside and holds on to. And the group of kids shrink back from this older boy. And they are, of of course led by angelica

and her brother the angelica pickles stupid babies that's actually her the children are attacking a tabby cat one that looks quite like moxie our savior uh the one that will saw in sunderland avenue that brought him into this world it is that cat that went through the window and immediately because will is a very good boy he flings that kid aside and he kneels to the cat and takes her into his arms and we get this line lyra thought for a crazy second that his demon had appeared at last oh he the cat. What's a good boy? He's the best boy. He demands to know why

they're hurting the cat. And they don't answer for a moment. But then Angelica finally is like, total leader. I don't think that you know shit about cats, or about specters, or about Chittagaze, and you're not like us, Will. And Will and Lyra probably somewhere internally yes we told

you all of this very explicitly we said we are not from here we like they didn't even try to hide that and again there's like super super hardcore i feel lord of the flies vibes here again with the children becoming much more violent showing how they're not innocent despite adults thinking maybe the specters aren't coming for the children because of their innocence and that's what protects them I don't think so, it seems like there's something else going on here

everyone is afraid of the cat so while the boy that Will knocked aside is glaring at him like he'd beat his ass which he wouldn't, Will's a murderer the cat is glaring at him like he'd beat his ass which he wouldn't will's a murderer um the cat is very scary to him so he stays back and he asks so where did you guys come from and will's like i don't have to answer that question i don't answer to you i don't answer fucking anyone uh he says that if the cat is bad luck to them then it'll be good luck to lyra and will take that and the cat's coming with

us now yeah and will thinks for just a moment that the kid's hatred might conquer their fear and he's ready to fight them but a low thunderous growl comes from behind the children and there lyra stands with a great roaring leopard at her side she's like i got a big cat mine's bigger than yours um i'm an aristocat i'm an aristocat the aristocats oh my god so there's something that's so fascinating structurally that philip pullman is trying to off, and I won't spoil anything for the discussion, but these two chapters totally feel like three, but it's okay because they're blended together seamlessly. I forgive him. Assuming we're all caught up on both chapters, we're opening in chapter five with Angelica and her brother and this tribe of sad, scared, lonely, lost orphans herding this cat that they're so afraid of. All the while,

Chittagaze has this super lonely echo of where are all the adults? Of course, overshadowing all of this is a young man with curly hair, which we'll talk about later in this episode here. Halfway through chapter six, Serafina learns what specters are and sees them in action. The specters are what has created these orphans in Chittagaze, and they're reminiscent of the vapors that we spoke about from William Blake's works in Little Boy Lost and Found. The sad vapors. So sad vapors. And of course, Joaquin will tell us in the next chapter why the specters were created or how he thinks, basically from thievery and war and from tearing worlds apart, which is

what Lee is simultaneously learning these effects of in the same chapter. And then, of course, we're going to end on this uprising of Lord Asriel's glorious kingdom, the great metallic war machine, glowing angels about dark mountains running on the very life force of these worlds. It's all basically a metaphor for like war and famine and suffering and shit but it's just really really well done that's my ted talk you know absolutely the children immediately run away from panel layman's new leopard form and the square the square is empty they're about to leave but lyra for one moment looks up at the tower and she sees someone looking back at her.

Not a child, but a young man, curly haired. The same one we just spoke about. Gasp. Later they return to the flat above the cafe, giving that cat a can of condensed milk that they find while it tends to its wounds. And Pan tries to be like, hmm, but what if I, too, were a cat just like you? And at first the cat's like, oh, how interesting. Then it's like, oh, no, this is not interesting.

As soon as it realizes that Pan is not a threat and like maybe not really a cat. But Will is very intent on tending to this cat. Lyra watches interestingly as though she'd never really been close to animals. Aside from, you know, bears. She's all like, this is weird that people keep cats as pets here. Cats are, we only have them because they get rid of pests. They just happen to hang around the college. Will thinks that the cat's tail is broken and puts honey on her torn ear.

He's all like, it's an antiseptic lyra can't believe the way that the children are acting she says she's never seen kids act that way and will darkly says he has which i think is quite obviously tied into the next chapter when we see the children and when we see the parents with the specters uh but it's also tied into will and his relationship with his father with this chapter ending with the letters, right? And of course, that relationship with Elaine, his mother, written throughout those letters and in his chapters. I think we saw a little bit of this hinted at even in the show, but Elaine showing up at his school, for instance, the idea of unbid

and the cruelty of children in return for it will understands that pain probably more than anything um seeing these kids act like this for him it's just normal you know he says oh this is just how kids could be lyra absolutely and it kind of proves his point from earlier in the chat he's like sometimes the best way is to not draw attention to yourself, but just to go about unseen in the way that Will does it. Yeah, like, this is why. Yeah, he's seen what bringing attention and standing out can do. Lyra, though, goes to sleep. At some point.

What? Lyra goes to sleep? Lyra? Lyra? Lyra! Lyra? Lyra? Lyra!

We also get a bonus, though, as you'll remember from earlier in this chapter, Will. Will's sleeping quite a bit. Aw. A lot of sleeping. The cat curls up to sleep a little bit later, and Will decides to get up, drink a cup of coffee. He finally decides to read through his father's letters.

They're few. They're written on airmail paper, chapter title, in black ink. You know, it's quite remarkable that Will has a caffeine dependency at this young age. Well, I'm sure there's analysis we could do on that. That's true. So to describe these letters first, so we have, These very marks were made by the hand of the man he wanted so much to find.

He moved his fingers over and over them and pressed them to his face, trying to get closer to the essence of his father. Then he started to read. So our first letter, we have like three letters here. The first one is from Fairbanks, Alaska. Wednesday, 19 June,

1985. Yeah, so this letter is from John to Elaine John Perry his name is and he says that he is and this is what this is from when he's abroad of course traveling and he has a guy he's working with named Nelson that he thinks is a total dimwit and he's chit-chatting about going into a bar with people and asking about the anomaly so the anomaly is something being mentioned in these letters as a very celestial experience maybe perhaps you could liken it to the sky opening up and seeing a city and like a bunch of the aurora in it you know the anomaly uh he's asking someone in a dingy bar about the anomaly and says he wouldn't talk there took me back to his apartment with the help of a bottle of jack daniels he talked for a long time hadn't seen it himself but he'd met neskimo who

had and this chap said it was a doorway into the spirit world they'd known about it for centuries part of the initiation of a medicine man involved going through and bringing back a trophy of some said it was a doorway into the spirit world. They'd known about it for centuries. Part of the initiation of a medicine man involved going through and bringing back a trophy of some kind, though some never came back. He then goes on to talk about some very specific coordinates, very specific mappings, and about some Arctic legends and archaeologists. He's traveling in a balloon with this dimwit named nelson he keeps talking about and then he says none of these people have ever heard of the anomaly and believe me i'm going to keep it like that my fondest love to you both johnny so that's the first letter

it's interesting he calls himself johnny yeah right i didn't take him for a johnny yeah i'm like ew i don't like that john perry never took him for that so then the next letter is from umiet alaska and this one is now dated saturday 22 june 1985 so a few days later and every time y'all he actually calls calls Elaine my darling or darling. Sweet. Yeah. And this time he's like, never mind. Nelson's legit. I actually secretly believe that he's looking for the same thing that I am.

And then Nelson and I are super getting along. And I tried to feel him out by dropping a couple of different hints about the anomaly, but then I buried it with a lot of other things that I found, basically probably from tabloids, who knows. Or just a bunch of other myths and legends. And now he's like, I don't know, do I tell him? Do I not? Gotta figure out Nelson. Yeah, I love that by the end of this letter he explains that he was all like here's a conspiracy theory there's no way this is true you can't believe that and then he's like so what

about the eskimo legend of a doorway into a spirit world and then that's when the beautiful suspicion creeps in and it turns out nelson is looking for the same thing and it's very obvious and he says to elaine at the end gotta work out what his game is fondest love to both johnny and then you get one more two days later sent from colville bar alaska uh this is monday 24th of june 1985 and he is getting a little more heat from the physicist nelson he is pretending to be totally bluffing major perry stout fellow in a crisis but then he realizes this guy is funded by the military the third letter's the charm man uh he thinks i shall stick to my plan take the archaeologists to their spot go off by myself for a few days to look for the anomaly. If I bump into Nelson

wandering around on Lookout Ridge, I'll play it by ear. He goes on and he talks about the friend of Jake Peterson, the Eskimo that he keeps referring to, that he went to go find and he chatted with, and he describes to John Perry about the window. It's like a gap in the air, a sort of window. You look through it and you see another world. But it's not easy to find because that part of the other world looks just like this. Rocks and moss and so forth. He gives another couple different coordinates and then later says, Wish me luck, my darling. I'll bring you back a trophy from the spirit world.

I love you forever kiss the boy for me johnny yeah so there's like a lot in this letter right like he's just giving now more specific coordinates to where this window is something that i thought i think is interesting that i thought about as the show is adapting it you know these are taking place in 1985 john perry's talking about like the soviets looking for the same window to be like a defense thing i wonder how they're going to like play that off in the show like they could still kind of do the same thing but it's so obviously like a sort of cold war rush in that moment so it's just interesting tidbit yeah especially when you get into like

nelson obviously working for the government as he learns you know yeah and i mean so this john perry stuff is a total i mean we get a lot of john perry info dump this next chapter obviously it's like almost like 70 about him but to recap john perry was traveling on an expedition taking advice on shamanism from a man and an inuit searching the windows between worlds hoping to walk the spirit world and bring his wife a trophy home from it and also there's a man funded by the government on the same trip with him who's suspicious that john perry knows what he knows this can't mean anything for the story moving forward right absolutely not why would it there's no connection to be made there's nothing why would anyone be investigating this but okay all right so it does make me think like i had before i hadn't really thought about these

letters that much and i guess i didn't read them very well back then like even this most previous reread until now but i was always like why do they want the letters so bad why do they give so much of a shit but i'm like oh it's because john perry literally put very very very very very very specific coordinates. To a window. Yeah, like, oh, now I get it. No wonder. All right, I see. I see. And, like, I also just want to say, quick side note,

he says that the window is close to a rock that looks like a standing bear, which it's not about that, but it does make me think of Yorick. Oh, I never would have thought of that. Maybe I'm just fried, fried but it's like an easter egg but an easter bear bear yes we end the chapter with will's head rigging he had his dad had found a window too just like him

and he knew it was dangerous after reading letters, he realizes that his mother's terrible danger was real, not just in her head. He has no idea what it means, but being so connected with his father in this moment has him feeling pretty good. He thinks on how they'll talk about it someday when they meet, and he folds up the letters, and he goes to bed. God bless Will Perry. Truly. Well, actually, no. Apparently we don't want that for will perry in this book not this god whatever god's good i don't know pick one anyway now we come to lighted flyers we open with sam cansino a black bearded texan fur trader telling lee scoresby about the reckless Grumman from

the Berlin Academy in a smoky bar of the Sommersky Hotel in Nova Zembla. Lee had been feeding vodka to Sam to get him to talk, great move, and he calls for more. Sam tells him all he knows about this Grumman guy. Grumman cut his leg open to the bone walking into a fur trap and used blood moss, what the bears use to heal it. He was roaring out instructions to his men during this time to take star sights and measurements, even though he was in awful pain. Sam says he was a tartar by initiation.

As Lee tips more vodka into his glass, Hester crouched at his elbows. The Samirsky Hotel is the place for gossip for jobs in the Arctic Drift, and Lee had been here before many times. With so much changing in their world, it's not out of the ordinary for people to gather and talk. I love, like, just the overall geography of this. So, apparently, like, Nova Zambla is, in fact, a real island. Yes.

In Canada, in the Arctic archipelago. Yes. And our world, the Yenisei River, is the largest river system that flows in the Arctic and the central of the three main Siberian rivers. So the Gulf and its islands surrounding there belong to Russia, technically. But this is all some real world stuff. Yeah, but you know, there's so much changing in their world. It's not out of the ordinary for people to gather and talk. Because the River Yenisei, as you just spoke of, it's free of ice at the moment. Pretty remarkable considering this is an Arctic archipelago. The oceans drained partially away which is pretty weird sea formations were showing up

also a giant squid had torn up three fishermen from their boat and the fog just keeps rolling in what is it with every story and the giant squid like how you know things are getting weird it's always like and then the giant squid came in and that's always it. Real Eldritch hours. Yeah, but there's always a giant squid. But anyways, everyone's all like, yeah, work is real bad right now in the north. But at least the bar is packed. Yeah, they're all just getting bombed.

An elderly man in a seal hunter rig from the bar is eavesdropping. His lemming demon is in his pocket and he's like, ah, yeah, Grumman was a tartar, all right, piping in. And he's like, he had that hole in his pocket and he's like ah yeah grumman was a tartar all right piping in and he's like he had that hole in his head drilled i saw them drill it myself he had a tartar name but i can't think of it right now so lee's like i'm gonna buy you a drink and maybe that will help you think of it and he's like which tribe did grumman belong to and the man

gives us a little info dump on the Yenisei Paktars. They live at the foot of the Samanov Range with a large rock at the landing. Grumman was a shaman and the tribe recognized him as such before the drilling actually happened. The drilling went on two nights

in a day and they used a bow drill. Sam Cancino pipes in and he's like that's why they respected him so much because he was a shaman. Sam Cancino pipes in and he's like that's why they respected him so much because he was a shaman. Yeah Sam was very confused he's like why is everyone following this guy's orders and he'd actually attributed it to Grumman's cursing which I actually think is hilarious. I think deep down he still kind of thinks maybe it was the cursing. I think deep down he still kind of thinks maybe it was the cursing. It could be both.

It could be both. It's kind of funny that Lee's all like plying him with drink here. That happens quite a bit because, what, in John Perry's first letter, he's all like, I wanted to know more about this guy's info, so I poured in more Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels, sponsor us. I mean, actually, Jack Daniels. It's alright. Anyway, sorry. I'll take it.

Grumman was curious. He asked Sam about the land, the animals, wolverines, and foxes, and he was documenting everything about his leg in the animal trap. Temperature during fever, blood moss results, scar form. There was a witch, actually, who had wanted

to take Grumman as a lover, and he was all like, no. There's this line, and I think it's very important, I'll be Lee here. Don't worry, you can be the seal hunter, Eliana. Oh, okay. Is that so, said Lee, thinking of the beauty of Seraphina Pecola.

Hmm. Chloe's staring off in the distance, thinking of the beauty oferafina Pecola. Chloe's staring off in the distance, thinking of the beauty of Serafina Pecola. Every day. He shouldn't have done that, said the seal hunter. A witch offers you her love, you should take it. If you don't, it's your own fault if bad things happen to you. It's like having to make a choice. A blessing or a curse.

The one thing you can't do is choose neither this reads a lot like the choice passage between seraphina and lee in the first book during fog and ice uh seraphina peckle considered and then said perhaps we don't mean the same thing by choice mr scoresby which is own nothing so we're not interested in preserving value or making profits and as for the choice between one thing and another, when you live for many hundreds of years, you know every opportunity will come again. It perfectly cushions that transition over to the witches as the point of view for the rest of this chapter. And it's interesting to see the witches once more kind of used here as a plot device.

I digress. Another relevant quote here though is when seraphina says in that same chapter we are all subject to the fates but we must all act as if we are not or die of despair interesting especially in the context of this whole story but you know bourbon i would very much like to not be part of this narrative. Lee interjects and says, well, it's probably because he was faithful to another woman. That was the rationale he gave to them on Grumman's behalf. And he said, I actually heard something else about Grumman, that he knew the location of a secret object that would protect the holder.

And the seal hunter says, says well he knew where it was but he didn't have it also grumman killed a man who tried to get the information from him sam cansino pipes in about grumman's demon a black eagle with a white head and breast and the bartender is like oh grumman yeah she was an osprey a fish eagle and then the barman sets the story completely straight on grumman's disappearance because everyone has all these wild ideas of what happened and he's like nah he was camped out on saccharin and there was an avalanche and then he heard it from an inuit man who was with him who saw it themselves lee's passing the bottle around again at this point to keep everyone nice and drunk and he's like ah the one thing i can't figure out is what grumman was doing was it looking for resources was it military related or philosophical

sam and him talk about the measurements that grumman was taking and sam says that he was measuring the aurora and that his main passion seemed to of ancient things? like dust? I mean ancient things do tend to be covered in dust you know is that there long enough? also want to do a quick note of when Lee's asking philosophical heroes

we know in his world that basically means scientific yeah because I kind of forgot that and I was like that that's weird. Anyways. The seal hunter then offers to network on LinkedIn for Lee, saying that on the mountain, there's an observatory that

belongs to the Imperial Muscovite Academy and they'll be able to tell Lee more. And Sam finally goes, wait, hang on. Why do you want to know? And Lee's like, he owes me money and they're all satisfied and they move on and i i just love that everyone's like oh yes of course gotcha make sense debtors yeah tom nook the conversation shifts into global climate change finally

and how beyond the immense fog lies a whole new world leah's super interested and he's like i'm gonna push the conversation further i love him uh the hunter tells him that when it first happened he was out in his kayak and looked north seeing mountains and lands and harbors and trees and fields in the sky he said he would have gone straight into it had the fog not come with it sam says there's no way lee is getting that money since grumman is definitely dead and the seal hunter is like oh i remember his tartar name it was joe parry come again what is that sorry interesting my throat joe parry joery? Joppery?

doesn't ring a bell interesting anyways and Lee's like gotta go get that money I'm gonna go to the observatory at North is that can I fake my death for Tom Nook?

Lee hires a dog sledge driver and after a lengthy haggling session later he is on his way with the tartar the tartar's arctic fox demon helps navigate them very useful and Lee keeps checking his compass and realizes oh well this is fucking garbage now thanks to the magnetic

field of the earth being disturbed which is interesting his compass isn't telling the truth no one's is but lyra's is even though phil pullman was like i never actually meant for it to be called the golden compass i don't know why we would fucking call it whatever the tartar tells lee this isn't the first time that the sky has opened his people remember it many thousands of generations ago the The sky falls open. Spirits move between worlds.

Ice melts. It all freezes again, and the spirits close up the hole after a while. Lee asks Umach the Tartar what is going to happen, and he says there will be a big spirit war, and that's the extent of the conversation. He drops Lee off at the front path and says he'll wait for him here lee climbs for half an hour and he finds the observatory amidst the fog and finds a group of astronomers to gossip with about grumman the director says he's an englishman in spite of his name but then the deputy interrupts and he's like no he was a member of the imperial german academy and i met him in berlin and i am sure he was german but the director director is like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

He was English. He was a member of the Berlin Academy and he was a geologist. But then someone else pipes in and they were like, no, he was a paleoarchaeologist, not a geologist. And then that someone is interrupted by a Yoruba man who is very sensible and says, why would you just add paleo to the front when archaeology is already studying the old?

Why do you need it to be even older? The person that suggests the paleoarchaeology says Grumman's search for remains from 30,000 years ago that number keeps coming up, older than you'd expect, and the director thinks that's nonsense

and he asks for the evidence of civilization being that old 30 000 it's like the 20 good men of the story but yeah i do love how it's tying back to all those references that we discussed about civilizations 30 000 years ago you know mary malone's colleague was studying it people and of course the people's skepticism about it yeah they refuse to believe it paleo archaeology is obviously real and it's actually the archaeology of deep time it focuses on hominid fossils ranging from 15 million to 10 000 years ago and basically it just emphasizes human evolution and how we've adapted to our environment. Under the ice, said the pole. That's the point. According to Grumman, the Earth's magnetic field changed dramatically at various times in the past, and the Earth's axis actually moved too, so the temperate areas became icebound.

Grumman apparently had photograms of these odd formations, and the director's laughing it off like, oh, it doesn't mean anything. And I'm like, that's pretty bold considering that's literally happening to you right now. You can pull out a compass and everyone would fucking know. Um. Meta. It does feel like 10 years ago was ancient though.

We live in a society. We live in a society. Lee asks how they knew Grumman and they list off another batch of grumman's successes the director's like i met him seven years ago the yoruba said he had a paper on variations in magnetic pole two years before the director met him but he came out of nowhere with no prior work truly amazing if only someone could just establish themselves with no connections um white men anyways so the the terminology of where people are from you know this is one of the ways that pullman's doing is

like sort of world building to show this is a different world but i'm still like always a little curious about what that means in terms of what exploration and the international affairs meant in this world. Because Lee is thinking in terms of the words like Skrilling and Yoruba here, which refers to an ethnic group in Africa, which right now the people are distributed between Nigeria and Benin. And these borders that we think of a lot of them come from more of that like colonizer perspective of these artificial lines that were drawn

up right for like because European countries were like I don't know I think I want to break it up like this even though it made no fucking sense so for Lee to be thinking of them in terms of like Yoruba but also thinking of like as you'll note like

he talks about the Inuit people which stands in great contrast to how John Perry's letters keep talking about Eskimo which is considered a slur for Inuit people whereas you know Lee is using these actual ethnic groups names um that they're more comfortable using for themselves so it makes me wonder like how things again played out here but it could also just be like i don't know those places could exist with other names like the countries that we have delineated here or something like that and maybe lee's just actually fucking respectful and specific well i'd also say it comes from his profession right like oh yeah let's face it he's a han solo smuggler like davos seaworth you know from a song of ice and fire character he is out on the open wind and he meets all these people and i mean uh he has to be good at speaking to people yeah and acknowledging them that's true that's true he trades with

foreign people like all the time to him yeah and like that's a way to establish connections especially in his work and i think that makes sense because he is using the term scrambling for this other guy which like isn't like probably the proper terminology for whatever this guy's ethnicity is i mean let's be real like lee's best friend is a fucking bear i mean the guy is pretty diverse okay that's true the panther bjorn yeah i'm just saying and that's like pretty much almost it was almost a fucking extinct race for a hot second there because that fucking jackass gang about to get all them killed by the magisterium i'm just saying a protected bear class so yeah lee's just got a lot of knows a lot of people in a lot of different

places and has learned a lot he's a worldly man but one of these other people they're brewing a coffee and hester tells lee you know you gotta look at this guy that's grilling he's spoken very little yeah that man is like very angrily just like staring and lee's like maybe it's just his face maybe he just has resting bitch face pastor's like lee get a grip lee what are you doing and then lee Lee's like, oh yes, I see. He is wearing a ring with the church symbol engraved upon it. Then we have this line of every philosophical research establishment

so he'd heard had to include on its staff a representative of the magisterium to act as a censor and suppress the news of any heretical discoveries. So realizing this and remembering something he'd heard Lyra say, he asked, Tell me, gentlemen,

do you happen to know if Grumman ever looked into the question of dust? You have Lee here, now learning how to troll hardcore from Lyra. Well, to be fair, he learned the topic from Lyra i'll give you that but i think lee like you know he's uh he's pretty good he had that chat with her way back in northern lights when he was like you know what if your dad lied kid maybe your dad didn't really have

grumman's head and i feel like this whole search is encompassing that one line pretty much he's all like alright so everyone thinks that they know what's up with Grumman sounds like Asriel took advantage of that but anyways after he asks that question everyone falls silent

they immediately look at Skrilling out of the side of their eyes or like they're not even really looking at him but everyone knows that the attention's focused there and Lee's like shit Hester was right so then he acts all innocent and apologizes for offending them and then

Skrilling asks where'd you learn about it? and he answers honestly from Passenger a while back yeah he's like I don't really know what it is but it sounds like something Grumman might be into and he's like I think I heard it was Celestial but it sounds like slain grumman might be into and he's like i think i heard it was celestial but i'm surprised because i've never heard nothing about it in my years as an aeronaut in the skies and he says whatever it is what is it and the screaming says

it's not important it's merely a celestial phenomenon do not ask about it and lee's like ah that's my clue to get the fuck out of here so he bids them adieu he grabs up hester he's like let's go he follows her down the path and 10 minutes into their walk they are attacked by the scrayling's owl the owl misses lee pulls his revolver out hester starts playing lookout and he shoots at the scrayling his demon crumples to the ground struggling to fold her snowy owl wings and lee's like you are a damn fool we are all in the same boat right now with this goddamn sky and here you are trying to shoot me the scrayling tells him it is too late to stop and the magisterium already knows of your increase i've sent a message people are now looking for grumman

and then he's like lee you're an enemy of the church now and he's like thank god no i'm joking uh and then as he's passing the scrambling quotes this line by their fruits shall ye know them by their questions shall you see the serpent gnawing at their heart i love this because it's a total variation slight variation on matthew 7 16 from the new testament which is, So basically, Jesus was stating that one will be able to identify false prophets by the fruit they bear or the lies they bring to the table. But the irony, of course, is that the magisterium is the bad guys here, and they're actually the false prophets. is the bad guys here and they're actually the false prophets yeah and uh there's that second line that obviously isn't in this bit for matthew 7 16 but they are using the bible verses where they are the villains absolutely and like we know that the bible is a little different in this

yeah world uh one of the key ways was, we talked about that Garden of Eden passage in the last book. But here, I do think that that last slide, right, it sounds like it's supposed to be part of the Bible here. By their question, shall ye see the serpent gnawing at their heart? But it actually part of their history, but something that the Magisterium kind of, like, snuck in there. Because it's very much the way it's phrased, intended to squash curiosity. Yeah, I agree. No, absolutely. The owl is now softly hooting, and the snow's turning red around the scrilling. Lee's like, alright, alright, I'm gonna stop the bleeding, and then he's like, no! I will now have the martyr's palm, and you will not deprive me of that! Yeah, Lee's like, fine, I have one last question before you go, and the Skrilling's like, can't do that. The owl shivers, disappears, and the Skrilling's like, bye, I'm dead. And I really like this bit.

bye i'm dead and i i really like this bit um most martyrs in western christian art you know they're depicted as holding the palm frond or leaf and usually it symbolizes victory of spirit over flesh because those who have been killed over religious persecution or their testimony in their god or jesus uh are usually interred with a palm leaf on their tomb. So the palm branches carried on Palm Sunday originate in the triumphal entry of Christ into Jerusalem. And there's also in the book of Leviticus, for example, God told Moses to command the people. He said, on the first day, you shall take the product of hadar trees, branches of palm

trees, bows of leafy trees, and willows of the brook. Since then, in Judaism, the palm was seen as a fertile tree. Its fronds used to symbolize victory or triumph, part of sukkot, sort of a harvest event. And in ancient Greece, athletes were awarded with a palm at the completion of their race to celebrate a victory as well. So the palm is very, very, very symbolic when it comes to a lot of religious history and just history in general. Yeah, it's interesting that the Magisterium has kept it going into this time. Like, do they give them a palm?

Like, is this guy going to get a painting made out of him? Like, with the palm in it? Like, can everyone just expect to have a painting made out of them? I guess that's also kind of meta when you think about it too like this is what you're willing to die for what it's almost like the scrailing is looking at lee in the eye for in the eye you know and saying like this is what i'm dying for yeah and it's like really really dog hester tells lee to take the scrailing's ring though since it could get them out of trouble if they come across the church and at first he refuses he's like I'm not a thief and Hester's like I don't know we're renegades you got to do it anyway right now he does it too and it is smart uh he rolls

the Skræling's body over the rocky cliff edge and we get this passage that makes me so sad Lee had never enjoyed violence and he hated killing although he'd had to do it three times before. No sense in thinking that, said Hester. He didn't give us a choice, and we didn't shoot to kill. Damn it, Lee. He wanted to die. These people are insane. I guess you're right, he said, and put the pistol away.

Seven out of ten. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm working on it it i'm not very good with accents it's actually very much my weak point you'll get there you'll just practice all the lee lines from now on uh they get to umak ready to go with the dogs this is like the funniest part of the chapter to me because it turns out umak knows literally half of the information lee found in the observatory and bar combined so all this truly could have been like

partially avoided umak is like everyone knows dr grumman and he tells me that joe parry is not a tartar name lee asks if he's dead and umak says i can I can't tell you that, but you should ask the Yenisei tribe. Umak says that he could be dead, could be alive, could be neither. Maybe he's in the spirit world. Really fucking helpful, Umak. I mean, in a way he kind of is, but where was Pullman's editor? Has he recanted all this information? Wink, wink.

Back at the station, Lee goes to the docks. He's looking for a ship to find the Yenisei. And the witches, I guess, are looking for some stuff, too. It's not a new chapter, by the way. Just making sure we all know this is one chapter. It was really long in the next part. But anyway. So to recap real quick.

Joe Parry. Grumman. Stanislaus Grumman. Joe Parry. Grumman, Stanislaus Grumman, Joe Parry. John Parry. Is a guy, to recap, who planned to walk the spirit world, who had an Inuit man see him die in an avalanche? Interesting.

Interesting. This couldn't possibly mean anything moving forward. No, why would it. And so we go to those witches. When will this chapter end? Never. Never. Fucking never. Ruta Scottie. I feel like I'm saying her name like

Scottie. Ruta Scottie doesn't know. I was going to say that! Scottie doesn't know. Don't tell Ruta. Scottie doesn't know. That't tell Ruta. Scotty doesn't know. That is like the later part of this chapter. Anyway, Serafina flew for days and nights

in a strange world that they don't know with strange animals and scents. They find food and shelter and the land is almost good to live on. Except for, you know, the weird like spooky specters that fly overhead like mist. Ruta Scototti asks if Serafina thinks the mists are alive.

And Serafina says she can't really answer that, but she sure can feel their malice. The specters are earthbound, thankfully, but later the witches see what they can do. They hover over a river crossing where a band of travelers with no demons seem to be moving along, because we are in a different

world, everyone. A cry comes from the leading horse where a man points at the trees the specters come pouring out onto the people and the people scatter the adult leaders completely abandon the group as fast as they can seraphina is in shock she tells her sisters to watch but not interfere until she commands she notices that there are children in the group, but the children don't seem to really see the specters and the specters don't seem to see them either. The specters

only have misty eyes for the adults. There's an old woman with two kids in her lap and she's actually trying to use the kids as a shield or something, but then the kids get free of her running around they're reaping as specters start attacking the adults and the old woman then ends up enveloped by the shimmering mist and all the adults, except for two who ran, the two who ran earlier are quote unquote devoured by the mist.

We have this scene with the father with his child and they're trying to actually ford the river to run, but unfortunately the specter gets him anyways. And the child is crying on his father's back while he slows down and just starts to stand in the water, helpless. What was happening to him? Serafina hovered above the water a few feet away, gazing, horrified. She'd heard from the travelers in her own world of the legend of the vampire, and she thought of that as she watched the specter busy gorging on something. Some quality the man had, his soul, his demon perhaps, for in this world, evidently, demons were inside, not outside. His arms slackened under the child's

thighs, and the child fell into the water behind him and grabbed vainly at his hand, gasping, crying, but the man only turned his head slowly and looked down with perfect grabbed vainly at his hand gasping crying but the man only turned his head slowly and looked down with perfect indifference at his little son drowning beside him super sad it's obviously like not the same but what i think of during these scenes is like tony mccarius and his mother like tony mccarius in the books and like how addiction had taken his mother from him and she wasn't like altogether always there or aware of him and that made tony vulnerable to be taken and you can kind of see that i think reflected here with these children's parents it It's just like Little Boy Lost.

The night was dark, no father was there, the child was wet with dew. The mire was deep, and the child did weep, and away the vapor flew. The mire was deep. And the child did weep. And away the vapor flew. Seraphina swoops in to save the child, and a specter almost hits her,

feeling a hideous pain at her heart and ruda helps pull them both to safety the specter drifting mist behind sarah fina ruda tries to shoot an arrow at it but it just goes straight through by the time it's over all the adults left have a terrible stillness about them and sarah fina tries to speak to one of the women her eyes are vacant although she looks up at seraphina's pinches and she looks down and away again the other witches look at victims as well and they are despondent one of the witches points out the horseman ahead who had initially fled uh and he's watching the scene seraphina springs into the air to speak with him at first

he unslings the rifle from his back and he's wheeling his horse around for safety but seraphina springs into the air to speak with him at first he unslings the rifle from his back and he's wheeling his horse around for safety but seraphina makes the gesture of putting her bow down uh which is an obvious of course sign of peace so the guy lowers his own rifle and waits and watches the scene of like these beautiful young ferocious women wearing black silk scraps and riding pine branches and you know he's waiting he's wearing calm seraphina though sees sorrow and strength in his face as she starts to go towards him they exchange names his is joaquin lorenz and he asks them if they treat with the devil since they're witches i thought it was great that his name was joaquin though because the husband of saint anne and the father of mary mother of jesus is joaquin of nazareth i was like oh good reference pullman uh and he is the father here right he is the uh male

role of these children so joaquin of nazareth marries St. Anne. He's a philanthropist. He's pious. He comes to settle in Jerusalem. His sacrifices go unnoticed by God. He's unable to get Anne pregnant, and he withdraws to the desert. He fasts and does penance for 40 days. An angel promises them a child, and then Mary, mother of Jesus, is born. And the rest, as they say, is fiction. But she asks if that would make no laughter at that. That was a great line. The rest, as they say, is fiction. Yes. She asks if that would make them his enemy, and he says maybe once.

But times are different now. He's surprised that they don't know about the specters, and it's really astounding how everyone doesn't seem to understand like yes they're not from here like if there's anywhere in the world that you think people would get it it's here right and he says there's no defense against them that only the children remain untouched and any traveling party now usually has one man and one woman by law uh on horseback because they have to run if the specters attack or else the children are just gonna like be on their own yeah but the problem is that the specters have

multiplied and where there used to be no more than like a dozen at a time to deal with now there are far more he asks what they're looking for and she tells him she's looking for a child, named Lyra Bellacqua, called Lyra Silvertongue. He hasn't seen her, but he did see angels the other night, making for the pole, troops of them, armed, shining in the air. He talks about how his grandfather had often spoken of them, that they passed through their world semi-often. Serafina asks if he'll tell them more about the world in exchange for their guard against the specters that night he agrees they help to move the wagons away from the specters but must painfully leave the adults behind the younger children don't understand why they're leaving their parents behind the older ones look bleak and dumb having already lost some of their owners seen it happen

yeah seraphina picked up the little boy and let me have this line seraphina picked up the little boy who'd fallen in the river and he was crying out for his daddy reaching back over seraphina's shoulder to the silent figure still standing in the water indifferent seraphina felt his tears on her bare skin i often don't like the way that pullman writes the witches as we know but i do appreciate kind of this contrast between Serafina and Ruta in this chapter where Serafina is cautious and careful and aware and Ruta doesn't even look back when she leaves them. Serafina gives Lee this speech that's, you know, the bigger picture is more important than your balloon, Lee Scoresby. But here she is grasping at a little boy who's fallen in the river, saving him.

Yeah, that's true. Serafina watches the female rider with the group. She wears rough canvas breeches and rides like a man, saying nothing to the witches. She moves the children along sternly, ignoring their tears. I thought this was an interesting bit to

pull out because this woman is not really given much besides this as characterization uh she just ran off at the beginning and you do notice her in the background as being a woman when you learn that there's a man and a woman in the party but it's something that i think lo our friend lo they would have a lot of really good stuff to say about this actually and they did just put out some gender in his dark material stuff and now i'm like i want a full analysis of this yeah how this woman goes unnamed and has no lines but joaquin lawrence even gets a fucking last name yeah get a line that actually includes him with the evening sun suffaced the air with a golden light in which every detail was clear and nothing was dazzling, and the faces of the children and the man and woman too seemed immortal and strong and beautiful. Later as the embers of a fire glowed in the circle

of ashy rocks and the great hills lay calm under the moon, Joachim Lorenz told Serafina and Ruth Tiscotti about the history of his world. The prose is totally lit in these chapters, though, where I feel like Subtle Knife is really good. It builds really well. But Northern Lights was great and had great prose. But I feel like Subtle Knife prose is like Pullman. Damn, you pulled it out on this one for sure. Absolutely.

Yeah. He's enjoying himself. maybe he could have made two chapters though but whatever oh my god joaquin tells the witches that once his world was happy with elegant cities fertile fields and no children were hungry fishermen and merchants had game and product and the great cities like brazil or benin ireland korea all had fortunes and great economies. There's this line that I thought was kind of standout. At night, masked lovers met under the rose hung colonnades or in the lamplit gardens and the air stirred with the scent of jasmine and throbbed to the music of the wire strung mandarin. I thought it was just like such a very romantic, like you can see the

scene and you can feel the heat of the night in the air. And I almost feel like this has some Eurasia influence going on here, right? This mandarin, I'm not sure if this is like random lost small world building that's supposed to represent a mandolin. I'm just I'm not sure. Maybe more of this in the discussion or maybe I save it for a rainy day when you finish the Commonwealth because I feel like there might be something here. Maybe there is. Maybe. Maybe. But 300 years ago, everything changed when the Fire Nation attacked. Of the Torre degli Angeli, the Tower of the Angels' fault, or it was judgment for some great unknown sin but the specters appeared out of nowhere and

the world had been haunted since like original sin yeah for them for this world no way yeah in a way uh there is something i wanted to pop out and there's a picture i'm gonna share links with you guys in the description don't you worry but the torah tavira in uh cadiz spain it's an 18th century creation in cadiz famous for its watchtowers and the biggest watchtower the focal point the highest point in the whole town north of the plaza de toperi often referred to as the plaza of flowers a triangular plaza but it's just interesting architecture to think of this square as inspiration for uh for this area and for of course chittagaze it had a 1700s observation tower a camera obscura and two exhibition halls and it's absolutely gorgeous and now i can never see chittagaze any other way and then we have another quote here now imagine what it is to

live in a world with specters in it how can we prosper when we can't rely on anything continuing as it is at any moment a father might be taken or a mother and the family fall apart a merchant might be taken and his enterprise fall and all his clerks and factors lose their employment and how can lovers trust their vows all the trust and all the virtue fell out of our world when the specters came like coven 19 came i mean actually though like disease really does break down trust within societies oh yeah i trust no one i don't even know my cats oh my god um dirty little they can stay in their room. Don't they already? Yes.

But trust seems to be like a thing between these two chapters, right? Earlier it was Lyra and Will talking about trusting one another. But I don't know, I think it's interesting how Joaquin frames this not in the sense of just how horrible this thing that the Spectres are doing.

We're seeing that immediate impact, right? But it takes a huge toll on the stability by removing that sense of public trust, not just in the world, but for everyone with each other. And we see what that looks like with the younger generation of why and how Angelica and the other children are super shitty to Will and Lyra, and even to cats. Yeah, I mean, the specters are just the symptom of the bigger overarching disease and as we get to the end of this chapter we're going

to see the disease in full functioning glory right being built seraphina inquires about the philosophers and the tower and gets some answers the tower exists in chitigaze the city of magpies and we of course have talked about chitigaze already but it's named that because magpies steal and that is all that they do now they create nothing and steal from other worlds the philosophers and the tower of angels discovered everything they could about other worlds and doors to them and that let the specters in at the same time. And the tool to get into these worlds is still used, he says, to get gold, jewel, corn, pencils, and that's the source of their wealth in this world,

the Guild of Thieves, he bitterly calls them. Yeah, so the Torah Deli Anjali slash Tower of Angels, like, here very much feels like it's Chidagaze's version of the Tower of Babel. It's like a feat of hubris from humans who thought that they could just take everything, including knowledge, because it seems like their great sin isn't necessarily that they were connecting

worlds with one another, because we see that Pullman wrote that once Chittagaze was this flourishing place because it was a port of great cultural exchange. They had jasmine flowers, they had people from all over the world, and they were a flourishing city because of that. But it was what was made in the tower that was sinful because afterwards people stopped participating in that sort of cultural exchange. They stopped coming together and making things together. in that sort of cultural exchange. They stopped coming together and making things together.

The people of Chittagaze weren't giving things back to the other worlds that they were going to or sharing their own knowledge. They would just take things and bring it back and be like, look, I have this now. They weren't like, I made this. They're like, I just got this. And so the punishment, in a way, not actually consciously from someone,

but the punishment for that is like for the people there is well if you're not going to use this power of knowledge and thinking anyway to like improve and to make things if you're going to be lazy then it's like well the story yeah the story takes it from them in terms of that thought and consciousness through the specters that's a really good way to look at it no especially when you look at like resources and i mean it's absolutely again meta commentary on some of the countries in this world we live in in this world absolutely it's when you know people with power abuse that power and instead of using it to create and using your power to actually you know

create a full functioning self-sustaining economy yeah because like sometimes tools can be used and like it makes everything better right like the printing press and everyone being like wow this is rad we can all like just make information easier for everyone to get yeah the problem is that they were just reallocating it. They weren't reallocating the means of production. Yeah, they weren't even learning to make it themselves. Teach Amanda Fish. Anyways.

Anyways. Ruta asks why the children are unharmed by the specters, and Joaquin says it's the greatest mystery of them all. The innocence of children possesses some sort of power to keep specters away from them. Hmm. But specter orphans are common, and they roam the country, making money from adults to get supplies for them,

drifting, scavenging. Wow, too on the nose. It's a rough balance, but life had been like this so far. That is, until the storm hit. It is interesting that all the children here, these specter orphans, who are super sad seeming, are so differently characterized from Angelica and her

team. The younger ones here are scared, the older ones are already bleak and seem listless. It's almost as though the specters have come for them already even though they aren't old enough, and I think that's part of what's just so sad about this world. There's no future, not just because of all the things Joaquin was saying, but also because the children realize, well, shit, what's the fucking point?

This is what awaits me. They can't even envision a future to work towards and try to build. to work towards and try to build. Yeah, they're just trying to survive where these children that roam the lands, like he's speaking of, like Angelica and their group, I mean, they are... Angelica.

They're what happens after, right? They're the anger that comes after the cut, after the loss. They've already been through this. They've already grieved. They're all the lost boys. Absolutely. But they're all going to eventually grow up

and shit's going to get bad. But we don all gonna eventually grow up and shit's gonna get bad. But we don't want to grow up, Peter. In the storm, there were great cracking noises like the world breaking apart followed by an immense fog that covered everything. And once the fog cleared, the specters came by thousands across the land. And Joachim's like,

Now it's your turn! No, he doesn't say it with that much gusto I'm sorry that was a lie why have the witches come to our world and what is your world like Seraphina tells him as much as she knows truthfully since you know he was pretty honest with her too when she's done he considers

what she said and he says to her I told you about the power they say our philosophers have of opening the way to other worlds. Well, something that occasionally they leave a doorway open out of forgetfulness. I wouldn't be surprised if travelers from other worlds found their way here from time to time. We know that angels pass through after all. Yes, why would anyone be surprised about that? Literally.

He explains angels to her. Their name for themselves is the Bene Elim, which loosely is the same pretty much as the Bene Elom, the class of angels closest to mortals, like the sons of gods in both the Hebrew Bible and the Christian Apocrypha. And it came to pass when men began to multiply on the face of earth and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men

that they were fair and they took them wives of all which they chose and the lord said my spirit shall not always strive with man for that he is also his flesh yet his days shall be 120 years there were giants in the earth in those days and also after that when the sons of god came in unto the daughters of men and they bear children to them and the same became mighty men which were of old men of renown genesis 6 1 to 4 so in christianity there are these different classes of angels divided by spheres i'm just going to talk about the a-listers you know the first sphere angels we're just going to pop it with the a-listers here pop some cavasier here with uh

thrones are actually the one i really want to talk about the most here but they function as yes game of uh thrones they function as chariots of god driven by cherubs they are peaceful and submissive and depicted as great wheels that have many eyes, living in the cosmos where material first takes shape. They sing glory to God, give out divine justice, keep cosmic harmony. Thrones are associated by some with the Ophanim or the Erelim from the Jewish-angelic hierarchy. The idea they are separate or one and the same is often debated as well. They're very closely related to cherubs in many scriptures,

like Ezekiel 10, 17. When they stopped, the others stopped. When they rose from the earth, the wheels rose along with them, for the spirit of the living creatures, cherubism, was in the wheels. Seraphim, which translates to literally to burning ones, is a synonym for serpents, usually in the Bible. They're the highest class of angels and serve god at his throne and cherubs have four faces man ox lion eagle and they guard the tree of life in eden and the throne of god i think pullman's very much so playing with some of these things especially as we'll learn maybe with facets of personalities for angels from the first sphere and it's obvious he's kind of created them almost

into a militia a military order of angels here yeah i think um that's definitely something he's pulling from uh i want to say when you're talking about the chariots driven by cherubs i was like, but what if they were chair-ubs? Like, chairs that you sit on. Anyways, there's also in a moment later in this chapter where the text tells us that Ruta Scotty sees the angels as having human-like bodies, but that's because that's what she expects them to look like and see. And they're like, but if she could actually see what they look like, they look more like architectures of intelligence and emotion

or something like that. But Ruta's too young to really get it. She's only 400 years old. But it does make me think of a line that John Perry allegedly quotes to Nelson from Hamlet of, there are more things in heaven and earth Horatio than are dreamt of in your philosophy

oh that's good that's really good so the angel's flesh is more finely drawn or made of spirit because they're not quite like humans they carry heaven's messages shining like fireflies and you hear their wing beats on a still night in ancient days it said they bred with humans like i

said above even with real angels or fictional real angels joaquin had been in santalia on his way home when the fog had rolled in beset by specters and he looked for cover in a shepherd's hut, next to a birch wood, hearing voices in the fog, cries of alarm, anger, and by dawn swoosh of arrows and swords. Afraid, he stayed inside, and when he ventured out, a magnificent figure lay wounded by the spring. He looked away, and the figure disappeared, but that was the closest he ever came to an angel. He says after seeing the angels go to the pole last night, something's definitely happening. A war, maybe. Like the war in heaven

thousands of years ago that no one knows what the outcome was. Hmm. Hmm. He thinks it would be a devastating war if it did happen again, but there's still a bit of hope at the end. That the specters may be swept from the world and they could all start anew he looks up thinking the angels would probably make a fortress

to plan to assault heaven he watches the stars and seraphina asks if he's ever heard of dust which he hasn't he points the sky telling her to look for a troop of angels is crossing. Wow. Amaze. They're all like, wow, what angels? I think it's interesting that they see angels in the constellation of Ophiuchus, which some of you may know as that constellation that's totally fucked up, however you interpreted

your zodiac sign. Not for me, I'm still a Leo, actually. But, Ophiuchus is the serpent bearer and as you all know serpents maybe you don't know maybe you we haven't stressed this enough i don't know serpents are important to this story how even with what i just said with the seraphim angels um seraphim a peccola just kidding uh but even with them that's that's a translation to serpent so the fact that the angels are going through that yeah through the serpent bearer the angel bearer yeah they're gonna go i don't know bear serpents or some shit but not bears um

ruda scotty watches tells seraphina all right gotta go. I'm gonna go with those angels. I'm gonna hitch a ride. See if they're heading towards Asriel. Mwah, darling. Love you, darling. Love you, Seraphina, darling. Mwah. That's how I feel about Ruta Scotty in my head. She's like Fran. Yeah. I could see it. I could really see it. She tries to catch up.

She finds, again, that to her they kind of look like humans, but they're winged. Much taller. Also, very naked, very swole. she finds again that to her they kind of look like humans but they're winged much taller also very naked very swole ruda i think maybe ruda is just a little thirsty also i think she is i mean she's literally chasing a booty call right now to heaven you know yeah she doesn't even know if like that booty call is going to pick up on the other end she's just really banking on like you know old times she's like maybe maybe it's gonna work out for me ruda measures their strength from behind in case she like needs to fight them interesting they aren't

armed but they also seem like all powerful celestial beings so she's like i'm just gonna get my bow ready in case you know just gonna take my chances shoot my shot she speeds up flies alongside them and commands their attention she around, sitting on her pine branch, proud and unafraid, though her heart was beating with the strangeness of it, and her demon fluttered to sit close to the warmth of her body. Each angel being was distinctly an individual, and yet they had more in common with one another than with any human she had seen. What they shared was a shimmeringing darting play of intelligence and

feeling that seemed to sweep over them all simultaneously they were naked but she felt naked in front of their glance it was so piercing and went so deep phrasing ruda ruda still she was unashamed of what she was and she returned their gaze with head held high somebody write this on AO3 I command it Ruta Scotti she's like I'm hot too threesome with the angels I mean it's more than three she's like I heard you like

mating the angels have oh my god the angels have been following a call a mating call Ruta asks is it lord azriel's and they're like i don't know maybe because i'm mating with that dick uh uh she orders them all right well guide me then to lord azriel ruda's 416 she's wiser than any other like of us puny humans but apparently she's basically a baby next to these angels they're

like she doesn't know anything how cute uh she sees the angels again in human form because that's what she expects they'd be more like an architecture actually if she could see their true form but she's not she can't because she's a baby i love love this. It reminds me of in Doctor Who, the TARDIS, the blue box they fly in, Eliana. You know what I'm talking about-ish? Yeah. The big blue box. I've seen it. I've seen pop culture's references.

Okay, cool. You understand the internet? Good. So that box, the only reason it's that blue box, that vehicle, it's supposed to transform. It has something called a chameleon circuit that allows it to like make the eye see what it wants to see so like it could just be like what will blend in in 18th century spain the most you know where we can land and look like just sidewalk trash um and of course it's broken but it also translates things too so it translates languages etc so it makes me think of that so much like there's a

chameleon circuit at play interesting yes i was thinking interestingly a bit of like lovecraftian like ideas because i know that sometimes they're always like the way that they express oh crazy horror that no human mind can understand they They're all like, it looked like non-Euclidean architecture or geometry. And I'm like, okay. Word. Anyway, the angels are beating their wings and fly off. Are they beating off

and flying their wings? Who knows? Ruta Scotty joins them. The light is gone from the night, but there's light that Ruta sees and it's emanating from elsewhere illuminating the angels who you know basically they've got that great eternal golden hour photography lighting we all need it we all deserve it on fleek they're not they're not on instagram okay we need this more than they do she rejoices while she travels with them, feeling the life course through her from earth and plant and animal alike.

We get this line. She delighted in being of the same substance as them, and in knowing that when she died, her flesh would nourish other lives as they had nourished her. Okay. Interesting thought. Ruta's also happy to see Lord Asriel azrael again probably and she flies on for another night the air eventually changes at a certain point and she notes that they moved to a different

world and asks oh how did we do it when when did this happen where's the boundary the angels answer there are invisible gateways to the world that you witches can't see but we angels can ruda of course she's like i'm so smart she memorizes the jagged rock peaks in front of her face knowing she will be able to bring her sisters to this place if she needs to i think ruda is so funny she's just so funny here she's like doesn't understand what a child she seems like to these angels and it's just crazy because she's all like yes i'm controlling them and telling them what to do the angels do not care yeah they're like okay i guess you could come along for the ride and she's all like i know where the window

is got him i fooled those angels and again they're like i do not give a shit about you you are a foolish witch mortal yeah uh ruda just kind of reminds me a little bit of like first book lyra especially so it's mtv cribs they arrive at azrael's fortress mountain range of black rock broken slabs the highest point of structure with battlements beneath the fortress fires and furnaces are lit and ruda hears hammers pounding away and from all around flights of angels and machines and glass cabins are coming toward the fortress zeppelins floating like drones overhead and then we have this final line where ruda's like and and is Lord Asriel there, she said. Yes, he's there, the angels replied.

Then let's fly there to meet him, and you must be my guard of honor. Obediently, they spread their wings and set their course toward the gold-rimmed fortress with the eager witch flying before them. Really good setup, though. This scene closing on Asriel's industrial warfare, the armies of angels and witches and other people

closing in, ready to destroy worlds. Amazing. Very metal. Really a great chapter. Not being able to read every line of Philip's prose here is very hard because it was very beautiful, but everything is just so set right.

Yeah, there's a lot of really great imagery for that last scene for for a lot of like this second chapter that should have been two chapters it should have been three chapters i'm dead true true true true well you guys if you have not read the uh last book and the rest of the subtle, we will ask you to tune out now. We are going to launch into our dust discussion where we spoil the hell out of the Amber Spyglass and out of the rest of The Subtle Knife. I know we have lots to chat about. So duck out now and we will see you next month or stay tuned if you're ready to get spoiled. All right. next month, or stay tuned if you're ready to get spoiled. Alright, so the discussion, and I'm just

going to say, I love how at the beginning of these chapters, you know, this quarrel between Lyra and Will. Yes, they go on a date in the cinema, but also like this it kind of feels already like they're that old couple bickering, and then it ends with this tender moment, especially as Lyra thinks and tells Will about

the big betrayal to roger and it's not really she i feel like she's not just admitting it to will right she's kind of admitting it again to herself and healing once more even though you know she calls it this big betrayal and turns out to philip pullman this is not the big betrayal but whatever he's wrong yeah i i think that it is such a big betrayal like it's it's hard for me to not feel like that's a retcon, you know? And I know Pullman's got a lot of big plans, obviously, with some of the stuff I've discussed connecting like Secret Commonwealth to the Subtle Knife. No spoilers.

But I mean, this is what has Lyra at her most vulnerable. This is she's completely busted down, broken down, doesn't know what to do with her life. She's like, wow, my dad's a supervillain, my mom's a supervillain, and my best friend's dead, and it's pretty much my fault. Not really. You're doing great, babe, but feels like it.

Yeah. She's got a lot going on. She and Will, they both clearly have daddy issues different. Maybe we can go into that another day. Absolutely. You know, it was very hard. I don't know if any of you people could tell,

but all I wanted to do was scream, this is John Perry. It's very obvious that everybody's talking about John Perry. You end the chapter with John Perry, with Will. You start the chapter with Lee looking for John Perry. And no, it's not said, but Joe Parry? Really? That's how creative you got, Pullman? Come on. That line comes back.

It's like a children's book-ish. I know. An ish. He didn't write it as a children's book. Listen. Yeah. He just wrote a book about children. Honestly, I do kind of wonder, like, A, I loved that setup. B, like, I do wonder, who got it? Who got it the first time that they read it as kids?

Because, like, I definitely probably didn't. I don't remember. I don't remember anything from that time. I remember some things. I got it on my first read but that's because i'm an adult so i was just it's just a wee bab it's just if you read those letters it's so obvious yeah but i don't remember if i was just like flying through it or not you know yeah i loved the connection between the not moxie cat i love that will is totally lost between worlds he's accompanied

by that moxie-esque cat and then in the end he does get kerjava so this tabby is really great especially with kids being cornered it just makes it something so much more personal for will's connection with it and i just really loved it yeah i just know, like, same as how, so this is a little, a little dustier, but in Lyra's Oxford, right, we are basically explicitly told that Lyra and birds kind of have, like, this big connection, even though Pan doesn't end up becoming a bird, whatever. But, like, birds protect her and shit, and I guess, like, that's Will and cats. shit and i guess like that's will and cats but also i don't know will's protectiveness over this animal even though like he kind of feels that over other humans depending on who it just feels like it makes me think of like adam from adam and eve in a way oh okay just because animals that's it that's it that's how the furthest that thought goes. Okay. You know, the structure of this episode, I know I talked about it in the top

half, but it was just so chef's kiss. Even in blending that first chapter with Will, reading the letters into Lee, looking for Grumman, looking for Joe Pari, and that broken, angry, bitter, alone group of children with the cat. And then, of course, that

alone and bitter group of children with the cat. And then, of course, that alone and bitter group of children with the specters. It was heartbreaking and perfect. And in a bottle, these two chapters are really perfect together. Even though I keep complaining about that chapter's length, I think it told such a great mini-story. Yeah, they pair together

so well, the way it reflects. Absolutely. And not just the letters from Grumman but like what you were saying of you know what does it mean to be children without parents and like at least Lyra and Will right they're different from the kids in Chittagaze because they

get to leave this world they have a future that they're looking to build like that's so much of what their story is about, right? Like we're going to try and make something of future that's better for everyone else. And at some point, Lyra and Will are like, I don't know if we're actually going to get out of this alive. We went on this journey, but like, they're still like, well, but we can do this.

Yeah, they have to be like the front running orphans in this story. You know, like they have to be like the the world orphan speakers here the strong thematics of those kids left without families all because the philosophers took and took and took and those with power grew more and more powerful and greedy like yeah as real yes he is trying to fight a god a false god he's literally tearing apart the entire worlds and yes angelica and her little brother seem like little fucks but when tulio dies in the next bit it's so sad like this is what this war has brought this is what the magisterium stands for and the pain they create it's not just one

huge devastation it's how a world reacts to the devastation yeah especially because they were trying to do it to a bunch of them and And it's like, this is what the authority wants for everyone, right? Yes. For everyone to be like the adults who have had their souls taken away, or like the children, right? At Bolvangar, right? Who have had their demons

cut away. But at the same time, on the flip side of all that, yes, this is exactly this is part of why Asriel's kind of set up as this heroic figure, side of all that, yes, this is part of why Asriel's kind of set up as this heroic figure, fighting against all that, but it turns out the price wasn't just one child

losing his life and losing his demon, right? It wasn't just Roger. It was this entire world as well. I mean, they kind of started it and opened the door for all of that for themselves. But there's even more devastation brought on them. Like, I don't know how they're going to recover from that.

Like, the end of the book, they say, yeah, we're going to try and do that with all these windows. And, like, we'll try and take care of it as angels. But, like, how far do they really get with that? Yeah. And, yeah, it's, like, very on the nose. It's very meta commentary. It's obviously, like, there's a it's very meta commentary it's obviously like there's a lot of good uh good war stuff in here right it's very uh very much so good war stuff not good

necessarily like well well written well written yeah yeah well explored especially in a fantasy environment for sure there's a ton of foreshadowing about Lee's death in this chapter. Yeah, I was surprised. It's very painful in that second chapter. Not only that, but also just the way it's framed, the journey, the understanding, the lessons that are getting learned. The most obvious, of course, is that line we highlighted earlier from Brutus Scotty. She delighted in being of the same substance as them, and in knowing that when she died, her flesh would nourish other lives as they had nourished her. Honestly, a

great line, Ruta Scotti. She's got a lot of thoughts. She's real optimistic here. I find it interesting that she thinks that this is what's going to happen to her when she dies. Considering we learned that this doesn't actually happen for everyone until Lyra and will like go into the underworld and they're like we did it everyone can go do this now but coming back to lee for a second we see that as

you're saying like through lee he's the prime example but also like we you there's this whole conundrum right that he has with the scrailing dying for his cause and being all jazzed about making himself a martyr. And Lee doesn't think that the Scrailing's cause is worth it. He's like, I don't get it. This guy fucking wanted to die for this. And it starts setting up that that's actually what the cards hold for Lee as well. He's going to die for a cause for someone that he loves and cares about so it's much more grounded he wasn't itching to die but that he didn't want to die necessarily but he made that choice anyway it makes it more meaningful

contrasted with the screlling yeah absolutely it's this whole entire chapter is like very much so this framing around the screlling for lee with that man but also this framing for lee like seraphina discovering this world of suffering and like that they don't have a choice these people have no choice it's framed with seraphina and that line uh that what was it that grumman should have accepted the witch's love that the seal hunter says accepting a witch's love in this represents seraphina giving him the flower later and him accepting that flower and of course another witch queen mentioning the consumption of flesh as planet nourishment it's just very well done with lee finally choosing a side in the end whether fate was going to choose it for him or not. Yeah. And it's like, what?

That was one of the lines, right, from the trailers for His Dark Materials. Like, it's time to choose a side or something like that. And that's what Lee does. But Lee doesn't choose one side of the war. When he chooses the people that he loves, he chooses

Lyra. I think that's what makes it very poignant um but yeah regarding lyra the framing of the war and the seraphina and which is love i you know there's a lot more detail there and i i personally think i think grumman didn't do it no i agree with that i do think i've come to that uh i don't think that these men would gossip about it yeah if he had turned if he hadn't turned actually turned her down it's like a ned stark ashara dane thing for me you know yeah yeah yeah finally coming back to you know this broken world and those thoughts about the Tower of Babel and Chittagaze for the discussion

since we couldn't be like, it's the subtle knife everyone, even though everyone knows it's the fucking subtle knife. Even though everyone knows it's fucking John Perry. Yeah. So the authority slash god figure isn't the one punishing Chittagaze just the universe

for their greed and hunger for things from other places and not growth, but whatever. But anyway, it kind of works, how it's all playing out in keeping with that idea of the hubris of man challenging the gods in a way, because what came about in that tower, right, it's a subtle knife

and the nickname for it is Godkiller? That's what the cliffgats call it? It had a word, Isahater, however the fuck it's pronounced. Yeah, there's a lot more that I'm really, I don't know if it's just like, understanding or thinking about this round when it comes to Chidigaze, and I think the first time I read this book, Subtle Knife felt like a very second book, right? Just like, oh, that was the second book, now here's the finale, and now I'm reading it, and I'm like, oh, god, this is a goldmine.

There's so much good stuff in here, and it all does really tie into Amber so well. Yeah, absolutely. And there's so much that's being foreshadowed for Amber Spyglass in the end of the book that we're seeing here that brings it all together. Well, I'm not going to do a dusty discussion today.

And I'm really not going to spoil anything too much out of the outer books today. I think we've exhausted the Amber Spyglass enough with this because there's just so much to think on here. But I do want to say, I'm just saying, I really think we're going to see Will on the very last Dust book.

I bet it's going to be in the spirit world. You guys mark my fucking words. Interesting. I mean, like, we kind of got hints at it, like with Zephaniah. Yeah. Yes, that's... You guys just gotta imagine. Someday you'll listen to the entire Secret Commonwealth discussion and maybe you will.

Maybe I will. Someday I will. Because I talk about that. It could happen. Yeah. It has something to do with some alethiometer reading. So you'll catch up. All right.

Read the book. It's very good. Eventually. Well, guys, if you have listened thus far, thank you for listening through our discussion. And of course the main episode for chapters five and six of

subtle knife his dark materials airmail paper and lighted flyers and of course keep up with us and whenever those episodes come out by following us on social media you can find us at girls gone canon on twitter c-a-n-o-n or at girlson at gmail.com. And make sure that you check us out over at patreon.com slash girlsgonecanon if you're able to. We do put out episodes every other month about His Dark Materials or other pop culture things. And every other other month about A Song of Ice and Fire. $5 and up gets you access to special patron-only episodes. You can find us on many other podcast platforms you can find us on Apple Podcasts

Google Play, Spotify, Acast Stitcher, and of course Podbean where these are all hosted yes as always I've been one of your hosts, Chloe and I've been another one of your hosts, Eliana thanks guys